the-conversation-pod

[the-conversation-pod]

The Untamed Episodes: The Second Life

AND WE'RE BACK

In Part 2 of our Untamed discussion, Ben, NiNi, Shan (@lurkingshan) and Bookworm (@neuroticbookworm) talk about our love for Jiang Cheng, our hatred for Meng Yao/Jin Guangyao, and why we will always hold out hope for more Chinese BL.

If you missed Part 1, you can check it out here.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00 - Welcome 00:55 - Intro: More Notes From The Future 01:45 - The Second Life 09:23 - The Second Life: The Fallout of Wei Wuxian's Choices 16:52 - The Second Life: Meng Yao's Dastardly Deeds 26:52 - The Second Life: The Tragedy of Wen Ning 32:35 - The Second Life: Two 'Fools' 37:41 - The Second Life: Various Random Musings 48:18 - Page to Screen (and Audio, and Anime, and Stage, and…) 56:59 - Afterlife: The Impact of The Untamed on BL and Fandom

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic.

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the VIIBs queen.

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL.

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:55 Intro: More Notes From the Future

Ben 

And we're back. We're gonna continue with our huge two part episode on The Untamed. We finally bullied NiNi into watching it. We got her into the booth with Shan and our good friend Bookworm. I really hope you listened to the last episode because we're going right into Wei Wuxian's second life. 

NiNi

The second life is so much fun. There's some stuff we talk about in here that I could have continued talking about forever. 

Ben

No more beehive commentary from you right now. 

NiNi 

No more beehives, but I just want the world to know that I love Jiang Cheng. 

Ben 

Ah, that poor boy. What a hot mess of a man. Angry purple man. 

NiNi 

My angry purple dream boat, how dare you. 

01:55 The Second Life

Ben 

On to the second life.

Shan 

So this is after Wei Wuxian is resurrected, 16 years after his death. The Jin clan is now holding the most power in the cultivation world. They have the chief cultivator position. Jin Guangyao has had a meteoric rise to power in the time Wei Wuxian has been gone. His father has died. He has gotten married. He has an heir. 

We also have a whole new generation of junior cultivators along for the ride with us, notably Jin Ling, the son of Jiang Yanli and Jin Zixuan. Lan Sizhui, whose identity is a mystery that's not very well concealed. [laughs] Although, we did not mention our beautiful A-Yuan in the first life, just know that we love him dearly.

Ben 

There's too many things to mention. I didn't even go off on an extended period about Madam Jiang beatin’ the shit out of people.

Shan 

I know, right. 

[all laugh]

NiNi

She was such a bitch, but she came through when it mattered, my God.

Shan 

There's so many characters here, but please know that we love them all dearly even if we haven’t gotten the chance to talk about them all. A-Yuan is very close in our hearts.

Ben

We would just be screaming his name for like five minutes.

Shan

Yes! [laughs] So Lan Sizhui is who we come back to in this new timeline and Lan Jingyi is also around, his best friend—his lifelong bosom companion, you might say. 

Major storylines in the second life. We, of course, have Wuxian getting resurrected in Mo Xuanyu’s body, although in the show it's just the same actor the whole time because they didn't want to do that to us mentally, which I appreciate. He is supposed to settle his grudges as part of that spiritual agreement for his resurrection. So he is pursuing the folks who harmed Mo Xuanyu. The big mystery unfolds with trying to figure out the last grudge that he holds. That aligns with unraveling the big mystery of the hidden foes from the first life.

Jin Guangyao, aka Meng Yao, is the villain behind most of the horrible things that happened in the first timeline. And also getting up to all kinds of other noxious shit like marrying his own sister, killing his own son because he's an incest baby, murdering his father via a gaggle of prostitutes, fucking him to death.

NiNi 

That's a thing that happened, people!

Shan 

Yeah, real normal stuff over there. And recruiting a number of folks to do his dirty work, including villains Su She and Xue Yang. He is a half brother to Mo Xuanyu and responsible for a lot of what he went through, as well. So he's just all up in the business. He also murdered Nie Mingjue and tricked Lan Xichen into being complicit in all of that. 

While that's happening, Wuxian is reunited with Wangji. They are following these clues.

Ben 

I'm sorry, we have to be clear that, like, by following the clues we mean Wei Wuxian wakes up. It's like, “Wow, this place sucks. Whoa, where'd that arm come from? All right, let's put this arm in a bag. Well, the arm’s pointing that way. I guess we're going there now.”

Shan 

That's only in the book, bestie.

Bookworm 

So, in the show it's actually just a sword spirit. 

Shan 

The book is way more gruesome. There’s, like, body parts, it’s a whole thing. The show is a little simpler.

Ben

Okay, yeah, they use a sword but it’s literally like, “oh okay, I guess we’re going east? All right.”

Shan

[laughs] Yeah, the sword points them in the direction they should go to follow some clues.

As Wangji and Wuxian work together to follow the sword spirit, unravel the mystery, the juniors are along for the ride. There is a very devastating arc in Yi City where they meet Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan, who we had briefly encountered in the first timeline, and unravel a whole plot about them being tormented by Xue Yang, who is fucking evil. Very much a fan favorite arc, I think.

Bookworm 

It is the best arc and this is also the most tragic arc.

Shan 

It's quite sad.

Bookworm 

Nobody knew what was going on. Everybody got tricked into it. 

Ben 

The Yi City arc is pretty brutal because we basically see how Meng Yao has orchestrated these complex events to torture and murder people he doesn’t like. Xue Yang does the same thing to two roaming cultivators—not boyfriends—which culminates in him turning one of them into a puppet akin to Wen Ning and then driving the other one to death by making him commit evil acts unknowingly. Which is… diabolical.

Shan

After the Yi City arc, that is when Wuxian and Wangji discover the truth of Nie Mingjue's death, which was very intentionally perpetuated by Meng Yao. By unraveling that, they caught on to his whole evil shit. This all culminates in a confrontation at Guanyin Temple where Meng Yao is fully unmasked, Nie Mingjue's corpse rises and is really out for some revenge—which, fair enough, I would be too. Jiang Cheng confronts Wei Wuxian after learning about the golden core transfer that he never consented to. And we finally learn that Nie Huaisang was actually the one who was behind Wei Wuxian's resurrection and orchestrated this whole mystery plot as a way to get revenge on Meng Yao for murdering his brother. 

While these plot things are happening, there are a couple emotional arcs going on. There is, of course, the continuation of the Jiang family drama and the tension between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian, which is now complicated by the involvement of Jin Ling, who is Wei Wuxian's nephew and has grown up an orphan because of Wei Wuxian's behavior. Jiang Cheng needs to learn the truth about Wei Wuxian giving him his core. And they have to kind of work through all of their emotions about that, which don't come to any kind of satisfying resolution, because how the fuck could they?

And then finally, there is of course the reunion second chance romance between Wuxian and Wangi. Honestly, their adult romance is so great. Wuxian is resurrected. He immediately reconnects with Wangji. He's having some fascinating mix of memory loss and obliviousness that is his signature and some just emotional denial about the feelings between them. Wangji is having none of that. He is very clear on the fact that he is in love with this man, sticking to his side like glue and not letting anyone hurt him again. So they are traveling together while they solve this mystery. They're having all kinds of very fun ship moments, lots of cute stuff happening. Wangi's getting drunk a lot. 

Ben 

There's a piggyback scene.

Shan

There's definitely some piggybacking happening.

NiNi

There's a definite wedding. I mean, these guys have gotten married like at least three times in the show.

Shan 

Right, exchanging of chickens, very important stuff. [NiNi and Shan laugh] And, of course, standing together publicly in this second life in a way that Wangji was not able to do for Wuxian in the first life. He declares himself very much unambiguously on Wuxian's side in front of all the other clans. He does not give a shit anymore. 

And then of course we learn over the course of this arc that Sizhui is A-Yuan and that Wangji rescued him after Wuxian's death, brought him into the Lan clan and raised him. Wow, what a fuckin’ man. 

They end on an ambiguous note because this is a censored cdrama. [laughs] So instead of the book ending, which involves them getting married and fucking in a field, we get Lan Zhan—very out of character—deciding to become the chief cultivator [laughs] and Wuxian going to travel alone and them having an ambiguously implied reunion right at the very end of the show. But we all know that they got married and had a lot of sex. That's what happened. 

So, yeah. That is the second life in a nutshell.

09:33 The Second Life: The Fallout of Wei Wuxian's Choices

NiNi 

There are two or three really big things that stand out for me, in this arc. One is just seeing Wei Wuxian's regrets. He's looking back at his life like, wow, maybe I shouldn't have done that like that. Or, wow, I was such an arrogant kid, I should have thought about these things in a different way. You see him having regrets as he sees the outcomes of the choices that he made in his first life. 

Alongside that, the choices that he made in his first life have made him kind of a folk anti-hero. He's now the scary story that parents tell their kids about, “Be good or the Yiling Patriarch will come get you.” He's wearing another face, so people generally don't know it's him. So he gets to hear how people are talking about him 16 years later. And he's realizing, “Fuck, I was evil.”

Shan 

He's like, “I did kinda do a genocide. That was my bad.”

Ben 

We really should not downplay that this man literally killed thousands of cultivators.

Shan 

He sure did.

NiNi 

Thousands of people out of anger and arrogance. I mean, you saw how it built up because he really was just trying to mind his own business and everybody kept poking him, but he still killed thousands of people ‘cause he got mad.

Shan

These other clans that hate him, it's for a reason. It's ‘cause he killed all of their family members. It's not some minor petty grudge.

NiNi 

Well, in this arc, but when they hated him before, it was because he had power that they wanted and he wouldn't tell them how he got it.

Shan 

Yeah. In the second life, his reputation is in tatters and people hate him because he killed everybody they love. Which is fair, in my opinion.

NiNi 

It's absolutely fair, completely fair. Totally understand that. 

So that arc is a really interesting arc for me because it carries through all the various relationships. It carries through his relationship with Jiang Cheng because at the end when Jiang Cheng is like, well, what am I supposed to fucking do with this? Okay, you saved my life, but also, hi, got my entire family killed.

Shan 

Fully.

NiNi 

Am I supposed to thank you? I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this.

Shan 

Jiang Cheng was spitting nothin’ but facts in that temple.

NiNi 

Nothing but facts. He was a hundred percent  correct. And he's stuck in this place now because he loves Wei Wuxian. But at the same time, basically his family opened their home to this man and he got them all killed.

Ben

Objection!

Bookworm

Thank you, Ben. 

Ben 

Wei Wuxian did not murder the Jiang clan. The Wens did, and they were going to do it anyway. Wen Chao's active abuse of the hostages was a prelude to them eventually getting killed. When he left them in the cave like that, he intended for them all to die. Wei Wuxian is not the reason why the Wens sacked Lotus Pier. Madam Jiang may be mad because she believes that her husband is probably Wei Wuxian's father, unconfirmed.

Bookworm

Uh-huh.

NiNi 

Pretty much, yep.

Ben

But like, that boy is not the reason why the Wen Clan went on a tear to slaughter their way to more power.

Shan 

That's true. But he is culpable for Jiang Yanli’s death and that is the one that hurts the most.

Ben

Yes, that part he is.

Bookworm 

I also want to make it clear, like, she ran into a battlefield. That woman gave a month old child to somebody and then she just ran into a battlefield. [laughs]

Shan 

Listen, no one's saying Yanli was the smartest bulb. We're not with some of her choices, but NiNi's point, from Jiang Cheng's point of view, is correct.

Bookworm 

That's true. The facts and the emotions that he was spitting at that moment was very true. 

The reason why the story is so compelling is that you have all of these people who had taken very personal losses and they have very personal emotions that are connected to, basically, a political war for power. What are the motivations behind the people who ultimately want to be at the top? What will they do and how will they manipulate the narrative to just achieve that? If they get a scapegoat, all really good. I'm not saying that Wei Wuxian didn't do all of those things. He killed a whole bunch of people, and he was a dumbass who refused to talk to anybody. 

Ben

I'm just being clear that my client, who did kill thousands of people, [all laugh] did not specifically kill his own clan. He shot the sheriff, but he did not shoot the deputy. All right, let's be clear here.

[NiNi laughs] 

Shan 

Let's get back on track, folks. We got a lot of content to get through. 

The reason that Jiang Cheng's arc is so compelling is because, if you think about things from his perspective… like, wow, what the fuck happened to this kid? He was a teenager when his home was destroyed and his parents were murdered in front of him. His brother then—from his point of view—abandoned him, left the clan, to go protect a different family. Adopted new siblings that he prioritized over Jiang Cheng. Never explained himself. Started doing evil shit. Would not tell him anything about why he was doing these things. Ultimately started a battle that culminated in the death of their sister. And then jumped off a cliff. That is what Jiang Cheng's brother did to him, from his perspective. 

And so, it is not hard to understand why he both loves and hates him in equal measure, why he struggles so much to understand him and why he wants to forgive him, but he can't. And Wei Wuxian can never make it right. He made these huge mistakes that they can never come back from. They will never be able to trust each other and be close again.

Ben 

My favorite thing about Jiang Cheng is the emotional core of why he's so mad at Wei Wuxian is Wei Wuxian will never let him be useful. Jiang Cheng feels like he got no credit for getting them out of the cave. He loses his core because he was trying to save Wei Wuxian. He thought he was gonna die, and he doesn't get to have a noble death. He gets turned into a mundane person. 

Then Wei Wuxian helps him get his core back so he can continue to be a cultivator. But then something's clearly wrong with his brother, he then disappears. And they find him again. He's trying to rebuild his clan. Wei Wuxian is supposed to be helping him, but it's clearly not the same. And he can't get through to him. Basically every time he thought he was doing something for Wei Wuxian, Wei Wuxian was doing something for him. But he constantly feels undercut by the brother he admires’ own excellence and ego. Like, he feels like he is forever playing second to Wei Wuxian and he can't ever get over that because now he has Wei Wuxian's core. And he knows that now by the end of the story.

Shan 

Oof. That's some, like, real mind fuck stuff.

NiNi 

Now he's stuck wondering if all the things that he's been and done since then are because of him or because he has Wei Wuxian's core and therefore because he's Wei Wuxian. So he doesn't ever know if he's good enough, now.

Ben 

Exactly.

Shan

My God. Jiang Cheng, they will never make me hate you.

NiNi 

Never, never!

Bookworm 

Never.

Ben 

I understand that angry purple man.

18:13 The Second Life: Meng Yao's Dastardly Deeds

Shan 

I feel like Bookworm should talk a little bit about the way the Meng Yao and Nie Mingjue and Xichen stuff plays out in this arc, ‘cause I know you have a lot of strong feelings about it.

[Bookworm and Shan laugh]

Bookworm 

All right, let's get to it.

Ben 

I really love when I can hear her getting all of her notes together. 

Shan 

She's getting organized.

Ben

I have to organize my slide deck.

Bookworm

I got notes! All right, so in the second arc, we only start by knowing that Nie Mingjue died this horrible death and we have this mystery of his sword and the sword spirit and leading them around. They're just solving the mystery of this murder who, at the time, they did not know that it was a murder. It comes to heads when they go to the Jin headquarters and solve this mystery by basically having Wei Wuxian turn into this tiny paper man and go and perform—I think it's called Empathy—on Nie Mingjue's severed head that is in Jin Guangyao’s secret closet. I cannot believe there are people who defend this man. [laughs]

We get flashbacks of Wei Wuxian finding out exactly how Meng Yao manipulated Xichen into bringing Nie Mingjue and all of them into this sworn brothers pact sort of thing, after the war, and how he used that to slowly erode Nie Mingjue's composure using tainted music. And finally it breaks him. He runs away and the official account is that he is lost, but we know that Jin Guangyao cut his head off with his own sword and then just keep it in his closet. Like a very normal person. 

The way this is revealed, you see all of the major players trying to understand what actually happened and why Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian chose to kind of have this confrontation with this man. And you can see how he pulls the thread in that scene so well. He orchestrated the action where Wei Wuxian pulls out the sword that was sealed because he lost his core and reveals his identity to everybody in attendance—who are all, we have already established, super mad at Wei Wuxian for killing all of their loved ones. And then you see him kind of imply that Lan Wangji has been seduced into helping Wei Wuxian. 

Ben 

He didn't use a homophobic slur, but we heard it.

Bookworm 

Right! Everybody kind of zeroes in on what Lan Wangji is going to do at this moment, and even Wei Wuxian expects him to remove himself from Wei Wuxian's side. He was worried about what this could mean to the Lan sect itself. So he was like, okay I’m just gonna fly solo from here. But it culminates, of course, with Lan Wangji standing by Wei Wuxian and declaring openly that he is gonna walk the single plank path in the dark till the end with him. Which is just, ah, so romantic. 

Jin Guangyao, he has basically very successfully isolated somebody who has a stellar reputation in the cultivation world within a matter of minutes. He questioned his motivations and he wanted that person to declare his allegiance. And when that person was forced to do it, that's it. That was almost a surgical precision of political strategy. That was insane.

Shan 

It was a real showcase for his skill set.

Ben 

On his back foot, he really won that entire encounter.

Bookworm

He did. That was a fight that Jing Guangyao a hundred percent won. I think at that point, everybody wanted to fight them. But obviously, we know that nobody's going to fight Lan Wangji.

So they then flee. We still have, like, two more showdowns after this, which is where he ultimately loses. But this one, Jin Guangyao a hundred percent won. Even if the cultivation world doesn't know that he was a villain at this point, we as an audience are very clearly shown that this was a man who can talk his way out of anything. That is exactly what he has done for so long, for almost 20 fucking years. He has talked his way to the top of a cultivation world. Like, he has risen from being an illegitimate child to the top position.

Shan

His methods are never to get his own hands dirty. His methods for framing Wei Wuxian in the first life, his methods for continuing to do his dirty deeds in the second life are through these villainous dudes that he recruits into his cause. Su She, who is a former Lan cultivator who has a lot of bitterness that he plays on. Xue Yang, who is another one of Jin Guangshan's illegitimate sons. The illegitimate sons are just all over this story. 

The way the story unfolds—and this is, I think, one of our probably biggest critiques of the show—they eventually end up pinning a lot of what Wei Wuxian ostensibly did in the first life on Su She as a second demonic cultivator who was controlling people when we thought Wei Wuxian was. That's a change from the book to the show. It's a change I hate a lot.

NiNi 

I think about it this way. If Wei Wuxian wasn't doing what he was doing, he wouldn't have created the cover that Su She had to do what he did. So I still blame it on Wei Wuxian.

Shan 

Yeah, I'm with you. I think the show wants to let him off a little bit, but I will not be doing that.

Ben 

I think one of the things that I find compelling about Meng Yao is because of his starting line, he will never be as powerful as someone like Wangji or Wei Wuxian or any of the other clan leaders and named characters in this story. It doesn't surprise me that he ends up teaming up with people who for whatever reason also cannot achieve those kinds of heights. Like, Su She’s just not as good as Wangji and he's envious of him. And he hates that Wangji won't acknowledge him. He hates that Wei Wuxian won't even remember his fucking name. 

Shan 

Wuxian every time: “Who are you?”

[NiNi laughs]

Bookworm 

It's so good!

NiNi 

So amazing.

Ben 

It's notable that the three of them who form this little evil trio all hold specific grudges about the way they feel disrespected. Everybody Meng Yao has killed, he kills because at one point or another, they called him the son of a prostitute. And he's like, “Well, I'm adding you to my list.”

Shan 

Fuck you, then. [laughs] You gonna die.

Ben

Mingjue originally shielded him and elevated him based upon his actual ability and merit. And Meng Yao took out one of his grievances in the middle of a battle and got caught doing it. That's when Mingjue turned against him.

It's the same thing for Su She. Like Su She wants to have his own clan be acknowledged after Cloud Recesses is destroyed. You can see this man's like, “now's my chance!”

NiNi 

But he just sucks. 

Ben

He does! 

Shan 

Yeah, he doesn't have the skills.

NiNi

He just sucks!

Ben

Even the Lan juniors are like, “You are bad. You do not know how to play your instrument.”

NiNi 

The fact that they use the fact that he sucks to hide him in the story as a villain until the very end. Like he's playing the song to attack wrong. But everybody just accepts that because he sucks, right? So of course he's playing the music wrong. He's playing it wrong on purpose, but everybody else just thinks that he sucks at it. Him sucking is how he hides in plain sight. I love that so much.

Ben 

Meng Yao's whole group is shittier versions of other people. Like, Su She is a shitty version [NiNi laughs] of Lan Zhan and Xue Yang is an insane shittier version of Wei Wuxian.

Shan

[laughs] It's true. They're like the sad little copycats who will never have glory.

Ben

That's what I think is so compelling about it. Like, how much of the story would have been solved by people just not being rude to Meng Yao.

NiNi

He would have found another reason.

Shan 

I gotta say, I don't think murder is a proportional response.

[NiNi laughs]

Bookworm 

Right. Exactly.

Ben 

How much is my finger worth? All of their lives! [all laugh] All of them!

NiNi 

Oh my God.

Bookworm 

[Xue] Yang was a fucking unhinged serial killer. Holy shit.

NiNi 

Psychopath.

Ben 

Let me tell you, that actor is my favorite of the whole series. I love his ridiculousness the whole time.

Shan 

That's a bold statement. My favorite actor in this is definitely Wang Yibo, who did so much with so little.

Ben

I'm being a little bit facetious there. Of the side characters—

Shan 

Fair enough.

Ben

—of the supporting characters, he's my favorite because they were like, what's the direction? “Just serve cunt.” “Got it.”

[all laugh]

Shan

And he's serving cunt, but we cannot overstate that he is by far the most fucked up evil dude in this story. What he does to Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan is disgusting.

Bookworm 

My god, yes, let's talk about that.

Ben 

We're gonna get into how evil this man is. But when he talked to Wei Wuxian, he's like, “I need your help with this sort of stuff.” And Wei Wuxian is like, “What the fuck? Why would I help you with that?” He's like, “Well, you started all this shit. What is your problem, dude?”

[Ben, NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan 

It actually is really funny. He says, “come on, be my mentor.” And Wuxian’s like, “no, no, this is not what I'm doing. This is not connected to me.”

NiNi 

I would like very much not to be a part of this particular narrative.

Shan

Exactly!

Bookworm 

No!

Ben 

We have to talk about Wei Wuxian reflecting. “Is this the company I've collected? Hold on.”

Bookworm

Exactly! Like, holy shit, if this man thinks that I would help him, what does that say about me and my actions so far? 

Shan 

What have I been doing? Exactly.

Bookworm

Yes! What have I been doing?

30:56 The Second Life: The Tragedy of Wen Ning

Shan 

We haven't actually talked yet about what Wei Wuxian did to Wen Ning, and we should.

NiNi

Oh man. The tragedy of tragedies.

Ben 

So Wei Wuxian learns from Wen Qing that the Wen remnants are basically being tormented and experimented on by the Jin clan, who are trying to understand Wei Wuxian's demonic cultivation. When he arrives at this site, he loses his shit, sees that they've killed Wen Ning, and then revives Wen Ning as a puppet—that's the term that they use for, basically, his zombies—and sends Wen Ning on a tear beating the crap out of people. After which he tries to develop a method to restore Wen Ning's consciousness, but he has forever trapped this originally very kind boy in a perpetual state of undead. And he will forever be at the control of anyone who can produce the proper tunes to force him to go beat the shit out of people.

Shan

This is another thing that Wei Wuxian does without the consent of the person involved. He turns Wen Ning, who is a very gentle, loving soul, into a weapon, basically. He turns him into an indestructible ghost puppet who Wei Wuxian uses to perpetuate violence and who other people, we learn, can use to perpetuate violence. One of my biggest criticisms of the story—not just the show, but also the novel—is that it never unpacks what a violation that is on Wen Ning.

NiNi 

Basically, if he hadn't done what he did to Wen Ning, Jin Zixuan would still be alive.

Shan 

Yes, and Wen Ning would not be holding the guilt of having murdered him.

Bookworm

The Wen Ning situation is extremely tragic, but also there are two things that protected the Wen prisoners of war when they were sequestered in the Burial Mounds. One was the Yin Tally, the power of demonic cultivation or whatever. And the other, even though he was not intended for that purpose, once he was resurrected and once he was given the consciousness back and once people understood that he could be a weapon, I think it also protected them a little bit more. Around a year or so, they were able to survive on that mountain. And I really don't think in such a politically tense period, it would be possible to do that without a very obvious threat that they can just sort of unleash on people. It also backfired so spectacularly because his control can be just transferred to whoever wants to take it. 

The Wen Ning that we saw before he was transformed, this boy who tried to help everybody, was so sweet and very shy. Even when he wanted to learn things he was just sequestered. He was secluded, he didn't really interact with people because he knew that the Wen clan was not the greatest. You take that character and you turn him into basically just a walking nuke. 

Wei Wuxian: do first, think later. One of the things that really gets my goat is that after the massacre at the Qiongqi Path, he had the fucking audacity to go after Wen Ning. He woke up and he was like, “You murdered these people.” I will never forgive that man for that moment. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? OOF!

Shan 

It was brutal. Wen Ning's accidental murder of Jin Zixuan is what caused the entire Wen clan to turn themselves in and be exterminated. It is what led to Wen Ning being basically imprisoned and his mind taken over while Wei Wuxian was dead for 16 years. He was locked up with bolts in his fuckin’ head. They were experimenting on him. When Wei Wuxian was resurrected, he did liberate Wen Ning. But from there, Wen Ning had an extraordinarily lonely existence because he's the only one of his kind. His entire family is dead. 

And so, it was nice to see at the end him get some measure of peace by being reunited with A-Yuan again, finding Sizhui and being able to travel together and bond over their dead family and their connection to each other. But Wen Ning is indestructible and immortal and he is going to live a very lonely life. I wish the story had actually unpacked that in any way or Wei Wuxian had ever reckoned with his choices and how he harmed his friend.

NiNi 

To me the tragedy goes even further because the reason that Wen Ning is so protected at all by Wen Qing and others in the beginning is because he's already been hurt. When he was a child, he's already been attacked spiritually by, like, this fairy statue or whatever. So he's already weak. And in some ways it feels like Wei Wuxian thought that maybe he could make him strong, but he just ruined him even more. He does make him strong in a way that he wasn't strong before, but the tragedy of it is that he's a sweet, sweet kid that he turns into a monster. And Wen Ning never blames him for it. He is loyal to him till the end. 

Ben

Yeah, but again, how much of that is because he's been turned into a puppet or his natural tendency? We'll never know. 

Shan

We’ll never know. I love Wen Ning.

Ben

A lot of Wen Ning mentioned in this section, good job everybody!

38:07 The Second Life: Two “Fools”

NiNi 

If we’re talking about tragedy we gotta talk about the tragedy of Meng Yao and Lan Xichen at the end, because oh my god, he ruined that man. He destroyed him.

Bookworm 

All right, let's go! Round two!

Shan 

This is why I do not buy interpretations of canon that claim Meng Yao truly loved Xichen, because—

NiNi 

He did not.

Bookworm 

Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Shan

—you do not do that to somebody you love. Absolutely not.

NiNi 

He loved that Lan Xichen loved him, but he did not love Lan Xichen.

Shan 

Exactly.

Bookworm 

He loved the influence that he had on Lan Xichen. He was so over the moon happy that he had this very influential man that he could just control and do whatever the fuck he wants with him.

Shan 

So this all culminated at Guanyin Temple when Nie Huaisang tricked Xichen, basically, into thinking Meng Yao was attacking him from behind. Xichen automatically activated his sword, stabbed Meng Yao. Meng Yao on his way out as he was dying, chose not to comfort Xichen, but instead to guilt trip him for killing him and not saving him. 

NiNi 

Walked down the fucking sword. He pushed the sword in deeper!

Bookworm 

He sure did.

NiNi 

Bitch!

Shan 

Brutal stuff, Xichen destroyed. We know that after this, he went into seclusion for several years to try to recover from the emotional blow of this happening to him. And that is how it was revealed that Nie Huaisang was the one behind all of this to get revenge for his brother.

NiNi

Xichen, man. Oh, my god.

Shan 

He’s tragic, but let’s talk about Huaisang. Oh my God, what a good reveal.

Bookworm 

Yes, let's talk about the only person who's really good at politics and only wanted to use it for own reasons, not for grabbing power or anything. I mean, it was implied at the end that he would rise to the top. That man knew how to play the game. But he would have just minded his own fucking business if nobody murdered his brother.

Ben

He just wanted to draw his porn and play with his fans.

Bookworm 

Yes! Yes!

NiNi

Gaslight gatekeep girlboss. That's what he was doing.

Shan 

He wanted to sit in the background gossiping, listening, collecting tea just for fun. But no, these bitches had to go murder his brother, and then he had to get involved.

Ben 

He understood what he was up against and his plan is really elegant and it works because he understands his friends. He knows that if Wei Wuxian comes back and you give him a little mystery to solve, this problem will sort itself out. [NiNi laughs]

Shan

He’s like, just point Wuxian at it! 

Ben

He's just like, all I need is to bring him back and Wangji has to find him first.

Bookworm

That’s it. 

Shan

And he gave them little nudges along the way to help them find the clues that they needed. He found and set up witnesses to be discovered. He was gathering all of the tea and making sure to strategically place it around where Wangji and Wuxian could find it.

Bookworm 

Do we see Nie Huaisang at the confrontation when all of this was unmasked by Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji at the Jin headquarters?

Shan 

He was not in the room.

NiNi 

He's not there. 

Bookworm 

See, so he saw the goddamn mess Jin Guangyao was able to make of that situation and then he was like, “you know what? I'm not gonna leave this to you bitches anymore.” And then he showed up at both the Burial Mounds and at the temple and he played both of those situations to how he wanted. He was like, “Su She, what are you doing? Why are you being weird?”

Shan 

The great thing about the reveal is when you go back and look at earlier scenes, he is in the background of so many crucial scenes where he is gathering information totally unobtrusively. You don't even notice he's there, but he is.

NiNi 

I notice, because I notice the fan. I always see the fan.

Ben

It's in the past too, like he's one of the people who picks up on the intensity of Wangji and Wei Wuxian's relationship. He doesn't have any aspirations about it, but he's clearly aware of it ‘cause he watches it happen.

NiNi 

Not just watches, I'm pretty sure that he showed Wei Wuxian the porn that he then shows to Lan Wangji. 

Ben 

He did.

Bookworm 

He did!

Shan

And there was that whole segment where he was tagging along on their date, bein’ a third wheel.

Bookworm 

That was so funny.

Ben 

He is relying upon them to help him achieve his ends here. But, like, they were also his friends.

Shan 

That is probably one of my favorite mystery reveals in drama. Very good shit.

Bookworm

Excellent. I remember being just gobsmacked with my jaw on the floor when I read the books and got to the reveal. Yeah, I just blacked out and my ears started ringing. I flashbacked everything that happened for the last five books and tried to figure out. It was so good. 

This is exactly why this show has really good rewatch value. Once you know all the information, you see from episode one how all of them connects. It's so satisfying.

44:14 The Second Life: Various Random Musings

NiNi 

Let's do the best moments in the second life in reverse. So, Ben, you go first.

Ben 

Wen Ning revealing the history of the core to Jiang Cheng. Honestly, the entire set of reveals around the end of the Yi City arc and the reveals at the Lotus Pier, because you get to see how fickle the politics of this era have been. As soon as some folks come forward with some information, everybody's like, “Oh my goodness me, oh no.” 

And I really love the confrontation where Jiang Cheng’s being a bitch again and Wen Ning is like, “I've had enough!” And reveals everything that's going on and you see how devastated Wangji is about this too, with him finally piecing together what was wrong with Wei Wuxian all this time. 

I also really like Wei Wuxian mentoring the juniors in Yi City. Because he's actually good at it. And it makes you sad for what Jiang Cheng was hoping he would get out of Wei Wuxian. Because Wei Wuxian actually is good with young people and good at teaching them stuff.

Shan 

He would have actually been a really good head disciple.

Ben 

Yeah, and it's what he wanted. He genuinely had no designs upon Jiang Cheng's legacy. He really wanted to just support him. He thought that maintaining the dynamic that their fathers had was going to be the best thing of his life. Which is what's so sad about it all.

NiNi 

I think my favorite moments actually are moments within those scenes that you're talking about. When everything goes down at Lotus Pier and Wen Ning spills the tea, there's a moment when Lan Wangji asks, “Was it painful?” And I just fucking broke. He's just found out that this man essentially sacrificed himself for his brother and never told anybody. And he's remembering all the times he got on his ass about it. And all he can think is, “Oh my god, did it hurt him when they did this, when he took out his core?” I was ruined, absolutely fucking ruined. 

And then the time that I giggled, I had a great time, is in the Yi City arc, when Lan Wangji is fighting Xue Yang and Wen Ning is fighting the puppets. And Wei Wuxian is like, well, what am I supposed to do? And then he sees the kids and he's like, “I can do that.” That was a great moment for me as well. 

But then my ultimate moment, and I've been obsessed with this moment since I saw it, is when they're back at Cloud Recesses after they've fled the Jin clan and Lan Xichen is hiding them. And he's talking to Wei Wuxian and Wei Wuxian is starting to think a little bit about what Lan Zhan means to him. And then Lan Zhan walks up, hair down and soft, with two bottles of Wuxian's favorite liquor. They should not be drinking in Cloud Recesses because it's one of their 3000 rules or whatever. He don't care. He loves his man. He missed his man. This man could get anything that he wants. So he comes up with two jugs of the Emperor's Smile and his hair all soft and sexy. And I'm like, “oh, they gone fuck tonight!” They did not, but they should have.

Shan 

[laughs] In our hearts they did.

Ben

Bookworm, favorite moments from the second life?

Bookworm 

One of my favorite movements is the one that I already talked about, the whole confrontation at the steps of the Jin manor when Lan Wangji says that he will walk the single plank path with Wei Wuxian. The reason why it's one of my favorites is, that line is the culmination of 16 years of regret. Lan Wangji was introduced to us as this extremely repressed and extremely by the book, follow the rules guy who grew up in this clan whose politics also seem to be, “We are not gonna do anything unless it becomes a direct and very visible active threat. We're not gonna get into the machinations of the dirty politics stuff. We're just gonna stay above it all.” And then this man sees how not commenting, not acting and letting it become a monster which they can then fight has consequences. And how him not questioning and blindly following all of those rules, how his entire upbringing basically led to the death and complete destruction of the love of his life. And then he had 16 fucking years in solitude regretting all of his actions. Then we finally see Wei Wuxian come back and we see the political world wanting to do the same thing once again to Wei Wuxian. He was like, “Bitch, no, not this time.” And he goes for it. That was such an amazing line and the whole arc of how it came about is why it's one of my favorites. 

Another one, this one's subtler. It's all the looks Jiang Cheng gives Wei Wuxian when they get to the Lotus Pier after their confrontation at the Burial Mounds. Like, he stops and looks at Wei Ying and Wen Ning before they enter, like, “Do you really think you can walk into this place?” And then Wen Ning just walks away. Then they get to the main hall and he turns around once again. And he's like, “Do you think I'm gonna let you into the throne room?”And then Wei Ying just sits on the steps without another word. 

That man is so good. Jiang Cheng’s actor.

Shan 

Let's put some respect on his name. Wang Zhuo Cheng is the actor's name and he is fantastic.

Bookworm 

Fantastic. So good. He is such a nuanced character and there's always at least three different emotions that he's feeling at any given moment. Every time it's just a complicated mess of things that's going on in his head and you can see him playing it out. The first time we see him interact with Wei Wuxian after he's resurrected, you see the doubt and you see that he suspects that this is Wei Wuxian. In that scene somewhere, there's a moment where you can see that he is hopeful but he's also just raging. You see that he's so mad and if he finds out that this is Wei Wuxian, he's gonna tear him apart. That's what that looks means. But he's also so sad that is what it has come to. That was his brother and now he wants to kill him, very rightfully so, but you see him just fighting all of those differing emotions inside him and you see it all on his face. 

Jiang Cheng, on the whole, that character is just extremely complicated, extremely tragic and he was played so beautifully.

Shan 

Y'all talked about some of my favorite moments already, but some additional ones that no one's mentioned yet. First of all, let me just give a shout out to second life Lan Wangji and his sense of humor. That man is fuckin’ funny. He is making fun of Wei Wuxian all the time after he's resurrected. It's so subtle, but it's so well done. I love every scene where he is basically mocking him for not remembering things from the past. [laughs] I love every scene where he's teasing him about, “Bitch, I know who you are because you played our love song as soon as you woke up.” But Wei Wuxian never figures it out. He does not understand that that is the reason Lan Wangji instantly knew who he was. I love all of those scenes.

NiNi 

And then at the end he's like, are we ever gonna give this song a title? And he's like, “Bitch, you really can't remember anything, do you?”

Shan 

Come on! [NiNi and Shan laughs] It already has a title.

Bookworm 

Obviously everybody would have caught it at this point, but in the first arc when they were stuck in the cave fighting the tortoise, when Wei Wuxian asks him what is the name of the song, you see him slowly drifting off, you see the scene blurring, but it is very clear that Lan Wangji mouths “Wangxian” at him, 

Shan 

Yeah, he says it. 

Bookworm

Which is is insane. Like how did they get it in?

Shan

I'm gonna give Wuxian a pass for not perceiving that because he was very feverish and passing out when he said it. When he resurrects in his second life, he doesn't know why he knows the song and he doesn't know where it's from. But it's, like, in his soul and he just plays it without even knowing why. That is why Wangji knows who he is immediately, despite the fact that in the book, he's in a completely different body. In the show, he's wearing that silly mask. All of the scenes connected to that are so funny to me. Obviously, there's a lot of comedy in the drunken shenanigans. 

The other part that I like about the second life arc is the moments where Wei Wuxian kind of gives himself away with his fantasies about Wangji. One of the most stark ones to me is, the only memory he has of his parents is of his mother riding the donkey while his dad leads the donkey down the road. And then we see Wuxian orchestrate recreating this moment with Wangji. He gets on Lil’ Apple and he has Wangji walking beside leading the donkey. And the show never actually comments on it, they just show you. It's so clear, like, in his mind, even when he is still not really fully clicked into his feelings, what his fantasies actually are about the life that he wants with Wangji. I love that. 

And then, this all culminates in the ultimate family moment of him realizing who Sizhui is. I fuckin’ love that scene at the end of the show where Sizhui runs up and tells Wei Wuxian that he knows who he is. And it finally clicks for Wuxian that this is A-Yuan. And without Lan Zhan saying a word, he puts it together that Wangji has rescued this kid who he was helping to raise in the Burial Mounds and raised him as his own son. And that he did that in large part for Wuxian. 

You just see the emotions over Wei Wuxian's face as he just puts this together and looks at Wangji. He starts crying. It's such a perfect, happy, joyful moment, him realizing A-Yuan is okay. He survived. He is this kid that he has already come to love as Sizhui, and then realizing that Wangji did that for him. It was beautiful. And then Sizhui clinging onto his leg and just being so happy to be reunited with his Xian-gege from his previous life. Such good shit! 

The show gives it away early on who Sizhui is. So it's not about a reveal there. It's about the emotional culmination of all of them finally putting together who they are to each other. One of my favorite moments in the whole show.

56:32 Page to Screen (and Audio, and Anime, and Stage, and...)

NiNi 

All right, we're three hours. We gotta wrap this up.

Ben 

The only thing I’ll mention in terms of other adaptations, there is an anime version of this, which better mimics the pacing and structure of the novelization. Also, the giggly version of Wei Wuxian that you get in the anime better reflects what I felt like I was reading. Though I do appreciate the way Xiao Zhan approached the character, who realized that all that giggling would be aggravating as hell. He instead does like a very peculiar smirk, which I think is a much better choice for the drama.

Shan

Yeah, it works better on the screen. In terms of story structure, I do prefer the novel structure. Intercutting between the present and flashbacks, it preserves the mysteries a lot better. The show, if you're paying close attention, you can solve everything far in advance because you're just given a lot more information in chronological order that you didn't have while reading the book. So, I do prefer the structure of the book for the mystery purpose. But the show, I think, made the right choices for a screen adaptation.

Bookworm 

We should probably talk about the ending.

Ben

I will say that I don't hate it. Considering the horrors that Twig and I have lived through in queer cinema and BL, they didn't brutally slaughter them or break them up in an unforgivable way at the end of the narrative. I think ending on an ambiguous note is one of the nicest things that this show did for these characters considering the censored nature of this. Everybody who follows any amount of lore knows this is based upon a novel that's way spicier. By not ending on a dour note, I think it makes the curious audience more likely to go read the novels if they want to see what the explicit romance looks like. And I think that's an overall good choice considering the obstacles they were up against. I don't think it's great, but I'm not mad about it. 

The whole show is censored, we know a romance is occurring, but technically one isn't.

Shan 

Bookworm, how did you feel about it?

Bookworm 

Like I said before, I am very used to watching stories culminate in a very ambiguous ending. I've seen so many movies, just ends in a shot of like, I don't know, two people standing staring into the distance. Like Ben said, you are aware that this is a censored BL. That is one of the things that impacts how you receive this ending a lot. 

I read the books first, I could see all of the things that they had to walk around to make this get through the censors but also make an effort to depict the romance in any way they can. When I got to the ending, I will be honest, I started screaming—

Shan 

You did, I was there. It was actual screaming.

Bookworm 

When he stopped Wei Ying, and Wei Ying turns around and they go into the song, I was heartbroken. I was so mad. At that point, I have all the information. I know that they're not gonna end how they ended in the books. But still, it was so heartbreaking to watch this man walk away from Wei Wuxian. It is such an out of character moment. There is no way the Lan Wangji that I read about and the Lan Wangji that was depicted in the show for so long would walk away from Wei Wuxian. 

When we eventually got to the end of the song and Lan Zhan calls Wei Wuxian’s name and he just turns around and we end on this frame where we assume that Wei Wuxian sees him and just breaks into the smile… there was no other ending where the art could survive and get to its audience.

I'm sad that we did not see the actual story, but it was left open to our imagination that Lan Wangji found him again and they're gonna get back together, and I was happy with that.

Shan

Almost every cdrama ends this way. And this includes het cdramas, not just queer ones. Where, if a character has been morally gray, if a character has used magic, if a character has done anything that precludes them from being a perfect, pure person, they're not going to get a happy ending. They're going to get an ambiguous ending. This is just how cdramas work. So, I read the ending as exactly what needed to happen to get this show to air. 

Absolutely, there's no way in hell that Wangji would ever become the chief cultivator because he fuckin’ hates clan politics and he's bad at it. No way that he would ever do this or that anyone would ever want him to. But I recognized that instantly as Chinese nationalism rearing its head for censorship reasons. He needed to devote himself to the state. He had to separate from Wei Wuxian because they weren't allowed to have a happy ending because they use magic and because they did morally gray things. Wei Wuxian had to go and wander the world alone to atone for his sins, quote unquote. These are all really classic censorship things.

I feel strongly that the creators of this show trusted the fans to know why they needed to do these things and to just brush off the pieces of it that don't make sense and understand the real ending. Outside of the trappings of the plot of what happened there, we saw them exchange these meaningful looks. They did a fucking duet together. And then we end on this beautiful scene of Wei Wuxian standing on a cliff playing their song and turning around after hearing Wangji call his name. And smiling as his eyes fill with tears. That is a gorgeous ending. I am so impressed that they were able to work that in in a way that would not preclude the other things they needed to do for censorship reasons.

NiNi 

I'm annoyed, I'm just gonna say it, but I also know why it happens. But the fact that it ends ambiguously is not what bothers me. I really just do not believe that Lan Wangji would ever take over the clan or that he would let Wei Wuxian leave while he did it. It just doesn't fly for me even with everything going on with Lan Xichen. To me they should have just ended where they see Wen Ning and Lan Sizhui off and then they could have just ridden off into the sunset. 

Shan

Yeah, they definitely could not do that for censorship reasons, but I hear you.

NiNi 

I know, I feel like that's the ending I would have been the most satisfied with. Even if the last shot of them was just of them there, standing together and Lan Wangji giving him that look that says we have to part or Wei Wuxian walking away and Lan Wangji standing there, even that would have been more ambiguous to me because I could have spun it in my head as “oh, he's just watching his man walk away and then he's going to run and catch up with him.” But the whole part where he goes back to the clan and he becomes the clan leader, that just doesn't fly with me.

Bookworm 

NiNi, you know what the fix for this is. You just have to read the books. That's the plug.

Shan 

Read the books and a long list of fanfic that I will be sending you later today.

Bookworm

Yes.

NiNi 

Already, Twig has provided, I have read the smutty parts of the books, thank you, Twig. So I have read the full and proper ending and I am quite satisfied with that. And Shan is gonna send me a list of fics, so I’m fine. I'm not a fic girl usually, but in this story it's absolutely necessary. Just too many gaps that I need to fill.

Shan

That's why there are 50,000 fanfics on AO3 for this show. [laughs]

Bookworm 

There are so many fanfics. At one point you read so many of them that you forget what's canon and what's fanon. That's how it goes.

NiNi 

I'm waiting for Shan to curate me a list.

Bookworm 

I do wanna include an earnest plug for the books, though. I think the creators want you to, they've done their best.

Shan 

Yeah, they want you to go there.

Bookworm 

Exactly, they want you to go to the books. And without spoiling much of it, if you want a little bit motivation to go to the books, Lan Wangji only gets drunk once in the show. It happens so many times in the books. 

NiNi 

More than once, more than once. He passes out a few times.

Shan 

He does, but there are more extended drunken shenanigan scenes in the book. There are several.

Bookworm

The wall slowly comes down. Wei Wuxian gets slowly just unraveled, trying to understand what the fuck is going on with Lan Zhan, why is he acting like this when he's drunk? Those are my favorite sequences and I hope it convinces you to go read the books.

NiNi 

Between now and May it's textbooks and case studies. After that we'll see what happens.

Bookworm 

I'm talking to the people, NiNi. I'm also in the same graduate school hell with you.

Ben 

Begging the listeners to go read the books.

Shan

Go read these damn books.

01:07:04 Afterlife: The Impact of The Untamed on BL and Fandom

Ben

We're living in the post-Untamed world. This show brought a shit ton of people to BL who had not been here before. And a bunch of people who had not engaged with Chinese daytime dramas, probably ever, genuinely started watching them after this. Despite how the censors may feel about a queer/not queer work being so popular, this show has had a huge impact on many people's willingness to engage with Chinese media. After the addicted stuff, we had basically written off China. And The Untamed, even five years later, continues to be the reason why people keep hoping that the Chinese creative teams will be able to get more stories to us.

The downside of all of this, fans are still super feverish about this. And AO3 ends up getting banned in China.

Shan 

There was, as always happens in fandom, people writing real person fiction about the actors instead of fan fiction about the characters. And Xiao Zhan's fans got very upset about people posting smutty real person fiction about him.

Ben 

We've talked about some of the fan issues with getting overly possessive about the idols and the actors. This is part of what the party cracked down on. After Word of Honor maybe pushed the envelope too far and the ensuing drama after that, we haven't really gotten much big Chinese BL since then. We started seeing more of it again last year, but there are still projects from, like, 2020 that have been shelved that we've been hoping get released to us. 

It's complicated because you can tell that the powers that be want the attention and tourism associated with it, but it doesn't conform to some of their civic management goals. It's not like the Chinese people are any different than everyone else in the world. They eat the fuck out of BL. Like, they're the primary consumers of 2gether. So, I don't know.

Shan 

There's been a real dearth of quality Chinese BL since. The few productions that started to come out last year are mostly being produced in other countries like in Singapore or in Hong Kong. We're starting to see danmei productions and adaptations happening in Thailand or in Taiwan, that's how these things are getting made now. 

Despite that, the fandom around this show is immense. It is not slowing down. The books have been out for 10 years. The show has been out for six years. New fans still find it every day. Create new fan works every day. New meta all the time. New fanfic all the time. It endures. This is a story that has really connected with people globally. It's something pretty amazing to see.

NiNi 

I would like to personally thank Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo in particular. Because sirs, you did what you needed to do.

Shan 

Amen, sister.

NiNi 

And what you needed to do was break my heart on a regular basis and be extremely attractive while doing it. Good job.

Ben

I'm really surprised by how much the show succeeded. They did not have a lot of money. They were filming in kind of unsafe ways, two people literally died making this show. But it's kind of wild how much genuine talent they got on this production. Like, nobody's really slacking on this. It's a really impressive project considering this is a web drama.

It's hard to really give final thoughts on the show. I just end up incredibly impressed by what they managed to pull off.

NiNi 

I think to close, I will just say a short summary of everything we've just talked about as follows: The Untamed is a story about an itinerant, freelance, accidental genocidal maniac and the man who pays all his bills and defends his life. And it's amazing. And you should go watch it. That's all we have to say.

Shan

It's a must watch, I think, from The Conversation.

NiNi 

What's the point of even rating it? 

Ben 

Yeah, it's not one that I really wanna give a real rating to. Under the Ben scope, it'd be like a 9. Most people should watch it.

Shan 

Yeah, it kind of transcends that ratings thing that we normally do. If you care about BL, if you care about queer media, if you care about Asian drama, you should watch this show. It's foundational.

Bookworm 

This is a very carefully constructed narrative with so many moving parts. And I think that's the appeal. It just gives you so much to noodle on. Don't be scared that this will not be your cup of tea.

Shan

You'll find something to love.

Bookworm

There is so much going on that something will grab you and you will just be forever obsessed with the story. Go watch it or go read it and then come talk to us about it. Tag us.

NiNi

That is going to wrap us up after three hours and 20 minutes of unedited time on—

Ben 

I'm so hungry.

NiNI

—The Untamed.

Shan 

We did pretty good!

NiNi 

I've been chomping on grapes this entire time, thank god.

Bookworm 

I have to go make dinner. 

NiNi

Alright, we out. Say bye to the people, Bookworm.

Bookworm

Bye people!

NiNi 

Say bye to the people, Shan. 

Shan 

Bye, y'all.

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

[the-conversation-pod]

The Untamed Episodes: The First Life

AND WE'RE BACK

It's been a hot minute since we dropped an episode, so we're back to talk about a project that has stuck in fandom for years. We finally got NiNi to watch The Untamed, so grab your snacks and come listen to her talk about everyone's hair along with our friends @lurkingshan and @neuroticbookworm. We'll be discussing censorship in media as we try to run through the big overview of Wei Wuxian's first life.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:00:55 - Introduction 00:03:55 - Censorship in Media: A Global View 00:12:37 - The MoDaoZuShi Phenomenon 00:24:33 - The Big Picture 00:33:36 - The First Life 00:40:07 - The First Life: Thoughts and Impressions 00:46:21 - The First Life: WangXian and Other Fucked Up Love Stories 01:01:17 - The First Life: Various Random Musings 01:11:02 - Outro: Notes From the Future

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic.

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the VIIBs queen.

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL.

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:00:55 - Introduction

Ben 

And we're back. This week we're doing a little bit of a retrospective. We're gonna be covering The Untamed. Friend of the pod, pod team member, and troll of the pod, Shan—who is of course here. 

NiNi

Say hi, Shan.

Shan 

Hi, people!

Ben 

Shan mentioned during our Diamond League episode that this was a huge oversight in the pod's discussion history and so we successfully bullied NiNi into finally watching it. And she managed to watch the whole thing.

Shan 

I'm so impressed.

NiNi 

It was a struggle. It was a lot. There were some episodes in the middle where I was just like, ooh, okay, I'm just gonna have to push through. But I made it.

Shan 

You sure did.

Ben 

Because The Untamed is such a large project to discuss, we brought an additional clown along with us. Everyone welcome back Bookworm. 

Say hi, Bookworm.

Bookworm 

Hi people!

Ben 

Bookworm, despite how busy she is, has been following Shan's [laughs] recommended BLs list for like two years now. And then for about, like, a one month period, we completely lost Bookworm to reading all five of these books. And then during Christmas of ‘24, I think, you guys watched all of The Untamed in like a week.

Bookworm 

We did it in two weeks, I think. Six episodes a day.

NiNi 

That is commitment.

Shan

Bookworm has very short windows where she actually has a lot of free time. So we took advantage of the holiday season.

Bookworm 

She trapped me between Christmas and New Year's.

Shan 

I just strapped her to a chair, and said [Bookworm laughs] we're watching the episodes, let's go.

NiNi 

She's good at doing that. 

Bookworm 

Sure is. 

NiNi

That's how she got Ben to watch Goblin.

Bookworm

Wow, that was a moment. That was so good.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

I'm feeling really proud of my accomplishments.

[NiNi laughs]

Ben 

Goblin was at least better than Coffee Prince, ‘cause there was a moment when I was watching Coffee Prince, around like episode 10, where I'm like, I'm over this show!

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

He was so mad because he was waiting for the turn and it hadn't come yet and he was getting so frustrated.

NiNi 

Episode 10 of a kdrama? That's not when it happens. Come on!

Shan 

He just didn't understand the rhythms yet. He pushed through, and then he came around and ended up loving the show.

Ben 

Goblin did a much better job of not losing me during the episode 10 phenomenon because they had great Bonds Between Men content. Every time I'm like, “ooh, I'm getting a little tired of this modern angst shit,” they're like, “here's a scene from the past with that one guy you love.” There he is. There's my boy.

NiNi 

I think that's a good segue into what we're gonna talk about here, Bonds Between Men, because this is a show that works on multiple levels deliberately because of details that we're gonna talk about. So let's dive into talking about The Untamed.

00:04:14 - Censorship in Media: A Global View

Ben 

Normally on this show, as you all know, we would do like a “Ben, what the fuck is the show about?” and I'd give some kind of snarky blurb about it, and then we get into it. Because we're talking about the biggest Chinese BL that exists, we're gonna unpack a ton of the context around our understanding of Chinese censorship. 

Shan, you've done a bunch of the background on this one. Take us in.

Shan 

So first, just an acknowledgement up top that censorship exists in all media. That there are standards in every country that have to be met for anything that is aired, on public television in particular, in movies. This is not a thing that is unique to China. And most Asian dramas are censored to some extent according to whatever the social norms of their home country are. 

That said, Chinese censorship is especially strict. It's considered one of the worst state censorship models in the world. The Chinese Communist Party monitors everything that comes out. They're very often concerned with curtailing political opposition and promoting Chinese nationalism—if you include more of it, you can get away with doing stuff they don't like. They want to prevent negative depictions of Chinese history. They're also very often just doing basic morality policing around sex, in particular. So, even in heterosexual romance media, this applies. You see very little sex in cdramas, even when they're het. Angle kisses, stuff like that still exist even in het media. Of course this is even more severe for queer media. Typically, you're not even gonna see things like onscreen kisses in queer media out of China. 

They also put limits on things like magic, which is very relevant for the story we're gonna talk about today. It has to be depicted so as to avoid seeming more powerful than the state or promoting superstition. This is very often why characters who use magic are not really allowed to have happy endings. You can't show a character thriving because of their use of magic in Chinese media. So sometimes magic is changed out completely in these stories for quasi-scientific explanations, or magic is used and then the characters have ambiguous or sad endings in order to counterbalance that.

On top of those censorship norms, there's also law around pornography. Pornography is completely illegal in China. Technically, since the mid 2010s, homosexuality is not criminalized legally anymore in China, but there are a lot of really vague laws that still exist around abnormal sexual behavior, quote unquote, and obscenity, quote unquote, that allow for queer media to be targeted by censors. 

In terms of Chinese BL shows, there were a handful of them prior to The Untamed that did make it to air. Most of them adapted from novels—we'll get a little bit more into that in a minute. In 2017, in the middle of the airing of Addicted, is when the censorship crackdown on BL really took shape. That show was very popular and was actually depicting things like kisses between men and it immediately got terminated, yanked off the air, and then the censorship laws got much stricter. 

Y'all probably remember that, NiNi and Ben. I think you were around in fandom when that went down.

Ben 

I sure was.

NiNi 

I wasn't quite there yet, I watched Addicted after the fact and I didn't have the context.

Shan 

You were confused, right? [laughs] You're like, why is this show such a big deal?

Ben 

Both of those guys kind of disappeared from acting for years afterwards. 

Shan 

They got blacklisted. 

Ben

They're only just now starting to work again.

Shan

Yeah. So that show got yanked off mid-airing right after the first kiss aired on TV. And then after that, you never saw anything like that. Even the few Chinese BLs that managed to get released after that, you don't see things like on air kisses or acknowledgement of sex at all. 

It's hard for a lot of these shows to get made in the first place. Even after they get made, a lot of them don't end up going to air or they start airing and then get yanked off TV very quickly. There are many, many danmei adaptations sitting on the shelf in China. There are shows that have been made and will never get released. It's a really rough environment for creators who are trying to make this queer content and get it out in the world.

Ben 

Let's add some additional context, if we can, about censorship outside of China. Since we have two Americans and two non-Americans here. 

Bookworm or NiNi, do you have any specific cultural memories of censorship in media from your home countries? ‘Cause I have a few American ones I will of course bitch about.

NiNi 

I'm gonna let Bookworm go first because India and censorship? This is a big one.

Bookworm 

I know, right. So in India, the most prominent kind of censorship that I've noticed in media is almost a self-censorship by the creators themselves around things that deal with caste or religion, and we very rarely get homosexual depictions, but whatever we do get, it's almost always a tragedy. I've never seen a gay character have a happy ending in Indian media yet. When we have inter-caste romance depiction, for example, the story will struggle between the realities of how caste can affect these relationships and how it will be received and how difficult their lives will be made, and giving them a happy ending. In India, even though openly we say that it's bad and we shouldn't be clinging to the caste systems now in the 21st century, it's still there. And even though it's not said out loud, most of the powerful media producers and people who can fund this, they tend to be people who are from upper caste. So, if you make something that is openly against their caste, it's just never gonna come out. 

So, when I watched The Untamed, it was very relatable to watch something where they wanted to do more, but you can see that they just can't.

NiNi 

In Trinidad, we don't have a very big recorded media tradition. A lot of our art is theatre-based. And you can find pretty much most things in the theatre, but it's mostly for comedy sake so there's a lot of sex farce, that kind of thing. In terms of recorded media there isn't that much, but what there is, you don't really see, like, actors kiss that much. But that’s not a censorship thing because t's not like they would not be able to air that. It's just a question of the traditions being different. There's no standards boards or things like that, but we don't put very much on the air anyway.

Ben 

In America they would just lie. 

NiNi 

All men do is lie. [laughs]

Ben

They pretend that the advertisers or the nebulous white midwesterner won't want to watch things like Pose, or if a gay actor says something out of line they hurriedly cancel their show despite the show being really fucking good. Having to pick up the scraps that the establishment here is willing to make each year is incredibly frustrating. There's a lot to be said about top-down state level censorship, but I don't think it's inherently worse or better than this.

Shan 

Well yeah, there's state censorship and then there's censorship due to trying to attract sponsors and advertising dollars. But it ends up in the same kind of results of not having honest depictions in media. And I think American media is very susceptible to the latter.

NiNi 

There's also some interesting things there between how sex is censored and how violence is censored in Western media. I wouldn't say that it's not censored, but you can get away with a lot more violence than you can with sex.

Ben 

I have a lot of feelings about the MPAA, so we're not gonna get into that, but let's just point out that you can have somebody run through a building shooting up everybody and get a PG-13 rating as long as there's no blood. But if two gay people even look at each other too long, that's an R rating immediately.

Shan 

Rated R, mmhmm. This stuff is not new, it is not unique to any one country, it exists everywhere. But currently, in 2025, China has one of the strictest state censorship models. And so that's the context under which Chinese BL is made. And, the context under which The Untamed was released.

00:14:54 - The Mo Dao Zu Shi Phenomenon

Ben 

All right, now let's get into Mo Dao Zu Shi properly. This has been around for awhile.

Shan 

So, danmei is the term that is meant to describe Chinese literature that features male/male romance within a whole bunch of different genres. It's a very broad term, danmei. It just means male/male romance. These typically are published as web novels, usually serialized, written mostly by and targeted mostly to a female audience. 

Danmei exists in a kind of a gray space legally in China. It's both queer and pornographic, so it's technically not allowed, but there's not really an enforcement mechanism. The authors stay anonymous because of course, if they're caught publishing this stuff, there could be serious repercussions. 

A lot of danmei novels have become available in recent years to an international audience. First, via fan translations that were done just purely out of love. And then those translations got passed around via the online whisper network of international folks who were interested in these stories. And this genre became so popular that there are now official English translations of some of these books being made. There's a publishing company called Seven Seas that has acquired the rights for many of the most popular danmeis and are publishing them over time. And so that is how this book, Mo Dao Zu Shi, aka Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation, became much more widely available to an English speaking audience. 

This book originally started in 2015 and the writer is Mo Xiang Tong Xiu. It was so popular that it has been, over the years, translated into over a dozen languages. It was first passed around the international audience via a very popular fan translation, and then became officially published in English starting in 2021. Made the New York Times bestseller list, expanded the audience for this story even further. This is a story that is set in a genre called xianxia which is a popular Chinese media genre about humans in historical China who are called cultivators, which basically means that they do martial arts enhanced by magic. They have paranormal, spiritual, physical powers that help them achieve immortality.

This story was so popular that it's had a bunch of adaptations. It's had a webcomic, an audio drama, an animated series and a spinoff to that, an audio book, a mobile game, and of course, The Untamed, the live action show, which we are gonna be discussing today. And there are additional adaptations still being announced. We just found out that there's gonna be a Japanese stage adaptation in the theater, which I'm very curious to see what that's gonna be like. 

So this is an extremely popular story that has really gone global through fan word of mouth. It's a huge deal in terms of its reach and its enduring popularity with fans.

Ben 

You have no idea how much time Shan and Bookworm spent trying to get all of these notes in order. 

Shan 

It's a lot to cover! 

Ben

[laughs] We had a whole side thing with Twig about, like, a canceled international tour that was gonna happen before COVID.

Shan

I didn't even know about that.

Ben 

Let’s establish when everybody came to this. So, I came to The Untamed through normal Tumblr BL sphere around episode 25ish of the drama, I believe? 

Ben

Shan, when did you come to The Untamed?

Shan 

It's hard for me to remember now. I've been so up in this story’s business for years now that it's really hard for me to actually untangle in my brain when I got to certain versions of it and how. But I didn't watch it live. I definitely binged it after the whole thing was out. So I think I probably first watched the series in 2020 or 2021, read the novel and then watched the series again. I was watching a lot of Asian dramas. I had started getting into BL and Netflix just told me to watch this. They put it right on top and I was like, “oh this is interesting, I haven't seen anything quite like this before.” It's kind of remarkable that I'm just sitting over here in the United States and Netflix is telling me to watch this Chinese BL web series. 

This aired in China on Tencent Video. But it was so, so popular. It became one of the highest earning dramas of 2019. Over time, it passed 10 billion views. Netflix picked it up in late 2019, brought it to a much broader international audience. And that's how people like me saw it. This is a story that in both novel and show form spread fiercely by word of mouth. People just loved it so much that it kept getting picked up and brought to new audiences.

When did you first hear about this show, Bookworm?

Bookworm

I think I was just vaguely aware of a very long Chinese drama that was on Netflix. I possibly could have seen it on my recommendations before getting into watching BL at all. I started watching BL only in 2022. So I definitely was not in the fandom when this released live. 

So how I was introduced to this, the time was December 2023. And I just went to Shan’s DMs to talk about how my BTS bias was going to the military. And she was like, here you go. 

Shan 

Something to distract you. [laughs]

Bookworm 

“Here's a picture of this man who's so beautiful and always wears white for some reason. You can think about this man.” And it was like, “what do I do to know more about this man?” And she was like, “I know exactly where I should send you.” And she just directed me to all the books. So yeah, that's how I spent my 2023 holidays, just locked in my room like a gremlin inhaling all the books.

[Ben laughs]

Shan 

I did not remember that I showed you Wangji because V was going to the military. [laughs]

Bookworm

That's exactly what happened. You trapped a freshly grieving army wife!

NiNi 

it just amazes me how Shan is so good at tempting people. She knows exactly how to get people to do things. It's a little bit scary.

Bookworm 

The whole thing was done in 10 days. I genuinely don't think I slept for more than maybe four to five hours. [laughs]

Ben 

[laughs] You did not. You were talking to us in a haze. You screaming about sections.

Shan 

The thing about Bookworm is she also likes to live blog her book reading. So we were along for the ride. [laughs]

Bookworm 

That's right. Every time something happened, I bothered them. It's kind of their fault. Shan put me through it. Like, she has to suffer.

Shan 

I had to be there for emotional support after doing that to you.

Bookworm 

Exactly.

NiNi 

That's the thing, Shan's gonna, like, be the temptress that is seducing you with the apple, but then she'll be right there with you when you fall apart. [laughs]

Bookworm

Exactly.

Shan 

It's my duty.

Ben

NiNi, what did you know about this whole experience from just sort of seeing it in the background noise of BL constantly for the last five years before you sat down and engaged with it?

NiNi 

So I don't think it's any surprise to anybody who listens to this show that I don't watch cdrama, but this show is sort of inescapable. I have friends who are not BL fans, who are not Asian drama fans, who watch this and rave about it and talk about it all the time. This thing is a fucking monster and completely inescapable. And I was just like, “eh yes, I know everybody says it's good. It probably is really good. I don't know how I feel about censorship like this. I don't know if this is something I wanna watch, if it's gonna frustrate me.” I was aware of it out there in the world and aware of how big it was. But, “eh, not sure it's for me.” And then after the Diamond League, I was basically Shan’d into watching it. [laughs]

We're gonna use Shan’d from now on, like to Shan somebody.

Bookworm 

That is a good verb. We are gonna use that.

NiNi 

We're gonna coin a new term, to Shan somebody.

Shan 

I'm just here to enrich your lives with this amazing media that you need to see. And NiNi ended up enjoying this way more than I thought she would. So I was very pleased.

Ben 

We're gonna jump ahead slightly and tell on NiNi. NiNi is now watching Word of Honor.

[all laugh]

Shan 

She sure is!

Bookworm 

She is!

NiNi

I am. [laughs]

Shan

The evil plan is proceeding very nicely.

NiNi 

I will say though, Word of Honor is like the Passions to the Days of Our Lives that is The Untamed. 

Shan 

Yes! 

NiNi

And anybody who does not understand what that means, I'm so sorry for you.

Shan

It's exactly right.

Bookworm 

It's me. I'm the one who doesn't understand what that means, but it's fine.

Shan 

These are American soap operas that NiNi is referencing.

Ben

American soaps that have been on forever.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

Basically, Days of Our Lives is wild, Passions is lower quality and wilder.

Shan 

This show, this story, the book, all of it. It's ubiquitous if you hang out in fandom spaces online. You cannot avoid it if you are in those spaces. It is one of the biggest fandoms. It's certainly the biggest BL fandom on the internet.

Ben 

When we watched this in 2019, I was minding my own business, watchin’ shit like Until We Meet Again and Trapped. And then they started posting all these gif sets of all these Chinese boys with really long wigs and very clean outfits. There was a lot of screaming. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? Why is every goddamn lesbian on tumblr howling about this show?

Shan 

Why are the girls freaking out?

NiNi

And we all know from listening to this show that Ben listens when lesbians talk.

Shan 

That's right.

Ben 

I was like, I don't know what is happening, but every goddamn girl in BL is losing their minds over a censored Chinese BL in 2019. Have we not learned? [laughs] And they wouldn't shut the fuck up about it. And I'm like, all right, that's enough. Around episode 20 to 25. 

I got intrigued by the Bonds Between Men stuff. There are some gif sets at the time. Like, this looks like Man Angst. Hold on, I'm intrigued now. Let me go check this out. 

I remember going through The Untamed loop. Being kind of overwhelmed with details in the first few episodes. And then we went, “okay, we're in a flashback sequence. Guess we'll be here for like an episode or two.” We weren't. And then I ended up catching up with where the show was around episode 38, which was great timing for me. Like, I ended up catching up to the show right around the time we got into the present. And I was like, “I have context’ and then watched the rest of the show [laughs] live with everybody else and had a pretty good time. And then like a week after it finished, I ended up watching the show again. Because I feel like I needed to reprocess it.

I don't think I was prepared for how sticky the show has been for fandom itself. I guess I shouldn't have been because fandom really loves to fill in the blanks on stuff. That's their favorite thing. I grew up watching a lot of Chinese action and a lot of wuxia films, so I had a good time, but I was not expecting this to be the show for everyone. I like the show a fair amount, but I was very surprised by this becoming one of the biggest BLs of all time.

Shan 

It's not only the fill in the blank stuff, but it's also that there's just so many characters, so many relationships, so many dynamics that are just great fodder for meta and fanfic and just, thinking. There's just so much here and I think that's why it has endured for so long.

00:28:42 - The Big Picture

Ben

Okay, we are going to now attempt to talk about the show.

NiNi 

I'm glad you said attempt, bestie, because there's just so much here.

Shan 

Please don't get mad at us for whatever we inevitably leave out.

Ben 

Let's just get that out of the way. We will not be able to discuss everything that happens in a 50 episode drama adapted from a five book complex novel series. We will be covering some highlights of things that are interesting to us and doing some comparisons along the way.

This is a pretty big story and at its core, it's a mystery. So, if you've been holding off on watching this and you feel some kind of way about spoiler culture—I personally don't subscribe to it—but we will be talking about the details of this show for the rest of the episode. So, if you'd like to resume this later, go ahead and pause, grab a shit ton of snacks, go watch The Untamed, [laughs] and then come back.

[all laugh]

Bookworm 

Be prepared to not sleep for a long time.

NiNi

Two weeks is the bare minimum. 

Ben 

You have been warned. All right. So, The Untamed is primarily a story about a talented young cultivator named Wei Wuxian who was kind of in a high ranking role within one of these major clans that organize themselves around cultivation. They have a role in their society where they help manage supernatural phenomena and protect regular people from supernatural and ghost related bullshit. 

There is an expected way that you're supposed to practice and study cultivation. The most powerful clan who wears a lot of red is like, “that's it, we're taking over everything,” and then begins murdering everyone. A lot of things happen. Wei Wuxian ends up developing demonic cultivation in the book, rediscovers it in the show—we'll talk about that later—and helps the not-red clan defeat them, after which we end up in the complex politics that follow after a major power shift. 

Eventually Wei Wuxian dies in a major confrontation after he kills thousands of people, and then 16 years later in the show, he is brought back, reuniting with some of his close friends and allies—because this is a BL romance/not romance—as they go on an investigation to figure out why this cursed hand is trying to kill everybody. 

That is the simplest overview I can give of a very complicated show.

Shan 

You did good, bestie. That's about the best you could do.

NiNi 

I did not look at the timer when you started talking, so I do not know exactly how long that took.

