ouch-thats-harsh

[stardust-falling]

Having more thoughts about Shen Jiu because of course I am.

I don’t think he has the capacity for empathy or genuine selflessness.

He spent the entirety of his formative years deep in survival mode, and because of that, he evaluates people solely based off of how they might threaten or ensure his safety and/or comfort. As far as individual people themselves with their own perspectives… honestly I don’t think he even thinks of that.

Maybe a controversial opinion, but I don’t think even YQY is exempt.

Shen Jiu doesn’t have a moral code. When every day is spent on surviving, a moral code is a luxury.

And really, he just never got out of that mode. See, the thing is, once you’ve had enough adverse experiences it only takes a little bit to trigger you back into that mindset. Shen Jiu was used to being scolded and then beaten or abused, so for him, even a simple chiding is a precursor to abuse— even if he DOES recognize that nothing more will happen, his body and mental patterns will still go into that preparation time.

So of course he never left survival mode, because even if nothing is actively happening, your mind will keep reinforcing those patterns.

For someone with a normal upbringing, as far as I can tell, empathy is something you learn and develop from those around you. Many seem to think it’s something innate and natural and if you don’t have it then there’s something wrong with you from birth. I think Shen Jiu falls into exactly this category of thought— and so he doesn’t even consider that he could try to learn and develop it as a skill he can perform, even if it doesn’t come naturally.

Of course, would he even try? He hasn’t been given any incentive. Any time he has tried to do something good, he ends up getting hurt (saving Yue Qi leading to being taken by QJL) or misinterpreted and admonished (the well ghost incident, keep in mind my earlier point about scoldings perpetuating the same patterns).

So he stays in that same vicious cycle, perpetually in survival mode and unable to escape, even in a relatively secure position (see: his paranoia).

Now, this is all relevant to the discussions of SJ’s feminism, misogyny, and/or lack thereof. I feel like a lot of discussions aren’t really getting the full picture.

SJ sees people, no matter who they are, as solely how they can affect him. Just because this isn’t exclusive to women, or because if comes from a reasonable place, does that really mean it doesn’t play into misogyny?

Let’s take another angle.

I think his abuse of LBH and other talented disciples also is rooted, deep down, in this same issue. He’s not just hurting LBH only to hurt him, his aim is specifically to stunt his cultivation. There’s jealousy at play there of course, but there’s a bit more layers to it too— SJ doesn’t think he’s capable of goodness. So reasonably, he’ll be a bad teacher. He already knows what happens when someone becomes more powerful than their oppressor. LBH may be a child now, but a part of SJ whether he acknowledges it or not sees him as a future threat that needs to be treated as such.

It’s rooted in fear— because everything is with SJ.

So does that mean it’s not actually abuse?

No. The behaviors he shows are still abusive, the reasoning just gives a lens for understanding.

Now, with his views on women— I mentioned in the tags of my original post that I don’t think he views women as people. This is based in that earlier idea of how he interprets others based off their risk and benefit to him. For women specifically, though, there’s another layer.

Shen Jiu grew up in a society where women are inherently lesser— and he grew up in an extreme version of this. He saw women being treated as property firsthand(both as slaves, as well as QJL’s views on his sister). Your worldview is shaped by the world that you view during those early years. Whether he agreed or not, SJ would still take on the patterns of his environment. This, though, is just the same as general societal misogyny and ingrained bias. I don’t think he’s any different than anyone else in this way.

But where SJ’s particular flavor comes in is that to him, women are a source of comfort. For various reasons— positive past experiences, less threatening (or at least don’t carry the dangers men do). He craves comfort— needs it really, because he doesn’t get it and his cortisol levels are always so high they’re poisoning his body. Women are the best source of that comfort for him.

It’s not that he likes them— at least, not any more than someone would like drinking water, or a coat in the winter. They’re fulfilling a survival need for him.

That is what the objectification is where SJ is concerned.

So… is it misogyny?

