#zevsurana academics

[vigilskeep]

read my powerpoint boy

[vigilskeep]

back and even bulkier with another powerpoint! i opted for spreading the information out in a hopefully engaging way over limiting the number of slides. the circle is a BIG, big topic, with such focus over the course of the games, so if i didn't cover anything useful, you want to know anything more specific, or equally if i made a mistake and missed or misinterpreted something, please let me know ily!!

transcript below the cut! my eternal thanks to @bisexualcommandershepard for providing one for the previous powerpoint and in doing so reminding me to get my act together, you have my sword

zevsurana’s guide to the circle of magi

can’t tell your circles from your chantries from your colleges from your conclaves? boy, do i have the powerpoint for you!

hit me with the basics

under the law of the orlesian chantry, every mage is required to join the circle

a mage who does not join the circle, or escapes one, is labelled an apostate, a crime punishable by death or tranquillity

tranquillity is the process by which mages are branded on the forehead, robbing them of their emotions and magic

at the end of their apprenticeship, each mage is taken without warning to their harrowing. they must choose between being sent into the fade for a dangerous test against possession, or tranquillity.

it is illegal to make harrowed mages tranquil, but they are still required to live under the circle’s supervision

depending on which text you believe, there are 14 or 15 circles under orlais’ chantry.

[this slide is accompanied by an image of a map of thedas. there are small markers spread across the map on 12 locations, mostly in orlais and the free marches, but included everywhere except tevinter and seheron.]

these are the known locations!

i didn’t include starkhaven’s, which was destroyed in a fire at the start of da2, or jainen’s, which is mentioned in an online game but as another circle in ferelden makes the dao plot make no sense. i suppose that would have gotten us up to 14 but i’m not doing it. cope

hierarchy of the circle

there are six ranks:

the grand enchanter is the mages’ direct representative to the divine. in our time, this is grand enchanter fiona, who famously stated “fuck the divine”

the first enchanter leads each circle. theoretically, their permission is needed for a mage to leave the tower, for a harrowing, and for a mage to be made tranquil. in practice, their actual power depends hugely on their political skill and their corresponding knight-commander

the senior enchanters are the most experienced mages in a circle, and advise the first enchanter, who will select one of them as their successor

those who have gained the rank of enchanter (also known as junior enchanters) are now expected to mentor apprentices

the simple rank of mage designates those who have passed their harrowing. an inhabitant of the circle fully capable of magic might say “i’m not a mage, just an apprentice”

the apprentices are children and young adults who have not yet completed their harrowing

outside of this hierarchy are the tranquil. they instead belong to the ‘formari’, who perform enchantment and sell enchanted items to produce the circle’s wealth

(it’s really important to me that you know the different ranks usually have different coloured robes to mark them out. i can’t explain that all here because it varies from circle to circle and we don’t have all the data but i think that’s so fun that i have to point it out even though it makes this slide super crowded i hate it i’m sorry)

politics of the circle: what are those first enchanters even doing?

an ideal first enchanter should govern their circle as a quasi-parental figure who can protect their mages while maintaining an uneasy balance and accord with the templars

they are also an administrator managing their circle’s finances

a weak or unskilled first enchanter can spell doom for their circle just as much as one at odds with their knight-commander

the college of magi is a council of all first enchanters

the college regularly meets in cumberland, nevarra, to discuss circle policy and elect the grand enchanter from among them

politics of the circle: what’s this about frat boys?

once a mage achieves the rank of enchanter, they may join a political fraternity

choose your fighter:

the largest fraternity, the aequitarians, are centrists

the loyalists are chantry bootlickers

the libertarians seek greater power and independence for the circle. the resolutionists are an even more radical group that emerged from them

the isolationists wish mages to withdraw from society completely

the lucrosians prioritise the accumulation of wealth and influence

the aequitarians maintained an alliance with the loyalists until the final vote to rebel, when wynne’s son rhys, asked to represent the aequitarians by first enchanter irving, voted with the libertarians

that was a lot of politics.

let’s take a breather because we haven’t even gotten to history yet oh boy

[this slide is accompanied by two pieces of dragon age concept art of white-haired mage women casting spells. one is an older human white woman who may be wynne, dressed in ornate robes and casting purple magic with a casually imperious gesture. the other is the concept art for warden surana, an angry-looking young elven white woman with a palm full of icy magic.]

hot circle mage concept art break. of course you have white hair and [caps lock begins] one thousand points lightning damage-- [caps lock ends]

but where do circles come from, i hear you cry

well, when two semi-circles love each other very much,

the year is 1:20 divine, and our questionable hero is kordillus drakon…

the circles had existed long before this, of course, in a very different form: elite tevinter academic societies

but right now, the south is in chaos. the first inquisition’s reign is coming to a close. the second blight is fifteen years underway with no sign of stopping any time soon, and will rage until 1:95 divine

kordillus drakon, the very first emperor of orlais, has a budding empire and a budding chantry that look like they might die in the cradle… unless he can continue enlisting mages against the darkspawn

we may wish to take a moment to register that kordillus drakon apparently looked like this. Sure.

