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lotusdiscussthis · 5 years

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@yunevii

I read your tags and I was afraid to respond to it considering you didn’t show it on the reblog. By putting your comments on the tags, I could’ve easily overlooked it, so I didn’t know if you really wanted to talk about it or not. In the end, I’ve decided to link you to give you my reply anyway. I hope you don’t mind.

I don’t blame you for not agreeing. After all, my perception of Saihara can be hard to believe when I haven’t given enough explanations as to what made me look at Saihara in such a negative way. It’s mainly due to having to reanalyze the story in a different perspective after discovering things that paints the supposedly innocent detective in a different light. But I’ll try to explain my thoughts the best that I can...

“kokichi often makes conversations go in frustrating circles because of his lies...

True, talking to Ouma also gave me headaches when I first played. Though sometimes the best way to determine someone’s nature is to not always rely on their words, but through their actions. It’s easy to say things like “I’m really evil” and act like the bad guy, but if your actions contradict with that behavior, that would naturally raise questions.

Let’s take Ouma’s evil speech after Gonta died. He said he enjoys their suffering, yet in the previous chapter, he urged Himiko to express her grief properly. How is it that he would go that far for someone he barely even knows, only to suddenly make a big show about he loves their suffering later on? Or when Ouma looked like he faked being injured only for Saihara to notice him wobbling as he walked and failed to notice how he was blanking out while talking to him? Or how about when Ouma was screaming “WE want to live, so don’t get in our way!” mid-trial while arguing with Kaito? We’ve just forgotten that part when Ouma later explains, “Oh yeah, me and Gonta were totally planning on getting you all killed so you wouldn’t have to face the horrible despair of the outside world!” None of this makes any sense.

How is it that Saihara would overlook these major redflags that would contradict the fact that Ouma was a heartless person? If I can notice this myself, how is it that the protagonist, the Ultimate Detective, can’t??? (Also, reading between the lines is kinda what detectives do, so this is no excuse)

“i think more than anything saihara wanted to feel like kokichi was on his side-...”

I will be frank, you shouldn’t expect people to do anything for you so simply. That was pretty much what I was trying convey in my original post. To think that somebody on the opposing side as you is automatically suspicious, not good, or wrong is just incredibly flawed reasoning. Especially since the reason why Ouma wasn’t on Saihara’s side in the first place was because he was mostly siding with Kaito the whole time. And Kaito, a man of instinct/belief/blind optimism, mostly showed hostility towards almost everything Ouma says and does. Ouma clearly knew the gravity of the situation and yet, he gets treated like the pariah because almost nobody wants to listen to what he has to say.

Ouma tried several times in the beginning to speak logically about their circumstances, yet practically everyone would automatically think he’s trying to start up pointless trouble. Like when Ouma said if Gonta were to continue being gullible, he was going to get killed. The reason why we saw Ouma as the bad guy in that moment was because everyone around him started to get all defensive and called him insensitive for saying such things after Kaede and Rantaro died. Which isn’t rational. THEY ARE IN A DEATH GAME. Whether Ouma had said anything or not wouldn’t have changed that fact.

Out of everyone, Ouma has proven to have put in the most effort into showing his trustworthiness by spitting out the facts and warning them all to be careful, but it was everyone else (besides Miu and Gonta) that had rejected his help in the end.

On the one hand, Saihara hadn’t really done anything to earn Ouma’s support and friendship since meeting him. Even if Saihara was truly expecting what you had claimed, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s selfish for him to think that way. He doesn’t owe Saihara anything.

On the other hand, Ouma also did say at one point he was on everyone else’s side. And in the 5th trial, he had put everything on the line for his final plan to work and put an end to the killing game. Knowing that, does it still sound like he was not on his friends’ side? Even if you’ve figured it out, Saihara somehow couldn’t bring himself to comprehend this fact.

“...but talking to him always feels like a battle just to get the truth out”

If the ‘truth’ you are referring to is about knowing Ouma’s true intentions and plans, then there’s a good reason for that. Ouma did mention in the beginning that carelessly opening up to people would be dangerous. And no, I don’t think he was speaking as Mr. Paranoia as much as the fandom loves to see him as. I think he said that because Monokuma would most likely be listening in on their conversations and that one of their friends is most likely the ringleader. (Just like how Kyoko was cautious of talking to Makoto out in the open in DR1) And turns out he was correct. So if he explained that much in the beginning, shouldn’t that give the listener (Saihara) a better idea as to why he shouldn’t be too outright with his intentions? There’s only so much you can do without getting careless within a killing game.

“also by the time saihara says that he’ll never get kokichi to change kokichi had proven to be not just hard to talk to but pretty heartless and villainous as well”

I would like for you to recall how Ouma first introduced himself... Now this is something I’ve always found curious, but never really dove into too deeply in case the story were to prove me otherwise at some point. But now that it’s been a year since I first played, I just have to ask those who think that Ouma has a single sadistic or villainous bone in his body.....

What kind of antagonist would out themselves as a liar in the beginning? In a killing game, no less?

We all know that he’s an incredibly clever boy who knows how to play mind games and put on an act that would befit the situation. So if he was truly serious about winning the game and was willing to coldly disregard the lives of others, wouldn’t it make more sense to not reveal that problematic aspect of himself? Wouldn’t it give him a better advantage to NOT play the flaming jerkwad role and piss everyone off to the point of wanting to kill you? Much like how Komaeda played innocent until Hajime and Chiaki cornered him into admitting that he set up the murder plan and then showed his crazy side. Ouma could’ve played himself up just like that as well, but no. Instead he kept claiming he’s nothing more than a liar.