I’d say yes, in a way it still is. It’s not violent, and it doesn’t come from some inherent sense of “superiority as a man” but at the core of it all, he’s still not viewing women as people, and he has no interest in changing the status quo, because it benefits him to be able to go purchase comfort at a pleasure house, even if it’s not what people usually do there. The picture is bigger than just misogyny, but the traits taken as themselves are misogynistic nonetheless.

I could go into his specific relationships with women and how that informs his character, but this post is already long enough. We know that he mentally divides people by sex, and that distinction has a lot of weight in his judgment of them. Even if it comes from a place of trauma, even if it comes from a general worldview that applies to everyone, he still views women as a commodity— so on some level, and from an outside perspective, he is misogynistic.

In the end, though, it still all comes from him being stuck in survival mode. His lack of empathy, his viewing others as risks and benefits— these things themselves aren’t moral failings— it’s just a consequence of his environment. He’s a bad person because he won’t confront this, develop a moral code, and act on it, not because he doesn’t experience empathy.

But in his circumstance, there’s not really a chance for him to choose to be good. Because he’s still trying to survive, and goodness is a luxury he doesn’t realize he can afford now.

He’s scum, but pitiful, you know?

[stardust-falling]

Anyway, Shen Qingqiu is not at all in any way trapped in a relationship with Luo Binghe.

He chose this.

As messy as it may be, as much as they might have to work through, as conflicted as he is in his own identity, in the end he’s the one who stepped forward, who decided to take Luo Binghe’s hand and go with him. Luo Binghe did not force him to do so— and based on his behavior after Maigu Ridge, it’s my opinion that if Shen Qingqiu had said he wanted nothing more to do with Luo Binghe, then Binghe would have accepted that (maybe more on this later).

Luo Binghe is Shen Yuan’s blorbo. He knows what he’s like. He knows the way he latches on— hell, he’s experienced it.

Shen Qingqiu chose Luo Binghe despite the difficulties because he cares about him. Not because he’s afraid, in the end. Not because there is no other choice. But because Binghe is important to him. Just like anyone might choose to stay with someone because they care about them, even if it isn’t always easy.

He accepted this relationship— and not only that, based on what we see in the extras, he also embraced it. During the extras, when we actually see them in an established relationship, Shen Qingqiu is not afraid of Luo Binghe at all. He’s not being held hostage, he’s not under duress. At most he’s a bit irritated at times, but that’s just the way he is.

Yes, Luo Binghe tried to destroy the world to have Shen Qingqiu to himself, but that was not the point where SQQ decided to go with him. Far, far too many people misunderstand this.

The ending of SVSSS does not depict SQQ resigning himself to his fate, becoming trapped with Luo Binghe.

Instead, he says “the story between you and me has only just begun.”

They’re building their relationship from the ground up. It’s something he wants, and something he wants to work towards. He wants to go with Luo Binghe, and he wants this relationship to be different than everything that happened in the past.

Shen Qingqiu is not trapped in a relationship, he chose this relationship because he genuinely loves Luo Binghe and cares about him. And, most importantly, he doesn’t regret choosing this.

[stardust-falling]

SVSSS fandom really needs to learn what “white lotus” really means because I feel like that would clear up a lot of arguments tbh.

Hint: it probably doesn’t mean what you think it means.

[stardust-falling]

One very neat thing I’ve seen with my fanon-debunking meta blog is how differently people react to the debunkings and analysis— not counting any bad faith responses, there are some people who feel vindicated when a popular interpretation is fanon, some people who are relieved when it isn’t entirely disproven, and some replies such as “it’s good to know where it comes from, but this is also an important head canon to me personally even if it goes against canon for <reasons>” and in the end, really, it’s important to remember that every person brings their own experiences to the way they interact with fandom— and that even when something goes against canon, fandom has been transformative from the beginning anyway.