Ben

It was about three minutes. I was trying to do it under three. There are a shit ton of characters in this. Wei Wuxian is a very likable protagonist with very clear relationship dynamics with every character. So there's a lot to really dig into.

Shan 

I think you should reiterate for folks what the experience of watching The Untamed is like. There's this very famous tweet that I think we should give some credit to that described it perfectly.

Ben 

We'll post the screenshot and a link to it in the transcript. Gavia Baker Whitelaw, is a film critic who runs her own podcast, she has her own Tumblr blog, I'll link to hers on here, she goes by @hellotailor. I'm a big fan of Gavia's writing, I really like the way she engages with media. Gavia went through the same experience as the rest of us in early 2020 of like, “what is this show?!” [laughs]

So Gavia starts watching The Untamed and is live blogging on Twitter. “What is this nonsense that I'm watching? What is happening?” And the user who went by Dr. Kate Wild at the time writes, “There's three stages to watching The Untamed. Stage one, this is nonsense. This is very bad.”

That's like episodes one and two.

“Stage two, this is quite watchable nonsense.” That's around episodes four to eight. 

And then “Stage three, I have never cared about anything more in my life.” [NiNi laughs] That happens for different people at different times. 

Shan

NiNi, it was taking her a while to get to stage three. And I said, “Don't worry, NiNi. Stage three comes for all of us at different times. You will get there.” And she did. [laughs]

Ben 

When was stage three for you, Shan?

Shan 

Okay, so first of all, I am a Lan Wangji devotee. I love that man. He owns my heart. So from episode one, as soon as he appeared, I was like, “okay, hell yeah, that's my guy. I'm here, I'm seated.” But in terms of when the story kinda took over my brain, I think that really happened for me during the arc where Wei Wuxian is liberating the Wen prisoners of war and he meets Lan Wangji on the Qiongqi Path in the rain and they have a very sad and tense conversation before Wangji decides to let him leave with the prisoners, but does not leave with him. 

That scene—which by the way is unique to the show—just drilled itself into my brain so deep and I was never normal again, ever, and I never will be. That was the point when stage three took root for me and I became obsessed with this media, and that obsession will last for my whole life.

Ben 

I think it was during the cave arc when Wei Wuxian made Lan Wangji vomit blood. I'm like, “that's way too fucking gay. I have to watch this little man for the rest of the show.” [laughs] 

Shan 

I feel like most people are super in by that sequence, too.

Ben

That whole section is pretty good though, between the handling of the hostage arc, the blow up in the cave, and then the sacking of Lotus Pier. That's a really strong section for people who really like historical political dramas. There's a really strong sense of inevitability at the point at which Wei Wuxian in particular is thrust into the situation, because he's not a passive person. But you can feel the next 15 episodes about to unfold.

Shan 

What about you, Bookworm?

Bookworm 

For me I think it's different because I read the books first and the books are structured quite differently from how the show is structured. So the show does it very linear. Once you jump into the flashbacks you just keep going for 33 episodes and then you emerge, as Ben said, with context. But in the books it interweaves between the present and the flashbacks and the structure kind of gives way to the author releasing information in like very small amounts to keep the tension and intrigue going. 

I'm just the kind of person who starts screaming from the very first moment a question appears on my book or on my show. Like if there is something that needs to be revealed, I need to have it. Just tell me. I don't care if it's a 50 episode show, I don't care if it's a 10 book series. I just start vibrating from the moment I see the puzzle that needs to be solved. 

So in the books, Wei Wuxian, when he's in Mo Xuanyu’s body, people are not gonna recognize him as Wei Wuxian. So he was just like coasting on that and he was doing all sorts of shenanigans with Lan Zhan. But we get to a point where Lan Zhan calls him Wei Ying and he just freezes and he's like, how did you know that it was me? And Lan Zhan just tells him, “You're gonna have to think for yourself.” And that's it. That was stage three.

Shan 

Classic. And that dynamic keeps coming up over and over again through the whole story.

Bookworm 

I was like, “oh my god, how did he know? Just tell me, just tell me!” So that was my stage three. 

What about you, NiNi? 

Shan 

NiNi’s came later, right?

NiNi 

Mine came very late. Stage three for me came when Wei Wuxian is hanging off the cliff and Lan Zhan is trying to save him. And this implacable man just breaks and his face just completely changes. And I'm just like, “okay, I'm in.” 

Shan 

Yeah, it was definitely Lan Zhan’s emotional break for you, right?

NiNi 

Oh, most definitely. From the outside, he appears controlled, even though it's very clear to anybody who's watching this show that this man is losing his mind at all times. And in this case, he just cracks. Because he's about to lose this man and he knows it. And that's when I was just like, “okay, I'm in.”

00:39:30 - The First Life

Ben 

We gotta get into the overall set of arcs that we went through in the show. Wei Wuxian is our viewpoint character and we've gotten really caught up in the romance between him and Wangji. But at the core, this is a political power drama where there's a lot of different players vying for control. Wei Wuxian is the wild card because he actually doesn't value political power that much. We at least need to establish, like, what does everybody else give a shit about.

Shan 

We're gonna divide this because there's two different time periods. So let's start with the first life of Wei Wuxian, the first time period. 

When the show starts, we are dropped into the story in a very confusing manner. Wei Wuxian is resurrected. He's in a new body 16 years after he died. He doesn't know why the fuck he's back or what's going on. He runs into lots of friends and allies and enemies and frenemies and he is running around like a chicken with his head cut off. He's confused. We're confused. You're not really supposed to understand what's going on in those first couple episodes, but there's actually a ton of information packed into them. As Ben said, once you have context, if you go back and watch them, there's so much information in those first couple episodes.

NiNi 

This is the “this is nonsense” stage.

Shan 

Exactly. This is the stage one. Where you're like, “What the fuck is going on? Why are all these people running around like this? I don't understand anything.” [laughs] It's intended to be kind of disorienting. 

Then you jump into this long flashback, which is about 30 episodes long. So you get the political power struggle between the great clans. There are five of them: the Jiang which Wei Wuxian is part of, the Lan, which Lan Wangji is part of, the Nie, the Jin, the Wen. That main political power struggle is driven by the Wens trying to do a hostile takeover of the other clans. They burn the Cloud Recesses, they storm the Unclean Realm, they sack Lotus Pier, and then the war—the Sunshot Campaign—is a response to that, the other clans joining hands to try to stop the Wens from trying to take over the cultivation world. Lots of complex dynamics between the clans going on there that we will not get into that culminates in this Battle of Nightless City.

Alongside that political power struggle, we have Wei Wuxian's rise to power and his fall from grace. He is incredibly smart. He's a cultivation prodigy. He is also not as reverent about the traditional ways of doing things. He's very interested in unorthodox cultivation methods, including demonic cultivation, which is very much looked down on. As the war played out and as the Wens take control, he was part of fighting them alongside his struggles with controlling his own power. He took great exception to the aftermath of the war, the treatment of the Wen prisoners of war, the more innocent Wen clan members who were not part of this, who are just regular folks or weak cultivators, medical cultivators who didn't actually hurt anyone but were treated badly because they were Wens by the other clans. So he intervened to protect those folks. That is what led to him retreating from the cultivation world to the Burial Mounds to live with the Wens, resurrecting Wen Ning and ultimately setting himself up to be a scapegoat and get ambushed by the other clans, because they were very unhappy with him.

Alongside that, we have a couple very personal storylines going on. One to do with Wei Wuxian's family relationships and the implosion of his clan family, the Jiang family. They are his adopted family, the heir, who is Jiang Cheng, and sister Jiang Yanli, these are his adoptive siblings. It's a very fraught family relationship. His adoptive mother resents him partly because of who his mother is and partly because he outshines her son, the sect heir. When Lotus Pier—their family home—is attacked, both of the Jiang parents die. The clan is basically decimated, Jiang Cheng loses his core, and Wei Wuxian decides to pull a real big noble idiocy. Sacrifice his own life, basically, for his brother, give him his core, tell nobody he did this, and then start cultivating on the demonic path to try to come up with another source of power as part of his survival. His relationship with his brother is, in particular, one of the most interesting and dynamic and complicated relationships of the show. And he has a very, very deep love for his adoptive sister, which of course ends up coming back to bite him when, as a result of him losing control of his powers and starting this battle at Nightless City, his sister is killed in the chaos. Huge traumatic event, causes him to go off the deep end and destroys his relationship with his brother. 

Alongside all that, one more big storyline, of course, is the unfulfilled romance between Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji. We get alongside all this political power struggle stuff, some actually really lovely moments of them. First, meeting each other as teens, Wei Wuxian very infatuated with Lan Zhan right from the beginning, but didn't really understand what his feelings meant. Lan Wangji, of course, did understand what the feelings meant [laughs] and was not happy about it. 

NiNi 

Oh he was so mad, friend. He was so pissed. He's like, “Why do I like this wastrel?”

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan 

“Goddamn it! Why is it you?” 

So yeah, big gay panic on poor Wangji's side and big oblivious nonsense on Wuxian’s side. But then we see them over time bond over their shared values. They actually believe in a lot of the same core ideas. They end up doing adventures together. They defeat bad guys together. They survive together and support each other. They kind of develop, like, a deep friendship that on Wangji's side is always very consciously also romantic love and on Wuxian's side is a little bit more oblivious. 

When Wuxian loses his core and starts doing demonic cultivation, there is a divide that comes between them. Wangji does not understand these decisions. Wuxian will not tell him why he's doing any of this stuff. So they end up in this very tense dynamic where they're fighting all the time, but they don't wanna be fighting because they really care about each other. They spend some time together and attempt to reconnect, but of course everything ends in despair when Wei Wuxian basically jumps off the cliff after his sister dies at Nightless City and gives up on his life. And that is how the first life arc completes.

00:46:32 - The First Life: Thoughts and Impressions

Ben 

What I think works well with the drama, I personally like dropping us in and just being like, there's a lot of shit going on. You guys are gonna have to figure out a lot of shit over time. And I actually, in retrospect, like the very long 30-something episode flashback sequence. I think if they had tried to maintain the back and forth nature of the source material, the audience who maybe missed an episode or two here or there would be confused as hell. 

I also think it's a pretty clever choice because you start in the present and there's way too much shit going on. And then they flash back like, “so anyway, they're in school.” And everybody's like, “okay, I understand school. Let's meet some kids.” I think that's a really smart adaptation choice. Everybody may not understand what's going on in the world of cultivation, but everybody knows what it's like to be bored in a classroom with a stuffy old man telling you to write a bunch of rules down.

NiNi 

I kinda had the opposite reaction. I understand why they structured the story the way that they did, but for me, if they had started at Cloud Recesses, I would have been fine. And I feel like I would have had less of a who's on first kind of thing going. It took me a really long time to clue into what the story was even doing, because I was so confused. I didn't even understand that the Cloud Recesses stuff was a flashback at first. To me, if they had done the story more linearly, I would have gotten it. I understand why they did it the way that they did to set up a hook and to do this reverberation throughout the story of showing that these things happen over and over again. But for me, I would have been fine with a more linear narrative.

Shan 

Part of that is also just your unfamiliarity with cdrama tropes and, like, the signifiers of things like age and timeline shifts and class stuff. One thing I think is really funny, NiNi, is that you cued in so quickly to what the hair was telling you, which I thought was just so funny. [laughs]

NiNi 

This is the only reason I survived. I was reading the show and all the characters through the hairstyles. So I saw Wei Wuxian and his wild little tendrils and I was like, “okay, this guy's a rebel.” And then Lan Wangji with his very structured beehive. I was like, “okay, I know who you are, sir.” And then all the different characters, depending on how their hair was styled, I could get a sense of who they were as a character. If this person is mischievous, if they're playful, if they're, like, rules focused, I could get all of that through the hair. So that was actually really good. [laughs]

I could not remember anybody's names for the longest time. So I was in, like, the chat saying, “what is Beehive doing?” Or “Tendrils is acting a fool today.” And they would know exactly what I was talking about.  [laughs]

Shan 

It really worked for you. 

NiNi

It really did work.

Shan

NiNi was tracking as Wangji's beehive was getting bigger and bigger.

NiNi 

It was massive at one point. I was like, “oh, you are really trying to intimidate people now with this.” Like, that's what's happening here.

Shan 

It's true. Like, their hair changes with their status and with their age, right? So as Wangji attains higher status in the cultivation world, his hair pieces get more elaborate and huge. It's actually a very effective visual language.

NiNi 

It's like the Texas rule: the higher the hair, the closer to God.

Ben 

I mean, you're genuinely not wrong.

Shan 

No, it's real. I'm something that cued for you.

NiNi 

It really paid off for me at the end when Wangji comes to Wei Wuxian and his hair is all down and soft. I'm like, “oh my God, he's so in love.” 

Shan 

That's when NiNi just started melting. 

NiNi 

I did, I absolutely did. He had no beehive. He was entirely defenseless, basically, in front of this man. It's a great visual language for when you have this censorship that you can't say certain things and show certain things. Showing what was happening between the characters through the hair was very effective. For me, anyway.

Bookworm 

One of the key moments when NiNi really queued into the beehive and the tendrils thing was when, after Wei Wuxian was thrown into the Burial Mounds and Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji was searching for him, he just walked up to the Wen headquarters and the reveal was just slowly, you see his hair and then he just keeps walking with his sword out and NiNi just was like, “Oh, he has the biggest hive I've ever seen. You guys are done for.” [laughs]

NiNi

Like, these motherfuckers are dead! 

Bookworm

Dead.

NiNi

His beehive is up there, okay—

Shan 

Beehive is up. The sword is out.

NiNi 

He came to kill somebody, that's what's happening right now. [laughs]

Ben 

I think what works so well for me with the show and especially on, like, secondary or tertiary watches, is because you start off being told this is a tragedy. It, I think, puts you in the right mood when you're watching the past stuff. The show opens with people literally fighting each other for a plot token. We're watching cultivators in the midst of a crisis literally stab each other to grasp what they hope will make them stronger than other people. So we're ready for everything that's gonna go wrong because of the opening sequence. It's very well structured and why I think the show got away with so much. We know Wei Wuxian’s gonna die. We know that his brother is gonna be furious with him at his death and we know that this guy who's wearing all these white clothes is gonna be very upset about it when that happens. This set me up very well to anticipate a lot of what was coming.

You end up meeting all these characters in the past and then some of these people are just straight up dead 16 years later. And it's like, well, how did these people die? I thought the war was over. And this leads to the next phase of power play stuff that's happening.

00:53:00 - The First Life: WangXian and Other Fucked Up Love Stories

Ben

While this drama is censored, there is all sorts of really fucked up gay energy all over this story. 

Shan 

Let's talk about how impressively they managed to communicate the romance without being able to show anything explicit.

NiNi 

The romances, because I clocked about four romances in this thing and I was told that I was correct, so I'm so proud of myself. [Nandy and Shan laugh] There's two het romances and two queer romances. The het romances are between Jiang Yanli and Jin Zixuan—

Ben 

I love that they low-key hated their brother-in-law. [NiNi laughs] Like, that's such an appropriate brother experience.

NiNi 

There was nothing low-key about it, bestie. High-key hated. 

Shan 

Zixuan is very immature. He likes Yanli, but he's embarrassed that he likes her. And so he's kind of mean to her. And she, for some fucking reason that I never understood, just really likes him anyway. Which is why her brothers hate him. They do eventually get married and for their extremely brief marriage seem to be happy together.

NiNi 

So brief, so sad. We'll get into that a little bit later.

Ben 

Their marriage is arranged originally by their parents because their families have been allies for at least a generation or two and this is an attempt to strengthen that, and so the parents want these two kids to like each other. It's actually beneficial for the political goals of the families that in the end the kids actually do like each other. But there's complications. People never understand Wei Wuxian's relationship with Yanli, people constantly misread his relationship with her. And then there's the genuine issue of of Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian fucking despising Zixuan for being such a dick to their sister all the time.

NiNi 

I keep thinking about the whole inn thing where he takes over the entire inn and they can't even get a room. It's so fucking dumb. And he's such an asshole about it. [laughs]

Bookworm 

This is the storyline where I was glad that this was here because amongst all the fighting and the flying and the magical shit happening, like fighting a giant tortoise and being generals in war and all of that, this is where you're like, “oh, they're teenagers. Oh, they're so stupid.” [laughs]

NiNi

That's so true! 

Shan 

It's a good reminder that they’re all teenagers.

Bookworm 

Every time Jiang Yanli gives a pass to that man, I'm like, “oh my god. What?”

Ben 

I'm like, “girl, him, really?”

NiNi

You're like, Yanli, stand up! Stand up, girl.

Shan

It gets even wilder in the context of the political power struggle going on and the scapegoating of Wei Wuxian because that's her fucking brother and the Jins are going after him! So it's very wild to me that Yanli decides to marry into the family that is actively hunting her brother. Like, girl.

Ben 

I get the sense that she never understood how serious that was and I think she felt like her one big tantrum solved the problem.

Shan 

I do think that they set this character up well for that to be believable. She is not a strong cultivator. She is not very involved in sect politics. She is a very caring person who just loves who she loves and doesn't really want to deal with the idea that they won't get along. So she just doesn't allow it to be true in her head. And Wei Wuxian loves her. So, he was never going to say to her, “I don't want you to marry that man who's trying [laughs] to hunt me.” Because he wants her to be happy. 

I think her character makes sense. But she's a character that I can never personally get on board with, because I'm just like, “girl, your choices are so bad.” 

Ben 

I feel for her the same way I feel about the messy hets in Coffee Prince. Like, we needed, like, another like pat but tragic het story to make sure that we could get away with this very queer story.

Shan 

That's a good segue to talk about the other very subtle mini romance between Jiang Cheng and Wen Qing. Not in the books, by the way, this was added only for the show. And I think Ben, when we were watching, you commented that you thought it was really there to add an additional layer of heterosexual plausibility and plausible deniability for the show.

NiNi 

I feel like that was part of it, yes, but that is also a romance that doesn't happen. Jiang Cheng is definitely in love with Wen Qing. Wen Qing feels sort of the same, but Wen Qing is also an incredibly practical woman and Jiang Cheng is not saying anything that is going to help her. Like at one point, after everything's gone down with the Wen clan he was just like, “You should leave your clan.” Which is basically him asking her to marry him, and she's like “Dude, really? How do you think this is gonna go? My clan killed your parents, you are the heir and then you're going to bring me there as your wife? That's not gonna work.”

Shan 

I thought it was a really good way to illustrate the rock and hard place that Jiang Cheng was between for all of this show. 

NiNi 

Oh my god, I love this character.

Shan 

Right? He did care about the Wens. He did wanna help. But politically, there was only so much he could do and what he could do was not enough. He knew that. She knew that. They had to accept that. Given the circumstances he was in with a mostly decimated clan, very young and suddenly thrust into having to lead and rebuild the Jiangs, he just didn't have the power and the resources to do something like offer protection to the Wens. He couldn't do it. And he was not willing to risk the total decimation of his clan in order to try.

That's why he and Wei Wuxian ultimately broke, right? Wei Wuxian knew that. Which is why he left the clan to do it on his own. It's really good conflict because you can see that people care and they wanna try, but they just can't do what they think they should or what they want to. Wuxian did do those things and he paid for it, big time.

Ben 

See, and this is why I like it so much. If we're gonna have to do gay tragedy in a story, I need hets to suffer too. [laughs] Nobody's happy! The Jiang family relationship sucks. The leader of the Jin clan is a womanizer and an abuser who doesn't give a shit about all of his bastards he leaves all over the place. He's a gross, nasty man. The only happy heterosexuals we had died within a year of having their baby. 

Ope, nope that's not fair. Mianmian’s doing okay. Good for her.

Bookworm

Mianmian’s doing great. How dare you! [Ben laughs]

Shan 

She's the one happy het person in this show. [NiNi laughs] She's the one.

Bookworm 

The only sensible one.

NiNi 

Because—

Ben 

She supported the gays. 

NiNi

Mianmian stood up for the gays, exactly.

Ben

That's right!

Bookworm 

Yes!

Shan 

And because she left the clan. She said, “Fuck this shit, I'm goin’ rogue” and did her own thing.

Ben

One of the reasons why I think some of the other censored stuff fails is they just don't have enough hetero plausible deniability in them. You have to give the straight audience a bone if you're trying to get stuff past the powers that be. 

Shan 

Let's talk about the third love story that is technically never explicitly confirmed in book canon, but that's in my opinion only because the book is from Wuxian's point of view and he doesn't have the visibility to see it. That is, of course, Meng Yao and Lan Xichen.

NiNi 

My God.

NiNi

The most tragic of all the tragedies.

Bookworm 

Oh no! No no no!

Shan 

Go off, Bookworm.

Bookworm 

I just don't agree with the tragic part of it because for somebody in Lan Xichen’s position, he is so oblivious. He was played like a fiddle by this man. This is, like, dialed to a hundred in the show because the way Meng Yao was played in the show, you see him on screen just smirking around. And I'm like, “This man, he doesn't have good intentions. You can't trust him!”

NiNi 

For me, that's the tragedy. The visual language and everything, like the acting is telling me this is a villain. But I trust Lan Xichen so much that when Lan Xichen trusts Meng Yeo, at first I'm just like, okay, well, there must be a reason. If he trusts him, maybe I'm reading this all wrong or maybe this is a plot because he trusts him so completely. And he is destroyed for that in the end. Like, absolutely destroyed.

Shan 

I actually love that reflection, NiNi. I think that's a really fair way to read it.

Bookworm 

I just want to quickly add that NiNi basically got Nie Mingjue’d into this. Like she basically did the same thing that Nie Mingjue did.

Shan 

[laughs] That's really true. Nie Mingjue, their other sworn brother, who goes along with trusting Meng Yao—even though he clearly doesn't—only because Xichen asks him to.

Bookworm 

And then he got his head chopped off for it!

NiNi 

He got got. [laughs]

Ben 

It's so fun watching people watch this show. NiNi's like, “ooh, I love this Dimples of Doom boy.” And I'm like, okay, she's falling for the dimples. And then he stabs the battalion commander in the middle of a battle. And NiNi's like, “oh, I guess I can't like this boy anymore.” [laughs]

NiNi 

Then he had a really good explanation for it. And I was just like, “okay, maybe I can.” This is the thing!

Shan

He's good at what he does.

Bookworm 

She saw that man stab the commander and then Mingjue called him into the room to throw him out of the sect, and do you remember what NiNi said? She said, “Can you at least treat this man for the stab wound before you throw him out of the sect?”

[all laugh]

NiNi 

By the end, I was like, no, you should have killed him. Banishment was too good. You would have saved a lot of people if you had just killed this man in that moment.

Ben 

I do not feel sorry for Xichen, because there were so many signs and he actively ignored all of them.

Bookworm 

Yes.

Shan 

We'll get into the second life arc, but like it took until the very, very end for him to accept, despite all the evidence he saw, despite everything he witnessed over two decades of being friends with this man. 

To be clear, Meng Yao, who becomes Jin Guangyao when he moves up in the world, he's married to a woman. But Xichen is basically in this hopeless love with him. They're both clan leaders. They cannot become a couple in a real way, because of their position in society. And because of that love, he is so susceptible to manipulation. He just believes whatever Meng Yao tells him, even if it doesn't make sense. He will believe Meng Yao's words over his own lyin’ eyes. 

Ben 

Wangji and Wei Wuxian: “We have evidence that this man is the most evil.” Xichen: “Okay, but have you considered that I love him? Jot that down.”

[all laugh]

Bookworm 

Oh, I hate him!

Shan 

That is exactly what it is! It’s so wild.

Bookworm 

Oh, my god.

NiNi 

That is not even an exaggeration, that is almost exactly how it goes down.

Bookworm 

I think it's a good connective theme between all three of these romances, that people have their own ways to separate the politics of the person that they like. And when they want to protect them, do they wanna choose diplomacy, do they wanna choose brute force, do they wanna choose compromise, what route do they take? You can see that Jiang Cheng, when he came to the proposal, he must know that that's not gonna happen. But you can see that there is this need to protect this woman who he knows is innocent. He also knows that he has this huge weight of clan politics, that he's now the clan leader and his clan is severely wounded and he has to make responsible choices to weigh between whether I choose my clan or whether I choose to do everything I could to protect this person, which is what I want to do in my heart.

My problem with Xichen is he doesn't really separate what the politics or the clan is going through and what Meng Yao is basically feeding him. You shouldn't be this gullible to a person who is basically another important figure in another clan that you know is doing just shady shit. You know they're having prisoners of war. You saw them use them for target practice. You saw them abuse the prisoners of war, beat them and kill them and all of that and this man is a part of that clan. Not just a part, he is pretty high up in the ladder. 

Ben 

He's also a known spy.

Shan

Yes!

NiNi

Exactly! Precisely!

Bookworm

I know! Exactly!

Shan

You're right, Xichen does not have an excuse. He witnessed this stuff with his own eyes.

Ben 

I don't care how prettily he blinks in frustration. He's stupid. [laughs]

NiNi

Bookworm, I found what you just said really entirely fascinating because I think that one of the reasons, then, that Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji works is that neither of them are directly in line to take over the clans. Wei Wuxian is an adoptee. He's not ever gonna take over the Jiang clan. So he does in some ways have to make his own way. And Lan Wangji is the second son. He also has to go his own way. So the politics for them, they're still the politics of clan loyalty and all of that, but they don't have the leadership responsibilities that all these other romances are involved with. 

So what they can do and particularly what Lan Wangji can do to protect Wei Wuxian is far beyond what any of the other romances can do to compromise, protect, whatever. Lan Wangji just basically decides, that's my man, and nobody's gonna touch him. Even when I am mad at him, even when I don't understand what he's doing, nobody is touchin’ that man, ‘cause that's my man.

01:10:06 - The First Life: Various Random Musings

Ben 

Before we leave the first life stuff, let's do a couple of quick hits. Favorite moments from the first life, starting with the school shit through the Battle of Nightless City.

Shan

My favorite moments tend to be tied to Wangji, of course, and his emotional landscape. So, the standout moments that feel really crucial to his character arc are where he reaches this emotional cliff that he falls over, and that happens for him several times. It happens when he is sitting with Wei Ying making a lantern—

Ben 

I knew she was gonna fuckin' say that.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan 

—and he draws him a rabbit on the lantern, which makes him smile. But the more important moment there is that he listens as Wuxian makes a vow for how he wants to live his life. And Wangji turns to him and looks at him like, “oh shit, I see you. I understand you now.” He agrees with the morality of the values that he holds. And that's a huge moment for him. They were in this stage where Wuxian was being a pest and Wangji was having his little gay panic and they were kind of adversarial with each other. And that moment really shifted things for him emotionally where he was like, “I understand him. We are actually on the same page about the things that matter. And I cannot go back to not knowing that.”

And then, as they have their adventures together and they get to know each other better, moments like in the cave with the tortoise, where Wangji kind of explicitly acknowledges his romantic feelings—not in a way that Wuxian can understand and receive, but he definitely does. And then the rain scene on Qiongqi Path, when he makes a choice to not stop Wuxian from leaving with the Wen prisoners of war, but also not join him. I think that was a huge moment for him where he came up against his own limitations about what he felt he could do for Wuxian. He was not actually willing to break from his clan and help him, but he didn't stand in his way. 

And then of course that all culminates in his attempts to bring Wuxian back into the cultivation world that ultimately go sideways because of the machinations of the Jins, and the moment where he is forced to let him go when he is falling off the cliff. That is the moment where his heart just shatters. And then, we'll pick up with him 16 years later and all his regrets.

Ben 

Alright, Shan, no crying yet. 

Shan 

I'm doing great.

Bookworm

Bookworm!

Bookworm

I will fight Shan for Lan Wangji if I have to.

NiNi 

I think we all will.

Shan 

Don't even try it.

Bookworm 

Most of my favorite moments will also be tied to Wangji. Shan already mentioned a lot of them, but we still have a couple. After we see Wei Wuxian lose his core, get thrown in the Burial Mounds and learn demonic cultivation, when he shows up in that Yiling supervisory office wearing red eyeliner and a black robe on—

Shan

It just naturally goes on, the evil spirits put the eyeliner on. 

[NiNi laughs]

Ben

It’s one of the many ghosts in the sword.

[all laugh]

Bookworm

Just full emo get up and gets his revenge on Wen Chao while Lan Zhan and Jiang Cheng is watching. That scene was very well depicted, it was very well shot, was very well acted. I really liked the tension of Lan Wangji realizing that something is different and you can see his heartbreak, you can see him calculating what's going on. You can see him just being so happy to finally see Wei Wuxian. He was gone for months and he just showed up in the middle of a war. And my man wanted to just, I don't know, grab him and kiss, but no, this guy wanted to murder. That was his first priority and it broke him. That is one of my favorite moments. I mean, obviously, I'm very normal. It's fine.

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

There was the moment after the archery competition. Phoenix Mountain Hunt. We see Wei Wuxian just lounging in a tree and Lan Zhan shows up and they finally, finally have this conversation where they try to ease some of the tension that they've been holding because of Wei Ying’s, like, reticence to engage with Lan Zhan, when he asks what is wrong and Lan Zhan going insane basically trying to figure out what is happening with Wei Wuxian, why he's not following the sword path, why he has turned to demonic cultivation. I think that that is one of the iconic moments in the show and of course it has a whole discourse about the “soulmates” translation. 

Shan

I think the actual word is zhiji and it doesn't have a direct literal English translation. So, no translation is really capturing it correctly.

Bookworm 

But it was translated as, I think, soulmate for the show.

Shan

Lifelong bosom companion!

NiNi 

And they were roommates!

Ben 

He's my boon companion.

Bookworm 

I really liked that conversation and how it diffused a little bit of that tension that they were holding, and then of course everything goes to shit. But at least they were happy for a brief moment.

NiNi 

I think for me, there's three things that tie together into a line. The two caves and then when Lan Wangji meets Wei Wuxian in Yiling Town and he invites him to come back to the Burial Mounds for dinner.

Ben 

There were two caves! [laughs] Oh my god!

Shan 

There were, that's legit.

Ben 

Goddamn, there are a lot of caves in this fucking story.

Bookworm 

The caves belong to the gays. It is what it is.

NiNi 

I think those three points in the story form a very interesting line because the first cave is the Cold Pond Cave and they meet up with Lan Wangji's ancestor who developed the Lan clan's signature martial arts magic style and she basically explains to them their mission, what they have to do, this thing about the plot MacGuffin, the Yin Iron. But it's so interesting to me, when they came out of the cave, it's like Wei Wuxian instinctively understood that they don't tell anybody about what happened in the cave. I found that was an interesting change and dynamic to their relationship and also very gay. 

And then when they're trapped in the cave with the Tortoise of Slaughter—

Ben 

She really could not get over that fucking name.

NiNi

I could not. [Ben and Shan laugh] The Tortoise of Slaughter, okay. Yeah, so they're fighting this thing and Wei Wuxian basically goes into its shell and finds this sword which is the first step on the path to his demonic cultivation. Everything that happens from the moment he touches that sword took him directly to his break with all the clans and ending up in the Burial Mounds in the first place so that when they see each other after such a long time apart, after everything, and he's just like, “Hey friend, how are you? Come to dinner at my house. You're gonna go fight a monster? Fuck that. Come over.” It's, like, basically like the “Hey big head” text of all time. And I was completely into it. 

Ben 

Hold on, I just got triggered.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi 

It was such a romantic moment for me. You feel Lan Zhan's feelings the entire time, but it's really the first time that you feel Wei Wuxian's feelings for Lan Zhan and how they confuse him. He knows that he has these strong feelings and he wants Lan Zhan to be around him and in his life. But it's almost like, he doesn't know what to call it or at least he can't face what to call it.

Ben 

I like moments in the past where people's personal ethics and loyalty to people who have helped them directly makes them ignore the responsibilities they may have to their clan. So, the first one for me is when Wen Ning poisons his own clan to help Wei Wuxian rescue Jiang Cheng.

Shan

I knew it was going to be about Wen Ning. Ben loves Wen Ning.

Ben 

I really do. You mentioned him twice earlier and I held it in. 

Shan 

She did so good.

Ben 

That moment's earned. Because Wei Wuxian showed him regard and kindness earlier and he returned it in kind. 

The next big moment I like is Yanli's tantrum when she's like, you better keep my brother's name out your fucking mouth. Because that was really fun for a character who's been very reserved, who doesn't really challenge a lot of people. We have not really seen how all of the trauma they've survived directly impacted her. I really liked her in that moment, putting her foot down, like, “fuck you, I don't care.” You can see Wei Wuxian barely holding onto his control, and the only two things holding him back are his sister and his not-boyfriend. And then, like, within five episodes, neither of them will be present, and everything's gonna go to shit.

NiNi 

Yep, pretty much.

01:20:53 - Outro: Notes From the Future

Ben 

It's Ben and NiNi from the future! 

NiNi 

All the way in the future. So far in the future. 

Ben 

This episode is too fucking long. We're sorry, guys. We had a lot to say and we got Bookworm in the booth. It's also The Untamed. It's a very fucking long drama. So we're gonna take a pause here after the end of our discussion of Wei Wuxian's first life, and we'll pick up in the next episode with his second life. We appreciate you all for joining us. 

NiNi 

Yeah, we talk too much and so, there's gonna be two episodes. So see you guys in the next one! 

Say bye to the people, Ben. 

Ben

Peace! 

[the-conversation-pod]

Hello our patient Conversationalists! Aunty NiNi has finally graduated, then had to lay down for a week because old people need rest after doing young things. But we're back in the lab now cooking up some cool stuff for y'all. Soon my beauties, soon. In the meantime, our inbox is open, go ahead and drop us a question, comment, or even just a note saying how much you missed us.

Catch y'all in a bit!

Ben, NiNi and Shan

[the-conversation-pod]

Y'all out there? Been a minute.

NiNi's seasonal allergies have arrived which means that the longest winter ever is finally over. Auntie is also on a sprint to graduation so season 10 (TEN!) is not opening for business QUITE yet, but our inbox is! Drop us a question, or a comment, and it may be featured on the show!

See y'all soon(ish)

NiNi, Ben and Shan

[the-conversation-pod]

The Very Important Internet BL (VIIB) Awards 2024

AND WE'RE BACK

It's time for NiNi's and Ben's favorite annual tradition: our VIIB Awards! Come join us as we hand out awards for Acting, Ships, Immortal Technique, and Top Tings!

Then, stick around as we talk about our special class awards for queer works that don't necessarily qualify as QL.

We will include the Winner's List at the top of the transcript below (so scroll past it if you want to avoid spoilers).

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:00:55 - Introduction: It's Awards Season Once More 00:02:09 - Acting! 00:08:00 - Ships Ahoy! 00:16:31 - Immortal Technique 00:29:05 - Top Tings 00:41:43 - Special Class Awards 00:43:11 - Special Class: Honourable Mentions 00:47:36 - Special Class: Mark Pakin 6th Man Awards 00:51:13 - Special Class: Standout Queer Narratives 01:06:00 - Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

Winners’ List:

Rising Star: Aungpao Ochiris Suwanacheep (Dynamite, Cooking Crush; Khaopan, My Love Mix Up, TH)

Best Cast: Modi (Wei Qian), Kurt Huang (Wei Zhi Yuan), Tammy Lin (Wei Li Li), Kim Jae Hoon (San Pang) (Unknown, TW)

Best Pair: Tay Tawan Vihokratana (Karan) and New Thitipoom Techa-apaikhun (Achi) (Cherry Magic Thailand, TH)

Best Actor: Lee Tae Vin (Tae Myung Ha, Love for Love’s Sake, KR)

Best Ghost Ship: Mawin/Ton (23.5, TH)

Best Friendship: Three Must-eat-eers: Prem, Dynamite, Samsee (Cooking Crush, TH)

Best Side Ship: Fire/Dynamite (Cooking Crush, TH)

Best Main Ship: Shiba/Haruto (Doku Koi: Doku mo Sugireba Koi to Naru (Love Is A Poison), JP)

Best OST Song: “Camino” - Let Free The Curse Of Taekwondo, KR (performed by Gogang, music and lyrics by Gogang and Jung Mijin)

Best Music: 4Minutes, TH (Banana Sound Studio, composer: Toy Terdsak Janpan, MS: Pimmata Patpibul, Jeerapat Jongkolsongkroh)

Best Production: Love For Love's Sake, KR (AD: Ha Ye Rim)

Best Original Story: Hwang Da Seul (Let Free The Curse Of Taekwondo, KR)

Best Adapted Story: Toyama Erika (I Became the Star of a BL Drama, adapted from BL Drama no Shuen ni Narimashita by Suzuri Machi, JP)

Best Direction: 25 Ji, Akasaka de (At 25:00 In Akasaka), JP (Dir: Horie Takahiro and Kawasaki Ryo, DP: Hanamura Yasushi, Ed: Kitani Mizuki)

Best GL: Tsukuritai Onna to Tabetai Onna (She Loves to Cook and She Loves To Eat) (NHK, JP)

Best Pulp: Knock Knock, Boys! (Kongthup Production/WeTV, TH)

Best Romantic Comedy: Doku Koi: Doku mo Sugireba Koi to Naru (Love Is A Poison) (TBS, JP)

Best Romantic Drama: 25 Ji, Akasaka de (At 25:00 In Akasaka) (TV Tokyo, JP)

Best Genre Romance: Love For Love’s Sake (Wavve Studios, KR)

Show of the Year: Let Free The Curse Of Taekwondo (Studio Him Energetic Company, KR)

Honourable Mentions: 

7 Days Before Valentine (TH) - Experimental

Tadaima Okaeri and Twilight Out of Focus (JP) - Animated

6th Man Awards: 

Dome Jaruwat Cheawaram (Cooking Crush, Jack & Joker)

Title Kirati Puangmalee (We Are, Wandee Goodday, Kidnap)

Standout Queer Narratives: 

Ossan no Pantsu ga Nandatte Ii Janai ka (Don’t Care For An Old Man’s Underwear) (JP) - family drama

Marahuyo Project (PH) - community drama

Love In The Big City (KR) - slice of life drama

Kimi no Tsugu Kaori wa (Fragrance You Inherit) (JP) - family drama

Interview With the Vampire (US) - southern gothic drama

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic.

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the VIIBs queen.

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL.

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:00:55 - Introduction: It's Awards Season Once More

*trumpet fanfare*

Ben 

And we're back. It's time for our favorite annual tradition. It's time for the VIIB Awards.

NiNi 

Yes, we are here to discuss all the best things that we saw in 2024 and that you should watch, as well. We've got five main categories in the VIIB Awards. Acting, ships, immortal technique, top tings, and our special class awards.

Ben 

For those of you who are new to us, this is the Very Important Internet BL Awards. NiNi and I started our show on this and we will be handing out plates once again to our favorite boys, girls, and otherwise stellar performers.

Ben 

NiNi got deep into her cups before we started and she was late, so unfortunately I am also deep into my cups already.

NiNi

So we're just gonna have some fun and try to get through these as quickly as possible before we get blotto.

00:02:09 - Acting!

NiNi

Let's start with our acting awards.

The great thing about being an actor is that you're invited into people's worlds that you normally would never be invited into. People want to tell their stories, they want to be seen, they want to be understood. As an actor you just get to go on these incredible journeys that most people are never invited to or never have an opportunity to travel.

Mark Ruffalo

NiNi

And the first award is Rising Star. Our awardee for Rising Star this year is Aungpao Ochiris Suwanacheep, who played Dynamite in Cooking Crush and Khaopan in My Love Mix-Up. 

We love Aungpao on this podcast. We loved Dynamite. It was the first thing we ever saw him do, and we fell immediately in love with the character. And every time I've seen Aungpao since then this year, he has delivered. So I'm really looking forward to seeing what he does next. Very excited about him.

Ben 

I'm so excited for him. I thought he did a great job in both of his roles despite feelings I have about both shows. Congratulations, sir. We will be sending you a plate.

NiNi 

Did we ever decide what we're putting on these plates? We're going into the third year of the VIIB awards and we don't know what's going on these plates.

Ben 

It is clearly gonna be like two Caribbean mason jars full of like a fruity drink.

NiNi 

It’s gonna be brown liquor! [laughs] 

Ben 

Hell yeah.

NiNi 

Amazing. 

*xylophone sound*

Our next award is going to the Best Cast of the year, and this award is for the best ensemble performance, including individual performances, chemistry, and interplay.

Ben 

This is going to go to the cast of Unknown, including Modi–also known as Chris Chiu, Kurt Huang, Tammy Lin, and Kim Jae Hoon. 

This was really a special cast playing off a really complicated dynamic which takes place in-world over the course of years. So we had to watch them play maturing characters in ever-changing dynamics the whole time. Really stellar group performance from them and it resulted in some really standout individual scenes that are easy highlight reel footage.

NiNi 

They were the best cast that we saw this year in terms of the way that they gelled together and the individual performances. So congratulations, plate for you guys from Unknown.

What's our next award, Ben?

Ben 

Best Pair! Best Pair goes to the best couple performance, including individual performances, chemistry, and interplay between them. This is basically going to, because this is a romance show awards, the best couple that we saw from the acting pair this year.

NiNi 

Best Pair for 2024 is Tay Tawan Vihokratana and New Thitipoom Techaapaikhun playing Karan and Achi in Cherry Magic Thailand.

Cherry Magic Thailand was one of the best things that we saw last year, and Tay Tawan and New Thitipoom have been around for a really long time. They’ve been working together for about eight years, and every time they come back they're better and better and better, and I think that Cherry Magic Thailand was probably the best that I've ever seen them. I have not always been a New fan but he has shut my mouth lately, and I love Tay Tawan.

Best pair of the year.

Ben 

I was really impressed by them because taking over a work that is so beloved and having to perform characters that already have very strong, memorable performances is a really difficult task to do. And I think these two did a good job balancing our expectations of their dynamic based upon previous outings with meeting the demands of the work that they were adapting. That was an incredibly well done execution by both of them.

*xylophone sound*

NiNi 

Our final award in the acting category is our Best Actor, and that's for the Best Performance of the Year. Ben, who is our Best Actor for 2024?

Ben 

It's Lee Taevin for his role as Tae Myungha from Love for Love's Sake. 

Lee Taevin really wanted to take on a role like this, and he did such a great job playing the complex layers of darkness and difficulty that his character is carrying in this. It is hard to get too deep into the nuances of his performance without spoiling it for those who have not listened to our previous episode or watched the show. But in a year with some really, really strong performances within BL, the top performance goes to Lee Taevin.

NiNi 

He really stood out this year. I mean, we had a little bit of a hard time picking this one, but we landed up on him because Tae Myungha is such a visceral character. I felt everything that they wanted the character to have us feel. All the confusion, all the despair, I really, really felt the depth of his work.

Ben

Lee Taevin the veteran actor amongst the cast here, and he's the type of actor who clearly elevates other actors around them. That's a pretty important skill for him to have developed at his relatively young age. 

So congratulations, sir. Hope to see more of you next year.

00:08:00 - Ships Ahoy!

NiNi 

Moving on to our ships category.

Ben 

It's time for our SIMPY Awards! Let's go girls!

Hot Priest: Love is awful. It's awful, it's painful, it's frightening. It makes you doubt yourself, judge yourself, distance yourself from the other people in your life. It makes you selfish, makes you creepy, makes you obsessed with your hair, makes you cruel, makes you say and do things you never thought you would do.

Sister: There's something wrong with your priest.

Hot Priest: It's all any of us want and it's hell when we get there so no wonder it's something we don't want to do on our own. I was taught if we're born with love then life is about choosing the right place to put it. People talk about that a lot, it feeling right. When it feels right it's easy. But I'm not sure that's true. It takes strength to know what's right. Love isn't something that weak people do. Being a romantic takes a hell of a lot of hope. I think what they mean is when you find somebody that you love, it feels like hope.

Fleabag, Season 2 Episode 6

NiNi

I'm going to let Ben take it away with our first award in the ship category, which is the Best Ghost Ship. It should have happened and we should have seen it. So who is our best ghost ship of 2024?

Ben 

It's Mawin and Ton from 23.5.

This is how Euro can still win. We're gonna give him an award [NiNi laughs] because they should have let him kiss one of the twins in the last goddamn year or so.

NiNi 

He should have let him kiss both of the twins. He had the chance.

Ben 

We went with this one because there was an interesting narrative reason for them to have leaned into the tension that his character, Mawin, was developing with Ton, particularly because of his crush on a different character. In this case, more than any of them, they should have let them kiss…just a little bit.

NiNi 

Euro, we love you on this podcast. One of these days they will let you kiss a boy. I swear.

*xylophone sound*

Okay, moving on to the greatest of the ships, Best Friendship.

Ben 

This goes to our best besties of the year. This is not an award for the people who are the best at supporting the romantic outcomes for a couple. It is about the characters whose friendship itself is so critical to the function of these characters' lives that it in some ways challenges or even supersedes any of the romances that occur in the work. 

NiNi 

Our winners for Best Friendship go to the Three Must-eat-ers Prem, Dynamite, and Samsee from Cooking Crush, because without their friendship Cooking Crush does not work at all. It is probably more central to the story than the relationships between Prem and Ten and between Dynamite and Fire. They focus on each other and they care about each other and they're allowed to get angry at each other and when they're angry at each other they apologize for the stupid shit that they did.

Ben

We had two veteran actors who I love a lot playing Samsee and Prem with a newcomer in Dynamite. And I think it was really impressive to see the two veterans support the newcomer and create a beloved character as a result. 

This group has a real fight and breakdown in the show that challenges the core friendship itself. I found myself more moved by the resolution of the fight this friend group was having than I was any of the romantic challenges.

NiNi 

Congratulations to the Three Must-eat-ers. We will be sending you a plate.

*xylophone sound*

Ben 

On to Best Side Ship, NiNi's favorite award every goddamn year! [both laugh]

NiNi 

We decided this year that we were not gonna fight over this award. The best side ship goes to the secondary couple who best reinforce the themes of the primary couple's story.

Ben, you tell the people who has won.

Ben 

It's going to Fire and Dynamite. You thought I was done awarding Aungpao. [snickers]

NiNi 

We're never done awarding Aungpao.

Ben

You had this really interesting dynamic with Ten fighting his dad and Prem dealing with his own anxieties where on the opposite side you had Dynamite presenting himself as really forthright and open about what he is and Fire avoiding his mom. These two balanced out very well with their main couple of their show and it's not a surprise that the best side ship went to also the show with the best friendship because the character and relationship writing on this show was really stand out.

This was one of Neo's, not best known performances, but truly one of my favorites that he's done. I really liked what he did with Fire, especially coming off of playing Boston. That man is an incredibly talented actor and we are very lucky that he shows up so often for us.

NiNi 

Congratulations Fire and Dynamite, we will be sending you a plate.

Ben 

I just want everybody out there who thinks I hate GMMTV to know that, while I do have beef with them, I am not incapable of applauding good work when I see it.

*xylophone sound*

All right, Best Main Ship. We are in a romance genre. We're here for couples that we believe can make it. This always goes to the couple whose love story we actually buy into and believe. These are the people you return to. These are the ones you show people and they're like, what should I watch? These boys! Sit down!

NiNi, who is our best main ship of the year?

NiNi

Our Best Main Ship of the year is Shiba and Haruto from Love is a Poison, Japanese title Doku koi: Doku mo sugeriba koi to naru. 

The show was hilarious and had so much heart and Shiba and Haruto's relationship at the center of it all is really what pulled me in. The acting is amazing, the writing is amazing, this is a true battle couple (@lurkingshan). They got together and decided that they were going to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back and fight off everybody who tried to come for them.

I believe in them. I believe that they'll last.

Ben 

This show has a fist bump involving rings that legit made me understand what it means to swoon. This show whipped ass! It may seem like an oddity show, ignore that part. Just go fucking watch it (@solitaryandwandering). 

This show understood all of the reservations the audience might have from their initial reaction to them and went out of their way to demolish them. This show was fucking fun and I really loved these two so much. I will be thinking about that man's fake posing during their photo opportunities. I'll be thinking about that towel sequence where he threw it on him in the onsen. Don't think I forgot! [NiNi laughs] These guys were great.

NiNi

They even got to have a yukata moment.

Ben 

They sure did! [snickers]

NiNi 

They fell in love so hard and it was delightful to watch.

Ben 

I just love when a couple fights for each other, especially when one of them can't.

NiNi 

My god. He squared up and then got his ass beat. And it was incredible. [both laugh]

No notes.

00:16:31 - Immortal Technique

Ben 

It's time to do some more traditional awards. We're moving on to Immortal Technique, where we talk about technical and production related awards.

This is one of my favorite sections every year because this is the one that rewards you for paying attention to details.

NiNi 

This is also the one where we basically talk about the people behind the scenes, the people whose names are in the credits but who don't get a lot of credit, and we always love to give that credit out on our show.

As a director I, I kind of, I, I have quite a good ability at—at the very beginning when we're first starting to write the screenplay—I have quite a good ability to imagine the film in my head. Like you know even the very first page of, of, of the script as we do it I can start to imagine the camera angles, the music, I can start to feel how the film's coming together and I sort of have this imaginary film starting to be put together and that's right back at the beginning. And uh, in this case we started this process about five or six years ago and then what happens during the course of the movie is that this this film that's playing in my head always gets modified because as you design the sets, you know then the sets that we've designed replace the ones that I originally sort of imagined and then as the actors come on board their faces put fit into the characters I imagined. And so my little internal movie is always changing and being updated so that, um, it's, it's you know it always ends up better. Everything, every time my film in my head gets changed it's, it's improving all the time because all these all these other people are coming on board and giving their input into it.

Peter Jackson, interviewed by Charlie Rose, 2002

NiNi

We're starting with Best OST Song, and this is for the song as recorded. The style or genre, does the song fit the mood of the show, composition and arrangement, production and performance, usage and listenability. Basically, is it a bop and do you think about it a lot? 

So Ben, what is our Best OST Song of the year?

Ben 

This was actually a pretty extensive discussion we had in the background about this one, but in the end, we are excited to award Camino from Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo, performed by Gogang, music and lyrics by Gogang and Jung Mi Jin.

NiNi 

Man, I love this song. Every time it came on at the beginning of an episode, you just felt yourself sinking into the place that the show wanted you to be. It starts off with this acapella harmonizing that just really got you into your feelings. And then a little bit of piano, a little bit of strings, It was very not flashy, but really effective. 

If you have not watched Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo, I don't know what you're waiting for. Listen to the song in context, then go listen to it out of context. It's a great song.

Ben 

I'm rewatching it right now with Emily. We just started the first episode and legit, the intro starts and she's like, it's one of those shows.

NiNi 

Exactly, puts you straight into the right place that you need to be in.

*xylophone sound*

Ben 

Our next award is for the Best Music. This is the use of music overall. Scoring, music supervision, music editing. It's all about where and how music is used throughout the entire production. As usual, we had a lot of feelings about this one. But in the end, NiNi, we decided to award...

NiNi 

4 Minutes. The composer is Toy Terdsak Janpan, music supervisors Pimmata Patpibul and Jeerapat Jongkolsongkroh and done by Banana Sound Studio.

4 Minutes, one thing that it did do well was everything around the production. And the music in particular was very evocative and very effective at setting mood. The show worked very effectively through the soundscape. It was well done. Kudos to them.

*xylophone sound*

Ben

On to Best Production! This is kind of a catch-all award goes into production design and art direction, set design and dressing, location choice, costuming and hair, makeup, and a little bit of sound design color grading and editing. This is about shows that do a good job with their world building, their aesthetic, and basically do they really capture the vibe.

NiNi 

Best Production this year goes to Love for Love's Sake, art director Ha Ye Rim.

Ben 

You've got a person who is essentially isekai'd into another world. Like he passes out in our world, wakes up inside of what feels like a video game. And they have to convey a lot of details about what's going on with the mechanics of the video game and all the ways that the world is behaving around him. None of this is very easy to do, particularly on a very short runtime. And they manage to give us all of the information and details we need without huge exposition dumps. And they do such a great job.

There are some key details, particularly the work they do with Tae Myungha's eyes and his hair in particular. This is one of those shows that really rewarded us as viewers for paying attention to more details than just what was happening in the subtitles or when the boys were at their prettiest smiling at each other. Paying attention was such an important part of really being able to embrace and understand this experience.

NiNi

It was incredibly impressive, the way that they built up the video game world and all the ways that the video game starts to glitch. It starts so subtly, you almost can't tell and then by the time it builds up you start thinking back to all the little things that showed up in the background that told you that the game was glitching. It is really serious attention to detail that they put into this show and for that we award them a plate.

*xylophone sound*

We're going to move on now to the writing awards, the first one is Best Original Story. So that is for premise, story, screenplay, stage directions, dialogue, character voice, all the things that go into writing an original story.

Ben 

This year's award goes to Hwang da Seul for Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo. Welcome back, ma'am, and well deserved. 

My goodness gracious me. Good job, ma’am. This was one of the most stunning experiences we got to have this year. Once again, you were determined to make us love some boys and then break them up for a ridiculous amount of time and make us really root for them to get back together. And holy shit, you did a great job this time. This was honestly such an unexpected and really special experience. 

The reason why we award Original Story is a significant amount of BL is adapted. A lot of productions, for a lot of valid reasons, rely on adapting existing work that already has a fan base that's ready to support it again and advocate for it. It's always really impressive when someone does something original that manages to cut through the noise and become one of the most memorable things we may have ever watched in genre.

NiNi 

The writing of that confessional scene where Shin Juyoung takes his cross off and puts his forehead on the wall and confesses through the wall. I mean, I don't know how somebody comes up with that, but I got goosebumps.

Ben 

There's the bit where Hyunho is going to Dohoe's house to get something. And Shin Juyoung shows up and we just see the three of them staring at each other in a hallway. There is not much dialogue in this sequence, but that is such a charged moment. Incredible stuff.

*xylophone sound*

NiNi 

So from original story, we're moving to the Best Adapted Story. This is for adaptation of a source work from another medium or another culture. 

Ben, who wrote our best adapted story?

Ben 

Toyama Erika for I Became the Star of a BL Drama, adapted from BL drama no shuen ni narimashita by Suzuri Machi. 

This was the first thing we watched on New Year's Eve into New Year's. This was the show that set the standard of the year for me. This show was legitimately funny. In a really short runtime, they captured the total essence of the story. 

What a solid experience to start the year. And good news, gays, theys, and thems—it’s getting a sequel. [snickers]

NiNi 

[laughs] We are. We are. I'm so excited about that.

Congratulations to Toyama Erika, who wrote, I'm sorry, the best line of the year when the writer of the drama within the drama says, “We will drown the audience in the BL goodness.”

Ben 

That line stands alongside “Every fujoshi has a dick in her heart.”

NiNi

Congratulations to our original story and adapted story writers, Hwang da Seul and Toyama Erika. We will be sending you plates.

*xylophone sound*

Our final technical award goes to Best Direction. This award is for overall vision, filmmaking style and visual impact, photography, cinematography, shot selection, and direction of actor movement and expression. This is usually awarded to the directing team, which usually consists of the director, the director of photography or the cinematographer, and the editor. 

Ben, which show had the best direction of 2024?

Ben 

It's going to 25 Ji, Akasaka de, AKA At 25:00 in Akasaka. Directed by Hori Takahiro and Kawasaki Rio, DP Hanamura Yasushi, and edited by Kitani Mizuki. 

We just awarded I Became the Main Role in a BL Drama. And then this show released and I was like, are we doing this again, but moody? And they said, we sure are! 

And we loved it. I cannot believe we got similar premises in the same year and both were standout productions of the year. I'm a sucker for actors playing actors. And I really loved the work that went into this particular show.

NiNi 

The way that the show plays with the camera, inside the show inside the show, the way the camera kind of zooms in to immerse you in the moment, and then pulls back out to show you how fake the moment is.  They really make an effort to blur that line between real and fake, which is a big theme in the show. So very well done.

Ben

My favorite section every year. BL is really silly sometimes and there's a wide range of quality. And I don't think it's always for a lack of effort on people's part. But damn is it really good to have some things that are good enough that you are willing to show it to some of your bougie friends to make them sit down and watch some fucking BL. Thank you to everyone.

NiNi 

Thank you to all of our Immortal Technique winners. You will be getting your plates in the mail if we ever get around to sending out these magical plates. [Ben laughs] But y'all did good and we love you.

00:29:05 - Top Tings

NiNi 

Let's move on to our top tings. All the best things that we saw this year.

Ben 

Historically we've awarded these on some genre lines, but primarily country lines. With the greater diversification of the genre and also the absence of certain countries for economic and political reasons, we have opted to not award based on countries anymore.

We are going to be awarding on genre-oriented categories only. With that being said, NiNi, take us in.

MC: Gentlemen, pray silence for the President of the Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things.

President: I thank you, gentlemen. The year has been a good one for the society. Our Members have put more things on top of other things than ever before. But I should warn you, this is no time for complacency now. There are still many things that are I cannot emphasize too strongly,  not on top of other things. I myself on my way here this evening saw a thing that was not on top of another thing in any way. Shame indeed. But we must not allow ourselves to become too despondent for we must never forget that if there was not one thing that was not on top of another thing, our society would be nothing more than a meaningless body of men gathered together for no good purpose. 

Monty Python, The Royal Society for Putting Things On Top Of Other Things

NiNi 

We're going to start with the Best GL. Well, there's no competition really in 2024.

Ben 

It is Tsukuritai Onna to Tabetai Onna, AKA She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat from NHK in Japan. 

NHK really delivered for us and I was so relieved when they actually came back to continue the She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat story. Because after the first 10 episodes, we were not finished.

The ongoing exploration of queerness and relationships between women in the modern era was just so excellent in this show. It had adult women of various ages interacting with each other across those age lines and trying to support each other in meaningful ways. And we got really great development on the core relationship.

There was a lot of new GL this year and I'm looking forward to some more projects and I hope we have a wider field to choose from next year. But this is unequivocally our winner of the year. Nobody can compete with the chosen family scene. It's over for everyone else. I'm sorry.

NiNi 

I love the way that they expanded the show, expanded the cast to bring in somebody new moving into the apartment building, to bring in Nomoto's internet friend that she turned into a real friend. Really expanding the world and getting more into the relationships between all of these characters, all of these amazing women. I love it so much. It's the best GL that we watched this year.

*xylophone sound*

Ben

Our next award goes to the Best Pulp for shows with a small budget that have a big impact. It's very hard sometimes when you're working on tiny budgets to say big things. And it's really impressive when that show clearly has a strong creative handle on what it wants to do and what it wants to accomplish. It's easy to award the studios that have a lot of money and a big actor pool and can produce a lot of stuff. Something's probably gonna be good if you try often enough. It's always really cool when a small team comes out of nowhere and delivers one of the best things you saw this year. 

With that in mind, NiNi, who is our best pulp of the year?

NiNi 

Surprising absolutely no one, our best pulp of the year is Knock Knock Boys! by Kongthup Production and WeTV from Thailand. 

Knock Knock Boys! was an amazing pulp that used its small budget incredibly well. Some great acting, some sharp writing, just incredible all around. Took what they had and ran with it. I still think about Almond and Latte not having sex at the beach. I think that's one of the best scenes that I've seen this year. A great little show.

Ben

This show absolutely fucks. Go watch it!

NiNi 

Nothing more needs to be said.

Ben 

[laughs] Girl, I am halfway through this bottle. I need to slow down.

NiNi 

I'm so leaving that in. 

*xylophone sound*

Our next award goes to the Best Romantic Comedy. Live, love, laugh. I'm leaving that in as well. 

Ben, What's the funniest and most warmed we felt all year?

Ben 

This year's winner is Doku koi: Doku mo sugireba koi to naru AKA Love is a Poison. 

The show was just that funny consistently for 12 weeks. It's hard to be funny for 12 weeks. This show earned every single laugh it got. And they use their laughs to tell some really dirty jokes.

NiNi 

I just keep thinking about the succulents. [both laughs] The succulents making all those sighing noises. The succulents were one of the best things about this show and if you want to know what that means you should go watch it. It's an incredible show, incredibly funny. I laughed out loud multiple times. It's a delightful romantic comedy.

*xylophone sound*

Ben

Our next award goes to the Best Romantic Drama.

NiNi, who is our awardee for this year?

NiNi

Once again from Japan, the best romantic drama is 25 Ji, Akasaka de, At 25:00 in Akasaka by TV Tokyo. I am stuck on this show in a way that I did not expect to be when I watched it. Just the emotions involved between Hayama and Shirasaki and how long they've been going on and how tangled up they are because they are working together playing lovers and can't really disentangle real from fake.

Ben 

I really think about the way Niihara delivers “Asami-san” across the entire show. And I really feel like this show kicked into overdrive. I think it's around the end of episode four when Shirasaki is struggling with delivering the big confession scene in the drama they're recording within the show. The way we arrive at the end point of that, it's really one of the most effective episodes of television we got in BL this year.

NiNi 

I'm not gonna stop thinking about it ever, I think. Congratulations to 25 Ji, Akasaka de. You get a plate.

NiNi 

Moving on to the Best Genre Romance. This is for romance blended with sci-fi, fantasy, horror, action, and or mystery elements.

Ben 

This year's winner is Love for Love’s Sake from Wavve Studios.

It's really hard to do sci-fi well and give the audience an interesting relationship to sit with. Without spoilers, I really like that the audience has had a wide field of complex reactions to the end of this particular story. I think that that is a really strong indicator of how well the show explored the various things it wanted to do. It's really, really hard in sci-fi to do relationships that are meaningful because in sci-fi, it's more about the human condition and exploring complex ideas. The characters are more stand-ins for societal ideas that the story wants to pick at. 

This was an incredible job with a newcomer, no less, delivering on a really compelling and complex relationship. Man, I'm still thinking about that shoes moment.

NiNi 

My god.

Ben 

Hold on, I'm in my feelings.

NiNi 

The VIIB awards when Ben gets in his feelings. No, it was really so good.

Ben 

He shouted that man's name and he said run and then his shoes let off sparks and I screamed in my house. The scream I scrumpt!

NiNi

This is really a great one. One of the things about genre romances, it's really important for the genre elements to matter, for them to be integrally integrated into the story and the themes. That's one of the things that we look for in a good genre romance. 

Ben 

When Tae Myungha got the ability to see who Cha Yeowoon dislikes the most and he's going around and surveying the field, that hurt my feelings.

NiNi

My lord that was a moment to end moments.

Ben 

This really was an excellent show. This was not an easy decision for us, but this is why this show pushed ahead.

NiNi 

Congratulations to Love for Love's Sake. You get a plate.

*xylophone sound*

All right, Ben.

Ben 

It's time, baby! Show Of The Year!

NiNi

We are ready to award the best fucking thing we watched this year in QL.

Ben 

If you ain't watched fuck-all this year because you're too busy, you got too much else going on. If you only have time for one BL, please go watch our awardee, Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo from Studio Him Energetic Company.

It wasn't even close. I'm sorry to everybody else this year. [both laugh]

NiNi

It was not. It was not even close.

Ben

Look, last year I almost fucking murdered NiNi over La Pluie. [NiNi laughs] 

NiNi

I do remember. 

Ben

We met in person and I almost fucking killed her over the show.

NiNi

But this year it wasn't even a discussion, really. Obviously we enjoyed some other things, but one show really stood out and this was it. Hwang Da Seul is back. And she's killing the fucking game.

Ben 

We already spoke extensively about this show in an earlier episode, but we barely scratched the surface of everything we could have talked about in that show. That was a complete viewing experience. Not a moment of our time was wasted on extra bullshit. This was a stellar show and it is hands down head and shoulders above the other things we watched this year.

NiNi 

I just keep thinking about Dohoe asking Juyoung if he dressed up for him while he starts undressing him. Amazing show, incredible show. We can talk about it forever. 

Congratulations, Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo. You will get a plate. That's gonna wrap up our standard class awards.

00:41:43 - Special Class Awards

NiNi

Now we move into where Ben really gets to enjoy himself. Ben would not do the VIIB Awards if we did not do special class.

Ben 

Here's the background for the new people. When NiNi first approached me about doing a podcast together, she's like, let's start with an award show. Like it's the end of the year. Let's award the shows we really liked this year. And it was all like super queer cinema type stuff. And NiNi's like, okay, but I want to give BL shows awards. 

So we compromised and we put all of the queer shit whose primary goal was not to tell romantic stories overall into their own special class so we could highlight them. We thought this was a good compromise because BL is a romance genre, and the shows that I typically like to award here are not romances. But these are the shows that I support BL for. The market that enjoys BL has enough crossover with some of these types of queer dramas that it enables them to get made. So, it's time to hand out our special class awards so I can once again talk about all of my favorite things.

00:43:11 - Special Class: Honourable Mentions

Ben

Let's begin with our honorable mentions. These go to shows that we think contributed to the genre for any number of various ways.

And I want to say to all of you out there nervously waiting. Remember one thing. No matter what happens tonight, you're all winners. Because as you know, it is an honor just to be *wails* NOMINATED! 

I’m fine, fine, fine. 

Nathan Lane, 1995 Tony Awards

NiNi 

I wanted to highlight in the honorable mentions 7 Days Before Valentine. We talked about this one a little bit in one of our grab bags. This was a highly experimental piece that I really enjoyed and has surprisingly stuck with me. I still keep thinking about it. It's not BL exactly. It's kind of BL-ish. It's not, it's queer, it's not queer. It's very genre, it's also not genre. It's a little bit of everything when I described it in the grab bag, I described it as something that made me feel like I was sitting in a theater watching actors do an experimental play.

Ben 

It is from the same screenwriter/playwright/director who also gave us 180 Degree Longitude Passes Through Us. We wanted to highlight that Punnasak Sukee is still working.

NiNi 

It's very different kind of work but, I think, really worth watching. Our other honorable mentions come from Japan.

Ben 

It's time for the Anime Awards. Brother in the booth, play the sound!

*bright sparkle sound*

Ben 

There were about 10-odd anime projects that were BL or BL-adjacent that came out last year, only some of which were reasonably accessible to Westerners.

I want to highlight Tadaima, Okaeri and Twilight Out of Focus. Tadaima, Okaeri  is the best Omegaverse project that came out in this year. Wild time to be in BL. But Tadaima, Okaeri uses the convention of that genre to tell a story about a married gay couple with kids who are still growing their family, and it's really heartfelt. So many stories we watch are about guys getting together and the uphill challenges they fight to do that and whether or not we believe in them. This story was one hundred percent about that belief we had in them. These guys are together. They've already gone through their BL drama. We're watching them build a home. We're watching them raise their son and then their daughter.

This was a really unexpected and really incredible viewing experience. Omegaverse is not for everyone, but truly this was one of the standout narratives that I got to experience this year. I still think about this family at least once a week.

On the other end of the spectrum, Twilight Out of Focus was about a film club at a high school that allows us to explore three different relationships where in two of them, someone is already a known gay. This was a really special show that was unpacking a lot of BL presumptions. Studio Deen came back this year with Twilight Out of Focus. And it's continuing to ask the question in a context where a lot of people's first experiences with queer storytelling and queer identity is coming through BL, what responsibility does BL have to the boys and girls and other kids who are discovering themselves and BL is informing how they're going to interact with their potential partners? This show does this in a really elegant way without dunking on BL in the process. Also, the animation is gorgeous, truly.

Both of these are available on Crunchyroll. Please give them a chance.

00:47:36 - Special Class: Mark Pakin 6th Man Awards

NiNi 

We are moving on in our special class to the Sixth Man Award, or what we like to call the Mark Pakin Awards, because that's who we originally awarded this award to.

Interviewer: What was your preparation as sixth men? 

Jamal Crawford: You have to warm up different. Got my body…I knew I'd be cooling down, so I'm over…I didn't go to the bike, but I'll go to the hallway 'cause. I was stretching when I was on the bench. I was stretch off and I was mentally, more than anything, I would mentally put myself in the game before I got in the game. Oh, they're playing like this. They playing that pick and roll. He's sitting back right there. Okay, he's going for hands up. Oh, he's going for the left hands, okay. So I'm putting myself in, so I'm playing the game before I actually play the game. I'm like, you got more more. How much you see on my other plan? You like this, okay. You got to stick to it right here because I'm trying to send you left back to your right mother. This guy. That one guy is blitzing because he can get up the other guy. So I'm just watching different things, dude, and so I'm putting myself in the game, but I'm making my own adjustments. Before the play even happened.

Jamal Crawford, 3-time NBA 6th Man of the Year

NiNi

This award acknowledges the most valuable and versatile supporting actors of the year for on-screen and off-screen contributions. Our sixth man is somebody who can come on to a project, and just fire away, go right in. Basically, it's a gunslinger. It's coming off the bench and doing everything that needs to get done.

We've got two sixth man awards to hand out this year and I'm going to let Ben take the first one.

Ben

My award is going to Dome Jaruwat Cheawaram for his acting work in Cooking Crush as Samsee and for his composer work on Jack and Joker. 

Dome has been around BL for a very long time. I still listen to the song he sang for Until We Meet Again. This man has been in the streets with us for a long time. And I think he did a really fantastic job with the Samsee character. This man is always working. He is in the background somewhere doing something to entertain people. And we really wanted to acknowledge that this year.

So congratulations, sir. Thank you for all the work you do. And I really hope that people continue to appreciate your presence.

NiNi 

He is a great actor. He's a great musician, and he is one of our Sixth Men of the Year.

Our second Sixth Man Award this year is going to go to Title Kirati Puangmalee from We Are, Wandee Goodday, and Kidnap. He's been around and he continues to be around. And this year he gave us three very different performances.

Ben 

He's been with us as early as Love By Chance and he started with GMMTV for us on Be My Favorite, playing a heel there. Once Gunsmile left GMMTV, he stepped into that role to be the dude we hate. Good job, sir. You're doing a great job.

NiNi

This year he also played people that we liked, so great. He was one of the best parts of Kidnap because his character was entirely unhinged and nobody ever called him on it. Delightful. Every time he shows up, I know I'm going to have a good time. He is a good, solid actor, he can show up and do whatever you need him to do. 

So congratulations to Title Kirati Puangmalee for being one of 2024's sixth men.

00:51:13 - Special Class: Standout Queer Narratives

NiNi

We are on to our final awards, our Standout Queer Narratives of the Year.

Talented, brilliant, incredible, amazing, showstopping, spectacular. Never the same. Totally unique. Completely not ever been done before. Unafraid to reference or not reference. Put It in a blender. Shit on it. Vomit on it. Eat it. Give birth to it. 

Lady Gaga

NiNi

These awards acknowledge queer drama works that are not primarily romances.

Ben 

We're going to be talking about five different shows this year. Ossan no pantsu ga nandatte iijanaika!, aka Don't Care for an Old Man's Underwear from Japan, a family drama. We're going to be talking about Marahuyo Project from the Philippines, a community drama. We're going to be discussing Love in the Big City, a very complicated adult coming of age drama,Kimi no tsugu kaori wa, aka Fragrance You Inherit from Japan, a very interesting family drama. And finally, Interview with the Vampire Season 2, a Southern Gothic drama from the United States of all places.