[this slide is accompanied by concept art of kordillus drakon. he is blond white man in vaguely iron age dress, with an interesting hair cut including bangs, a high half ponytail and a very large moustache. he wears a swamp-green cloak and a black fur pelt over a green and white striped tunic, with a hand-axe slung through his belt, and crossed garters over whatever combination boots and pants he's wearing, which seems to be one singular garment.]

the solution to drakon's problem?

the nevarran accord

“what do video game enjoyers love? fantasy historical treaties? yeah, probably” – bioware, constantly

and they’re right unless you’re a joyless hater

the nevarran accord was agreed between the newly formed chantry and the original inquisition in 1:20 divine

the people of the south feared magic, but they also wanted to be able to use its power against great threats like the darkspawn

in one move, the circle of magi, the seekers of truth, and the templar order were created

some mages considered the circle a refuge in a world full of terror. to others, it was a prison

but this is dragon age, so maker forbid we would only be told one version of events

there is also a codex entry called ‘history of the circle’

it describes the mages of the divine age as chafing under being allowed to do little more than light candles and lamps for the chantry… as if there wasn’t a fucking blight going on

in protest, mages snuffed out the eternal flame in the grand cathedral at val royeaux, and barricaded themselves in the choir loft. divine ambrosia ii attempted to call an exalted march on her own cathedral, but even her templars discouraged her

shouted negotiations were conducted for 21 days before the mages “went cheerily into exile” in a remote fortress, separated from society into the circle for “the first time”

nerd's note:

personally, i would understand this as the circle as an organisation being created with the accord in 1:20 divine, and the mages being relegated to this lesser role after the greatest battles against the darkspawn, with the establishment of circle of magi towers after the protest. there’s no date of events on this codex, but since it mentions templars, it has to have been post-accord.

i would also take this account with a grain of salt in-world, as it was written by sister petrine, a controversial writer to the chantry, but nonetheless a chantry scholar.

this has been a lot of chatter about mages. but there’s an elephant in the room, and it’s looking at us suspiciously…

the circle and the templar order

the circle does supposedly have nominal independence from the chantry…

Knight-Commander Greagoir: I promised you aid, but with the Circle restored, my duty is to watch the mages. They are free to help you, however. Warden: I thought the templars were in charge of the Circle. Knight-Commander Greagoir: The templars guard and advise, but the first enchanter has the last word in what happens in the Circle.

...

Warden: Won’t the Circle of Magi do what the Chantry says? Alistair: Technically the Circle of Magi is independent. We don’t know that the Chantry won’t support us, of course. Morrigan: You truly believe that? Alistair: If we speak to the First Enchanter, he should see that his responsibility to the Grey Wardens supersedes anything the Chantry or even Teyrn Loghain might have to say about it.

… but since when has power ever gone where it’s supposed to?

as world of thedas volume 1 explains, “Although the Circle is supposed to be autonomous, a heavy Templar presence in all Circle towers has effectively made the organisation an arm of the Chantry for ages.”

a first enchanter can quickly lose all the power they allegedly hold

even in the best of times with a skilful, well-intentioned first enchanter, templars reserve the right to send mages to the dungeons, to take away their children, to kill any who leave the circle, etc. as a matter of course

grand clerics reserve the right to grant the right of annulment

generally, the system is maintained by a mutual interest in avoiding open conflict

the templars are the ones in power with the chantry’s full support. if they drive the mages to open conflict, their comfortable routine is uprooted

templars are equipped to hunt down individual mages, even blood mages and abominations

templars are not equipped to be outnumbered or face even numbers. mages are simply far more powerful in a fair fight than they are. lyrium can only do so much

...

mages, meanwhile, operate under the not entirely unfounded belief that the outside world is entirely hostile to them

at least if they remain, they can keep an uneasy balance in which most mages survive, their existence tolerated by the chantry. they can continue studying among their own kind in the only home they know

if they openly rebel, they may throw aside what limited protections and goodwill they have. mages like wynne outright state certainty that if they rebel, “genocide” will follow

furthermore, those mages with more status have more access to privilege. they’re also the ones who have best passed the chantry’s tests. thus, those in a position to lead are least inclined to rebel

you only rebel against the circle because you think less of your children are going to die starting a war than they are in here.

and, uh, on that cheery note… any questions from the class?

[vigilskeep]

one of my favourite tiny bits of merrill dialogue is when she first arrives in the alienage and says “elgar’nan. is this... is this really where the elves live?” and to the player who isn’t that familiar with the lore, as well as presumably hawke and their companions, “elgar’nan” simply sounds like an unknown exclamation in her language of the shock she clearly feels. but in tone it isn’t a startled thoughtless exclamation, it’s soft and deliberate, and she’s not just invoking a god, she’s invoking the god of revenge

[vigilskeep]

i know apostates just openly wander around w staves in da2 because game mechanics but you have to imagine that realistically within kirkwall they’d just have to do a ton of bare-handed casting and fuck up their hands immeasurably. like when you meet anders in awakening and he’s visibly shaking out his hands and wincing bc the templars didn’t give him a stave to defend himself and so he burned himself frying the darkspawn. staves are at least partly a safety measure. it wouldn’t be surprising if his hands are absolutely littered in burn scars in da2 or if bethy’s lost a finger to frostbite or merrill doesn’t quite have the feeling in them anymore after too much entropy

[vigilskeep]

i do read anders as completely lying abt how the wardens treated him when you meet him in act 1. the fact that this is the first thing he says to any heavily armed stranger who walks in the door, and also that he refuses to give up grey warden secrets on other occasions, does not inspire me to believe him wholeheartedly. “the wardens suck and they took away my cat” is not only an incredibly convenient and distracting cover story for why he left that doesn’t involve mentioning the whole possessed-by-a-spirit thing, it could also easily be his small way of having the warden-commander’s back. it looks ten times better for them publicly if they have a runaway apostate going around saying “yeah the wardens were too tough and dedicated so i quit” than one going around saying “yeah the wardens actively killed templars for me back in the day and are not making the slightest effort to hunt me down, despite me being a mage who was their responsibility”