As much as any one person might despise a certain interpretation, there’s another person who it’s equally important to. Personally, there are a lot of interpretations I don’t like and which even make me uncomfortable, but I do think people should still be able to enjoy fandom in the way that best suits them and resonates with them— in the end, I think fandom should stop thinking of OOC as a dirty word. You can write characters OOC to canon, if that’s what you like— if it’s tagged correctly there wouldn’t be half the issues there are. If you’re changing up the way a character behaves, their motivations, their worldviews from the way they are canonically, tagging the work as “<character> is OOC” and posting it is perfectly fine! I can’t say that you shouldn’t write such a story, or that you can’t find enjoyment, or catharsis, or whatever else in it because that’s none of my business.

OOC isn’t inherently bad— when it’s a choice being made for the story. I think a lot of the issues come when the OOC behavior isn’t tagged, because then readers will assume that the way the character is being written is the way you interpret canon.

TLDR; transformative works that change aspects of characters even if directly against canon are perfectly fine and morally neutral actually, please just tag OOC if you’re writing it so that people expecting and looking for canon-accuracy won’t think you’re just misinterpreting canon. That would save creators a lot of “actually this is canonically incorrect” messages, and let others avoid interpretations they’re not looking for.

[stardust-falling]

Hello.... Can I ask your top 5 (or top 3) favorite characters from SVSSS? And why you loved them? And your top 5 favorite moments from the series? Thanks if you want to answer....

Top 5 favorite characters:

1 - Shen Jiu 2/3 - Yue Qingyuan, Shen Yuan 4/5 - Luo Binghe, Gongyi Xiao

Honestly, it's super hard to decide my favorites, hence the 2/3, 4/5 here lmao. Depending on the meaning of "like" I really don't dislike any SV characters (obviously OPM, QJL, WYZ can go get fucked if we're talking about emotional affection/blorbofication, but I do still enjoy them in a meta sense for their roles in the story). But because SJ is both my favorite in terms of "I feel affection for this character and he is my little scrungly blorbo" as well as "I want to study him under a microscope like a bug" he gets the top spot easily.

Top five favorite moments is pretty hard too, since things are my favorite for different reasons... So I'll pick my favorite scenes for analysis, not necessarily for emotional reaction or attachment, in no particular order. Going under a cut because I rambled, as usual:

I really, really like the entire Holy Mausoleum arc, but I specifically like the part where SQQ and LBH are confronted by OPM and QHT. I feel like it's here that we can really see beneath the unreliable narrator and actually see that SQQ truly does love LBH back. Holy Mausoleum in general just says a lot about Bingqiu without saying it directly, and I do encourage everyone who thinks that SQQ doesn't actually love LBH back please reread that part while looking for it because damn, SQQ's narration tries to hide how much he actually cares for this boy.

Qijiu extras, the scene in the Lingxi caves. Between SJ's paranoid and irrational internal monologue that shows that despite everything, he really doesn't actually see himself as he is or as a legitimate peak lord, Yue Qingyuan's appearance at a critical moment to keep SJ from spiralling past the point of no return (contrasting this to his inability to return to Qiu Manor in time), the fact that even though they are not on good terms, YQY is still able to calm SJ down from qi deviation, and that SJ tolerates both his presence and his touch, it shows a lot that despite his paranoia and his hurt, a part of Shen Jiu still trusts Yue Qingyuan. The fact that it's revealed that they're in the very cave that YQY was trapped in with Xuan Su is just the icing on the cake... the truth is laid out before them, just a step from being revealed, but still isn't... I just think this scene really is so important to show how 79's relationship stands on a deep level, both the trust that is still there as well as the barriers.

Skinner demon confrontation, after they're captured. The irony of the first mission being to take down a demon that's literally wearing someone else's identity as their own is great. There's also Luo Binghe's sexual awakening upon seeing SQQ shirtless, which is honestly quite funny to me as an ace person. But my favorite thing, I think, is the way that SQQ sets up Die'er's defeat by using LBH as bait which, while it is successful due to the genre's conventions, also makes Luo Binghe's trust waver... it sort of sets the tone for the entire emotional conflict of the novel. Despite SQQ knowing that LBH will be fine, since it has all been decreed by plot, he underestimates how much it will hurt him-- and he's thinking about hurting LBH in terms of how it will affect SQQ himself later on, rather than LBH's own pain. Then, afterwards, SQQ leaves LBH behind to go into seclusion, he gives LBH the new manual but doesn't move him out of the woodshed, and there's no indication that Ming Fan's bullying stopped during that time either. When SQQ returns, he ends up sacrificing himself and taking the poisoned hit for LBH... in a way this all just parallels the actual plot of the novel in short-form and I think that's very, very neat.

