#wot a memory of light

[tiredmoonslut]

Forever, forever weeping for Egwene al'Vere, the girl who wanted only to learn. Forever weeping for Egwene al'Vere, the girl who snarled at every limitation and ground them beneath her heel. Forever weeping for Egwene al'Vere, the girl selected because they thought she'd be easy to control. Forever weeping for Egwene al'Vere, the woman none of them expected her to be. Weeping for Egwene al'Vere, Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, the Amyrlin Seat---who held the Pattern itself together with her bare, dying hands. Tai'shar Manetheren, tai'shar Aes Sedai.

[butterflydm]

I was skimming the books for fic-research reasons and just had to be baffled all over again at how the Seanchan invasion gets treated CoT-onward. The Kin were the spine of the Wise Women of Ebou Dar, who are, like THE people who are respected by everyone in the city. They all had to try to flee the area because of the Seanchan and any who didn't successfully flee but were Kin (and thus could channel) would have been instantly enslaved by the Seanchan. And yet we have that fucking weirdness in Mat's (fucking weird overall) first chapter in A Memory of Light where the Ebou Dari people are all "lol, why would a brutal invasion bother us in the slightest; we're too super-casual for an invasion to bother us".

I mean, that's all tied into the logistics problems that plagued all things Seanchan-related in the later books (they have infinite soldiers and infinite food & supplies and generally don't have to abide by the economics & logistics that Rand's side is required to follow) but it just really stood out to me because I was reading about how respected the Wise Women are (even in places like the Rahad) -- but the Seanchan's coming would have completely gutted them as a society and that should have an impact on how the Ebou Dari feel about the Seanchan. And it just ties into my overall feeling that Jordan stopped treating the Seanchan realistically starting in CoT and then Sanderson continued the trend when he took over the writing of the books.

But, yeah, one of the big things that I hope for from the prime show is that the Seanchan get treated with narrative consistency and we don't get an abrupt 180 on how the narrative treats them at the two-thirds point. Because what the Ebou Dari should be feeling (and what they were feeling in Winter's Heart!) is a lot of fear and paranoia and the desire to rebel, because the Seanchan are Always Watching and will Randomly Steal and Enslave People for reasons that the non-Seanchan people are not going to understand!

I am really curious about how much Seanchan Presence we're going to have in s3, because s2 made some bold choices in where it went with the Seanchan storyline and I am intensely curious about what kind of follow-up we'll have in s3. I've said a lot in the past that Tuon needs to be introduced sooner than she was in the books (Jordan waited way too late to introduce her! He should also have introduced her while she was still in Seanchan, imo, so that we actually could have seen her interacting with the rest of the Imperial family so that we would have a baseline of Seanchan Imperial Behavior to potentially contrast her against later -- but Tuon feels like another case where Jordan valued the surprise of the wham! line over giving a lot of detail and background) and I would absolutely be a fan of her being introduced in s3.

[onaperduamedee]

Thinking again about how the gender essentialism in WoT is aggravating not because there is gender essentialism in magic because that's the entire premise of the books but because RJ set to explore that particular premise without fully understanding how gender essentialism and patriarchy affects women differently that it does men. That's how you get Berelain's writing, the internal monologues of Nynaeve in tel'aran'rhiod, groups of women in power often written as petty squabbling fools, practically all the powerful female leaders at the start of the series will be depowered and humiliated by the end, the Aiel warriors being women presented as something foreign...

In RJ world, men are naturally stronger than women in the OP: this rule isn't subverted and permeates every aspect of his worldbuilding. There's a reason only the boys are ta'veren, that Mat ends up taking control of the armies over Elayne, that Perrin is naturally better at tel'aran'rhiod than Egwene, that Nynaeve the strongest channeler we've seen in a thousand years becomes a glorified battery for Rand in the end.

In a way, it's a fascinating psychological phenomenon that the entire premise of his fictional world is based on gender essentialism yet he doubled down on several core elements of gender essentialism instead of subverting them.

When I discuss gender essentialism in his work I do it so because he made it "gender essentialism: the fantasy edition", so while his women challenge gender essentialism in some ways, it's entirely legitimate to question why he didn't expand the subversion in other aspects of his world.

[flo-n-flon]

"While it's fresh. I need everyone to tell me what they saw and heard, so that I can write it down. There will never be a better time."

Of all the accounts Loial gathered in Thakan'dar that day, the Aes Sedai's proved the most difficult to acquire. Those who remained were elusive, bustling around the Healing tents and churned fields. Nynaeve Sedai and her helpers, paying no heed to the fragility of Humans, were bringing back from the brink of death so many that a constant flow of barely healed soldiers and channelers shuffled toward the Travelling grounds, freeing much-needed beds inside the tents.

Moiraine Sedai would not answer his inquiries about the events at Shayol Ghul either, intent as she was on the care of a drawn, but gently chiding Tairen woman.

[toastandjamie]

Okay giant spoilers for the ending of Wheel of Time

So like- what do you guys think the limit of Rand’s new ability is? He can’t channel anymore but in its place is like- some strange ability to warp the pattern. We see that he can will his pipe lit but what wise do you think he can do? Do you think he can manipulate minor things like his pipe, something that doesn’t have a large effect on the pattern as a whole or do you think he can do major things like will a person to die. Now this isn’t a discussion of whether or not he’d actually do something like that just a theoretical discussion on what exactly the ability he received was and what it can do.

[wot-tidbits]

[cairhienin]

bonus:

[orbit-of-eternity]

Lanfear now Cyndane: I'm a changed woman

Everyone:

[cozcat]

One thing I am desperately hoping to see in season 3 of Wheel of Time is the girls going back to the White Tower, and a big part of this is to ensure Egwene's link to it is cemented before she becomes Amyrlin. I also desperately want her to have done her Accepted test, and I would like to see it. So, a while back, @fuel-prices and I had a big conversation about this, and this is where I've landed on the three arches. Full spoilers ahead.

Egwene is called to her test. Siuan may be there, or we may introduce Anaiya onscreen, or we may see Lelaine - as Sheriam isn't in season 3. But that's not the important part. She goes into the arches, ter'angreal or no ter'angreal: I could see Egwene being a Dreamer being an altering factor itself.

Be steadfast.