[vigilskeep]

oh, anders sounds pretty angry when saying the irving line. it's one of those few that sounds esp kind of sincerely hurt, i suppose, you know, the same way he gets riled up in some of his dialogue where he drops the jokey demeanor fpr a moment. which is interesting in general considering how irving described to treat him in thedas info book, like asking the templars to go easier on the boy but then regretting going soft him. and all anders has to say in return is that he hated him, and means it

i think it makes sense to me that anders would genuinely hate irving and it also makes me want to eat drywall so here’s some thoughts on that

being a first enchanter is probably the most privileged position in a circle and it’s also the worst job you could ever have. you’re leader and advocate of the mages. to the templars, you’re the voice of opposition and discord. to the mages, you’re the guy who works closest to the templars, deciding to make compromises, agreeing to make certain mages tranquil, overseeing harrowings, and placating the rebellious. and if you don’t balance this, all those people under your care are going to die

in many ways, irving and greagoir are the intended ideal of a first enchanter and knight-commander. world of thedas vol2 says: “it is a surprise to many that irving often credits knight-commander greagoir for his success as first enchanter. [...] though their friendship was never entirely without conflict, mutual respect and understanding resulted in a working partnership rarely seen in the circle leadership.” (i consider the first part a veiled joke at greagoir’s expense but that’s my very specific irving characterisation lmao.) in the mage origin, irving and greagoir are constantly arguing, but the very fact that irving can do that on the regular while visibly appearing on a fairly even footing is a mark of the respect he holds. it’s a rlly different energy to, say, meredith and orsino’s arguments. likewise, greagoir’s trust in irving during broken circle is phenomenal: he straight up will not annul his demon-infested circle if his first enchanter says it’s alright.

so the trust irving holds with the templars saves the circle. it also makes kinloch hold one of the most lenient circles in southern thedas—yes, it’s still a circle, it’s horrible, but the freedoms that some of the senior enchanters have are insane. you do not win that kind of trust from the templars without concessions. you do not win it, for example, without being the kind of first enchanter who does things like lure apprentices into blood magic and then hand over anyone willing to try it to the templars. it doesn’t surprise me that every part of irving’s behaviour reads as treachery to anders, the guy who said, “i will not stand by and watch while you treat all mages as criminals while those who would lead us bow to their templar jailers!” (emphasis mine, directed at orsino during the last straw.) it’s not in anders’ nature to be particularly charitable to those who collaborate with the circle. the trust irving holds with greagoir puts them visibly on the same team

irving cared about anders. he “took pity on the tearful boy”, he was “endeared” by his friendliness and charm, he “looked upon anders with sympathy”. he told the templars to be kinder to him, and he even made efforts to arrange time outdoors for him and the other apprentices. he worries about anders after karl is taken to the gallows, telling him that even a first enchanter might no longer be able to protect him if he tries anything, implying he has been protecting him all this time, and overall it’s heavily heavily implied that if it hadn’t been for irving’s influence anders would be tranquil or dead. so where’s “i hated that bastard” coming from? because from anders’ perspective, i think even all this still reads like cowardice and treachery. when you’re twelve years old and crying and missing home and you get dragged to someone’s office after your escape attempt, it looks like they have all the power, and all irving ever did with it was cave to the templars to get his meagre little liberties and tell everyone there was no other way. i also don’t doubt that anders deeply resents the idea that he should have to be grateful to anyone for the above. grateful for the privilege of his life? for being allowed not to have his very emotions stolen from him? for a supervised day under the sun if he’s well-behaved? perhaps next he can write them all thank you letters for his hands, since they didn’t cut them off. maybe after that he can pay the rent he owes for the cell he was in solitary confinement in

to anders, i think even everything good irving managed to do for the mages under his care, they’re all placating measures, designed to keep them just comfortable enough in their cages not to break the bars. that’s not necessarily a kindness to the mages, not in the eyes of the guy who came to the conclusion that there can be no compromise, there can be no peace. i don’t think those thoughts are as ummm coherent during awakening—you’re getting them in the simplistic rebellious form of “i hated that bastard” for a reason, it reads like a leftover from a teenage grudge against a teacher (which it also is!), and oversll i think it’s more personal and complicated than all this political reading because irving was so much a part of his life—but they’re there. as a last point on real hatred from anders, i think it’s worth saying that irving was probably aware of and somewhat complicit in things like karl being transferred and anders’ solitary confinement, not to mention presiding over their harrowings and being involved in the making tranquil of surely many people that anders knew. like those are compromises irving made and was probably present for, regardless of whether you think he had any real choices

this is so long but i love thinking abt both characters so much. i’ll leave it there. as usual just thinking out loud, open to discussion etc

[vigilskeep]

festivals of thedas!!

five major holidays are celebrated all across thedas "from tevinter to ferelden", tied to the transition of seasons. (they are generally in the andrastian tradition, and have links to tevinter culture considering its widespread imperialism and influence.) i'm going to talk about what we know from the lore and also what i think the real world inspirations are, but i'm not the most knowledgeable person on that specifically, so if anyone has extra contributions especially for the latter, or thoughts of what their own cultural background might bring to some of these, i would love that!!