NiNi 

We almost never talk about Western shows in standout queer narratives.

Ben 

That's how good that show is. That's how good it is.

NiNi 

Let's start there then.

Ben

Interview with the Vampire Season 2 continues this narrative. Louie and Claudia are in Europe and we're dealing with the fallout of their attempt to kill Lestat at the end of Season 1. What's so special about Season 2 is honestly, Jacob Anderson. I also want to give some special shout out to Delainey Hayles, who has to take over the role of Claudia in this season. And she does an incredible job. Assad Zaman and Eric Bogosian really step up in this season and play some really stellar stuff, and Emily would kill me if I didn't mention Ben Daniels’ work as Santiago. 

This is fundamentally a gay drama about unwell divorced people. And it remains one of the most compelling watches that I get to look forward to.

NiNi 

I have not watched this one yet. I'm working on cutting down my list this year by actually watching things. So this is on the list, definitely of things that I'm going to watch. It's been making too much noise for me to not watch it.

Ben 

I will say sincerely, as someone who really swoons for really strong actor chemistry and performances, if you had watched Interview, you would not have awarded Best Pair to Doku Koi.

NiNi 

It's standout queer narrative, they don't go into the BL parts.

Ben 

You all see why this award show works the way it does! [both laugh]

But sincerely, that's how good the two of them are. they're not really in a proper romance because they're so fucked up. [NiNi laughs] But goddamn, Jacob and Sam are the two men I look the most forward to playing queer characters. And this show has a complex lens on queerness over the course of centuries, which adds an incredible layer to the performance.

It's hard to do sequels to romantic stories. I loved the second season of Interview in many ways more than I loved the first season, but I would not have been able to enjoy the second season without the first season. That is truly what makes a second season really good, when it builds on what the first season did and elevates that to a whole new level; a really special experience this year. It is rare that I go out of my way to recommend Western Queer TV on this podcast. But in this particular case, I highly recommend Interview with the Vampire.

NiNi 

It's on my list and steadily climbing.

The next show on our standout queer narratives list is a show that we actually haven't talked about yet but will be talking about coming up soon. Fragrance You Inherit, Kimi no tsugu kaori wa from Japan, a family drama. 

Without getting too deep into it, which we are going to do on its own episode, Ben, just give the people a little taste of what Fragrance You Inherit is about.

Ben 

Fragrance You Inherit is about a single mom and her son. And it's about her meeting the son's new girlfriend, who happens to be the daughter of her college crush. The son's girlfriend is the spitting image of her mom, and this is fundamentally a show about really kind people trying to do right by each other as they navigate some unresolved feelings across two different generations. 

This is a show that could have gone a really ugly route, but I really liked that this was fundamentally a show about people trying to take care of each other. And it was a lot of fun watching a show where the primary stress comes from everyone being really polite about some very difficult things. We get to see an older lesbian who knows she's a lesbian but hasn't told her son, navigate the unresolved feelings she had for her closest female friend in college while their children pursue a really meaningful romance between them in a way that I think honors the desires and perspective of all of the characters involved. It's a really special experience and was a real surprise for us at the end of the year.

NiNi 

This is from Ishibashi Yuhuo who also did Our Dining Table, Tokyo in April Is…, I think, and a few other standout Japanese dramas that we've watched in the last few years. 

Ben 

There were not enough shots of shoes. I would not have known it was her.

NiNi 

[laughs] She does love shoes. 

This comes from a manga by Ogawa Maruni and it really surprised me. It's a GL but not a GL. It's about having built, after disappointment, having built really good, meaningful, happy lives, and then having that rocked a little bit by unresolved things from your past and where that takes you. It's also about parents and children. It's also about being honest with people in your life and how not being honest with them can lead to a lot of stress and anxiety. It is a great show. We will be talking about in a lot more detail coming up in a subsequent episode, but we wanted to award it a Standout Queer Narrative Award.

Ben 

We already discussed Love in the Big City in an earlier episode, so we will not go on at length about it here. But we are once again stating for the official record of the VIIB Awards, that this is honestly the show not to miss this year. There is so much that went into getting this show even made.

The entire experience we get with Go Young across his 20s and four difficult periods of his life is honestly one of the most meaningful queer experiences I got to have in communion with other people in the last couple of years. Everything about reading Love in the Big City and watching Love in the Big City is one of the most memorable experiences I've had with queer media in a long time. And I cannot overstate how good this show is and how significant the existence of the show is. 

This show for many ways fills the same sort of place as Moonlight in my queer cinema taste in viewing. I can't really chat with a queer cinephile who hasn't watched Moonlight, and Love in the Big City  is very quickly becoming one of those things. If you haven't watched Love in the Big City do not talk to me. 

Watch this one, for fuck's sake! It's that good. You owe it to yourself to get this into your psyche.

NiNi 

We talked about this show for maybe close to an hour and a half of pre-edit time and we barely scratched the surface. Since our episode went out, we have been continuing to talk about this show and finding new things to delve into. We are not going to talk about it forever, but we could. Watch it, it's worth everything, and it is one of our standout queer narratives of the year.

Our next standout queer narrative is Marahuyo Project from the Philippines. Thank god JP Habac came back this year. I was starting to lose hope.

Ben 

I'm so glad that ANIMA Studios is still in it. And I'm so glad that they came back with a project like this. It felt really special to me in a year where I found myself really struggling to connect with youth queer storytelling, this show said it was LGBTQIA +, and it meant that with its whole fucking heart. And it put its whole ass on the line to tell the stories that it wanted to tell. This was a great viewing experience. And if you care about queer art, this show is available for free on YouTube. Please go give them some support.

NiNi 

I just can't stop thinking about the back of Archie's neck.

Ben 

Mmhmm. And about Adrian Lindayag and everything that he does for queer activism in the Philippines, and I'm so glad that he got to play King.

NiNi 

Amazing show, amazing music, amazing writing, amazing direction. Oh my god, King's fourth wall breaks. Amazing. It was just such a good show with a lot of heart, a lot of real deep complex feelings to delve into.

Ben 

The funniest thing about dealing with the VIIB Awards is, like, each one of these shows would have decimated other categories it was in. Like, Marahuyo Project would have decimated Best Music. It would have been no contest. 

NiNi 

It really would have, it really would have won best music.

Ben 

I almost fought for it. I was like, I don't care. I'm giving it to them anyway. They're like dragging me off stage so I–

NiNi 

[laughs] Shhh, come on, come on, come on. No, shhh, it's time to go to bed, come on.

Ben 

We would have given Love in the Big City show of the year. Interview, if everybody else had watched it, would have definitely won genre romance, flat out. Like, that's how good all of these shows are.

NiNi 

But ultimately they are not romances.

Ben

But that's the point. [snickers]

Our last show is Don't Care For an Old Man's Underwear. We talked about this show at length earlier. This was so spectacular. This was a show where our primary character is an ignorant, misogynist, middle-aged man, and we were rooting for this man very early on in this show. And we loved him by the end of it. This show is so aspirational in a way that even some of our BLs can't really stand up to. Like this show believes that misogynistic old men can do better and have meaningful, loving, supportive, and positive relationships with their families if they just listen to them a little bit more. Good job, everybody. Way to really shoot for the best outcome you could possibly get. 

This show really modeled what relationship rebuilding and healing could look like in a way that I think is really helpful. And I really liked that a very well-known and popular Japanese comedian was in the lead role of this. Dramas like this are often really important because you have people with clout they've earned well outside of the queer narrative space doing really meaningful work in it. And these are the kinds of projects that often reach a lot more people than the BL that we talk about. Like, I feel like more people are gonna have had a gay storytelling experience because of Interview with the Vampire, more than some of these BLs we've talked about on here by a long shot. And I think for the Japanese viewing audience, I think many of them would have probably engaged with Ossan no pantsu far more likely than they would have engaged with any of the BL we highlighted on this list earlier. 

Really important to highlight these kinds of projects because these are the projects that are useful for you to show your friends and family. If you're interested in sharing BL with them, these are very good starting points to get into the rest of the genre because they are not BL, but they do open people's minds up to viewing queer media from places they might not have normally expected to get that.

NiNi 

Well said and I just love Makoto's turns of phrase. I think about them a lot, saying that the idol that his wife likes is the Okita family benefactor.

Ben 

That is exactly where my head went, too. “So Random is the Okita family's benefactor. I understand.” [laughs]

NiNi 

It's such clever writing, the way that he recasts ideas into a way that he can engage with them in an attempt to understand the things that he doesn't understand. I really enjoy that the writing puts him into the role of doing that work.

All of the shows on these lists, of course, because it's our VIIB Awards, these are really the things that we loved watching. But I think I have a special place in my heart for Oppan.

01:06:00 - Outro

Ben

We talk about a lot of shows in this podcast. We highlight a lot of things. These are the things that will be talked about well beyond this year, or at least we hope they will. Please go watch them and be part of that conversation.

NiNi 

I think the other thing that the VIIB Awards forces us to do is even in a year that we're struggling a little bit, it reminds us that, no, actually there was a lot of good stuff, too.

So anyway, there we are. Those are our VIIB Awards. We're gonna put up our final awards listing as part of the transcript for this show. So look out for that when it comes out on Tumblr. But that's gonna be it from us. The 2024 VIIB Awards are over.

Ben

I'm currently showing Emily Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo and Love in the Big City at the same time.

NiNi 

My gosh, so you're giving her the exact same experience we had. Good job.

Ben 

I sure am! [laughs] Can you believe that we got both of these shows at the same time? Like, how did they think we were supposed to process both of these shows simultaneously?

NiNi 

They weren't thinking about us, bestie. They were just like, no, we're just going to put the things out. It's time.

Ben 

Incredible. I just love the idea that a bunch of new Korean viewers who might've become interested in QL following up on Love in the Big City had Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo right there being advertised at them. Like, that is so stellar.

NiNi

That was a very good four weeks.

That is going to wrap us up on the 2024 VIIB Awards. Oh my god guys, we're done for another year.

This year, let's see what's gonna happen. Is Ben gonna not watch in the summer so he doesn't get cranky? Stay tuned to find out.

Ben 

[laughs] No promises, no demands. Love is a battlefield.

NiNi 

Woo. We have drunk too much brown liquor, it is time to go. We out. 

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben 

Peace!

[the-conversation-pod]

The Diamond League: Fan-Favorite BL Classics

AND WE'RE BACK

Join us for our 2024 holiday special. We asked a few friends to submit to us their favorite BLs we haven't covered on the show. We had a lot of fun with this, and we hope you'll enjoy hearing some familiar and new voices from our friends.

Come for the fellowship and recommendations. Stay for Ben and NiNi shading each other.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00 - Welcome 00:55 - Celebrating the BL Canon: A Retrospective 02:08 - Blueming (2022) | KR | dir. Hwang Da Seul (Megan) 07:35 - Dark Blue Kiss (2019) | TH | dir. Aof Noppharnach Chaiwimol (Shan) 13:59 - He's Coming To Me (2019) | TH | dir. Aof Noppharnach Chaiwimol (Captain Hands) 17:00 - His (2020) | JP | dir. Imaizumi Rikiya (Twig) 21:12 - Light On Me (2021) | KR | dir. Lee Yoo Yeon (Kyra) 25:40 - Make It Right (2017) | TH | dirs. New Siwaj Sawatmaneekul and Cheewin Thanamin Wongskulphat (Turtles) 33:29 -The Miracle of Teddy Bear (2022) | TH | dir. Paajaew Yuthana Lorphanpaibul (Pluem) 39:52 - Theory of Love (2019) | TH | dir. X Nuttapong Mongkolsawas (Bookworm) 46:15 - The Untamed (2019) | CH | dirs. Steve Cheng and Chang Ka Lam (Shan) 51:42 - We Best Love (2021) | TW | dir. Ray Jiang (Twig) 57:59 - Ben and Nini's Drive-by Faves

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

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00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the vibes queen

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:55 - Celebrating the BL Canon: A Retrospective

Ben 

And we're back. As part of our award season, we decided to call on some of our friends and highlight some shows that we have not talked about extensively on The Conversation that are really important to the BL/QL canon. So we got 10 shows from eight of our friends! They all submitted clips advocating for why you should watch these shows, some of which NiNi has not watched and should listen to our friends on.

NiNi 

So the initial thought behind this episode, the Diamond League, is that 2024 would have marked 10 years since Love Sick. Since, let's call it, the modern era of BL. So we wanted to highlight 10 faves that maybe we haven't given their shine on the show. And we asked our friends to pick them. So you're going to hear from some friends of the pod, some you've already met and some new people that you haven't met before. And then we are going to talk a little bit about what they have to say about these shows.

02:08 - Blueming (2022) | KR | dir. Hwang Da Seul (Megan)

Ben 

Okay, brother in the booth, play the first clip.

Megan

Hi! This is Megan, or @solitaryandwandering on Tumblr.

My selection for the Diamond League is Blueming. 

Cha Siwon is a college freshman in film school who derives his self-worth from his physical appearance and popularity. He devotes an inordinate amount of time to working out, adhering to a strict diet of protein shakes and not much else, and forcing his personality into pleasant contours. But another film student then arrives on the scene: Hyeong Daun, with seemingly effortless good looks, great grades, and all the money Cha Siwon doesn’t have. As the two continue to interact, Cha Siwon must peel back layers and layers of self-loathing to first discover then accept who he really is.

It’s a Hwang Da Seul joint, her first and only time directing an adaptation of a BL webtoon (“Who Can Define Popularity” by Tak Bon), though she had worked with this screenwriter (Park Young) before with To My Star. Her third foray into BL after Where Your Eyes Linger and season 1 of To My Star, Blueming sees her exploring themes she’s visited in all her projects to some degree, such as family, abuse, class dichotomies and interaction, social harm, and self-image—just to name a few. I feel like this show is where she really begins to refine her perspective and style.

If you love complex characters or narratives which hinge on character evolution, you should check this out. I feel like this show is not talked about nearly as much as her other projects.

It’s available on iQIYI, with eleven episodes lasting around 12 minutes each. Don’t let its short runtime scare you away. 

I’m sad we never got season 2.

NiNi 

Me too, Megan. Me too.I really wanted it very badly. 

So Ben, what are your thoughts on Blueming?

Ben 

I remember enjoying the production of it when I watched it. I remember liking the same things that Hwang Da Seul is always putting us through, where really imperfect guys are trying to sort their shit out and some gross things happen that aren't necessarily totally forgivable, but she wants us to. The difficulty is, when it premiered, it was a pain in the ass to watch. And unfortunately, that has really clouded my memory of it. 

So I personally don't feel as strongly about this, but I kind of want to watch it again because Megan is a very astute viewer of media, and I often really enjoy her takes. Part of how we ended up finding her was she was writing about disability narratives in QL and all of us showed up to watch her live blog La Pluie about two or three months after it finished. She was not expecting this whole group of nerdy essay writers to show up on every one of her posts to react to them. She's been a lot of fun to have around. 

I feel like I need to revisit Blueming, because I don't feel harshly about the project itself. I just feel annoyed when I think about trying to rewatch it.

NiNi 

I think that you should give it another shot. I love everything by Hwang Da Seul, honestly. And what I really loved about Blueming, more than the writing, which was pretty good, I really got a sense of Hwang Da Seul as a director on Blueming. The way that she directs the camera, the way that she has her actors move through space. It's one of the prettiest things that she's ever made. And Daun and Siwon are really great characters whom I love, especially Siwon. He's just so messed up and he really needs the kindness that Daun shows him. And when Daun shows him that kindness, he just goes okay, I need to stop being so weird about life. I have had this messed up childhood where I have been made to think that what people think of me is the only important thing. And here's this person just telling me to be myself, because he wants to know me and he likes me just as I am, and I am discovering myself through this. 

It's a great little show. I truly enjoy it. It is beautiful to watch. There are a couple of scenes in particular, the scene where they go on their beach trip, they kiss on the beach, and then they go back to a nearby hotel and they have their first time silhouetted in front of a blue light. It is the prettiest thing that Hwang Da Seul has ever done. So I would suggest that you give it another try if you can get past the annoyance, because I know there are things that I have not watched because I am annoyed by them so I will allow for that.

Ben 

I’m ‘bout to say! I was gonna let you have it for a little bit, but I'm like, mm-mm. No, ma'am.

NiNi

No, no, I know, I know. That's what I'm saying. If you can get past your annoyance, I would encourage you.

Ben 

She's like, you should watch it. It's not that long. I'm like, girl, we've been saying that about every Japanese project for three years.

NiNi 

I've been catching up! I've been catching up on them.

07:35 - Dark Blue Kiss (2019) | TH | dir. Aof Noppharnach Chaiwimol (Shan)

NiNi

Let's move into our next entry for the Diamond League and this one comes from our Shan.

Shan:

Hey podcast peeps, it's Shan. I heard that Ben and NiNi are making a list of shows they're calling the Diamond League and I am here to bust through the door like the Kool-Aid man and scream about Dark Blue Kiss. Dark Blue Kiss is from the classic GMMTV days when they were first kind of kicking off this BL wave, and it hails from the days when they were actually interested in good stories instead of just making branded pair content. I think it stands out to me for a few reasons. One, it stars TayNew, and you all know that I'm a TayNew girlie. I love them and they're excellent in this, as always. Two, it's a story about a long term relationship, which we hardly ever get. So the story begins when Pete and Kao are three years in and experiencing some serious relationship challenges. Related to that—my third point—his show is not in the bubble. It is very much dealing with the realities of homophobia, both external and internalized, and how that affects their relationship over the long term as they kind of tussle with whether or not they should be out to their loved ones. And fourth, this show does one of the things I love the most in the world that I've talked about quite a lot, which is a class disparity narrative. The story is very much informed by the class disparity between Pete and Kao. It takes it seriously and it plays it all the way through the threads of what happens and you know, that that is super rare in Thai BL. And I'm pretty sure this is the only GMMTV BL who has actually done it well. I think it's worth highlighting, I think it should be in the canon of great shows that we discuss when we talk about BL, and I hope you all are gonna give some more thoughts about why you like it. 

Ben

I love that you can hear Shan smiling when she talks about TayNew. That is absolutely ridiculous.

NiNi 

[laughs] It's true.

Ben

Dark Blue Kiss is one of Aof’s shows and it is one of my quiet favorites of his. And it's because he took something that could have been kind of forgettable with the Pete and Kao dynamic from the Kiss series. It's the very rare to get BL that's about an established couple. And these guys are having very serious, very normal problems. Pete's family is wealthier and his dad is more accepting of them. Kao is poor. He doesn't know how his single mom is going to respond to what he needs to tell her. And he's scared of those consequences and what upsetting her may look like. So he's kept them in the closet this whole time and it really prevents them from moving forward as a couple. 

On top of that, he's hustling to try and make ends meet to support his mom. This involves tutoring. One of the kids he ends up tutoring is played by AJ.

NiNi 

JJ. 

Ben

No, it's AJ. It's AJ. I looked this up before we got here.

NiNI

I don't know why I thought it was JJ, but yes, continue bestie.

Ben 

It's AJ because AJ is the one who kisses boys.

NiNi 

True, although—dot, dot, dot…

Ben 

No. There will be no other in here. AJ is the twin who kisses boys.

NiNi 

We love AJ and JJ on this podcast, just so you know.

Ben

Not necessarily. We do, we love both of them, but also, JJ does not kiss boys.

NiNi 

Continue.

Ben 

No, see now I'm going on side rant. JJ does not kiss boys. I'm pulling up in his history right now. Let's go look at the list. He's Coming to Me, no boy kissing. 2gether, no boy kissing. My Gear and Your Gown, he clearly should have kissed the boy in that one, did not kiss the boy. Enchanté, did not kiss a boy. Star and Sky, no boy kissing. Midnight Museum, no boys got kissed in that, unfortunately. Dangerous Romance, he should have kissed the boy in that, didn't. [NiNi laughs]

He was in We Are. Did he kiss a boy, NiNi? 

NiNi

He did not.

Ben

Exactly. This is exactly why I got pissed. AJ was in 23.5 near Euro and clearly should have kissed him. And we know AJ will kiss him.

NiNi

You mean Euro could have bagged both the twins? 

Ben 

In the same year, like this is my thing–

NiNi

One in Dangerous Romance and one in 23.5? My god. Okay, here's how Euro can still win.

Ben

All right, we're on a long tangent here. We love the twins. AJ plays Non in Dark Blue Kiss and Non is clearly into Kao. And Kao does not navigate this kid's crush very well. He doesn't want to put this kid in his place because this kid is paying a lot of money. He ends up lying to Pete and this causes some real problems for them, and really almost costs them their relationship in a way that felt really believable without it feeling super melodramatic. 

This is a really great drama about an established couple trying to take an important step forward in the face of real queer consequences. And it's well done. And there's a lot of great supporting work in this one. I want to back up Shan on this and say that you all should really check this out so that you can also yell fuck you to Non with the rest of us, because that boy sucks and he deserves everything he got.

NiNi 

I'm just gonna add one of my favorite things about Dark Blue Kiss aside from all the things that Shan and Ben have already said—

Ben 

—Girl, if you mention Podd, I'm gonna fight—

NiNi 

—I'm sorry, you know I love him. You know I love him. Podd, the Podd/Gawin ship and Podd and Gawin as Sun and Mork the side couple. I truly had a great time with them. I really did. They're not a good couple, but they're a good couple in my heart. I had a great time with them.

Ben 

They are not a good couple. 

NiNi

They’re not a good couple! But they’re a good couple in my heart. [laughs]

Ben

NiNi has created a version of them that makes them a good couple. To be clear, they are not a good couple. But if you write the correct fic—

NiNi 

[laughs] Listen, I love them, let's move on. 

Dark Blue Kiss is available on GMMTV's YouTube. Go look for it and watch it if you haven't watched it already.

13:59 - He's Coming To Me (2019) | TH | dir. Aof Noppharnach Chaiwimol (Captain Hands)

The next clip is from Captain Hands. (@wen-kexing-apologist)

Captain Hands:

He’s Coming to Me, which is written and directed by Aof Noppharnach, is a show about a ghost named Med who does not know the truth of his own death and a boy named Thun who can see ghosts and makes it his mission to help Med discover how he died. And, because this is BL, they fall in love along the way.

If you watched Bad Buddy and loved how Aof used warring families as a stand-in for homophobia, then you should definitely watch this show to see how Aof uses Thun’s ability to see ghosts as a metaphor around the visibility and invisibility of queerness. 

I’ve spoken about this show before and how its distribution and viewership was severely impacted by protests against Ohm and Singto being paired together in this series, which is a damn shame because this show is incredible. Ohm and Singto’s performances are stunning, their chemistry phenomenal, and the story itself is beautiful. 

Ohm’s portrayal of Thun as he slowly realizes his sexuality is gut-wrenching and real, from Thun’s mounting distress as he rambles about the assumptions people make about him, to how he acts when he comes out to his friends and family, to the breakdown he has in episode five’s rooftop confession scene. 

This show deals so much with loving and losing queer people and how we seek justice for the wrongs that have been done to them. It is only eight episodes, available for free on YouTube, and is so so queer, and I think everyone should watch it. 

NiNi

This is an incredible show. He's Coming to Me is absolutely one of my absolute favorite—not just BLs—dramas of all time. It stars young Ohm Pawat and Singto Prachaya. And it's just, it's incredible. It's amazing. I love it so much. If I had to put one caveat behind He's Coming to Me, it would be that I think that Aof dodged the ending, but other than that it's great. 

There's some great, really great acting from Ohm and Singto in this. One of my favorite scenes, as Captain Hands would have mentioned, Thun's rooftop confession to Med. It still gives me chills to think about it. You should go watch the show. 

Ben 

If there's one thing Ohm Pawat is good at, it's confessing to boys on roofs. [both laughs]

NiNi 

If it was the only thing he was good at, it would still be worth it, but he's good at so many other things at the same time.

Ben

Viewers are totally forgiven for having missed He's Coming to Me. There was a ton of drama around when this show released that we will not rehash here. The show was not really available in Western circles for a very long time. So I think anybody who missed it in 2019 is totally forgiven. But now that it is available on YouTube with subs, I think it's worth it.

There's a pretty decent mystery storyline that plays out across it, and I really love the queer writing in this. Aof was still expressing a lot of ideas at the time that he hadn't gotten out. And I think it'll feel fresh if you haven't seen it.

17:00 - His (2020) | JP | dir.  Imaizumi Rikiya (Twig)

NiNi 

All right, so let's move on to the next clip.

Twig:

Hi there, this is @twig-tea, here to advocate for the underrated Japanese film His from 2020. There is actually a prequel five episode series by the same name from 2019, which covers our two main characters Shun and Nagisa meeting for the first time in a small seaside town during their high school summer break. The series is a beautiful, quiet, yearning glimpse at first love and the awkwardness that navigating queerness piles on to an already awkward life experience. Worth checking out in its own right. 

But I'm here to talk about the sequel film, which takes place years into Shun and Nagisa's futures where they meet again in another small town, this time in the mountains. This film is an incredibly moving second chance romance story that does a great job of balancing the romance with reality. Just some of the huge themes covered deftly in this film are internal and external homophobia, adoption and child custody laws, how homophobia ruins the lives of not just queer people but everyone in their radius, the aging demographics of rural Japan and what that means for these communities, finding your place, and forgiveness. The relationship between Shun and Nagisa is the beating heart center of this film, but the relationships that both of them establish, build, and navigate with Shun's friends and neighbours, with Nagisa's ex wife and child, and with the town itself are also richly portrayed and beautiful to watch. Neither of these are readily available where I am, but if you reach out to me or anyone from the pod we can get you sorted. If you like quiet, beautiful media about the loss of innocence, giving and getting second chances, finding your place, and building community, take the extra effort to try this one out.  

Ben 

I am with Twig. The series is good. I like it a lot. I think it adds a great layer to the separation at the very beginning of the film because you are as shocked as Shun that Nagisa is breaking up with him. However, you don't need to watch it to enjoy the film, and the film is a very excellent piece. I think it is probably my favorite BL-adjacent film that exists. 

This one adds a great layer to the second chance component of the romance because there's no noble idiocy in this one. Nagisa just got scared and left. And now he's suddenly back with a fucking kid and a divorce. It's a really difficult and messy story, but it's executed with this incredible gentleness. And the community that Shun has decided to live in is really fascinating to follow along the way. It is a really excellent viewing experience. And it's rare that I think queer film covers this territory this well. I highly recommend finding it and watching it.

NiNi 

This film does some of my favorite things. Y'all know I love a second chance romance where they fucked up the first chance rather than didn't take the first chance. So there's that. There's all the drama that comes along with Nagisa having been married, divorced and bringing his daughter into the mix. Both in terms of his and Shun's relationship, also in terms of his relationship with his ex-wife, his relationship with Sora, his daughter, Shun's relationship with Sora and the town's relationship with all of them. 

It also has Nagisa coming back to basically kind of rescue Shun from becoming an absolute hermit essentially, because Shun, once Nagisa broke up with him, he kind of disappeared into himself a little bit and he disappeared into this small town that he's not really connecting with because he's sad, he's hiding, he feels guilty. I had some of the same feelings around 180 Degrees and Inthawut that I did around Shun at the beginning of His the movie. It's a great movie. I would urge everybody to watch it.

Ben

Let us know if you watch it. I wanna hear your thoughts.

21:12 - Light On Me (2021) | KR | dir.  Lee Yoo Yeon (Kyra)

Ben

Now, brother in the booth. Next clip.

NiNi 

Okay, I'm about to get slammed. [both snicker] Hold please.

Kyra:

Hello my name is Kyra, @kyr-kun-chan on Tumblr, and I want to talk about Light on Me. 

I love this show so much. It's a love triangle, but a very good and enjoyable one. It's about Woo Taekyung who doesn't have any friends and never cared about making friends until now. He tries to join the student council in the hope of making some friends there but that doesn't go as smoothly as he hoped. Taekyung is a little awkward and has a hard time socializing sometimes. 

The main student council members are Shin Daon, Noh Shinwoo and Namgoong Shiwoon. Shin Daon, the president of the student council, is at first glance a very kind person who loves to help others, but he has a problem of not being able to say no to anyone. Noh Shinwoo, the vice president, is also a bit of an awkward guy. He doesn't say much and everyone says he's a nice person but he seems to have a grudge with Taekyung. Finally, Namgoong Shiwoon is the guy who will make you laugh when you have a bad day. He's always there to back you up or offer you his precious snacks. There's a reason an award is named after him, the Namgoong Best Boy Award. So, these are our main boys and there is one more important character which is a girl named Lee Sohee, who has a big crush on Daon. 

This KBL really feels like a kdrama. I'm not gonna say who wins this love triangle because it's fun to figure it out while watching and they both have a good shot. Other than it being a BL, this show really is about the characters's growth. They all learn something and I really love that. 

NiNi:

Okay, Ben, hit me, I know. I'm just letting you know in advance, we just talked about this on the Year in Review, I have promised to watch this this year and I am actually putting it on my calendar for before the VIIB Awards. I promise.

Ben 

I just want to thank Kyra for that lovely summary of one of our favorite shows. [NiNi laughs] And I'm curious, NiNi, after hearing her put so much effort into delivering a concise pitch for the show, do you find yourself curious? Do you want to watch it, actually?

NiNi 

I always meant to watch it, I just had a little bit of a problem with the uncanny valley effect. There's a lot of makeup and Vaseline on the lens and I just needed to get past that. And I will before—

Ben 

You just watched We Are the series; I don't wanna hear shit from you. You made us spend 40 minutes talking about We Are the series. [NiNi laughs]

You spent 16 weeks with the GMMTV New Siwaj filter. Have several seats.

NiNi

[laughs] Shit, well I just got read. I will be watching it within the next week before we record the VIIB awards, I promise.

Ben 

Light on Me is probably my favorite execution of a love triangle in BL. Korea really loves second leads, and they have some interesting ideas about pining, yearning, and confessing in all of this. Woo Taekyung is one of the most interesting protagonists we've had in a long time because he's such an active participant in his own story. He is not just a beautiful BL boy who shows up and then just has hot guys throwing themselves at him. Our protagonist in a lot of romance stories is not often really that active of a driver of their own life. They have to respond to what the story is throwing at them. What I found really compelling about Woo Taekyung is that he holds his suitors accountable. He's very self-assured about who he is and what he wants to be without being stubborn to the point of being unwilling to learn and grow from what he experiences along the way. 

He's a really fascinating BL lead. And I think once you finally fucking watch it, you'll understand why this show is so important to so many of us, that even our best friend Kyra, who is often shy about this kind of stuff, was willing to put her voice on the line for it.

NiNi 

I have taken your many, many, many, many points and I promise you by the next time we talk, I will have watched Light on Me.

Ben

She says before she edits that out. [both laugh]

NiNi 

I'm leaving it in. I'm leaving it in for accountability. 

25:40 - Make It Right (2017) | TH | dirs. New Siwaj Sawatmaneekul and Cheewin Thanamin Wongskulphat (Turtles)

Ben 

Okay, brother in the booth, on to the next clip.

NiNI

Okay. So the next clip is from Turtles (@waitmyturtles) and let's hear what she has to say.

Turtles:

Make It Right! A classic, historic, and legendary show from the early annals of the Thai Boys Love genre for so many reasons. Make It Right followed, format-wise, in the footsteps of its immediate Thai BL predecessor, 2014’s Love Sick, allotting screentime to multiple couples and their unwinding romances. But unlike Love Sick—and other important Thai teenage multi-narrative series—Make It Right focused exclusively on same-sex couplings. This wasn’t a surprising move, given the creators of Make It Right—two budding screenwriters and directors who would go on to become stalwarts of the Thai Series Y genre, New Siwaj and Cheewin Thanamin. 

Make It Right wasn’t a perfect show, by any means. With New and Cheewin both at the helm, you have to expect some chaos, and there were a lot of moments in this series that left my head spinning. There were unexplained sex and food metaphors, unfulfilled romantic journeys among some side couples, and other loose threads. However, both seasons of Make It Right were anchored by the romantic development of its lead couples, TeeFuse and FrameBook, and the series went no holds barred on the complications these young men faced in their budding relationships. Fuse had to balance his growing bisexual attraction to Tee while managing a complicated, previously existing relationship with a cheating girlfriend. Book continually dodged Frame’s advances, while the experienced Frame made missteps in his eager courtship of Book. 

The second season of Make It Right, especially the ending, harkened back to some of Cheewin Thanamin’s best and most heartfelt work, particularly the ending of Bed Friend, as both series ended with optimistic proposals of forever among the beloved pairs. But most of all, what moved me about Make It Right is its unabashed devotion to the authenticity of experience of young teenage love and sex. New Siwaj and Cheewin Thanamin approached young gay male sex with a laser focus on how messy and complicated young love and sex can be. They made the experience of first gay love universal for all viewers. 

And most importantly, as my dear friend Ben, of The Conversation podcast, said to me in 2023, when I first watched Make It Right: the series, finally in that moment in history, did not punish young men for being gay, as so much queer media had done before Make It Right’s airing. Ben said, “New Siwaj and Cheewin Thanamin understand] that many early sexual experiences are with other boys. And Make It Right asks what life could be if they just didn't turn against each other for it.”

Make It Right treats its characters with the respect that developing teenagers deserve. The world wants to be so negative to immature youth. But Make It Right gives teenagers, young gay teenagers, the chance to grow without judgement, and to make that growth relatable to even the most experienced adult viewer. 

NiNi 

Thank you, Turtles. Ben, I know you are one of the world's foremost experts and lovers of Make It Right. 

Ben 

I am an apologist for Make It Right. Make It Right is not great, but I love it so much. P’Nine is still my hero all these years later. [NiNi laughs] Every time I pitch Make It Right to people, I talk about it as like, what if you gave a bunch of gay creators in their 20s enough money to go idealize what they wished had happened in some of their high school crushes and relationships? What would that look like? And Make It Right is the answer. 

It's a weird show. The humor is all over the place in it. And every single interaction these boys has starts off in such a weird and kind of fucked up space. None of the early encounters any of these couples have is what we would call ideal. All of them reek of dubious consent. But I really love that that's not the stopping line, there's a ton of exploration about what goes on after this. The main couple has this really great experience over dealing with having feelings for a boy who's trying to sort out his feelings for a girl who's cheating on him. The second pair has our beloved Ohm Pawat in it—

NiNi

In his first role.

Ben 

Baby's first role—has this really compelling dynamic about both of these guys being sexually experienced at like 15, but also having interesting histories that they bring to the table already. There's a really great third storyline with a very femme, gender non-conforming character and their best friend. There's a lot of really complex ideas in this show. The acting is nothing to write home about. Really only Ohm is the standout performer of this show.

NiNi 

I mean he shines. Shines, I tell you.

Ben 

But really, there is just so much interesting masculine storytelling as part of this. We have a lot of complex feelings about New Siwaj and Cheewin on this podcast. But they both had a lot of interesting things to say and explore about 10 years ago. It's one of the reasons why I stay engaged with their work, especially when I'm frustrated with them. At one point, I really felt like I understood and connected with these guys. And it's interesting for me to see where we are growing, sometimes together, sometimes apart.

NiNi 

One of the things that I like about Make It Right sort of as a early, let's say, proof of concept of the Thai BL space is the fact that they also tried to do something different than the blue shorts in terms of the aesthetic that they put together for the school. There was a lot of things that remind me of sort of early maybe 40s or 50s queer media where they were trying to do a little bit of cheesecake, a little bit of not with the short shorts and all the things. It was some fascinating ideas that Cheewin and New were working with in Make It Right, especially that idea of how do boys actually discover that they like each other? 

It's not always pretty to watch, but it is always compelling to watch. It is long, but it is worth watching the whole thing for, like, a very clear idea of where New Siwaj and Cheewin Thanaman were starting out from in terms of the ideas that they wanted to contribute to the queer canon. Great show, I highly recommend it.

I think Make It Right might be Ben's absolute favorite.

Ben 

Like, from a stylistic standpoint and I should show this to more people standpoint, no. But when people are like, what's your trash fave? As like, what's an imperfect show that's hard to show to other people who weren't there who won't get it, but like, you will defend for the rest of your life? Make It Right is that show.

NiNi

We all have those shows. I know what mine is.

Ben 

Oh, I need to know. 

NiNi

You know what it is. 

Ben

Is it Love by Chance?

NiNi

It is Love by Chance.

Ben

My god. Everyone's secret favorite show is a New Siwaj show that's not that good but that did like one or two things really well.

[NiNi laughs]

33:29 -The Miracle of Teddy Bear (2022) | TH | dir.  Paajaew Yuthana Lorphanpaibul (Pluem)

So, all right, let's move on to our next clown, another new friend of the pod. Let's hear from @happypotato84.

Pluem:

Hi! It’s me, ya boy Pluem. I’m here today to tell you lovely people what I love so much about The Miracle of Teddy Bear. Let’s start off with the writing, oh my god the writing! It's so tight and intricate. I feel like this show doesn't waste any of its scenes despite its very long runtimes, all the details, even the minor ones from the earlier eps, pay off in the later ones. And it made you feel rewarded if you were paying attention. Like, for an example, Nut doesn't eat his mother's lunch boxes in the early eps, which seems like a minor thing, pays off big time with the family trauma backstory. This show's writing is so smart and satisfying and I applaud everyone involved in the process of making it. 

And now time for a rant. Whoo! Let me tell you, after some researching I'm certain that this show was one of the most important Thai queer media in recent times. For people who didn’t know this show aired on the time slot called ละครหลังข่าว, or after news lakorn, on the most popular channel in Thailand, channel 3, and the rating was not good. It was bad, like really really bad, a lot of the BL girlies didn’t show up for it and the lakorn aunties just think it was too weird and was not ready for any gay leads lakorn. And it’s pissing me the fuck off because this show depicted the queer truth unapologetically and because of that reason that’s why there haven’t been a BL show in that time slot since.  

In my opinion, queer truth is as much as important as queer fantasy and because of this show’s failure in the rating—which is no fault of its own—it's one of the reasons why Thai bl has been on a decline in terms of shows that speak on queer truth. The balance is off and that sucks because as much as I love light fluffy BLs, queer Thai people deserve more than that. And also if you only consume sweet bubbly Thai BLs, especially GMMTV ones, it would rots your goddamn mind. It’s all about balance diet, baby! Anyways back to the lovely people of the podcast. Pluem, out! 

NiNi

I love Pluem so much. Thank you so much for that Pluem. 

Ben 

You gotta hang out with him sometimes. That boy is funny. [laughs]

NiNi

He is funny as hell. We gotta get there. 

So, Miracle of Teddy Bear is not quite a BL. It's also one that I have not had the time to watch as yet.

Ben

It's not a BL at all. This is like He's Coming to Me. It is no fault of the Western audience that they did not watch the show when it aired. It released originally in ‘22. There were rumors at the time that the show initially probably snuck by the censors because the premise seemed really ridiculous. A teddy bear turns into a human and, like, dates him. And they're like, oh my God, stupid BL trash. There's speculation that the show created a from-a-distance goofy-as-fuck-looking premise so that it could get away with saying a bunch of things it wanted to say about modern Thai society. And there's also rumors that are unconfirmed that the powers that be delayed the show's external distribution because they weren't that keen on the things that the show had to say. 

That being said, we do have access to it now and our boy Pluem is correct. It is an incredibly impressive family drama exploring intergenerational trauma. We sometimes joke about some of the soap opera level melodrama that goes into some of the Thai productions. And there is that element here, but it's grounded in some really believable human prejudice and bigotry that is really difficult to watch sometimes. One of my personal favorite things about this is how truly angry this protagonist was allowed to be. Our protagonist, Nut, is allowed to have a kind of recognizable queer rage and frustration that is not often afforded to a lot of characters in the maybe tourist-focused approach to BL financing and production.

If we have room for it in the transcript of this, I'll make sure to leave links to Shan and Twig's combined post about The Miracle of Teddy Bear and Captain Hands’s post about Nut’s rage. It is a really incredible production. While I would not say that this is a lovely BL to go watch for a fun uplifting time, if you really enjoyed Moonlight Chicken because it felt more realistic to you and you want to see what more honest to the queer frustration people live with storytelling maybe looks like in Thailand, this is very much a place to go. Also, Inn Sarin plays the teddy bear and he's really good in this and he's very beautiful.

NiNi 

Inn Sarin is very beautiful and The Miracle of Teddy Bear is on my list. This year my resolution is to catch up on my watch list and this is one of the things that's up at the top of it.

Ben 

I will say for those of you who are considering watching it, it is a marathon watch. Like a kdrama, it is like 16 90-minute episodes. It's long. So pace yourself.

NiNi

You know that that only makes me stronger, bestie.

Ben 

Oh, great! Our next one is gonna be about—wait, no, that show's not up yet. We'll save that comment for later.

39:52 - Theory of Love (2019) | TH | dir.  X Nuttapong Mongkolsawas (Bookworm)

NiNi 

But before we get there, let's get here and hear from Bookworm about our next show.

Bookworm:

Hello, this is Bookworm, @neuroticbookworm on Tumblr, and my pick for the Diamond League is one of my beloved BL favorites, Theory of Love. Theory of Love is a GMMTV show released in 2019, with Off and Gun in leading roles. The story follows a group of friends who are attending film school together, and one of the boys, Third, is secretly pining for his best friend, Khai. We watch as Khai’s promiscuity and generally shitty behavior towards Third cause a rift in their friendship, and he spends the rest of the show growing and rebuilding their relationship. 

To me, this show is a quintessential GMMTV gem because while it does have the common Thai BL pitfalls of weak side couples and a little narrative meandering, it does such an excellent job with executing its main narrative and themes that it cannot be ignored. The character growth arcs of both Khai and Third are well executed, and the storytelling tools employed by the show work effectively to support the writing. Khai’s arc in this show is one of my favorites ever, because very rarely do we get to see a character that is thriving in heteronormativity and patriarchy go through a convincing growth arc in media. Khai is extremely hateable because he is a bit of a dick to Third and his friends, but he is also a very successful het man among his cohorts. He’s good-looking and charming, hooks up regularly with a plethora of girls, who then fight over wanting to become his girlfriend. His fallout with Third pushes him to not only contend with and understand his bisexuality, but also realize how he had been an inconsiderate straight man who treats everyone around him like shit. And we all know and love Third and his crying in the shower antics, but he also has a lot of growing up to do in the show. He is a fan of the romance genre who lets the grandiose depiction of love in media influence his expectations in real life. He lets Khai mistreat him all the time in the name of unrequited love, and expects Khai to reciprocate his feelings without ever communicating them to him in the first place! Say it with me friends: mind reading is NOT an essential skill for a successful romantic relationship.

The show’s writing is very sharp and intentional in how it unpacks these characters and their communication issues. Each episode is titled after a famous romcom, which acts as an effective framing device, and also binds Third’s romcom brain rot to the narrative. The intentionality in writing also comes through in the special episode that goes beyond just serving fluff, further exploring the themes of the show, and bringing them to completion. As someone who enjoys good writing, Theory of Love was a very stimulating and enjoyable watch experience. The show is available to stream on Viki and the special episode is on YouTube for free. Thank you for listening, and I hope I've convinced you to give Theory of Love an honest-to-goodness chance.

Ben 

Well, NiNi, we have feelings about Theory of Love. Has Bookworm given you an inclination to re-approach it?

NiNi 

We have lots of feelings. So here's my thing about Theory of Love. I acknowledge that Theory of Love is a very good show. It is very sharply written. It is very well acted. Nevertheless, I hate it. And the reason that I hate it is because Khai reminds me far too much of somebody in my own past. I have a very personal connection to how much I hate this show, so I have always sat in the space of acknowledging that it is an excellent show while never wanting to watch it again. 

Ben, how do you feel about it?

Ben 

So, Shan successfully bullied me into rewatching the show, and I am unfortunately forced to admit that it's actually a very good show. And that it is one of the rare shows that makes a character suffer for the things that they did to harm the relationship with their friend.

I will say this as sort of a broader thing about OffGun while we're here. It's interesting reflecting on gems in the genre, particularly ones that GMMTV produced, and recognizing that I don't think OffGun have ever wasted our time when they've come back to play together in anything mildly romantic. I think Puppy Honey, for all its problems, has a good story with Pick and Rome. I think the storytelling of Theory of Love between them and the relationships that they're unpacking there is really good and a very familiar beat that happens with a lot of gay people with their best friend. I don't think they wasted our time with Not Me, Cooking Crush, or The Trainee.

So I genuinely think Theory of Love is good. I actually think, like, if I were to ever watch Theory of Love again, I think what I'd want to do is I'd want to rewatch the film that they named each episode right before watching that episode. That would almost triple the time it takes to watch it. But I think it would be really good as a sort of thought exercise to explore what that writing team, which is one of the better ones, what they're exploring in romance and what some of their foundational media is.

I'm sorry, NiNi, I gotta agree with Bookworm. It's worth including in a list like that.

NiNi 

I've never disagreed. This is written by the All Write team who have hits and misses, granted, but the All Write team wrote Bad Buddy. They were involved in writing parts of Kinnporsche. The All Write team has written some really good dramas for GMMTV in particular.

They really were on it in this show. I can fully acknowledge despite hating it, that this show is excellent. It's probably one of the best things that GMMTV has ever produced in terms of BL. I will absolutely give it that. I hate Khai so much that I don't think I can ever be objective about it, though. Maybe we will try your thought experiment with watching the films and then the episodes and see how I feel about it. That's going to be a longer project, though.

46:15 - The Untamed (2019) | CH | dirs. Steve Cheng and Chang Ka Lam (Shan)

NiNi

Speaking of long projects, let's move on to the next bit of propaganda for the next show coming from Shan.

Shan:

And another thing! This is Shan, back to yell some more about how this illustrious podcast that has covered so much of the best of the QL genre has never talked about the biggest goddamn BL in the entire world. I am of course referring to The Untamed, which is the live action adaptation of a very beloved Chinese web novel whose English title is Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation. This is the story of Wei Wuxian, his downfall, and his rebirth. And, you know, his companion—constant companion, enemy, frenemy, lover—through the years, Lan Wangji. Now, this is a 50-episode cdrama, so I could not possibly go into all of the many reasons it’s worth talking about, but I just want to name that this is a gap in the pod for us and I really think we need to dedicate some time to unpacking why this story has resonated so much with so many people all around the world that it continues to be globally popular. It continues to attract new fans every week. It continues to dominate fandom spaces many years after it was originally published, and after the show originally came out. It's still getting new adaptations as we speak! So anyway, putting that out there for y'all's consideration to think about The Untamed as a member of the Diamond League, and also, maybe, a show worthy of a full episode of discussion. 

NiNi

Ben, what do you think about Shan's plug?

Ben

Shan said illustrious with a hard R and I never moved past that. [NiNi laughs]

Ben 

So, NiNi, you mentioned during The Miracle of Teddy Bear that the idea of going on a 24-hour journey with The Miracle of Teddy Bear did not intimidate you. And yet, the idea of going on a 40- to 43-hour journey with The Untamed repulses you. Elaborate.

NiNi 

Not repulses. I am yet to really find an interest in cdrama. I have attempted some cdrama and the closest that I have gotten to watching, consistently, cdrama is watching Taiwanese BL, which is completely different.

Ben

Yeah, it does not count.

NiNi 

It's one of those things where I will probably get around to it eventually, but cdrama is not really my thing yet. Maybe one day. 

Ben

This show is so funny to watch. Like, the loop is the same for everyone. You watch the first couple episodes and you're like, what is this ridiculous nonsense? And then after a few episodes, you're like, wait, this is actually quite watchable nonsense. And then there's a turning point where something clicks and you go, “This show invented love.” And that happens to every single person who watches it. It really is an incredible viewing experience. 

And I agree with Shan that it is not a show to be ignored and put aside. If you have an interest in the genre itself, even a passing academic interest in it, it's one of those shows that you kind of have to watch. You need to understand, you have to go in and see, why is it this show? For so many BL fans, it's this show. The show came out years ago and still dominates. Active fandoms continue to make content, continue to engage around it. 

I think it is very much worth watching for so many different reasons. Because it's a censored romance, they have to sneak their story into the plot. And this creates some really interesting challenges and forces a lot more compelling drama. It's a historical costume drama, there's a lot of martial arts stuff and fighting in it, which leads to some really great political drama as well. It's a really compelling experience. This is probably the most plotty show you guys ever watch from a recommendation from us, because cdrama does not hold your hand on anything. They are constantly hitting you with details that must be processed and paid attention to. And I think that makes for an incredibly stimulating experience.

NiNi 

This show is a monster, I have friends and people who I know who don't watch BL, are not interested in BL, but have seen this show or have heard about this show. It's huge, it's everywhere. A lot of people have gotten into it in and out of BL space. 

It's one of those things that I probably will have to watch at some point. I'll work up to it. We'll see if I can get to it by the end of the year.

Ben 

I do want to see you watch it.

NiNi 

Once I graduate and I have some time, we'll see what happens.

51:42 - We Best Love (2021) | TW | dir. Ray Jiang (Twig)

NiNi

Our final entry in the Diamond League comes from Twig.

Twig:

We Best Love is a Taiwanese series from 2021 in two parts: No. 1 For You and Fighting Mr. 2nd. Both are six episodes long, and both are on WeTV, and I love both for different reasons. 

No. 1 For You is about Zhou Shu Yi and Gao Shi De, childhood rivals in their final year of high school. Shu Yi has always come second in all competitions since they were little kids, and is determined to come first before they graduate, but gets distracted by being rejected by his crush. Shi De steps in to help him forget about the rejection in the most annoying way possible. This series is fun, silly, sweet, earnest, and a really cute rivals to lovers story about first love. The line "my feelings for you are none of your business" will remain forever iconic. If you like rivals to lovers, the oblivious + pining trope, competence, the bokeh effect, and language shenanigans—as Shu Yi is half-Japanese and slips into Japanese when he's annoyed—you will love this part. 

Fighting Mr. 2nd comes with a time-skip; Shu Yi is now running his own company and Shi De comes back into his life as the head of a start-up that Shu Yi is trying to acquire. This part is more moody, full of angst, and generally more 'adult'; it's also beautiful.  I don't think it will be giving too much away to mention that this is the part that has the iconic line "you didn't believe in my forever," which is one of the best retorts to noble idiocy I've ever heard. I also need to shout out this part for containing one of the best drunk acting scenes in BL, and in general the incredible performances of Maruyama Yusuke and Sam Lin in this and both parts. 

There are also two side couples that run through both parts, at least one of which I think was supposed to have a third part but we never got it, so their stories are a little rushed. Still, for a story about falling in love, forgiveness, the trashing of noble idiocy, competence, the shift from competing to working together, and just crushing, devastating, off-the-charts intense levels of devotion to your first love, do yourself a favour and give this series a try. 

NiNi

I think that captures it. I don't know how you feel.

Ben 

I want Twig to write a fic called Determined to Come First about these boys.

NiNi 

[laughs] Oh my God. You dirty, dirty bitch. [Ben laughs]

So this is really, really a great one. I am more of a fan of Fighting Mr. 2nd than No. 1 for You because of the aforementioned greatest drunk scene of all time. But both are very good and I echo Twig's enthusiastic recommendation to watch these.

Ben

I agree. Sam Lin and Yu, I think, have had the most compelling chemistry I think I've experienced in BL. If I had to pick my favorite pair in a lineup of the 6,000 boys we've seen in BL, it would always be the two of them, at least in the top three, every time, without fail.I love Yu so much. I have Yu’s photo book here.

NiNi 

He is very, very pretty. And he is a very, very good actor. I think—correct me if I'm wrong, Ben—wasn't this his first role?

NiNi 

And he really blew it out of the water. I remember looking at some of the BTS from the show and them discussing how as an actor, Sam Lin is more experienced, so he was sort of guiding Yu through the whole thing and a lot about the process of working together and filming the show was very interesting stuff. If I can find it again, I will link it in the show notes or in the transcript, because it was some really interesting stuff about just the process of acting, which is one of the things that I really enjoy thinking about when I watch these shows.

Ben 

I don't want to get lost in the lore, but this show has some great lore.

NiNi 

It really does have some great lore and Sam Lin is just an incredible, incredible actor. There are things that Shi De does, his tiny little 'Hi'. I will never not think about that. I will never not think about the physicality that he put into the role. His actions are very tense and then languid in some really interesting ways that made me think about dance. He's just a fantastic actor and he really helped Yu pull himself along and give truly excellent performances, both of them.

Ben 

I agree. Their kisses are really great, too. Like the bridge kiss in the first part and the couch kiss in the second one. Really compelling scenes. Still thinking about these boys years later. I miss them! Bring them back to me.

NiNi 

I do miss him. What is Sam Lin up to? I know we last saw him in Unknown. I miss him a lot.

Ben 

Me too. 

This one's great, though. I really am glad that Twig put it out here because it's not like we don't love the show. It just premiered before we started the podcast. This show is excellent. I highly recommend going to watch it. You watch them as two parts, but they’re a complete experience. I feel that way about We Best Love, that No. 1 For You and Fighting Mr. 2nd are a complete story together. And I really do agree with Twig that it is rare to see a show punish someone for their noble idiocy the way this one did.

NiNi 

He suffered absolutely for being so dumb and we love to see it. 

Ben 

He really was so dumb. But so was Shu Yi? I mean, goddamn.

NiNi

He really was so very dumb. I mean, there were some dumb boys but they got it together after, my god, five years apart.

Ben

Speaking of lore, let's not get lost in deleted scene stuff, but the deleted scenes are required viewing for this one.

NiNi

Absolutely required viewing. Walk, do not run, find them all. This show is incredible. I like the long arc of it because I like when shows really follow people through their life and how the consequences of their actions show up in their life later on. I did enjoy that.

57:59 - Ben and Nini's Drive-by Faves

NiNi

Wow! That's it. That's our diamond league.

Ben

It was really fun getting to hear the voices of a bunch of our friends on here. It's very fun how international BL fandom is because you guys get to hear like five different nationalities on here with different accents as a result.

NiNi

Definitely a lot of fun. We always love to hear our friends' voices. Always expanding the conversation outward is our goal.

Ben

Alright, NiNi, before we go, what bonus show would you toss on here that we haven't covered that you really love and want in this conversation? And it cannot be Love by Chance, you plug that show constantly so it does not count.

NiNi 

I can't even describe how much I love Love by Chance. I am always rewatching it. I am never not rewatching Love by Chance. I have my embarrassing fave which is Love by Chance, which I'm absolutely not embarrassed by but if I had to put something in the Diamond League, it's gonna be The Eclipse.

Ben 

Interesting, why The Eclipse?

NiNi 

Because I think that The Eclipse is the closest that Golf has gotten to saying what they really want to say, and I feel very strongly about all of the characters in it as individuals, not just the romances. I love that they're allowed to be wrong and they're allowed to hurt each other and they're allowed to be angry and to lash out in anger and be forgiven or not be forgiven. I love that we have femmes in there who are stronger than everybody and who are out front and loud and who get the apology that they deserve in the end from the people who have harmed them. I love the special. I love that they focus on the fact that, once people get together, that doesn't change who they are. And sometimes who they are is in conflict and they need to decide if they care enough about each other to compromise or if who they are is more important than that. And I love that we got to explore somebody who is getting into art, who is not supported by their parents, but has their friends as support. 

I love a lot of things about The Eclipse. It is not perfect. It is rough in some ways, but I think the underlying themes are incredible.

Ben 

I got two. I'm cheating. I can do what I want. 

NiNi 

It's your show. [laughs]

It's from the Philippines. It's Gaya Sa Pelikula. We've mentioned it on the show quite a few times. 

NiNi

Amazing.

Ben 

We've not done a deep dive rewatch reaction on it, but it is excellent. It is one of the more interesting shows that came out of the Filipino BL’s pandemic surge. I really like the way they approach cohabitation in this one. I liked the way they explored someone being closeted, living with someone who is out, and navigating that space with them. I haven't had another show that I think really captured that experience that well. I really like the development of the relationship between Karl and Vlad. It also has a gay uncle. I'm always going to pimp out a show that's got a great gay uncle in it. It is a really excellent show from ANIMA Studios. Go check this out for your own sake.

NiNi 

I will say that it is required viewing for listeners of this podcast. It is one of our top top tops. It is incredibly compelling. It is tightly written. It is beautifully acted and it has the most banging soundtrack of music that I have heard in BL.

Ben 

My other show is Rainbow Prince. I love it so much!!

NiNi 

It's also on the list, bestie. It's also on the list.

Ben 

The first BL musical Rainbow Prince was the first. It's done it the best. I don't want to hear from anyone else. It is so fun. It is so good. Every musical should have like two songs you really love and one song you should just absolutely despise. And Rainbow Prince has that. It's so great. I love how ridiculous this is. Oxin Film’s stuff is usually very slapped together scripts that they're often letting actors ad-lib for no reason and long scenes. It is such a weird viewing experience sometimes, but goddamn is this show so much fun And if I ever marry someone, this soundtrack will be played at my reception, I will see you all on the dance floor.

NiNi 

I watched the first episode before I got distracted by other things. I do have to continue it. The music that I heard so far, I really enjoyed. Hiling is a very, very beautiful song, very well performed. I am looking forward to watching the rest of this.

Ben

I'm about to go play the soundtrack before I go to bed.

NiNi

[laughs] Awesome.

Ben 

I love this show so much. It's just so much fun. Go watch it so you can have complex feelings about Oxin Films like me and Twig.

NiNi 

With that, we are wrapping up the Diamond League, which was meant to be a holiday special and you know what? It's a holiday somewhere in the world so it's still our holiday special.

Ben

Thanks to our friends for humoring us and putting their voice notes out for us. This was a lot of fun to coordinate.

NiNi 

We out. Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben 

Peace!

[the-conversation-pod]

Year in Review 2024

AND WE'RE BACK!

Come join Ben, NiNi, and Shan as we talk about the trends we noticed, air some grievances, hand out some of our favorite fan awards, and make some new resolutions!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:00:55 - 2024 Headlines: Industry Consolidation 00:06:49 - 2024 Headline: Self-Censorship 00:13:52 - 2024 Headlines: Vertical Format Micro-BLs and Other Shit We're Anti 00:20:14 - Festivus Airing Of The Grievances 00:36:51 - 2024 Fan Awards 00:55:49 - QL Resolutions 01:04:45 - Affirmations and Hopes for the Future

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the vibes queen

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:00:55 - 2024 Headlines: Industry Consolidation

Ben 

And we're back. Oh my God, it's time to review 2024 before we get to the VIIB Awards, where it's just nonstop us talking about our faves. Once again, we have brought Shan into the booth because we have too much to discuss. Shan, say hello.

Shan

Hello!

Ben

First, it's time for us to talk about the big ideas of the year. NiNi, as the person who loves Thai BL the most on The Conversation, let's talk about how clearly the money is drying up and everybody is having to shuffle to whoever's got something to offer them.

NiNi 

Is the money drying up or is it just being funneled all to the same place? Because it feels like more money is getting spent on fewer things. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing, but I'm not sure that I can put my finger up and say that's a bad thing, either. We have seen some definite dips in quality. We don't have as many faves this year as we did last year, or even the year before. But what we did love, we loved-loved. 

So it's a complicated picture, I guess, but definitely there's been a consolidation and we wanted to talk about it a little bit because we predicted this in our very first set of episodes, all those many, many, many moons ago. We predicted that there was a consolidation coming in Thai BL because everything just got so big, so fast, and that usually precedes everything's starting to shrink back down a little bit.

Ben 

Big things we noted this year was GMMTV absorbing a bunch of free agents and, in one case, basically the entire staff of a whole studio that they now hire to do production work for them. 

Shan

Mmhmm. It's been wild. Like every week, I feel like we've been seeing announcements of new talent acquired by GMMTV.

Ben 

Barcode is now at GMMTV.

NiNi 

That was a big get.

Shan 

All the Wabi Sabi boys this year, too.

NiNi 

Yeah, those were the two big headlines, Wabi Sabi getting folded into GMMTV was one and definitely Barcode coming right at the end of the year. That was a big one.

Shan 

They also got Dimple Fluke.

NiNi

I mean, we love Dimple Fluke, but I don't know how big Dimple Fluke is in the general fandom—

Shan 

—He's big in my heart, NiNi, big in my heart.

Ben

[laughs] We thought this was coming when they got Singto to come back. Clearly trying to do it on his own didn't work and they were able to get him back in their house. I don't know how I feel about it. Wabi Sabi is no longer doing talent management. BOC seems to be shrinking

NiNi 

BOC (Be On Cloud) has said that they're backing off of talent management, as well. They dropped most of their roster. I think they only represent Mile, Appo, and Bible now.

Ben

Wow.

Shan 

GMMTV is the big studio that seems to want to be in the idol management game. And so that's where a lot of the talent is going. What feels concerning about it to me—we've talked quite a lot on this podcast about the increase in output, but not a commensurate increase in quality from GMMTV.

Out of all of the BLs that they're putting out annually, which is around eight to 10, there may be only a couple that actually have really good scripts behind them. So they're acquiring all this talent, but we know they don't have enough good writing to support shows to support this much talent. They put out, this year, a script writing contest to the plebes to say, “Help us, we need help writing shows.”

NiNi 

I was just gonna bring that up.

Ben

With hostile as fuck language, by the way.

Shan 

They literally went to the fans and said, “Can you write us some shows? Because we got nothing and we're acquiring all this talent.” That's just on the BL side. They've got this whole side of the house of these great, talented actresses and very few projects to cast them in. So it's concerning to me to see all the talent going to this one place that clearly cannot handle everybody that they're taking on.

Ben

It worries me too, because we've noticed a lot less sponsorship deals in most of their shows. One or two shows per year will get the usual eight- to 10-plus sponsor cards at the beginning, but that number has dropped off overall. It's very clear that there's maybe not as much ad money helping fund the production in the first place.

NiNi 

Bestie, I haven't seen an Oishii ad in quite some time.

Shan 

Right, where did Oishii go?

Ben 

If the juice makers have given up, it's over.

NiNi 

It is concerning to see this consolidation happening. There's a few people who are out on their own, who I think might be able to survive on their own. Like Jeff is out on his own, Billkin and PP are out on their own, and they're probably the ones who can sustain. Everybody else is either going to GMMTV or they're getting into the other side of GMM Grammy, like the One31 kind of lakorn side. But even that is shrinking, we're given to understand, people are moving into BL because that's the growing side of the market. 

Actors are moving into BL who might not have done BL before. Big names got into BL this year, like Jes Jespipat did 4 Minutes with Bible, a Be On Cloud production. He's a big lakorn actor. And then JJ and Tor did Spare Me Your Mercy at the end of the year. The headline on that really is like these big lakorn actors who nobody would have ever expected to do gay shit are doing the—well, in the case of Spare Me Your Mercy, semi gay shit. But Jes did gay gay shit in 4 Minutes, you know what I mean? So that's one of the big, I think, headlines that we need to be looking at looking at Thai BL in particular going forward.

00:06:49 - 2024 Headlines: Self-Censorship

Ben 

We need to talk about Thai BL starting to self-censor, likely to reach specific markets.

Shan 

Yeah, it's concerning. I wouldn't call it a trend yet, but we've seen a few examples of it in the last few months and it's making me nervous. What I'm talking about is, productions that are publicly saying, admitting that they are censoring some of the more explicit romantic or sexual content from their BL shows so that they can focus on reaching a wider audience with their message. We've seen statements like that from the Addicted Heroin creator. We've seen recently the screenwriter of Spare Me Your Mercy talk about the decision to remove explicit sexual content from the show for the same reason. We saw some of this related to Love Sick as well. If you're gonna do a Love Sick remake in 2024, the one thing you would expect them to improve on is not having censored kisses, but nope, they didn't do that. 

So there's this drive and this stated intention by some of the creators behind these shows to create BL dramas that minimize the actual BL as much as possible. They want to take advantage of the market for BL. They want to take advantage of the fan interest and the fan engagement for BL while also getting away with keeping the actual queer romance in these stories as minimal as possible. That is pretty shitty. They're coming out and they're saying this openly, this is not us just guessing.

NiNi 

Just saying that taking the romance out is why I left a lot of Western media. I'm so tired of seeing people say things like, “Well this doesn't have any plot.” The romance is the plot, the relationship is the plot and not recognizing that in a genre that is about romance is the part that kind of makes me go like mmm, okay, like yes—

Ben 

The genre is literally called Boy Love. (all) Where is the love? 

How old is that song? Hold on, let me Google that real quick.

Shan 

Don't look it up. But this is what I mean. Like, NiNi and I are refugees from Western romance. We came over to Asia for kdrama, because we wanted to see a genre of television that respected romance, that took it seriously as its own storytelling, that actually respected romance fans and people who like love stories. That is one of the best and most consistent features of Asian drama. And so to have now this subset of Asian drama creators who are specifically working in a queer love space that is even more hard for people to find, even less accepted by the mainstream, to have them intentionally self-censoring because they are trying to prove some kind of weird point. It just completely misses the point for me of why people are here engaging with these dramas. Certainly it doesn't seem to be helping in terms of pushing forward the social agenda in these countries where they're making these shows.

Ben 

This is the part that always stresses me out when we're trying to measure how gay can it be and still get funded because this happens to us repeatedly in queer viewer space. Netflix pulled this shit on us where, when they first wanted to go to digital streaming, they set up deals with all of the gay distribution houses. And we got to watch all of these movies that we had never had access to before. And it was great. And we all were like, hell yeah, I'm going to go on Netflix so can watch my little gay shows.

As soon as they get tastemakers—read: queer and brown people—to pimp their shit, they try and immediately convert and get a bunch of normies in there.

NiNi 

Yep, that's basically what happens.

Ben 

This, again, this is not shit I'm making up! This is what really happened.

Shan 

These are the patterns and we've seen them play out so many times in so many places and it's the pattern we're starting to see play out in BL and it's alarming.

NiNi

I mean! It played out on Tumblr. The platform that we spend so much of our time on, this is exactly what happened. The people who built the ship got kicked out of the ship.

Ben 

It's been an actually horrible year on Tumblr for queer people, especially trans people. It's a bad look that the gays who make the shit who seem like they're in an accepted enough space are either choosing to or being pressured to straighten up their act so that they can continue to get fed and make stuff. That doesn't feel great. It feels really worrisome as a sign about what may or may not be going on. Like it's only a few things right now, but we're seeing this everywhere else.

NiNi 

What we're basically saying is support GagaOOLala

Shan

Please! If you're gonna spend money on any of these platforms, spend your money on the queer platform hosted in Taiwan that actually cares about queer people.

Ben 

If you have spent significant sums of money on iQIYI in the last year for two shows and you haven't spent money on Gaga, reflect and then message us. [all laugh]

NiNi 

And I mean if you need yet another reason to subscribe to Gaga, their social media manager is like the greatest person in the world.

Ben 

They're my favorite person. They made fun of Kidnap. They were like, Kidnap, the show that's probably poorly named, is back on this week.

Shan 

Let's just get on our soapbox about Gaga for a minute, okay? They are the only platform that streams the vast majority of Japanese QL, period. They bring us Taiwanese BL. They bring us Thai BL in increasing volume.

Ben 

The WeTV shows have been consistently airing on Gaga lately. GMMTV is also clearly trying to consolidate and are starting to put their shows behind the Gaga and iQIYI paywall.

Shan 

It's a good platform that is worth supporting and it's far cheaper than any other streaming you're paying for. You should have it. You should subscribe.

NiNi 

This is not an ad.

Ben 

They do. We are not being paid. But if you guys want to hang out—I'm just kidding. Don't put that in there, NiNi. [laughs]

NiNi 

Yeah, but yeah, support Gaga. That's the only platform that when Park Seo Ham came out of the military, sent out a tweet saying, “Tell the world the bitch is back.”

Ben 

I love her!

Shan 

They deserve it.

NiNi

She is us, we are her, and this is a non-binary she. We don't know the gender of the GagaOOLala social media manager, but she's one of the girls.

Ben

I'm using ‘she’ in a gay way. It's very affectionate.

NiNi 

She, non-gender specific.

00:13:52 - 2024 Headlines: Vertical Format Micro-BLs and Other Shit We're Anti

Ben 

While we're bitching about things, let's talk about all these stupid vertical TV shows that keep coming out and how we must continue to refuse to watch them. We have already seen one of the shows that [Iijima] was in is going to apparently be put on TV properly. 

Good job, everybody, in not watching that. [NiNi and Shan laugh]

Do not let this become a thing. We cannot tell them that we are willing to watch shows two minutes at a time on our phones only. Unacceptable.

Shan 

Not only two minutes at a time on our phones only, but only after burning through a huge number of ads. That's how you get to the shows.

Ben

Gross.

NiNi 

This is like Ben's whole conversation in one of our more recent episodes about the BL TikTok filter. They're trying to get you used to the BL TikTok filter in like a million ways.

Ben 

I won't. I will NOT accept this!

Shan

Because the aim of this is to stop making actual dramas and just get us to watch a version of TikTok on our phones and call that BL. That's the end game here, guys. Don't fall for it.

NiNi 

Do not fall for it.

Ben 

We are here to support storytellers only. We are not here to make ad guys happy.

NiNi

I think that's a good segue.

Ben 

Speaking of ad guys who clearly don't like us, Korea is not interested in BL right now. [laughs]

NiNi

Oh my God.

Ben

We got three good Korean BLs this year.

Shan

At least they were all excellent. I know we talked about it on our recent Hallyu episode but now that the year is complete and the data has been crunched, I just want to underline this. We got, not necessarily fewer shows total from Korea, but we got fewer shows of a decent length. We got fewer shows of quality. A lot of what Korea put out this year was junk, frankly. These little vertical series, these small little web series that are really short episodes and very lacking in narrative. And then they also put out three of the very best things of the year. 

So it was a real dichotomy. In years previous Korea was putting out a more steady run of quality shows. We saw a real drop off of that this year.

Ben 

Oh shit, did Strongberry even make anything this year?

NiNi 

I was just about to say this is the year that Strongberry pissed me off because they made that Happy Ending thing that was neither happy nor an ending.

Shan 

And they made Blossom Campus, which was terrible.

Ben

Ew…

Shan

Strongberry let us down this year for the first time ever.

NiNi 

I kind of feel it for them because the CEO of Strongberry has spent so much time telling us how hard it is to get shit made and to get money to get shit made. So I was just like, ooh, things must be getting, like, real rough if they couldn't put out anything good.

Shan 

Can we though just take a moment to shout out the CEO of Strongberry for putting out his own little story about what happened with that show and basically being like, I told the writer not to fucking do that and he didn't listen to me.