The first test: she wakes up somewhere familiar, and not. The Mountains of Mist are home, but the city around her is not. An attack is coming, and coming again, and they have been abandoned - by other cities, by the White Tower; all they have to protect their land, their children, is their own bodies. And Egwene - Eldrene - knows what she must do. All the power she can summon, and then some, and she must, and she will - but she cannot, because the way back will come but once.

(In this, we lean into the 1x03 focus on Egwene at Eldrene's death, and fully commit to her being a reincarnation of Eldrene. We can foreshadow her becoming Amyrlin elsewhere - let's foreshadow her death some more!)

The second test: horrors, and to the horrors that await her in the present. She is in the Two Rivers - maybe Wisdom, after Nynaeve's death; maybe not. "The Trollocs are coming again, and the Whitecloaks have left us." Maybe she sees her parents, other characters we know; maybe she sees Rand, Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve. Perhaps Perrin, as it leans into foreshadowing. But the way back will come but once, and she cannot save the ones she loves from the Whitecloaks.

(There is precedent for this. Egwene does dream of a bunch of foreshadowing of the Battle of the Two Rivers - this is just another way to do it. And we did consider the Seanchan here, but it feels, well, too obvious - why not go for a less expected test, rather than the obvious, just to heighten how much Egwene being a Dreamer is affecting it?)

The third test: horrors, and horrors again, and in for the final set of them. But horrors do not await. Instead, a group of tanned women, their eyes looking older than their faces, in algode shirts and skirts, in a red sea of sand. "Egwene, you will come to us, and you will know when that must be, just as you know now from where you will leave." And all Egwene can do now is wait, because this is all the third arch will be. The way back comes, and Egwene is waiting for it, staring at the spot she knows now that it will appear; she walks out of the third arch with her head held high and her back straight.

And so, Egwene knows she needs to go. She eventually learns to Travel using Tel'aran'rhiod - why not use it now, so she uses it to travel to the Wise Ones, and use it again later, when she decides to leave them to travel to Salidar? And, her traumas are her own, so no sense to mention it. (Plus, the secrecy from Nynaeve and Elayne will help divide them further emotionally.) Siuan will find a way to get Nynaeve and Elayne out of the Tower and hunting Black Ajah for sport - she'll send Egwene after them when she comes, but Egwene is gone, and cannot be sent.

I found that on rereading it, Egwene's test all revolves around Rand, and Egwene being unable to protect him - which is odd if not entirely pointless to do onscreen, because, at the end of season 2, she protected him. Also, a lot of her test is stuff we've seen elsewhere in the show. We've seen Nynaeve lose her child. We've seen Rand have the provincial life with Egwene and their daughter, Joiya. We've foreshadowed Egwene becoming Amyrlin and can do that in so many other ways. We've seen the Accepted test go wrong. We don't need those as repeat beats, so why not something else entirely?

And so, this is something else entirely.

[highladyluck]

Re: Rand going off at the end:

Specifically the way he talks about the polycule feel weird and OOC to me. Getting stuck on which member of the polycule to ‘visit’ and then deciding he loves them all equally, like he hadn’t already come to that conclusion a while ago? Plus no acknowledgement that he’d be having children in the same thought as the polycule.

I’m probably influenced by the knowledge that RJ wrote that ending a long long time ago and Sanderson had to apply it faithfully, but I think even without assuming that bit was written earlier, it would be jarring.

Elayne made her choice about having Rand’s kids without his involvement, but she did that for safety reasons pre-TG and ‘assuming Rand would be dead’ reasons post-TG. Knowing he’s out there and not actually dead and instead joyriding around in disguise would probably be just a little bit irksome. She’s human and perfectly capable of hypocrisy. (Elayne has also done a joyride to avoid her responsibilities, but her joyride was technically to stop climate change, and it’s just a coincidence that she got to run away to the circus.)

I do think that there are good reasons for Rand to go ‘find himself’ post-TG rather than attempting to immediately fulfill his remaining obligations to people. He doesn’t have chronic pain anymore and he doesn’t hear voices anymore and he doesn’t have an impossible high-stakes task that he can’t escape anymore, but he had them before, and those thought patterns and coping mechanisms don’t just stop once they aren’t useful anymore, and also he just switched bodies. Like. He needs therapy even if you think he actually resolved all his past issues (Zen!Rand weirds me out, personally.) He genuinely does need to go work on himself.

But I think the cognitive dissonance comes from the ‘woooo permanent vacation!’ energy of the ending, when everyone else has new burdens and messes to clean up. Rand didn’t do it alone, everybody else should get a break too! And he does deserve the break, but to me it should be a break like the Israelites had after getting out of Egypt: hang out getting your basic needs met long enough to have a version of yourself that doesn’t remember the trauma of your previous generation. For them it took 40 years. I don’t know that it’ll take Rand that long, he’s one person, not a group. But it’s ok if it takes a while. I don’t want unreconstructed Rand raising kids any more than he does.

The thing that bothers me is that the deeper meaning of ‘go lose yourself in the metaphorical desert for a while’ isn’t even hinted at in the tone of the text. It feels superficial and very flippant. Maybe that giddiness/flippancy is a part of Rand’s trauma response- he hasn’t been allowed to be flippant or blow off anything for years- but it isn’t presented as that at all. I feel like I need to do intellectual backflips to make it all vibe with the rest of the series.

[craanbery]

[tiredmoonslut]

I have finished A Memory of Light.

Please respect my privacy at this time.

[butterflydm]

The Queen of Attolia (plus some WoT comparisons)

Haha, it's been a few months but I got my chance to read the next book in the Queen's Thief series and it was so good! I am going to have two sections in this review -- my overall thoughts and then some specific thoughts that are mostly for @markantonys due to the series being her recommendation and I have a lot of thoughts about the comparisons between the Queen of Attolia x Eugenides and Mat Cauthon x Fortuona, because you can really do a point by point comparison, though I don't think it was intentional -- I think that Megan Whalen Turner and Robert Jordan were both going for the same idea but Turner was, imo, wildly more successful than Jordan at it.

But first, thoughts that don't particularly relate to The Wheel of Time:

We open with a tense cat and mouse chase between The Thief and the Queen's guardmen and that is really the heart of this book when it comes down to it -- a cat and mouse game between two extremely complicated people, and how they have to navigate in the world that they share.

Turner is really good at writing these fun action scenes where you're very much in the PoV of the character.