first day is celebrated, naturally, on the first day of the year! in the january equivalent month of wintermarch/verimensis. on this holiday, you visit family and neighbours, which in remote areas was once literally just an annual check that everyone was alive. there's a town gathering to commemorate the past year, with drinking and merriment, of course. celebrating the start of a new year is one of the oldest traditional holidays in the world. i might compare the tradition of making visits to scotland's 'first-footing' on hogmanay (new year's eve), where the first person who enters a home is a bringer of fortune (and gifts!). in scotland it should specifically be a dark-haired man to ensure good luck, but there are similar practises in other places with different standards

wintersend is a festival for the end of winter, celebrated at the end of the february equivalent, guardian/pluitanis. originally called "urthalis" and dedicated to urthemiel, old god of beauty and the archdemon from dao, it now celebrates the maker. i would imagine for both it stood to thank them as the bounty and plenty of creation returned to the world. we have some information on how it varies between regions. in the south, it is a day to gather, trade, arrange marriages, and attend theatre. in tevinter, it marks great tourneys and contests at the proving grounds in minrathous. nevarra, too, has "particularly grand" wintersend tournaments.

summerday (you begin to see how creative these names are) honours, you guessed it, the beginning of summer, celebrated at the beginning of may, or bloomingtide/molioris. apparently universally celebrated as a time for joy and marriage, which may explain why it was once called andoralis and sacred to andoral, old god of unity. time for those marriages the southerners arranged at wintersend to be celebrated! but most specifically, it's the day for coming of age. there's no details on at what age this occurs, and it may vary across thedas, but on summerday boys and girls wear white tunics and gowns in a grand procession to the local chantry to be taught the responsibilities of adulthood there. so most characters raised andrastian probably went through this! lots of cultures have coming of age celebrations but i'm not super familiar with them personally as my own is lacking, so i would love to have other people's takes on what else this might involve and if you see any similarities!!

funalis is now much better known in thedas as all soul's day, since after the first blight its original associations with dumat, the old god of silence, became rather unpopular. it's now spent in sombre remembrance of the dead. in some northern lands (i would expect this to be mainly acceptable in tevinter), there are parades after midnight where the people dress as spirits, which sounds so fucking cool, by the way, WHAT does that look like in the cultural imagination. in the south, it memorialises the death of andraste, with public bonfires to mark her death on the pyre, and religious plays depicting the events. all of this is obviously influenced by the real world all souls' day, a christian commemoration of the departed on 2 november, and i suspect visuals of the mexican day of the dead are being called up for the parades. however, funalis is actually celebrated at the start of august/matrinalis, which is equivalent to... you know... august. thedas gets an early start on spooky season i guess? for the southern andrastian stuff i would look at the history of miracle plays and catholic festivals

lastly, satinalia is a holiday accompanied by wild celebration, the wearing of masks, and naming the town fool as ruler for a day. it was once dedicated to zazikel, the old goddess of freedom, but is now more attributed to satina, thedas' second moon. this is very obviously linked to the ancient roman festival of saturnalia, which involved a similar switching of roles for the day, with slaves having the banquets and freedom of speech their masters would normally enjoy, and the rules changing for the day on how dress indicated rank, potentially including mask-wearing. you can see why the goddess of freedom was relevant. it's also been connected to later traditions like the british 'lord of misrule', which could be an influence too! there are many other festivals of masks to look to, as well. satinalia is celebrated at the beginning of firstfall/umbralis, which is november. in antiva, it last for a week or more, while a week of fasting follows. in others, it's marked by large feasts and the giving of gifts.

these are the festival days celebrated in all of thedas (in andrastian culture, at least), and there are likely many more regionally. for example, there's a delightful page in world of thedas vol 2 outlining all nevarra city's entertainments throughout the year, including ancestral pageants of the dead in the autumn, and winter styles of dance that mimic dragon hunting featuring armoured dress and fluttering red cloth, likely inspired by the pasodoble's mimicry of bull and matador. every place and culture in thedas surely has their own, and their own variations on the shared festivals above

i would loveeee if people included these more in their thoughts and fics and hcs. let your beloved characters get engaged at wintersend and remember their coming of age on summerday and dress up for parades!! pls. for my health.

[vigilskeep]

harker do you have any idea when the fifth blight starts and ends? like it’s in 9:31 or smth but like… what month?

okay, so, forewarning, the dates we know are a bit of a mess.

we know for sure that the fifth blight starts and the battle of ostagar takes place in 9:30 dragon, and that the blight ends in 9:31 dragon.

we also know that by the end of the six months between dao and awakening, it’s still 9:31, and i actually just found out that we have a very precise date: if you execute nathaniel, there’s apparently a line of formal sentencing which states it is “the seventeenth of ferventis”. ferventis/justinian is june. the weather is a bit cheerless for june, but i suppose the climate is still recovering from the blight and the locations are, like, the storm coast and the blackmarsh. the wending wood is june-ish enough. if we agree that the archdemon is slain six months prior as the game states, but it must have been in 9:31, then the fifth blight ended and the archdemon was slain in wintermarch/veremensis, which is january. what a hideous time of year for medieval warfare.

in the dwarf noble origin, a codex entry featuring the journal entries of trian aeducan (who dies during the origin, pre-ostagar), has dates through ferventis, going right up to the events of the origin. which would place the fifth blight as the 6-7 months from june/justinian 9:30 to january/wintermarch 9:31. is that fairly reasonable? seems fairly reasonable to me

the reasons you might take that with a grain of salt are firstly that wynne has dialogue during the game referencing it being “almost a year” since a mage warden left the tower, although i think we can discard this because it can literally trigger at any point in the game once she’s recruited, making it sometimes baffling. secondly, a complete dwarven pregnancy takes place between the dwarven origins and a dwarf warden’s return to orzammar (brosca’s nephew, or potentially a male aeducan’s son), not to mention oghren manages to have a child in the six months between dao and awakening. they clearly handwaved this a bit, and i think it’s fair to brush it aside with small hc timeline edits if you have a dwarf warden, or the suggestion that dwarves have shorter pregnancies than humans, which is a nice bit of fantasy variation to throw in there

but shoutout to the implication that doing orzammar last is most amenable to canon and that the warden had to cross gherlen’s pass to orzammar and back in the thick of a fereldan winter, because that’s horrific