The water prison arc-- everything from LBH's visit where he stops LPM from attacking SQQ, where SQQ refuses to answer LBH's question because of his inaccurate perception of the situation, LBH's volatile emotions in this sequence, Gongyi Xiao's assumptions that LBH had assaulted SQQ and SQQ's complete obliviousness to that possibility, plus just GYX being the best boy ever tbh, he doesn't deserve to live in this messed up book and certainly doesn't deserve to die. This sequence has so much about how inaccurate perceptions of situations can lead to wildly off-base interpretations and how a lack of proper communication can escalate a conflict where it really didn't need to escalate. The "perceptions and interpretations vs. reality" idea is another major theme in SV, and this sequence really showcases a lot of that in a clear way.

Maigu Ridge. This one's controversial. A lot of people have a lot of opinions about it and let me just make a disclaimer that I'm not including this one because I enjoyed reading it on an emotional level. Maigu Ridge is FUCKED UP!! It's a massively fucked up situation for all parties! It's uncomfortable, and definitely something that warrants a trigger warning before reading the book-- and yet, it's so interesting to analyze from a hypothetical standpoint because the situation is just so, so messy in terms of who gives consent and who doesn't-- and does anyone really have the option to consent here, since both parties are under the complete control of the narrative-- in terms of who hurts who, etc. There are a lot of little details to debate, and of course there's the instant, knee-jerk surface reaction that people get, which I can totally understand especially if you didn't go in expecting this sort of scene and ended up getting triggered by it, but once you start to peel back the layers you can actually find that this scene is way more complicated than 'one party as the aggressor/one party as the victim.' It's a deconstruction and subversion of tropes, but also a really interesting place to analyze themes of consent as a whole, and the effects on the individuals involved. For this, honestly, people just need to remember that these are fictional characters. It's not saying anything about IRL survivors, and I'm a major proponent of considering massively fucked up situations through a fictional lens in order to understand the shades of gray that may exist in similar but less-extreme situations in real life, without the possibility of your deliberations causing harm to any party since in the fictional scenario, since none of the characters are real (I can't even begin to tell you how much of my own trauma I've processed based on extreme fictional scenarios). But on the flip side, if the scene upsets you or triggers you, it's perfectly valid to dislike it! It's also perfectly valid for you to dislike the Bingqiu relationship because of it! It's not for everyone and I completely get that, but also, keep in mind that people analyzing the scene in different ways doesn't have anything to do with how they'd react to real-life situations. It's all about what works best for each person.

Anyway that last one got really long, just because I've seen so much knee-jerk reaction in fandom with it and tbh, I feel like I have to cover my bases these days.

A lot of people say that SVSSS is less well-written than MXTX's other books, and while it does have issues, I wouldn't say that the book isn't well-written. I have no idea how much of what I talked about in those scenes above is deliberately intentional storytelling and how much just sort of happened, but those are just some of the reasons that I really do think it's actually a very good book, genuinely, and not the only scenes at that, I just limited to five here.

I hope you enjoyed reading all my ramblings-- SVSSS brainrot is real and the hyperfixation is going strong haha.

[stardust-falling]

Something something Delusions being mass-produced and with identical capabilities while also harming the user while Visions are highly specific to each person's own life and ambitions and values with unique abilities that match their personalities and also strengthening them.

[stardust-falling]

Gotta get more efficient at drawing. Gotta make myself some Circe Saga animatics because I PERSONALLY don't see the kind of interpretation I wanna see enough/at all really? at least in a way that's made clear.