The (apparent) foundation that is laid here (that later gets overturned because Gen got to me again and he was once again acting on personal information that he kept from me for the majority of the book, lol, love him for it) - is very much beginning as enemies who have respect for each other's skills. At this point in the book, I knew that they would end up married due to spoilers and I know that it's considered a good romance, so I was really looking forward to seeing the journey, especially since I did get spoiled about the huge upcoming traumatic event.

But we start from this strong narrative place where they are aware of each other and have respect for each other but they belong to two separate counties that have some political tensions and they are both important parts of those countries and can't set that aside.

Because of how bold Gen is, Attolia has been backed into a corner by his actions and we actually see this affirmed by Gen's cousin (the Queen of Eddis) and her thoughts on the matter -- she is aware that Gen going into Attolia's country to spy on her is a dangerous thing for him to do.

And then the cutting off of his hand. This is brutal, and it feels brutal, and then we also get these hints of Attolia's reaction afterwards (that we get into more later) but especially her reaction when he begs her not to hurt him anymore and you can really see her feel the impact of what she did. She doesn't allow herself to show her remorse but even this early on, we're getting hints of it as readers.

Then when Gen goes home, we actually see that the Queen of Eddis also maintains a mask in public, just like Attolia does, so we see another hint here that Gen understands that kind of masking. Eddis looks just as cold and impenetrable to Attolia's guards who return Gen to her, as Attolia looks to everyone else.

I really appreciated how long the recovery time was after the loss of Gen's hand and how much time we spent with him to feel him get used to the changes (and how economically Turner is able to pass that time). We get these tiny looks at Attolia as well, and her difficultly sleeping at night, which we expand on later.

Then we get the return of the Magus from Sounis! It was really nice to see him again, dropping in to visit Gen, but he's also here to give us that continuation of the division between personal and political -- as a person who genuinely likes Gen, the Magus was upset about what Attolia did to him, but as the advisor to the king of Sounis, he knew that they would be able to use Eddis's reaction to Attolia's act on the political stage.

But what a way to learn that the two countries are at war!

It takes some time for Gen to really believe that Eddis went to war over him, and we see him processing that over the course of the book as well, and they talk about it more. I do think that Gen does not always realize how deeply other people care about him.

Turner really is so good at giving us these pieces of information that reframe the earlier story -- now we know that during all those snippets of Attolia that we had earlier, she was also dealing with realizing that her actions with Gen led to the war that she's currently embroiled in.

The progression of the war was really well done (again, Turner is very economical with her narrative here), with what details she chooses to focus in on, and we see that Gen, even though he has gained more of an ability to have that cold and impassive mask like Attolia has, still does things like make sure that no one is on the ships that he's destroying, because he doesn't like getting people killed.

Turner also does a really good job showing how destabilizing the war is to all three countries involved, and how the war is hurting everything.

We take a little mythology story break here in the narrative, which was a fun story about love and choice, both of which are very relevant. This story definitely does end up applying pretty heavily to Gen and Attolia in the themes, and I like the style that Turner tells these stories.

I love how perceptive Gen is once he's been apprised of the situation and we get to see the thought process that leads to him blaming the emperor's ambassador more for the loss of his hand than he does Attolia herself, because he sees that ambassador understood that seeing Gen maimed and returned to Eddis would be more like to spark a war than just killing him would, and a war is exactly what he needs in order to try to justify getting his troops onto Attolia's land. All the politics here are pretty complex but I feel like the book does a good job explaining the reasoning.

And this is also the point where it's really confirmed that Attolia knows that the ambassador is underestimating her, and that she also understands a lot of the things that he thinks that he's pulling over on her. But because of the fragile position that she's in, she needs to entertain the ambassador's advice and his attempts to sidle in on her country.

Quote about Gen: "It was like him that if he had to have a thing, to have the fanciest thing of its kind."

I really like all this about the cost of war; the price of war; and why this outside party has been trying to urge war on the three countries.

We also get Eddis admitting to Gen that she thinks that she could have possibly controlled herself and not started a war if he had only been killed, rather than treated in a way that she finds so insulting, and that it made her so angry that she made a choice that had now brought a lot of damage to their own country that she wishes could be avoided. And Gen can see, basically, that the ambassador of Medes is the one who put both Eddis and Attolia in this trap, and he was used as the tool to start this war.

We really move into Attolia's PoV and we get the story of the broken amphora (she thought about it when she saw Gen after she'd had his hand cut off) -- it was, essentially, the moment that marked when her life changed and she couldn't be a young girl anymore.

This really is a heartbreaking story -- how after her brothers died and she was the heir, her father essentially sold her off to be married, and her fiance was actively plotting against her father and how to suck her country dry for his own benefit after they were married. And how she kept herself quiet and small and just listened, but then poisoned him at their wedding feast, also having her captain of the guard kill the next man who tried to force her to marry him. We also see here that she only trusts loyalty that she can buy in gold (because every other kind of loyalty failed her).

Then we finally get the big reunion! This scene is so tense, with both Attolia and Gen wearing these cold masks (we later realize that Gen has pretty much directly modeled his mask on Attolia's) and we get this private negotiation that is only for the two of them. And this moment when it is literally just them, together on a boat, with no one else to interrupt them... just exquisitely done.

It's been implied before, but this is where we get our confirmation that Attolia has been just as haunted by Gen this entire book as he's been haunted by her. They've been separated for most of the book but constantly haunted by each other. I gotta share the quote:

"He was too young to have bones that ached. No matter what he thought of himself, he was hardly more than a boy. A boy without one hand. She reached up to push the wet hair out of her face, wondering when she had sunk so low that she had begun torturing boys. It was a question she had asked herself night after night, lying awake in her bed or sitting in a chair by the window watching the stars slowly move across the sky."

We've been seeing her do those things the entire book, but this is the first moment when we're told what she was thinking about in those moments.

We also get our Big Revelation here that Gen has had feelings for Attolia since before the events of The Thief! How does he hide these things from us so well! Gen! We learn here (and we get even more detail later) that he's been feeling drawn to her for literal years. That part of the reason that he made those trips that she thought were mockery was because he wanted to be close to her and get a look at her and see if she really was the monster that their spies reported that she was, or if she was just a woman who was being forced to make difficult, maybe impossible choices.

And then we get our story reversal where Attolia gets 'rescued' by the ambassador and his people, and we get to see how she behaves in these circumstances where she doesn't believe that she can trust Gen (sure, he said he loves her, but she cut his hand off! And he's a known liar! how can she trust him?) vs this dude that she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that she absolutely cannot trust.