[vigilskeep]

Hi can you elaborate on 'isabela is grieving for a large portion of da2'? 👀

oh sure! the only thing i mean by it is that, um, isabela was shipwrecked just before you meet her. she loses her ship, the siren’s call, which was once her husband’s and which has been hers since she commandeered it the night zevran assassinated him. it’s been her home, the source of her income and lifestyle, and the marker of her freedom and independence for years. on top of that, in her own words, “i managed to make it to shore. most of my men weren’t as lucky. poor sods. i knew some of those men almost ten years.” she’s audibly emotional when she says this, her voice gets quieter and sadder and she does this slight laugh at herself for it because she recognises it. worth noting that they’re the people she knew best for the last decade, and that she as their captain is responsible for the chase with the qunari they died in and the risky choice to sail into the storm to get away. she uses the same genuine tone bringing up her crewmates on one or two other occasions—she has this ambient line to hawke that’s something like, “i knew a sailor like you once. we lost him in a hurricane. very sad” which always makes me laugh sorry isabela bc it’s so out of nowhere but her tone IS genuine on the “very sad”—and while i don’t think she let men under her command particularly close, she led them and cared about them and they’re gone

idk i just think it’s underdiscussed how hard a hit she took. clearly nobody who survived stuck around and she seems to spend a significant portion of her time drinking decidedly alone in the hanged man. isabela’s all about chasing the next fight and pressing on to the next thing and not looking back, but people who never slow down tend to be running from what they’d have to think about if they did. she’s good at rolling with punches and staying on her feet, but for me it’s hard to argue that what happened to her men isn’t partly responsible for the distance she tries to keep with hawke, and especially how she deals with the whole arishok conflict. even after hawke duels for her life, she apparently avoids them for the whole three year act break, having convinced herself they’re better off without her. after all, her crew followed her into that fight too, and look what happened to them

[vigilskeep]

oh what is your personal characterization of irving? i'm so interested on your take on him

this ask got sent after i answered another one, so i’ll start with what i said there: in many ways, irving and greagoir are the intended ideal of a first enchanter and knight-commander. world of thedas vol2 says: “it is a surprise to many that irving often credits knight-commander greagoir for his success as first enchanter. [...] though their friendship was never entirely without conflict, mutual respect and understanding resulted in a working partnership rarely seen in the circle leadership.” (i consider the first part a veiled joke at greagoir’s expense but that’s my very specific irving characterisation lmao.)

i think irving is clever before he is anything else. one of the things that separates the mage origin out from any other is that irving is making it happen. he is setting you up to be recruited by the grey wardens and succeeds no matter what you do. he talks you up to duncan, he sets you up to talk with duncan yourself, he’s aware of jowan’s secret relationship and his blood magic, and no matter what happens he completely handles the situation so he’s talking like he’s on the templars’ side and only grudgingly letting you go when he in fact planned it from the first. it’s mesmerising. i love it for him. that’s why he’s such a good first enchanter. that’s why he’s the guy who can be so trusted by the templars that on his word alone they will not annul a literally demon infested circle, even when he has been trapped in said demon infested circle. that’s why kinloch hold is the most lenient circle in thedas and you can find enchanters wandering the map by themselves with full circle permission. that’s why anders is alive. because irving is that good at his job. and because greagoir is the right blend of dutiful and not as smart as he is for him to be able to get away with it. this being my reasoning for guessing the above is maybe a veiled joke. irving credits greagoir for his own success because of what he has been able to get away with

that being said, irving is a very flawed man: he is so committed to the game he is playing, to scoring one against the templars and for his own side, that he’s forgotten part of his compassion for the mages under his care. some are protected, like anders and the mage warden, but others, like jowan and any other young mages so desperate and afraid they try blood magic, are sacrificed like pawns, thrown to the wolves for the safety of the whole. (although i do think it is remarkable that in the encounter irving designed, jowan manages to... miraculously disappear from a pre-arranged trap in the middle of the circle tower surrounded by templars. the chantry sister got sent to aeonar and the young mages got out free. like i’m just saying that’s convenient. things turned out pretty well for the mages, there. hmmm.)

so what does all that say for irving’s characterisation. how do i summarise a guy in one ask. uhhh i think he’s bitterly bitterly angry from a life spent under the control of the templars and he wants every win he can scrape away. i think he cares a lot abt the mages under his care but tends to do so specifically rather than for them all, because the sheer number of them (and the sheer number of them who will be lost, who he has seen lost year after year and has had to manage as tranquil or watch the templars kill) is simply exhausting. i think he’s capable of being funny in a sharp dry way with terrible gallows humour among his fellow senior enchanters and perhaps occasionally with his favoured students (possibly an influence on some of anders’ lines). i think he has high expectations of loyalty and ability from his fellow mages because he would expect no less from himself; the guy’s still forcing out the words to tell you to stop uldred after being tortured for who knows how long and then he’s complaining abt having to take the stairs down like a true old man. i think he arranged for the mage warden to become a grey warden partly because of the influence he believed his student might be able to hold if they proved themself on behalf of all mages, and partly because he just wanted them to be free