Ben 

I did love that. I love that he just said, I told her she ain't let one listen.

Shan 

He was like, this is not on me. Do not associate this with me. You love Strongberry. You will continue to love Strongberry. [NiNi laughs]

Ben 

He basically did say it like that. We were like, all right, girl. [laughs]

Shan 

We'll let you have this one.

NiNi 

Yeah, but I mean it's a year in which we had nothing good from Strongberry, and that to me is like, wow. We got other really good stuff, some of it came out of absolutely nowhere. And I think that it had to come out of absolutely nowhere to get aired, because, as we saw when things are in the pipeline and they know about it, they're going to try to kill it.

Ben

Our last big highlight of the year we want to point out is that there was a Japanese BL airing almost every week this year. That is unprecedented. Usually, even if stuff gets made, we barely know about it, it gets no distribution, and the fansubbers are having people show up at their houses over. [NiNi laughs]

So we almost never get a lot of the Japanese BL, but there was a significant amount that was just handed to us on legal platforms for us to support, most notably GagaOOLala.

Shan 

GagaOOLala! I started Japanese QL Corner in January of 2024 on Tumblr. It's just a weekly post that I do that tracks the Japanese QL that's out. And I had things to write about every single week for the entire year. And we weren't always having to chase things down in the dark corners of the internet. We had things that we could watch on a regular streaming platform every week from Japan, And there were weeks when I was writing about six or seven shows at a time. That's how much was airing.

NiNi 

Now were those six or seven shows great? 

Ben 

Not always.

NiNi

I would say no, not always, but in terms of batting average, I think Japan did pretty well this year.

Shan 

I'd say still about half of the shows that aired from Japan this year were good to fantastic. And the other half were problematic here and there. There were only a handful that I thought were, like, bad bad.

Ben 

My favorite thing about watching Japanese BL is that I am never mid about it. I either really liked it or I was like, who is this for? [Shan and NiNi laugh]

I love that there's not all this wishy washy shit about like, oh, maybe it's kind of okay if I squint this direction. I'd be like, no, fuck that show. A 4 for you, a 3 for you, a 4 for you. Stay away from the shows I love. All of you over here, my 9s and 10s. Don't look at them. They're not worth it. Averages are not the most useful metric but I really like that when I'm recommending or not recommending Japanese BL, I feel very firm about how I feel about these shows.

Shan 

I do think that there has been a lot more variation in quality with the high uptick in volume of shows. But the batting average is still pretty damn high. 

We've got two new Japanese QL productions starting this week. So I'm excited that it's gonna keep going.

Ben 

That's it for the big highlights.

00:20:14 - Festivus Airing Of The Grievances

Ben 

Before we close out this year, we need to vent a little bit of grief. We need to talk about the things that we were super hype about that made us look like clowns. We're gonna start with our biggest disappointments in no particular order. Starting with the worst. 

NiNi, Wandee Gooday!

NiNi

[laughs] The absolute worst. I am so pissed off at this show. I talked a little bit about how pissed off I was with this show in our mailbag episode, but friends, I still have more ire in me about the show. I was so stoked, and the show dragged me along for a solid five to six episodes and then literally dropped me on my face. And that's something that I do not forgive in any way. I will remain pissed off forever. 

This is not The Shipper level, but damn close and I can't do it.

Ben 

If you want to feel a little solidarity, David was actually bitching about this at brunch earlier this weekend. He said, I can't believe I wrote a whole post for the first time on Tumblr about this show only to be made to look like a clown like this. He said he's never writing anything ever again.

NiNi 

[laughs] David's like, how dare you embarrass me?

Shan 

How dare you? It sucked, man. It was a huge letdown.

NiNi 

And the thing is that it could have been so good.

Shan

Could’ve had it all.

NiNi

I'm convinced that the first half and the second half were written by two different people. That's the only thing that makes any sense to me.

Ben 

Yes, let's start talking about BL like Star Wars fans. STAR WARS COULD BE SO GOOD IF IT WAS GOOD. Before you bitches come after me, my very first email address I made is a Star Wars email. Don't come for me.

NiNi 

Don't come for him, period. Okay?

Shan 

Leave us alone, it's been a long year.

Ben 

Speaking of a long year of disappointments, Shan, I'm letting you have the entire disappointment that was all of Sammon’s collected works this year.

NiNi 

Oh God, here we go.

Shan

We're calling this the Sammon Omnibus entry in the disappointment list. This year there were four different projects associated with Dr. Sammon. She screen wrote three out of four, and was the original writer for one: these shows were Dead Friend Forever, 4 Minutes, Spare Me Your Mercy, and Petrichor. All QLs, all with her attached, all very heavily promoted and very buzzy. 

I'm not gonna say that none of these shows were good at all or had any artistic merit. I actually really liked Dead Friend Forever until it fucked up the ending. 4 Minutes I found to be a very beautiful but ultimately incoherent mess. Spare Me Your Mercy was just a flop for all of us, none of us finished the show after all of us putting it on our list of the most anticipated of the year. 

Ben 

After JJ put his whole ass into Great Men Academy, I can't believe they embarrassed him like this.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

We have all seen Tor and JJ in other projects. You are lying if you claim that they were on their game in this show. I'm sorry. They have both done better with other people with better material. This show did not live up to the hype. I did not even finish it because I was so disappointed.

Ben

I can't believe we're saying that Tor was better in fucking Midnight Museum.

NiNi 

He was! He was absolutely better in Midnight Museum.

Shan 

He was better in Midnight Museum! And he had better chemistry with Gun than he did with JJ in this BL. JJ was light yards better in Great Men Academy than he was here. I'm not trying to shade the actors. It's not their fault. It's the material. The writing was bad. The show was flat. They seemed not at all dialed into their characters. They seemed confused about what they were supposed to be conveying, probably because their relationship development arc didn't make any fucking sense. It's not the actor's fault. They are very good actors and this show did not give them what they needed to succeed. I cannot believe what a letdown this show was after all that hype. There's also Petrichor, which is the first GL that has her attached to it. And I had to drop that one, too. It was hard to watch. 

Sammon is kind of considered one of the best screenwriters in the QL industry in Thailand. She wrote Triage. She was attached to Manner of Death. She has a track record. She has all these novels that are very popular and well liked. So there's a certain level of expectation that comes with her shows. But this year, her big year of four QLs, this was not it. Not a single one of these projects left me satisfied. I started the year as such a strong fan of her work, and I'm ending the year kind of throwing my hands up like, well, girl, guess Triage was a fluke. I don't know what's been going on, but you have not even come close to meeting that standard again.

NiNi 

I liked DFF and 4 Minutes more than you guys did. We've talked about this already. But I will say that these are shows that they spent money on. I have no complaints about production quality on any of these shows. They pulled up some quality actors. They got Engfah in Petrichor. They got JJ and Tor for, as you mentioned, Spare Me Your Mercy. Bible and Jes put on a clinic in 4 Minutes. And the DFF boys, they put their whole pussy in. They acted these shows, and they produced these shows. They look great, they sound great, but the writing just didn't hold up to everything else that they were putting in. 

And they got progressively worse because the one that I enjoyed the most was Dead Friend Forever, that was the first one. And the one that I enjoyed the least was Spare Me and Mercy. Like, we all dropped it. For different reasons, I think, but we all dropped it.

Shan 

I mean, it was not working on any level. So no matter what you were there for, there was just nothing to hold on to. If you were there for the romance, if you were there for the mystery, if you were there for the euthanasia discussion, it didn't really succeed at any of those.

NiNi 

Let's move on. Because we could talk about this forever.

Ben

Oh, that's fine. It's time for me to go the fuck off. I've been holding this in for months. [NiNi] It's time to talk about My Love Mix Up.

NiNi 

God, here we go.

Ben

Before I hurt people's feelings about this, I like Fourth and Gemini a lot. I think they're both very charming. I think they are both real talents and I am very much looking forward to seeing how they mature over the next decade, the way we got to experience with the original GMMTV BL boys. That being said, part about supporting your faves, for me, is wanting them to get work that uses them well. And I do not believe that My Love Mix Up used anyone well. It's extremely disappointing to me that after doing such a good job on Cherry Magic Thailand, that GMMTV released a show that did everything I was afraid would go wrong with Cherry Magic Thailand.

Cherry Magic Thailand managed to make the Cherry Magic story applicable to the Thai context in a way that we all loved. My Love Mix Up was not a Thai adaptation of Kieta Hatsukoi. It was My School President in a terrible Halloween costume, clearly trying to sell more tickets for concerts for these boys. It was embarrassing and it was a waste of everyone's time. I am so mad about this because I had doubts about this the whole way into it, but really hoped that after the strong showing in Cherry Magic, that there was gonna be something really cool here. I had a lot of hopes about this. This sucked.

And so much of it comes down to casting. As much as I like Forth and Gemini, I like them as individual actors, not as a branded pair. I think they work just fine together, but they were not the correct boys to play these characters together.

NiNi 

It's especially noteworthy because there were other boys in My Love Mix Up who I think would have done a better job. 

Ben

[performately coughing] Aungpao!

NiNi

They put Aungpao in this show and they didn't make him one of the leads. Aungpao would have killed Atom.

Ben 

Yeah, Aungpao would have done a way better job.

Shan 

Yeah, he would have been perfect. 

Ben 

And I think Fourth should have played Ida's character.

Shan 

I watched one or two episodes of this before I dropped it. And to me, it was just such an obvious case of miscasting. They cast it based on wanting to shove a pre-existing branded pair into a set of characters that did not fit them. And so from the start, the whole production betrayed the story. That's just frustrating.

Ben 

And they clearly did not understand the major themes either. They really fucked it up.

NiNi 

I came at it from a different perspective than you guys, because you guys had watched Kieta Hatsukoi, and I deliberately did not watch Kieta Hatsukoi until after I had watched My Love Mix Up, because I wanted to be sort of a control, and I ended up in the same place on the whole thing that you guys did, watching Kieta Hatsukoi afterward. 

They did not get this right at all. They didn't have the spirit of it.

Ben 

I'm really glad you were able to arrive at this conclusion with us. Kieta Hatsukoi is really solid and I do not understand how they fucked that up that badly. It pissed me off. It was disappointing. Chop!

Speaking of chops, how dare they reboot Love Sick in 2024 and then fuck it up this badly. I loved Love Sick as what felt like the Thai Degrassi. How do you make a worse version of that? In 2014 Love Sick was absolutely insane. They had girls two-timing dudes in the same bed with them in their own apartment complex. They have motherfuckers trying to drown each other in the pools and shit. [NiNi laughs]

Shan

And they had sex. They didn't show it on screen, but those characters had sex.

Ben 

I get much of the stuff that we saw in 2014. Love Sick may have been adding stuff and they may have been trying to be more true to the book by just making it into this boring ass GL and BL experience, but it just wasn't good. And I was pissed because they went in a cool direction by making Aim queer that was really good, but it doesn't save the show.

Shan 

That was the only interesting thing I heard about this remake, is that they made Aim a lesbian which added a little bit of a layer to her desire to cling on to her boyfriend. But everything else they did worse on than the original show.

Ben 

I don't want to be super mean to these boys because everybody was new in Love Sick and everybody's clearly new here. But goddamn, the new kid does not match Captain. And the way that they went so hard in making him look like Captain undercuts him constantly because he's just not as good as Captain.

Shan 

You know, Ben, the moment I saw that buzzcut is when I knew that this production was doomed. [NiNi laughs] Because that is so not the fucking point. That's not the part of him you have to get right!

NiNi 

My whole thing about this is that to be disappointed you have to have expectations. I was not disappointed in Love Sick 2024 because I had no expectations. I did not watch it. From the time I saw that they were remaking Love Sick, I remember, I think we said on this podcast, “Who needs it? Nobody.”

Nobody needs a Love Sick remake in 2024.

Ben 

We were correct. We asked why it was made and they had no answer.

Speaking of why was this made, Yin and War had a great deal of fun with their friends in the show that they produced, Jack and Joker. I ended up dropping it because they killed Jennie and I refused to accept that and I left.

NiNi 

Jennie Panhan is a goddess and you cannot kill her on your show. I'm sorry, you just can't.

Shan 

They really shouldn't have. It was pointless and gratuitous and disgusting. 

But let me just say, I did finish this show and I don't wanna be super mean to Jack and Joker because here's the thing: it's not a real show. It is a self-funded vanity project from Yin and War so that they could hang out on a set with their friends.

Ben 

And Tee Bundit was there.

Shan 

And Tee Bundit was also there. I went into the show and I was like, I know this is not a real story. They cobbled this script together themselves. We're just having a good time here. That was my only expectation: this will be fun. It'll be entertaining. I have no expectations for a coherent story, for themes, anything like that. And even with that bar, the lowest bar I can possibly grant to a show, somehow this show disappointed me. 

It was a mess, but not a fun mess. It was boring. It was mostly sexless, which was the most shocking part to me. They had three pairings in this show, only one of whom actually kissed on screen. 

Ben 

They had our boy Pee in this show.

Shan 

They put Pee fucking Peerawich in this show and they didn't let him kiss anybody! I was pissed.

I'm livid, still. They had this great side couple that the fandom was super into. They never actually let them get together on screen. They did not become an actual romance. 

Ben 

The most useful thing about that side pair is that Shan recognizes Mark Siwat about 30% of the time now.

Shan 

I know what his face looks like now!

Hi, Mark Siwat, this is my letter of apology to you.

NiNi 

Shan has a very specific Mark Siwat face blindness.

Shan 

It's Mark Siwat-only face blindness. And I'm sorry, Mark Siwat, you don't deserve that from me. You were a delight in this show. And I'm so mad that your character did not get a proper story. 

The thing that frustrated me about this show is it's a fucking fan service project. So why aren't you serving the fucking fans? We spent 16 hours in this show and it was mostly boring nonsense. They stopped doing the capers halfway through for some reason and just made us sit in these endless plots about this stupid fucking mafia whatever, rich families playing squid games. It was stupid. It was boring. 

Meanwhile, they didn't deliver on most of the things that the fans wanted. What a pointless use of so much money. Why, Yin and War? Why?!

Ben 

We hadn't seen Mark properly in BL since Bite Me, so I was especially disappointed. I'm still mad about that, too! Don't you worry! I'm still mad!

NiNi

God, I'm still mad about Bite Me.

Shan 

This should have been the funnest thing that happened this year. And instead, it was boring and sad.

Ben 

I'm so sorry that you were on two of our disappointments, Jennie. You didn't deserve that, either.

NiNi 

That's an important thing to bring up. Like, where's the fun? I feel like there were things that should have been fun that were just a slog. Where did the fun go? If this is gonna be a caper BL, then be a caper BL. You know that it's bad if you can't get me to watch a Tee Bundit show. I have not watched a minute of it. You know I feel about Tee Bundit. I love him even when everybody else hates him. Except for Hidden Agenda, which we will never talk about again. But this show didn't even compel me to watch it, which is saddening.

Shan 

Yeah, it was lackluster and it was truly only the fan sentiment for Yin and War that made it popular. It was just fans supporting actors that they like, and there's nothing wrong with that. But there's no there there with this show.

NiNi 

Shout out to War’s pottery videos. Sir, you are hyper competent and I find that very attractive.

Shan 

And I really recommend just watching his pottery videos instead of this show.

Ben 

That's right, just head to IG instead. War did good work in Love Mechanics. That's why he's a fave. That doesn't mean I have to applaud everything he does after that, especially when it's not that good. 

I did like all of his outfits, though. Clearly he had a great time.

NiNi 

Okay, so now that we have completed our Festivus airing of the grievances… 

Ben

I feel better. I really do.

Shan

I'm happy we got that off our chests.

NiNi

Let's move into our fan awards.

00:36:51 - 2024 Fan Awards

NiNi 

In advance of our Very Important Internet BL awards, VIIB Awards that are coming up later this month for you guys, we just wanted to have a few awards that are just us having fun. And so we put the call out and we got some feedback.

Ben, take us into it.

Ben

We are finally awarding the Girl, You Tried winner of the year. Girl, You Tried, for those of you who have been with us, is something we like to award every season to shows that we think had really good ideas that maybe weren't executed as well as they could have been. We handed out quite a few awards this year. I don't remember all of them right now, but we have selected a winner.

Shan, would you like to announce the winner?

Shan

Ooh, do I get to announce? How exciting. Okay. 

The 2024 Girl, You Tried Award goes to Love Is Better The Second Time Around from Japan. [air horn]

Ben 

We've already covered this. I'm very happy about the yukata sex, but not about episodes 5 and 6.

Shan 

So close to being one of our favorite shows of the year. And that is why it gets this award.

NiNi 

Agreed. I am in 100% agreement.

Ben

Other shows that were up for consideration included The Sign, Living With Him, Ayaka Is in Love with Hiroko, I Hear the Sunspot—oof I got beef with that show—and The On1y One, Shan got beef with that one.

Shan 

I got beef with that show!

NiNi 

I think we made the right choice in terms of the final winner, though. I think of all of those the one that was closest to actually making it.

Ben

A bunch of those guys are in another MBS not-BL right now where they're all playing boxers, hugging each other without their shirts on, and sweatin’ and shit.

NiNi 

Yes, more information? You're burying the lede here. Like, I need to know where I can find it.

Ben

[laughs] Nowhere, man. It's not in the Western circles right now. 

NiNi 

The fan subbers are letting me down. 

Ben

I got a couple of Japanese fans keeping me in the loop. They send me little clips and it's all my favorite boys wrestling on the ground and shit in dark gyms.

NiNi

Why don't they make more shows like that?

Shan 

This is what I'm saying!

Ben 

Let me tell you, Petty's been demanding this BL for like four years.

Shan 

It's true.

NiNi 

I think we are actually getting a boxing BL next year.

Ben 

We are. [everyone laughs]

Onto our next award. It's time to award our Trash Fave of the year. 

NiNi, please describe the award.

NiNi 

Trash Fave is basically my favorite award. I cannot defend any of these shows, but I had such a good fucking time with them.

Shan 

Our Trash Fave winner of the year is Gym Affairs from, wait for it, China! Did you all know that China put out a real modern BL with kissing on screen in it this year? Well, they did, and it's called Gym Affairs, and it's winning the Trash Fave award because, listen. This show is not a quality production. It was clearly filmed on some iPhones with just whatever guys they could find around. But you know what? I respect it because it had a narrative, it had a clear story, and they are doing what they can in China to get these queer stories out, one way or another.

Ben 

It really spoke to guerrilla filmmaking, like they just really popped up somewhere, filmed what they needed to and got the fuck out of there.

Shan 

And it's a cute little show. It goes quick. Watch it on YouTube, it's free. It's a fast binge. It's charming. The actors are cute. It's a good time. We can't really call it a good show because the production quality is so low, but it's a fave. All of our friends who have seen it had a great time watching it. You should join in.

(Transcript note: The show has since been pulled from YouTube.)

Ben 

Our other two shows for consideration were Kidnap and OMG!Vampire. [NiNi laughs]

NiNi 

Yup.

Shan 

O-M-G Exclamation Point Vampire.

NiNi 

I was gonna say that y'all have very different definitions of trash than I do because even though I haven't seen Gym Affairs yet, from what I've heard about it, it is not trash it is just produced on a shoestring. Whereas Kidnap was actual trash.

Shan 

Yeah, Kidnap is super trashy. Like, trashy in the sense of, like, pulp novels.

NiNi 

It's called Kidnap, but there's only half a kidnapping, maybe.

Shan 

Did anyone actually get kidnapped in Kidnap? That was a Gaga joke.

Ben 

This show was so stupid.

NiNi 

At one point the guy kidnapped himself. Like, there was a lot going on.

Ben 

This show was so stupid that I got bored with Ohm Pawat, and was like I can’t do this anymore.

Shan 

I could only sustain myself by looking at Ohm's arms for so long.

NiNi 

This is what makes it my Trash Fave. I watched it till the very end because my favorite two things were in it, Ohm Pawat and being babygirl.

Shan 

You know what I think this is, NiNi? I think it's like when you open the trash can and you look inside, you sometimes find, like, this gem of a thing that someone threw in the trash. And that's what Gym Affairs is. And Kidnap is all the actual nasty, dirty trash around it.

NiN

Ohm, we love you on this podcast, sir. We love you so much and that's all we're gonna say.

Shan 

Free Ohm from this trash. That's what I want to say.

Ben 

We love you, even though all of Tumblr celebrated your character getting shot again, just like a few weeks ago.

Shan

And I don't think any of us actually watched OMG!Vampire.

Ben 

Our friends loved it. They had a great time with Lee and Frank's final show together.

Shan 

Several of our friends submitted it and they had a great time watching it. They highly recommend it if you're into vampires that are, apparently, very bad at being vampires. [NiNi laughs] You know, you should check that out if that's your thing.

Ben 

Onto my favorite award, it's time to award the BEST BOY!

NiNi 

The Namgoong Best Boy Award, which I promise I'm gonna watch Light On Me this year. I promise, I promise.

Ben 

NiNi, I swear to God.

All right. Shan, I'm putting this in my resolutions at the end of this. If NiNi does not watch Light On Me, we are not doing this show next year. [NiNi laughs] I've had enough. I have a list of shows that are non-negotiable for the next awards show. Light On Me and Rainbow Prince. 

NiNi 

Okay, I will. I absolutely will. 

Ben

You will watch them. There will be no more arguing about this!

NiNi

Okay, we're not arguing. It was never an argument. It's just more kind of, it always gets pushed down to the bottom of the list, but I promise you this year, bestie, this year.

Ben

Namgoong is the best boy and is the reason why we have this award. And this year, the award for Best Boy who did everything he could for the gays goes to Yai from The Sign. [air horn]

Congratulations, sir. We loved everything about you. We loved your arms. We loved your heart. We loved your wife.

Shan 

Mostly loved the wife the most.

NiNi 

I definitely had a lot to say about those arms. I'm sorry, I'm spacing out thinking about them now.

Shan 

This award is for the best supporting male friend who is all about helping the couple get together.

Ben 

He was so great. Good job, Yai.

NiNi 

Yai absolutely did that.

Ben 

What a mess of a show, but you had a clear throughline.

NiNi 

I just loved him saying, “Where were you discussing the problem? The bed or the sofa?” I think that was one of my favorite lines.

Shan 

He was mischievous.

Ben 

Other boys in consideration were Ryoga from I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama for his feathers and his support of his friends by tricking them into having a date and also telling Akafuji he was aggravating and then giving him useful advice.

Shan 

He was a real one. He was helpful.

NiNi 

He was the realest.

Ben 

Our last boy is Ryosuke from The Fragrance You Inherit, a last minute addition to this list.

Shan 

The drama did technically end right before the end of 2024. Ryosuke is the lead’s, Sakura, of the show, he's her bestie. He's been supporting her since college. He's the person who knows her and who props her up through all the hard things in her life, including her gay disappointment, her crushed, unrequited love, and parenting her son who is a perfect angel boy. He's there for it all. He is there to help her out. We love him.

Ben 

He is also played by Takeda Kouhei.

Shan 

He sure is! Looking excellent. Sir, I salute you.

Ben 

If you don't know who that is, you better ask somebody.

Shan 

You better not come ask me, because I'll get mad at you.

Ben 

On to my second favorite award. The Yiwha Best Girl Award!

NiNi 

Yiwha! We love her over here!

Ben 

I absolutely love Yiwha. I love that that show, all these years later, spawned the best girl and worst girls award. The Best Girl, like the Best Boy, goes to the girl who supports the boys the right way and is there for them and willing to scrap for them. 

NiNi, please hand out the award to our Best Girl.

NiNi 

Best Girl for 2024 is Lukpeach from Knock Knock Boys!. [air horn] All she wanted in life was to spread good information about sexual health and behavioral practices, to support her boys and to write non-creepy fan fiction about them. I salute you, Miss Mama. You are the best.

Shan 

Yes, support her in all her endeavors.

Ben 

She was a great character. I really like her as part of the evolution of the shipper character. I'm okay with them finding a way to write girls that really love gay boys and want them to have a good time without it being creepy. 

Beyond Lukpeach, we also had Jane from Knock Knock Boys!, Ju from Century of Love, and Pai from Cherry Magic Thailand on this list.

I liked Pai a lot and she was a strong contender for this award, particularly because she stole a motorcycle to make sure those boys had the scene they needed to have. And then she left. She explicitly said, “That scene is for them. I got what I needed. I know my boys are going to make this happen.”

Shan

Pai  was great at knowing the line between supporting and inserting herself where she didn't belong, and she never crossed the line.

Ben 

What a great character. This was a pretty decent year for fujo characters in the genre. That is one of the positive things I can say about this year in terms of trope-related stuff.

We have introduced a new award this year.

Shan 

What exciting stuff.

Ben

I'm gonna let you award this one, Shan. This is our Bridesmaid Award. This goes to…

Shan 

Hyunho from Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo. [air horn] Oh, I love it. This award is for the second leads. The character that can never win, but that still manages to make you kind of want them to and who makes you sympathetic for them when they inevitably lose. I think Hyunho was the platonic ideal of the kdrama second lead in Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo. He is definitely a deserving winner of this Bridesmaid Award.

Ben 

Our other two people in consideration were Sangwon for Love for Love's Sake, because he got into a whole fight for the gays and then got mad that they kept asking him for help for the rest of the show. And Kurosawa from Ossan's Love Returns, because this man has not won five times now. Incredible.

Shan 

He will always be the Bridesmaid eternally. But yeah, this is really Korea's category to lose, because this is what they do. Second leads are specifically a Korean trope.

NiNi 

Good job, Korea.

Ben 

We are once again awarding our favorite version of BGP!

Shan 

Ben, remind the people what BGP means.

Ben 

BGP is a term that we got from Bump Up Business, a terrible BL from the boys of OnlyOneOf, a Korean kpop group whose entire business model is pretending to be gay, and they made a whole show about idols who had to work together in a what they called a business gay performance to sell records, and wanted us to pretend that it was a real romance. Absolutely insane behavior. The audacity!

Shan 

I can't believe this show happened.

NiNi

I'm sorry! “Is our business gay performance over before it began?” [everyone laughs]

Ben 

Oh my god!

NiNi 

I watched that entire show specifically because they told me that line was in it.

Ben 

She, NiNi was like, Shan and Ben are just cackling. This has to be ridiculous if the two of them have completely lost composure over it. And she was not let down. 

We love the term BGP because it's about the performance of the relationship for consumption. Shan, please announce our winners.

Shan 

This year's BGP award goes to Daou and Offroad, the only potential winners of our hearts.

NiNi 

I have to agree, there wasn't even a question. This was definitely Daou and Offroad’s to lose this year because, sir, the performance is performance-ing.

Ben 

They got a really solid outing with Century of Love despite everything that we now know was happening on that set and around that production. And they have continued to make their music and handle their performances, and they're coming to America this year. That's a huge deal.

Shan 

They have a fan meet in the United States that is already sold out. These boys are making moves.

Ben 

I'm very excited for them. Also up for consideration were Chris Chiu, aka Modi, and Kurt Huang for Unknown the series, because they went way hard on their Taiwanese BGP. Tumblr may not have been paying that much attention to it, but those boys were working very hard. And of course, we're going to acknowledge Yin and War, who got a whole show financed on BGP alone.

NiNi 

That is impressive.

Shan 

Pretty impressive.

Ben 

All right, our final award, our most fun award. We are handing out the Blorbo of the Year Award. This is for the character that took over your brain and you just could not let them go. Every time someone tried to take it from you, you just bit down harder and shook.

Shan 

Ben, would you like to announce the winner?

Ben 

The winner of the Blorbo of the Year award goes to Go Young from Love in the Big City. [air horn] What a great year for us and that character.

NiNi and Shan in unison

He is the moment. [all laugh]

NiNi

Oh my gosh, I can't get it out of my head. You owe me a coke.

Ben 

Yeah, it's gotta be a coke because you guys can't have any more drinks after Friday night. [laughs]

NiNi

Oh my god, no more, no more, no more drinks, no more.

Shan 

Keep it, keep it to soda, non-alcoholic. Nope.

Ben 

Go Young was so important to us. He is one of the most dynamic and complicated queer characters we got to experience this year. I am so thankful that despite all of the drama, we were able to get Nam Yoon Su and friends’ version of these characters. My goodness.

Shan 

I feel unbelievably blessed that they got an actor of Nam Yoon Su’s caliber to play him in the drama. I never in my wildest dreams could have expected that.

NiNi 

And he put his neck, his back, his pussy, and his crack into that.

Shan 

Holy shit. Me and NiNi are kdrama watchers. We have seen him in other work. He transformed himself for this role. It was impressive shit.

Ben 

Our runner up, who we had a great deal of discussion about and who almost won this award until like five minutes before this recording, was Dynamite from Cooking Crush, another complicated queer character with a ton of heart that we deeply loved. I've been thinking about this boy all year.

Shan 

As often is the case when a character you love is misunderstood by others, it makes you love them even more fiercely. That definitely came up with Dynamite.

Ben 

A lot of you don't watch anime, but Twig and I were not gonna let this go unremarked. We wanted to acknowledge Hisashi from Twilight Out of Focus, along with Shion, who was my favorite boy from that show. I love that pink Twig so much! He said, I'm going to high school and I'm gonna get me a motherfucking boyfriend. And he did.

Shan 

The pink twink!

Ben

I love that pink twink so much! He said, I'm going to high school and I'm gonna get me a motherfucking boyfriend. And he did.

Shan

He did. He did it all.

NiNi 

Good job, anime twink. I think there is a missing person here. I can't believe that Ben left this one out considering how he started the year. Aoyanagi Hajime?

Ben 

He's not on my Blorbo list. I think about that boy a lot. But does he take over my whole soul like these boys? He does not.

NiNi 

Mmm, interesting.

Ben 

I admire him deeply, and I think Nachika did a great job with him, but they're getting the sequel, so. It ain't over yet! [laughs]

Shan 

We'll get to talk about him again.

NiNi 

We're gonna talk about them in 2024 and 2025. Fantastic.

Ben 

I'm winning. I might not see Go Young ever again, but I'ma see my boy again this year. A win for me.

NiNi 

Excellent, good job.

Congratulations to the winners of all of our fan awards and our runners-up. These are not VIIBs so you do not get a plate but we will figure out something, I don't know.

Ben 

I'm gonna send you a cup.

Shan 

Souvenir mug!

NiNi

At least it's not a koozie. A koozie is just disrespectful. We discussed this before.

Ben 

I know that if we sent Gap Jakarin a mug that said Best Boy, he would absolutely show it on the IG.

Shan 

He totally would and he’d pose with it!

NiNi 

I believe that. 100% he would totally do it. Maybe, maybe he would even put it next to his bicep.

Shan 

Maybe we should consider sending it.

[Ben laughs]

NiNi 

And I would have a plotz moment. He's large, people, you know how I feel about the large ones.

00:55:49 QL Resolutions

Ben 

It's time for our QL resolutions. Shan has pulled up the record on the things we said we would do for this year. It's time for the call-outs. We'll start with me. 

Shan, proceed.

Shan 

All right, so Ben stated a couple resolutions last year. His kind of not that serious one was he said he will watch 100 shows in 2024. And his second, which he was more serious about, is that he would be backing off of shows when he's getting aggravated with them sooner than he used to and just being more willing to stop watching shows. 

So Ben, you've definitely failed the first goal, but I think you did good on the second one.

Ben 

I did great. I engaged with 75 Asian QLs this year, but I dropped 26.

Shan 

That's big for you. That was a big mental wall that you had to move through this year and you did a great job, bestie.

NiNi 

Four for you again, Glen Coco. Four for you.

[Ben laughs]

Shan 

Are you feeling better now that you started backing off shows you're not liking?

Ben 

Honestly, yeah, I feel way better that I'm recognizing when a show is irritating me and I'm not forcing myself to watch it for this weird sense of ego. Like, “It's really important that I say something about this.” I don't care anymore. Who cares? It sucks. I'm not writing about this. 

The core of what I want to do is, I want to convince uninitiated BL viewers to watch BL. There is no value for me in watching a show that I despise or just isn't working for me, because I'm not using it as a reference to try and get people who might like BL to watch BL. I'm not gonna ask them to watch a mid-tier BL. So it gets dropped.

Shan 

All right, NiNi, in January, 2024, you said your resolution for the year was that you were gonna stop picking on New Siwaj. Let's check in on that, how you feeling?

NiNi 

I definitely had a great time with a New Siwaj show this year and talked about it on the show. These resolutions do have power so you gotta be real careful when you make them. I won't say entirely that I have stopped picking on New Siwaj. I'm still gonna pick on him if he deserves it. But I liked something that he did this year.

Ben 

Don't worry. He definitely deserves it.

Shan 

But you found something nice to say about him this year. You did.

NiNi 

I did find nice things to say about him this year. So I think that I have kept that resolution.

Shan

We did great this year guys, because my resolution from last year was to be more aware of when I'm getting no joy out of a show and cut it off and not feel bad about not finishing it. And I did that this year. I also got better at not starting shows I didn't think I was going to like. And I think that that was a good and healthy choice and I'm glad that I did it because as we've been talking about, the genre just keeps getting bigger. There are so many shows. We can't watch everything and we can't make ourselves miserable trying to force ourselves to watch the things we're not enjoying.

I'm real proud of us. I think we did good on our resolutions this year.

NiNi 

Excellent, good job. So let's look ahead. What are the resolutions that we're all making this year 2025?  

Ben?

Ben 

I have no fucking idea. What should I do?

Shan 

Do you have something about how you wanna write or how you wanna engage on Tumblr?

Ben 

I'm probably going to focus on writing more reviews this year. I stopped doing Stray Thoughts but I don't want to stop writing about things I loved. I think I'm gonna push myself to write more reviews and stuff. I think I'm going to start writing on Tumblr more about Western stuff. I think I'm going to start writing more reviews about more generalized queer work that I'm engaged with. That'll probably be my thing this year, writing more thoughtful pieces about work after it's done instead of yapping about it in real time.

NiNi 

Okay, Shan, how about you? What are you resolving to do this year?

Shan

I was thinking about this a bit. I think there's a couple things on my mind. I want to continue quitting shows if I'm really just getting no joy out of them. I want to continue being more selective about what I start in the first place. Another thing I've been doing more of lately that I think is working for me and that I want to continue is waiting to binge shows that I suspect I will not enjoy very much week to week. For me, it makes a real difference how I watch a show, because if I'm watching weekly and participating in a weekly discussion, I'm going to naturally think more about the show, I'm gonna dig into it more. And when these shows are kind of weak or mediocre, I'm spending an awful lot of time thinking about what isn't working. So, I'm trying to identify those shows where I just can tell I'm gonna have a better time if I get it over with quick instead of stretching it out. 

I also wanna stay committed to continuing to have variety in my media diet. I want to continue to watch things outside of QL, want to be better about continuing to mix in Western shows here and there. If you just watch too much of the same thing all the time, you really lose perspective. So I wanna be attentive to that this year and make sure I'm changing it up.

Ben 

You heard it here, friends. Shan is joining me in watching over 200 movies a year!

NiNi 

I'm not sure that's exactly what she said, bestie. [laughs]

Ben 

She said she wants to mix it up! I got a great Indonesian film for you to watch.

Shan

I will say this. This is my big gap. I just don't watch many movies. I like long-form stories. 

Ben

Mm-mm. I’m challenging you, Shan. It's not like I hate movies. You’re gonna watch some movies with me, Shan. I watched a great Chinese film from 2015 last night! 

Shan

Ben’s resolution is to force Shan to watch movies. I don’t hate movies. They just don't fill my soul the same way, you know? They're just here and gone so quick.

NiNi 

Yeah, if I really love something, I definitely need to sit in it for a while. So I am definitely more on the long-form storytelling side of things, as well.

Ben 

A great film just stays with you forever. All right, we're starting with Ghost Dog.

Shan

All right, you can make your list. NiNi, what’s yours?

NiNi

My resolution this year is to finally watch some of the shit I have been meaning to watch. My watch lists keep growing and growing and growing and I need to put some time and effort into actually watching some of this shit. Some of it because Ben is going to stop talking to me if I don't watch it. And we can't have that.

Ben 

It's true! I'm glad you recognized that that is a real outcome!

NiNi 

There's definitely some things that are on the list I gotta get past. I think I've finally gotten past the uncanny valley effect so that I can watch Light On Me. And I'm gonna watch Eternal Yesterday. Finally, I am gonna watch Rainbow Prince.

Shan 

I forgot you haven't watched Eternal Yesterday?! 

Ben

I haven’t!

Shan

Oh my god.

NiNi 

To be fair to me, I do not think that is the thing for me to have watched when I was in the mental state that I was in for most of last year.

Shan 

It's very true. You need to wait for the right moment, but I'm excited for you to watch it.

NiNi 

I am looking forward now that I'm feeling mentally better to getting into some of the things that I have meant to watch, but just not been able to hit play on. Like I said, these resolutions have power, so It's definitely happening this year.

Ben 

I'm excited. My resolution is to torment Shan into watching movies. That's great. I feel good about this one.

Shan 

He's getting revenge because I have forced him to like kdramas and he's mad.

NiNi 

You have gotten Ben to watch kdramas, cdramas.

Ben 

I have watched Goblin, I watched The Rebel Princess. What else did you fucking force me to watch? School 2013. That is like 6,000 hours of TV. You owe me a few movies.

Shan

I sure did! School 2013. He's starting Healer again. Listen, the truth is that Ben likes the kdramas. He hates that he likes them, but he likes them.

Ben

They're just so fucking long. I just spent two hours on a fucking episode of a kdrama. I could have watched one of my fucking movies during this time.

NiNi 

Speaking of movies, y’all have got to watch Paradise of Thorns as soon as you're able.

Shan 

As soon as it's out.

Ben 

I believe it becomes available very soon after we finish recording this.

Shan 

Yeah, I'm excited to watch that one. And I still need to watch How to Make Millions When Grandma Dies. 

NiNi 

Have you not watched that yet?

Shan

No, it was only on New York screens for like a few days and I didn't make it during.

Ben 

We have literally not had access in the US, girl! Like this, it's one of those things where like I've been intentionally waiting because we know it's coming to American distro.

NiNi

It's on that Oscar shortlist, so it's definitely coming.

Shan

Yeah, we need it. It's gonna come for sure. It'll be in theaters and I'll go watch it.

01:04:45 - Affirmations and Hopes for the Future

Ben 

Okay, affirmations for the year. Things that we really liked that we would like to see more of. Number one, Kongthup Productions. Good job this year, guys.

Shan

We love them.

NiNi 

We do. This is the studio that produced Knock Knock Boys!, Monster Next Door. There was a GL. 

Ben 

Apple My Love.

NiNi

Apple My Love, yeah.

Ben 

They have been a really fun breath of fresh air in the genre this year, and I really hope that whoever is having fun funding them is getting returns so that they can keep doing that.

Shan 

They are out here producing original scripts that are interesting and that have things to say.

Ben 

Next, despite how much I deeply despised My Love Mix Up Thailand, I would like to continue to see more of these cross-country collaborations. There were a lot of interesting results we got from that this year. We got Unknown the series out of it. We got Love in the Air: Koi No Yokan. 

Shan

I loved it.

Ben 

We got Cherry Magic Thailand. And we got a couple of interesting projects where it was kind of funded in both places. Like Eccentric Romance, Meet You at the Blossom, Battle of the Writers. There may have been Chinese money involved in that one.

NiNi

There definitely was.

Ben 

It's very interesting seeing these sort of cross-cultural collaborations. And even within the countries, Oxin Films and, what is the other group's name? They teamed up and made Haunted Hearts. It wasn't good, but they worked with someone else.

Shan 

I'm interested in these productions adapting works from other countries in these kind of joint funding models. Love in the Air Koi was great because the MeMindY team was deeply involved in that production and there was a lot of cross marketing. They had actors from the original Love in the Air Thailand cameo on the Japanese show. It was cool to see that kind of cooperation going on.

Ben 

Lastly, and we say this every year, more GLs. There needs to be way more lesbians in this genre than there are.

Shan 

And we need to give them good stories.

NiNi 

And even though there was a ramp up this year, because there was actually quite a bit of GL this year, I can't point to one GL that I saw or was truly that interested in this year that really hooked me.

Ben 

She Loves to Cook happened this year.

NiNi 

I mean, yes, yes, okay. She Loves to Cook, She Loves to Eat, but that goes in the category, the same category as What Did You Eat Yesterday? It's eternal, it's everlasting.

Ben

I'm sorry, you didn't think Chaser Game W changed the face of the game?

NiNi

No.

Shan 

There were a lot of GLs this year, but most of them had, like, really terrible writing. What's wild to me, and this has been a really interesting thing that we've started seeing in the recent months. These shows, even when they're not very good in terms of the quality of the story, they're really popular because the fans are so thirsty for this content. The QL viewership wants GL and these studios need to put some real resources behind making these shows and making them good because there is a lot of potential there.

NiNi

I think GL's kind of following the trajectory that BL followed, which is a shame because BL sort of set the trajectory already, so they could have shortcutted all of that.

Shan 

Can we not just skip to the good content part?

Ben

Well, they did try to make GL SOTUS, so hang in there, girls. [everyone laughs]

That's going to end it for us. We will see you all in the coming weeks as we make our way through the VIIB Awards. I'm very excited.

NiNi 

And a little super special little treat for you before we get to the VIIBs, which I will not spoil but it's gonna be fun. 

That is going to wrap us up on our Year In Review. Oh my god guys, another year. This is our third Year In Review.

Ben 

My goodness.

NiNi 

Absolutely wild. This is our 50-something episode. We're getting up to 60. We're about to be retirees up in here. We love it. 

See you guys next time, we out. Say bye to the people, Shan.

Shan 

Bye people!

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

[the-conversation-pod]

Hallyu: Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo and Love in the Big City

AND WE'RE BACK!

Come join Ben, NiNi, and Shan as we talk about two of our favorite three Korean projects of the year. First we discuss Hwang Da Seul delivering a masterpiece in breaking up and bringing back a couple in Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo, and then we unpack all of the complexities in the relationships of Go Yeong in Love in the Big City.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction: Let's Talk Hallyu 00:06:01 - Let Free The Curse of Taekwondo 00:12:36 - Taekwondo: Themes and Patterns In Hwang Da Seul's Work 00:21:54 - Taekwondo: The Separation 00:33:28 - Taekwondo: The Reunion 00:38:22 - Taekwondo: On Hyeon Ho 00:44:57 - Taekwondo: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:52:33 - Love In The Big City 00:58:46 - Love In The Big City Part 1: Mi Ae and the Film Adaptation 01:06:50 - Love In The Big City Part 2: Umma and Young Soo 01:17:05 - Love In The Big City Part 3: Gyu Ho and Kylie 01:28:31 - Love In The Big City Part 4: Habibi and the T-aras 01:40:28 - Love In The Big City: Final Thoughts and Ratings 01:48:25 - Outro

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00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Introduction: Let's Talk Hallyu

Ben 

And we're back. This time we're in for a winners only discussion. We will be discussing two Korean projects that we all loved: Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo by the Hwang Da Seul team, and the drama adaptation of Love in the Big City—screenwritten by the author Sang Young Park.

We have brought Shan back with us. Shan, say hello.

Shan 

Hello!

Ben 

We want to discuss the Hallyu Wave, what that means and how we feel about it. 

Shan, why don't you walk us through the last couple of decades of what Korea's been up to with their media?

Shan 

Essentially, when we talk about the Hallyu Wave, what we're referencing is a very intentional plan by the Korean government in the wake of the 1997 financial crisis to start exporting their culture as a means of improving their economy, getting the rest of the world to see Korea as a place where they wanna spend their dollars. And so starting in the late 90s, they started very intentionally exporting music, drama, film—a very intentional inviting in of the international audience for Korean media—that really picked up steam in the early 2000s and accelerated pretty steadily into the early 2020s. With the pandemic, Korean media kind of globally exploded and they started dominating the global conversation on media. So that was through music, through very popular Korean pop groups that everybody now knows and also through dramas. In 2019, Netflix started producing Korean dramas and hosting them on their platform, bringing that content to new audiences. 

And then on the heels of that, we started to get Korean BL entering the BL space later than some of the other countries like Japan and Thailand, who had already been in the game for a while. Korea kind of showed up on the stage during those early pandemic years and started producing QL. It wasn't the very first QL they had ever produced—there are queer films and queer dramas from Korea earlier on—but that is when Korean BL as it exists in its current state really picked up, and it is definitely part of that explosion of the Hallyu Wave.

NiNi 

I kinda came in on in that real wave because my first kdrama I watched in 2019, and it was Pretty Noona Who Buys Me Food. That's the first ever kdrama I watched and I was hooked. I am not a kpop girl, but I'm most definitely a kdrama girl and I am most definitely a Korean QL girl for sure.

Shan 

One of the reasons that kdrama is so appealing, I think, to a Western audience as well as to their home audience is because the Korean stories really respect romance. They prioritize it in a way that we don't get in Western media. It’s serving a slice of the Western audience that the West has kind of let go of and has diminished and belittled. For people who love romance, for people who love romantic comedies and romantic melodramas, you can't top Korean content. It's not surprising that on the heels of huge success of their exporting of heterosexual romance media, they started getting into the BL game.

Ben 

Do you both remember the early kdramas you watched that really hooked you into it?

Shan 

I didn't start consistently watching kdrama as my main venue for het media until around the same time as you, NiNi, about 2019. But before that, I had seen them here and there. I think Coffee Prince might have actually been my first kdrama, which, wow, what a way to start. Good for you, Shan. And then when I came in in 2019 it just became easier to access these shows, like everything was going up on Netflix, Viki became bigger, it was hosting more things. That's when I started going really deep and I went back and watched a lot of dramas that predated that.

Ben 

So when we're talking about Korean projects, we're engaging from the perspective of Korea really wanted us to engage with this. And so we want to engage as earnestly as we can with it. These two shows stand out for us because Hwang Da Seul has made it abundantly clear that she cares a lot about telling queer stories well in her interviews and in the work she does. And based upon our interactions with Anton Hur, who translated Love in the Big City, we feel very strongly that they also wanted us to experience this too. 

So with that in mind, get your snacks, get your drinks. We gonna be here for a while.

00:06:01 - Let Free The Curse of Taekwondo

Ben

NiNi, let's get going on Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo.

NiNi 

Once again, you keep asking me to jump into the things I don't know nothing about. How about you tell us what Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo is about?

Ben Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo is a Korean BL from the Hwang Da Seul team. This is, I think, her second or third full original project.

Shan 

Hwang Da Seul has made several projects in BL, either as just a director or as a screenwriter and director. She began in 2020 with Where Your Eyes Linger. She wrote and directed that as a short film that was also cut as a show. From there, she directed, but did not write To My Star, then directed but did not write Blueming, then directed but did not write To My Star 2. And then she came back as a writer and director on Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo.

That's her resume within the BL space. She has only actually written two of these works, but there are very similar themes across all of them. She clearly brings a strong point of view.

Ben 

You have a really good read on one of the themes she really loves and I want to get to that. Let's start with the basics. Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo is about the teenage and then second chance romance between…

NiNi 

Lee Dohoe and Shin Juyoung, can't forget it ever.

Ben 

Thank you. Shin Juyoung is sent to the Korean countryside to straighten him out, literally, by having him get his ass beat every single day by his taekwondo teacher. While there, he ends up bonding with the teacher's son, who is a star student and very much a standoffish type. Their relationship develops but is then severed by horrible consequences of police being involved because they kept beating the shit out of our boy. The two separate for 12 years—a brutal amount of time—before running into each other again in the same neighborhood and having to unpack this huge mess between them.

There's a lot to unpack in this show, so I think we will go through this piece by piece. Shan, walk us through the first half of the show with their relationship as teenagers.

Shan 

God, this show. I'm going to get emotional just thinking about it. So this is kind of a classic second chance romance. And the first half of the show is about the first chance when they first met, the first iteration of their relationship that inevitably ended horribly. We had Juyoung who was coming to the town basically because he was banished from his own family. His parents were aware that he is queer. He's been sent here, basically handed over to Dohoe's father who runs the dojo to, as Ben said, get straightened out—to have the gay beat out of him, essentially. He, though, is a very optimistic person. That's just who he is at his core. So despite this horrific backstory and the trauma that he must have experienced, he presents this very sunny face to the world, which is not fake. It's not a facade. It's just, he's a very optimistic person at heart. 

He meets Dohoe, who is a very serious kid, who has grown up with this abusive father, who is like many abused and lower class children, trying to earn his way out of this horrible life circumstance that he's in by performing well academically. He wants to get into college. He wants to make something of himself. He wants to leave his father and this town behind. And he wants to do that by acing tests, by getting into a good school and by getting a degree that he can use to make money and support himself.

So these two meet, they initially have a lot of antagonism. Dohoe is a bit threatened by Juyoung when he comes into the dojo, but they also have a really clear spark together. Juyoung is immediately fascinated by Dohoe and wants to get close to him. Juyoung's persistent optimism eventually breaks through, they bond and they start seeing each other in a way that kind of surprised me. We were all pretty impressed, happy, amazed that they actually got into their relationship pretty quickly once they realized that their feelings were mutual. They started looking for places to spend time alone together to make out and do horny teenage boy stuff. They were sneaking around town knowing that this was not actually going to be acceptable to anybody and they always had to be on alert for Dohoe's father.

Juyoung is really trying to support Dohoe through his academic studies because he understands how important it is to him to get into college. And because of that, Juyoung is hiding things from him about what his father is doing. The thing that the show did really beautifully was that they showed that Dohoe wasn't actually oblivious to the things that his father was doing to Juyoung. He just didn't want to deal with them. He didn't know how to deal with them. It's kind of heartbreaking. They were grabbing these moments of happiness together, but always, always knowing how fragile it was and always on guard for something to go wrong. 

And then of course it did. It all converged with Juyoung getting beat by Dohoe's father on the day that Dohoe had to take a very important test. Dohoe seeing the altercation going down and deciding to do something about it, getting distracted, failing his test. And then, you know, the police who were supposed to come and intervene to protect Juyoung, of course, siding with the abuser and not protecting him at all. 

That's how their teenage relationship ended. Dohoe disappeared. And then they were separated for quite a long time.

Ben 

Complications in the teeny-bop section of this come from another boy named Hyunho, who was at one time a student of the dojo, and he and Dohoe were clearly vibing at some point before both of them backed off of it. Hyunho ends up clearly jealous about Juyoung and Dohoe. This is something I really want to return to when we start talking about Hwang De Seul's themes.

00:12:36 - Taekwondo: Themes and Patterns In Hwang Da Seul's Work

Ben

As I'm listening to you go back through the details of what happened in the youth section, it strikes me that at no point in Hwang De Seul's work does any character have an awakening moment. It's really fascinating how often her characters seem to be aware of this thing about them, and they're having to deal with the reality of someone else knowing about that and what it might mean to pursue that. I think that's why I connected so deeply with both of these characters. The uncertainty that exists between them is about is he actually vibing with me or not? And if so, what do I do with that? Not what is this in me? It's nice to watch work from someone who understands that that's how it is for a lot of us. We are not oblivious to what we've been feeling the whole time.

NiNi 

Hwang Da Seul definitely deals in The Knowing. That's the lane that she's playing in with her characters. It's all about the knowing. It's never about the finding out.

Ben 

She is the queen of the knowing. Every time she shows up, I'm like, who's about to be on my list, girl? Show me the new boys.

Shan 

That's right. 

NiNi 

Hahaha!

Shan

One, like, line or scene that I remember in this show that really lamp shaded this that I loved was when Dohoe asks Juyoung if he was his first kiss and his first love. And Juyoung was like, “Are you fucking kidding? Look at me. Of course I had already kissed people before I met you. Of course I had already had relationships before I met you.” I just love that this is not about a discovery of queerness. This is not about the very first time of having feelings. It's about the first time having feelings this deep in an impossible situation. That's more what she's interested in.

Ben 

NiNi, as our resident vibes expert, why don't you take us through your highlight scenes that captured that for you in the youth section?

NiNi

Before I get into the specific scenes I gotta just talk about Hwang Da Seul and the things that she does in general. Hwang Da Seul, she's not just the queen of the knowing, she's the queen of depression romance because the other thing that she likes to do is to get a character who is hard to love and give them somebody who can only love them. I keep thinking about how Dohoe treats Juyoung both in the teenage section and when they come back together in the adult section. Dohoe is just really standoffish, he's very arms length, not talking about anything, And then how basically the relentlessness of Juyoung's positivity, of his attention, breaks through every single time. As somebody who suffers from depression it feels very healing to see characters who have the patience to shove through something that you are trying to work through but in some ways can't control.

Ben 

All right, so let's talk about the snow scene.

NiNi 

That's definitely part of that for sure. Because let me tell you, if somebody made me snow, it would be a wrap. Ring!

Shan 

It's done. It's over. 

Here’s a thing that I love about Hwang Da Seul is that her work in the QL space is very referential to the mainstream kdrama space and to its tropes. She's clearly based in Korean media. So if you know kdrama romance tropes, they are everywhere in her works.

Shan 

And the snow is a great example of that. There is no greater signal of true love in kdrama than kissing in the first snow. [NiNi laughs] What's great about this one is Juyoung made the snow to make it happen.

NiNi 

I can't stop thinking about it.

Ben 

I'm getting fucking goosebumps right now thinking about it right now. That boy is everything to me!

Shan 

What a man.

NiNi 

The way I came into the chat screaming I was just like, “He made him snow,” I was like sobbing.

Shan 

It was really beautiful. The part that really feels consistent across the show is how much Juyoung saw Dohoe needed him and just found ways to show up for him even when it was hard.

NiNi 

Sorry, I'm very emotional about the show. I can't get over it. I thought that I had gotten past my initial reactions, but now talking about it again, I feel all the exact same things. It's amazing how it just came back just like that.

Ben 

Something fun: Hwang Da Seul has made enough work now that she can make references to her own work and make fun of it. [NiNi laughs]

Shan 

Yes! My god! It was so good!

NiNi 

Outside, trying to find a place to kiss and then saying, “Who would kiss at an underpass? [Ben laughs] I’m like, let me tell you who would kiss at an underpass.

Shan 

We know exactly who would do it.

Ben 

How about you dare not disrespect your seniors like that? [Everyone laughs]

Shan 

I love everything about that whole sequence because it was so real. Like two horny teenage boys, they really want to make out, but they know they're not safe to do it at home. So they're just wandering around outside. Like, where can we sit and make out where we won't be seen, where we won't be disturbed? 

Who hasn't been there as a teenager? It was such a good moment.

Ben 

Now for something really emotional. When Juyoung removed that cross from around his neck and then confessed his feelings to Dohoe through the fucking wall.

Shan 

With his forehead on the confessional wall.

Ben

Every lapsed Catholic on Tumblr was activated at once, found each other on the same post, held each other by the shoulders, and screamed.

NiNi

I felt that deep in my soul, I was just like, no he didn't, no he didn't. He's taking it off, he's taking it off. What is he gonna say? He's taking it off, oh my God. And then he put his head against the wall and I was like, no, I can't do this. I actually cannot do this.

Ben 

When he put his head on that wall and treated it like a confessional, I was like, somewhere Oscar Wilde is shaking about how love is a sacrament that should be taken on the knees.

Shan 

Oh my God. It was so good. There were so many little moments like that. And there's no monologue where Juyoung talks about his mother's faith and what it means to him. This is not that kind of show where they're gonna look into the camera and tell you what things mean and explain the themes. You really have to pay attention. You have to be present in this story to notice the things that are happening and what they mean. It's such an immersive drama experience.

NiNi

I feel like it's equal parts immersive and voyeuristic, because they're parts of it that feel like you are in there with them, and there’s parts of it that feel almost like you shouldn't be watching, like their first kiss in the van.

Shan 

It feels very intimate.

Ben 

Hwang Da Seul is really good at making emotional intimacy come through without asking her actors to make softcore porn with her.

NiNi 

This is not to say that we do not enjoy the softcore—

Shan 

—We do enjoy the softcore. Please do keep making it.

Ben 

—Make sure that makes the edit! Don't stop doing that too. Just make sure that you get the emotions right.

Shan

Get the emotions right.

NiNi 

The other thing that Hwang Da Seul likes to do is she likes to film in winter and I think that's one of the differences that we've often discussed between Chinese, Japanese, and Korean BL, and Southeast Asian BL. That difference between the intimacy of cold weather, the moodiness of winter, and what you get in terms of mood coming out of places that are hot and tropical. It's not that the angst isn't there if it's tropical. It's not that the moodiness can't be there if it's tropical. But there's a different sort of melancholy that comes with the winter stuff. And Hwang Da Seul really likes to sink into that stuff.

Shan 

She likes to put her characters in these really, cold, dark scenes, situations, settings, and then she likes to allow them to find the warmth and find the light together. That is the narrative that she's always pursuing.

NiNi

You mentioned that she both wrote and directed Where Your Eyes Linger and this. This feels like an escalation and evolution from Where Your Eyes Linger. Where Your Eyes Linger was actually one of my first QLs. So this is kind of a full circle moment for me.

Shan 

It was my very first QL. I was intro'd to BL by Hwang Da Seul.

00:21:54 - Taekwondo: The Separation

Ben 

So after going through all of this and making us really believe in the youth romance between these boys, Hwang Da Seul did her favorite thing. She broke these boys up for an unreasonable amount of time.

Shan 

Unreasonable. [NiNi laughs] When that chyron came up and we realized it was a 12 year time skip, my—

Ben 

We're calling the Koreans. Can y'all verify this?

Shan 

—My heart sunk into my stomach. I was like, not 12 fucking years. That's horrific.

Ben 

I want you to know that Twig and I are not well. That chyron said 12 years and I DM'd her and I was like, 12 years? Hell yeah, girl. She was like, it's about to be a mess.

Shan 

You are not well. We knew that.

Ben 

You've talked about this before, Shan, that she really likes to take audiences well beyond the acceptable point with the separation. So Juyoung ends up separated from Dohoe and is unable to reconnect with him. For the next 12 years, he seems kind of lost. Like, he ends up not really pursuing much for himself in an aspirational way. He ends up working in someone else's taekwondo dojo. He ends up continuing to maintain a relationship with Dohoe's father and was offered the dojo from him before he passes away. 

There's a lot here in the separation that was really difficult to sort of absorb. Not only was there this gap where Dohoe and he weren't seeing each other at all, I felt a whole lot of angst and stress about Juyoung having a relationship with the man who beat him like a drum. 

Shan

Mhmm.

Ben

I knew that when Lee Dohoe rejoined the narrative, it would be a huge pain point between them.

I want to go to NiNi first this time because this is probably the most emotionally difficult section of it. And we hadn't had a chance to talk too much about this section while you were watching. I want you to unpack how you felt during this period and what sort of threads you were most holding onto.

NiNi 

Man, watching Juyoung just sort of shuffle through life just kind of sleepwalk through it. The first time we see him at the end of that 12 year break, he does not look well. He just looks like all the life and optimism have gone out of him. For somebody who was such a sunshine in the teenage section, who was so focused and dedicated and smiley and happy and just a ball of energy, to watch him just sort of sloughing away. It was heartbreaking. You could see the pain that he was holding in and the whole thing where he's maintaining contact with Dohoe's father it's in the hope that at some point he will get some news about Dohoe. He just has not left this behind. He has not moved on from anything that happened. He is completely stuck in place, can't move forward. 

Meanwhile Dohoe has basically run away run as fast and as far as he could get but as fast and as far as far as he could get ended up being in Shin Juyoung's hometown, close to a place that he remembered as making him happy. Because there was this whole sequence in the teenage years where they basically ran away from home for a day. They went to Shin Juyoung's old hometown and they couldn’t find anywhere to sleep because no hotels would take them because they were minors, and they couldn't stay in the sauna overnight. And so they basically snuck into some kind of school building or whatever and slept on some seats. But it was such a moment that belonged to them and it was such a happy moment for both of them having that experience together. That happy moment is what Dohoe is drawn to and how he ends up being drawn back into Juyoung's orbit. He goes to his old neighborhood in some way, I think, knowing that at some point he's going to run into Shin Juyoung, even as he's avoiding it.

Ben 

Shan, you're the most powerful hater I know. 

Shan

Mhmm.

Ben

You are very specific in your gripes when people hurt one another in dramas.

Shan

Sure am.

Ben

Go in and let have.

Shan 

First of all, I really like the very complex decision to have Juyoung stay close to Dohoe's father. The way that this all fell apart is that Juyoung had an altercation with Dohoe's father that ended up interrupting Dohoe's exam. It is the reason Dohoe failed, lost his chance to go to college in the way that he intended to. Juyoung has a lot of guilt about that situation. And he also, as NiNi said, is kind of emotionally stuck in that moment where everything went sideways. So not only does he not leave, not only does he try to maintain some connection with the places and the people that he had when he was with Dohoe, not only does he keep trying to find Dohoe, he maintains a very close relationship and even grows much closer to Dohoe's father in his absence and takes care of him and acts the part of the filial son in a way that Dohoe is no longer doing. 

That's a really interesting choice I think is in part very much driven by his guilt that he has for messing up Dohoe's life. I think he is in a way trying to do penance for his role in what went wrong. But for Dohoe, that choice looks hurtful and absurd, that Juyoung would stay and take care of his abuser and be filial to the man who Dohoe has been afraid of and running from for his entire life. Dohoe has a lot of valid anger, I think, about Juyoung making that choice. 

At the same time, Dohoe really was cruel in the way that he ghosted Juyoung. And he was certainly cruel when he met him again 12 years later. It's something that you really have to give some time and space to think about, like, what is motivating him here? Because again, this is not a show that looks into the camera and tells you everything the characters are thinking. Why, when he saw Juyoung again, was he so mean to him, so belittling? He used Hyunho against him to imply things about their relationship that were not true just to hurt Juyoung. He put on this front, pretending to be this very successful, haughty guy who didn't care about Juyoung, who hadn't thought about him in years. He made some really cruel choices, but you can kind of understand why he feels so complicated about Juyoung. Juyoung is tied to all of these horrible things that he has tried to move beyond, that he is trying to let go of. He wants to get free of this curse on his life that is his father, and Juyoung is so wrapped up in those things. 

When we talk about Hwang Da Seul’s patterns, this is a pattern that she has across her shows. She likes to take a character to the limits, really push on how cruel she will let them behave in the name of whatever psychological shit they're dealing with and try to find a way to redeem them. What really worked with the way that she set up this conflict with Dohoe and Juyoung is that even though it was really hard to watch him be awful to Juyoung, a character that we all feel protective of, you could really understand why he was feeling that way, why he was acting that way. We knew enough about Dohoe. We saw enough of what he experienced to be able to extend that empathy to him and forgive him for the way that he was behaving just as Juyoung did. I thought that was just so well done in this show in a way that frankly it has not been in her previous attempts at this dynamic.

Ben 

Ha!As a regular defender of Hwang Da Seul’s wrong boys—

NiNi

Mmhmm. Mmhmm. I'm not even gonna, I'm letting that go. 

Shan 

Listen, we've talked about this. Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo is the culmination of everything that Hwang Da Seul has been trying to do across all these different shows. And she finally got it exactly right.

NiNi

I don't disagree but I also don't 100% agree. 

One of the things that I want to talk about that we haven't really delved into, we haven't delved into the violence as a motivating factor for why Dohoe was so cruel to Juyoung when he ghosted him, and when he's coming back to him. Because of Dohoe's experience with his father, Dohoe abhors violence. There is a scene where after he realizes that Juyoung has been sent away because of the fight he goes into the kitchen and he picks up a knife, and he gets really close to honestly stabbing his father and he looks at his reflection and he's horrified by what he sees there, because he has defined himself and everything that he's trying to do by being the opposite of his father—by refusing violence. He won't even do taekwondo anymore because he has decided against violence so deeply. And so to see that connection between his father and himself, to see that the violence could also be in him too, and that the violence and the rage could come from the way that he cares about Juyoung, freaked him the fuck out. 

That's a big chunk of why he ran away and why when he does come back, he's so cruel because he's terrified of that part of himself. And so the whole thing where Juyoung is now close to his father, there's another layer to that now of, I have removed myself from this situation because I was afraid of who I would become, and here you are not having that problem.

Ben 

I think about what was different on the day that Dohoe called the police, and I think the difference is that I think Juyoung fought back that day. I think there's a difference between accepting the beating and fighting back, and what Dohoe was afraid would happen once they both started fighting and it wasn't just beating him.

Shan 

Yeah. A really good layer there is that Dohoe knew all along that his father was beating up Juyoung. There were a lot of moments where we would see Dohoe notice bruises on Juyoung and look away from them and not ask the question. He has definitely seen them and he just kept his mouth shut. But on that day, he saw something that scared him. I think Ben is right, he saw Juyoung fighting back and he really worried about what the consequences of that could be. And that is why he finally intervened.

00:33:28 - Taekwondo: The Reunion

Ben 

Let's talk about the second chance! Shan, as somebody who has been a Hwang Da Seul critic in terms of how she's handled the reconciliation between couples when they break, I would like you to walk us through this one and why this one worked for you.

Shan 

I think what worked so well in this is that we were given enough of Dohoe's experiences and his background to understand where he was coming from, even without it being very explicitly spelled out. We were able to watch the whole process of him putting up this front for Juyoung, pushing him away, finally breaking down, admitting the truth of what his life had become, the truth of how he felt. We got to see them really take time on fighting through all of that. And then really importantly, we got to see them work together to figure out how to repair their relationship and to build a new life for themselves that worked for them and to see how it worked. We got to see that whole journey for them. We got to see Dohoe admit and explain why he had been behaving the way that he was, what he was afraid of. We got to see him own the things that he had done wrong or that he had been hiding and be honest with Juyoung and really drop his shield, and also be the one to reach out and start making some amends. 

Some of these aspects were missing in other shows, which is why I criticized them. Here, we see the whole arc of that. We got to really believe in their new start and why it works. I did not end this drama feeling like they're gonna have this problem again. I felt like they really moved past these childhood traumas that had been weighing them down and found a way forward together. And we got to see them experiencing not just a happy epilogue of cutesy moments, but an epilogue where they lived life day to day together and they had disappointments and they realized some things weren't going to work the way they thought. And they worked through that and they found a new way to be content. And so I really left the show feeling like I got to see Dohoe heal in a way that made me think he was gonna be okay fully.

NiNi

The flip side of that is that you got to see Juyoung get angry and really push about what had happened. They had a little bit of a false start reunion in the middle, things seem like they're going okay, but Juyoung wants to unpack what happened so that it doesn't happen again. And Dohoe is resistant to that because he's still hiding so many things. So part of the reason that all of that works is because like you said, there is the discussion, there is the amends, there is the coming clean, there is the fighting through it that you get to see. Like, Dohoe goes to jail!

Shan 

Yes!

Ben 

That man went to jail and got out of jail so fast! [laughs]

Shan 

I wanna go back to what NiNi said, because one of the things I love the most in this show is that in this adult reconciliation arc, they have the big dramatic reunion moment, they have sex, and it doesn't fix fucking anything. We got to see them have the initial reunion euphoria and then realize they still had to deal with all their shit and then watch them deal with it. It was fucking awesome. This is what I want from a drama about a relationship.

Ben 

Their particular sex scene is probably one of my favorites of the year. Because they intercut the current sex scene with a sex scene we didn't get before, when they were kids. And I really like the framing of it because the youth one is as furtive and uncertain, but excited about it as two young people are going to be when they're getting away with something that's really important to them and they're happy about it, but it didn't fix the issues that were gonna show up then and the sex they're having doesn't fix their issues now. And it was interesting seeing them have sex as adults where they know their bodies a lot more, but the emotions are just so off in that moment. It was so clever to mirror that moment with a moment we hadn't seen where their emotions were better aligned. There's more activity in the adult section, but the emotions are more enjoyable in the youth section. That was such an excellent choice.

NiNi 

I Promised You the Moon, episode 3. It's the same thing.

The use of the cross-cutting technique to show you two things being true while they're doing the same activity.

00:38:22 - Taekwondo: On Hyunho

Ben 

I loved the use of Hyunho in this show because he lets us know that Dohoe knows exactly who the fuck he is at both stages of the show, and that he is a shit to everyone that he interacts with when it comes to his queerness and all of the issues that he's hanging on. Hyunho is not blameless in this, he ends up bullying Doheo. And that has to be resolved. He's hanging around Dohoe, trying to make amends for what happened between them. And Dohoe is not giving this man what he wants. This man is desperate. He wants Dohoe to fuck him so bad it makes him look stupid. And Dohoe will not give it to him. This role that Hyunho has about how he probably should have had a shot in here at some point, but can't, works so well. Particularly because that character is given closure in the story as well. 

Hwang De Seul is really good at dealing with the trauma of someone ghosting you when you were really important to them and they were important to you. One of things I love about her work is that she doesn't think it's wrong for characters to break up. But she does think it's wrong for characters to not communicate properly with the other person. That person needs to be given the closure. They need to be given permission to mourn the end of something that was important to them. But by denying the other party the closure they need, neither of you is allowed to move on and it becomes this festering wound that both of you are forced to carry. I think that's probably why I've enjoyed her work so much. Because, for a lot of us, queerness complicates how you can handle many of these relationships. In some cases with guys I've cared a lot about life just snatched us from each other and we never got to conclude anything that we were going through and I'm just required to keep living after that. 

I really like how very clear it is in this that Dohoe's primary mistake he makes with all three of the men he has relationships with in this is that he never gave himself or them closure about anything that happened between them. That's why none of them can heal and none of them can get well until he's able to give that to at least two of them.

Shan 

I have to say, as someone who is usually a second lead hater, I really like Hyunho. When I say second lead, that's a reference to a very common character archetype in kdrama. Every kdrama romance, just about, has a second lead character who is the person who is vying for the protagonist's romantic attention, not necessarily in a love triangle way because it's often not actually a triangle. It's often that the second lead is just holding a one-sided candle, which is definitely the case for Hyunho. 

His inclusion in the story complicated things in a really nice way in the teenage years. He was there as a signal that Dohoe already knew himself. Hyunho was struggling with his own internalized homophobia in high school and so was really awful to Dohoe. And then as an adult, he really tried to make that up to him by doing what he thought was the right thing in helping Dohoe to run away from his trauma and helping him to build this new life, which turned out to be fraudulent. By helping him to perpetuate the fraud, by helping him to keep his secrets, by helping him to cover up his lies. He thought—incorrectly—that being Dohoe's conspirator in that way was going to bring them closer and going to make him the person who knew Dohoe best. And I really felt a lot of sympathy for him in the end, because it's not his fault that he didn't actually know Dohoe and didn't know that that wasn’t what was good for him. 