The moment when she tells her handmaidens not to put on her golden bee earrings, I knew exactly what she'd done, especially when we got Gen's reaction. The writing doesn't have to tell us in the moment what's occurring (that she put on the earrings that he left for her one time and that she said she would only wear if she'd decided to marry him) for us to know, and I love that. This coded sign that only he will understand.

It's the most unique and fascinating marriage proposal I've ever read. Well done. Haha, and I did guess that the gray-haired man that he fought so well with was his father. <3

Love the moment when we see him process that marrying the Queen of Attolia is going to mean... that he'll be the King of Attolia. He just wanted to marry her because he liked her! <3 <3

And everything after that was just so delightful. Working together for the double-cross and then the process of Eddis and Attolia working out the treaty and Eddis trying to convince Gen that they can have the treaty without the marriage, and his rejection of that, and then essentially testing Attolia with that offer as well.

I also really like one of the moments when Attolia realizes that she can trust Gen, which is when Eddis tells her that of course Gen also lies to her. Constantly. And I feel like that reframed a lot of her interactions with Gen for Attolia. Realizing that Gen wasn't being maliciously deceitful towards her; he's just Like That With Everyone. Plus, I can't forget the moment when, after the battle is won, Attolia and Eddis return to where Gen is being held and Attolia believes for a moment that he's been poisoned as a parting shot by the Medes ambassador and we can literally watch as her heart completely shatters and she is completely undone and devastated in her head and even shaken where people can see her. It's beautifully written.

And we get the moment with the gods (who are very real in this series but very carefully choose how they interfere) and it's just as well done as it was in the first book. The windows in the palace shattering as the goddess responds to Gen's sacrifice! And basically laying out to him that his suffering was required to reach this ending and would he trade it back if he could -- if it meant that Attolia would have been forced to make that deal with the Medes ambassador. And Gen would rather have Attolia in his life and wanting to marry him than have his hand back.

Just that whole final section that leads up to the ending of the book, with Attolia really being able to believe Gen when he says that he loves her... it's so good. How the narrative (and Eddis and Gen) are able to tease out Attolia's feelings for Gen, and how we end on that final quiet moment between the two of them. Really powerful ending.

It's a really good book and it's a really good romance. Gen and Attolia are both fantastic characters and even with all the twists and turns and revelations, their relationship felt incredibly captivating and believable. I really believe that Gen wants to break through Attolia's walls and, just as important, I feel like there's a person on the other side of those walls who is worth being loyal to and loving. You understand why Gen wants to be Attolia's husband, even after she ordered his hand cut off, which is very impressive storytelling.

Hopefully I'll get the chance to read the The King of Attolia soonish, and not in, like, four months.

*

And now onto the Wheel of Time/Mat & Tuon comparison section of the review for @markantonys 💖

It really does feel like a point-by-point improvement on Mat & Tuon, though I suspected unintentionally (it looks like this book came out 3 years before CoT).

Starting with the characters: wow, Attolia really is so much the person that I would have wanted Tuon to be. And she feels like the person that Jordan wanted readers to believe that Tuon was. Every place where I was going through my WoT reread and going "footage not found!" about something the narrative tried to claim about Tuon is something where the footage is very much found for Attolia. While Tuon's potentially heartbreaking backstory really is just backstory and ends up have zero impact on her active storyline, Attolia's tragic backstory is the entire spine of what her character is going through and what Gen can help her with.

We get to see and really experience Attolia's context, which is not something that we got with Tuon. Jordan makes an attempt, I guess, with Karade's sob story about Tuon and the doll, but he made the bizarre choice to frame this story in Karade's PoV (Tuon's slave), not from Tuon's PoV. For whatever reason, Jordan always insisted on making Tuon the most insufferably smug person in the world in her own PoVs.

With Attolia, we get those breaks in her mask that I kept desperately wanting us to get with Tuon but we never did. Again, this is mostly only for the reader, not even for Gen -- the reader gets to see behind Attolia's mask. And so Attolia is captivating and fascinating and I understand why she felt like she had to do these horrible things.

With Attolia, we actually get her being removed from her power base and feeling helpless, which Jordan never had the guts to do with Tuon (when Mat kidnaps Tuon, he lets her take her slave along with her, and then some of his allies decide to support Tuon over him despite having zero narrative or character-based reason to do so), which means that when Attolia regains her power, it has a much bigger impact on the narrative, while it felt like Tuon never really lost hers. Attolia and Gen both manage to be scrappy underdogs, in their own way, and that's something that Tuon never was.

Both Attolia and Tuon commit horrific acts, but while we see Attolia's remorse and how it torments her, Tuon always seems to shrug off the horrible shit that she does. It doesn't ever affect her emotionally and she never seems to think past it after it's done. She is a character without remorse or reflection (I think she vaguely thinks that it's a shame one time when she's pondering how she will break Mat's spirit but that's about it). And Attolia has those two qualities in spades. Attolia feels like a real woman to me in a way that Tuon never did. We see the brave face that she puts on, we see her regret and remorse, we see her loneliness, we see her jealousy over the Queen of Eddis, who is able to trust the members of her court in a way that Attolia has never felt she could trust her own. Tuon just feels really shallow in comparison to Attolia.

Even in the first cat and mouse scene with Attolia and Gen in this book, you can see the push and pull and the narrative equality of the characters. Gen has been in and out of four different strongholds of hers, and she feels that he's pretty much taunting her with his abilities. There's a mutual respect for the other person which was one of the big things that was missing for me with Mat and Tuon. In her final PoV in KoD, we learn that she has not had an ounce of respect for him during this entire journey -- it's not until she sees how the Band respects him that she considers whether or not there may be more to him than just being a pretty and dumb sextoy. And the big problem with that is that was the period when the 'romance' was being developed. During the time when she didn't have any respect for him as a person. And that makes it very difficult to find their relationship compelling, even apart from the fact that I found Mat himself profoundly unlikable in CoT & KoD.

Now, Mat being a terrible person (in CoT & KoD) and Tuon being a terrible person (always and forever) are not things that would stop me from shipping them in general. I am capable of finding Awful4Awful pairings compelling (like Louis and Lestat from Interview with the Vampire). They don't have to be good people, but there has to be something in the relationship that grabs onto me at any level, and that's where Mat and Tuon failed.