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Thoughts on Anders going from being very outgoing and flirty fun in the dlc to being a bit more introverted and careful in da2? Is it bc he and Justice has merged, his mental health degrading, or his new "freedom" turned into a new kind of prison?or anything else? Or all of them? God I love the anders meta

lots of thoughts! most prominently, i think anders has literally become a whole other separate person as well as himself, on account of being possessed. i do very much consider anders to also be justice throughout da2, not just when he starts glowing. imo that shows in, like, all their dialogue. i mean, let’s reverse the question: why is anders-justice’s dialogue in da2 so outgoing and flirty when justice is so serious and literal in awakening? because now anders is also there. so why is anders-justice more serious and literal than awakening anders? because justice is also there. here’s some quick comparisons of location comments from justice to anders-justice:

that’s justice, right? he’s in there! i’m not saying anders isn’t there, too, it sounds a lot more like anders in tone because it’s coming through anders, but these are just the ones i picked as being obviously justice-y when you make the comparison. you can see it in a lot of the companion banters, too. for example, justice finds it very difficult to agree to disagree or laugh off a challenge in the way anders used to be able to, which i think comes through most obviously with fenris and merrill, but a lot of the others, too. awakening justice often has several connected banters in succession; once he gets a thought into his head, once something distresses him abt one of his companions, he can’t let it go or leave it alone, because he’s still figuring out how to navigate the fact that people are complex and incongruous and so is the world they live in. he thinks everything is black and white and if he just explains enough then everyone can understand. which is far more like da2 anders-justice than something like this:

in da2 making these kinds of comparisons between others and himself is still his go-to method of trying to convince people, it’s a very anders move, but the way he backs off here is not something justice or anders-justice is capable of. awakening anders tries to let everything glance off him. having justice kind of cripples his ability to use that defence mechanism. i mean, that’s half the point of the whole possession. letting justice possess him was about taking the injustices done to the mages seriously and doing something about it. but it also makes him incapable of playing it off as a joke like he used to, he has to take everything personally

another example of justice in da2 anders-justice dialogue is the way he believes in atonement and retribution, that actions must have consequences even if he’s not always certain how it should actually happen in the real world and he struggles to understand real world context. justice has related conversations with nathaniel and sigrun about their criminal pasts, but for quick comparison’s sake, here’s banters with velanna and isabela:

a lot to say here but my point is not to make judgements, mainly just to compile evidence that justice is always a part of him? and the personality change really makes complete sense when you look at it from that angle. how would that not change how you act. anders-justice saying things that awakening anders would never have said is no less surprising imo than anders-justice saying things justice would never have said (and anders-justice does sound like awakening anders way more than people give him credit for)

otherwise, the mental health Situation is definitely also part of it. he’s not doing well. lirene says she’s never seen him smile. but i also think it’s a mistake to think awakening anders is even comparatively a paragon of mental health because, oh boy! he’s manic he’s so so angry right under the surface he’s fresh out of a year in solitary confinement. he NEEDS you to like him and to not take him seriously because people thinking he’s charming and harmless is literally the only reason he’s alive but also it would kill him to purposefully be what an authority figure who controls whether he lives or dies wants out of him so he’s settled for being funny with increasing desperation. you could make a whole other post out of this. my point is i just think it’s a misread of anders to be like “oh he was completely fine and normal in awakening and then it really went downhill between that and da2 and that’s why he’s not as funny now”. if that makes sense? the funnymanning was the symptoms all along i am afraid

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aside from questions of anders' and justice's like. autonomy "from" each other can we talk about how clearly anders just fucking misses him. this has tormented me for a decade. like there's a lot of ways you could go with that but man the ways that everyone else around anders can talk about justice like this unfortunate thing that happened /to him/ and you get some quiet moments where it seems like anders has been grieving for /years/ and can't process it out loud because (you know, whatever your personal read on them is) everyone around him acts like it's a. purely negative haunting. and why in the world would he have any sympathy for justice. anyway justanders shipping is pure hell <3

one of the things i love abt having bethany around is that she’s the most compassionate abt justice having been a person anders cared abt. thinking abt this banter always

and also this dialogue from the tranquillity quest

Hawke: This spirit sounds like a useful friend to have.

Anders: He was far better to me than I have been to him. To live outside the Fade, he needed a host. I offered to help him... [...] I thought I was helping my friend. He would have... died, I guess. If that even means anything. And he wanted to help me. He knew what mages have suffered.

Bethany: You tried to help a friend. Surely no harm can come of that.

Anders: I wish I still had your innocence.

there’s other parts of this dialogue that come to mind, he lingers so much over the absence of/alteration of justice with “he... changed” and “he’s gone now. he’s part of me. it’s not like we can... have a conversation” and “he comes out. and he is no longer my friend justice”... anyway the way that anders has been alone since he fled the grey wardens and lirene the only person we know he was talking to pre meeting hawke had never seen him smile and his friend justice is always there with him but now frightening and changed and also unreachable because they can’t truly talk. until hawke showed up had he even gotten to talk abt what happened with justice to anyone? all this for a very sociable guy who has solitary confinement trauma. he even had to leave his cat behind. man