Dohoe never let him know him. He never let Hyunho really know him in the way that he let Juyoung. And so Hyunho didn't realize that the things he was doing because he thought they were what Dohoe wanted and needed were actually the things that were weighing Dohoe down. It wasn't his fault that he had it wrong and that he couldn't understand Dohoe in the way that Juyoung did. And it wasn't his fault that Dohoe used him quite knowingly as a lifeline, as a way to protect himself, as a way to dig at Juyoung. That was very wrong of Dohoe to use him and his feelings for him that way. And to Dohoe's credit, he realized that in the end and he apologized. That was one of my favorite scenes in the show, was Dohoe really owning that he had not done Hyunho right and that his behavior toward him was not okay. And apologizing for that to the point where they could move past it and become genuine friends. 

I really loved that arc and I really ended up respecting Hyunho. I respected that he still got his moment to share his feelings honestly and ask the question, why it wasn't him, and to take a moment to understand that and to mourn what he thought he could have had with Dohoe. It's so sad to think about him hanging on to this for so long—12 years of this separation, Hyunho was there as Dohoe's friend waiting for his moment that never came. 

Because of the way that it was presented and the way that he handled himself, I didn't end up thinking anything negative about him for that. I just felt sympathy for the situation he was in and I was happy for him that he was able to finally be free of it.

Ben 

I'm glad he was let go because the fundamental reason why Dohoe can never let him smash is that Hyunho lives an existence that is inherently closeted, and Dohoe doesn't want that. And he doesn't know how to say that properly to Hyunho. I'm very glad that there was a very gentle release of that for Hyunho. I really hope that Hyunho is able to reckon with the way his help of Dohoe inherently closeted him, trapping them in a lie that both of them are holding together. And I really hope that Hyunho is able to find his own ability to have a relationship that doesn't require him to hide so much all the time.

00:44:57 - Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

Let's talk about that child!

NiNi 

Why would you say it like that? [Ben laughs]

Shan 

I think you're right though, Ben, to call this out as another one of the common themes that she revisits. There's a tiny child and they help to bridge the gap in the separated couple. In this show, we got Gwangmo.

Ben 

Gwangmo represents for them this cycle that they're stuck in that they would like to see broken. I really love that they're able to do that for that kid, but in a way that further sets them back personally and professionally. The world can be made better by brave people putting themselves on the line. And a lot of the people who are first, they're going to get slapped down for it.

Dohoe can't remain a teacher because he's not technically qualified. And he embarrassed someone with money. Even if he's right, the powers that be are going to slap him down for what he did. Juyoung is still struggling to try and make something of himself that he has independent control over. I love that they were willing to accept that loss to make sure that a kid they cared about was safe.

NiNi 

One time that the couple moving into the smaller house made sense.

Ben 

Why are you trying to make me mad again? Don't think I forgot!

NiNi 

Such a good show so much to it.

Ben 

Let's talk about that epilogue, because you brought up the house, the ending of this show, that little happy epilogue we get, is the best happy epilogue we have gotten in a long time. Because everything we saw in that was perfectly calibrated for where these two are realistically, what sort of difficulties they're going to be facing personally and financially, what their lives are going to look like socially. They confirm that they are having the sex on the reg and finally Dohoe got to see all of that boys Yahoo! Answers. [NiNi laughs]

Shan 

Yes, we need to talk about those forum posts at the end. It was such a lovely little button on the show. we've seen their domestic life. They're making it work. They are compromising together. They are happy and content in what they have. And Dohoe has let go of some of his huge aspirations for himself that were really just pressure. One of the things I love about the epilogue is this message that actually having a loving partnership that you care about and that you're committed to is a life achievement that you can stand up next to anything else that you do. And so just because he didn't have a fancy degree or a high paying job didn't mean that he had achieved nothing in life, because he had this beautiful relationship that he cared so much about. 

And then we see Dohoe looking through something on Juyoung's computer and stumbling upon his forum history where we learned that Juyoung has for years been posting questions for advice. And they're nearly all about things he wanted to do to help Dohoe. That forum is where he went to learn how to make snow when they were teenagers. As he read through the questions, you could see him connecting them back to memories of their time together. He has always, always cared about Dohoe. And he has always been willing to show up and put in the effort for him. It was really beautiful.

Ben

NiNi, reset the clock. I'm going to mention What Did You Eat Yesterday? [NiNi laughs]

Dohoe got to have the moment that Kenji got to have when he opened that refrigerator and saw that there were peaches waiting for him.

NiNi 

Mmhmm!

Ben

The last thing I want to say about this is I really love the way Hwang Da Seul uses the bed in this show. That we can see Dohoe's current demeanor shifting by how he shares a bed with Juyoung. I love that by the end he is a sloppy sleeper, hanging on top of that poor man.

NiNi 

Yeah, because the first time that they sleep in the bed together that we see in the second half of their relationship, he says he doesn't remember the last time that he slept properly. And Juyoung is just like, just lying down and shutting your eyes gives you the same kind of thing. So there's this whole thing where he's slowly relaxing back into himself so that by the time you see him in the epilogue he's basically sleeping spread out all over the bed. It's just joyous to watch it happen.

Shan 

He's so comfortable.

Ben 

I would like to end this section by giving thanks. Everybody go around and say things they're thankful for. I’m thankful for quite a few things. I'm thankful that we ended on the shot of that cross being thrown away.

Shan 

Mmm, yes!

NiNi 

Amen and hallelu.

Ben 

And I would like to thank Lee Seon for his face. [Shan laughs] Congratulations, sir.

NiNi

The Koreans have a term: face genius. He is one.

Shan 

He's definitely a face genius! I would like to offer thanks to Hwang Da Seul for continuing to perfect this story until she fucking nailed it and delivered the perfect version of it. Hats off to you, ma'am. You did it.

NiNi 

I would like to thank Hwang Da Seul for Lee Dohoe. I think the Lee Dohoe character is one of the best things I've ever seen anywhere in drama. Not just BL, not just kdrama, anywhere in drama.

Ben

Let’s rate!

Shan 

He's maybe my favorite character of the year. I gotta think about that. He's definitely one of them. The other one might be the one we're about to talk about.

NiNi 

The VIIBs are coming, girls. Just think about it, okay?

Ben 

I love these boys, but I already have my favorite boy of the year.

Alright, let's rate this bad boy. Tens or chops, everybody. Shan.

Shan 

As if it would be a chop. I'm actually trying to remind myself what score I gave it.

NiNi 

Do you gotta think about this?

Shan 

I'm just double checking. I gave it a perfect 10, baby! 

Ben 

Very rare, congratulations. Golf clap for this show.

Shan

The first, the first and only 10 that I gave to any BL this year.

NiNi 

I mean, y'all know how stingy Shan is with these 10s. Shan is not me. Shan never gives shit a 10.

Shan 

It's so true. A Shan 10 is quite a momentous event. This is the only BL this year that's getting one from me. I love this show. I think it is one of the best BLs ever made. It's beautiful. Everyone should watch it.

NiNi 

It's a motherfucking 10 from me. I don't think I need to explain that anymore than I already have. Hwang Da Seul is my queen and this is a fucking 10.

Ben

This is a 10. It got everything right. It got the romance right. It got the gay shit right on multiple fronts. It got the gay shit right with the leads and the guy who can't win, because we do need to accept that the world does not perfectly align for everybody to have the first person they like and you gotta move on. 

Great job, everybody! 

Shan

Great job!

NiNi 

It will be a 10 from The Conversation. Go watch it. It is the greatest thing that happened this year, except for this next thing that we're gonna talk about now.

Shan 

Mmhmm.

00:52:33 - Love In The Big City

NiNi 

Let's move on to the drama adaptation of Love in the Big City.

Ben 

Love in the Big City is the second adaptation this year of a book by Korean author Sang Young Park, which was translated by Anton Hur and pushed into international distribution. The book became very popular internationally, which rebounded domestically to get more views there. Sang Young Park was not involved with the movie adaptation, which NiNi did watch earlier this year. He was involved with the drama adaptation and was the lead screenwriter for this. 

The story is about the narrator who we just refer to as Young. It's about four different periods in his life. The original book premise treats these periods as semi-distinct from each other, whereas the drama presents them as a more linear story. In the first part, we focus heavily on our narrator's college relationship with his best girl friend, Miae, and how their relationship eventually comes to an end as the pressures of heteronormativity and long-term survival requires certain concessions. The second part of the story is when Young is a little bit more mature, he's dealing with the impending death of his mother and he meets this somewhat older man, and it's about the complex relationship he has with his homophobic mother and this homophobic boyfriend. The third part has our narrator with probably the best boyfriend he has, and how their relationship was not one that our narrator was able to make succeed in the long term. And the fourth part is him recognizing that he fucked up pretty badly in the third part and having to reckon with a life after his big love had come to an end.

I want Shan to talk about why we were so excited about this drama, and why Shan approached me about organizing a book club on Tumblr.

Shan 

Maybe my favorite thing that we did this year was Love in the Big City Book Club. So in January of 2024, we got news that Love in the Big City was going to get two adaptations, a drama adaptation and a film adaptation. I had read the book, Ben had not. And I was like, what would be very cool would be to try to encourage some of our friends, some of the folks that we are in community with on Tumblr to read the book together. And so we decided we were going to spend the month of February 2024 reading the book together with anyone who wanted to join us in this book club, with the intention of getting excited about a queer story that was gonna be coming to our screens. 

We talked earlier about the Hallyu Wave and how BL started to come into that. I think a piece that we didn't really address was that queer representation in mainstream kdrama is still incredibly rare. There have been isolated characters and storylines in mainstream kdrama that are gay, usually very small side roles, usually not depicted as having full lives, usually don't get to have romance on screen. We knew that Love in the Big City was a big, messy gay story. And we knew that with Sang Young Park involved in the drama adaptation, there was no way that this was going to be some sanitized version, and that this would be a landmark queer media event for Korea. So there were a few dozen of us that read the book, that really were engaged in participating in the book club posting every week. And we knew that when the drama adaptations were released later in the year, we would be ready to come back to those discussions. 

A really cool thing that happened while we were doing our book club is that one of our members reached out to Anton Hur, who did the English translation of the book. Anton Hur is a Korean gay man. He had a lot of personal feelings about working on this project, he chose it as a passion project. When he heard from our book clubber that there was a group of us who were doing a book club together on Tumblr, he showed up on Tumblr. He made an account and he posted in our tag to say hello to us and to invite us to ask him any questions that we wanted about his translation work. It was, like, one of the coolest things ever. He opened himself up, he answered dozens of questions for us about how he thought about the translation, why he chose to work on this project, what the story meant to him in his context. And it just really enriched the story for us, really brought it to life, really helped us think about a lot of these questions about, when you're trying to translate Korean content for our global audience, what are the things that you're thinking about? 

When we found out that the film would be premiering at the Toronto International Film Festival in September and that the drama would then be dropping in October, we were ready. We had all really grown to love this story. We were deep in the weeds on its themes, on what Sang Young Park was trying to say with this work. And we were just so excited to get to see it on screen.

Ben 

I was really thankful that Anton was willing to talk to us. I think few things are more validating for the way you try to show respect to the work that you're engaging with—by taking it as seriously as you can and respectfully as you can—is to have somebody who is closely involved with it acknowledge what you're trying to do and allow you to engage with them. I really appreciate the time that Anton took out for us on that. That was probably one of my most memorable things that happened this year.

00:58:46 - LITBC Part 1: Miae, Namgyu, and the Film Adaptation

Ben

Now, getting into the drama itself. NiNi, you watched ahead of us because we were intentionally pacing the drama. Let's break down some of our big reactions to each part. So, quick feelings that you felt about the first part, particularly about his relationship with Miae. I'm curious about your reactions to the relationship he had with her because you also watched the movie which is, if I understand correctly, primarily from her perspective and focuses on that part of the story.

NiNi 

So that's, I think, a misconception. It's not really from her perspective. The film adaptation covers the first part of the book. So it is about that relationship between the, well—I'm just going to use the drama characters names because they have different names in the film—between Young and Miae. And it really is a two-hander but is not really from Miae's perspective. You actually see Miae mostly from Young's perspective. The film is a different story from what I gathered the book story is, because I haven't read the novel, and it’s definitely different from the drama story. 

The film is more traditionally what you would expect coming out of kdrama. It starred some really big names who are winning some really big awards now. The film's enjoyable, Kim Go Eun is fantastic in it. I think that the drama is more grounded and more focused on the things that maybe the audience who is here for queer drama would like to see. 

For me, because I had seen the film first, I had a little bit of a disconnect trying to get through it because I was mentally placing things that were happening in the drama next to things that were happening in the film. And…while I enjoyed it, there were parts that I was missing and looking forward to that ended up being in later parts of the drama. So I kind of had to watch it twice.

The main thing that stood out for me about the first part of the drama was that part you said, Ben, about how Miae in the end slips away from Young, and it's because heteronormativity and misogyny and conservatism of Korean society are forcing Miae down a path that Young cannot follow and does not want to follow. Whereas in the film they have more of a rupture, in the drama it's more of a gentle slipping away. It's not that they're not still friends, but Miae's priorities change in a way that Young can't follow her into. That was probably the biggest difference. 

Because Korea is such a conservative society and such an ambitious, capitalistic society as well, I think people make compromises. They compromise and they compromise to have the life that they think that they should have or they're a little bit beaten down into the life that the society expects them to have, I'm always fascinated to watching that trajectory happen when it does in dramas. That's the part that I really latched into there, the fact that the reason that they came away from each other is because literally, Miae is able to do that and Young is not.

Ben 

Shan, quick reactions to Part 1?

Shan 

It’s so interesting to me that we had such different trajectories. For me, one of the most surprising and wonderful things about the drama is how close it was to the book. There are changes and they start to become more pronounced as we go through, but I was so happy about how close this felt to the story that was originally intended to be told.

I really loved that in part one, Miae and Young, we got to really see their relationship and it was paired in the drama with a relationship with Kim Namgyu, who was a boyfriend of Young's that just was kind of out of step with him. They were not looking for the same things. Young was very young and he was kind of cruel to Namgyu about some of their differences. I thought that was a really nice parallel that he had these two relationships where he just wasn't really on the same page with the people that he was engaging with. And he didn't, I think, realize that Miae ultimately wanted to conform in a way that he did not. And that became a fracture in their relationship. 

They didn't have a big dramatic blow up in the drama version. It was a much gentler kind of drifting away that happens a lot with people that you're very intensely in relationship with in your early 20s. As life goes on, you make different choices and you kind of realize that you're not each other's confidant anymore. You're not the person who can understand each other best anymore. It was sad, but it felt real. It felt true to the choices that they both made in their lives. But it was also a really big heartbreak for him, I think his first big heartbreak in terms of having someone that he really let in and then having that person disappoint him and not stick around. That started a pattern for him of behavior and the way that he engaged in his relationships. 

I really liked the depiction of Miae. I thought the actress that played her, Lee Soo Kyung, really embodied the spirit of that character. Her and Nam Yoon Su had great platonic chemistry as friends. And I really enjoyed all of their scenes together. 

I also want to shout out Kwon Hyuk, who played Namgyu. He is a BL guy. We've seen him before.

Ben 

Yeah, he's my man Jong Chan! Don't think I forgot about my man!

Shan 

One of the cool things that Love in the Big City did was it cast quite a few people who have done BL before, which was pretty fun. And he was great too, as this older love interest that was more traditional and out of step with bratty little Young. 

The piece that really resonated for me when thinking about how it compared to the book in this first part was that the fracture between Miae and Young didn't feel as harsh. The choice that she made, we had more context for her decision in the drama than we did in the book. The most common thing that you'll hear us say is that the book was extremely interior. We were sitting with Young in his older age as he was looking back with regret and narrating to us what happened. The drama has a wider point of view. It takes us into the perspectives of the other characters. And so it just naturally lightens things up a little bit, because we're not so stuck in one person's very cynical perspective.

Ben 

The series being kinder to the supporting characters in Young's life makes the book much sadder because he was not accepting of all the love people were trying to give him. My favorite thing about the first part is about how in both major relationships Young has, he's struggling with their connection to traditional feelings about romance. Like, Kwon Hyuk is so perfectly cast because he fit this very specific ideal, a man who is kind of caught up in the whole kdramafication of love. And Young is like, I get called slurs, I am not about that. 

The great thing about Miae, and why this particular presentation is so important to me is because, despite how people who aren't connected to queer people might think gay men don't have relationships with women, every gay man has had an extremely painful breakup with a woman who was super important to him. Every gay man I know has a woman who was their rock in their early twenties that for whatever reason it did not work out with. None of us gets over that. And I really loved seeing that represented.

01:06:50 - LITBC Part 2: Umma and Youngsoo

Ben

On to Part 2! Let's talk about the worst man ever.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

In Part 2, Young is a little bit older, and Nam Yoon Su and the director of Part 2—they were fucking dialed in on how heavy that man's life was in part two.

Shan 

It was Hur Jin Ho.

Ben 

Hur Jin Ho uses long shots and wide shots so well in this section to communicate how stuck Young is. Young is dealing with his mother who is in the hospital because she is dealing with cancer and is not going that great and his mom is working his damn nerves with her Christianity. At the same time, he is caught up in this new relationship with a man named Noh Youngsoo. And it is difficult because as hot and smart and mysterious as he finds this guy, this man is super closeted and high-key homophobic. It is difficult to watch him dealing with his mom's version of homophobia and then trying to love a man with his own version of homophobia.

I want NiNi to go first because I don't want Shan and I's book experience to color your reactions.

NiNi 

This is actually my favorite part of the drama. There's something about the relationship that Young has with his mother that puts me in mind of something that I've seen with other people whose parents know but won't acknowledge what they know about their kids. He's constantly running away from his mother. He goes to the hospital to see her because he's a good son and he goes to take care of her and all of that. He loves her, but he also can't wait to get away from her. And as you go along, you see there's a kind of a brightness and a brittleness in their relationship that feels like they're dancing around something that they both know is there, but will not speak about. 

That comes to a head at the end of this section, what it culminates in is as his mom is getting closer to the end, he wants to be real with her. He doesn't want to have this false, brittle relationship that they have where they joke around and play and they don't talk about anything real. He wants to show her his life and who he is and he wants her to see him before she dies. So he is in this relationship with this horrible man and he knows that this man is horrible. But he is holding onto it because he wants to show his mother, look mom, this is who I am and I can be happy like this. I can have a life like this. And then this man bails on him in the moment where he needs him to be able to show that to his mother. I'm kind of glad that he bails on him because that wasn't the one. That wasn't the person who made him happy. And if his mother had seen that, I think she would have picked up on that as well. 

So it's this terrible, bittersweet thing where it feels like his mom dies without ever really knowing her son and that haunts him in a lot of ways, it feels like. It's probably the thing I related the most to in the entire drama. Despite the fact that this is low key the worst person that Young dates in the whole thing, the worst relationship, the worst everything, to me, this is the part, the part with his mother and everything that's going on there that really sunk into me.

Shan 

The book is much darker than what we got in the drama. And actually, that's the reason this is not my favorite part of the drama, because the book version is my favorite part of the entire story. I don't think that that's a bad adaptation choice, though. I think it was appropriate for the drama they were making. But I already have the book Part 2 in my heart, and it didn't really match up to that.

The juxtaposition of Young's mother, her homophobia and the way that it had hurt him, against the relationship that he was having with Noh Youngsoo, who is very much hiding who he is, who also has a very complicated relationship with a difficult mother. It really felt like Young was kind of burying himself a little bit in this relationship that he knew on some level was not good, but he needed the distraction. He needed somewhere to take all of these emotions that he could not unleash on his mother. And he sublimated them into this relationship that was ultimately quite toxic. That just rang so true to me. This is exactly who I would expect Young to be dating in this dark period of his life where he is trying to work through all of his guilt and all of his shame and all of his extremely complicated feelings about his mother. But I thought that the way it was depicted and the way that he was allowed to take a little bit of power back from Youngsoo at the end of this section, the way that even though he was never able to fully express himself to his mother, he did get to have some moments with her, at the end, of peace. I thought that was really beautiful.

NiNi 

I have a book question before we go on to Ben. You said the drama is more linear, puts these stories sort of in sequence in time, whereas the book is more vignette-y. One of the things that came to mind in his relationship with Youngsoo is all the stuff that's going on with his brother, yes, but also, this is after Namgyu has died and he's been pondering all these questions about how he treated him and whether it's that he didn't even try to love him. And so part of it is yes, everything that's going on with his mother and him sublimating himself in this dark relationship. But the other part of it is him pushing through to try to make it work because he thinks that he didn't do that with Namgyu and he feels a lot of guilt about it.

Ben 

I really love that as a drama read because in the book Namgyu is just Kia Guy to us.

Shan 

He's not even a real character in the book. So It's hard, as someone who read the book first and knows the quote-unquote true version of the story, to read it that way, because he just wasn't someone with that kind of importance in the original telling of this story. But I do think it's a layer that the drama added and that could certainly be read that way.

Ben 

I don't think there's anything wrong with your reading connecting those two things. It's just when we read the book, Young is so distinct in each section that he almost feels like a different character.

Shan

Yeah, it's very intentional, the book not drawing those lines of connection between the parts. Which definitely informs the way that we think about and interpret the beats of the story.

Ben 

No, it's a good thing to point out. Because the same author is telling this story. I think your read on that and connecting those two things is 100% valid and likely intentional.

Shan 

It’s a cool thing to mention. This is an autobiographical story that became a novel that became a drama and the same man is the one who authored all of these versions of it. I think that that's really interesting that he came back to his own life experiences and added layers to them for a television drama version of the story. I'm sure that just like he did when he wrote the novel, he drew from things that felt real and authentic to him.

Ben 

I got a couple of things to say about Part 2 before we move on. To all of the baby gays out there, if you're gonna fuck a guy with this much internalized homophobia, don't fall for him because they are not well. You cannot fuck the homophobia out of him.

I also will say this section has one of my favorite moments. The final scene in the park with his mom, to me, hearkened back to the very complicated feelings I had during part three of Moonlight, where Chiron is seeing his mom for the last time in the film and he says, “I hate you, mama.” And he cries and she cries, but then he still lights a cigarette for her. That's the exact same place I went emotionally in that scene in the park.

My big thing about this section and how they lighten some of this: in the book, Young doesn't have his blow up with Hyung, as we called him in the book, in public. He has this in private in his apartment and he legit tries to kill that man. I appreciate the drama's choice, but let me tell you, I really was hoping we get the intensity that he really, really wanted to kill that man.

Shan

The whole nature of the scene is different in the book. He really could have killed him and he wanted to.

NiNi 

I wanted him to kill him. When they're sitting in that restaurant and he's saying all the things that he's saying about leaving and going to America and I know what Young is going through in that moment and that he basically left Young hanging out to dry when he really needed him. He turns to go and I see Young launch himself away from that table. I was like, “Yes, baby, kill him!” That man needs to be stabbed.

Ben 

I think because of the medium, I liked the choice to have Hyung writing like a shitty research paper about how gay people are fucked in the head and then send that shitty paper to Young for him to throw away. In the book, he sends Young his own diary back to him with edits! That is the most insane thing I have ever read! And I will always hate that man with a fiery passion.

Shan 

He literally took a red pen to that man's diary and sent him notes. Despicable man!  [Ben laughs] We can talk about murdering that man all night.

01:17:05 - LITBC Part 3: Gyu Ho and Kylie

Ben

In Part 3, Young buries his mother, and when he's hanging out with his friends to try and blow off some steam, he has a connection with one of the bartenders at the club. The two of them start hanging out and this grows into something really important for them. They try to do cohabitation and make their relationship work, but unfortunately Young's brain does not allow him to have the relationship he wants to have with Gyuho. 

We learn in this section that Young has been sick with HIV for quite some time and he can't even say it. He calls it Kylie after one of his favorite singers. This becomes an insurmountable struggle eventually in their relationship. This section is about a really good relationship that just wasn't enough. Like I was saying to the gays in the last part, you can't fuck these problems out of people. Gyuho couldn't either. 

Reactions to Part 3. NiNi, how you feeling?

NiNi 

Once the whole Kylie thing comes to the fore, it completely re-jiggers how I think about everything else that's been happening. The first question that I'm asking in my head is, when did this happen? Because it's not really clear in this part, when he found out about Kylie. Is it before he meets Miae? Is it before he meets Hyung? When did he change?

Ben 

I think it's after he meets Miae, but it's before the T-aras go off to their military service.

NiNi 

I gotta think about that because that just recasts everything.

Ben 

It does, like the fight that he has with her where she outs him to her fiance, the reason why he's so mad there is he almost trusted her with that. And he almost made, in his mind, a mistake doing that.

NiNi 

Because this is not part of the film and I had not read the book, this came out of nowhere for me.

Shan 

He does the same thing in the book. You don't know anything about it until Part 3. Each part has two relationships that it focuses on. Part 1 is Miae and Namgyu and Part 2 is his mother and Youngsoo and Part 3 is Gyuho and Kylie. I still think about that, that choice to pair who he considers at this point when he's writing this story to be the love of his life and the companion that he did not choose, that he can't get rid of, who haunts his life. I think that's such an interesting thing, particularly in the context of the way that Gyuho ends up kind of haunting the narrative after this relationship fails.

These are the two relationships that really stick with Young and change him. The thing to know about Gyuho is he is the only named love interest in the entire book. Everyone else is referred to by vague descriptors.

Ben 

Like Noh Youngsoo, he is just Hyung to us. And Kia Guy is just Kia Guy. Young doesn't even tell us his name. That's why Gyuho was so important to a lot of us from the book reader perspective because this is our guy. And we were really excited to see our guy!

Shan 

We were so excited to get to him. This is Young's most important relationship as he sees it, in terms of romance. This is the one. This is the one that he was happiest with. This is the one that almost worked. This is the one that got away. This is the one that haunts him still. And so it was really important that they got him right. 

And they did. They really, really did. That is why for me as a book reader, Part 3 is actually my favorite. I think that it is the most successful in translating exactly what this part of the book was trying to do and living up to the exact same standard of it. It was perfect.

Ben 

In this section for me, a couple of things really come to fruition in a way that I thought were perfect. Like the fact that they kept Miae's apartment as a character in the drama in a way that the book doesn't. It really works here because Young has stripped sociability from the apartment at this point. Like he's gotten rid of the TV. Clearly he doesn't invite people over except to fuck. He's got books all over the place. Gyuho moves in and they have to purge some of his shit. He has to reorganize things in the place. He's managed to contain his writing to one table they've put up against the window. 

But you can see him struggling in this section. He knows what Kylie is costing him. And he wants to succeed as a writer because he wants to be independently wealthy in a way that can supersede the barriers that Kylie genuinely presents to his life in terms of professional and personal advancement. He's trying to make this work, but he's so fucking mad because he can't.  He and Gyuho are not great and they keep having the same fights over and over again. They really figured out how to show how difficult gay domesticity is. 

This pairs so well with all of the heteronormative pressures from the first two parts. For a lot of hetero people there are all of these expectations about marriage and child rearing that help them prioritize their relationship in such a way they can make it work. For a lot of queer people, those structures are not there to support a long-term romance. This is such a difficult section because Young is not wrong about how Kylie is going to hold them back. It's just so sad that he was unwilling to accept Gyuho's willingness to deal with that.

Shan

I think that's one of the things I really love about this story. Young letting go of this relationship doesn't feel like a wrong choice or a choice that I couldn't understand. I wish he'd chosen differently. I wish that he had tried to talk with Gyuho about what happened in terms of his Kylie getting in the way of their plans to go to China. I wish that he had tried to work it out. But I really understand why he didn't. Even if Gyuho was obviously willing to sacrifice things for him, he didn't want Gyuho to sacrifice things for him. He didn't want Gyuho to be held back by his disease. He had a lot of really understandable shame and guilt about that. He just couldn't cope with the idea that his Kylie would be the reason why Gyuho did not get the things that he wanted, and so he ended it. 

A lot of times in dramas you'll get a scenario like this where you have what we call a noble idiocy breakup where a character is being stupid for the benefit of the other person. This didn't feel like that. It didn't feel like he was being stupid. It felt like he was recognizing a very real limitation on his life that he did not want to pass on to someone he loved.

NiNi 

I want to talk about depression for a minute. Fatalistic sabotage:  it's this idea that no matter what you do, it's going to suck. So let's burn it all down now because at least that I have control over. The trajectory of Young's relationship with Gyuho, that's what I was thinking about. The decision that he makes to not go to China and why he's not gonna try to work it out and not mention to Gyuho why he's not gonna try to work it out. That's sort of the end of the trajectory. But along the way you see him, like you said, pull further and further away from Gyuho throughout the relationship. Part of that, I think, is that idea of burning it down before it can burn him down. 

It's very much a depression thing. Kylie completely depresses him. And I think he's probably at the end of the story just starting to dig himself back out. There's a thing that he does in Part 4 that makes me think that okay, he's going to start digging himself out.

Shan 

I think that's very real. And I think we actually saw an explicit acknowledgement of one of his depressive periods in this part. The whole segment where he was really struggling with his writing and he couldn't focus and he and Gyuho kept fighting and he was being really snippy with him. 

We saw Gyuho come find him at the cafe where he was working and say to him, “What can I do for you? Please tell me how I can help you.” Young told him, “You can't. The things going on with me are not things that you can fix by loving me.” And that's such a fucking hard thing to accept.

Ben 

Let's get into the Thailand trip and how this doesn't fix their relationship. And then he throws that shirt away. My feelings were hurt.

Shan 

It hurt me so bad.

NiNi 

I feel like talking about the Thailand trip in Part 3 almost feels preemptive. We understand that it happened and we get a little bit of it in Part 3 but we really delve into it in Part 4.

Ben 

We’re running into the book stuff now, NiNi, because we don't go back to Thailand in Part 4 in the book, all of it happens in Part 3.

Shan 

Apparently for many of the people who watched the show without having read the book, they interpreted these two versions that we saw of the Thailand trip in some wild ways. Because of the way Parts 3 and 4 are structured, we see this Thailand trip through two different lenses. We see it through this Part 3 segment that is about primarily Gyuho's relationship with Young and Young's relationship with his Kylie. We see this Thailand trip in the context of them going through a rough patch, taking this trip as a chance to reconnect with each other. We see it as part of Young's commitment to trying to make things work with Gyuho. He makes time for this trip, even though he is stressed and trying to write and lacking in funds. He makes time for this because he cares about Gyuho and he cares about their relationship. We see them go to Thailand. We see them have that reconnection that is probably really familiar for anyone who's ever been in a long-term couple and has taken a trip that's meant to be a reset. We see them be happy and content together in their time in Thailand. 

And then we see them come back and have it not fix anything. They come back and all their problems are still waiting for them and they have not addressed them adequately. That's the context of Thailand in Part 3. It was a little bit of a Hail Mary on trying to get them back on the same page and it worked to an extent, but it didn't address the underlying issues. So it didn't ultimately fix things, but it was still this really lovely memory for them as a couple, this time that they spent together in Thailand.

01:28:31 - LITBC Part 4: Habibi and the T-aras

Ben 

Now let's talk about Habibi!

Shan 

So in Part 4, we then revisit this drama, this Thailand trip through the lens of a Young who is mourning his relationship with Gyuho, who's looking back and remembering it a little bit differently, remembering different parts of it. 

Now, nothing in the two presentations of this trip in Parts 3 and 4 actually contradicts each other in terms of the sequence of events and what happened. Some of the shots contradict each other, some of the tone of the scenes feel different. And that was very intentional. There were different directors shooting these scenes in each part. There were different moods and different perspectives from Young that they were trying to get across in each sequence. It's not that, as some people apparently interpreted it, one of these trips was real and one was fake. There's not some alternate reality thing going on here. We're just seeing the same trip first through the experience of Young in the present with Gyuho as he's trying to repair their relationship, and then later in retrospect as he's thinking back and remembering it through a haze of regret and melancholy.

NiNi 

It would not have ever occurred to me that one was real and one was fake.

Shan

Bestie, same!

Ben 

I'm about to get re-triggered about The Eighth Sense all over again.

Shan 

So in Part 4, Young has achieved some measure of success in his career, but he's feeling very personally unfulfilled. He is very sad about the end of his relationship with Gyuho. He seeks solace in this weirdo that he meets, Habibi, which of course is not his real name. He's just this older guy that Young meets through an app. I really liked the drama's adaptation of this dynamic between them. I really like how deranged it feels. 

These are two men who are kinda in a super low point. They are looking to each other for distraction more than anything else. They're playing these weird power games with each other. They're fucking with each other. It's a very strange energy that has nothing to do with romance, and honestly didn't even seem like it had much to do with sex. It was really just about distracting each other. He's the only love interest, quote-unquote, that we saw in the show that didn't have a sex scene. It wasn't even clear if he and Young were having sex. 

It was a really interesting thing to pair this haunted man who is struggling in his life, with basically this mourning for Gyuho and the relationship that Young let go of. I also thought it was a really interesting choice in the drama to tell us that Gyuho is still kind of lurking in the atmosphere. He left messages to Young. He left that order at the bar where he used to work that Young always gets a drink on his tab when he comes in. Through their networks of people it became clear that Gyuho is coming back to Korea. None of that stuff is in the book. And I was very curious about the decision to include those details. I wondered if it was maybe intended to set up the possibility of a continuation of this story. I would have a lot of mixed feelings about that.

We haven't talked about the T-aras much, this group of queer men that he is friends with throughout the story. They are probably the biggest change and they really change the feeling of the entire story from the book by making all of it feel lighter, making it feel like Young always has support, that he wasn't so isolated and alone through all of these things that happened to him. In this Part 4, we actually get to learn more about one of the T-aras, Eunsoo—who has his own plot that was invented entirely for the drama—about getting engaged to his long-term boyfriend and then realizing that he didn't actually want that marriage and turning to Young for solace and for understanding as he was struggling through that. So that's what's going on in this part. It was a really interesting mix of stuff and I wasn't entirely sure how I felt about some of the changes.

NiNi 

I like the word that Shan used, deranged, because that really is how the relationship feels between Young and Habibi. 

Bringing up the T-aras, to me, the T-aras don't feel as close to Young. To me, they sort of emphasize some parts of his isolation. There's two things that really came up with the T-aras that make me feel that way about them. The first one is that Young does not tell them about Kylie and will not tell them about Kylie because of the reaction that they had to this other kid at the club who it's the rumor has HIV, how they were covering their glasses at the club and Young sees that and that he doesn't feel like he can tell them about Kylie. The thing that really got me was when he gets to the end of story and we see that Eunsoo is getting closer to Young. That also makes me feel like actually the T-aras, they're close for a certain value of close, but they aren't actually that close because now Eunsoo and Young actually are becoming close in Part 4. 

They clearly care about him, everything that happens at the end of Part 2 when he tries to end his life and they come to the hospital and they're basically fighting the nurses to be able to visit him. And after Gyuho leaves and they bang down his door to make sure that he hasn't done something again, it's clear that they have a close friendship, but it still feels at a distance for me. One of the things that really came across to me in the whole drama is that Young keeps people at a distance, even the people that he is close to or supposedly close to.

Shan 

It's so fun to talk to you about this, NiNi, because it's all relative, right? The book is so, so, so much darker than this show that to us, this show feels super light, but you aren't coming in with that book context. So you feel the dark elements of the show that felt very suppressed to us.

Ben 

The T-aras did not exist for the book readers until Part 4. And the way that they were presented in Part 4, I actually thought they were a lot younger than young.

Shan 

It was in Part 3 that we met them in the book. They're basically presented as his club friends. They are not necessarily close personal friends. They had a much bigger role in the drama. I think it was implied that they were a little bit younger, but I don't remember the exact details of that.

Ben 

What works for me about the T-aras is it feels like in some ways Sang Young Park was apologizing to his friends who read his book. [Shan and NiNi laugh] He wrote them out of the story for most of it and I'm imagining somebody called him onto the floor and they were like bitch, we broke into your house for you!

I get what you mean, NiNi. They highlight how isolated he is. But what I love about them is that this shows that despite his isolation, he was not as alone as he thought he was. There were people around him that cared about him, that stuck by him, that listened to his bullshit, that supported him, really wanted to be there. That dark moment where he hurts himself, and his friends are fighting hospital staff just so they can make eye contact with him and know that he's alive and let him know that they're there too. That had me and Twig sobbing in our DMs for two days. 

Their initial reaction to someone else who was rumored to be positive influenced Young's inability to be as open with them about that, because when you're in your early 20s you make goofy foolish mistakes like that because you're not thinking that one of yours could be sick. You hurt people and they don't trust you at that point with something really important. 

I don't know that Young ever reaches a point where he can tell them about that and that's kind of sad, but I just loved that they were also one of the throughlines of his story along with the apartment. And I love that when he leaves the apartment, he brings them with him. That felt so much better than the very difficult place the book left me. When we finished reading the book, Shan was like, “I'm feeling kind of optimistic about that.” Meanwhile, me and Bookworm were like, “No, we're not. We're going to need to sit with this for a bit.”

Shan 

I was very intrigued by NiNi's mention earlier that at the end of the show, she felt like Young was starting to come out of it. That is exactly the feeling I got at the end of the book. And the way we got there was a little different, but I felt like what I saw in Part 4 reading the novel was not a Young that was healed, but a Young that was starting to figure out how to be better, how to heal himself. And I felt hope for his future. 

Ben, on the other hand, was really caught up in the bleakness of where we left him, that we didn't get to see him get over that mountain. It felt right to me that we didn't because this is a story that is frozen in a moment in time, that was written at, like, the end of this man's 20s when he was looking back at his young life and the mistakes that he had made. He hadn't yet figured out how to get himself together. He hadn't gotten over that mountain yet. And so neither did Young in the story. It felt appropriate. 

I think that feeling of hope was present in both versions of the story. And I think it did come through stronger in the drama.

NiNi 

The thing that I was alluding to earlier is Young moving out of the apartment. That makes me feel like he's about to dig out because that apartment was such a part of him throughout the story. It became this constant in his life. And in the end, I think it was a little bit of a stone around his neck that he needed to get rid of; he needed to make a break with some aspects of the past in order to move forward. And part of that was moving out of that apartment, moving into the new place. 

The person who's there with him is Eunsoo, who he is becoming closer to because the two of them are having, I think, a different experience from the other T-aras and they are connecting over that experience. Eunsoo has been in this long, very serious relationship that was going to lead towards marriage and Young had this relationship with Gyuho that was incredibly serious and really defining and I don't feel necessarily like the other T-aras had something like that, but for the two of them it was a thing that they connected over, that they understood essentially why they left those relationships. They didn't have to explain it to each other, they were just able to be. So watching him leave the apartment, watching him get closer to Eunsoo, those two things are the things that made me feel like Young's gonna be okay, he's gonna dig his way out of this.

Ben

I'm glad that we all got there in the drama. I think that's the most important thing that he got right in this adaptation, after taking us on this long journey with Young, he doesn't give us any bullshit answers at the end of it. But at least he showed us that Young is not destined to suffer and spiral for the rest of his life. And I think that's a good place to leave someone after giving us their tumultuous twenties.

01:40:28 - Love In The Big City: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

Before we get into ratings, I think we should talk about the production of this show and the distribution drama around it. First, let's talk about Nam Yoon Su. Nam Yoon Su is a phenomenal actor.

NiNi 

Amazing.

Ben 

It is very clear that a lot of very careful decisions went into his casting because he has, as of this recording, a very clean public record. Everybody loves this man. He's a favorite of a lot of people. I think it was really clever of them to cast an actor that had such a good reputation to play such a complex character.

Shan 

He has mostly played a lot of side roles in mainstream kdramas. So he's a very well-known face to kdrama viewers.

Ben 

What a beautiful face. Look at those dimples. 

Shan 

Nam Yoon Su doesn't have the visuals of a heterosexual kdrama lead, but he is perfect as Young. He has always been really captivating in every role that he's had. He's a phenomenal actor who, because of the very narrow standards of what is perceived to be the ideal masculine model for heterosexual kdramas, has not had the chance to lead a show. So I loved seeing him get that chance here and he ran with it.

Ben 

More important, I loved that he embraced this character so much. That gay little run that man executed? I will give that man every award that this silly little podcast is able to offer him.

Shan

Body language, his expressions, the inflections that he used in his voice. I've seen him in other stuff. This was all brand new.

Ben 

I really love that he and all of his co-stars were able to get to where they needed with these characters and I really love the way they clearly coordinated for their press tour for this show. Half the guys were like, I am in love with Nam Yoon Su now. They're like, don't you think that sounds kind of gay? Well, I guess that's who I am now. [NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan 

I guess that's what it is. 

NiNi 

Who is the actor who played Gyuho?

Shan 

Gyuho's actor is Jin Ho Eun. He was so honored to be part of this project. He was so excited to play Gyuho. Seems like such a nice dude. The guy who played Youngsoo, Na Hyun Woo is his name. He gave interviews where he basically admitted to falling in love with Nam Yoon Su while filming this show and becoming a little bit obsessed with him. Relatable!

Ben 

In the interview, they're like, “Have you met any of the other actors that he worked with?” “Not yet. I don't know if I should.”

Shan

Gonna have some jealousy issues, was the implication.

NiNi 

The reason that I was asking about the actor who played Gyuho is because I did see something about how he had wanted to work with Nam Yoon Su for a really long time and when it came up the chance to work with him he accepted before he even knew what it was and when he found out what it was he was just like, “Okay yes let's do this” and he went full pussy in because he wanted to impress Nam Yoon Su. I thought that was a great story.

Shan 

Everyone in the production had nothing but wonderful things to say about Nam Yoon Su. He seems quite beloved.

Ben 

He talked about how this was one of the most difficult projects he was in, because he's present in every part. He has to work with these different directors who have different styles. He talked about, there was a little bit of a melancholy for him about how right as he was developing a rhythm with one director and their team, he would have to start that over again with another director with each part.

Shan

He basically made four different dramas inside this drama. He played Young differently in each part.

Ben 

Part of why they were able to cast Nam Yoon Su is they got two huge grants which helped make this possible. A lot of these KBLs we watch are made on really tiny budgets and a lot of heart. This is one of the few projects we get to see where a significant amount of money was brought to bear to make the drama happen. The fact that they were able to afford someone like Nam Yoon Su is telling about this.

And this led to a bunch of drama right before the series released where conservative groups were gathering to protest the drama to try and keep it from being aired. It led to the network choosing to just dump the show onto the internet instead of airing it properly. And I am frustrated because I do not think this drama was meant to be binged.

Shan 

That's the way that it got distributed, so of course that's the way that some people watched it, but it only got distributed that way because it had to, to make sure that it could all be released into the world. It was a choice that was made out of necessity and not because it was what was ideal for the story. Which is why Ben and I and some of our friends who were in the book club together intentionally paced it and only watched two episodes a week, which is how it was meant to air.

Ben 

I remember in 2016 when we watched Moonlight feeling like something has shifted in me as a viewer, and it's been so disappointing almost a decade later that it does not feel like the artistic impact that I felt in Moonlight has reached a lot of the follow-up media that I thought would speak to it. I really hope that Love in the Big City reaches a lot of people. Because this drama is special.

Shan

Sang Young Park shared that Love in the Big City is getting additional distribution after a really positive reception from the international audience. It aired on Netflix late in December, on Wave and Watcha, and it's going to be going to 15 additional Southeast Asian countries. So, despite the protest, despite the difficulty in getting funding and getting this made, it has reached an audience and that audience has returned love back to it. It has been heard and more people are gonna get to see this show.

Ben

That's beautiful news. I also heard that he may have gotten tapped for another project.

Shan 

I think that's right. Sang Young Park is continuing to get work. He's still writing books. He's going to be making other shows. I'm very excited to see what else he puts out.

Ben 

This was a really special experience. This is probably my favorite experience of the year. I really, really loved the book club experience. And I'm so glad that we were able to carry that forward into the show.

On that note, let's rate this bad boy! Tens or chops, NiN!

NiNi 

It’s a 10.

Ben 

Shan?

Shan

I gave it, in my actual rating, a 9.5, because, you know, I'm me and I had some notes, but I loved it. Loved it so much.

Ben 

Goddamn it, Shan! [laughs]

Shan 

Come on, you know me. But it’s a beautiful, beautiful drama. One of my very favorite things that I watched this year and honestly going on my list of all-time favorites.

Ben 

This gets a 10 from me because it's a show that I wish everyone would watch slowly and then talk to me about it.

Shan 

Slowly! Please do not binge it and then come talk to us. We're just gonna get mad.

Ben 

Please, at most, watch two episodes a day and give your brain a chance to absorb what you experienced?

Shan 

Somebody on Tumblr said today that they needed five to seven business days to process every section of Love in the Big City, and that is correct, that is the right way to watch it.

01:48:25 - Outro

Ben 

On that note, let's wrap up this discussion of two of our three favorite Korean projects of the year.

Shan 

While there is less Korean content overall in BL and in queer drama this year, they gave us some of the best stuff of the year.

Ben 

Thank you all for spending time with us on this. Please share with us your reactions, especially if you were in the book club. I'd love to hear how you're feeling about the show, the book, the movie after we're a couple of weeks and now maybe months removed from it.

NiNi 

That is going to wrap us up on Hallyu, our Korean Wave episode. We out. 

Say bye to the people, Shan.

Shan 

Bye people!

NiNi 

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben 

Peace!

[the-conversation-pod]

Lost Focus and Had a Consensual Workplace Relationship: AYAKA is in LOVE with HIROKO and At 25:00 in Akasaka

AND WE'RE BACK!

Come joins Ben, NiNi, and @ginnymoonbeam as we talk about two different takes on workplace romances, and the various challenges the settings brought to the table. It's time to discuss miscommunication and professional boundaries.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:02:52 - Ayaka Is In Love With Hiroko 00:10:45 - Ayaka: A Split Narrative 00:17:20 - Ayaka: The Negatives 00:24:25 - Ayaka: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:29:08 - At 25:00 in Akasaka 00:35:34 - At 25:00 in Akasaka: It's the Characters for Us 00:43:18 - At 25:00 in Akasaka: Hayama and Shirasaki 00:49:05 - At 25:00 in Akasaka: Filmmaking and Production 00:53:25 - At 25:00 in Akasaka: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:58:45 - The State of J-BL

The Conversation Transcripts!

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00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Introduction

Ben

And we're back. This week we have brought along Ginny. Say hello again, Ginny.

Ginny

Hello.

Ben

We are discussing Japanese programming this week. We're gonna be discussing Ayaka is in Love with Hiroko, and we're also going to discuss At 25:00 in Akasaka.

NiNi

Yep, we've got one show whose title I totally understand, and one show that I am still confused by how the title relates to the show, but I incredibly enjoyed.

I feel that the common theme between these two shows was a little bit of, shall we say, misunderstanding?

Ginny

There's definitely a situation of each person having a very firm and incorrect interpretation of the other person's intentions and motives in what seems to be a very obvious romantic pursuit.

So if we're looking for a common thread, I would say that's the strongest one.

Ben

There's also the common thread of being engaged in a professional environment that discourages the immediate pursuit of a romantic relationship.

Ginny

That's true. They both have their career situations as distinct impediments in a way that not every workplace show does.

NiNi

Okay, so.

Ben

I think that's the one that works the most consistently for me because there are clear professional reasons why they shouldn't be pursuing the romance, at least at the outset.

NiNi

I like it.

00:02:52 - Ayaka Is In Love With Hiroko

NiNi

Alright, so let's start with Ayaka. Ben, what is Ayaka is in Love with Hiroko about?

Ben

Ayaka is in Love with Hiroko is an office place GL series in which a young woman named Ayaka has been nursing a crush for quite a while on her supervisor team lead who is one of the coolest girls we had in GL in the outset for a while, and who has an excellent fashion sense. 

I immediately trusted her. I would work for her. I completely understood the team's full confidence in Hiroko. She was so cool, and so steadfast, and so gregarious about it. You could see people actively, immediately relaxing once they interfaced with her. I completely understood Ayaka's crush.

Ginny

Hehehehehe.

Ben

Ayaka had originally presented at work in this very sort of stern, severe pantsuit model, and then decided to tailor her look to be more cutesy to try and attract Hiroko. And the early parts of the show are dominated by the comedy of errors of Ayaka desperately trying to convey her feelings to Hiroko, and Hiroko intentionally reading that as straight girl bait the whole time, and actively misreading all of Ayaka's desperate attempts to express her affections.

NiNi

fun at the front end. felt really. I was enjoying the comedy of watching Hiroko almost deliberately misunderstand what Ayaka was doing. It's like she couldn't even hear it. She was just like, “Nope, nope, nope, there's no way, there's no way.” I actually really responded to that because it made me think of all my lesbian friends and how they never believed that the girl who likes them actually likes them. It was very realistic to me.

Ginny

It's true. It was so deliberate because she does not trust this dynamic, because the problem with liking women as a woman is that there can be lots and lots of casual affection. Lots of, “Love you so much.” Lots of just like draping yourself all over your friend. And how are you supposed to interpret that?

Watching Hiroko wrestle with her very obvious horny responses to this and being like, “I cannot do that, I cannot go there, I cannot allow myself to believe that this might be real, because that way lies madness,” was very, very relatable.

Ben

The of it went on for about like four solid episodes of escalation that got steadily more ridiculous, but I held firm with it. I'm like, okay, I get it. Even to the point where, like, they go on a work trip and Ayaka is, like, cheering in the background when the little gay hotel manager is like, “I'm so sorry. There's been a mix -up with the rooms. We only have one room and unfortunately it's the honeymoon suite. Sorry, but you guys are gonna have to take it.” And Ayaka's like raising her hands to the skies in the background that finally the tropes are coming together for her because there's only one bed. And she had prepared for this moment by bringing, like, the cutesiest, horniest outfits she could possibly put together. And wears it coming out of the shower?

Ginny

Yup. That whole hotel sequence was so funny.

NiNi

Ayaka really doing her best.

Ben

There are a lot of great hijinks, too, out of the rest of the office. Like, she was trying to flirt with Hiroko at the office, but the rest of the crew kept accidentally interfering by doubling down on what Ayaka was doing. Especially with this moment where she was trying to give Hiroko, like, a massage because her shoulders were tensed out and the whole office gets involved.

NiNi

I think I was...you

That was such a funny moment because every time the camera panned back to the door there were more people just standing in the door like... It was so funny. I really liked the office hijinks and how the camerawork and the direction was really amping up the office hijinks. It made it super funny, super entertaining. I was really enjoying that part of it.

Ginny

Because everybody loves Hiroko.

Ben

There was also the interesting part because Hiroko was clearly gay to us and we knew that she lived a very active, if private, gay life separate from work. There was this really funny potential early on because Ayaka's sense of queerness was very personal and—I don't want to say underdeveloped—but it was extremely isolated. And Hiroko’s was not because she was like a boob monster who was famous at the local lesbian spot for showing up at the age of 18 in her school uniform, and then basically being the Brian Kinney of her local community for a while.

NiNi

You're gonna have to explain who Brian Kinney is for the babies.

Ben 

I will not. You will have to look it up. If you don't know, you better ask somebody. How am I supposed to explain a hundred episodes? You know what?

NiNi

I liked the bar. I liked the gay bar. I liked the characters of the gay bar. The one really femmy girl that Hiroko hates and who hates Hiroko right back. They say I would never date you. I hate you. They feel like exes.

Ginny

They've definitely hooked up. Definitely.

Ben

At least twice.

Ginny

The lesbian bar was probably my favorite thing about the show. I love seeing that kind of space that's so essential for real life queer community and just all these girls who know all of Hiroko's drama and history and will give her shit about it, but will also support her. 

The one thing that was unrealistic to me is they should have clocked who Ayako was way sooner. Like, no way are those girls missing that. When she shows up and they start to put the pieces together, they're putting them all together right away. But I just love the whole dynamic and that we got to see a space like that where Hiroko can be her lesbian self with a bunch of friends who love her and give her shit in equal measure.

NiNi

Is she the one who told him that he's a book

Ben

So this is actually where the first disconnect with the show I experienced was.

Ayaka and Risa have realized queerness in each other and they decide to go to a local lesbian bar together. They end up at the bar Hiroko always frequents. And...I just don't know that I really liked them just talking about Hiroko like that to these girls who were clearly referring to Hiroko as senpai and then later on telling more of Hiroko's business to these girls. That part threw me off because I don't see how her own people wouldn't be aware about how clear the line was for her at work, and would chat about her like that with her juniors.

Ginny

I think that didn't bother me because of the outrageous comedy space the show already existed in. I wasn't expecting people to behave like real people because none of them do in this show. Everything's notched up. So the fact that that situation was created made sense for me within the genre space that I felt like the show was sitting in.

Ben

I think it ended up sticking with me because after that error happens they apologize to Hiroko and then later tell Risa even more stuff. And that's the part where I was like, okay guys, come on.

Particularly because Risa was not on Hiroko's side in this at all.

NiNi

For me, it came down to like, is a community space, but how well do these people actually know and like each other? They're in this space together because they are who they are, but are they actually friends? I don't know.

I feel like the closest thing that Hiroko maybe has to a friend at the bar is Mama, and that's the one that bugged me when Mama kind of got into the business a little bit, but the other girls at the bar I could totally see them, like, talking about Hiroko's business.

00:10:45 - Ayaka: A Split Narrative

Ben

I want to go to Ginny for a little bit here you mentioned in the last response how you just sort of went with the show's absurdity. I want you to sort of talk through the way the show goes from Hiroko's straight girl reticence, to the reveals about her past relationship with her senior, and the way that affects the final arcs of the show.

Ginny

To me, it felt like a pretty coherent line. Once we saw what Hiroko's past had been, it made perfect sense to me that there's this other layer besides the straight girl danger refusal to consider. It's like, it's not true that Ayaka really loves her. And if she were to risk it and be wrong, that would be terrible. And if she were to risk it and be right, that would also be bad. Like there's no winning for her in this relationship because of her history, because she's already had this experience with her senior that kind of showed her this kind of relationship—especially in the workplace—is simply not something that she can indulge in.

I liked the show better as we got into the later half because as funny as the comedy is, it's really not my jam, the big hijinks. I was like, okay, this is a good joke, but it's the same joke. I'm not mad about it, but I'm not having as good a time. But once we got into the struggles that Hiroko is having with who she is in her career, which she's clearly very dedicated to, and who she is in her love life, which she also is very secure in. The idea of merging those and becoming a whole person, the idea of decompartmentalizing those things was unthinkable to her and very, very scary.

I liked it. It made sense to me. It worked for me as a character storyline.

NiNi

Listening to you talk about it in that vein, like, for me, it felt actually quite disjointed. The two things felt separate to me. What was going on in the front half felt different from what was going on in the back half. Even if they felt connected, they didn't feel like the same through line, and that was the part that got disjointed for me.

The straight girl thing that was happening at the beginning felt like one story. And then the stuff with, with Hiroko's former senior, and the stuff that was happening at work around Hiroko potentially coming out or not coming out. It's not that it didn't feel of a piece, but it felt like two pieces. It didn't feel like one piece to me. So when it shifted from one storyline together to me, it felt quite jarring.

The second half of things I was kind of confused. Like, what? This isn't the same story that they were telling before. It made me wonder because if this was adapted from a manga is because sometimes they tried to frankenstein two volumes of a manga together and it doesn't quite work, so i was wondering whether that was what happened here, because to me it just it really felt like two separate stories not one total story.

Ben

I struggled because the “I don't date straight girls” bit feels like a separate part of her queer history from the “my beloved senior who I cared a lot about was run out of the company because of rumors about us” don't feel inherently connected to each other.

I can maybe see the way the first is being used as a shield to obfuscate the second, but I don't think the show really handed a baton between one to the other really well. I was also just really put off by the constant outing of Hiroko in the backend by people who I thought should have known better. I didn't like the Bettys at the bar outing her twice. And I really didn't like... Risa revealing even more of Hiroko's business to Ayaka. That felt like a real lack of queer solidarity, which really rubbed me the wrong way. 

On top of that, there was weirdness with the way Hiroko shifted towards the end. I thought that weird breakup kiss she did with Ayaka felt really mean, and I was completely baffled by the “I'm gonna cherish her so I won't have sex with her for over a year” thing at the end. I'm like, they literally called her a boob monster. What is going on?

Ginny

That is my one beef with the show. That bit made me so mad and knocked it down a good half point in my rating. First of all, I don't believe it. You have not been together for a year and not had sex. And if you're going to bring that in, you've got to resolve it. But no, okay, rude.

NiNi

I have to concur that if you're gonna bring that in, you have to resolve it. What it felt like to me was the beginning of a third story because like I was saying, all these stories felt connected. They feel like they come from something like the same place inside of Hiroko and that feels like a place of, like, guilt almost. 

There's these three manifestations of that. But the first one to me felt the most true. The second one didn't feel connected to the first one. And then this third one feels like it barely got started as a story before the story was over. That really irked me because your girlfriend is here literally putting on all the hot outfits, begging you, and you're not going to do anything about it. Something's not adding up here. What's going on? You're a legendary boob monster, according to the girl at the bar and you haven't touched her. What's happening here? And then the show ends. I wanted to see that play out. To me it feels even like the first and third stories were better connected than the second story in the middle the stuff that was happening at work probably felt the most jarring to me out of the three elements of the story that they tried to handle.

If they had moved from the part where Hiroko walks into the bar and sees Ayaka and Risa there to the part where Ayaka is now openly pursuing Hiroko at work now that she knows that Hiroko is into women and is potentially into her putting extra effort into it…there's just a bit in the middle that for me just doesn't connect to those two things and then the end feels abruptly cut off. I want to see more of what happens there. Why is the switchies doing? How is Ayaka gonna deal with that? How are they gonna deal with that together? I really wanted to know and then it just stops.

00:17:20 - Ayaka: The Negatives

Ben

All the outing shit I think was used because I think it fits like the classic sort of meddling hijinks stuff that other romantic comedies like to use. I don't think it works well here because it involves outing someone. And I don't like that being treated as like a “this needs to happen so we can move this relationship forward” sort of thing. I was really bothered by the implicit idea from the story at the end that Hiroko needs to get over her closet issues because the world has changed. I don't know that I liked the execution of that. I don't know that the show felt like it was respecting Hiroko a lot in the back third. It felt kind of cruel to me.

Ginny

They did play that one a little fast and loose. I could see what I felt like they were trying to say. The message of “the world has changed, you can be out” is one that I like to see. And I like the generation gap of even though they're only a few years apart in age, how much things have changed from Hiroko's formative workplace years to Ayaka's. I enjoy seeing that, but I agree that it was not handled gracefully and kindly. And it kind of felt like Hiroko was being.

Ben

It felt like she was being picked on for the entire half of the show.

Ginny

Yes. Yeah.

NiNi

It brought me to mind a little bit of She Makes My Heart Flutter, that generational divide between the aunt and the niece about how public to make the bar. But also like one of the things that they did in that whole arc that I sort of showed me where they were trying to go with this but not succeeding was Hiroko and Yuya being in the meeting with the senior, and the senior being sort of like, “it's so great that the kids feel like comfortable to be out.” And then he sort of treats Ayaka's hitting on Hiroko as a phase. Treats the whole idea of women loving women as some kind of a phase that these little girls have to go through. That's the one part of the arc where I thought I could see clearly what it is that they were going for in trying to sort of be like, well, no, Hiroko is actually right because as much as they're saying the world has changed and she's still dealing with this kind of attitude. I see what they were going for with it, and they put some of the elements in there to make it clear what they were going for, but inevitably it got muddled by some of the romance arc things, particularly...the storyline with Risa and Risa's jealousy more muddled than it needed to be.

Ben

According to manga readers, they removed the arc where Risa and Ayaka earnestly attempt to date for a while and realize that it doesn't work.

Ginny

They didn't have room to do that, but I like that as a storyline.

Ben 

Fuck, that art just sent me. You're too odd! I lost it!

NiNi 

The way that you just said, You were like...

Ben 

She said, Ginny said, now hold up. I'm sorry! You can continue!

Ginny 

Can I watch that show? No, one of the other things that I really liked about the show was their complicatedly emotional never-were-dating breakup scene. That was very, very lesbian space. Like, yeah. Just everybody deep in their feels. They love each other so much.

Ben

I did feel very lesbian.

Ginny 

It's so tangled up, but they're certainly not going to separate from each other in any way. That is not what our people do.

NiNi 

No, never, never ever separate from each other.

Ben

I think something I would have liked to see them do—they dropped this entertainment article in the back end of Hiroko's senior doing well at some other opportunity now—I think what I would have really liked is for her to have a call with her and check in and free her from that last look she had of her senior. I would have really liked to see, like, a phone call or a mini reunion between them that would have allowed Hiroko to put that down so that she could advance forward. I kind of wish that Hiroko had had a growth on her own about the specific angst that was holding her back that she could have let that go. 

Also, a specific resolution about standing up to guys like the ignorant senior who she was about to replace in that position. I just don't feel like her character got that in the back half of the show, which felt especially mean because she's basically just getting beat up and let down by all of her people because she just won't be with Ayaka. But I feel like the show did a good job establishing why she didn't want to be with Ayaka for her own professional and personal safety and for Ayaka's personal and professional safety. And I don't know that Hiroko got resolution on how to manage her own fears and insecurities about real problems that befall queer professionals in the back half.

NiNi 

I don't feel like Hirako got much resolution about anything and that was the thing that made me sad about the show. I actually would have liked it to continue. As much as it felt like it was messy, it felt like it had some of the right ideas and I really did enjoy watching it happen but it feels like a lot of the decisions that Hirako made were responding to outside stimuli and not really internalizing what's happening, how she's feeling, what she wants to do. A lot of it felt like it was responding to all this other stuff that was going on and things that her coworkers were saying to her and all of that. 

I think I could have used more episodes of this show. I know Ben is over in the corner like shh, no new friends. But I think that this show could have stood to be longer. It feels like some of these ideas got cut off a little bit.

Ben 

I think there are definitely two more episodes in there. There's an episode of Ayaka and Risa trying to date, and there's an episode of them trying to be girlfriends of Hiroko and Ayaka.

NiNi (29:15)

I would have paid money. I would have paid money to see both of those. The other thing, I would take like a three episode spin-off of Hiroko’s old senpai. 

Ben 

My god. We saw Hiroko for the first time and I was like, wow, she's so hot. And then we saw her senior and I was like, wow, I get it! I just instinctively will just fall in line behind any lesbian who wears an oversized suit that well, she clearly is in charge. I will do whatever she needs me to do.

NiNi 

It was that, was the hair, it was the nails, it was everything. It was such a clear type. I was just like, I know you miss, I know you so well.

Ginny

It was very good.

00:24:25 - Ayaka: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

Speaking of the coworkers, there was a lot of fun in them. Honda Kyoya was in this show and he was clearly having a blast just hanging out on this set. They did not ask much of him and he was clearly enjoying it.

Ginny 

Yeah!

NiNi 

His reaction shots are fantastic.

Ginny 

He just got to be the chillest, best little ally buddy. It was wonderful. I was so happy to see him.

Ben 

Honda's character Yuya walking in on Ayaka instigating a Hiroko kabedon was so fucking funny. He stumbles around the corner. He goes, kabedon! And then he gives them an awkward thumbs up.

NiNi 

It was amazing. He just gave us exactly the little sprinkle of spice that we needed on top of this story. All his reaction shots are hilarious. Some of the great work that I expect from Japanese background acting.

Ben 

I love the other senior who's about in the same class as Yuya, who was playing her little dating games all the time, accidentally giving Ayaka advice. She was also great. I had a lot of fun with her. And then you had the boy who as soon as Ayaka announced publicly her desire to be with Hiroko was like, what? A rival? No, I'm going to win.

NiNi 

I like them. Aww. I love when men get weirdly competitive with lesbians. It's like, aww, sweetie. This is not gonna go the way that you think it will.

It was an entertaining show, it was a fun show, I enjoyed quite a bit of it. I think it got messy, I think it got muddled, but I don't think it is a bad show at all. There were parts that I was like, grumpy face, but I liked the show quite a bit.

Ginny 

I liked it a lot. I'm now sorting my list to see if it's my highest rated GL so far, would be a little bit... well, besides She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat, which speaks more to the quality of the other GLs we've gotten this year, but I did quite enjoy it.

NiNi 

Whew.

Ben 

I was gonna say, I'm really glad She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat came out this year, so I don't feel like I'm just being mean to Japanese GL.

NiNi 

Gosh, we're gonna have to talk about, like, the state of GL in the Year In Review, because my god.

Ben

It's in such a weird state, we got a decent amount of it, but it's all been fucking weird this year.

Ginny 

I'm just hanging on to the belief that this is early growth and we're gonna eventually get something good.

Ben 

Alright, so let's rate this bad boy—or bad girl, I guess.

NiNi 

And this is the thing though, we've gotten good stuff.

Ben 

NiNi, rating?

NiNi 

I give it an 8. I think it was a good show. It's got some flaws to it, but I quite enjoyed it. I like Japanese comedies. I think that they can be quite funny, especially when they have the amped up sort of energy to them. I liked a whole lot about Ayaka and Hiroko, the characters, and the way that they interacted. When Ayaka is really pursuing Hirako, very much enjoyed that.

Ben 

Ginny, rating?

Ginny 

I gave it an 8.5. Pretty much everything NiNi said, I really enjoyed it. The genre isn't my favorite, but I thought it was really well executed. Both the lead actresses were great, no complaints about them. I was taking everything in the spirit of this is a high hijinks sitcom, so a lot of the things that might have bothered me in a more serious tone didn't.

Ben 

Unfortunately, I was not in a forgiving mood about these things. And my serious gripes with all of the outing and the mishandling of Hiroko are why I'm giving this show a 4.

NiNi 

4? Ben, come on.

Ben 

I was super put off by it. The really solid execution around all of it feels kind of insidious for me.

NiNi (35:18)

Hmm. Math. How does it work?

Ben 

It's like 6.8 so we can give it a 7.

NiNi 

I feel like I want to bump that up to at least a 7.5.

Ben 

Nope.

NiNi 

7 range.

Ben 

I really had a lot of fun with aspects of the show, but I will not just hand wave the outing of the Hiroko character constantly by people who should have been protective of her. And I really did not like the way she treated Ayaka in the back half at all. And the whole like, I'm going to cherish you by not having sex with you thing is the kind of weird purity stuff I really don't like. And so, no. No, that's a 4.

NiNi (36:22)

We're gonna end up at a 7 from The Conversation, but it is a split score.

00:29:08 - At 25:00 in Akasaka

NiNi

On to the next show, 25 Ji Akasaka de. I actually got that pronounced relatively correctly I think. At 25:00 in Akasaka. 

Ben, what is At 25:00 in Akasaka about?

Ben 

About how it's totally fine for them to do... I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama twice in one year.

25 Ji is about an aspiring actor who gets his first big break to star in a BL across from a rising star actor and model who was part of his film club when he was still in college. And about the complexities that come out of them working together because secretly his co-star has been nursing a huge crush on him for years and our protagonist is not that perceptive of it. We deal with the complexities of Shirasaki, our protagonist, trying to understand the interiority of his character and dealing with the difficult separation of his own feelings from his character's feelings, complicated by his co-star not being transparent about his own feelings while they were working on said project together. And also the complications from their co-stars, I guess.

NiNi 

I fucking love this show. I loved it with my whole heart. I'm gonna do the thing that—Ben can laugh at me. I loved it unreservedly. I love the characters of Shirasaki and Hayama. I really enjoyed the way that the show was constructed, how we get those misunderstandings at the beginning between Shirasaki and Hayama, and then we get a moment where it all gets explained through a flashback, which, my favourite use of a flashback. 

I love that the Japanese managed to pull off this people starring in a BL falling in love in real life thing twice in one year, once in drama and once in comedy. I really had such a great time with this show and I have been wanting to talk about it for months and delve into the juiciness of it.

Ben 

Ginny, any initial reactions about how you felt about the show?

Ginny 

They made this show for me. They heard all my prayers and read all my group chat messages and delivered the actors falling in love while playing lovers story that I have been dreaming of and wanting for so long. What I love about this premise and what they delivered so well is the complicated interplay between the way art lets you express and release your emotions and the way doing that confuses you about what's really your emotions. They hit so many beautiful notes in that scale.

Ben (

I also really liked this show. I like when a character is holding back for valid reasons, but then it goes on too long. That's a really fun space for me in romantic dramas. I think the Hayama character was really enjoyable to watch for this. I also really like when in some of the reactions, the audience isn't certain about the motives of the person who's holding back. And you have to read into their behaviors to determine whether or not they're moving from a space of kindness or greed, maybe. I really enjoyed believing in Hayama the whole time and being rewarded for that. I also really enjoyed that Hayama had to face the consequences of his own actions, the break that occurs between them is well earned from Hayama not being forthright with Shirasaki, who he admires for being such a forthright person. I thought that that landed really well.

Like Ginny, I really like when the show navigates the complicated space that actors have to deal with when they're working in things like this. I'm gonna jump a little bit ahead. There's the filming of the bed scene that they have to do for the show, that they're filming within the show. And I really liked the show being clear about how unsexy a lot of that is because you are having to repeat motions from multiple angles for the sake of getting the correct shots and there's like 30 people around you. It is not a romantic intimate space at all because you're doing work. It's awkward. And I'm really glad that the show captured that specifically, but then also played with it by doing a very stylish zoom in to put us in the perspective of the viewer who's watching this to further confuse us as the audience who has to do the mental work of separating the two. It was a really cool reminder in the middle of a show that then later delivers its own sex scene, which was funny.

NiNi 

There's just so many moments in this show that blew my mind all the way from the beginning to the end. The moment, I believe, the end of the first episode where Hayama walks into the bar and he sees Shirasaki there basically about to make a terrible mistake. He has walked into this gay bar and he's like, I'm just gonna pick up any dude in here. And he's just like, well, let it be me. From that moment on, I was hooked. I was obsessed. It was everything to me. 

Because you're right, that idea of Shirasaki being an unreliable narrator because the way that he's reading Hayama is not necessarily what Hayama is trying to do, but you as the audience member in that moment also can't read Hayama. You don't know what Hayama is trying to do in that moment. You have a sense because of the genre you're in that maybe he's actually interested in him but you don't know for sure. He could be toying with him, could be playing with him, there's all these different things that it could be. But the moment has such amazing tension in it and you want to see what happens next. Straight up, from that moment on I was hooked.

00:35:34 - At 25:00 in Akasaka: It's the Characters for Us

Ben 

So Ginny mentioned that this was a premise that she's been hoping for for a long time. I want you to go through both of the leads and talk about what you enjoyed so much about them separately and together as a pair. Because you've been anticipating this show for a long time.