We can see in Attolia's thoughts that she envies the relationship that Gen has with the Queen of Eddis -- she envies that loyalty and wishes she could have something like that of her own. That sort of envy was also missing from CoT & KoD (I am going to mention, briefly, that some of these elements were present in the Mat & Tuon relationship in AMoL but at that point, it was just too late for me to give a shit about their relationship, because CoT & KoD thoroughly killed any interest that I had in them). Whether because of his own personal kinks or because of the plans that Jordan had for the Outriggers, Jordan made Tuon too much of an island; too much of an wall. The way he wrote her made me feel like nothing Mat could do would ever really matter to her in any way; that she was content to use him up and then throw him out and that's just not my thing. It may have been Jordan's kink but it is not mine.

So I definitely understand @markantonys's point about this feeling like a well-written version of Mat and Tuon! It really does feel like this is the sort of relationship that Jordan wanted to write with Mat and Tuon but didn't have the skill at romance writing to pull off. Something like Mat and Tuon is Hard Mode Romance and Jordan wasn't even always good at Easy Mode Romance.

Two of the key elements that really makes Attolia and Gen work for me is just getting to sit and exist in Attolia's emotional reactions to the wrong that she has done to Gen; and Gen acknowledging and processing the harm that she'd done. And both of those things were desperately needed with Mat and Tuon, both as characters and as a romance.

A major major part of why Mat and Tuon failed for me is because I didn't feel like Mat was actually reacting to her realistically for the vast majority of their page time together; she threatens to invade a city and he laughs it off, she assaults his companions that he freed from slavery and he thinks it's hot?!?, she talks about how she likes to torture women and he ignores it.

If Tuon had cut off Mat's hand, the way that Attolia cut off Gen's, it feels like Jordan would have just had Mat shrug it off and then buy her a puppy as a reward or something as his response. Here, we get Gen begging Attolia "please don't hurt me again" after she cuts off his hand and then we have months of separation and recovery and processing before the narrative takes him anywhere near her again. And Attolia is forced to reckon with what she did, first by being haunted by the memories of him crying from the pain and loss, and then she has to face it directly by seeing his stump, seeing the pain that he's still in (because of her). She has to admit (not just to herself but to him) the damage that she did before they can move forward together. This is something that Tuon never shows herself capable of on any level. Tuon is never allowed to grow as a person the way that Attolia is, or to be vulnerable with the audience or with Mat.

I definitely still really felt the Mat-Gen comparison in this book too. Lots of places, but there's a great moment in the meadow with him, Eddis, and the Magus, where Eddis explains that Gen has deliberately made people believe that he can't fight but he also still gets miffed sometimes if people fall for his carefully constructed facade.

And the moment when Gen tells Eddis that he plans to steal the Queen of Attolia. It really feels, again, like this is the sort of vibe that Jordan wanted us to believe existed between Mat and Tuon: "She may be a fiend from hell to make me feel this way but even if I've got to hate myself for the rest of my life, this is what I want. I dream about her at night." This intense draw and this pull that he feels towards her. Jordan appears to want us to believe that Mat feels this kind of draw towards Tuon at the end of KoD but has not created any kind of foundation in Mat's characterization as to why.

We also got the long separation between Attolia and Gen where they are haunting each other with their absence. Attolia and Gen just get the time that is needed to develop this relationship in a way that's believable. Time in the story, not page time. This book is shorter than CoT & KoD, and probably shorter than if you made a "Mat and Tuon" novella out of their scenes in those books. It's the actual 'in world' time that matters, that gives Attolia and Gen time to think about each other and miss each other in a genuine way.

For another comparison -- Gen 'steals' Attolia to marry her like Mat kidnaps Tuon, but the context is so incredibly different on every level. Mat gets, essentially, tricked into kidnapping Tuon by the 'finn (it never would have happened if he hadn't heard that prophecy) while Gen acts with intention the whole way through. Technically, in both cases, Gen and Mat are 'saving' Attolia and Tuon by kidnapping them, but we feel the weight of it with Gen and Attolia in a way that we don't with Mat and Tuon. And a lot of that is because the bulk of Gen and Attolia's build-up happens before the kidnapping, during the times when they're separated and haunted by each other. So once the kidnapping happens, it's quick-paced and moves the plot forward rather than, you know, just fucking around with a circus for a month.

We also know that Attolia has complicated feelings about Gen already. I talked about this with @markantonys but that really is something that needed to happen with Tuon so much sooner than it does in the books (there are two big Mat & Tuon scenes in AMoL that desperately needed to happen back in CoT, imo -- Tuon trusting that Mat isn't trying to kill her; and Tuon going wild trying to protect Mat in the command tent).

Attolia and Gen also genuinely have things that they can each offer the other person, while with Mat and Tuon, none of the things that Tuon offers are things that Mat actually wants (slaves bowing to him; being dressed up like one of the Blood; being formal at all times - these are things that some of Mat's fans want for him, but not things he wants for himself) and she just feels like this ravenous black hole that constantly takes and takes and takes and gives back nothing of value. When Gen is startled at the realization that marrying the Queen of Attolia makes him the King and he'll have to actually be a king, it's this incredibly sweet moment, because it illustrates so clearly that he wants Attolia for herself and not her country. When Mat reacts against the idea that marrying Tuon makes him royalty, it just kinda makes him look dumb, because we've been given nothing of value in Tuon herself as a person, and no reason for Mat to care about her.

With Tuon, Mat talks about how she's better than other nobles, but nothing she actually does on the page is better than any other Seanchan noble. It's all 'footage not found'. By contrast, every single positive thing that Gen says about Attolia is backed up by the text and we even get shown additional positive qualities that no one needs to talk about because it's right there in the text.

With Tuon, it feels like Mat is attempting to gaslight me (and himself?) into believing that an interesting character exists there despite all the evidence against it, while Attolia simply is a compelling character based on what happens on the page.

That fact that there are so many raw similarities between the two pairings, but my reaction to them are so different really does illustrate the importance of execution, imo. Attolia and Gen's romance manages to travel so much further than Mat and Tuon's, while also being considerably more economical with how many pages it took to get us there.

The point-by-point comparison (aka WoT's failure of execution):

Tuon's interior life is poorly illustrated in comparison to Attolia's; because she starts off as an even worse person than Attolia but so much less character work is done on her than on Attolia, who is haunted this entire book by how she has "sunk so low as to torture boys" (on that note, Turner's choice to make Gen the younger and more openly vulnerable one really works here).