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Dunno if this this ask makes much sense, but how do you suppose Irving’s favoritism looks day to day? Barring extreme circumstances like Anders’ escapes from Kinloch Hold…I imagine it’s probably just additional responsibility and tutorship, but I also doubt Anders would have agreed with that so maybe it depends on the individual? Maybe with some mages he thinks are promising he’ll intervene, but otherwise leave them alone? Idk

ok SO

while i have compared the two to make funney posts, there is actually a distinction between irving's Anders Style Favouritism Behaviour and his Mage Warden Style Favouritism Behaviour. irving's favouritism to anders is notable in comparison to his lack of preference for someone like jowan, clearly seeing one as dangerous and to be sacrificed for the greater good, and the other as harmless and charming and generally of value/salvageable. (irving's all or nothing perspective towards blood magic comes into play here.) irving was "endeared" to him, and it was irving who "in particular looked upon anders with sympathy", counselled the templars to make allowances for him, and warned him against going too far after karl was sent away, because at some point he would no longer be able to protect him. the style of day-to-day interaction during anders' circle days is probably shown in this from irving's codex: "he can soothe templars angered by some childish magical prank at the same time that he lauds the pranksters, and everyone walks away satisfied." irving probably let him get away with a lot when it was harmless, and his fondness shows in his continued efforts to protect a troublemaker who had been trying to flee the circle since he arrived. it's clear that he cared about the kid! and continued to care about him no matter anders' less than grateful response, even after everything: "when asked if he regretted not punishing anders more severely, perhaps with tranquillity, irving only sighed and would not discuss the matter further."

but i emphasise that irving cared because all of this is more of a personal attachment, simply an interest taken in, and a fondness for, a young mage of the circle who happened to by nature stood out. it's not suggested that anders necessarily had the specific, formal relationship or day-to-day interaction that irving and the mage warden have: mentor and apprentice. in kinloch hold, each apprentice has a specific mentor; keili mentions her mentor, you meet wynne's apprentice during her personal quest, various ambient dialogue mages discuss their mentor or their apprentice, etc. etc. and because they are the specialest little guy, amell/surana's mentor is the first enchanter himself! irving has talked about your progress personally to loghain himself prior to ostagar, wynne can potentially say at ostagar "you advanced so quickly in your training that irving never sent you to work under me" (i imagine this is suggesting wynne helps tutor most young mages), people like uldred refer to you as "irving's star pupil", duncan says "i am sure irving is very proud to have had you as a pupil", irving of course personally recommends you to the wardens and ensures your recruitment, etc. etc.

while i imagine the mage warden had many other teachers, as irving is responsible for the entire tower and also not the most powerful mage in it for a star student to learn from, irving would presumably be primarily responsible for the mage warden's education. it would be irving they went to for tutorship or if they had any difficulties. keili says that her mentor allows only a certain amount of time a day for religious contemplation, so they clearly have authority over their apprentices' daily life and curriculum. irving after all says to the mage warden after the harrowing "take your time to rest, or study in the library. the day is yours", and i would imagine he usually has more specific plans for them to... do more studying in the library. (it's kinloch, what else are you going to do?) i very much doubt irving's teaching was just magic, too! irving is a competent mage, but his greatest skills and primary interests are administration and diplomacy. there's a reason people keep recognising you as irving's favoured student; he's setting you up to be a political player, and he's the one who successfully organises you becoming a grey warden. i imagine any mage warden would have a grounding in the associated skills

it is of course up to the player's choice whether irving's favouritism for the mage warden would have also had to involve smoothing things over with the templars like he did for anders. it may also be up for hc whether anders was indeed his apprentice too; to my knowledge there's no information on a specific mentor for anders, though considering the detail with which world of thedas covers their relationship it seems odd that being his primary teacher wouldn't come into it. it's not necessarily required for anders' mentor to have been a fellow spirit healer/creation specialist, as it's not like the mage warden was specialised when they finished their apprenticeship or like they have to follow any of irving's magical preferences, so that's no reason he couldn't be. (i checked and irving actually does have more spells in creation than any other school. i'm not going to analyse that spell list too hard right now because we could genuinely be here forever.) i would assume that circle mages only tend to specialise after their apprenticeship is completed anyhow, kind of like how you'd only do a degree after you finish high school. also because, you know. why invest in specialist training before you know if the kid's going to make it through the harrowing, am i right

as an aside it kind of alters irving's vibe a lot what kind of mage warden you play. but i think it's very interesting that he clearly cared about anders and that he is so invested in the mage warden and publicly proud of their talent regardless of whether they're loyal or defiant, studious or disobedient, amell or surana

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@komsomolka the codex entry is this:

irving is an interesting guy, extremely cunning and manipulative, who is willing to lure those apprentices willing to explore blood magic into trying it and then expose them. that’s objectively horrible! but his stated reasoning is: “deviant traits must be exposed early, or the whole of the circle suffers”. so i wouldn’t want to discuss this without saying a) that irving like all circle mages is locked in a life or death struggle and is trying to preserve the majority of the circle, although that does mean he has lost sight of his compassion for these apprentices, and b) that it’s the chantry who taught both irving and anders that blood mages are evil, and i can see why any circle mage would be desperate to prove that it’s an innate “deviant trait”, and as long as we can get rid of those mages the rest of us are fine and normal we promise

i’ve never betrayed jowan but i’m pretty sure that if you do, he wants you to still go along with jowan’s plan specifically so that he can bring jowan’s chantry girlfriend down with him. if the mages are going to lose one, then the templars are going to lose one; he’ll expose jowan but he wants an eye for an eye. yes what irving does sucks and he’s by no means a good guy but he is this cutthroat because that’s what rising to power in a circle involves. as for his perspective on mage rights, i wouldn’t say he has immaculate politics or anything but he’s certainly in favour of more freedom for the circle. here’s what he has to say if the mage warden asks the crown for freedom for the circle after slaying the archdemon:

hating blood magic isn’t an extreme opinion it’s to be expected of any circle mage without it really saying much abt their political leanings. i believe world of thedas vol 2 also confirmed irving protected anders from being made tranquil between his escape attempts but i cannot be bothered to get up and check. anyway as an aside it’s worth noting that in the above codex entry, he’s clearly sharing what he’s doing with the other enchanters, so someone like wynne is just as culpable