Ginny 

Both of them are people who struggle to connect with their own emotions. Shirasaki is very blunt and direct and forthright in ways that I think I saw even more clearly on rewatch after seeing him through Hayama's eyes because I think Shirasaki doesn't realize how blunt he is and how that comes across to people. And the narrative through his perspective almost shows that. But then you rewatch it knowing what other people say about him and you're like, damn, he really is. And he says he's never been in love. He doesn't really know what that's like. There's this incredible sequence where he's trying to get into the character confessing his love for the first time where he really has to process it. He doesn't struggle to connect with his own emotions, but he feels, I think, emotionally out of tune with what's considered normal for a lot of people, things like being in love. He just feels a little bit out of step, and uncomfortably so, but it takes him a while to find his way to, this is what liking someone, what loving someone feels like.

Hayama is very much out of touch with his emotions and you find out exactly why when we get to his flashback finally. He's suppressed so many things and he's controlled himself in so many ways and it's acting that really lets him express himself. The scene where they're just like, you're a pretty face, come be on camera. And then what his character has to do is yell in this scene that they've just kind of slotted this this guy in because he's pretty. My heart clutched because I relate to Hayama. I struggle to express emotions strongly. When I took an acting class, I challenged myself on purpose, giving myself a scene where I had to yell because I knew that was going to be very difficult for me. So that moment for Hayama, was like, my God, is he gonna be able to do it? Is it gonna be liberating for him? Is he gonna finally be able to express anger that he's held in his heart for years and just never been able to say? And that is what happened. And I was so happy. 

You really see both of them love acting. The craft and art of acting is so important to them both, emotionally as well as in their career. And that being a strong bond between them once they get over the misunderstandings it creates.

NiNi 

I like how they come at it from different sides as well. For Hayama, acting is not about putting something on, it's about taking layers off. It's about getting naked and being revelatory. Like he can only really be himself when he's pretending to be somebody else. Whereas for Shirasaki, it's more about putting on that persona, trying to get inside the mind of somebody else and then wearing that character. I really liked that juxtaposition for them.

Ben 

I thought it was really interesting that the very first sequence of the show is Shirasaki working in his food service job and being asked by a more shy coworker to tell a rude customer who screwed up his own drink to fuck off and that he wasn't getting a new drink. Because that told us everything we needed to about that character right away with his annoyance at people asking him to be confrontational with other people.

Ginny 

You see how it frustrates him in that context and then the fact that he's able to be confrontational and no one else is kind of developing into the heart of the romantic conflict is just a really beautiful touch.

Ben 

You've watched it twice, Ginny. Do you remember when they had to film that confession scene and Shirasaki was really struggling and they had to come back the next day to film it and so Hayama went to see him that night. Was that episode 3 or was that episode 4?

Ginny 

Yes, I think it was 3. It was definitely 3 or 4, yeah.

Ben 

I really loved that episode so much. Even if Hayama isn't going to say how much he cares about Shirasaki and how important Shirasaki has become to him, I love that his way of helping Shirasaki and also managing his own crush was to just go take care of Shirasaki for an evening, make him feel like somebody gave a shit about him, to give him something to pull on for use in the character. Niihara does such a great job playing an actor who's struggling figuring that out with his time with Hayama, and then finally landing on that feeling in the end. That was such an excellent end to an episode. It's rare that I get to be like super fucking amped about the end of an episode. And I love that that happened early because it then gave us this interesting space to work with with what does he do now that he's realized that he's not just finding the feeling in the character for the other character. He's finding the feeling in himself for his co-star, who he thinks is just doing a solid by him.

Ginny 

That final sequence and the way he tears up when he's saying it was, it was so good.

NiNi 

I like how that episode then goes on to connect to the flashback episode when you finally really get to see Hayama from Shirasaki's point of view but also get to understand Shirasaki a little better by having that interaction with them back in college, I think that he has never thought of the way that he thinks of Hayama as romantic until those moments in episode 3 when he really starts thinking about it. He had this intense connection to him in back in college, it didn't exactly go both ways, it was more that he was so intently focused on him and he felt very strongly that he was this talent and that he needed to be a person who was on screen acting because he did it so well. But he didn't make that connection from that to the romantic feelings that he was feeling even when Hayama comes back into his life, but the two things now when he realizes now what he's feeling for Hayama is romantic and it starts connecting back to all that stuff that happened in college it really resonates it for me as a full circle moment for them and I really like how the show structured that.

Ginny 

There's this amazing callback that I again didn't notice until rewatch. The first time you see Hayama's face, he's doing this model shoot. He's posing, he's looking good, he's handed a bottle of water, everything's great. And then you see Shirasaki waiting to cross the street and looking at a billboard of the result of that shoot. Some girls by him are saying, look at him, look at how beautiful he is. And Shirasaki gets pissed. He's mad because this guy is a wonderful actor. And he feels that strongly. And he wants him to be recognized for that. But he is doing this, I'm just a beautiful face thing, because that's where the industry has put him. And then when we get into Hayama's point of view, we see that shoot again and it's very clear at that point that Hayama feels the same way, that he has let go of something to be here and to do this glamour modeling thing. It's just, it's so tight and so resonant in all the images and moments that it repeats.

00:43:18 - At 25:00 in Akasaka: Hayama and Shirasaki

Ben 

Ginny, I want you to walk us through the goodbye sex that Shirasaki thinks he's having to his leaving and then Hayama coming after him.

Ginny 

So they've wrapped on the show. They had an incident in the previous episode before filming their sex scene where Shirasaki came onto Hayama and they made out a little bit and then Hayama was like, no, I can't do this. And they left. So Shirasaki is still locked firmly into this, “you like someone else,” which he has very good reason to believe. He knows Hayama likes someone and he thinks that it can't possibly be him because it's been going on for so long. So they're saying goodbye and Hayama keeps kind of extending invitations for him to stay but not really being explicit that he wants Shirasaki to stay. And Shirasaki is about to leave when finally Hayama stops him. First he pulls him into a hug and Shirasaki slowly accepts the embrace and accepts that okay, Hayama wants some kind of connection with him here so they go upstairs and they have sex and Shirasaki says, “I love you.”

Hayama does not say it back in that moment. I think in Hayama's mind, his feelings are so clear and so strong that he doesn't need to say them and he doesn't know how to say them. So he accepts it very warmly and they keep having sex and they cuddle and it's beautiful. And then the next morning, Shirasaki leaves because he's still so locked into what he believes is happening, which is that Hayama is hung up on someone else and for whatever reason he wants to have this connection with Shirasaki, but it can't mean anything significant. And he decides he can't do casual, he can't do a one-time thing, he can't sit with that. So he leaves. Thank goodness Hayama runs after him and they clear it up in a great little scene.

NiNi 

I appreciate that this happens after the show is over and they're not co-workers anymore because one of the things I think that Hayama is holding on to and the reason that he doesn't say what he needs to say to Shirazaki right until the very end is that he doesn't know how Shirasaki feels about him, and you don't want to be that guy who has the weird crush on your coworker and makes everybody uncomfortable. I feel like that was part of what was happening. So while yes, in some ways it's sort of this traditional Japanese misunderstanding or Japanese silence that I struggle with in taking a Japanese drama, it didn't bother me here because for me it made sense that these two were not talking to each other about their feelings. It made complete sense to me why Hayama wouldn't say anything and why, because Hayama wasn't saying anything, why Shirasaki would keep all these things to himself as well. 

It's also not a traditional workplace. A set is a weird place. Your emotions have to get involved when you're acting in some ways and you have to be able to regulate yourself. And so there's also that issue of them both wanting to be professionals about this. I really enjoyed how the show let that play out and how it got messy because of that, but they were only able to resolve it after the show was over and that stuff isn't hanging over their heads anymore.

Ginny 

Yeah, it's really, so much more than being coworkers because you're in this, their emotions have to be engaged with each other. They have to have these really intimate and vulnerable performances with each other and acting is such an intense space. It could be disastrous for either of them to confess while they're filming and to have that suddenly throw off the whole balance and the dynamic and the chemistry of this show that they both really want to succeed. So yeah, it's one of the few misunderstandings of this type that is fully justified by the circumstances for me.

Ben 

I think one of my favorite things about Hayama was how he genuinely wanted to get to know Shirasaki more. I really liked the way he instigated the let's fake date so you can get some experience thing to let Shirasaki draw up a list of dates he wanted to go on. I liked that he was gently asking how do you want someone to treat you?

Ginny 

It was so sweet. As obscure as Hayama is as a character until we get his flashback, we do get bits. Like when they had that scene after the first meeting and table read, it's very clear that Hayama retains an impression of Shirasaki much more strongly than Shirasaki thinks he would. And he's kind to him. There's this interaction with their other coworker where Hayama can tell immediately that Shirasaki has taken some light teasing in a bad way. And he immediately works to reach out and soothe him and say, I think that was his way of being friendly or trying to tease. And then at the end of their first date, I think it's their first date, when Shirasaki finally calls him Asami-san, his face, Hayama's face, is so subtly illuminated with joy at that. It gave me chills to watch. It's so beautiful. So you can see what he feels even though he's delivering everything in this incredibly held back way. It's so good!

00:49:05 - At 25:00 in Akasaka: Filmmaking and Production

Ben 

Since Ginny is here, let's talk about What Did You Eat Yesterday? and how Hayama lives in Kohinata's apartment.

NiNi 

You! My god! That is a great segue into, you know I always enjoy talking about Japanese set design and set dressing and everything. I want to talk about their two apartments. Well, Hayama's house and Shirasaki's apartment. Because to me they're just so them. Hayama lives in this big, very modern, very stylish house that's so empty. It doesn't have a lot of stuff in it. There's all this negative space in his house and all these dark corners.

Shirasaki's place is much smaller and more compact, but it doesn't feel very homey either. It feels kind of like a place that he's putting his body in, but not somewhere that really feels like a home. And whenever they're in each other's spaces, they instantly feel more homey. Shirasaki is there and Hayama's place, the lights get brighter and warmer and he's taking up space in a place where there's all this negative space. When Hayama comes over to Shirasaki's house again the place feels warm and it starts to feel more likely of somebody living there and not just somebody staying there. It's something that they've done with the lighting that really resonated to me. 

One of the first things that I mentioned when I started talking about the show with you guys was how much I enjoyed the camera work. All this is all of a part of it.

Ben 

I also loved that once again we got a Japanese apartment where someone had a big TV and it got used. Huge win.

NiNi 

Ben is devoted to the big TV life, okay? He is a film critic. He needs to see things on the big screen.

Ben

Another huge W from me. Not only did they finally use that big ass TV that I've seen across What Did You Eat Yesterday? for two seasons, but we also got to see them enjoy it. I was so happy about this. You have no idea. It was interesting too, because whenever we see that apartment in What Did You Eat Yesterday?, we basically only see the kitchen and dining area and a shot of Wataru on the couch while Kohinata is cleaning up in the background. It was cool seeing that apartment from different angles. It was cool seeing people cooking together actively in that particular apartment. And we got to go upstairs. I've been wondering what the upstairs of that apartment looked like.

NiNi 

It is interesting to see how locations get used differently. While we're talking about going upstairs in the house and seeing the bedroom and that area of the house, let's talk about the camera movements that took us there. One of the things—I think Ben, you and I talked about this a little bit when we talked about Tokyo in April Is…—one of the things that sometimes puts me at a little bit of a remove from the Japanese dramas is static camera. Sometimes it works really well for what the show is. And sometimes I am just antsy to watch the camera move. 

In this show the camera moves, it sweeps, it takes you on a journey with the characters. So going upstairs into the bedroom in Hayama's place, that's a journey that the camera takes you on in a way that I have not seen in a lot of Japanese dramas. Personally, that is a style that I really enjoy, the sweep of the camera, the use of the space, the use of light, the use of sound and music, the use of all the locations. When they actually go on location to shoot the show. they've got these locations like this little cafe and this outdoor garden space. And the way that they film them really worked. They get you inside the characters emotions, get you inside the characters heads when they're in these spaces.

Ben 

This was a really satisfying show. I think it was one of the most satisfying viewing experiences we got to have this year. I thought it was really cool seeing a show that people were initially worried about because it felt like it had the same sort of premise as I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama where you've got a struggling actor and a rising idol paired together in a BL and likely has more feelings for the other actor than the other actor notices right away. I was worried at first that it would feel trite, but I really liked that those shows feel very distinct from each other. They do not feel like the same thing happening.

Ginny 

They're very much each their own thing and each wonderful. But yeah, telling completely different stories, even though if you summarize in three sentences, they sound identical.

00:53:25 - At 25:00 in Akasaka: Final Thoughts and Ratings

NiNi 

I want to talk a little bit about Yamase because we haven't talked about Yamase at all.

Ginny 

Can we talk about how Yamase was auditioning for the role of Japanese Payu?I rewatched it after that announcement and I was like, it all makes sense now.

Ben 

Ha ha ha ha!

NiNi 

The character of Yamase, I really appreciated his role in the story and how he was really like gung-ho. He's like, look, I got bills to pay, I got things to do, I'm going to do my best with this role. They want me to be the one who comes in here and really puts a wrench in the thing between the two characters. I'm gonna do that on and off set.

Ben 

I think his character worked really well because the show wanted to reiterate kind of the same thing that happened in BL Drama Main where Ayanagi Hajime is talking to the female co-star who's playing the big sis role. He's speaking about this hypothetical situation where he and his co-star are making out with each other and she's like, “That's wrong. You shouldn't do that. Is someone doing this to you right now?”

Like he was another reminder of that, of this is fiction and we're having fun, but on the real, this is what it looks like when a co-star is being really aggressive about this sort of stuff, where he was forcing closeness with Shirasaki the whole time by using his given name, even though he was saying don't do that. And then trying to mack on him outside of filming. It was supposed to read as aggressive and unwanted and uncomfortable. And I really liked the show letting the audience consider that. Like, yeah, we're going to be having a great time with these two guys. But also, this is what it possibly looks like outside of this to the people who have to work with them and take care of them.

Ginny 

It shows you again, like, this is what neither of them want to be. This is part of why they're both being so careful not to reveal their actual feelings.

NiNi 

Ben talked earlier about how the sex scene of the characters inside the BL drama that is being filmed inside the BL drama, how that sex scene was filmed where they did the push in to put you inside the moment and then they pull back out to show you all the stuff that was going on on set while this is happening. They did a couple moments like that in the show that I found really effective. And one of those moments is Yamase being really really aggressive with Shirasaki where he's sort of looming over him and he pushes him up against the wall and he makes out with him. At first instance you aren't quite sure whether that's a moment in the BL drama they're filming or a moment in the show and then it pulls out and you see that that's a take of a scene that they were doing. But the camera deliberately wants to confuse you occasionally to make you think, “this is okay in fiction, but why would we think this would be okay in real life? Or why would we think this would not be okay in real life?” It's about making the audience really stop and think about their own immersion in these stories, and about what it must be like for the actors.

Ginny (

They played a lot with the ambiguity of the camera in that particular episode with both the kiss scenes with Hayama and Yamase where you see in one case a mutually agreed on practice kiss and in one case one that Yamase  is really trying to push for and you get a few back and forths of reality. Which does everything that you said, Nini and also I think really underlines the emotional complexity, when it's Hayama and Shirasaki's kiss, of their having this experience together and neither of them is fully clear on what feelings are real and what feelings are acting. It's muddled up together in a way that feels very true to where the characters are both at emotionally at that point.

NiNi 

I love Actors on Actors. It's one of my favourite genres of drama, film, whatever it is. And this is an incredible execution of Actors on Actors.

Ben 

Genuinely, think Niihara who plays Shirasaki gives a really, really excellent performance. I think he had a really difficult task with this character and I thought he did a really good job. No shade of any sort to the work of Komagine Kiita who played Hayama. He does a great job too and they work really together well together as a team. But I was really impressed with Niihara. Really standout performance this year for me.

NiNi 

Yeah, I give it to Niihara. Like you said, no shade. I have to equally give it to Komagine Kiita because Hayama is a difficult character. He's so internal. It is such a hard thing to get his interiority across in a way where he maintains that mystery and reserve, but you can also feel something else underneath the surface. I thought it was an excellent performance.

Ben 

We could probably keep gushing about this production, but let's rate this sucker. NiNi!

NiNi 

Come on bestie, you know it's a 10.

Ben 

Ginny.

Ginny

It's a 10.

Ben 

I genuinely don't know what happened. Like I have it as a 9.5 on my MDL, but I wrote a 10 in my initial notes. I don't remember what I was angsting over afterwards.

Ginny 

It's funny, because I had it as a 9.5, and then when I went back to rewatch it, I was like, why? It's a 10.

Ben 

I'll stick with my second rating of 9.5, but we'll give it a 10 from The Conversation because we loved it so much. Good job to 25 Ji Akasaka.

NiNi 

Great show, phenomenally done.

00:58:45 - The State of J-BL

NiNi

Going back through two of these now, what can we say about them and the theme of the show, which is misunderstandings? Or what or any other theme that we think that these two share?

Ben 

I think it's notable in our reflections on both shows that we have a really strong read on what's going on between Hayama and Shirasaki the whole time that we did not express while we were watching Ayaka.

NiNi

I'm, like, contemplating.

Ben

I'd say like if we're gonna handle these are two shows where for various reasons, the couple was facing professional barriers that kept them from each other. It's interesting for me that both shows force us to think about the actual presence of queer people in the world by making sure that we spend time in queer spaces, in bars in particular, and considering the kinds of people who go there and what this means to be in those spaces. Ayaka was kind of silly about it and didn't seem to really know what to do with that. I don't know that 25 Ji wanted to do too much with that other than being clear that BL doesn't exist in a nebulous vacuum world. I'm not certain I have a really strong linking observation beyond that

NiNi

I did like that in, I felt like I knew who all these characters were instantly. I understood them. Even when their stories or their backstories in the case of Haroko didn't quite line up for me. I felt like I understood who she was. I felt like I understood in some ways where she was coming from. All the characters just felt really clear, excellently performed.

Ben 

Here's a real question for Ginny. You mentioned when we were coming into the end of last year how you were starting to gain an appreciation for some of the Japanese shows. Where are you sitting with your feelings about Japanese shows, reflecting on these two in particular?

Ginny 

I still think when the Japanese shows do well, they do better than almost anyone else. Stellar across the line, top notch work. One of the reasons I remember being so wowed by Japanese BL at the end of last year is that every one of them had been good. And there've been a lot more mediocre or bad Japanese GL and BL shows that I've watched this year. So I'm less feeling like, well, if I show up to one, I know it's going to be solid. One thing I've learned is that I need to binge them. Watching week to week is a much more frustrating experience, partly because of the episode length. Just 20 minutes once a week is not enough story. I'm always wanting more and frustrated.

25 Ji, I think I did watch in real time because it's so dense and every episode is so packed with material that it really was satisfying week to week. But that's the exception instead of the rule for me.

NiNi 

I have to concur with you on the bingeing. When it comes to the shorter shows, Japanese shows, Korean shows especially, I find it easier to binge because of the length but also because those stories are written in such a way that the week between feels incredibly long but also almost unnecessary. I don't find myself most of the time needing to sit in a Japanese episode or a Korean episode the way that I found myself needing to sit in some other shows. And like you, I found 25 Ji to be an exception to that. At the end of an episode of 25 Ji, I needed to take a breath and really unpack a little bit what I had taken in, found it lingering with me over the course of the week.

Ben 

I will continue to be watching them as they release. That's what I do baby! I've been watching this stuff this way for so long, I just can't do it any other way. That is a feature, not a bug for me. I am really glad at this point that we are no longer struggling constantly with trying to access every Japanese show that we want to watch, though it is still a phenomenon we have to deal with. I am very glad that the state of the genre calls for multiple Japanese entertainment outlets to be engaged in making a lot of stuff.

Whether I like or don't like a Japanese show, I never have nebulous feelings about it. I'm never searching for what really worked or didn't work. It's always a very clear choice that the show made that either worked for me or really did not. And I like that I can always be really, I can always hone in on exactly what I want to say about these shows and I can point to the specific moments where the breakdown or uplift occurred. That continues to be, I think, my favorite aspect of watching the Japanese shows.

I'm glad we talked about these two, even if I was really frustrated with one. Thank you for joining us, Ginny.

Ginny 

Thank you for having me.

NiNi 

That is gonna wrap us up on, what are we calling this episode? I have a placeholder name as usual. The placeholder name is Japanese Telephone. 

Ben 

We are absolutely not calling it that.

NiNi

We're not calling it that. So that is going to wrap us up on this episode, which Ben will give a much better name when we actually post it.

So with that, we out. Say bye to the people, Ginny.

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben 

Peace!

[the-conversation-pod]

Pulpmania: We Are and Knock Knock, Boys!

AND WE'RE BACK!

Join us this week as we discuss the nature and definition of a BL pulp, their role in the industry, and a comparison between two recent projects. We're joined by long-time fandom watcher @twig-tea to discuss We Are and Knock Knock, Boys!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:05:56 – We Are: The Branded Pairs 00:14:37 – We Are: A Rorschach Test of a Show 00:30:47 – We Are: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:38:21 – Knock Knock, Boys! 00:48:39 – Knock Knock, Boys!: Sex Positivity 00:55:51 – Knock Knock, Boys!: Our Fab Four (and Jane) 01:09:58 – Knock Knock, Boys!: Final Thoughts and Ratings 01:14:54 – Importance of Pulps as Labs

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00 – Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

01:15 – Introduction

Ben 

And we're back. This week we have brought our good friend @twig-tea back with us. Say hello, Twig.

Twig 

Hi everyone!

Ben 

Twig, who has watched way too many shows—far more than me—is joining us to talk about two pulps this week. We're gonna be talking about We Are the series from GMMTV and Knock Knock, Boys! from WeTV.

Before we get into that, I think it'll be very beneficial for us to set a baseline on what a pulp is. Twig, you've watched over 600 BLs. How would you describe a pulp, considering most BL is basically indie cinema?

Twig 

One of the things that's characteristic of a pulp is normally low production values and formulaic plots; but formulaic plots, you could argue, is kind of one of the defining features of BL. So, when I think about what a pulp is in the BL space, I'm usually thinking about particularly inferior writing, sensationalist beyond the normal level of unrealistic storylines, racy, and anything that's, like, particularly cheap-looking or feeling.

Ben 

I feel like a lot of the times we're using pulp as a way to—maybe not intentionally—but it ends up being like a derisive way to refer to a project. And for me, if I'm describing something as a pulp, I'm talking about something that felt like it was very quickly produced to turn money—where it doesn't feel like there were a lot of people in the room who are overly concerned about individual choices that went down in the production and how they contributed to a whole. You can feel, sometimes, that different groups worked on different parts of a project, ‘cause some parts of it work really well, but maybe don't connect to others.

NiNi 

So, I have not watched 600 BLs. But my definition of a pulp, I'm thinking lower production values. But to me, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think that when you are looking at a piece of work that doesn't have a lot of budget, it can bring out some really interesting things in the production depending on how creative people can get. And I think that's a good way to look at it going into these two in particular, because on the one hand, you've got a pulp that probably did spend quite a little bit of money. And on the other hand, you have a pulp that clearly didn't have a lot of money to spend, but used its money well. So to me, the low budget aspect, or the minimal production aspect of things, doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

Twig 

Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think the characteristics of a pulp are about how it feels, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad. I feel like people use the word ‘pulp’ whenever they just mean that a show is bad, and that's not the same thing.

NiNi 

I don't watch nearly as much as you guys. What are some of your top pulps? What are some of the pulps that you'll always watch?

Ben 

Make It Right, every time.

Twig 

Yes! Cosigned.

NiNi 

That is a great one.

Ben 

Despite our impending conversation, I still feel very positively about Make It Right.

NiNi 

What about you, Twig?

Twig 

I wasn't ready for this question and I always take forever to answer a ‘favorites’ question. So, I will say my favorite one that I've seen recently, the one that I still think about every so often after watching it, was Lady Boyfriends. I talked about it in the last season’s Grab Bag episode. It was a remake from 2014, and it has a lot of problems, but it's still doing a lot of really interesting things.

NiNi 

My favorite pulp is always gonna be Love By Chance. Love by Chance is extremely problematic in a lot of ways, but it's got a lotta heart to it.

Ben 

So much New Siwaj references in a lot of this. I think my other one will probably be... probably Rainbow Prince.

Twig 

Ahh Rainbow Prince is so good! See, Ben's actually naming good shows, I'm just naming weird shows. [Ben laughs]

NiNi 

I always tread lightly when Rainbow Prince is brought up on the show, because I still have not finished watching it and Ben will not let me rest until I finish watching it. 

Ben 

That is much to your chagrin.

NiNi 

And he is correct. I just gotta find the time.

Ben

Mm mm.

All right, so let's stop dancing around this thing. Let's dive into it.

05:56 – We Are: The Branded Pairs

NiNi

We'll start by talking about We Are. Ben, break it down for us. What is We Are about?

Ben 

We Are the series is about how GMMTV can make so much money by just putting boys that people like in front of you in an almost plotless device for 16 weeks. 

We Are the series is about a group of college students who are in two different schools that are vaguely connected to each other by one person in common. Through a series of interactions two of them come into conflict-slash-flirtation immediately between an art student and an engineer. Other guys have crushes on each other. And much of the show is about the slow matriculation of these crushes through the BL TikTok filter.

NiNi 

What is the BL TikTok filter?

Ben 

It's the fact that all of the sequences are filmed with the boys as close to each other in the center frame so they fit on a vertical phone for the quick hits on TikTok.

NiNi 

[sing song voice] The more you know.

Ben 

Well, it's about virality. The head of GMMTV has said that they no longer care about ratings. What they care about is virality. They care about hitting those kilig moments to make sure that you get all the butterflies you wanna feel. And they're going to blast that moment into socials so that it goes viral—the same way the gifmakers on Tumblr are going to rush to gif the most BL moment of the episode so that they can be first to get the notes—it’s the same thing that GMMTV is doing. As soon as that episode ends, they're gonna be on YouTube with the highlights and they're gonna be on TikTok and Instagram with the short reel so that those can go viral and get pushed out and they can draw more viewers to their socials to gain more advertising dollars as a result. And to maximize that on the thin frame of the vertical screen, almost all of your big BL moments now are gonna be filmed like you're watching a TV show from the 1960s and we're still on 4 by 3 screens again because the frame is so narrow on a phone.

NiNi 

I am not of the social media generation, so it's always fascinating to hear how this stuff has moved on while I have ignored it. [laughs]

So, let's get into the show itself. So, as Ben intimated, this is a show with a lot of boys and... multiple friend groups coalescing together into a whole. And along the way there's a lot of little romances. There are four main couples in this thing. GMMTV, what they've done here is that they have utilized casting as a shortcut for certain things, which I actually thought was kind of a smart way to use casting. 

We talked before, maybe a couple of episodes ago about the art/commerce nexus, and I talked a little bit about why because of it, the branded pair system doesn't bother me as much as it bothers others. I thought this was actually a good use of branded pairs if you're trying to get people to watch something—putting a show together that relies on your affection for some of these people. It really helped pull you along through the show until it got to the point where the show itself started to pull you along. I thought that was really clever, actually.

Twig 

I guess, if you're accepting the premise that we're not gonna use writing to do that, [laughs] which is the part that I'm upset about, but maybe I'm jumping ahead.

Ben 

Before we get there—twig-tea, you're an archivist who's been watching the genre for like 20-plus years. How about you walk us through the four major pairs of boys that are in this and how their current pairing in this show reflects the way they've been branded previously?

Twig 

There are four central relationships in this show. Phum and Peem, played by Pond and Phuwin. PondPhuwin have been a branded pair for, I want to say three years.

NiNi 

Started in Fish Upon the Sky.

Twig 

Have been in Never Let Me Go, and then the Our Skyy episode for Never Let Me Go, as well. They also do a ton of branded pair things in between their shows and have played in heterosexual series in between their appearances in BL. Pond and Phuwin tend to play…how do I describe this dynamic? 

Ben 

They really like for Phuwin to be low-key pissy about something all the time and for Pond to smile back at him for it.

NiNi 

It's a grump and a simp.

Twig 

Yeah, Grump and Simp. Thank you. 

The next one is Q and Toey, played by Winny and Satang.

NiNi 

They first appeared in Fish Upon the Sky as well.

Ben 

They have a minor appearance together in Star in My Mind.

NiNi 

They were kind of pre-paired in Fish Upon the Sky. Like, there was like a thing, but it didn't actually turn into a thing.

Twig 

They first appeared as a firm couple with any real time on camera in My School President in 2022. That was a rivals-to-lovers storyline. In We Are, they've changed it up, which was actually quite refreshing, and the relationship between WinnySatang is a mentor-mentee relationship. It's Winny who's the grumpier character, and Satang plays a very actually happy-go-lucky outgoing character that is very different to their appearance in My School President, so it's interesting to see them do something different. 

Aou and Boom play Tan and Fang. They first appeared in…Enchanté? But I don't think they actually got together in Enchanté.

Ben 

I gotta be honest, I don't remember.

NiNi 

I do not remember anything about Enchanté.

[all laugh]

Twig 

I want to say it was mostly unrequited with a hint of them getting together at the end, but don't hold me to that. I really don't remember very well.

Ben 

I do know that we saw them properly together in Hidden Agenda.

Twig 

Before that they were very heavily shipped in Vice Versa. And I think they got, like, one, like, cheek kiss at the end of Vice Versa. And then Hidden Agenda, that was their first, the show where they were properly a couple. Now what do I remember about them in Hidden Agenda? [laughs] 

`Ben

Nothing!

Twig 

That show is so forgettable.

Ben 

They had an interesting thing in Hidden Agenda, because you had Aou playing a known closeted jock type character who really cared about his boyfriend but was incapable of coming out of the closet, and it caused real strain in their relationship.

Twig 

Yeah. So they had an extra lot of angst because they were an established couple but couldn't be seen together. Most of the time we saw them was about that, about the tension in their relationship.

NiNi 

The best thing that happened in Hidden Agenda, easily.

Twig 

Interestingly in We Are, they play a couple that, apparently in the book, was an established couple, but they rolled that back so we got to see them get together. The dynamic is a little flipped almost, where Aou plays the very heavy simping character, and Fang is just sort of bemused by his energy and into him, but not nearly as effusive.

NiNi 

It's a puppy-kitten dynamic.

Twig 

There you go, puppy-kitten. [laughs] 

And then the last couple, ChainPun, played by Mark and Poon. Poon had to come in very last minute to replace Mark's former branded pair partner, who he's been with since My Gear and Your Gown—which was 2020, so actually quite a long time. 

But I will say that Poon stepped in and did a great job blending with the whole group and I would say after watching the series I could not tell where they had to reshoot and fit stuff in. That was one thing that I think they handled really well.

14:37 – We Are: A Rorschach Test of a Show

Ben 

I'm just gonna transition us to the next part pretty awkwardly. I did not like this show, and I had to drop it after five weeks because it was pissing me off. Because the two of you finished this show—I want to hear about what was holding you into the show before I start picking at it. 

We'll start with you, NiNi, because you loved this show so much. This show...upheld your psyche for like four months. How? Why? Please!

NiNi 

[laughs] It did, it did. It's a combination of things. For me, it came at exactly the right time and hit exactly the right buttons in me, in terms of what I needed at the time. And even looking back on it now, even though I'm a little ways out of what I was going through at the time, I still find it quite comforting.

The two big parts of it that I really, really love. I love the way that the center of this show is about the friendship, it's about the multiple friend groups and how they become this one big friend group. This one group of silly boys who just enjoy each other's company so much and wanna spend all their time together. It's got this kind of a real time nostalgia element to it where I could see this show being somebody's reminiscence about a time in their life that they want to remember incredibly fondly. When they were young and they had this big group of friends and all they wanted to do is hang out with their friends and have a ton of fun. 

I described it when I was writing about the show while it was airing as giving me Hospital Playlist vibes. Hospital Playlist is a Korean drama about this group of friends who are all doctors working at the same hospital, and it's just about their lives, and them bringing people in, and them falling in love with people. I'm not saying that this is at the Hospital Playlist level, but it gave me the same energy, and Hospital Playlist is one of my favourite dramas of all time. So I enjoyed that aspect of it. 

The other aspect of it that I really enjoyed, this is part where I was talking about where they use the actors that you love to sort of pull you along until the story takes over from that. Tan and Fang, as Twig said, they get together during the show. And at first you don't understand why and how and what is even happening there. And then I think it's episode nine, so it’s just a little past the halfway mark of the show, that Tan tells his friends the story of him and Fang, how they met and how they got together. And it makes you understand everything that's gone before and everything that the show is trying to do in terms of how it's trying to organize itself. 

I had so many thoughts about it, like, is there another way that they could have done this to front load this? Like I said, it's more than halfway through the show and you have to get there. And if you don't, if the show is not pulling you along to that point, then you're not gonna get there. But, it changed everything. 

The show is fluffy, and it's sweet, and it's just very wholesome. And I really responded to it. Just talking about it now, I feel kind of a glow. I enjoyed it a whole lot. 

I'll save some of the other stuff for when we're actually talking about New Siwaj and how New Siwaj constructs shows and why this show worked for me in some ways that some other New Siwaj shows haven’t.

Ben 

I was gonna say, are we excusing a New Siwaj flashback to justify an Episode 5 reveal four episodes later all of a sudden? Please play the Double Savage recording, man in the booth.

NiNi 

No, no, no, no, no, that's entirely different. [Ben laughs]

And that's what I'm talking about when I say that how they actually used the actors, and the casting, and the branded pairs in this was actually a really smart use if that is how New wanted to do it. 

I appreciate New Siwaj as a creator. He pisses me off, but I appreciate him. One of the reasons that he pisses me off is that he has great narrative strengths in some ways. He also has a lot of respect for, like, the minutiae and the details of daily life and shenanigans between friends, which I appreciate, but I find interfere with his narratives when he's working on something that's narratively focused. 

To me, what happened here is that this was not at all narratively focused. What he did here is the same thing that he always does. It's a big group of friends just hangin’ out with each other, the minutiae of their daily life. But it's not interfering with a narrative that I wanna get back to. And so I can just sit in the vibe of it. To me, if New wants to write a narrative show, I want it to be narrative. And now I've realized that if New wants to sit in a vibe, he actually knows how to do it.

Ben 

Twig, you finished this show. Why?

Twig 

I finished it for two reasons. One, I'm a completionist. And so I finished it for the reason why I watch a lot of shows that I don't like. Spoiler: I didn't like this. [laughs] And that was so that I can understand what it did to the end and fit it into my internal understanding of what's happening with the genre at any given time.

I summed up both reasons in one thing. I spent a lot of the time watching the show trying to figure out what it was trying to do, why it wasn't working for me, and thinking about how it fits in in the wider context of what's happening in Thai BL. 

Ben 

We heard NiNi's reasons for why she loved it so much. Please detail for us why you had such a difficult time with it.

Twig 

NiNi alluded to it a little bit. This show is not narratively driven; there's no throughline, and that's the reason why I watch television, is for a story. The way that I watch shows is I'm paying attention to what characters are doing in the scene I'm watching, but I'm always thinking about how they connect to the scenes before, what that could mean for the future. And this show gave me nothing for my brain to grip onto. Scene to scene, things were happening that were fun to watch, but I couldn't enjoy them because I was thinking about how they didn't connect to the scenes before. And I was getting frustrated by that. And then I would get sort of bored because a scene in isolation isn't interesting to me. I ended up, like, spacing out a lot and then having to rewind, and then realizing after rewinding that nothing had actually happened, and I didn't have to rewind at all. [laughs] Didn't miss anything. 

So it was a really frustrating watch for me just because of the way my brain works and processes shows. The show takes place in—it's not just a BL bubble—I almost call it like a plot bubble. Almost nothing bad happens. And any conflict that does arise is resolved within an episode. I understand why that would be comforting and relaxing to some people, but for me, I found it very anxiety-inducing, because I was constantly thinking about,  why is nothing happening? What is going to come? And there was nothing to be worried about. I wouldn't say necessarily that my experience of the show is a reflection on the show, but it is about how and why I watch shows. This show was not for me. 

I do want to challenge NiNi's comparison to Hospital Playlist, because I also have seen and loved Hospital Playlist, and the reason why I loved that show and couldn't get into this show was because Hospital Playlist has a very clear throughline. And that was the main thing that was missing for me in this. The part where it took nine episodes to get to the backstory, I found frustrating. And the part that bothered me most about that was that the reveals weren't rewarding you for having paid attention to anything that happened before. It didn't feel like they connected to things we'd seen but didn't yet understand. It didn't feel like the show was grounded in a story that it was laying groundwork for. It was just leading to particular scenes. 

We were often told that this is why a character's reacting that way, but there was nothing previously that made me understand it or told me that it made sense. Like, we're told that Fang is a bad boyfriend because he isn't attentive or doesn't show affection for Tan, but I don't think we ever see that before they tell us that, other than in the episode where they tell us that that's a thing. We mostly see him just be really fond of Tan the whole time, so I was really confused by why suddenly he's apologizing for being a problem.

NiNi 

That's definitely, like, not where I went with that.

Twig 

And the Q and Toey conflict happens because Q is upset that Toey didn't tell him that he was his secret Post-It note buddy and his first love. We're told that Q was stressing over feeling conflicted about his feelings for the cafe Post-It Boy and Toey, and then it turns out they're the same person. But we didn't see any of that conflict in any of the episodes that came before. So his anger felt like it came out of nowhere. It was justified within the episode, but we hadn't laid any groundwork for it. 

That was sort of my experience the whole time. It felt like I was watching 16 specials of a show that I didn't see. So, I've always felt like I was missing context for whatever was happening, even though I'd watched the whole show. It was an uncomfortable watching experience.

NiNi 

Twig is actually correct about that thing. It's just, in terms of how we interpreted it, we interpreted it in two different directions. The show treats the audience like they're a member of the friend group and not an omniscient observer of any kind. As the characters learn things about each other and their backstories, that's the same time that the audience is learning it. So the show in that sense has, like, a little hint of immersion, doesn't give you hints before. If a character is gobsmacked, so are you. If a character is surprised by something happening, so are you. For me, that works, for Twig it doesn’t. And I completely understand.

The show is almost kind of like a Rorschach in that way. Like, it depends on what things about media you like, how you like to consume media, what are things that you enjoy that you don't enjoy in media. I like sitting in a vibe. The show is a vibe for me. Like I get to see people just kind of hang out and do their thing and be themselves.

I really responded to that. And so the lack of narrative drivers and groundwork laying and all those kinds of things that if it was a more narratively focused show that I would be looking for, once I started to feel the vibe that the show was going for, I was able to sit back and just soak in it and enjoy that part of it. 

Twig is quite correctly identifying what the show is doing. It's just that worked for me and it didn't work for her.

Twig 

Yeah, it just hit us both really differently. I think that's valid.

Ben 

The show did nothing! And for that, I despise it. [Twig laughs]

Here's the thing. There is so much BL to watch. The idea that I'm gonna spend nine weeks to figure out what the deal is with these boys is just not gonna happen for me. There's too much to fuckin’ watch. And there was no driving angst or drama to any of this. 

We mentioned Make It Right as the big pulp we love from New Siwaj. In that show, there is real drama with the boys’ relationships. Both of our major pairs of boys have very unfortunate first times that create a lot of confusion between them in their relationships that they have to work through while also dealing with the coming-of-age pains of being a teenage boy. 

And there was really just no drama for me to hang on to this. The only real thread that the show had early on was like...Pond’s character punking Phuwin’s character about demanding indentured servitude for inflicting medical expenses on him for kicking him in the nuts or some shit. I just found that to be deeply repellent because I don't find slavery narratives cute? Like, you must work for me or whatever shit. No, I do not find that as a fun way to turn stuff into romance. And I got deeply put off in episode five with Aou's character confessing to Boom's character, and Boom's character cutting off the confession. Because it felt like every time the show was coming close to an important core emotional reveal about a character, it intentionally interrupted the moment to avoid any sort of specificity—and winking at the audience to be like, you know what this is.

That may be fun for some people, but I found it boring, because it means that there's nothing specific about these characters to hang on to. That was the point where I just couldn't deal with this anymore. They took all the B- and C-list BL boys at GMMTV and dumped them in a 16-week, basically, hangout project of IG reels to fulfill a financial obligation to iQIYI. 

That's the thing I want to talk about here, too. This was not like a freemium product on YouTube. You had to pay money to watch this for like the first month and a half before they started rerunning it on YouTube. So people were paying premium dollars on iQIYI to watch, essentially, a show about just guys hanging out. I was bored by it because these guys weren't that interesting. The most interesting thing we had with any of the guys going on was Phuwin's character's angst about his art not measuring up to what he wanted it to be. That was about it. 

It was frustrating for me seeing so many people raving about this because there was really just so much of nothing here. It felt like the ideal kind of pocket gay. New usually has interesting things to say about the queer experience in one way, shape, or form. Even in the shows we've talked about on here that we didn't like, like A Boss and a Babe, had some interesting ideas about queer reality that I just did not feel from this show in the first five weeks. I put over five hours into a show that had nothing to say. That's more than enough. That's longer than a J-BL. 

It's fine as, like, background noise, I guess, but I need to care about something going on in the show if I'm gonna sit down and pay attention to it and invest my emotional energy into it. I can't marinate in a show like this. There's nothing to think about for me, and everything I did think about felt kind of insidious. Like, what's the point of these gays clumping in a world where there's no problems with being gay? The reason we clump is because we're ostracized, because we're the only people who will tolerate each other. Why does that occur in these situations where there is no reason for gay people to feel weird about being gay? That's one of the constant frustrations I've been having with these sort of bubble shows. I can't feel gay empathy and connection with these stories because some of the foundation is missing.

30:47 – We Are: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

I'm just very frustrated about this experience and what it means going forward, because this was probably super cheap to film and they probably turned a tidy profit on this. So that means there will be a lot more of this. And it's called Perfect Ten Liners, there will be 30 episodes of this. I'm looking forward to your report on that one, NiNi.

NiNi 

I think I'm only gonna watch one of those stories, actually. I see how there's a line from this to Perfect Ten Liners and it's also being done by New Siwaj. But for me, given GMMTV's now stated goal of, they're not tracking ratings, they're tracking socials, given what that means for how they're looking at some of their projects going forward, I don't think it's going to be everything that they do. But yes, they're gonna do more of these. And if they're gonna do more of these, I think as far as a template this is probably one of the better templates, ‘cause there are other ways that this could have gone. This one was balanced in a way that works. I don't think from what I've seen coming out of Perfect Ten Liners or so far it's going to be balanced in the same way. 

GMMTV is experimenting with the art commerce thing, sort of more leaning towards the commerce because that's what GMMTV is. I can't call them a CBS because they don't have that kind of thing, but they're like the CW, let's say, of Thai youth media. This is what you get from CW sometimes. If I didn't see other things coming both inside and outside of GMMTV, I would probably be more concerned, but for me there's so much out there right now. There's a ton of variety lately, I don't watch nearly as much as you two, and that's maybe part of the rest of it as well. For me, somebody who watches maybe 15 to 20 shows a year, it's just part of the constellation and it doesn't feel like a canary in the coal mine kind of thing, but that's just me.

Ben 

See, but the difficulty is we're seeing this in a lot of the shows, though. There's been this constant thing with not even just GMMTV, but they're sidestepping having to say things about gay shit in these shows. We talked about it in 23.5, we talked about it in Only Boo. The concern for me is, apparently, We Are the Series did really well. And GMMTV is brutal about what they're gonna fund. They're gonna fund the shit that's gonna make them money. If this sort of ungrounded fluff is what makes the money, that's what they're gonna make. 

The problem for me with fluff is I need to feel like the characters suffered to earn it. And there's not a sense that the fluff here is earned. There is a notion that is kind of romantic that, yeah, gay guys could just be just guys bein’ dudes. But mmph, did this feel weirdly alien while I was watching it. And I was really repulsed by it. That sucks because I like everybody involved. I just could not enjoy this at all and was deeply frustrated by it the entire time.

Twig 

To pick up something that you were saying, Ben, I think NiNi is right that the friendship as the core of the show is one of the better things about it, but one of the reasons why that wasn't enough for me is because I couldn't read this as found family because there was nothing for them to unite against? There was nothing for them to be there for each other about. There was no challenge to that friendship. They just ate a lot of barbecue and traveled a lot. I couldn't believe that they would last because they hadn't experienced anything to actually challenge that. You don't necessarily have to have it in the show. The show can be all fluffy, but if there's nothing even in the history to support that these guys have been through it together, then it's hard to know how they would respond to an actual problem.

NiNi 

So all that said, do we actually rate this because it's very clear that there's a dichotomy, not just within the group here talking about it now, but generally about the show. I'm not sure if a rating is useful. What do you guys think?

Ben 

In terms of where I always recommend from, I always rate on the, do I think people should watch this? Who do I think this show is for? I think I dropped this show at a 4 because I was really repulsed by it. I don't think that's fair reflective to the technical work that went into it, but for the type of reader that I think I'm trying to speak to, I can’t even  recommend this show at all. I found the whole experience rather empty. I don't go to TV to fill the show with my own, I'm smarter than the people who wrote this stuff or I will fill in the gap stuff. I don't like doing that in gay shows, so. I can't recommend this show. Not to the viewer I think I'm speaking to.

NiNi 

Twig, how about you?

Twig 

I don't always rate everything, so I really struggle to rate this. I'd probably put it at like a 6? I don't wanna take away from the fact that there are people who don't watch shows like I do who found this very comforting. Like you were saying, it's about what you're looking for in shows and how you watch them. 

But the part that's frustrating for me is that there was so much time we could have used to tell a story. [laughs] And so, I find it hard to forgive that. We don't actually get a lot of 16 episode hour-long shows, so it's hard for me to not begrudge the time.

NiNi

Obviously, I enjoyed this a lot more than you guys did, but I have two different ratings for it, actually. On terms of the enjoyability of it for me, it's hovering somewhere around like an 8.5, 9. But on the technical merits of the show, I would probably max it out at a 7.

Twig 

If I was going by my enjoyment, it would be a 4. [laughs] It was honestly painful for me to watch this.

NiNi 

That's valid, friend, that's valid. Two out of three means that it's not a recommend from The Conversation.

Ben 

I don't think we need to give it a harsh number rating, but legit, what's the angst of this show? What's the story? What are the drama here? I don't know, if you don't feel like swiping IG, put this on instead.

38:21 – Knock Knock, Boys!

NiNi 

Let's move on to the next pulp that we're going to discuss here. Knock Knock, Boys! by WeTV. 

Ben, what's Knock Knock, Boys! about?

Ben 

Knock Knock, Boys! is about four men who move into cheap housing because they're all running away from something in their lives. Together they form one of the more effective friend groups we've seen in a long time and pair off into two really satisfying relationships to follow for a solid eight episodes. 

We get in this show a really good presentation of age gap friendships amongst queer people. I really liked that we got to see developing relationships between young people alongside developing relationships between working people. We also got in this show a really great examination about how you love someone out of the closet. And for that, I will be forever grateful. 

I liked this show a lot, comparatively to the last one. This show also had a lot of our faves in it, and they showed up to work!

NiNi 

New faves and some classic ones, one of the classic faves being Seng Wichai who is well-loved on this podcast. Okay.

Twig 

Can we talk about Best? Because Best has been in the biz since 2017. He was in I Am Your King where he got to kiss Mark Siwat. I'm always so happy to see his face and I think this was by far his best role. It's really nice to see him in a role that can highlight his skills.

NiNi 

We talked a little bit about the overarching theme of it, but let's get into the details. The show has got, like we said, these four guys, they split off into two couples. Almond and Latte, who are in university, and Peak and Thanwa, who are just entering the working world. The way that these two pairs embody the angst of those two stages of life is really interesting.

Ben 

I think the difference between the last show and this show. During the last show we're mostly angsting about whether or not it's okay to like a show that's basically a glorified IG reel. This show has a plot and all of its characters have something going on with them. They have a clear want or desire. 

We've got Latte who is an amorous pansexual man who's having a great time in college. Too great of a time, in fact. One of his professors says if your ass is late anymore for my fuckin’ classes, you will not graduate. So he has to move closer to school because he's taking too long to get out of bed from one of his conquests to make it to class on time. Almond is finally out from under the maybe-too-sheltering thumb of his mother. And he is lying about his lodgings because he wants to live amongst the poors [laughs] instead of the security guard, ultra safe system that his mom wants him to live in. Thanwa is leaving a not great relationship with another man, and Peak appears to be running from compulsory heteronormativity. 

What's really interesting is when these guys are breaking the ice, they're telling each other truthful things, but they're also holding back in a way that felt really earnest. I find a lot of times in these shows, because they need to exposit things to the audience, these shows tend to have characters overshare with each other in a way that doesn't feel real. I thought this show did a great job of giving the audience the information we needed about why these guys were in the situation they were in, but giving the kind of polite answers that real people give each other about their situations. 

They needed a way to get these guys to start working together. So they create this conceit in which Almond really wants to hook up with this boy named Jumper, played by Pak Varayu. I totally understand why. He promises a year's worth of rent to whoever helps him score with Jumper. Hijinks ensue as the other three boys start trying to befriend Jumper and create scenarios for Almond to spend time with him so that they can get together. In the process of befriending Jumper, who we realize has a boyfriend already, Latte develops feelings for Almond and Thanwa and Peak end up growing closer together as well.

We follow Latte’s complex journey he has with people misunderstanding who he is as a pansexual person. Almond being an enthusiastic virgin who's very amped to explore his body and what he finds pleasurable. Thanwa is struggling with the thing we all struggle with in our 20s: Do we wanna do the job that's the thing we dream about doing or do we take the safe option, and what does that say about the other aspects of his life? And then Peak is deeply closeted because he doesn't want to let down his father. These are all really interesting threads to follow, and the show doesn't ever really forget where the characters are and what their experiences reflect in the way they respond to scenarios that arise. We get this great evolution of relationships over time.

One of the things that I thought the show did really well—I kind of want Twig to talk about this part a little bit more—is we get Almond's initial crush on Jumper, and then the show breaks that crush by systematically making Almond recognize that maybe Jumper is not who he wants to be with.

Twig 

I loved that sequence so much. Almond has a crush on Jumper and his new roommates are creating circumstances to bring them closer together in order to win rent for a year. That culminates in more and more situations where Almond and Jumper are in the room together and it's awkward. [laughs] Almond doesn't really know what to say, or Latte's with him and Latte and Jumper have more in common than Almond and Jumper do. It was very subtle moments, Almond's crush being whittled away at. 

And the party which they have at their house results in everybody getting really drunk, Jumper gets really drunk because the roommates are helping to make him drunk so that he'll be more receptive to Almond, and Almond is also being made drunk so that he'll be a little bit more relaxed. Jumper ends up getting so drunk that he gets really sick. We see this in so many shows where someone will get really drunk and then have a moment where they break and make out or have sex or confess or whatever, and what I love about the way they do that in Knock, Knock Boys! is that being really drunk is not sexy. It is not romantic. It is gross and it is unpleasant. And Almond dealing with disgruntled, loud, annoying, unwieldy Jumper and then a really gross Jumper when he vomits all over everywhere. And then he shits himself! Oh, it was so good. 

You could see the moment on Almond's face where the pedestal that Jumper had been on in his mind just collapsed and he realized, oh, this is a human being that I've been into and he's a gross human being, who vomits and shits and smells really bad right now and is actually [laughs] the opposite of attractive. So they help Jumper clean up and then Almond has to sit with his new realization and process his emotions.

Ben

NiNi, you're a big fan of Seng Wichai. I would like for you to unpack his character, Thanwa, and the work he did in this show.

NiNi 

Seng plays Thanwa and Thanwa is the mom friend. Thanwa is the one who takes care of everybody. He feeds the group, he guides them a little bit. And when he meets up with Peak, Peak basically is zoned out and also eats like an animal. Thanwa is a foodie, food lover, really into food and cooking and so he decides he's gonna teach Peak how to really enjoy and savour food. And that's how they bond. 

Thanwa himself is a complicated character. He's got this sadness to him, and Seng Wichai always plays these weird, cringey characters with an undercurrent of sadness to them very well. Thanwa is probably the least weird, cringey character he's ever played, but it's still got that undercurrent of sadness and melancholy. It makes you wonder, oh, what has this character been through? Why is this the way that he is? And over the course of the show, you get to see some of what he's running from, what is making him sad, and Seng plays every beat to me perfectly.

When things start to change with Peak, you see the sadness because Peak can't, in his mind, get all the way there in terms of how he feels about Thanwa. You can see that makes Thanwa really, really sad as much as he likes Peak and he enjoys his company and he is falling for Peak. It's a great little dynamic and Seng plays every nuance of this character so well. He understands Peak and what Peak can and can't give him. And when he decides that he's going to give Peak grace and support for whatever it is that he wants to do, because at this point it's not just about their relationship, it's about Peak's life, there's joy in there, but there's also sorrow. 

It's a great character for Seng and I am very glad to see him in this. Every character I've seen Seng play at this point has been great. The boy can pick ‘em. I will say that much.

Ben 

I think it's really notable that in the genre that's always using food as love, the not-so-subtle thing is Thanwa is literally teaching Peak how to experience pleasure, because it's clear that the boy does not when they first meet him.

48:39 – Knock Knock, Boys!: Sex Positivity

Ben

This was probably the most sex positive show we've watched this entire year. This show, through almost every single beat that it wanted to follow, had positive things to say about people's sexual relationships with each other, no matter how messy they got. 

Early on, we get this instance where Peak is fairly certain that he made out with one of the roommates the very first night he stumbled into the house. And at first he's not sure if it's Latte or Thanwa, because Latte's kind of a flirt. We get this eventual resolution where he realized it was Thanwa and apologizes for kissing Thanwa like that, and then asks if he can kiss him again properly. This is probably the point where I sat up and was like, hold on, this show might be actually serious about some of its ideas. Because that sequence when they were in the closet during the party was so pointed—particularly when Jane shows up the next morning and opens the door on them and they fall out. 

Twig

Yes!

Ben

Really excellent stuff.

There's another great bit that comes up. So, they have this friend, Lukpeach, who's a great character. I really love the new class of girl friend in BL who's doing supportive in a really fun way. It's the next evolution of the fag hag that we've gotten that I'm kind of into. I really like the way Lukpeach was constantly about supporting all of the gays around her so that she could write her stories about them. 

They have this sex ed club where they're talking about gender and sexual identity, safe sex practices, respecting people's privacy. So we get this whole bit where they're having a conversation about “don't record people without their consent, and especially don't create revenge porn about people by posting them without their consent.” And it feels like Almond's not really paying attention during that moment. And he has this moment where he realizes who Jumper actually wants to be with, that he's not actually available, and Almond's disappointed about this. This is right around the same time that someone records Jumper with Sean and then posts it. And there's this brief moment where the show leads the audience to suspect that Almond may have recorded Jumper and Sean in the shower and posted it online. They reflect this by having Latte turn on Almond and briefly think that Almond could have done that. 

This becomes a fault line between Almond and Latte, and then a huge line between Jumper and Almond, because this show plays the consequences of outing very seriously. Because of the video posted about Jumper, he is kicked off of the school's football team. He gets outed to his family and he was not trying to come out to them at all because he did not know how they were gonna react to that. Jumper confronts Almond about this, because he had ample reason to believe that Almond was there, and he's pissed at him. He's like, “I thought you were my friend. How could you do this to me?” 

It takes the Scooby Gang a really long time to suss out who was the actual culprit behind this. And there are social consequences for Almond for a while over this, where a significant portion of the student body is one, being super nasty to Jumper, but also simultaneously shaming Almond for doing that to his friend—or so they think. They end up revealing that it was Thanwa's ex who's been the one walking around recording people, and then they send his ass to jail. 

This was a really excellently handled plot. I like that the way the consequences played out across all of this happened in a believable way and was taken super seriously.

NiNi 

Because the plot line reverberates out, there are repercussions for Almond and Latte and there are repercussions for Peak and Thanwa. Almond at this point is kind of depressed, he's sad, so Latte tries to take him on a trip that leads to some new wrinkles and complications in their relationship. 

There was stuff going on with Peak and Thanwa, that when it became known to them that Thanwa's ex, who he had briefly moved back in with because of everything that was going on with Peak, that he had done it, something that happened in that moment of discovering that. This led to reverberations in Peak and his relationship. 

How the events reverberate and impact the group as a whole and then the individuals and the couples within it, I think it's actually constructed quite well for a show that clearly didn't have a lot of budget, didn't have a high production value or anything like that. They used their narrative time and they used their budget well, they built a story that worked for the time that they had, for the talent that they had, for the everything that they had.

Twig 

One of the things that I think might pass an international audience by, but really struck me as super important was the depiction of sex toys. Sex toys are illegal in Thailand, they're punishable by, I think it's, like, two years in prison if you're caught selling them, and owning them is also not legal. And so depicting sex toys on screen, it's actually quite a radical act for Thai television. To encourage the use of sex toys is also a pretty politically strong statement for Thai TV, so I just wanted to call that out as a really impactful thing that the show did, and I think did really well. It did a really great job of showing someone in Almond who had never seen a sex toy and was immediately fascinated and distracted. [laughs]

NiNi 

The way he stared at it. He could not believe this thing. He was just kind of mouth open looking at it like he couldn't even focus.

Twig 

Boy was thirsty.

Ben 

That boy skipped home. He's like, I got my first dildo and I can't wait to use it! [Ben and Twig laugh]

Twig 

And we got to see him experiment with his sexuality that way and to play with the sex toy a little bit and I thought that was an amazing thing to include in a show in any context, but particularly in a Thai television context.

One of the things that was a fun thing in any show but was a particularly political move in this show was Latte taking Lukpeach to the sex toy shop because they could have been arrested if they had been caught together going there. In context of where I am in Canada that wouldn't have really struck me as anything other than kind of a fun cute thing to do with a friend, and it speaks to a certain level of comfort and sex positivity but, it’s politically charged in a way in Thailand that you might not necessarily be aware of.

Ben 

I think it's important to point that out, because this show had an 18-plus rating and it's because they talked about sex the way they did. They actually didn't depict that much sexual content on screen.

55:51 – Knock Knock, Boys!: Our Fab Four (and Jane)

Ben

Speaking of, like, depicting the complex situations around sex, you mentioned the beach trip they go on. One of the better beach episodes we've had from the genre in a long time, because there's a lot of needing to unpack from some difficult things and big reveals about the characters that come out of that one. That's the first real moment where Latte and Almond physically acknowledge the attraction that's been building between them for multiple episodes at that point. 

They end up in a complex makeout that could have turned into sex, that then stops, that I think really sets the stage for the rest of what develops and makes Latte one of my favorite characters we've gotten this year. He was so patient with Almond and was always capable of meeting Almond emotionally where he was. Almond took a while to get comfortable with actually doing sexual stuff. And even though Latte made it clear he was ready and down and wanting, he was able to communicate that in a way that didn't feel like he was pushing Almond beyond his comfort zone. Which lets us later get these great I wanna have my first time conversations with both Peak and Thanwa where we get to let them give him useful advice. 

I really love the way these boys consistently rallied for each other when some shit was goin’ down. When one of them was having problems, they were really concerned about them and wanted to find a way to help them out. That was just really lovely. We know these boys have each other's backs, ‘cause they went through some real shit together.

Twig 

Latte was on it, being able lie to Almond's mother immediately.

NiNi 

It wasn't even a question. He's like, “Okay, we lyin’ to mom? I'll help.” Right up until they got caught. And then he was just like, well, you're gonna have to tell her what's going on. 

I wanna talk about the Peak arc coming towards the end and Peak and Jane and how all of that played out.

Ben 

Jane was a great character. We learned that the reason why Peak is so stressed all the time is his mom died and this sort of brings an end to this really loving, idyllic family that he had. His dad becomes cold in his grief and is constantly kind of hovering. Peak is struggling himself, he can't perform the way he used to about school and work and all of these things. He basically sort of closes himself off trying to be this ideal son for his dad. And so when his dad eventually tries to arrange a marriage for him with a family friend that's maybe financially beholden to them, he doesn't really say no to this because he doesn't wanna let his dad down. But he also can't hide from who he is, and so he just runs. 

Jane eventually finds him, and she tries to be patient with him. Like, she clearly knows his deal, tries to help him with Thanwa, but she won't say for him what he needs to say for himself, which I thought was really fascinating. Once he gets caught by his dad, he goes back with his dad and finally, after so many times that he should have said the damn thing, finally says to his dad what he needs to say about who he is. And we get this really great apology from his dad. 

What's so fascinating about Best’s performance in this is I think a lot of people conflated Best playing Peak as kind of spacey with his Love By Chance guest role. And I think that was maybe a little unfair because he was just doing a bit for that character as a very, very, very tiny role. But here, Peak spacing out is basically pain management. He can't stay present in the moment because he's suffering so much, which is, I think, one of the parts of the show that is understated, but in a way that I think is really good.

When I talk about being able to connect to the queer angst of a character, I can see how much Peak is suffering the whole time. That is most evidenced by the way he transforms as soon as everything is out in the open. The last episode and a half of Peak is like watching a completely different character because he's not burdened by the expectation anymore. You can see how quickly he becomes the boyfriend he's been wanting to be this whole time. 

And truly, Thanwa won because man, he put in real patience and effort with that man and he got what he wanted. Good for him!

Twig 

That whole arc is one of my favorite things in this show and I think the thing that is gonna linger with me most. One of the things that I really love about it is how carefully written it is. When Peak is earlier in the show being so frustrating—I mean the audience is frustrated, his housemates are frustrated, Thanwa is frustrated, Jane is so frustrated. The way that people relate to or respond to him differs depending on whether or not they know what's going on. And as soon as what's going on with him is revealed, that frustration shifts. Thanwa is still frustrated but so much more willing to give him space and time to figure himself out once he knows what he's figuring out, that it's not just about Peak holding back, it’s about his relationship with his father, he was so much more willing and able to wait. 

Almond and Latte similarly feel like they're sidestepping around Peak when they don't really understand what's going on with him, and then as soon as they do, they're ready to show up for him. They arrange to drive Thanwa to Peak at his dad's house so that they can be there to support him when he's ready to come out just to be there in case he needs them. I thought that was so beautiful. And then when Peak again does come out and shifts, the way that all of the characters respond to his changes. It’s also very organic and fluid and feels very natural. It was just so well done and felt really well thought out.

Ben

When we say the show is really sex positive, part of sex positivity is understanding that boundaries aren't bad. They're about establishing communication and understanding how your behaviors impact each other. 

Almond is running away from his mom kind of sheltering him too much. And when he finally expresses this to her clearly, she takes that in and apologizes for overstepping and maybe smothering him too much. So when they're like, “All right, now that we've gotten that resolved, we need to go save Peak.” And mom's like, “Can I come?” “No, mom, you can't come.” She goes, “Oh, okay.” And she doesn't push back. She's like, “Okay, well, I understand. I'll pay for your lodgings and your transportation." They play this for mild comedy, but this is actually really good. Mom does have a tendency to get over-involved, and they don't want her jumping into their guy problems here, but they don't want her to not be involved per se. They give her a way to feel like she's helping because she's got all this money. 

It's the same thing with Peak when he finally comes out properly to his father. His father apologizes for the conditions he created for Peak and tries to take steps to rectify that. That's actually a really special thing. Everyone loved Peak enough to wait for him to make the choice himself. We have so many stories about gay people being outed against their will and having to suffer the consequences of that. That happens in this show, too! I really love this show giving us the other end of that, where nobody outed Peak, even though we were all running to shake that man, they let him do it on his terms. And he had a good experience with it when he finally did it. And he says it's the fact that everybody loved him so much that he felt like it was wrong to keep running at that point. That's finally what made him come out on his own terms. That's the big point. You have to come out for yourself, for it to be meaningful and for you to have the courage and fortitude to be out and live out. 

This show was excellent and I loved all of these boys and their friends and especially Jane. My God, I love Jane. And she was gay! Good for us.

NiNi 

That actually annoyed me a little as why the show didn't get a 10 for me, because I thought they were entirely too cute about withholding the lavender part of that lavender marriage. 

Ben 

Oh, I sensed it the whole time. I was just waiting for them to confirm it.

NiNi 

It would be the one thing if they withheld it but they misdirected on it, and this was in the translations and the subtitles which is why it annoyed me. I know that the word that they're using in Thai is a gender neutral word but in terms of the subtitles, they are not using a gender neutral word. It felt like an unnecessary misdirect for me. That's probably, like, my only little quibble about it. And it's really a translation thing and not anything to do with the show as presented. So, eh, I'm fine. I just had to get it out.

We talked about Seng and Best and I want to give some love to Nokia and Jaonine because I don't think anybody could have done Almond and Latte as good as Nokia and Jaonine. I have some real appreciation for these two boys' talents.

Ben 

I wanna go to Twig because this is not our first time with Nokia. I did not watch all of Thank God It's Friday. Was Nokia this good at physical comedy in 2017 or ‘19?

Twig 

The short answer is no, he was not. I remember him in that show as standing out as one of the ones who can act. Thank God it's Friday, for context, was a show full of a lot of boys who had never acted in anything before and they weren't given a lot to do and it was a little bit rough to watch. [laughs] I remember him being one of the few who looked like he might have somewhere to go from there. So I was really glad to see him again, but he's definitely improved.

Ben 

I thought Nokia was so good at the physical comedy of playing Almond. Like, I really just loved watching that boy move around and react to literally everything that was happening. He felt so present in every scene he was in. Best and Seng are really good at that too. And it was nice to see a newer performer, for us at least, be able to match that energy. 

Jaonine was really charming as Latte. It was really fun to watch an actor play a guy who looked so comfortable in his own skin. All these guys are super tense about something going on. Peak’s fighting the closet he's in. Thanwa is struggling against normie expectations the whole time, and Almond just wants to get fucked so bad. It was so refreshing to see a character in Latte played by Jaonine that was very much not as stressed out as the rest of them.

Twig 

And he owned his sexuality in a way that was really refreshing, too. I love his refrain of, “I'm bisexual, but I'm still choosy. I don't do sleep with anyone, excuse you.” [laughs] And I think this is something that you actually have mentioned, Ben, in your thoughts on the show. I just love how he leaves all of his past relationships or interactions positively it seems like. So he keeps running into people who he's had sex with in the past and everyone's just happy to see him.[laughs] It was really refreshing to see people who have a very active sex life and have that be a positive thing in their life rather than a negative thing.

NiNi 

I just wanted to pick up on something that you said earlier about the fact that Latte is probably the only character who's not stressed and you enjoy watching that relaxation that Jaonine plays through the character. But when Latte does get stressed, I think Jaonine is also very good at making that feel uncomfortable. Like, Latte is not comfortable with the idea of being stressed out by things, that's not the life that he wants to live. And you can see the tension in his body and how it feels unnatural. I thought he was actually really really good at that aspect of this character.

Ben 

We got so lucky that we got such a talented cast here. Even in, like, the first episode or so, there was this weird flirty energy between Thanwa and Latte, and Twig and I were like, [laughs] are they gonna do it? Please let them fuck, we need to let this happen. 

Twig 

I'm still a little sad they didn't.

Ben 

Sincerely, the point at which I realized this show was gonna be something else was, Latte was living in the house alone first, and was throwing parties and shit and leaving a mess. He's not thinking about the fact that he has a new roommate that moved in and they left a fucking mess. And he felt bad about that, helped clean up a little bit and assured Thanwa that that would not happen anymore. And it doesn't! In so many other stories, his inability to stop partying would be a big part of his character. And it just isn't here. He is constantly capable of respecting other people's space and boundaries. He recognized that he had maybe overstepped with Thanwa, rectified that, and then corrected the behavior. It's a small thing really early in the show. But that was when I was like, this show might actually be on to something. There's a lot of people I like here and they seem to know what they're saying.

01:09:58 – Knock Knock, Boys!: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

I was really relieved to genuinely enjoy the whole ride of this show. It was so refreshing to have a show that was solid, for the most part, the whole way through where we could follow where the show wanted us to go. There were some missteps where I think some batons didn't pass as smoothly as they needed to, but I had such a great time following this. This was a really robust experience with really memorable characters and performances.

Twig 

At a time when shows so often write boundary violations as romantic, it's just so refreshing to have a show depict boundaries as healthy and respected and positive things.

Ben 

Before we go, we have to talk about Almond and Latte having the perfect first time.

Twig 

Yes!

NiNi

It was so good. [all laugh]

Twig 

Best sex scene of the year.

Ben 

I have spoken at least once or twice on this show about a Mexican film called Quatro Lunas—you've probably seen it, Twig—that has a first time sex scene between two teenagers that is just as awkward as this one. [Twig laughs] And this sits up there.

I really liked how real that felt. It's Almond's first time. The boy’s clearly thought way too much about sex. He cannot relax. They can't really get into anything. It doesn't matter how experienced or good at sex Latte might be, until Almond relaxes they're not gonna be able to do anything. And I like that it's after they give up on trying to make it happen that that's when things click. Whatever happens after we fade away from them, Latte clearly had a good enough time that he was like, “Let's try that again” the next day, which is also capped off by Thanwa and Peak clearly post-coitus coming down to check on them and asking plainly, “Did you have a good time? Give us the review of Captain Dick here.” [laughs] And he says, “We had a really good time.” 

I really liked that even as part of the expansion of healthy sexual boundaries, they're still giving Almond the space to talk about these sort of things in a way that's comfortable for him. Like, you can tell your friends that you had a really positive intimate experience with someone really important to you. And it gives you the space to be able to tell them maybe if you didn't. I feel so secure about how those boys are gonna be because they're not gonna be isolated and alone whenever they run into any sort of difficulties. They have people who they can talk to about real shit.

I love this show so much. Oh my God.

NiNi 

Well, that said, let's rate it. Twig, what’s your rating for Knock, Knock Boys?

Twig 

I gave it a solid 9. I think it had something very clear to say and it said it really, really well. It wasn't a perfect execution, but it was really fun and it overall was a solid effort and I'm definitely gonna return to it. I loved it.

NiNi 

Ben, how about you?

Ben

It's also a 9. There are a couple of emotional beats that I don't think land correctly or at the very least did not translate well for me. And I think certain plot lines got closed off in a way that was a little too pat. But I respect what the show is going for with those moments. This show is really excellent and you really should watch it, but it is not, like, a greatest of all time show.

NiNi 

I also give this show a 9. I enjoyed a lot about it and my quibbles are minor. And I really loved all the performances. Great job, team!

Ben 

This is like a 9+ from The Conversation. Sincerely, do yourself a favor and watch this one. We've complained a lot about Thai BL just really not putting together a complete show. We've got one here and you deserve to watch this. 

In fact, I think one of the big things about the show is that in the first episode we commented this felt more like a romcom and not a BL. And the show said that in the mouth of one of the characters writing about the world, that they wanted it to be more rom-com than the baseline expectations of BL. I really hope this is a sign for the future of what we are capable of making out of this genre, because this was so enjoyable. I was about to give up on watching Thai shows before I started watching this one. I've been strugglin’ out here. It's been hard in these streets.