Admitting to a bunch of (supposed) strangers that he’s a liar just makes no sense at all. Although, to disregard his intentions as just him being crazy or just him screwing around would be oversimplifying things. Even Nagito had an understandable method to his madness...

“though he hadnt done anything drastic he does fuck up the trials and says (lies) about how much fun the killing game is”

When you say “fuck up the trials”, you mean when he took Ryoma’s motive video or saying that he killed Angie? I had to ask to make sure because just simply saying “he screwed up the trials” is not a clear enough explanation. Anyway, we never actually knew the real reason as to why Ouma stole the motive vid. We were made to think he did it for kicks, but in the end, he explained on Ryoma’s behalf that his motive video was empty when nobody knew what could’ve made him lose his will to live. I guess he also speculated that Maki was Ryoma’s killer and wanted to steal it before she got a hold of it. After all, she was the original holder of his video and nobody knew about her and Ryoma’s encounter besides Ouma, so nobody would’ve questioned her as to why she had his video. And I think Ouma was waiting for an opportune moment to shove the evidence in her face if things went differently. (I’m just guessing here tho.) But I do believe Ouma has reasons for why he does what he does, instead of simply doing it for jokes.

On the matter of him claiming that he killed Angie, he said so himself that he was trying to lure out the culprit by pretending to be the killer. He said if he played the killer, the actual blackened would likely push the blame onto him. I don’t know about you, but I think that’s more of a valid reason to do it than simply screwing around.

It’s rather funny to me how the fandom talks about how Ouma screws up the trials, but what about Tenko, Himiko and Maki???

Tenko kept others from questioning Himiko for the sake of the investigation, Himiko would sooner let everyone die for the sake of keeping her magic a secret, and Maki stupidly kept quiet and put the trial on hold so nobody would figure out her talent. And yet, Saihara would sooner side with them and lie for their sake in the middle of the trial even though he had just about as little relations with them as he did with Ouma. Why????

“its really hard for saihara to feel like he’s on his side despite how much he does want to work with him”

I’m sorry to say, but Saihara had that opportunity to work with Ouma when the boy himself made the offer in the VW. Without considering it or even questioning him, Saihara just ignored him and logged out. Saihara clearly had no intention of working beside him.

“i do kinda agree that he didnt really ask that many questions but kokichis answers really had proven to always be super vague or just a lie”

Which vague answers are you talking about exactly? I wouldn’t know how to answer that myself because that’s not specific enough. Give me an example?

“the point is i really dont believe saihara is an arrogant person.”

I’m afraid that the screencaps I’ve shown in the original post aren’t the only proof I have to show that he’s an arrogant person. I wanted to mention them in a different post, but I’ll give you a few other brief examples.

He has insinuated that Ouma is stupid despite the fact that we’re talking about the same dude that has pretty much been doing more detective work than the actual detective did. Not to mention that Saihara’s the one that believed Ouma was the mastermind and screwed up the first case majorly.

After the 5th Closing Argument, Saihara claimed his detective’s intuition was flawless even though it was clearly just conjecture in the end. He had practically no proof to back up what he had laid out for them. He may have gotten Kaito to exit out of the exisal but only because he had to lie. That doesn’t prove that was what actually transpired. Only Kaito knows about what had happened between him and Ouma, and seeing how Kaito was following the script he was given, we wouldn’t know the extent of it.

This one really peeves me. Because he thinks he knows better, he thinks he gets to shut down someone else’s emotions because he thinks they’re lying when he couldn’t possibly have gotten the chance to know one thing about him. Whether you think someone is insincere or not, it’s not your place to disregard their feelings like that.

There’s also the fact that Kirumi got unexpectedly personal and called out on the fact that Saihara doesn’t even listen to others in the 2nd trial. It was weird how she could make these accusations at all like she knows something...

And despite the fact that Tsumugi claimed it was Kaede’s twin as the possible suspect, Saihara would sooner disregard the piece of evidence because he trusted his intuition moreso than looking into possible facts. Same can be said in the first trial too, where he trusted his intuition to pin Kaede as the culprit despite the fact that she WASN’T...

I’ll just stop it here...

“i dont think its right to compare gundam and kokichi”

Well, I don’t see how it’s wrong either, honestly... Considering how the game itself gave me a lot to work with to show how much these two said characters contrast with one another. I actually made something before that would showcase a lot of comparisons between Ouma and Gundham. So if you wish, you can look for yourself and see what I mean... (Link to Self-Sacrificing Duos post) And a friend of mine actually analyzed a scene between the two when they had a moment in TDP and the game even subtly hinted about them being similar! (Link to Gundham and Ouma TDP moment post)

It’s kinda hard not to compare when there are a number of things you can compare within this franchise, not just Gundham and Ouma. They are all by the same creator after all and he loves to re-utilize his own tropes.

“wow i should not have written all this in the tags its so long sorry i make it sound like i dont like kokichi when i really do. he’s a great character just really hard to get along with. i hope this made any sense lol”

It’s no problem. I just hope that what I’ve explained made sense ^^; I apologize if I come across as harsh or anything like that, but I couldn’t find myself expressing certain points any better than I did...

Hopefully, this gives you at least a better understanding of where I’m coming from.

#{replied}#yunevii #{opinions}#{thoughts}#{screencaps}#{personal}#{answered}#{I need smeeps}

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