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#so do they bury or burn their dead whats the deal also ive literally been wondering the same thing for forever. did they only burn the corpses in redcliffe because they were trying to avoid undead? WHATS GOING ONNN

it’s definitely andrastian tradition at least in ferelden to burn your dead. alistair has a specific conversation about it at least with a dwarven warden and seems unaccustomed to/expresses discomfort with the dwarven preference for tombs, to which the dwarven warden can point out that it’s just as weird as burning your honoured dead, and alistair is like, okay yeah when you put it like that. a pyre is the most respectful way to deal with cailan’s body, and a hero of ferelden who sacrifices themself is burned (unless they’re a dwarf, iirc, in which case they are reclaimed by orzammar to be buried). so this is clearly considered the optimal funeral rite among fereldan andrastians

i would expect that most references to burial are writing mistakes, but it could also be that it’s traditional to bury the ashes, or that these references come from other and older traditions’ effect on language (the avvar seem to bury their dead and come from the same roots as the alamarri; dwarves and dalish elves seem to bury their dead), or that burning your dead is specifically so widely practised in ferelden; it’s a practice tied to the burning of andraste in which she was purified of sin, and might be most closely followed in the land of andraste’s birth. there are definitely andrastian nations where cremation is not practised, first and foremost nevarra

i for one would suggest that burning your dead is good practise anywhere in a world where walking corpses exist but who am i to judge

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so interested to hear your thoughts bc i love your supreme ability to take a haphazardly-written bioware arc and turn it into a thematically-coherent masterpiece. how does one do this with sera??

i could never get into her personally (found the way they wrote her voice a little contrived/“haha funney swearing and crude jokes”) and i struggled to figure out her core motivations somehow simultaneously being the red jenny “sticking up for little guy” stuff but also a complete alienation from elves and the actual people she wants to protect?

also found it weird how you can just 😭 kick her out any time when you can’t do that with anyone else afaik. i mean i didnt like her but ?? that was a Choice bioware

ah the big sera question

first of all, upfront, i adore sera. this is just a matter of personal taste that people are going to have or not have, and that’s completely fine! (although people have said before that my talking about certain characters has made them give those characters a second glance, and i hope i can do the same for sera for people who maybe haven’t given her a full shot !!) i am just personally delighted by her. i love the fun of her design and i love her combat style and i love the way she talks, how you have to think through what she’s saying to follow where exactly the line of thought went, and you don’t always get everything but that’s okay bc hurry up we’re already onto the next thing! as someone who uh doesn’t always find it the easiest to communicate verbally, i find it very relatable and freeing and charming that she talks as she pleases and dares anyone to challenge it and expects them to catch up. i love the side she brings out in people in banter and i’ve never regretted bringing her along in the party. i think she’s very pretty. i’m getting distracted we could be here a long time

one thing that really helped me figure out how i could play a seramance was bouncing between potential inquisitors until i got one that could use the way the inquisitor and sera’s interactions are written. a big flaw of the writing is that it pushes your character into a box. partly because of the style of comic relief it’s attempting, it forces you to play the “normal” one who can only be fondly bemused by sera at best and can never be unconditionally supportive, even the nicest options available sometimes coming across critical or condescending. the way i’m personally making that make sense to me is playing an inquisitor who has lived a fairly secluded life and is bewildered and stilted and awkward as she tries to navigate a kind of relationship she’s not accustomed to with a kind of person she’s not accustomed to. but she really is earnestly trying. and sera seems not to always get her either, so there’s this process of trying to figure each other’s language out that i’m personally finding very endearing!

obviously that isn’t for everybody. your inquisitor is whoever you want them to be! that’s just one way i’ve personally responded to the question of how you can take the admittedly flawed writing and work with it, and i’ll have to adapt something different with another inquisitor with a different background.

there’s a lot of specifics i don’t know about her backstory and where her story is going—as i say, i know a majority of spoilers, but i don’t have all the details—so i can’t completely elaborate on my thoughts on how she was written until i have all the information. i’ll have some more coherent comments on my actual opinion of sera’s writing as a whole then! but i will say as a final note i honestly find it a little startling how saying completely insensitive things abt elves rarely stops human characters from being continual fandom favourites—and that isn’t, like, a condemnation, i’m thinking of major characters like leliana and morrigan and anders and dorian who i love as well, that’s the nature of the setting and genre of dragon age and the questions it explores—but meanwhile sera, who is an elf and suffers from internalised prejudice that’s against herself as well, seems to be the one who gets so much of the heat? i’m just putting that out there as food for thought.

wait one more thing sorry. when she talks about the little people and the friends of red jenny and it’s confusing who she’s standing up for, i have to say in her defence i think it’s more than a little unfair to expect her to be remotely comparable in clarity of direction/ideology/purpose as the other inquisition companions and advisors, a sweeping majority of whom are major political figures or otherwise trained professionals in their 30s and 40s, when sera is literally just a random person in her very early 20s with a hell of a lot of initiative and talent. of course she hasn’t figured things out she’s too busy cutting her own bangs. you know?