01:14:54 – Importance of Pulps as Labs

NiNi 

Okay, so all that said, what do we think that these two shows leave us thinking about pulps and the role of pulps in sort of the BL ecosystem?

Ben 

Man, it's just so much easier to talk about a pulp when it has something to say that's interesting. And you can talk about how what the characters do and say reflects the themes that the show cares about. Like, we're talking about whether or not empty fluff is fine in We Are, but we're talking about the actual themes and characters and choices that were made in Knock, Knock Boys! That's such a huge difference, and this is what we mean when we say like there's this huge range in pulps. You don't have to only like the show one way for you to get a lot from it. 

And that's what I like to see out of these sort of scrappier productions. You really wanna see people with a good story to tell that has a strong thematic core and is able to express that through all of the viewpoints that it has in its story. Like the villain of Knock, Knock Boys! is well calibrated for the themes of Knock, Knock Boys! That's actually really good writing.

NiNi 

Twig, what about you, any thoughts?

Twig 

I think at the end of the day, whether something is a pulp or not is not a good indication of whether it has something interesting to say, whether it's a fun watch, whether it holds together, whether there's a good story. So take the word pulp for what it means and not for what it doesn't. It doesn't actually tell you anything about whether or not you like the show, I think, unless you have very specific taste. [laughs]

NiNi 

I don't watch a lot of the pulps, like a lot of the classic Thai BL pulps are shows that I've never seen. One of the things that I enjoy about these two shows is that they give me some experimentation in two different directions. They are the producers trying something out, pulps are like a lab in that way. The pulp format allows creators to experiment with ideas. Some work, some don't. It allows them to experiment with actors in some cases, and that can be good and that can be not so good, it allows them to just sort of see what's going to work without spending a ton of money. And for that, I can't ever truly knock them. There are not a lot of them that I enjoy personally, but I think that they have an important role to play in the ecosystem of the genre.

Twig 

That's one of the reasons why I always try and watch them all, or at least as many of them as I can. I am always really interested in what people can only say in a pulp that they couldn't say in a show that's made by a major production company. 

I've had some good conversations lately with Shan about City of Stars, a pulp that had some really interesting things to say about being famous and being gay and being in a ship and how those things can and can't exist at the same time in Thai popular culture. Just comparing that to how the same themes are handled in shows by major production companies, you guys talked about it in the Only Boo episode, about how there's only so much that a company that makes money off of selling ships can say about ship culture, whereas a smaller production company is more free to criticize fans. That's the kind of thing that I'm listening for when I watch pulps, is like, what are the things that they could say and do that they can only do because they're under less of a microscope?

NiNi 

The scrappy upstarts that could. So, that is going to wrap us up on “Guys Being Dudes,” which is what I'm gonna call this episode.

Ben 

Absolutely the fuck not! [Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

It's gonna be called Pulpmania. So that's gonna wrap us up on our Pulpmania episode and with that, we out. 

Say bye to the people, Twig.

Twig 

Bye! Thanks for having me again.

NiNi 

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben 

Peace!

[the-conversation-pod]

Fall and Winter 2024 Mailbag Grab Bag

AND WE'RE BACK!

Because we got bogged down in life stuff for the back half of the year, we built up more than a few questions in our inbox. Come listen to us talk about genre fatigue, our thoughts on the BL Bubble, and an hour-long discussion about sex scenes.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:02:10 - Inbox: Surprises of the Season 00:07:07 - Inbox: Does Categorization Matter? 00:11:42 - Inbox: BL Fatigue? 00:15:51 - Inbox: The BL Bubble 00:30:26 - Inbox: Sex On Screen 00:41:07 - Inbox: Fave Sex Scenes 00:51:24 - Inbox: Worst Sex Scenes 01:04:24 - Bonus Round: Best Sex in a Bad Show 01:06:54 - Inbox: Critical Philosophy 01:18:31 - Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 Introduction

Ben 

And we're back. It has been so long since we've been in the booth together. We are getting to our asks like a regular Tumblr blog—six months late. 

NiNi 

Sounds about right? Yep. 

Ben 

We appreciate all of you for being patient with us. It has been a very difficult half year for me and NiNi, but we did get your questions and we did answer them. So sit back and relax and I think we've got, like, an hour of answers for you guys. 

NiNi 

Almost two hours bestie. 

Ben 

Oh my God! It is what it is. Shan will be joining us for these, so you will get to enjoy her lovely voice and insights. We will see you in the questions. 

00:02:33 - Inbox: Surprises of the Season

NiNi

Let's start with the inbox. Shan, you wanna take us in?

Shan

All right. First question today comes from @wen-kexing-apologist, and they write: “Which show was the biggest surprise, positive or negative, for you this season and what made it surprising?”

Ben

Biggest surprise positive is definitely Tadaima, Okaeri. I was not expecting to love an omegaverse project this much. I was not really expecting to love a show that relied heavily on a toddler to be one of my favorite shows, either. I had such a blast with that. 

My biggest surprise negative… I think it's 23.5. I was not expecting that show to feel as disjointed as it was. I was not expecting Fon’s show to have the problems it was gonna have in it at all. I was not expecting perfect, but I was not expecting the confusion I felt from that show. 

Ben

All right, Shan, biggest surprises of the season for you?

Shan

I'll start positive. I will shout out Unknown. I did not expect a high quality Taiwanese BL to fall out of the sky and it was quite a delight for me. That show gave me some proper brain rot for a while. I immediately went out and read the novel and I was super into the weekly discussions. That was a super positive experience, even though the end of the show was a little bit disappointing. 

On the negative end, it was kind of a rough season [laugh], so there are so many I could talk about, but I wanna give a special spotlight to one of the most baffling shows I've ever seen in my life. It's called Love Is Like A Cat, and—

NiNi

[laughs] You watched that?!

Ben

Man.

Shan

[laughs] I did watch it, bestie! I did, I watched every single episode. 

NiNi

Oh noooo.

Ben

Oh my…

Shan

So, Love Is Like A Cat was this Korean and Thai BL collaboration. It wasn't the first time that happened, but it was promoted as if it was gonna be kind of a big deal. I always watch Korean BL and I'm very interested in these cross-country collaborations so I went in, not necessarily expecting a show of all time, but thinking that it would be an interesting project that would maybe make some [laughs] interesting connections across those cultural traditions. No, that is not what happened. 

I was baffled every single week of that show about what it thought it was doing and why. The basic premise is that this Thai actor is afraid of dogs and he has to, for career reasons, go on this reality show where he works at an animal shelter. 

The thing about this show that is amazing is that they completely neglected the actual romance between the humans. There was never any point where you believed that these two people liked each other. But the love story between this actor and the dog that he was afraid of was [laughs] actually kind of touching?

NiNi

Oh no.

Shan

But also extremely poorly executed. One of the weirdest experiences of my life, I don't understand how that project got made. I can tell that the people who made it were similarly very disappointed with how it turned out because nobody promoted it. They really tried to release it as quietly as possible, and none of the actors in it talked about it. 

One of the weirdest flops I have seen, just kind of a big what the fuck to me, like, how did that happen? How did this get made this way? Why was the story about the dog the best part of the show? It was a strange one.

Ben

I'm just gonna go watch the end of Homeward Bound instead.

[all laugh]

Shan

I do recommend, I think you'll be better off if you're looking for good dog content.

NiNi

Wasn't there a Vietnamese cat BL that like—

Ben

We're not gonna talk about it.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

That one was also real fuckin’ weird. Choco Milk Shake did something cool, and then a lot of other people thought they could get in on that, and no, they cannot. They need to stop.

Ben

Speaking of Korean BL and surprise disappointments, Boys Be Brave is also my near second disappointment, because that was from the director who did Our Dating Sim. So I went into that one super positively disposed towards it and did not have a great time.

NiNi

Well for me, hmm, in terms of things that surprised me positively, even though Love is Better the Second Time Around did not end well, I still was quite surprised by how well the first two-thirds of it held up. 

Negative surprise. Yeah. I gotta agree with Ben. It's definitely 23.5. I was anticipating this so much and I expected it to be good. And it just wasn't. And I don't want to say much more about it, ‘cause I think I said a lot about it on its own episode.

00:07:07 - Inbox: Does Categorization Matter?

NiNi

Okay, Shan, what's our next question? 

Shan

Next question from @avorbl. How much has the categorization of My Strawberry Film as romance by Gaga, MDL, etc. influenced your reception and rating?

Ben

[laughs] This is such a shady fucking question.

NiNI

I have not watched this one so y'all have to tell me, why is it shady?

Ben

My Strawberry Film is the final outing from Drama Shower. In both seasons of Drama Shower I believe they attempted to do something original. The MBS team decided to do kind of like an indie coming of age type of film, but over the course of eight weeks, 23 minutes at a time… and it was boring as hell. What avor, I believe, is hinting at here is that they released it as a romance. The BL viewing audience is going to be invested in this boy’s closeted crush on his closest male friend and maybe navigating the drama of his friend having a crush on a mysterious girl who shows up. And then there's a second girl who has a crush on our gay boy and they have to sort all of this out. 

There could have been some interesting stuff here, particularly because mystery girl might be queer? But, it's boring and it's moody in ways that film types like me can enjoy at a film festival, but not over the course of eight weeks. I don't mind a moody film that just hangs out in teenage malaise for a good 90 minutes. That can be an interesting emotional experience, but My Strawberry Film, being billed as a romance was extremely frustrating because none of the romances are really compelling and none of them succeed in a way that was interesting. It just was not what we thought we were signing up for, and because we were constantly out of alignment with it, it was a deeply unsatisfying experience. 

I know Shan suffered through this with me. Shan, any commentary you wanna offer here?

Shan

I watch a lot of drama across all different genres. I can get down with a lot of different types of stories. So for me, the main problem with this show is not that it was miscategorized. The main problem with it is that it fucking sucked. 

The entire thing is designed to leave you unsatisfied in a way that I don't actually think supported its themes or ultimately delivered a message that was aligned with it being hosted on a queer platform. There was a backstory with one of the characters’ mothers who had had these feelings for her female best friend that she thought were unrequited. She met a tragic end. She died. Later in the show we find out that her best friend regrets and did return her feelings. 

So, in this show about everybody liking somebody who doesn't like them back and a bunch of one-sided loves that all end in failure, the only requited love story was with the dead person who was not alive to know that her love was requited. I don't know what the show was trying to say with that. But what they communicated with the way that the story played out was that being queer is lonely and miserable and destined to end in despair. And I found that just such an [laughs] offensive message in a show—

Ben

It sucked!

Shan

—that was part of Drama Shower. I was like, what the fuck is this? On top of all of that, it also was just so fucking boring. It was such a slog, but because it was part of Drama Shower, some of us hung in there trying to see what it was trying to do, trying to understand how it belonged in this line up of projects. I do not know what the person who created this was trying to say, or if they thought they were saying something different than what ultimately was communicated by their story, but I hated it. Blech.

Ben

And that's all we're gonna say about that. It was an ignoble end for a very cool project.

00:11:42 - Inbox: BL Fatigue?

Shan

Let me change moods. This is from @mynameisnotthepoint and they write “Hi. First of all, I really enjoyed the spring season of the podcast. My question is: because BL is so big now and many of us are experiencing fatigue with some of the stories being told, is there a type of premise or trope or genre in BL that you find yourself gravitating towards, and if so, why?”

Ben

I'm gonna unpack the question a little bit. I am not experiencing fatigue necessarily, with familiarity with BL, I'm experiencing fatigue with BL consistently ending on a shit note. [laughs] I just desperately need them to just take any premise that they're trying to tackle seriously and complete it within the expectations of the character motivations that they're committed to or, but hopefully and, the narrative that they're trying to set up. I just desperately need the shows to be good more often than they are. It is so frustrating that so many of these shows just veer off of whatever course that they try to set us on. Some of them for commercial reasons, some of them for “look how clever I am reasons.” I don't really know, I just really need these shows to stop shitting the bed and I would be less tired. 

As for what I find myself gravitating towards, I am far more interested in queer life drama that also features romance than I am in queer romance in and of itself. 

Shan, you watch too many dramas!

Shan

Mmm.

Ben

[laughs] What type of premise, trope, or genre are you drawn to in BL currently?

Shan

Similar to you, Ben, it's not really about the genre or the premise for me. I can watch a good story about just about anything. So for me, it's really not about what the concept is, it's about how it's executed. My great frustration right now with a lot of the BL I'm watching is I feel like the story is the lowest priority. So many of these shows are more about promoting something, whether that be an actor or a couple or a brand, more than they're about telling good stories. And that's where my frustration lies. 

I will take anything you wanna throw at me. Give me all of your ideas. Give me all of your concepts. I will watch the same basic formulaic romcom eight billion times if you execute it well. I will also watch your super out there weird idea if you execute it well. For me it's just about the execution, so, I just really wanna see BL that cares about story. I wanna see BLs that understand that you need good writing to have a good story. That's where my hopes are right now for the genre.

Ben

NiNi, where are you sitting on this?

NiNi

I think I'm sittin’ in the corner with Shan. I am not somebody who gets fatigued by watching the same thing over and over if it's done really well. So, it's not a question of premises or tropes or genres fatiguing me. It's a question of things needing to be executed. On some level, I do enjoy rewriting [laughs] some of these shots in my head after the fact, especially if the premise was strong to begin with, but I am also kind of annoyed that I have to do it in my head and I don't get to see it on the screen. 

So, what I find myself gravitating towards? Something that's well done and written all the way to the end. That would be nice. I just wanna tell everybody: stop trying to be surprising or water cooler worthy and just write a solid show. 

00:15:51 - Inbox: The BL Bubble

Shan 

Okay, next question! @troubled-mind writes: “I very much enjoy shows that exist in a so-called bubble, let's say Our Dating Sim, and those that firmly don't, like the brilliant Marahuyo Project. Still, I feel like there are cases of shows that want to have a cake and eat a cake in that regard. Keep things on the lighter side as if in a bubble, but also try tackling queer issues like homophobia and prejudice at the same time. This just doesn't sit right with me sometimes. So my question is: what do you think is the most challenging aspect for creators when they attempt to get outside the bubble? And what potential misdeeds would you still forgive and which are too much to overlook?” 

NiNi 

Ben, you wanna go first or last? 

Ben 

Probably last ‘cause I feel like I'm gonna go on a rant. [all laugh] We talked about this a lot on the show and I'm probably gonna rehash a lot. Before I dominate the conversation on this, I think I wanna get some of your reactions first, NiNi. 

NiNi 

Hmm, let's see, what is the most challenging aspect for creators when they attempt to get outside of the bubble? I think tone is a big part of it. I think that's probably the thing that suffers most with, especially creators who are accustomed to working inside of the bubble, trying to either straddle it or work outside of it. They don't get the tone of what they're doing quite right. And it's not to say that it can't be, you know, light hearted or comedic or all of that. But it does, if you're going outside of the bubble, need to feel queer. And it doesn't always do that. 

What potential misdeeds would I forgive? Ooh [laughs]. 

Ben 

Be honest. Go ahead. You just thought of an answer right there. [Ben and Shan laugh] Just say it. Say it with your chest. 

NiNi 

No, I wouldn't actually forgive that. [laughs] I was thinking of something but then I was like, “No, really would you forgive that?” I'm like, no, no I wouldn’t and no, I haven't in the past. 

What I won't forgive is getting the sex wrong. Like getting how queer people interact in a sexual way. Getting that wrong, I'm just like “Oh, what are you doing, you don't know what you're talking about, or you're trying to appeal to an audience this is not really for. Stop this, I don't like this.” When we're talking about BL in particular. There's a lot of penetrative sex talk and penetrative sex action that goes on and I'm just like, this is not where boys start. And whenever they start that way in a BL, especially one that's trying to be outside of the bubble. I'm like, no, this does not feel right. I don't like this. This is not correct. This is not how it would go. And it can just kind of lose any sense of authenticity that story may have had. I can't suspend my disbelief any longer, I just. I lose it. 

What about you, Shan? What do you think about the challenging aspects and potential misdeeds? 

Shan 

I really agree with the point that you just made. In a narrative that is trying to be authentically queer, to be a little bit more rooted in a real world sensibility, not understanding how queer people actually engage with sex is a big immersion breaker, I guess? It kinda just pulls you out. 

I think it's helpful to give a couple illustrative examples of, like, where we've seen this before. Bad Buddy is the quintessential bubble/not bubble show that actually did it very well. Bad Buddy exists in a world without homophobia, but they layered a very clear allegory for homophobia onto the story. And so you still had Pat and Pran having to deal with a lot of the very same issues that they would have had in a homophobic world because of this rift between their families and the unacceptability of their relationship. That's a very elegant way to tell a story where you don't have to get directly into homophobia, but you are still having the characters kind of experience the beats of homophobia in how it would affect their relationship. 

And then you have a show like Only Boo that tried to also straddle this line and did it very poorly. They struggled with, I think to your earlier point, NiNi, tone a lot in wanting to have this kind of like, shiny, happy, fluffy show, but also have real stakes. And then wanting to just ignore those stakes and not deal with them whenever they got in the way. So there was a lot of conflicting information in the show about what mattered and what didn't. And it got in the way of the story ultimately, and derailed the main narrative. 

When I think about what is challenging when you're trying to get outside the bubble, in Thai BL in particular, there is, I think, a dedication to keeping these stories relatively light and romance focused and wanting to always deliver happy endings. And that can often be very much in tension with trying to engage with the reality of homophobia. There is still a lot of cultural homophobia, and the shows that they make in the BL space have very intentionally skirted that for the most part, and so, trying to venture into that space, into getting a little bit more real, but then also maintaining that tone of the shiny happy place and making sure that everyone gets a happy ending can often be in tension. That's where shows like Only Boo kind of go off the rails and really struggle. If you're going to deal with homophobia, you have to actually deal with it, and it might mean that the authentic ending of your story is not a typical romance ending. And I think that's a really hard thing for most creators to do in a way that feels satisfying. 

I think in terms of what I can forgive or not, I do want to give credit to the shows that try to get outside this bubble more, because they're trying to do something a little bit more difficult. I wanna give credit to these shows for attempting things that have a higher degree of difficulty, attempting to build an authentic romance narrative in a less than ideal world. But, there are certain things that you do have to make sure you get right. And for me it comes back to that narrative integrity piece. It's not that there are specific acts or specific endings that I can never accept under any circumstances. It's more that whatever happens in the story and whatever the resolutions are, they do need to feel like an authentic possibility that springs from the conflicts that the story introduced. And what breaks a show for me is when they introduce conflicts rooted in homophobia, that they then don't take seriously and just brush aside when they get too difficult to deal with. That is what breaks the fictional world immersion for me and makes the show feel like a failure. 

Ben, please start your rant. 

Ben 

The issue when you go outside the bubble is people with money are trying to make money off of BL, which means they're just trying to make money off of romance tropes that they can produce as cheaply as possible to maximize the fan engagement and then monetize the actors into advertising deals and fan events afterwards. That's how the market for this functions. 

The harsh way to say this is the audience is here for gay romance, they’re not here for gay drama. They don't actually care about the lives of queer people. They're just here to enjoy some romance and then go about their lives. This is not meant as a sort of chiding for the people who are in the genre for romance exclusively, but it is one of the major contributing factors for me for why we have this tension between those of us who are here for queer drama and often will bounce from romances that are just kind of schlocky, as a result. 

@troubled-mind brought up Our Dating Sim. Our Dating Sim is what we might call a technically in the bubble show because they don't say the words gay in that show, but it doesn't feel like a bubble show to me because there's no rationale for any of the movements of that story that makes sense if either boy was straight and existed in a world without homophobia. That story only works if you read them as queer. 

Dealing with this tension of, how do we get funding to tell stories? And then how do we balance the goals of the people with money, the audience that they think they're trying to reach, and maybe trying to tell the stories about queerness that matter to us? It's expensive to pay people and hire people to be on these sets, and it's hard to get the distribution deals you need because of some of the rules and such. It's a niche genre. What's, like, a very specific appeal. It does not get a lot of engagement and if the margins are that thin, we're not gonna see bravery that often in this, because how does that translate into dollars for them? Do people who want to sell juice and toothpaste and cars and motorcycles and stickers and chips want to put their products alongside biting social commentary? I don't know. Like, we're in a global backslide into fascism right now, and we can feel money drying up and organizations shutting down and former allies being quiet when we need them. It’s a rough time out here. It's hard when you're trying to juggle the goals of commercializing romance, the goals of commercializing pretty actors, and the goals of telling meaningful queer stories. It's very hard to really serve all of those goals really well. You can usually serve two of them, but not all three. It sucks! 

What misdeeds would I forgive? Bad acting. The first thing I'm willing to forgive in a show that is really compelling is bad acting. Make It Right is the quintessential [laughs] example of that. 

Shan 

[laughs] No, don’t pick on my boys! [NiNi laughs]

Ben 

Look.

Shan

They were so little! Leave them alone!

Ben

They were, they were. 

What is too much for me to overlook? Like a specific blend of sexual violence, I think. It doesn't come up as often these days. But I was here in some of the early days where there was a lot of “I can't hold back anymore” stuff that's not very pleasant to engage with. That's one that I just do not enjoy. 

Shan 

I feel like you also tend to get particularly angry with shows when it feels like they steered away from the more queer direction that they could have headed in. 

Ben 

That's a good point. Let me define that properly 'cause I did get a little bit lost in my rant. There's a couple of key things, I think, that are at the heart of queer storytelling for me. One is being othered and recognizing that in yourself often times before other people, or immediately after someone else clocks it. Like, a big part of being queer is being queer, literally weird! You are not in step with the developmental progression that a lot of other people around you are on. There is something different about you. And it makes you feel separate from others as a result. If I don't feel that from at least one of the characters, I don't always feel like I connect to them. Another thing is if they're not out, why are they not out? Because part of why you stay in the closet is because you are terrified of the massive social and economic changes you're about to face as a result of being out. 

Those are probably the two key things. It has to be the sense of being othered and the real concern about not fitting in and possibly being discarded. 

Shan 

That was a great question. 

Ben 

Thank you for humoring my rant, NiNi and Shan. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

I don't know how much of that you all will get to hear, but it was all amazing. 

NiNi 

One thing that Ben said that actually made me think what I could forgive. He said bad acting. Sometimes?

[Ben and NiNi laugh] 

Shan 

You can’t forgive bad acting, NiNi, I don’t think you ever—

[all laugh]

Ben 

Hold on. Where's the tape? Hold on. Is this you?

[Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

Sometimes I will forgive bad acting. 

Shan 

Under certain conditions. 

NiNi 

Yeah, under certain conditions. Well, one thing I will definitely forgive is a certain level of production quality, I will find a way to enjoy low production quality if the story is good enough. 

Shan 

I agree. We try to meet a show where it's at. We really appreciate that some of these folks are out here tryin’ to make good queer stories on a shoestring budget, and we don't hold that against them. 

Ben 

We hold everything else against them. Looking real hard at you, Oxin Films. 

[all laugh]

Shan 

Oh my god, I don't wanna talk about Oxin Films. 

NiNi 

Yes, but also, My Dear Gangster Oppa. That’s all I'm gonna say. 

Shan 

Don't even try it!

Ben 

Oh lord. Here we go again. 

[all laugh]

NiNi 

I'm sorry, I will be haunted by that orange scar makeup. Haunted. 

Shan 

Ben has quoted “quit the gangster life” at me twice in the last 24 hours. 

Ben 

It’s true.

NiNi 

I mean, he's not wrong. 

00:30:26 - Inbox: Sex On Screen

Shan 

Let's go to the next question, which is quite a humdinger. So, this is long, strap in, folks. I'm going to read it all and then we'll come back and answer it piece by piece. @parralex0889 writes: “I'm reeling from being whelmed by the end of 4 Minutes, so I was thinking about the positives and I really enjoyed how sex was depicted and talked about in the series. Great gets picked up unexpectedly by Tyme, and when they get home, Great very pointedly pauses and says he needs to shower first and they potentially do a redo of that in the finale, as well. Tonkla, a character who openly asks for raw sex twice and eventually gets it. Great having his own condoms and no shame about it. I really enjoyed that these characters are allowed to have ownership and pride and desire and life and characterization through their sex and attraction. Even earlier in the year in Wandee—Wandee Goodday—there's a little moment when Cher exits the bathroom before going to bed with Yei, and to me, I could easily project a certain, ‘the water's running clean and I'm ready for action’ in Cher's movements. So to make this into a question or three, do y’all have any stand out ‘this is how real people engage in sex in reality,’ instead of the perfect TV sex that BL and BL-adjacent shows often lean into? Second, favorite BL sex scenes in general? Third, which sex scenes have been y’alls worst, either in execution or bad chemistry?”

So, that's the full question. Let me take this piece by piece that we can tackle all of. First of all, we haven't talked about 4 Minutes and Wandee Goodday specifically on the pod. So maybe we should just start there. Alex is suggesting that both of those shows were pretty good with their depictions of sex, and so maybe we should just talk a little bit about that first in our impressions. 

NiNi 

I mean, can I start with a liked it, hated it? [laughs]

Ben 

Good. Go for it, girl!

[all laugh]

NiNi 

I liked 4 Minutes more, I think, than you two did. The ending wasn't everything that I wanted, but I was still pretty satisfied with it. Wandee Goodday fell off the rails about, what? Halfway through and never got back on the rails, and I'm still pissed off when I think about it because it could have been so good. What was the reason?! 

I had to get that off my spirit before I actually engaged with the question. 

Ben 

Hydrate, baby. 

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

But in terms of how the sex is depicted in these two, I liked how Wandee Goodday tackled sex in the beginning. How they tackled a friends with benefits relationship and how they tackled them having a sexual relationship and speaking openly about sex and the way that they enjoyed sex and the things that they wanted to do. I liked that they showed them having different kinds of sex. I liked that they joked about sex and they had a good time with it. When things started getting confusing for them emotionally, it still didn't stop them from having sex, which I liked because so often these shows treat sex and romance or sex and love as these separate entities that somehow sex is sex and love is love and somehow love and sex can't be intertwined in that way. And so that was the thing that I did enjoy about Wandee, the fact that they intertwined sex and fun, energetic, engaging sex and love, not just soft focus, tender touching, missionary. [laughs] And then it went off the rails, but not gonna dwell on that too much at this point. 

4 Minutes is a different show. It's not so much about the relationship between these characters, and that's one of the reasons I think that I enjoyed it because I didn't see 4 Minutes as a romance or anything involving a romance. These two characters bumped into each other. They had sex, they got way too entangled because of a host of other reasons. Tonkla and Korn had a very interesting dynamic that involved, like, a lot of power dynamics that I feel like the show didn't entirely engage with and I would have liked to see more of. And then Tonka and Win and the way that they had sex also showed a lot of interesting power dynamics that were flipped from Tonkla and Korn’s, and I liked watching that, I liked seeing the show tackle sex sort of outside of the lens of love. So I did enjoy that about it. But to me, 4 Minutes was not about romance so the conversations about sex were in a completely different direction. 

I am the sex and story girl. I'm the person who wants to see, like, what is the sex telling us about these characters and their relationship and their power dynamics and their, all these different things. And I got, like, a smorgasbord of that, I think in 4 Minutes. So I quite enjoyed how these two shows actually tackle sex. 

Shan 

I agree with that. I have many issues with 4 Minutes but none of them were about the use of sex [laughs] in the show. I thought that the show was very smart in how it used sex to inform character. I really appreciate when a show that is about hot young adult men who have sexual desire lets them actually have sex and doesn't put weird purity principles around the context in which they can do that. And so I just appreciated how real that felt. To Alex's point in the question, that they actually did address in some of those sex scenes actual important stuff like sexual health and the way things actually work and having to clean up and all of that stuff that is normally skipped over in romance. I thought they were pretty good about that and that was one of the aspects of the show that I liked a lot, despite thinking that the whole thing didn't hold together all that well. 

Wandee Goodday I think a little bit less credit there, though I do appreciate that they acknowledged casual sex as a thing. I thought they also got a little weird about it in places where suddenly the two main characters stopped having sex for reasons that never made any sense to me whatsoever, but they eventually skipped over that, there was just a lot of weirdness in that show in general. But I do agree with NiNi's point about the way that they depicted sex as fun, and I think that's something we don't see enough. We don't see enough either of sex between committed couples and I thought that was a really great part of what Wandee Goodday did with Oyei and Cher, showed them as a long term happy couple that had a really active sex life and really enjoyed that aspect of their relationship together. We don't get to see much of that. I really appreciated that aspect of that show, despite really [laughs] sharing NiNi’s ire about the way that the story went. 

NiNi 

Bestie, I'm so mad. 

Shan 

Hee hee we’re gonna be mad forever about that. You have to understand, folks, that NiNi and I were so invested [laughs] in this show being good. 

NiNi 

So invested. 

Shan 

We were so excited for it and then when it went bad, it was just so disappointing. Ugh.

Ben, how about you? 

Ben 

It's difficult. I think I care oftentimes less about the physical mechanics of the sex when there's something interesting happening with the characters in the moment. I feel like I only really get caught up in the mechanics of some of the sexual stuff when they're fuckin’ up the story around it. I do like when the shows represent the kind of sex that guys are probably having with each other. Like I don't mind how much penetrative sex that they want to do if it's like Alex says, where, you see guys dealing with some of the physical preparatory realities of that. 

Shan 

Why don't we get into some of the other questions, ‘cause we're starting to get more into specifics. The next specific question that Alex asked is, “do we have any stand out ‘this is how real people engage in sex in reality,’ instead of the perfect TV sex that BL and BL-adjacent shows often lean into?”

Shout out to Alex for giving us this chance to talk about Knock Knock Boys!

Ben 

Heeeey! 

[all laugh]

Shan 

‘Cause it is definitely the standout Asian BL of this year for what does sex look like in reality. There was an—what I consider iconic and was iconic to the tiny community of us who watched—this sex scene between the characters Almond and Latte, who were having sex for the first time, and it was just a great and funny and compassionate comedy of errors, of them trying to work through the awkwardness and find the right positions and get comfortable with each other. It was a very charming and funny scene. I haven't seen anything like that previously in BL. Usually they're very preoccupied with trying to make things look sexy. This was not sexy, but it was very loving and I thought that was such a great sex scene. 

Ben 

That sequence really does a great job of showing people, like, communing in the act and trying to take care of each other and deal with their nerves and all the other stuff that they bring to the table. I also liked the lead up to that where Almond talked to his friends about how he was feeling. It was nice that Thanwa and Peak also finally let go of a lot of stuff that was hanging over them and they were far more relaxed around each other for the rest of the show, clearly having a good time.

Shan 

And I like the contrast, their characters are older. They're both sexually experienced, so, like, sex for them was a more relaxed affair all around. They weren't confused about what to do. Almond and Latte are younger. It was Almond’s very first time and it was Latte's first time with someone he was in love with, so they were more nervous. 

NiNi 

You know me, I'm always gonna go to the Philippines. The ones that really stand out to me, the Gameboys movie. I think that one felt very real. 

Shan

Perf.

NiNi

The season 2 cut is a better version of the movie. And then there's a lot of these Filipino quarantine dramas that I think did really well. Quaranthings, Meet Me Outside got me into the headspace of yes, this is how something like this would go. 

Ben 

To finish off on Alex's question, none of these shows are ever going to have somebody talking about prep in a meaningful way that isn't like a quick line, like, nobody's going to make a booty water joke in these shows. 

Shan 

[laughs] So yeah, we can only get so close to reality in Asian BL, let’s not get unrealistic with our expectations. 

Ben 

They ain’t making that joke. 

Shan 

No. [laughs]

00:41:07 - Inbox: Fave Sex Scenes

Shan 

All right. So let's transition to the next part of Alex's question, which is what are our favorite BL sex scenes in general? 

NiNi 

It's always gonna be, for me, Kinnporsche Episode 7 in the bathroom. The mutual masturbation scene. That's one of my favorites of all time. 

Shan

Mmm. That’s a good one.

Ben 

That's a good highlight. I have a lot of issues with Be On Cloud, that is not one of them. 

Shan

Yeah, Be On Cloud is good at sex.

NiNi 

I really liked the way that the scene is constructed and what it says about the characters and where they're at in the moment and how it evolves as it goes along emotionally, and then the fact that it is a mutual masturbation scene and not penetrative sex or an oral sex scene. Which is the most give and take that you can do simultaneously as two gay men. I think it was really good and it's one of my favorites. 

Shan 

There's some pretty decent examples of really good sex in the genre. I think in terms of other Thai BL, I would shout out the shows from MeMindY, which are made by a person whose name I will pronounce… May [MAME]. And— 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

Y'all, we got told we've been pronouncing it wrong, but we cannot make the mommy pun. I'm sorry. We just can't do it. 

Shan 

I'm not calling her mommy, I’m not doing it. So you're just gonna have to live with it. 

So, what I love about her shows is, I think that they use sex very well both as part of the narrative and as part of characterization and as legitimately part of the romance arc. Her shows believe that couples who are in love also have hot sex, which might not sound that revolutionary, but is in this genre, believe me, because most shows only allow hot sex scenes between characters who are in a toxic relationship or characters who are about to break up. That is not true in her shows. You see hot, loving sex before and after relationships start. You see casual hot sex, you see committed, loving hot sex in her shows and she really stands apart on that, her shows do, in the genre, so it's something I definitely want to shout out. TharnType, Love in the Air, I thought Wedding Plan’s sex scenes were fantastic. They really allow you to see sex as just a normal part of the romance arc and not something that is separated out and othered in any kind of way. 

Ben 

We cannot overstate when it comes to the work she does, that in most cases her characters have the best sex after they get together. We don't see a sudden drop off after they get together. 

Shan 

Love Sea, which we just finished recently, was a great example of that. The sex got better as they got closer and as they fell more in love. And that's pretty common for the trajectories of her romances. 

Another example that I'll bring up, and I did clear this already with Ben. You know it's coming, Ben, so brace yourself. 

Ben 

Let me just mute now. [Shan laughs]

NiNi 

Oh God. 

Shan 

I think we can't talk about good sex in BL without talking about History 3: Make Our Days Count. Taiwan is known for very good intimacy scenes, and it is the pinnacle of what they can do when all cylinders are firing in terms of having sex scenes that are part of character, that are part of the narrative arc, that are part of the relationship development, and that are very well performed between actors with extremely good chemistry. Just all around fantastic and Make Our Days Count has the best sex scenes in Taiwanese BL. It's just true. There's controversy around that show, understandably. It's one of my favorites. I know a lot of people don't like it for very fair reasons, but the sex scenes in that show and its depiction of intimacy between people who are falling in love is just top notch. 

NiNi 

Man, Sunbo and Zhigang in the gym bathroom. 

Shan 

Hoo! 

NiNi

Quality.

Shan

Bestie, I think about it all the time, still. It just comes into my mind and I'm like, ooh, yes, that happened! 

NiNi 

I mean, it's so much to it as well. The fact that it happens in the gym bathroom after hours, this, like, this feels like something that could really happen. 

Shan 

And we talk about Taiwanese BL and its style with sex scenes. It feels very raw, I think in a way that a lot of the more stylized shows don't. It hits harder because it feels like something that could really be happening, and it feels like it's the way that it would be happening. 

Ben 

There's great examples of that kind of intimacy in History 3: Trapped. There's the bandage kissing scene, which is one of the most intimate scenes we've had in a while. They don't actually have sex in that moment, but man is that one of the most charged scenes in that whole series. And then there's the birthday cake scene after Meng Shaofei’s been gone all day. 

There's the We Best Love 2 scene that everybody has feelings about that I think is great! 

Shan 

I have so many feelings about it and they're all positive. I love that scene. 

NiNi 

I like that it transgresses the line because it's a discussable transgression of the line—

Ben 

Exactly. 

—and people who just dismiss it because of that, I think that you're missing out, honestly. 

Ben 

We’ll try not to spoil it because we know a lot you all haven't seen it. 

Shan 

And you should. 

Ben 

It's good. 

Shan 

You gotta watch We Best Love, both parts. 

Ben 

What are Sam and Yu doing right now, hold on. 

[all laugh]

NiNi 

And then, I'm always gonna have to bring this up. A non sex scene that feels like a sex scene is Teh and Oh-aew on the bedroom floor in I Told Sunset About You Episode 3. 

Shan 

Hoo! Scratching the back! Oooh, I've been transported. I'm gonna need a minute. 

NiNi 

I can't even bring it up without it entering my brain. It is so ingrained in there. 

Ben 

You want to know how good that scene is? I have basically memorized all of the trivia around that scene. 

Shan 

You know everything about how it was made. 

Ben 

Like they had to film it twice. They filmed the show and then during the edit process didn't like the version that they got and brought the boys back. And that was really stressful for them. They had to redo their homework again. There was a ton of pressure on them. 

Shan 

It came out amazing, so thank you for your service, everybody on those creative teams. 

We obviously gotta talk about Japan here, too, because they are often pushing the envelope in BL on what kind of sex can be depicted on screen. Obviously, the Pornographer series is a prime example of using sex to inform character, to move narrative to tell us something about the relationship and where it is at every stage where we're seeing them engage in physical intimacy. The best sex scenes I have ever seen in a romance, still, in that series. 

Ben 

All the sex is complicated in that one too. Except for one that wasn't where I was so relieved. [laughs]

Shan 

Yeah. The one you were waiting for. [laughs]

Ben 

Literally, I watched The Novelist and we did the prequel in Mood Indigo. And I'm like, that's enough. [laughs] I’ve had enough!

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

That’s enough of this dark sex! 

Ben 

I had enough of this! I need Haruhiko to suck Rio’s dick right now. And within 15 minutes of the movie, that's exactly what happened. In a car! [laughs]

Shan 

It was in the special, the 15 minute special. He finished Mood Indigo and he said “he needs to suck his dick right now.” I was like, bestie, hit play. [all laugh] It’s the first thing that happened! 

NiNi 

Oh my God. 

Ben 

I was like, Miki Koichiro understands me. 

Shan 

That series really understands how sex relates to the relationship arc and where the characters are emotionally, and it always got every single beat exactly right. There's a lot of crazy good sex scenes in that series. There’s a lot of wild sex. The one where the chemistry is the most off the charts is maybe one of the ones in Mood Indigo, but my favorite scene in that whole series, my favorite sex scene, is the one at the end of Playback, the movie. 

Ben

Mmhmm.

Shan

It is the culmination of those character arcs, and it is so perfectly executed and they chose to not have it be a penetrative sex act. They chose to have it be a moment of very deep emotional intimacy, where hand jobs were exchanged. Ugh, it was just fucking perfect and I can't believe [voice gets intense] how many of you haven't watched it or haven't finished it because you couldn't find Playback! Please, come tell me if you need help. I will give it to you. You've gotta watch it. 

NiNi 

When Japan is on game, they're on game. 

Shan

Right?

NiNi

I think about things like the Utsukushii Kare movie. I think about things like The End of the World With You. 

Ben 

That has some great scenes. From the same team that did The Novelist and Mood Indigo and Pornographer. 

NiNi 

For, like, a couple that we saw even this year, like, Love is Better the Second Time Around and Perfect Propose, I think also tackled sex really well. I think about The Cornered Mouse Dreams of Cheese all the time, and that is a dark tale. 

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan 

A dark tale that uses sex very well. 

Ben

It does. 

NiNi 

I agree, I agree. 

Ben 

There’s a great one in Jack O’ Frost. The problem with a lot of the Japanese ones is, like, if you're seeing a great Japanese sex scene, the guys are probably about to break up. [Shan laughs] Unfortunately. 

Shan 

Except Pornographer! 

Ben 

Except Pornographer. 

Shan 

Watch. I'm not kidding! 

NiNi 

And not in The End of the World With You either, because the best one is the one in the car, and that's right before they get back together. 

Shan 

We owe him so much. 

[NiNi laughs]

Ben 

Let's put Grand Guignol in the conversation. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

Oh my God! We reality should, though.

Ben 

Issei fucks Mr. Unlucky in that movie! 

Shan 

Oh, we lost it. Grand Guignol, if you don't know, it’s a horror BL movie, it's on GagaOOLala. If you have watched a lot of Japanese BL, you should absolutely watch it because you will be fucking delighted. [laughs] But, you know, all the usual warnings that come with a straight up horror film. 

00:51:24 - Inbox: Worst Sex Scenes

Shan 

Let's get to the last part of Alex's question. Which is, “which sex scenes have been y’all’s worst on execution or bad chemistry?”

NiNi 

Hoo. 

Ben 

We have to acknowledge that despite the sheer volume of BL this current panel has watched, they actually don't have sex on screen in a lot of these shows. And so, there are things that I have, take more umbrage with in shows that didn't even have the sex. Like, as much as I love Make It Right, Peak was not a great actor at the time and was clearly nervous to be around Boom for the intimate scenes they had to do. That stands out. 

NiNi 

I feel like what it comes down to is, do the actors go for it or not, and for what quantity of go for it? There are always actors who’re gonna go for it and go too over the top and it doesn't feel genuine because they're not willing to sit in the moment. So they're goin’ hard, but it just feels like people smashing together. It doesn't feel like it's being acted. 

Ben 

List them, bestie!

Shan 

Name names! 

Ben 

List them, bestie!

Shan 

Name names! 

NiNi 

Let me finish my thought here. And then there are ones where it's too soft. You're telling me that these people have this welling up of emotion or sexual desire, whatever it is, and the way that they touch each other in those moments just does not feel like that. It does not feel desirous, it does not feel overwhelmed, it doesn't feel any of those things. It just feels robotic. Hate that. Basically, anything where I feel like the character of the scene does not match emotionally and physically, where the characters are, I don't enjoy. As actors, you've taken me out of the scene because I can't buy it anymore. I see the actor at that point, I see the actor hesitating. I don't see the character in the moment. 

Shan 

All right, name those names. 

NiNi 

[laughs] I was hoping I could get away from it. 

Ben 

No, no, ma'am. 

Shan 

The question was which scenes, you gotta at least name some shows. 

NiNi 

Y'all go first and I will come back around. 

Shan 

What about Playboyy, NiNi? 

NiNi

[disgusted sound]

Shan

There you go. The gag sound says it all [laughs]. 

NiNi 

There is literally nothing about Playboyy that I ever wanna think about again. Let's forget that that ever happened. And it could have been so good. 

Shan 

You think about your list. I have an answer to this. 

Ben 

Go ahead, bestie. Say what you need to say. 

Shan 

I did not live through Big Dragon and Sunset x Vibes to keep my mouth shut about this issue. I watched both of those shows! 

NiNi 

Why did you watch them, friend? 

Shan 

I'll tell you why. And listen, I have no beef with Mos and Bank. They seem like nice dudes. Great for them. I’m happy for them that they seem like they have good lives. They’re out there doing their thing, cool. 

But I do have beef with their shows and I'll tell you why. Because both of these shows were marketed to me as if they were going to be mature, dark stories that involved a lot of actually sexy sex, and neither of them delivered on that promise! Big Dragon at least had some halfway decent sex scenes when it started, before it suddenly devolved into being random BL fluff right in the middle. It started as enemies hate fucking and then by episode 2 they were like actually, we're in love. And I was like, what the fuck? This is not what I was promised. So anyway, those sex scenes at least had a little bit of verve to them, even though the story was a mess. 

Sunset x Vibes—and I have learned that that's how you're supposed to pronounce it, by the way—

NiNi

Nope. 

Shan

Terrible. Just no, if you haven't watched this show, please don't. It’s not good. It is not worth your time. It is a mess and a half. The sex scenes in particular were so disappointing because first of all, they decided to do some weird blushing maiden stuff that felt like it had no business being in the story. Had no idea why they were doing that. And then on top of that, the sex scenes were not particularly tied to character or story. They didn't tell us anything really about who these people were or anything about their relationship. Were just inserted, almost like they were PPL—product placement—breaks. It's like, ope, time for a sex break! They didn't do anything in the story. They were not narratively important, and they also were just not well performed. 

Again, I have no beef with these actors. There are many reasons why they might not have performed these sex scenes well, even though they have, in the past, done a better, or at least adequate, job at that. But these sex scenes were uncomfortable. They looked like they were filmed in a rush. There were strange edits in a lot of them. The kissing looked awkward, there were awkward angles being used. It was such a strange show, because it didn't deliver on story, it didn't deliver on the romance plot, it didn't deliver on the sex scenes. I had no idea what it was actually trying to do. 

What I'm trying to get at here is that you can't just go out in the world and say, “Sexy BL coming your way, it’s gonna be amazing!” and then deliver this tepid garbage. The audience is not gonna stick around because you say that there are some explicit sex scenes that are poorly executed. 

While we’re on the subject, we should mention that another Thai BL just tried this trick. Battle of the Writers suddenly taking a pause to re-edit their episode and put out the longest, most explicit sex scene by far in the show, in an attempt, it seems, to attract an audience back to the show and get people talking about it again. I think people did watch that sex scene. I don't think they watched the show, though. 

Ben 

We sure did. 

NiNi 

[laughs] With popcorn, rewound it and watched it again. 

Shan 

You can't just expect having NC-17 scenes in your show to carry it anymore. There is too much good content in the genre now. That was a rant, perhaps that you didn't ask for Alex, but that's my answer. Big Dragon and Sunset x Vibes failed on this test. 

Ben 

I am always the worst person to ask about these things, ‘cause if something's not good, I don't catalog it. I don't usually hold grudges against BL for being bad at sex and so, there's a lot of awkward sex scenes that I've forgotten. I don't remember really enjoying the sex scenes in shows like Nitiman because I don't even remember what happened. I remember just going, “hmm, that’s bad.” And I just moved on for my life at that point. 

Of the things we talked about on this show this year, probably the like worst one™ was the one we dialed in on when we talked about Unknown. And that isn't because the actors weren't willing to execute the scene with each other, it's that whatever that they were coached into doing didn't translate well into what was edited together in the scene that we got. They didn't really build towards their sex in a way that completed the narrative arc they were on with the older brother. Those are the ones that I tend to remember more than like, “ooh, those actors were, like, biting each other's lips. What the hell?” None of that ever sticks with me ‘cause I watch too much. I’m just like whatever, shuffle on. Maybe like back in the day, you would probably be like What the Duck? because I do not remember the leads, doing a good job on that show at all. 

NiNi 

Ooh.

Shan 

I still haven't watched that. 

Ben 

[singing cadence] You don't need to! 

Shan

And I never, ever will. 

[all laugh]

NiNi 

I'm gonna go for a quote unquote safe choice ‘cause I just don't feel like having the girls come for me for coming for their boys. 

Ben 

Uh-uh. I wanna hear the answer. Speak the truth on this show. 

Shan 

I just trashed MosBank out loud! 

Ben 

Say what needs to be said. 

NiNi 

I'ma just lay it out here and the girls are gonna have to come for me. I'm sorry. I love First and Khaotung. 

Shan

[excited gasp]

NiNi

They did one good sex scene in Only Friends. I don't think the rest of them were good. 

Shan 

Yes, bestie speak the truth! Let's speak truth to this powerful fan base!

[Shan and Ben laugh] 

Ben 

Yes! Kill ‘em, bestie. 

Shan 

Tell ‘em, say more!

NiNi 

I have never enjoyed a JoongDunk sex scene. 

Ben 

I sure haven't!

NiNi 

Nope.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

I still haven't watched any of their shows. I do not care. 

NiNi 

Mmm mm mm. And the third one, the safe one, is none of the sex scenes in Between Us were any good. 

Ben

Mmm.

Shan 

Ooh, okay. Expand on that. I feel like most people think the first couple episodes of that show are its saving grace because of the sex scenes. 

NiNi 

No, because I don't buy [Ben laughs] either of them really. It's the acting, it's the acting for me. 

Shan 

Okay. This is great, NiNi unleashed. I love it. 

NiNi 

Oh my God, I'm gonna get cancelled. 

[Shan laughs]

Ben 

Good, good. We deserve it. 

Shan 

Let’s let them try to cancel you. Let's let them try! 

Ben 

New Siwaj does get lucky sometimes and has actors who do okay together. The couple of times they've had decent bed scenes in his shows, like, I think the My Only 12% one was actually pretty decent. 

NiNi 

That was a decent one. 

Shan 

Santa and Earth have good chemistry. 

NiNi 

I think that the married sex scene in oh, God, what's that ForceBook one? Boss Baby! 

Ben 

A Boss and a Babe?

NiNi 

I always call it Boss Baby. Yeah. 

[all laugh]

Ben 

Where's my Boss Baby tweet?! 

Shan 

[valley girl voice] Force and Book were so good in Boss Baby. 

NiNi 

Let me stop calling this Boss Baby. A Boss and a Babe. New Siwaj hits on one from time to time. Most of the time I don't like the way that he directs sex scenes, but My Only 12% one was good. 

Ben 

I had a lot of beef with Only Friends, but I do think the car scene between Force and Neo’s characters was still a little compelling sequence. 

NiNi 

Oh hell yeah. 

Shan 

In the whole show, that was the best sex scene. People were not ready for that conversation, but it's the truth. 

Ben 

Followed by the Neo and Mark scenes. 

Shan 

Yeah. Neo and Mark were good in that show. 

NiNi 

Because they went for it, but they didn't go for it in like a, “oh, we're going for it” way. They went for it in an actual acting way. 

Ben 

Yes, you can see them fucking with each other the whole time. Each one was trying to outdo the other one in each scene, and I was like all right guys, I get it. You’re both athletes. 

Shan 

It’s rare for GMMTV shows, I think, to deliver truly good sex scenes because there's just too much other nonsense getting in the way. But it does happen. I still think one of the best, it's not really a sex scene, I guess, but a prelude to sex scene is Pat and Pran in Episode 11 of Bad Buddy. They just nail the anticipation and the heat of it to the point you don't even have to see the actual sex to feel like you just saw a really good sex scene. 

NiNi 

That one, and the one night stand in Moonlight Chicken. 

Shan 

Yeah. That's another one where they just nailed the anticipatory tension that can also create a really memorable scene that doesn't actually have to explicitly depict anything. And I think that's maybe the thing to think about here. It's not just the fact of a scene being super explicit that actually makes it sexy, and a lot of times shows are putting out these scenes that, all they have going for them is that they're super explicit, but they're not nailing the emotions, not nailing the characters, they're not getting the chemistry and the movement and the heat right. And so it's all empty. 

Ben 

An example of one that had us in a lot of the early part of the sex scene, but maybe not all of it, is the Episode 4 Ghost Host Ghost House scene. That has really good build up tension. 

Shan 

The legs! 

Ben 

Another example, they don't actually have sex in the show—a lot of that was because of quarantine protocols again, in the Philippines—is the kiss that they have in Boys Lockdown. I think that has really good building tension to it because of the mask mandate at the time. And I think that carries a really specific gay layer to it that I thought was really compelling. 

The problem is, 1, a lot of these shows don't have sex; 2, when they do have sex, a lot of it's kind of bad? The sex being bad isn't so stand out that we keep an ongoing list of grievances. 

Shan 

Speak for yourself, bestie, I got my grudges. 

Ben 

You're better at grudges than me. I'm too busy to be having grudges. 

Shan 

[laughs] I always got time. 

Ben 

Do not ask for my attention! It’s not good for you. 

01:04:24 - Bonus Round: Best Sex in a Bad Show

Shan 

NiNi, what question did you wanna ask? 

NiNi 

What is the best sex scene you've ever seen in a terrible show?

Ben 

Oh, interesting. 

Shan 

Oh. Good sex in a bad show. 

Ben 

Can I be mean and just say Make Our Days Count? [laughs]

NiNi 

[laughs] Oh my god, no you can't. 

Ben 

I’m still mad! I'll never not be mad. 

Shan 

You gotta think about an actual bad, like, a poorly made show that does sex well. 

Ben 

Why r u? 

Shan 

Yeah, I think that's the answer! 

Ben 

Not to be mean to the Why r u? team. Why r u? got crushed by the pandemic. Now, that show was probably not gonna be good anyway. 

Shan

No.

Ben

But, it's not their fault that their set basically got shut down. 

Shan 

Yeah, that's a really good answer to that 'cause Saint and Zee, that was a moment. I still think about Saint sucking on Zee’s Adam’s apple all the time. [NiNi and Shan laugh] It's so memorable, and they had such good chemistry. That show is a trash fire, but boy. 

Ben 

There's also some really goofy montage of sex in Destiny Seeker. Shan got that far in. 

Shan 

I watched the whole thing! I watched all of Destiny Seeker. It was oddly charming. It wasn't a particularly good show, but like, there were aspects of charm to it, and they did well on the sex. 

On that front, I would shout out City of Stars, which a lot of people I don't think have watched. It’s a show from this year, a Thai pulp, and I couldn't really say that it's a good show. The production values are low, it's got some green actors, but the sex was surprisingly great. Really well used in the narrative arc. Really well used in the relationship development and very enthusiastically performed. 

Thank you, Alex, for getting us to rant about sex scenes in BL for over an hour. 

[all laugh]

Ben 

We needed it, get it out of our system. 

Shan 

We needed to get some things off our chest, clearly. 

Ben 

I'm gonna end on this particular note. We need to see more people behaving like the MeMindY team. This trend towards really chaste BL or BL that's only willing to use sex if it feels like it's leading into something negative is not satisfying. Especially when sex is part of your storytelling. Do better! 

01:06:54 - Inbox: Critical Philosophy

NiNi 

We've got a comment, really, that came into our inbox from user @cuntextual. 

Shan 

And I want to be clear that that’s C-U-N-T cuntextual. 

Ben 

Oh, yes. Classic Tumblr name. A+! 

Shan 

Props for a fantastic username. They write: “Just dropping by to say you guys make my life better. [Shan says “Aw”] I listen to all your episodes, even for those shows I haven't watched, and I can't understate how much The Conversation has taught me about media criticism and QL history. So thank you so much for all your hard work.”

Very nice comment. Thank you, cuntextual. 

NiNi 

Thank you so much for the comment, cuntextual, and we wanted to use it as a frame to talk a little bit about media criticism. 

Ben 

This is the first time I feel like the BL bubble has really popped. BL hasn't sucked this hard since 2018. A lot of people weren't in the streets with us in 2018. They have no memory of this. A lot of folks joined during COVID. 2019 was a really good year for BL. A lot of people's favs are from that year. 2020 was a good year despite the lockdown. ‘21 was a solid year. ‘22 was a solid year. I had a great time last year in ‘23 and I do not know [singsong voice] what's going on this year. 

This is a good place for us to talk about, like, what is the role of a critic. For me, a critic is not a shill. It is not my goal or job to cheerlead shitty shows. My goal as a critic is to have a consistent lens and perspective from which I write that the listeners and readers can understand, so that when they're reading my takes they understand why I'm reacting the way I am. There are quite a few critics who I follow, who I often disagree with. But I like to read their perspectives because they're consistent. I know exactly where they're writing from, and that helps inform whether or not I might want to go see a movie in theaters or wait for it to come home. 

So when I'm reacting to shows on this podcast and on my blog, I am not here as a fangirl for BL. I am here as a queer cinephile. And so I'm here reacting because I want more English speaking people to engage with what's happening in these various Asian communities. As a result, when shit is good, you will hear me screaming “this shit is good!” But you will also hear me saying “that shit is bad.” The critic's job is to communicate to the audience who's listening to them hy shit might be good or bad as a means of helping them decide what might be worth their time to engage with. Anything else is just motherfuckers sittin’ around chattin’ about nothing. And that is not what I'm about. 

Shan 

I agree with a lot of what Ben just said. I don't really think about media criticism as clearly as Ben does in terms of bringing people to the genre and trying to recommend shows. I do that sometimes, I definitely like to yell about it when I really like something. But for me, I get a lot of personal enjoyment and pleasure out of breaking down stories. How they work, what makes them good, what makes them not so good. I like to approach media through thinking about what the components of the story are and how they're working together. And I get, honestly, a lot out of thinking about and talking about shows that don't work that well because that helps me learn too. 

So I don't really have stan loyalty to any show. I could start out loving a show, and if it goes off the rails for me, I'm going to say something about that and I'm going to try to unpack why and talk about it. Even if I really like an actor or a pair that's in a show, that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to think that their show is great. It’s great when that happens, but it often doesn't. And I really don't agree with the idea that the only way to support something is to cheerlead it uncritically. I've never agreed with that, that's just not how I interact with media. Bringing a lens of critique and taking the shows seriously and talking about them seriously is how I show respect and love to the media that I enjoy. I'm always gonna kind of show up that way when I'm interested in any kind of media that I'm watching. 

We've talked a little bit about the shift that we've been feeling in the genre. This is not new, it's just maybe the level of intensity feels like it's shifting towards commercialization and just selling product as the primary motive for most of these shows. And has very much crowded out the motive around good storytelling in a lot of cases. That has been the shift that I have most keenly felt. And that has particularly been very pronounced for me in Thai BL. I don't know if that's actually a uniquely Thai media thing. It might just be that that's where most BL still sits. Thai production companies produce vastly more BL than any other BL producing countries at present. 

One of the things that I noticed that I was talking with Twig about is that there has been a real dearth of high quality content coming out of other countries besides Thailand. In Korean BL, we have had a significant reduction in output, not necessarily in the number of shows, but in the quality and length of shows that we've been getting, significantly less this year than in the previous couple years. We've gotten fewer good shows from Taiwan. Japan actually, conversely has been producing more BL, but with a steep increase in output there has not been as consistent of a quality, and so we're now getting Japanese BLs that let us down in ways that we're not used to happening with Japan. 

It's felt a little bit like a transitional year to me, and this last few months in particular I think there have been a confluence of shows that have started really strong and then gone off the rails. That always feels really frustrating to me because I hate to get invested in something that then lets me down. That's way worse to me than something being just kind of bad from the start, from the whole way through. I'm still happy to be engaging with the genre so much. I'll keep doing it in the way that I always have, and I'm just hopeful that we'll still get a decent ratio of shows that are interested in storytelling compared to some that are not. 

NiNi 

It's very interesting to hear you all talk about your critical philosophy. I'm kind of all over the map on this stuff. I enjoy watching the shows and talking about the shows and analyzing the shows, and I also enjoy letting some of the shows wash over me. I'm not a consistent critic. Sometimes I do feel like a show is more like me putting on my critical hat and wanting to look at it in terms of, okay, what is this technically doing? What is happening here? And then sometimes I don't want to do that with a show. Either it gets me in the heart place, a place where I don't feel like I either can or want to turn that lens on it. It comes down to me, for me, on what the show is doing for me. There are some shows which I can see are probably objectively not great but I'm enjoying the critical aspect of it because I get to puzzle out in my head. Okay, what exactly is not working here and really get into the integrity of it. There’s stuff that's not great that I don't wanna do that with because I'm just having such a good time. There's stuff that's good that I wanna put my critical hat on and there's stuff that's good that I don't wanna do that either. I'm really all over the map when it comes to the idea of a critical philosophy and it really just depends on the show. 

One of the things about getting all this additional volume, all of these stories upon stories upon stories that are happening, is that the more we get, the more diverse and diffuse the audience gets, and I think that's maybe some of what's being struggled with, as well. There are still shows that we are all watching and all enjoying, but increasingly I feel like there are shows that are sort of, okay, this is speaking to this particular person or these one or two or this group of particular people and not this other group of people. Ben was talking about this when he was talking about Tadaima, Okaeri, that once all the people who weren't going to be interested in it faded away he had such a good time discussing it with the people who were there because they wanted to be there. I feel like this is something we talked about at the end of last year as well. The number of shows that is really a full fandom experience is shrinking every time, every season, every year, and things are getting more stratified, more diffuse, more separate. I don't necessarily know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It’s just a thing that's happening. 

There's always gonna be, at least I hope that there's always gonna be those shows that we are all really agreeing on. All enjoying all, like, yeah, this is knocking it out of the park on all the quadrants. The various quadrants that we hold there. And we can talk about them from that space of we are enjoying this for very different reasons, but we are all enjoying it. Rather than sort of talking across each other at cross purposes because we are either enjoying it for a reason that is exactly why another person is not enjoying it, if that makes sense? So that's kind of where I'm sitting right now. Yes, the fandom experience is kind of separating into its little nooks, which is in some ways not as fun, 'cause there's not as many people to talk to about the show when you really like something. But, I hope that we're still gonna get stuff that's gonna let us all come together. 

Ben 

The hard part about being a critic this way is you have to be there for a lot of stuff. It's hard to do good critical work behind the zeitgeist. You need to be on the front lines with the viewers reacting in real time, like, that's the experience. And so you really want to be there for the shit that's going on. And it is disheartening as a viewer to start a show having a good time and then have your reactions become grumpier from week to week. It's not fun. It burns out the audience, too, like they're not having fun with that either. I don't want that to be the default expectation of the genre. That is not my goal when I start watching a show to rag on it, it's not how I want to spend my time. 

I want this to be fun. [laughs] Truly. And I'd like for it to start being fun consistently again. 

01:18:31 - Outro

Ben 

Clearly we need to rein in questions from Alex. I feel like we spent 50 minutes talking about Alex.

NiNi 

Alex got us talking about sex work over an hour. This is ridiculous. 

Ben 

I just want you all to know that I was silenced on this podcast and not everything I said was allowed to be aired. 

NiNi 

I mean some of the things that you said, bestie, were a little on the borderline. 

Ben 

Thank you all again for sending us in your questions. We do look forward to them and they often lead to really interesting discussions for us. If you're curious about more, our inbox will be open after we finish this current season. 

NiNi 

I mean, how much after are we talking about? I know I've gotten really bad at this. I gotta get better. Okay, we're gonna try to be better about this. Gonna try. 

Ben 

Like any other blog, we will get to your asks when we get to them. 

NiNi 

And yet we get to them. But we know that you love us and you will stay tuned and wait. 

NiNi 

And with that, we out. Say bye to the people Ben. 

Ben 

Peace! 

[the-conversation-pod]

Finally, Some Good Fucking Food: The Marahuyo Project and Ossan no Pantsu Episode

AND WE'RE BACK!

After a longer break than we expected, we are finally back to catch up on some shows we really enjoyed this season. Come join us for a Bangers Only episode as we take a break from BL and explore the queer truth found in JP Habac and ANIMA Studios' (Gaya sa Pelikula) Marahuyo Project and Ossan no Pants ga Nandatte Ii Janai ka! aka Don't Care For an Old Man's Underwear!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome

00:01:15 - Introduction

00:08:40 - Marahuyo Project: A Queer Activist's Story

00:20:24 - Marahuyo Project: On Queerness

00:30:16 - Marahuyo Project: Our Characters

00:42:09 - Marahuyo Project: The Christina Story

00:48:52 - Marahuyo Project: Parents and Children

00:54:54 - Marahuyo Project: Final Thoughts and Ratings

00:59:48 - Ossan no Pants

01:05:18 - Ossan no Pants: Our Characters

01:26:30 - Ossan no Pants: Key Character Arcs

01:36:49 - Ossan no Pants: Furuike and That Fucking Guy

01:45:25 Ossan no Pants: Final Thoughts and Ratings

01:51:18 - Importance of Variety in Media Consumption

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Introduction

Ben 

And we're back. This week we're going to be taking a little bit of a break from BL and doing a special class pre-award season discussion of two shows we loved so much that it restored my faith in television as a genre. We're going to be discussing Marahuyo Project from ANIMA Studios and we're going to be discussing Don't Care for an Old Man's Underwear! The Japanese name is Ossan no Pantsu ga Nandatte Ii Janai ka! 

Before we get into this, we're gonna do a little bit of a breakdown on our special class awards and why we often will pull them aside from our BL discussion. NiNi, would you like to offer some insight for us?

NiNi 

Sure, Ben, but first, we've got a guest. Say hi, Shan. [laughs]

Shan 

Ben just forgot that I'm a guest at this point. 

Ben 

It’s true. Shan's still here! She has not left the booth. [laughs]

Shan 

I just stay here permanently now. I have squatted in the booth. Hi people, it's Shan.

NiNi 

Always good to have you around, Shan. 

So, so we are talking a little bit outside of the BL genre this week. We are talking about our special class type programs. We have several categories of special class in our VIIB awards, but the one that we're talking about here is standout queer narrative. Those queer stories that are not technically romances, or at least go beyond the romance genre to reveal and get into some kind of queer truth that maybe romance is not best placed to delve into.

Ben 

Since Shan is here and she has watched so many dramas, [laughs] Shan, why don't you walk us through some of the things that distinguish broader sort of family- and community-oriented dramas versus, like, romcoms and romantic dramas.

Shan 

I think what makes a show a family drama, versus a romance drama that has family elements, is really what drives the story, what the focus and locust of the story is. In a romance, in a BL or a GL, a QL in general, the primary driver of the plot is a romantic relationship. In a family drama, what drives the plot is more about the relationships of a family unit. Or a drama that's more about community, like something like a Moonlight Chicken, you get community and the relationships between different community members, friendships and neighbors and things like that, being the driving force of the plot.

So when you're talking about categorization, that's really the difference. It's not that a family drama or a community-based drama cannot include romances. They very often or even usually do. It's just about really what drives the story. And in both of the dramas that we're talking about today, what drives the story is relationships that are more familial in nature or more friendship-oriented or more about how a community of people comes together.

Ben 

Something else that I think is notable in different styles of drama is what role the supporting cast has. NiNi, you've been probably the biggest fan of side characters and their roles in all the various QL we've watched. I’d like you to maybe talk a little bit about the role you feel for side characters in romance versus side characters in dramas.

NiNi 

When it comes to side characters in a romance, these people are usually the friends and family of the main couple. And they're usually deeply integrated into how these two people are coming together. Sometimes they have their own stories happening alongside that are sort of echoing the themes or maybe even opposing the themes in some really interesting ways. That's what I'm looking for when I'm thinking about side characters in a romance story. 

When you’re going outward to like family or community and talking about those stories, what you're looking for, for me anyway, is an expansion of the world. I want to know everything about this universe when I'm getting into a family drama, a community drama, a workplace drama. I want it to expand. I am a romance girl, so I like when a romantic drama focuses on the couple, and yes, you get some expansion of the world in that and an understanding of the world around them. But the couple's really the focus. I think in these wider dramas, I like understanding how these people's world operates and how they are all connected to each other inside of that world.

Ben 

I like the way you broke that down. In BL in particular, the friends are always built around their support for the core couple. Even in our award season, we award a Best Boy and Best Girl award each year. And that usually goes to one of the standout friends that supported our romantic leads. But in drama like this, I'm interested, like she said, in expanding the world, like what perils and challenges are the side characters facing that help add flavor to the core themes that we're exploring here? 

So with the two shows are gonna be talking about today, Marahuyo Project is about a young man who's a very out queer activist in his school in Manila, and after being expelled from the school is sent to a very rural town and there decides to create an LGBT club. Sorry, he uses the full acronym. LGBTQIA+ community while he's there. In our other show, Oppan for short, we're dealing with a middle-aged man kind of a grognard stuck in his way who, after a surprise encounter with a young gay man decides it's time for him to update himself and rebuild his relationship with his family and his co-workers. And it's a show fundamentally about personal growth. 

So those themes don't necessarily prioritize romance in them. And we'll get into that more as we focus on those shows. The last thing I wanna highlight before we talk about these shows, ‘cause we've been talking about it a lot, particularly with last season's complex disappointments for us, neither of these shows is in the bubble. These shows exist in a world very reminiscent of our own, and homophobia and the expectations of society at large and how queer people should conform are very much present themes in these stories.

And with that, NiNi, take us in!

NiNi 

Why is NiNi always taking us in? NiNi never knows what's happening here. [laughs]

00:08:40 - Marahuyo Project: A Queer Activist's Story

NiNi

So first up we're going to talk about the Marahuyo Project from the Philippines. Ben, what is Marahuyo Project about?

Ben 

About how that thankfully ANIMA Studios is not dead and Gaya sa Pelikula is not the last thing we're gonna see from them. JP Habac is still out there, friends, and he's still making stuff. 

Marahuyo Project is a kind of, like, a romance drama, sorta, about a young man named King. He is a queer activist at his school in Manila and he does not like the dean of his school. He ends up fussing with her and to piss her off, he ends up making out with his friend in front of her. She tries to separate them and he throws her to the ground accidentally, gets expelled for laying hands on her. And so he is sent away to the town of Marahuyo, a town very far from Manila, and he has to figure out how to exist in this community that doesn't have very much of an out queer network here. He decides to build an LGBTQIA+ organization on campus. And as with everything with these sort of stories, as soon as one person starts coming out, other people start coming out quite loudly in response, or not so loudly in other ways. This show is really fascinating because they insisted on using the entire LGBTQIA+ acronym, and they were intentional about that. 

Adrian Lindayag played King in this and he was also in The Boy Foretold by the Stars, which I forced Shan to watch. And she did not like it!

Shan 

You sure did. Forced is the right word. 

Ben

And she did not like it!

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

I did not like it! But I loved Adrian. I was so excited to see him get another show, and a frankly much better written show. [laughs]

Ben 

And his friend who he kisses in the first episode is played by Tommy Alejandrino, who was the lead in The Day I Loved You, a show that I really loved. And I thought it was really special and kind of interesting that this show led in its very first episode with a kiss between two boys whose actors had played kind of femme-y characters before this. That felt really intentional.

I actually want to start with you, NiNi, because you grew up in an island community. I actually want your perspective on King being moved from the metro of Manila to an island that doesn't really have a stable power grid for all day power, and how you feel about him going from an urban center to a rural town.

NiNi 

It's so funny. I grew up in Trinidad and the southern Caribbean. Trinidad is considered a quote-unquote rich country and I grew up in the city. But I have friends who grew up in the country. My own family is from the country. My aunt used to tell stories, leaving town and going down to the country to spend time with her father's family, with her grandmother, sometimes with her cousins, and my friends now tell stories about that kind of stuff, as well. There's even a joke sometimes that if you got into trouble in town they would send you down south which is more rural. Or they would send you to live with your grandmother in Manzanilla, which is another rural area. So, there's some elements of that to the stories that I knew about the way that people grow up. And so there's a lot about Marahuyo that reminded me, not just of parts of Trinidad, but of other parts of the Caribbean that I'm familiar with and people that I know and that I'm friends with, have grown up in. 

So the whole thing about getting sent to country, it was so familiar in a lot of ways. That whole thing about not having power, or having these village politics kind of mentality about a lotta things. And ways that people can surprise you as well, because you have certain expectations of people who come from those kinds of communities and that kind of background and those kinds of situations where, you know, oh, you don't have lights, what do you know about anything? People make assumptions about people being backward or whatever, and actually no, that's not how it is. So this had a hint of familiarity to it in terms of the story. 