Seeing that Attolia's handmaidens are genuinely affectionate and protective of her at the end of this book is so incredibly touching, because she had no expectation of their loyalty (she believes in the loyalty of gold, and gold alone, for the most part). Tuon, otoh, has slaves that she expects to be subservient and loyal unto death, so her slaves' affection for her (that was trained into them) is something that completely fails to move me. This difference in the expectations of the character also makes a huge difference in how their PoVs come off -- Attolia's walls are due to her internal vulnerability and we get to see that vulnerability in her PoVs; while Tuon comes across as full of herself and incredibly arrogant, taking everyone around her for granted.

We're told that Tuon is smart and perceptive but rarely get any evidence; while Turner shows us Attolia's intelligence and how she sees a lot more than people like the Medes ambassador believe that she does. We get to see Attolia's intelligence in how she tricks the Medes ambassador into believing that she's so much less perceptive and intelligent than she truly is. This is another place where Jordan's unwillingness to ever place Tuon into a genuinely vulnerable position really hurt the character. Turner wasn't afraid to make Attolia the underdog and knew that it wouldn't undermine her as a character, it would strengthen her, because we would get to see who she was in adversity. The set-up of Crossroads of Twilight should have led to us seeing Tuon in adversity but Jordan was allergic to allowing her to be truly vulnerable, and gave her people to hide behind (Selucia & Setalle Anan) the entire time.

Mat as an agent of chaos is wildly downplayed in comparison to Gen as an agent of chaos. The Seanchan end up getting spared the chaos that the end of the Age brought to pretty much every other society, even though Mat seems clearly positioned to bring their society crashing down even as late as Winter's Heart. Gen's actions, otoh, are constantly throwing other people's plans off.

Mat does not behave realistically to the horrible things that Tuon says and does -- with Gen, even though we find out towards the last third of the book that he was already in love with Attolia before the book begins, we still get his raw reactions to her doing things that hurt him. He has nightmares after she orders his hand cut off, his pained begging of her not to hurt him again, and how he develops his own mask of impassiveness that is modeled on her own. Gen also never throws away his moral code in order to try to force himself to be at peace with the relationship -- he grows and changes as a character as a result of his trauma, but he stays himself at the core.

Something else that Jordan could have used more in the books that would have helped develop an understanding of why Mat believes that something exists beyond Tuon's 'cold Empress mask' would have been to make the comparison between Rand's mask and Tuon's mask more clear in the narrative. Because there's too much separation in time between Rand and Mat's interactions with Mat and Tuon's interactions. In this book, seeing that Eddis also needs to put up a queenly mask of not caring about Gen at first (in front of the Attolian guards when they return him to her after his hand has been cut off) helps illustrate why Attolia needs the mask that she uses -- Eddis doesn't trust the Attolians, but Attolia feels like she can trust absolutely no one, and so she always needs the mask and feels like she can never take it off. That's compelling! It could have been compelling in Tuon too, if it had been written better.

On that note: Turner personalizes the damage that Attolia's cold mask and her ruthless defense of herself/her country is doing by having her hurt Gen directly, and that being something that she struggles with over the course of the book. With WoT, Jordan basically did everything he could to hide away the damage that Tuon/the Seanchan were doing from Mat in order to try to justify why he could ~fall in love~ with her (was it intentional? to set their relationship up for a fall later in the Outriggers? we'll never know) without ever actually changing Tuon/the Seanchan for the better, which also meant giving Tuon no reason to have any internal struggles over the choices that she's made.

Gen and Attolia get another thing that Mat and Tuon desperately needed but that Jordan refused to give them: privacy. They negotiate getting married (after Gen has kidnapped Attolia in a much more narratively satisfying kidnapping than Mat and Tuon's!) in privacy, just between the two of them; when we get the conversation about their feelings at the end, again it happens in private. That makes a huge difference. Jordan being unwilling to ever actually yank Tuon away from her full power base and her slaves was a huge hindrance to ever allowing her to be vulnerable. And I do chalk this up to unwillingness and not failures due to plot set-up because there is no good reason to have Selucia tag along on the kidnapping and then it's even more bizarre in CoT & KoD, when the character of Setalle Anan goes from being fond of Mat to all of a sudden acting like he's the worst person in the world and she must protect poor helpless baby girl Tuon from him.

Both Attolia and Tuon get tricked by their respective love interests about who they are as a person because of the facade that they put up, but Attolia still has respect for Gen and his skills, even as she doubts his character, and it is Gen's own actions that show her who he really is and make her believe in him; while with Tuon and Mat, she spends over a month with him and still refuses to look past his surface until she literally has her face rubbed into it by seeing the Band's reactions to him. This difference is a key one in making Attolia's failure to see Gen as a failure due to the protective walls that she has up; while Tuon's failure comes across as her just not being very perceptive or intelligent. And the fact that we don't get the moment when Tuon begins to have even the faintest shred of respect for Mat until the end of Knife of Dreams just meant that I felt even more like all the pages time that Jordan spent on the two of them in CoT & KoD was a complete waste of my time.

We got to have genuine reactions from all of Gen's loved ones about the relationship! This is a huge place where, I guess, Sanderson is the one who failed for a change instead of Jordan because wtf was Perrin's "lol you married now bro? haha" reaction to Mat being married to a slaver? Though Jordan also does this to a certain extent with Thom, who we are supposed to believe is in love with Moiraine, and yet who never calls Mat out on courting a woman who would enslave and torture Moiraine if she had the chance. By contrast, Eddis is genuinely hesitant and worried because of everything they've heard about how cold Attolia is, and because she's the reason that Gen's hand was cut off.

We get to see Attolia and Gen develop a shared language and see behind each other's walls. The moment when she wears the earrings that he left for her, and he knows that it means she's chosen to marry him of her own free will is such a huge and impactful moment, and the only people who are aware of what it means are Attolia and Gen! This is really a failure that happens based on earlier failures of execution: because Mat and Tuon are never allowed to be alone together, it's impossible for them to develop this kind of shared coding and shared language.

12. We also have the 'footage not found' issue, where one of the characters (mostly Mat) tries to tell me something about Tuon but the narrative completely fails to back it up: this is the case with Tuon being intelligent and perceptive (in the narrative shown to us, she never picks up on anything until her nose is forcibly rubbed in it); and this is case with Mat thinking near the end of Knife of Dreams that Tuon belongs in the same 'better than other nobles' bucket as Talmanes when she has never shown herself to be willing to make better choices than other Seanchan nobles: he is still, at this point, worrying that she might enslave him and turn him into her cupbearer; she has not only threatened but actually assaulted his companions; whenever she's placed in a position of power over other people, she takes advantage of it and them. We're told that she's not a child but she also throws a tantrum (and pottery) at Mat at the start of Crossroads of Twilight. This could have worked if Jordan had leaned into the fact that Mat is deliberately lying to himself in order to make his marriage bearable, but that's where things like randomly having Setalle Anan go over to Tuon's side messes with that narrative.

13. When Jordan has Mat think about how Tuon dying would be a deep loss to him, it's just baffling because she has not done a single thing the entire 'courtship' that has shown why in the world Mat would feel that way. All of the attempts at reaching out during the courtship are Mat's, while Tuon just smugly accepts it as her due. Because Attolia doesn't just accept Gen's love as her due, because she actually doesn't believe him and challenges him on it, we get to hear his justification of it and why he feels that way, and then we also get to see her reciprocation. The relationship is a two-way street in The Queen of Attolia.

14. Which ties into the fact that Jordan chose to make Tuon not just a slaver but an enthusiastic slaver who enjoys the slave-breaking process and that is an incredibly dark place to start a character but it could have worked if it had been the beginning of Tuon's character arc and we'd actually watched her change and grow from that position. And she had the narrative set up for it! In her very first chapter, the reader learns that Tuon has the ability to learn to channel! She was created with the narrative juice to have a compelling arc about accepting the truth about herself and her people. And then Jordan gave that arc to Bethamin instead, lol.

15. In both of these stories 'fate' does kinda serve up Gen/Mat to Attolia/Tuon on a silver platter, but the execution of the storylines makes the reveal that fate was acting to push the two of them together so much more effective in The Queen of Attolia. Choice is a much larger consideration in Attolia and Gen's relationship than it is in Mat and Tuon's. There are elements of the higher powers of the world at work in both relationships, but Attolia and Gen have to put in the work themselves and have to face hard emotional truths in order to get us to the satisfying ending. I get the impression that Tuon wouldn't know an emotional truth if it spit in her eye. We actively see both Gen and Attolia consider and reject the idea of solving their main problem (about the war) without needing to get married; we see them choose their marriage and each other.

With Mat and Tuon, this is a lot more muddled. Fate/the Pattern/the 'finn want them to marry each other but we never get any kind of payoff as to why, and this is primarily because of Jordan's other storylines imo. He should not have had Rand already willing to make peace with the Seanchan in his separate storyline. Convincing Rand to be willing should have been Mat's job (because that also would mean that Mat would need to make the arguments to convince the readers). Jordan showing at the end of KoD that Rand is willing to make a deal with the Seanchan, even at the cost of giving in on the matter of slavery, basically completely voided any narrative reason for Mat and Tuon to get married, but without the satisfaction of seeing the two of them grow to a place where they would actively make that choice rather than being motivated by what they believe is necessary (due to prophecy).

There really were the bones of a potentially compelling story with Mat and Tuon, and I really do hope that the show (when we get there) is able to take those bones and turn it into a genuinely compelling story.

[onaperduamedee]

As a character, Lan is defined by lack of agency.

He was born to be king, but his nation dies out and he becomes the living embodiment of a lost people. New Spring shows that people keep on projecting ambitions on him, expecting him to rebuild Malkier or at least to uphold its culture. To him, the only escape is a futile death in the name of his nation, not even for himself.

Over the course of the books, his character is shown to be rather passive: Moiraine deprives him of his agency by compelling him to live, he is bonded by force to Myrelle, Egwene orders him to go to Nynaeve and Nynaeve herself has to trick him to distract from again dying a futile death in the name of his nation. 

Even his mentoring of Rand is presented by himself as a consequence of Rand's ta'veren pull rather than assertion. Now, this might not be what is actually happening because we see that Lan does disagree with Moiraine's course of actions on other occasions, but that's how he argues in this instance: he's explaining away an attempt to seize agency by saying he in fact wasn't completely in control. According to Lan himself, he is not in control in his own life and he shouldn't be.

So his story is fraught with characters denying his agency. When Nynaeve tricks him, not once but twice, to get him to not die alone in the Blight, with the baggage he has with Moiraine, the fact that it's business as usual for Lan is frustrating for the reader who hoped that at least Nynaeve would be more respectful of his agency. Yet it is consistent for his character to accept that this is how people who care about him (or don't) will treat him because that's what he got with Edeyn, Moiraine, Myrelle, even Bukama to some degree. Obviously, all of these violations do not happen on the same level but these instances are still denial of his agency.

The question as to why he seems to be so accepting of this repeated transgression is not really explored in the books but the reason can be easily inferred: trauma from losing his family and people so young, from being burdened with carrying the memory of a dead nation since infancy (he's described like a memorial more than a person), from embarking on a lifelong rather hopeless journey with Moiraine, from war, naturally. It is what makes him a compelling character, albeit a frustratingly static one.

He changes very little from the beginning to the end of the story, if one considers the beginning to be New Spring. He started the story by wanting to ride into the Blight to die and ended up the story by riding into a fight against Demandred (I have to stop calling him Demi in my head) to die. The tension of his story, for me, is that no matter how much Nynaeve sparks hope in him and even desire for a future, trauma is incredibly strong a pull and will draw him toward seeking death nevertheless. 

There's a sort of nihilism to his character, a death drive, that's consistent with his baggage as a war veteran and trauma victim. It's not far-fetched to read his arc as an exploration of the fact that love (Nynaeve) and duty (toward Malkier and Moiraine) aren't enough to heal and survive on his own.

That's why the culmination of Lan's arc, for me, isn't when he rides to Tarwin Gap or fights Demandred (because it's the same old death drive disguised as abnegation), or even when he dons Malkier's crown (because it has been his responsibility from birth), but when Agelmar calls him selfish: 

« Lan stopped, eyeing the aged general. “Take care, Lord Agelmar. It almost sounds as if you are calling me selfish.”

“I am, Lan,” Agelmar said. “And you are.”

Lan did not flinch.

“You came to throw your life away for Malkier. That, in itself, is noble. However, with the Last Battle upon us, it’s also stupid. We need you. Men will die because of your stubbornness.” »

[...]

« Some men,” Agelmar said, “are destined to die, and they fear it. Others are destined to live, and to lead, and they find it a burden. If you wished to keep fighting here until the last man fell, you could do it, and they’d die singing the glory of the fight. Or, you could do what we both need to do. » - A Memory Of Light, Brandon Sanderson.

Agelmar calls Lan selfish because, like Tenobia, Lan is wriggling out of duty toward his people by seeking a heroic death, but Agelmar is mainly challenging the notion Lan has been touting as his mantra for decades: "Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain".

What Agelmar is implying is that Lan has been misinterpreting this saying to justify evading his responsibilities. Agelmar refers to his responsibility toward Malkier and the world as his duty; Lan sees his long pursuit of death (for Malkier in the Blight, for the DR with Moiraine) as his duty. Dying for the cause was the goal - in his mind it is what he can offer and what Agelmar is pointing out. It's less about being selfish and more about Lan being self-destructive. His war against the shadow is a war against himself.

It isn't exactly a revelation for him because although Lan is shaken by Agelmar's words he later rides into battle to die at the hands of Demandred, with Agelmar and all the other generals out of commission. 

What is interesting narratiely is that at this point Lan gets exactly what he wants: at last no one is stopping him to ride and die into battle. He gets to be only a man, not the herald of a dead nation, a man who can die at that. Yet, death denies him and he survives, somehow.

We don't know exactly why and how he survives the death blows Demandred deals to him. It could be that the Wheel needed him alive so he survived when so many died (in New Spring, Lan is a target for the shadow because he is suspiciously lucky), it could be that Demandred was just a man himself after all and Rand's sealing the DO (with Moiraine and Nynaeve) happened just in the nick of time for Demandred to be stopped from re-ascending to more.

The narrative treats the why as of no importance: Lan is forced to live, yet again, except by the Wheel itself. The natural follow-up is that he will live, he will reclaim Malkier, he will grow old with Nynaeve. His crowning moment with Nynaeve at his side is presented at the end as a fait accompli, as the obvious next step in his survival.

But I cannot help finding this conclusion to his arc inordinately sad. He didn't choose life. He didn't choose Malkier. He chose Nynaeve but tragically it wasn't enough to get him to choose living: it isn't before the very end that he sees Nynaeve as more than a widow. And even then, there's a discrepancy between his thoughts and actions: he can envision a future with her, yet he doesn't make the decisions that could spare him.

One could argue that he chose future by giving the Aes Sedai a chance of success in going against Demandred, but fighting Demandred IS a senseless and desperate decision only leading to death because it's how Gawyn and Galad's fight against him is described as. Lan went in expecting to die, knowing he would deprive his people of a leader and Nynaeve of a husband and warder (just as Gawyn dying right in the middle of battle is a selfish act in regards to Egwene, Lan doing the same to Nynaeve is just as selfish). He chose death, again and again, and it was denied him. 

When I think of Lan, I cannot help going back to Verlaine's famous poem about Kaspar Hauser, here translated by Peter Low (https://www.lieder.net/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=136604)

I came, a calm orphan,

with no wealth but my peaceful eyes,

among the men of the cities:

they did not find me clever.

At age twenty a new turmoil

- it is known as amorous flames -

made me find women beautiful:

they did not find me handsome.

Though lacking a homeland or king

and not being very brave,

I wanted to go to war and die:

death didn't want me.

Was I born too early or too late?

What am I doing in this world?

Listen, all of you, I am in deep sorrow:

say a prayer for poor Gaspard.

I see little triumph in him surviving the Last Battle as he remained passive to the very end, carried by the Wheel and what it had planned for him, relentlessly pushed to seeking death and clinging whatever reason he could muster to justify to himself dying nobly (Malkier, Moiraine, the Dragon, etc...). He's fundamentally adrift long before meeting Moiraine and the journey to Merrilor did nothing to ground him.

More than the technicalities of rebuilding a nation that's been buried for 40 years, I'm fascinated by what life, a simple, quiet life with his wife and friends, would do to a man like Lan: he spent his life replacing one reason to die with another and although Nynaeve and a nation to rebuild can be a reason to live it wasn't enough before the Last Battle, which left him probably more traumatised. 

What does life look like to Lan? Is he prepared to experience it and more importantly to be an actor in it rather than an object? I'm not sure the books could have provided an answer because veteran's mental health is a delicate matter and the therapy Ajah isn't really a thing in the books but the conclusion of his arc on his surviving as a punishment almost is worth interrogating.

[jpiercecreative]

For those of us fans of the Wheel of Time novels who aren’t entirely satisfied by the show, here are some portraits of Rand al’Thor as I’ve imagined him based on the books (((created with Midjourney))) :

[toastandjamie]

Hi. So okay, this is gonna be an absolutely batshit crazy rambling about a missed opportunity for the ending of Wheel of Time that I’m super freak about.

Listen, LISTEN, I’m the first person to say Rand deserved to be happy, that he deserved his little relaxing trip in his brand new skin and enjoy his life. But like also- I do kinda think he should’ve died in the last battle. And it’s not because of the angst factor, like I love the angst but that’s great for fanfiction and what ifs not necessarily actual storytelling.

I think that thematically Rand should’ve died because Egwene died. Now bear with me while I explain this okay.

So, Rand and Egwene are character foils. Two sides of the same coin. Mirrored character arcs. They ARE Saidine and Saidar incarnate. They ARE the Aes Sedai of the age of legends, powerful together and doom the world when they refuse to cooperate and listen to eachother. So I do think that if one dies the other should’ve died as well, but specifically in the context of them both becoming Concepts, of ascending beyond being People and becoming these esoteric figures of myth, representing the hopes and futures of the world, they Are the One Power. Figuratively.

Like Egwene dying by becoming a literal beam of light and the one power. Becoming one with the true source as I interpreted it. So good, no notes. Absolutely love that as an thematic ending for her; but it feels a bit empty without well, the other half of it. A major theme in the Wheel of Time is the concept of balance and duality. Light and dark, masculine and feminine, selfishness and selflessness, joy and sorrow. The idea that Both need to exist, that one cannot truly exist without the other, that these forces balance eachother. So if we take Egwene and Rand as representations of the two halves of the one power, then one should not exist without the other. I guess in some ways Rand losing his ability to channel and his original body is a form of death, but I don’t know, I would’ve liked the follow through I think lol