Also, I was glad to see it because so many Filipino stories are set in metro Manila or are set in the pretty tourist parts, not places like Marahuyo. I really enjoyed seeing that aspect of life in the Philippines. It felt very homey to me in a lot of ways. But this is one of the things that I enjoy about Filipino drama and about Filipino BL. A lot of these BLs are coming from countries that do feel familiar to me, but Filipino BL in particular has that ring of familiarity to me in a way that some of these other places don't.

Shan

NiNi, I think what you said about the assumptions people have about people who live in these more isolated places in the country or, like, on a small island, is really such an important thing that informed this story. Because King stormed onto that island with his big city attitude and he assumed that every single person he met was a hick who would never understand him. And I think one of the best parts of this story was seeing him have his eyes opened to the reality that there are queer people everywhere and there are people who can understand him everywhere and he has to be open to seeing them and connecting with them. I thought that was such an important piece of the journey that he went on as the main character of this story. I really loved the way the show peeled back those first assumptions that he had about a lot of the people he met in Marahuyo.

Ben 

It's very clear that King was sent to Marahuyo in the hopes that isolating him there digitally and physically would sort of, like, contain him. And it didn't. He seemed to adapt to his circumstances fairly quickly, even as he demanded that those circumstances [laughs] also adapt to him. I thought it was really interesting that they sent him to the mom who abandoned him essentially to hang out and live with his grandmother who's always had his back. That was probably one of the most unexpected dynamics in the whole show. I was not expecting that complex set of interactions where the grandma was so on his side that she had put a whole pride flag in his room and had dresses ready to help his friend, but the mom's still sorting her shit out.

Shan 

I loved the nuance of that, because… it can be complicated. We are shaped to some degree by our families and by the people who raised us, but we're also shaped by the world we live in. And I thought it was a cool choice to have King have an accepting and loving grandmother. His mother did not learn her fear and her bigotry from her own mother. And I think that's an interesting choice that really reflects reality.

Ben

I think what worked really well about having his grandma be so queer friendly is that when she tells him to give Marahuyo a chance, the growth arc that you mentioned is possible because he's able to receive that message from someone he trusts and respects, who he knows also trusts and respects him. I think that that sets him up to be open to learning things. ‘cause he spends the beginning of almost every episode giving us a small lesson in Filipino queer history, particularly as it pertains to colonization. 

I was gonna go to NiNi for that one and see if you had thoughts about that because you've spoken at length about the diasporic experience and living under extensive colonialism.

NiNi 

I mean, how much time do we have to have this conversation?

Ben 

Probably five to eight minutes.

[all laugh]

Shan

Yeah, do your whole talk on colonialism in five minutes, NiNi.

NiNi 

Oh my god, okay, no pressure. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons that Filipino BL in particular does speak to me because of that colonized experience. The colonized experience is so specific and so similar all over the world, no matter where you were colonized or who you were colonized by. You recognize it in people, you recognize it in the society, you recognize it in the environment. The way that the Philippines is so Catholic and Catholicism is all over this story. How Catholicism has harmed people, how people find shelter in it, how people find safety in it, it's all over this. 

And one of the things about coming from a place that was colonized is that you have this sort of weird love/hate relationship with the people and the places and the experiences of the colonizer. On the one hand, like, revolution, resistance, that's part of it. And that's part of what King is dealing with as well. Talking about the parts of history that get hidden by the colonizer because it's inconvenient to them or they wanna bury some particular truth. That's the resistance part, but also the part where people are talking about things like tradition and gentility and all that stuff that the various deans, because it's two deans—three deans, I think—in this story. And they're all talking about things like propriety and respectability. And those are things that you're fighting against every single day, where those ideas even come from is a place in yourself that you sort of recognize, but you fight against every day. The experience of being colonized does a number on your head, it does a number on your society. It is wild to experience.

One of the things that I enjoyed about this is that it did give me that kind of feeling of wanting something out of the experience that you're not even sure what it is. Like you want revolution, but you also want all the things that the colonizer told you to have. It's this bizarre feeling. 

Shan 

It’s a mindfuck.

NiNi 

Yeah, it is a mindfuck. And it's a hard thing to explain to anybody who hasn't had the experience.

00:20:24 - Marahuyo Project: On Queerness

Ben 

I wanna start moving into our character specific discussion. When King first gets to the island, he has a very weird meet cute [Shan laughs] with like the island's favorite boy who's the scion of their most beloved or most successful, whatever, family—the Soliman family—where a, like, shit ton of fish gets thrown in the air. [laughs]

Shan

There's so many fishes!

NiNi 

He literally gets showered in fish and I'm like, this is so clever. Like, as a joke, it was a very good joke. 

Shan

Very effective.

NiNi

It was a very effective joke. And as a metaphor, also extremely effective. It was so good. This is the kinda shit that JP Habac excels at.

Ben 

I knew you were gonna love that. So, right away, because King won't shut the fuck up about the fact that he's queer, he ends up finding a trans girl in his class almost immediately, who's also beefing with the local priest, who ends up going by the name of Venice. And the two of them team up and decide they're gonna start their own LGBTQIA+ organization. And Venice, was like, we added more letters? Wait, what?! [laughs] How do I say all of those? 

Shan 

I love my naive girl. She doesn't know anything.

Ben

She's so pretty. [laughs] Also, shout out to Venice for eating in, like, every scene—

Shan

Every scene!

Ben

—for eight episodes.

NiNi 

So much rambutan, I swear.

Shan 

Always eating rambutan specifically, not just eating, eating this specific island fruit. [laughs] She loves ‘em.

Ben

So, Ino's family is very beloved on this island and Ino is the first obstacle they think they have to get past to getting their organization approved. But very quickly we suss out that Ino is likely closeted. And then we confirm that he's closeted in a really interesting bit we'll get into in a bit. 

I wanted, while we're here talking about the island politics, NiNi, to talk about the reveal we get later on that Ino’s ancestor, who his family has all of this pride for, exists because he outed a queer man and then robbed him. And then the island community built a tradition around the poetry that they stole from a queer man, who they then basically drove to death.

NiNi 

Yeah. This is a comedy, by the way.

[all laugh]

NiNi 

I just had to fire that one out.

Shan 

We started with all this super serious stuff. It sounds like such a heavy show. And it is, kind of, but it doesn't feel heavy. It just deals with heavy things.

Ben 

The themes are actually heavy when you think about them, but because you've got really optimistic and energetic young people, it doesn't feel as heavy as it actually is.

NiNi 

It really doesn't. But I mean, again, this is a story of colonization. Things get stolen all the time. Your own history gets stolen from you. And you have to go back into history and find your truths. So that work of uncovering and unearthing and archiving and storytelling and passing things down from generation to generation, that is real active work that takes place every single day in a colonized place. Unlearning a lot of what the colonizer tells you about yourself. All of that is part of the colonized experience and that's what I was really gratified to see them tackling in this show. This idea that they hid the truth from you and now you have to not only go and learn the truth but tell it to as many people as possible.

Shan 

Yeah, and I think it's really meaningful that they found out this truth via a story told to them by an elder on the island who they just kind of happened upon.

Ben 

But it happened because they were doing research. They were trying to justify their organization and it was recommended to them that they show that this organization would be good for Marahuyo as it currently is, not just because some kid from Manila says they need to have this. And so the trio that had formed at that point was doing real research into the history of the town itself, and that's what eventually led them to asking this woman about this history.

Shan 

Yeah, and to tie that into the romance, which you kind of alluded to, Ben, but we haven't really talked about is, King and Ino, they start with a very antagonistic relationship. Over time we figure out this antagonism on Ino's side is because King is pulling things out of him that he's trying to suppress. He feels uncomfortable because he is a closeted queer kid and King is loudly and forcefully demanding that folks recognize his queerness and also the queerness within themselves. And so, they have an uncomfortable dynamic that starts to smooth out over time as they get to know each other and understand each other better and as Ino decides to kind of push back his fear and start helping King try to make this club happen. 

So it's in that context that they're on this research trip and they go to this elder and she sits them down and she tells them this story. And that is how Ino finds out that his whole family legacy is built on a lie and that his ancestor harmed somebody who's just like him, a gay man who did nothing wrong. All he did was profess his feelings for somebody who didn't return them. And he was destroyed over that. That is what Ino's family legacy was built on. Finding that out was just a huge moment of despair for him. And in some ways brought him and King closer together as they worked through that, and in other ways made it even harder, I think, to imagine being able to be with someone like King, who's so open and so free. It was a really beautiful moment and it was a really important moment, both in the romance and in the broader story.

NiNi

There's two things that you said there, Shan, that I actually want to pull out. The part that you said about Ino’s ancestor having harmed somebody whose only sin was expressing feelings to somebody who didn't return them. I actually, I can't remember exactly, but wasn't the story that he did return the feelings and then panicked about them, or something like that? I can't remember.

Shan

I think we don't know.

Ben 

That part is unclear.

Shan

It's a speculation. 

Ben

What we learned, based upon what is provable, that he had written poems about his unrequited love for the Soliman ancestor. And then the Soliman ancestor unintentionally—or maybe intentionally—discovered these poems. He had not been given them. I think that's a big part of this too, is that—what's his name, Nalundasan—was outed. And then the Soliman ancestor turned on him in a vile way. And that ended horribly. And—

Shan 

So we don't know if he turned on him because he was afraid, because he was suppressing his own queerness, or if he was just a garden variety, homophobic heterosexual man. We don't know.

Ben 

I think what also makes me particularly sad about that story is Nalundasan, the person that they harmed in this, had performed a role as a community and cultural leader. And had chosen to closet himself, he left descendants behind. He formed a marriage and had kids. This was just the part of his life that he was not able to express, so he expressed it in his poetry that he had kept private until it was made public. And that part is really sad too, because Ino is closeted and knows it. 

A lot of times in BL, a lot of these guys are, like, untapped sexual beings who are activated by the power of BL and product placement. In this story, most of the characters are well aware of how they feel about who they are and what's going on with them. King definitely knew who he was the whole time. His loud gay ass showed up with his mullet and was like, you can't tell me what to do. 

Shan 

His rainbow mullet.

Ben

Speaking of his mullet, I have to get this out on the podcast. I will never forgive his mother for cutting his hair while he was asleep. That was horrible and vile. And the only thing saving her from these knives is she's played by Sue Prado.

[Shan laughs]

NiNi 

No, but legit, the fact that the show lets this go really upset me. Because it was such a violation. When it happened, I gasped. And the show gave it a lot of grace and let it go and that did not sit right with my spirit, I have to say.

Ben 

I agree.

00:30:16 - Marahuyo Project: Our Characters

Ben

Ino is an interesting queer character in that when he sees King right away, he sees him almost as a threat, because Ino is trying not to draw attention to his own queerness. Like, it's clear he maybe wants to leave at some point and then deal with his shit. And he can feel that he's not going to be able to get away with that around King. He's also drawn to King because, I mean, why wouldn't he be? He's tall, he's really pretty. He wears ridiculously gay shirts. Some of them show off his midriff.

Shan 

And he's brave! He's brave in a way that—

Ben

So brave!

Shan

—-Ino wishes he was. That's the thing, right?

NiNi 

There's so much about King and King and Venice in particular that had me thinking a lot about the importance of the people who can't hide.

Ben 

Mmhmm.

NiNi

And what they mean to the community and what it means for them to be out there at the vanguard, taking all the shit and how that's almost never recognized or rewarded or anything like that. But it's so important for the ones who are like Ino, the ones who are like Archie, to see the Kings and the Venices just loud and out in front and visible and unhideable and unapologetic and what that means. And the show really made you feel that. It made you feel not just that King and Venice are brave, but also how important what they were trying to do was, what the mission for them was.

Ben 

It's also interesting too because their mission is not academic for them. King was dealing with homophobia even in Manila. Then he lands in Marahuyo and he's like, same shit different day. That man got called a slur and was like “hmph, uncreative.” And I was like, wow, they're throwing slurs around in these shows again. Finally, mask off. And I was weirdly relieved that the show was mask off about its homophobia because it's very frustrating sometimes to talk about shows where the homophobia is kind of subtle. And you have to argue with people about your interpretation, where they think you're being cruel to the show for recognizing what the show is doing. I like that that wasn't an issue here, thank you, JP Habac! 

But in terms of what Venice is dealing with and what Archie and Ino are dealing with, queerness is also not academic for them either. King is not the first other homo they've ever encountered, because we learn that Ino's father almost or temporarily left his family for a love with another man and then chose to come back to his family and stay with their mom. And his dad explains that he loves Ino's mom and wants to be her husband even if it means he cannot enjoy his attraction to men. So, Ino is dealing with, like, a double closet in his life where the whole fucking town knows about his dad steppin’ out on his mom with a man. 

We learn that Venice and Archie lost their friend.

Shan 

Should we do, Ben, a rundown of the characters? ‘Cause we haven't really done that yet.

Ben 

We probably should. Let's go down the whole cast! 

Shan 

Let's go down the list.

Ben

We've got King, our favorite gay boy with a mullet that should not have been lost. [Ben and Shan laugh] We have Ino, who's our big man on campus who gets his shit rocked. We've got Venice, everyone's favorite local trans girl. Who eats rambutan all the time.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

She loves those fucking rambutans.

Ben 

Hanging around the local priest all the time is Archie, Venice's former friend who has pulled back on his friendship with Venice because of the death of their friend, who he repeatedly deadnames over the course of the show until he finally cracks through the core of his grief.

Archie is a complex character to talk about because he is also queer in some way and suffering in his own closet. And he's choosing a path that leads him to the priesthood as a way to survive under the pressures of the homophobia he lives under. 

NiNi 

So many thoughts about that.

Shan 

Yeah, let's not, let’s not lose sight of the girls. Let's not go down the Archie Road yet. We also have—

Ben 

Lorena! Aka Lorie. Lorie is probably some kind of queer. Might be bi, might be a lesbian, might be asexual. It's very clear—

Shan 

She's figuring it out.

Ben

—she's still figuring it out by the end of the show. We are not going to label her here because she has not chosen one for herself. She is sorting through her own angst with men because of her own father's infidelity. And she's very close to her friend, Lili, who is eventually revealed to be probably intersex. And it's very clear that their friendship is extremely important to them in a way feels romantic on Lili's end, but Lorie is still sorting through. But the reveal from Lili to Lorie about this truth about her is one of my favorite moments in the whole show. 

And then there's that asshole Marco who ruins it like five minutes later. I hate that boy.

Shan 

Marco, our villain. 

Ben

I hate that boy.

Shan

He's really the most villainous character in the show. 

Ben

I hate that boy so much!

Shan

He's the worst. He's the fucking worst.

Ben

[laughs]I hate him. I hate him so much! Mmmmmm.

Shan 

This is a story that takes place on a small island, but it’s also in a school. So there are school dynamics at play here with this group and how they come together. King and Venice connect pretty much right away when he gets there because they are both visibly queer and they latch onto each other. And King is very much, as Ben said earlier, an activist. He is loud and proud and he demands respect for his existence. And he also wants to create space for other people like him, or somewhere on the queer spectrum to have pride and to be able to come out and have space, too. Venice is very classic sunshine character. That girl is so pretty and so dumb and she's just the nicest girl, just ever! [laughs] But she just doesn't really know much. She doesn't know much about queerness because she's been very isolated. So King is teaching her about what it means to be a queer activist, what some of these terms mean, what it means to try to fight for your space, ‘cause she has been in a space of insisting on living as herself, but also accepting that in some ways she would have to just be quiet and conform to get by in the school, and King doesn't find that acceptable. So they latch onto each other through that.

And then Lorie is the mayor's daughter, so she has a lot of status in the town, similar to Ino, who’s part of this family that is the big legacy family. So they both have a lot of positional power within the school and within the community, which they use over the course of the story to help with the club and helping some of these other kids who are more like outcasts. Lili is friends with Lorie and that's her social entree in the school. Archie is part of the local church and close with the priest, which gives him a kind of authority too. He's seen on the island as almost like the deputy priest.

Ben 

I have to say it, he has the authority given to an overseer.

Shan 

Exactly. That is definitely his role. He's kind of a cop. 

And Marco is just a little asshole who’s just a fucking asshole to everybody all the time. And they're all in school together, they're in this forced proximity and King and his arrival to the island really awakens in a lot of these kids who are queer but have been suppressing it, who are closeted either knowing or not, he really awakens in them this kind of connection to their own queerness. And they have varying responses to that. Some of them really joyfully wanting to come and be part of what he's building. Some of them being really afraid of it. We see the whole spectrum of responses there.

Ben 

I think what also really works for me in terms of how this felt particularly queer, there's two big things. First, spoiler alert, they do not get to have their club. They are not given official approval for their club, but then they go, fuck you, we don't need it anyway. And then they have their march regardless. I love that. 

The other part I like is that we have three characters who agree to out themselves in some way by trying to pursue the organization that they want to have. You get King, who's like, “I'm gay. You can use whatever slurs you want. They apply.” You got Venice, who's chosen to stay optimistic despite the death of Christina. And then you've got Lorie, who's like, you guys suck. I have way more fun with these guys. I'm going over there with them. And then each of them ends up holding the confidence of someone else who is closeted that they're close to.

King is developing a romance with Ino, Venice is holding the confidence of Archie, who does not come out over the course of this show. He's still closeted in the end and cheering for them from the closet. Something that I really appreciate the show doing. There are still people in our communities who do not feel safe enough to come out. And Lorie is holding Lili's confidence about her truth about being intersex. And I like that those three did not betray that confidence to each other. I thought that was a really important thing that the show did because when you are protecting someone who's closeted, the best way to do that is to shut the fuck up. You don't even tell people who could be trusted with that info because it's not your info to share.

That's the big point about protecting closeted people, is, if they're gonna come out, they need to feel like it's something that they have control over. What's so evil about Marco is he went out of his way to take that moment from Lili because she embarrassed him because he wouldn't stop sexually harassing Lorie.

NiNi 

Yeah, I do like that you get three different takes on that whole, I guess you could call it end game, of the closet because you've got Archie who stays in, you've got Ino who comes out, and then you've got Lili who gets outed. And then you get to see how each of those things impact the characters. I found that to be really, really interesting to watch.

00:42:09 - Marahuyo Project: The Christina Story

Shan 

We should talk more, we've been alluding to it, but we should fully elaborate on the backstory with Archie and Venice because it is, I think, one of the most touching stories that this show told. 

So Archie and Venice and their friend Christina grew up together. They have been best friends since childhood. We don't get every detail, but what we do learn over time is that Christina, like Venice, was trans and somewhere in her transition and in her coming out, something went very badly for her and she ended up, presumably, ending her own life. This created very different responses in Archie and in Venice. Venice kind of carried on, she's a very optimistic person at heart and she carried on that way, kept Christina's memory close, and continued to live in her truth as a trans woman and carry that forward. Archie became so deeply afraid of queerness and the way that it could damage somebody's life that he locked up tight, and as a result of that, rejected Venice and her transition. 

When the story begins, he seems like—on the surface—just this hateful bigot. He's constantly deadnaming Venice and Christina. He is disapproving of Venice. He doesn't support her. And then you find out more about this history that they share together. And you find out more about what motivates him and how ultimately at the root of it he really is just so terrified for Venice that she will end up like Christina. And he thinks, wrongly of course, that preventing her from transitioning is going to save her life. And that is what is driving his behavior. What a nuanced story to tell about what is normally reduced to something so simple and hateful.

The emotions between Archie and Venice are so complex. And Venice, because she's a very kind and generous person, she has a lot of space for Archie. She understands why he's behaving the way he is, and she gives him a lot of grace around it. And she really tries to support him. Like, he is so afraid and doing so much to suppress his own queerness that it's manifesting physically for him. We see throughout the show he's got this anxiety habit of scratching at his neck. It gets gross, like, to the point where he's basically scratching—

Ben

It was gross. 

Shan

—his skin off. 

Ben 

If you have any phobias or squicks around people self harming because they've been scratching at themselves too much. You're gonna want to maybe be ready to look away when they show the back of Archie's neck—

Shan

Yeah, be prepared.

Ben

—because he's legit tearing his own body apart. They manifest how deeply he's tearing himself apart in the way he's scratching up his neck. It's really uncomfortable to watch.

Shan 

It is. And so Venice sees that, and she has a lot of sympathy for him. She understands why he's behaving in this way. And she doesn't tell anybody else. That's their private personal history. And she doesn't think it's hers to tell. It's just a really nuanced look at how these fears and anxieties and how suppression of your own queerness can manifest in these different forms of self-harm and harm to others. I just, I found it to be such a beautiful and touching story that didn't get all the way resolved by the end of the show, because you don't just fix something this deep overnight.

NiNi 

I think that the colonized thing adds another layer to this as well because the place that Archie is running towards, running away from himself, is the church. That's the colonial ramification. That's the idea that respectability will save you. That comes from the colonizer. All of that stuff is on top of all this other stuff that's happening with Archie. It's something that I recognize from people that I know, people that I grew up with, people who grew up in the Catholic Church, definitely, but also in other traditions that are imported traditions, that are colonizer traditions. This idea that if you are part of the establishment, if you are part of what they value, if you are somehow involved in that stuff, then you're safe. These ideas are not uncommon to even uncolonized societies, but there's a whole different layer and level of it that you get in colonized societies or societies that were colonized.

I don't even know if I can accurately describe how it works, but just know that there's layers to this shit. And one of those layers is Archie trying to disappear into the Catholic Church.

Ben 

My favorite thing about Archie, too, was despite how awful he seemed at first, they gave us signs early on that there was more going on here. There was the way that Venice didn't sneer at Archie. She mostly looked annoyed and disappointed. Like, it was clear that they had a relationship. And there was a moment when an adult stormed in on their party and Venice was in a dress. Archie, from the shadows, reaches out to her back and tries to pull her back from being seen because he's worried that something might happen to her. And I'm like, never mind. I know where the story is going! And I was way less worried about Archie. 

By the time we get the reveal about what happened to Christina, Archie is the one who is seemingly the most visibly devastated by this loss. So, all of his cruelty towards them was given context for me that doesn't make it okay, but humanizes it. This is not the best way to cope with this, because shoving your other friend into a closet is not going to help her either. But I understand that this is how you're trying to cope. It's not helping you, either. But I understand you.

00:48:52 - Marahuyo Project: Parents and Children

Ben

So, on a lighter note! [laughs] Since we've talked about a lot of sad things here.

Shan 

Here we go! This is a comedy. Let's remember. [laughs]

NiNi 

I was just about to say.

Ben 

On a lighter note, one of the most absolutely fantastic things about this show was the way that they had Adrian constantly breaking the fourth wall to look at us and kiki with us as the audience.

Shan 

Yes! Whenever King would look at us, I would get so thrilled. [laughs] And he was always pulling the best faces.  [laughs] 

Ben 

Adrian is really funny. Adrian, I don't think you'll ever hear us because we're a tiny little podcast, but we loved your work, sir. I loved your work and all three things I've seen you do. It was great. We love you. Thank you for the gift of King and the gift of Dominic.

Shan 

Do you have a favorite fourth wall break? Mine was when [laughs] he looked at the camera when Ino was talking to him by the water and was like, “oh my god, he loves me.”

Ben 

Yeah, that was the one for me!

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

I love that kid so much.

Ben 

I liked the little march they did at the end. I don’t think the mom deserved to be there. And I don't know about Ino's dad deserving to be there, but grandma deserved to be there and I'm glad she was there. I liked seeing them all walk together because it's a cool visual, even if I think it's not wholly earned by some of the time that they had available. 

Let's talk about Ino's mom. Ino's mom clocks very quickly when she starts seeing him hang around King that clearly he's gay, too. And she's like, what the fuck? What are you gonna do to our family? And he pushes back on that because he was ready for that particular fight. I was really proud that for a kid who they've been grooming to speak in front of crowds and talk about stuff, he was able to hold his ground against his mom. And I was really frustrated with his dad. I did not think his dad gave him any useful perspective or advice at all. And that was a real failure.

Shan 

That man was useless.

NiNi

I actually found the dad to be really sad. I think the dad was included almost as a cautionary tale? Because the dad just seemed so beaten down by his whole life, by everything that had happened to him, by all the choices that he had made. Yes, he's trying to make it so that his son doesn't have to make the same choices that he made once he realizes what's going on. Because the other thing is that he definitely buries his head in sand a little bit about Ino because of his own background and his own history.

Ben 

I think that's the only way to read him. 

Shan 

He definitely was.

Ben

I don't think we got really great answers about Judy, King's mom either, about why she left.

Shan

That was one of the disappointments for me. I really loved the show. I didn't think it was perfect. It had a couple areas where I think it could have been stronger and one of the primary ones was on Judy. I really wanted to understand her better because we know her mother, we know that she wasn't raised to be this way. So bigoted, so afraid. And I don't really feel like we ended the show understanding better why she left King. Why she treated him the way that she did. I just, I wanted to get a little bit deeper down into what was going on with her. And I just don't think we ever got there. 

NiNi 

Well, maybe the show didn't get there, but I got it. I know so many Judys. She left the country, went to the big city, fell in love with this man. I don't know what happened with her and the husband, but whatever it is, plus the whole thing with King, she didn't know how to deal with it. She ran straight home to the arms of something simpler and more familiar. It has nothing to do with the way that she was raised. It has everything to do with that, like, colonized mentality. Her life went to shit and it was because she didn't do the things that in her mind she was supposed to. Because I guarantee that she rebelled against her own mother, not just in running away to Manila, but also I am sure her mother's such a free spirit, she's definitely straight-laced, I'm telling you. It's a story that I've seen so many times. 

I agree that it wasn't on screen, but for me it was a shortcut. Like, I saw Judy, I saw the grandmother, I was like immediately I got it.

Shan 

Yeah, I appreciate that. I definitely needed the show to actually go there, [laughs] especially because like, this is a woman who abandoned her child and I wanted to understand why. And I wanted to understand the way that she chose to interact with him even after he came to live with her. And they just never dug into it. That was a bit of a disappointment for me.

Ben 

Big fan of this show never showing us King's dad, fuck that dude.

Shan 

Yeah, we didn't need to see him. I don't care about that.

Ben 

I also want to talk about… one of my favorite things was despite having limited connectivity on the island, King did not lose touch with his bestie in Manila, who called that man out on his shit every single time he got her on the phone. [laughs] It's very important when you're gay and extra that you have somebody who tells you when you're doin’ too much.

NiNi 

You do need a get a grip friend. And she was definitely the get a grip friend. It's one of the things that JP Habac likes to do, because he did the same thing with Vlad and his friend Sue in GSP [Gaya sa Pelikula]. She was not there, but she was his get a grip friend. She's the one who called him out on, like, sad dancing to The 1975.

I love a get grip friend, my favorite type of character.

00:54:54 - Marahuyo Project: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

My last positive comment about this show—I'm lying, I probably have hundreds more—[Shan laughs] is this show wore its politics on its sleeves, but in a way that didn't feel preachy. There's a really great moment where King is pushing back on a lesson they're having about fucking Machiavelli's The Prince. Oh my! [exhale sound] I went to an all male Catholic school, I have strong thoughts about [laughs] Machiavelli. 

I love King reminding people in that whole stupid argument that no social progress has ever been made by people being very polite to the powers that be. Every form of welfare and the social safety net that we all expect and rely upon, people fought and bled for. And I liked that there was not really a response to that. Are there any social services that you rely upon and expect? People died for that. So shut the fuck up. 

Great work. A+.

NiNi

And there's some little things that I want to really pick up the show on. The whole Balagtasan tradition, the debate in verse, it was so beautiful. I really enjoyed listening to the debate on a musical level, almost. And while we're talking about music again, this is from the people who did Gaya sa Pelikula. So of course the music was gonna be bangin’.

Ben 

This soundtrack, this soundtrack fucks!

Shan

Let me actually get the name of the song because holy shit, one of my favorite songs that I have ever heard in a drama. Let me pull it up.

NiNi 

Which one are we talking about? Di Inakala or Magpatuloy?

Shan 

My favorite song in this drama, so beautiful, it's called Di Inakala by Paul Pablo. Gorgeous.

Ben

It really is.

Shan

It was used in the romance arc. 

NiNi 

It's fabulous.

Shan

What was the one you really liked, NiNi?

NiNi 

I like, there's a song called Magpatuloy by Mijon and that song, I listen to literally every day now, every single day. One of the things I always love—

Shan

Beautiful.

NiNi

—about this team, about JP Habac, and he works with music supervisor Patricia Lasaten, they always pull out Filipino artists and songs in Filipino language front and center when they're doing music for their shows and I love it. I've learned about so many great artists and gotten into so much great music because of this team.

Ben 

We're gonna have to move on ‘cause now I'm gonna start talking about the consent part of their first kiss and how great that was. The show's great! Please go watch it.

Let's finally rate this show. Let's go around the board. Shan, rating?

Shan 

I gave this show a 9. I loved it. I think it's beautiful. I think it is required viewing for anybody who cares about queer drama, good community drama, good Filipino drama. There's just so many reasons to watch it. It has a bit of rough edges around some of the storytelling decisions. I don't think it's a perfect show, but it is beautiful and I intend to rewatch it and I hope everybody listening to this will watch it if you haven't already.

Ben 

NiNi, rating?

NiNi 

I also give this a 9 because I do agree that the things around King's mom sort of hung there. I don't think they necessarily had to be resolved, but they weren't really even addressed very much. So that would be why I dinged it, but it is a fantastic show.

Ben 

My public rating for this show is a 10. I do think it's one of those shows that anybody should watch. And if you are one of the listeners who likes what I have to say about things and is curious about how I think about stuff, it's one of those shows that I beg people to watch. It's one of those shows that you show people: here’s a short list of shows to watch to understand me as a person.

I think everybody should watch it. I agree with you both. Not a perfect show. Has some rough edges, but in terms of me recommending it to people, I'm givin’ it a 10. Top of the list. Go watch this. Right now.

NiNi 

So two nines and a ten, okay, I'm not mathing today. We're gonna give it a 9.5 from The Conversation.

Shan 

Feels right.

Ben 

I think a 9.5 from us is correct. It is an incredibly good show with a couple of quibbles we have about mostly the way they handled some of the adult storylines. But I think the youth storylines are crystal clear and really well-executed. And we get to see a side of queerness that we very rarely see. It’s a beautiful show. Please watch it.

00:59:48 - Ossan no Pants

NiNi 

Let's move on now to the next show that we're going to talk about, and it is called—let me see if I can get this correct…Ossan no Pantsu ga Nandatte Ii Janai ka!…I totally butchered that. English title is Don't Care for an Old Man's Underwear!

I just started watching this today so I'm very excited to discuss what of it I have seen and I am just prepared for the spoilers that are going to come. So Ben, what is Oppan about?

Ben

About how if we give Japan 50 minutes to tell a story, they're gonna use that time well! [laughs]

Shan

So well!

Ben

Oppan is about this man named Okita Makoto, who is a kind of upper-middle manager of a printer sales company. He is very much a salaryman type who is upholding a lot of casual misogyny because this is what he is taught to do, and he believes he's filling in the role that's expected of him. He goes to work every day. He works really hard. He sacrifices everything of importance that matters to him to be present for the work. and he leaves the household matters to his wife. And it's not going that great! 

He finds himself feeling distant from his wife, distant from his daughter who doesn't seem to like him; and their family is dealing with the crisis because for whatever reason, his son—who he's never been able to feel close to—refuses to go to school and doesn't leave his room. 

One day while walking to work, he almost falls down the stairs, because he lives in a walkable community, and is saved by a young gay man who catches him. The two of them have a little bit of bonding that comes from this. A friendship begins to grow between them. And over the course of this friendship, Makoto decides that he needs to change with the times and update himself, because he recognizes that he wants to better connect to people and what he's currently doing is not working. 

And the rest of the show is about Makoto learning how to be a good friend to this young gay man who's near to graduating from veterinary school, his wife, his two children who are an adult and approaching adulthood, and his coworkers. 

This is one of the kindest shows I've ever watched. When I tell you that a show about a misogynist was one of the most empathetic things I've watched this year, I am not being funny or being ironic. This show understands how everybody responds to societal misogyny, how it shapes them, hurts them, but doesn't have to be the end of their story. This was an absolutely delightful experience. I loved every single moment I spent with this show. Holy shit. 

NiNi, before we get into Shan's impressions, because I have much I want to ask Shan about, you are three episodes in. Just give us some of your initial impressions and thoughts on how you're feeling about the characters, and some of the stories you've encountered so far.

NiNi

The only reason that this show works is because Okita loves his family. He really truly loves his family, and he doesn't want to lose them, and he knows that they're slipping away from him. And there are so many ways that that kind of story turns negative. In this instance, the show uses that love and that fear of losing his family, and turns it in a positive direction. He turns it in on himself and says to himself, “What can I do to not let this happen? How can I bring them back to me? What have I been doing wrong and what can I now start to try to do right?” And that's really what stuck with me. 

We don't talk about this a lot in the world. I know this is a weird segue. Life is extremely hard on middle-aged men in the modern age, because they were told a certain way to be that has just, to their minds, vanished. They were told they were the main character and that everybody was around them to make sure that they succeeded. And that's gone, and they don't know how to deal with that. Watching a middle-aged man deal with that in a healthy way, in a way that looks at himself and says ‘I have to do better,’ I find incredibly satisfying. That spirit of, ‘I need to look at my life, look at my choices’ basically and ‘I need to fix the relationships in my life because I have broken them.’

01:05:18 - Ossan no Pants: Our Characters

Shan

I think we need to start with a little character cheat sheet.

Ben

Let's first name the Okita family members.

Shan

Makoto is our patriarch, as NiNi just so eloquently said, is the heart of this show, his journey. We have in his family, his wife Mika, his daughter Moe, and his son Kakeru. That’s our core family that we will keep coming back to. 

Our other main character is Igarashi Daichi, and he is the young gay man who lives in the neighborhood who meets Makoto and kind of starts the journey that he's on. Daichi also has parents who are relevant to the story. Mihoko is his mother and his dad, we will just be referring to as ‘That Asshole.’ 

Ben

—Fuck that dude! Ho ho!

Shan

Fuck that dude. We don't need to give him a name. 

Daichi also has a boyfriend who, in what I considered a bit of a revelation for this show, actually matters and has a story. Madoka is his name. He's very important. We'll talk about him. 

We also have a broad constellation of side characters in this show. I will not name them all because there are far too many, but a few that I think are really important to know because they have important plot lines or are part of important plot lines for our family are Hasegawa, who is a schoolmate of Kakeru's who is on the baseball team; and Shizuka, who is a schoolmate of Kakeru's who bonds with him over a shared interest. And then we have Furuike, who is Makoto's senior at work. Those folks all have pretty important actual arcs in the show. 

There are also other side characters who are Makoto's coworkers, Kakeru's schoolmates, and Moe's friends, but they're not as present in the narrative.

Good luck to our translator for having to do all those names. [Ben laughs] That's me, why am I, I'm giving myself luck!

It's a big cast. This is an ensemble show. It's a family drama. It is rooted within a family as the central unit of the story, and then we follow each of these family members on their own individual storylines that intersect with some of the other characters that we talked about.

Like, in terms of my overall feeling about this show, I just fucking love it. It is one of the best family dramas I've ever seen. It is one of the most thoughtful and smart shows that I have seen in the way that it takes the themes that it wants to explore and it really digs deep into them in a way that still feels really natural. Like, this show is absolutely intended to be educational television for a broad audience. And it also is just a really good drama that does not feel, usually, like an afterschool special. It feels like a very organic and natural story of a family and the people around them, rather than a show that's just sitting you down and preaching at you all the time, despite the fact that it is literally preaching at you a lot through the story and through its themes. 

You know, I think NiNi's summary of, kind of, the core plot of the story and the purpose of the story was spot on. This is really rooted in Makoto's journey to do better, to recognize that he has damaged his own relationships with his inability to change and evolve with the times, that he is the one who needs to do some thinking and some learning. And I think what's so beautiful about this show is that he is able to do that through the kindness and the compassion of a stranger who sees potential in him, who sees an opportunity to engage him and to help him learn, rather than just dismissing him. 

You really need both sides of that equation to make this work. You need somebody who is willing to admit that they're wrong and be open to learning. And you need someone who is willing to have patience for them and to see the good intentions behind some of their mistakes. And that's what you really get in Makoto and Daichi. They are the unconventional friendship that really powers this show, that gives Makoto the energy he needs and the knowledge he needs to do better by his family. And then in turn gives Daichi the support he needs when his life starts getting a little bit messier. 

One of my favorite things about this show is that when it starts, you kinda get a little niggling in the back of your head, you're a little worried. You're like, is Daichi a manic pixie dream gay? Is he just here to be this fairy who blesses Makoto and helps him be better and is used as this font of wisdom? Or is he going to be a full human and a real person? And it's definitely the latter. 

As the story goes on, we get his life filled in too. We learn about his struggles. We learn about his relationship. We learn about his family. We see him make mistakes, and we see him need to draw on strength from Makoto. This friendship becomes very mutual, and they change each other's lives. This is an all-time great drama. I love it. Everyone needs to watch it.

Ben

NiNi, I want to check in with you about Daichi at episode three, because you just got through the sequence where they went to the public bath together, and Makoto was trying to show Daichi some appreciation. And it was well intentioned, but kind of annoying. And Daichi got legitimately irritated in that moment and very politely told Makoto to step back.

I want to know how you feel about Daichi coming out of the sequences that happened in the public bath,

NiNi

I think the timing and pacing of that is actually perfect because I was just getting to the point in the story, having watched two and a half episodes of Daichi having what seemed like unending patience for Makoto and his foibles and his crass, sometimes crude expressions and the way that he is often unthinking before he says something. I was just getting to the point of being, does this kid not have any feelings or does he just exist to be Makoto's conscience and sounding board? 

And then that moment in the tub happened and I was like, okay, so he does get pissed off. And he does get annoyed and he does get exhausted and he does get tired of having to deal with this shit.

Ben

Daichi joins a very short list of characters who are now my all-time favorites. He and Shiro are gonna live in my psyche for the rest of my life.

Daichi is so fascinating because he's a well-read, self-actualized queer character who has the full support of his mother, who has clearly dealt with a lot of homophobia. And we learned that he suffered in high school when he was outed. But he has chosen to proceed through the world with kindness and not assume the worst from people, because it burns you out. We get to experience Daichi's complicated romance with his closeted boyfriend. 

And then the relationship he forms with Kakeru. Daichi is helping Kakeru because Kakeru might be going through some sort of queer awakening. He wants to have control over his gender presentation and he likes to be cute. He wants to be pretty. He wants to use feminine styling and cutesy girly things, because they make him happy. But he is not certain yet where he sits on the spectrum of sexuality. The big thing he hates the most is people projecting and presuming about him.

Shan

They really made a contrast here because Moe, Kakeru’s sister. She is so schlubby. She's like hair tossed up in a headband, unshowered, wearing, like, shapeless sweats. Just like looking like, you know, she didn't even bother with anything in the morning besides rolling out of bed. But then when she has to go out in the world and she does her hair and puts on makeup, she looks like a different person. The first time they showed Moe outside of the house all done up, I was literally like, who is that? Who the fuck is this girl? Why are we following her? It really took me a second to click in and realize that was Moe.

What I liked about the contrast there is that Kakeru, for him being pretty, coming on with these feminine styles, doing his makeup every day, that is what actually makes him happy. So he looks that way even when he's sitting in his own home. For Moe, that's not part of her self identity so much as part of the armor that she puts on in the world. They didn't comment on it at all in the show, but the visual contrast was there the whole time between these two siblings.

Ben

I love so much that Daichi was able to help Kakeru get himself out of that room by never telling him what to do, by always focusing on asking Kakeru questions to help Kakeru find the answer in himself. He often did the same with Makoto as well. He very gently corrected presumptions. 

Like, he—Makoto asked a reasonable question. “My son likes to dress up like a girl. Is he trans, and what do I do about that?” And Daichi is like, “Well, he hasn't said he's trans, so let's not presume there, but let's think about trans people for a moment.” And I really love the way that that was handled because Kakeru tells us plainly that he does like being a boy, but he wants to be pretty.

There's the bit where Kakeru is leaving and he thanks his dad for what he did, and his dad, desperate to try and say something that helps his son is like, “You survived being my son for 17 years, you can handle anything.” And I was like, Oh, buddy. [laughs] 

Man, I'm getting lost in all the characters I want to talk about. Let's go back one step and let's focus on Daichi. Daichi helps Kakeru by being gentle with him and letting him figure things out for himself, and then giving him encouragement and friendship when he needs it. And when we finally get to see Daichi's relationship with Madoka, it's complicated. He has an incredible meet-cute with the biggest man we've ever seen in a Japanese drama.

NiNi

I have seen that man! He is large!

Shan

That man is large. He's large.

NiNi, immediately: “Why did no one tell me there was a large man in this drama?”

NiNi

Ben and Shan can attest, literally I paused and I typed in the chat, “So who is this big one?” I was like, why is there a large man and nobody told me there was a large man here?

Ben

Shan is like, I feel like we failed on our strategy with needing to get her to watch this. We should have told her it was a big man. I'm just like, see, but then she would have felt like we were baiting her and she would have taken even longer to start. It's better that you discovered the large man— 

Shan

—We decided to let you discover on your own.

Ben

—You needed to discover the large man on your own as a, as a pleasant surprise.

NiNi

Listen, it was very pleasant and very surprising, because all of a sudden he was just there and he was large and I was like—

Shan

There he is. Can't miss him. He's so big.

NiNi

—these bitches, these, these bitches didn't tell me that there was a large man here—

Ben

Nope!

NiNi

—I'm disappointed in you all. I will say that much. [laughs]

Ben

Nope. We got exactly what we wanted. Because you kept watching. You like, “There's a large man. Is he going to show up again?” And then you kept watching. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi

You…

Shan

Let's tell the people more about Madoka, Ben.

Ben

So Madoka is from a smaller community, and his family is anticipating his return home after completing his veterinary studies. He's going to take a position at a large clinic that's basically been prepared for him. He's expected to marry. And this is a huge amount of pressure on him. He doesn't want to disappoint his family and let them down because he's not shared this truth with them because he's afraid of that disappointment. 

I think for a lot of us, that was my big thing that kept me in the closet. Because my family wasn't more homophobic than like a standard Southern cosmopolitan family. But they have these ideas about who you're going to grow up to be in the life that you might be sharing with them as you get older. And when you tell them this about yourself, you are shattering whatever image of your life that they had growing up, particularly when you were able to hide what you were. 

Certain people cannot hide who they were. Daichi is one of those characters who could not hide who he was, and his peers made him suffer for it. And his father. Fuck that man. Fuck that man!

Shan

Seriously, fuck that man. We have nothing nice to say about him. Nothing!

Ben

But Daichi is being patient with Madoka, too, because he's not gonna demand like, “You have to come out so that we can be together.” He's patient with him and lets him sort through that. And the show lets that be as difficult as it needs to be. When these two eventually decide to marry, they have a stellar sequence that I will never get out of my brain. I don't wanna describe it further because you’re gonna watch this scene, NiNi, but know that the proposal sent all of the clowns into the stratosphere.

Shan

All of the clowns and all of the characters within the show as well. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

The people inside the show reacting to it happening were perfect mirrors of all of us at home reacting to it happening. It was so good. And that's a surprising thing in and of itself, that in this family drama that was meant to be more mainstream, we actually saw two gay men decide to marry each other. Same-sex marriage is still not legal in Japan. That doesn't mean that people don't want to commit to each other in a meaningful way, and I think it was really powerful to see these characters make that choice. As the show goes on, we learn more about Daichi's family and his horrible fucking father— 

Ben

—Horrible man!

Shan

—and a fucking horrible homophobe who has made Daichi feel so isolated and small in so many ways. And we see this dynamic flip between him and Madoka, where he's been the one who's been patient and been strong while Madoka had to work out talking to his family. And then his horrible father comes back into the picture, and suddenly Daichi is the one who's having a crisis of confidence. And he doesn't know if he can commit to this life that he knows he wants because of the way that it disappoints his father, who he still has this attachment to. 

To see them get the chance to support each other through those journeys and to come out the other side of it was just such a really meaningful part of this story. And the way that it tied back to the Okita family because they have come to love Daichi. They have their own relationships with him. He's so important to them in a number of different ways. And so they get very invested in his life. We talked earlier about how in these dramas, the side characters don't exist just to power a romance, right? These are not fujoshis. That's not what's going on here— 

Ben

—Well, there is a fujoshi in the story. Like—

Shan

Although Moe does write—

Ben

—gay boys— [laughs]

Shan

Yeah, she's a mangaka. She does actually write yaoi manga, but she's not like that about Daichi and Madoka. They are real people to her. She's not looking at them as a fan girl. She's here for fictional romance only. 

So, the Okita family really cares about this couple and wants to see them happy and is so deeply emotionally invested in them that it becomes part of their family story, too. It's just a really beautiful way that Daichi's family became very connected to the Okita family, and that all of them became a bit of a surrogate family for Madoka—whose own family by the end of the story does know more about him and have accepted him—but are kind of far away. So he gets this familial support system through these other two families coming together and surrounding him and Daichi with love.

NiNi

Shan you said something there about being surprised about how they got to a wedding. I'm actually not surprised because one of the things that Ben and I have been discussing about Japanese drama when we've been discussing it lately is how there seems to be a category of Japanese drama in like the last five to ten years I’d say which is what I've been personally calling normalization drama.

Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend. She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. Koisenu Futari. Like, there's a list of these shows, and this list is building up, of shows that are looking at, they would probably use the term 'alternative lifestyles'. But what it's about is normalizing these things because so much of what I understand about Japanese culture is about not standing out. It's about conforming. And the reason, and Ben and I have talked about this, that a lot of homophobia and stuff that comes out in Japanese dramas is more about how people are rocking the boat than necessarily about the queerness in particular sometimes. 

One of the things that I have been looking at in these normalization dramas and in terms of what Japan tends to put in front of its audiences is about saying, “Look at these people, they're just like you. Isn't it lovely? Isn't it normal? These people are like us.” So I'm not surprised that this is something that came out of Japan.

Shan

I think that's a really accurate description of what this show is trying to do and why it does fit into that pattern. As we were watching live, it wasn't clear to us as we were going how much any of these side characters or storylines was going to get real attention. And so I think, honestly, I think we were all surprised that he was a real character, that Madoka got his own storyline, that he wasn't just there to be part of Daichi's backstory. That he wasn't just there to be a complication for Daichi, but that he became a character in his own right and got a whole story. 

Like, this show really became a true ensemble piece. Makoto's at the center of it always, but this show really cared about every single character. Even the side characters. Like, the characters that you would normally expect to only kind of be in the backgrounds of scenes. Some of them really got to come to the fore for, like, limited periods of time and really shine. 

One of my favorite side characters was Hasegawa, who is a classmate of Kakeru's, who was on the baseball team with Kakeru. One of my favorite little side stories in this show is that Hasegawa, he actually is really curious about Kakeru and he cares about why he has disappeared from school, and he wants to understand him. And he really makes an effort to reach out to him. He goes to Kakeru to ask for help with skin care because he has acne, and Kakeru gives him an amazing routine, buys him a whole slew of products and gives him—

Ben

—And it starts working like right away. That man's skin cleared up in like a week!

Shan

That boy looks amazing! His skin was cleared up within a week! He went to him for skincare help because he knew that that was a way to approach Kakeru that would be acceptable to him, and then use that as an in to try to rekindle their friendship. And eventually when Kakeru was ready, and felt like he could trust him again, they did start having more mutual exchanges and rebuilt their friendship. 

I mean, listen, I can't lie. We all know I was shipping it. I know this is not real—

Ben

I did not feel bad for Makoto when he was like, “Kakeru seems to be having some very nice interactions with a boy. I mean— 

Shan

He fully, he was like, does he like that boy?

Ben

—if that's where it's gonna go, we gotta make sure he knows. It's okay, son.”

Shan

Yeah, and we kind of knew it wasn't going to go there because that's not the point of the show. This is not a romance drama, and they already had a romance storyline that they were dealing with with Daichi and Madoka. But I was kind of shipping it, because this boy was such a nice boy. I really liked the way that this show made room for that. That one of the things that I think stands out the most about this show is how much empathy it has for all of its characters. Even the shitty dad. 

This show has some empathy for him. We don't like him, but the show has space to understand his perspective. All of these side characters, the show really cares about giving space to who they are and revealing through context that they also have the chance if they're willing to take it to learn more and open their mind and be kind to others.

01:26:30 - Ossan no Pants: Key Character Arcs

Ben

I'm gonna blow through a lot of these characters to power through some of the arcs they went on. 

NiNi, you watched episode two where Moe was determined to go to Comica to sell her manga to her readers. But the family was like, you're too sick. You cannot go to a public venue. And Makoto decides to step up and go sell the books for her and brings Daichi along to help. That was a really interesting episode for us to see Makoto step into Moe's passion and Moe's world and see what she values. And it's the beginning of the rebuilding of their relationship.

NiNi

The show isn't just about Makoto's relationship with Kakeru, it's about his relationship with his entire family. Because you see how disconnected he is from his family. Like, even the dog— ignores him. 

Ben

—Carlos!

NiNi

Like, there's a whole side plot about the dog ignoring him. Okay? I have a lot of thoughts about men of a certain age. We are feminists on this show, and as feminists we actually do love men and want better for them. One of the things about this show is watching a man also want better for himself. Beautiful.

Anyway, he's become so disconnected from his family because he doesn't have any kind of interiority, he has no inner life, he has no conception of self beyond what society has given him. He has no hobbies, he has no things that are interesting for him. On a day when he's at home and all the rest of his family is out or doing something that means something to them, he's sitting at home because he doesn't have anything to do. And then he eventually ends up going out and getting drunk in the park because what else does he have to do, because he has no other interest because he's never been allowed to have this internal life. 

And part of the show is about him actually doing that, and part of that story is him understanding his daughter's internal life because he's been so dismissive of what she does. She's a mangaka, she works on what we in fandom call the transformative works space.

Ben

[laughs] She's a doujin artist writing fic about her favorite characters.

Shan

I love her so much.

NiNi

She's fantastic. This is not something—yes, she makes money on it occasionally—but she does this for the love. This is a hobby for her. And he doesn't understand being so involved in something that you are not a professional at, you are an amateur in that sense of the word, but it's important to you. And what you do is important to people. It made me feel a lot of feelings about this podcast. I gotta be real with you. But anyway—

Ben

Aw, bestie!

[Shan laughs]

NiNi

It did, it really did. So him sort of stepping into her world and understanding that about her—to my mind the way that I saw it, it made him also feel a little bit sad that he doesn't have anything like that. I saw a little bit of sadness that even as he feels the joy of stepping into her world, and starting to understand his daughter a little more, and having them getting that little bit closer off of this interaction, and opening a little bit of a door for their relationship to start being repaired, I could see it raised a little bit of sadness in him as well. And I'm curious to follow that thread and see where it goes. 

One thing that I've been really interested in, I realized that Mika, the mom, actually does have a job outside of the home. When she first called from work, in my head I'm like, did we know she had a job? And the fact that when he gets home, she's always got food prepared on the table for him. He never asks about it. He never says thank you about it. It's expected that it's gonna be there. 

Ben

Good—

NiNi

He comes in at the end of the day. He never asks her about her day. He doesn't seem to have any interest. And I am waiting for him to realize. I am ready and excited to see how he starts repairing his relationships with each of these people in his family. Like he even has to repair his relationship with the dog at this point. That's how bad it's gotten.

Shan

[laughs] I'm so excited for you watching this show, NiNi. I do want to give Mika her due because she is the overlooked member of this family, she is doing so much of the invisible and emotional labor for the family. And the show does give her her due and you'll get to see all of that. It kind of builds on what you were saying about Moe and how she feels about the fandom stuff that she does. 

Like, this show really understands fandom and what it means to people. Mika, she is a mother. She does have a job that you'll learn more about. And she's also a fan. She is a fan of a K-pop group called RANDOM. That actually ends up being a really important part of who she is and a part of her story with Makoto and his journey to understand her. They really take that seriously and they really help you understand and they motivate her obsession with this K-pop group and really root you in following them as a fan has done for her in her life, and allow Makoto to understand that too. 

And when he gets there, when he finally fully clicks into what he owes to this group of K-pop idols who have given his wife something to feel joyful about is one of my favorite moments in the show.

Ben

So, Mika tells us about how she's given up a lot in her life to be the mom figure of this family. She was spiraling in a depressive state when Moe was having problems, Kakeru wouldn't leave his room, and Makoto didn't even want to talk to her about any of these big family problems. And she felt like if it had been someone else, they would have solved it already, that she had failed as a mom.

In this moment of despair, she saw an interview with the leader of RANDOM, and was really touched by the way he talked about dealing with the challenges in his life. That gave her a light out, and caring about RANDOM and the goings on with that band gave her a little light that she was able to hold on to, to hold fast, as her family dealt with these big problems that she was trying to just tackle for them.

Once she reveals all of this—as they're on the way to a concert together, by the way! 

Shan

Hell yeah!

Ben

Makoto says, “Ah, then RANDOM is the Okita family's benefactor.” I just love that man so much because that is the right response.

Shan

What a good attitude, sir! You’re doing amazing!

NiNi

What you just said just leads me to think about the scene that gives the show its name about the old man's underwear thing. Makoto has ways, of expressing yes, but also of conceiving the world through a lens that he can comprehend. The things that are incomprehensible to him. Finding a way to reframe it to himself that's comprehensible. Sometimes that's serendipitous, like the thing with the underwear. And sometimes that's considered, but him saying something like “RANDOM is the Okita family's benefactor,” that's him reframing this thing into a thing that makes sense to him that he can then use that as a way of understanding the idea that he's grappling with or that he's struggling with and I really like that.

Shan

Absolutely.

Ben

You're gonna love that moment you get there, NiNi, because you just came through the Comica stuff where Makoto, like you mentioned, has his own way of contextualizing how he appreciates what people are doing. He went through the whole Comica experience, and he appreciated how passionate everybody was, and how diligent and organized they were— 

NiNi

—And how efficient they were.

Shan

—Yes.

Ben

Yeah, that was his big thing he took away.

Shan

He saw them through a workplace lens ‘cause that's what he knows, you know?

Ben

And there's this great moment when they come out of the RANDOM concert. He lets Mika go and hang out with her other friends, because Mika ends up hanging out with Daichi's mom and another older female fan who are having fun talking about their favorite boy group. He ends up reading about RANDOM. 

When he's still hanging around, Mika wasn't expecting him to wait around for her. They're walking home together. They're talking about the band. He's like, he's read some articles. He's read about them. He's talking about the band—

Shan

—He selected a bias!

Ben

He picked a bias! He's like, “I completely understand why you like Seojun. I found that article you mentioned where he told that story. It's a beautiful, touching story. But we were watching them on the stage. Did you notice that the other member noticed when the other guy tripped and he helped cover for him?

[Shan laughs]

“I really appreciate the teamwork and determination he showed in that moment. He really touched me in that moment.” And he had his own bias coming out of the concert! [laughs]

Shan 

And then they’re out there practicing the dance moves! I can't wait for you to get to that episode.

Ben

It's so great because… Like, Daichi says it early and it kind of throws Makoto off. He's like, “I don't have any hobbies.” He's like, “Your family is your hobby. Everything you do is for the benefit of your family. That's what you're most passionate about.” 

And so we get through this whole thing where we learned that Moe is passionate about manga, it’s what she loves it’s what gets her up every day. Mika is passionate about RANDOM. It's what helps motivate her day in and day out. She gets this really great moment where she gets mad at her family for not appreciating the food she's doing, because she wanted to share a recipe that had won a contest with them. Nobody checked the fucking group chat. And everybody was up in their asses about their own shit that night. Nobody congratulated her, said anything nice about her food. And she went the fuck off on them and they all deserve that ass whooping.

We go on this long journey with these characters of understanding who they are and rebuilding their relationships with each other in a way that is so beautiful. This is great.

01:36:49 - Ossan no Pants: Furuike and That Fucking Guy

Ben

There's even in the show where an older version of Makoto shows up, like one of Makoto's seniors who has been displaced from one team because of being rude and sexually harassing women there. I don't think he was touching them inappropriately per se, but just his general demeanor was deeply offensive. 

And so he gets reassigned to their team. Makoto is able to reach through to him in a really great moment where they go and solve a major work problem together the way guys like them used to solve problems. And it's a way in for him to talk about how “That's not how the young people operate now. And your information and the way you operate is good and we should teach them. But also we got to open up to them too." What's so great is, like, Makoto is kind of an idiot. He's not mean-spirited, but he's doing irritating and annoying and harmful things to the people he cares about. 

Daichi's dad is the worst kind of bigot because he is well-read. He has heard all of the arguments. He does understand that his son is suffering, and is willfully choosing to exacerbate that dynamic because he thinks he knows what's best for his son. But it's not really for the benefit of his son. It's about power and control.

One of the things that often frustrates us when we talk about these shows, particularly Shan. Hello, Shan—is these shows often like to rush reconciliations and apologies so that we end with a moment where the whole family’s come back together through the power of love and teamwork or whatever. And Daichi's dad does not get to have that moment. He is excluded from the final triumphant moment of the series because he is too bigoted to let go of his own ego.

Shan

It was a thing of beauty to see a parent who did not deserve to be forgiven unforgiven and excused from the table.

[Ben laughs]

It is everything that I have ever wanted from a drama. I was so fucking happy, because most of the time in these shows, they just insist on pushing toward this unearned redemption that is so unsatisfying. And this show just said no, because you know what? This show has a really clear thesis. And it came through, I think, in a final speech from of all people, Furuike: You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to know everything, but you do have to care about hurting people. And you do have to try to do better. And you do have to be willing to learn and update yourself. 

And what he says in this final speech in the workplace is, “I'm older than all of you. And I have learned that going through life and all of its good and bad can really desensitize you to the things happening around you, to the experiences of others. And if you let yourself become desensitized, you will hurt other people. And if you can just try really hard to not get used to yourself, and to keep learning and to keep trying, you will do better and you will enjoy life more.” And that is really this show's thesis. 

And Daichi's father doesn't do that. He's not open to learning. He doesn't care ultimately that he's harming other people, because he thinks he's right and that's all that matters to him. And so he doesn't get forgiven. And he doesn't get to sit at the fucking family table at the end of the show and play happy families with everybody. He's not invited to the wedding. If he wants back in, he's going to have to try, and he's going to have to care. And he is going to have to put in the effort to update his thinking and make amends with his son and with the people his son loves. Until he does that, he is not welcome and he is not part of the family. 

And I just loved that the show was so firm on this. There is room for redemption for everyone, everyone deserves the chance to do better. But if you don't put in that work, you don't get to sit with us. Period.

Ben

PERIOD!

Shan

PERIOD!

Ben

[laughs] Let me tell you, NiNi, you will lose your mind when you get to this scene. I am still thinking about it. I was screaming to Twig for three hours about this scene because the Okita family is in this very fancy restaurant wearing their jackets and stuff and they start removing their jackets like fucking Care Bears revealing their stomachs and blasting this man with the hearts of everything that they love.

Shan

It was like the family Care Bear stare. Like they all pulled back their shirts and the beams came out of their chest. [laughs]

NiNi

I'm so mad at y 'all for a Care Bear stare. I haven't thought about the Care Bears in at least, at least two decades—

Ben

—30 years? [laughs]

NiNi

I can't stand y 'all ass. I can't stand y 'all ass!

Ben

Kakeru is like, “Yes, I'm wearing women's clothes.” And then Moe was like, “And I love to draw fujo art, fuck you.” And Mika's like—

Shan

—She like pulls back, she's got a t-shirt with like two people kissing on—

Ben

—she's like, “I'm old and I get to like idols too.” And then he looks over at Makoto's like, “At least you're the only normal one.” He's like, “No, I'm not. I’m the most fucking crazy person here. I love my family. I love all of these people. And I was asked to be here as the matchmaker for Daichi. And I'm going to tell you to your face that you are a bigot and an asshole.” 

He asked that man the most important question: “You are correct that the world is harsh, and that it's not going to be nice to our kids. But it doesn't matter if they're queer. They're going to be made to feel awful and bad and weird and wrong for any number of reasons, whether it be Moe loving to draw fujo art, Kakeru wanting to wear the clothes that make him feel better, or Harunishi wanting to wear his b-suke-kun to work every day.” [laughs] 

For any number of reasons these kids are going to be made to feel wrong and unhappy. And that's one of the things the show makes clear. None of the older men in this show are happy at all. Not Makoto, not Daichi's divorced dad, not Furuike when he gets assigned to their team originally, and not multiple colleagues of theirs who get downsized over the course of the show. No one is happy. 

Everyone is being asked to present and conform for the sake of others in the society and everyone is miserable as a result. And the Okita family says, “No, we're going to prioritize our happiness in this family. I'm doing these things as a parent because I love my family and I want them to be happy. I don't want them to suffer for other people and be miserable like you.” And he asked that man directly, “If the whole world is lining up to be cruel to your son, why are you trying to cut to the front of the line to get the first lick in?”

And that man had no answer for that.

Shan

Man, that was so infuriating. This was what was so challenging about fighting him, why Makoto struggled a little bit, and why Daichi really struggled, was that he wasn't an in your face, loud, screaming bigot. He would espouse his bigoted ideas in the most calm, rational matter of fact way. And it would make the other characters second guess themselves. He wasn't talking as if he was being hateful. He was talking as if he was just being the rational one in the room and the rest of them needed to come back to reality. 

That can be very disarming, trying to deal with somebody when they're presenting what they're saying to you as if they're just talking common sense and you're the one who's offbase. I liked that representation of a kind of bigotry that can feel a lot more insidious than the more in your face stuff that we often see depicted in media.

Ben 

I was really happy with it because they showed through Makoto and Furuike that they aren't trying to be mean-spirited when they interact with people these ways. They're just deeply out of touch and deeply misinformed and they were taught poorly. The worst thing about Daichi's asshole of a father is he's the people who teaches people to be like that.

01:45:25 Ossan no Pants: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

What really works with this too is, like, Kakeru can be a real bitch over the course of the show when he gets pissed off with people expecting things from him. But I really like that for all that he doesn't share interests with his father that much, in so many ways he is a lot like his dad and how he handles interactions with people. That was a really well done arc— 

Shan

And him continually recognizing that.

Ben

—that he and he starts to recognize too. Yeah.

Ben

The final scenes of the show are so earned. Makoto is like, “If the world is going to fight my kids, they're going to have to go through me!” 

Shan

Hell yeah!

Ben

—And he's flexing in the mirror. And then the kids are coming through the door of the bathroom, because it's the day of Daichi's wedding. And Moe dunks on him right away. She's like, “You're not going to get buff in three days, Dad. Move. We have things to do today.”

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Kakeru’s like, “Move.” He's like, “Don't look at me like this.” They're like, “Get out of here, Dad.” And he's like, “Oka-san, your children are bullying me!” [laughs]

Shan

It was so nice to see this family that in the beginning was so strained with each other, they would have never joked with him that way when the show started because they had no trust in him and they were tense around him all the time. And to see them come all the way to the other side of getting back to a normal dynamic where they can just make fun of their dad for being a dork. That's such a beautiful way to show that he has rebuilt that trust with his kids. They feel comfortable now to make fun of him when he's standing in front of the mirror in his dorky underwear making macho poses.

Ben

[laughs] We finally get to their wedding and Makoto is given this parental position as Daichi's stand-in father. And of course Makoto is a crying, slobbery mess at this wedding.

Shan

The way that he weeps over this relationship makes me laugh every single time. [laughs] He's just so happy for them. He's so invested.

Ben

The long and short of it is, this is a show that is super empathetic about the way internalized misogyny has done so much damage to all of us. And it wants to gently lead us down the path to learning to reconnect with the things we love and the people we love without feeling the need to enforce arbitrary norms that have only made everyone miserable.

And it earns that repeatedly in every single moment for 11 fantastic episodes.

Shan

Man, what a show.

NiNi

I look forward to watching the next eight.

Shan

I'm so excited for you to finish it, NiNi. You're gonna love it.

Ben

Alright, hot ratings. NiNi, can't rate it yet. Shan, rating.

Shan

I gave the show a 9.5. I love it deeply. I think it is excellent. I think everyone should watch it. My ratings are about execution and I think there were a couple—not really wobbles in the show—but a couple little bits that could have been smoother. There were a couple scenes that didn't quite carry off the PSAs in a way that sounded like natural dialogue.

Ben 

You're going to have to let go of that moment at the end of episode five.

Shan

I can't do it. It's sticking. [Ben and Shan laugh] There's one scene in particular that felt deeply inauthentic in the way a character— 

Ben

—You're so mean!

Shan

—I'm sorry, but it's true. In the way the character reacted to something, instead of reacting in a way that felt authentic for his character, he gave a very after-school special speech, which felt so wrong from a character perspective. It just sticks in my brain. 

And so it's not technically perfect, but it is spiritually perfect. It is emotionally perfect. I love this show so much and I want everyone to watch it. I am in the process of bullying my own family into getting a Plex media server so I can force them to watch it. I just, I think everybody should see this show.

Ben

I'm giving this show an 11.

Shan

Nice. He's just gonna make sure the average pulls it back up to 10. [laughs] Which I am fine with!

NiNi

You see, whenever, whenever Ben does this and he calls producer privilege, I just sit here and I go mm okay. Because he's always on me about it.

Shan

Okay, I see how it is.

NiNi

Okay, have your 11, sir. Have your 11.

Ben

This is one of my favorite shows of all time. We've made a lot of memes on this podcast about my repeated mentioning of What Did You Eat Yesterday? or random diatribes about how New Siwaj could make good work if he wanted to make good work. 

Shan

Oh boy.

Ben

But this is, this was probably one of the most enjoyable experiences I've had with TV itself in a really long time. This was the kind of really homey and welcoming drama that I have really needed to believe in TV as a medium again.

I loved watching the show and I loved talking about this show with our friends the whole way through. This is the kind of drama that I feel determined to show to people

So, it gets a 10 from me, from The Conversation.

I am desperately begging you to go watch it. And then tell us how you feel about it.

01:51:18 - Importance of Variety in Media Consumption

NiNi 

So what are the connection points between these two shows, other than the frame, obviously, which is that these are queer narratives that go outside of and beyond romance? 

Ben

I don't want to be harsh to our listeners who enjoy BL when I say this. Watching both of these shows is a real relief for me, because sometimes BL feels so detached from reality that it can feel kind of alien. I need to get a couple of queer dramas in me a year that are about the queer experience in a grounded way, or else I go insane.

I am really relieved that both of these shows came to us when they came to us. Because I need experiences like this to make BL worth it for me. These are the kinds of projects I only encounter because I'm in the BL space.

Shan 

I think what connects these shows for me is that they both really care about all of the characters involved in the story. They try to tell really full stories about a community or a family that does not just narrow down to one point that's about one person or one relationship. They really try to take a holistic look at the full world around our characters, and how all of them form relationships with each other and how the world around them informs those relationships and puts stressors on them. It's just, like, a really complete immersion in both of these shows into a place and a way of living and a way of being that can sometimes feel missing in some of the other things that we watch and discuss on here. 

It's really refreshing to watch stuff like this sometimes. I think any healthy media diet requires some variety, requires stepping out of the same formula that you are used to in the media that you consume. What really matters to me about these shows in the context of this podcast where we discuss queer works, is that it really takes queer reality very seriously. And it roots its story, both of these shows, in a very close-to-realistic version of what it would mean to hold these identities in the world that we actually live in. When we are often watching shows that are in a bubble that don't deal with those realities, it's important to dip into that every once in a while. 

And, this is not a homework assignment, either of these shows. They're beautiful dramas. They are joyful. They are fun to watch. They are touching. Just because they have heavy themes and because you learn a lot doesn't mean that they're not also incredibly entertaining shows.

NiNi

For me, what I get out of being in this particular space and shows like these. I was calculating today. I am actually in a relationship maybe about once a decade, but I am living in the world all the rest of the time. While romance for me is…not exactly an escape—there are escapist elements to romance for me. I find a lot of fascination in different aspects of romance. I live in the world all of the time. And so getting into shows that are in the world, that are focused on things that I have much more of a day-to-day connection to than romance. Occasionally it's just fun to sit there. It's good and enjoyable and it feels good inside to sit in. You feel a little bit of coming home about it. And that's where I'm sitting with these two shows so far. Every so often I do need to watch something that isn't a romance, and I like when it's good.

These two are really good. 

Ben 

I gotta say that, too. Like, no disrespect to a lot of the work that we talk about on this podcast. We watch a lot of shows that are flawed in one way or another. And it's not for a lack of effort from the people making them. But every now and then, it's really helpful to watch a really, really good show or a really fucking good movie, and be like, damn, that was something else. It can be really inspiring and it can help keep you grounded.

You need to balance your media diet. You have got to not just watch romance. It will overly flavor your taste, and you're not gonna notice when the creators are playing with things outside of romance. You got to...expand your horizons, because the more types of stories you encounter, the more you'll be able to enjoy the stories that you love the most. It's good for you to watch something other than BL.

NiNi 

And with that, that is going to wrap us up on episode one of our fall season. Dun-da-da-dun!

Shan

Wow.

Ben 

I'm really glad we're starting on a high note because BOY was summer rough! Ha ha! Shit!

NiNi

I just want to point out we just at the end of the summer had our 50th episode. So this is our 51st and this is our 8th season. We are rounding out into almost two years of doing this show. We're going to have some thoughts about that as we wind down.

With that, we out. Say bye to the people, Shan.

Shan

Bye, people.

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

[the-conversation-pod]

Thank you for the love!

Shout out to @the-conversation-pod for their 50th episode! I found their podcast when I watched a @talistheintrovert video a few month back when I was procrastinating on doing HW.

Since I started listening to the Conversation podcast past spring, it’s introduced me to this fabulous world of Asian queer QLs. As a queer asian american, it’s been such a joy to discover this new world and find so many fun shows to watch.

Here’s to the next 50 episodes!🎉🎉

[the-conversation-pod]

Summer 2024 Lagniappe (A Minisode)

AND WE'RE BACK!

Summer didn’t give us a lot to say, but we ALWAYS got something to say. Ben, NiNi and Shan talk a highlight of the season, Twig reports from the field, and we award summer’s Girl Who Tried.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:02:21 - Twig’s Dispatch 00:14:24 - Spotlight: Tadaima, Okaeri 00:20:34 - Girl, You Tried 00:27:08 - Celebrating 50 Episodes

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 Introduction and Summer Season Recap

Ben

And we're back. We have reached the end of the summer season. It is hot as hell and hurricane season is active, but we at least still have our shows to watch.

Shan

Wow, what a way to set the mood.

NiNi

That is [laughs] one way to start, for sure. [NiNi and Shan laugh]

Ben

Girl, I’m stressed! [laughs]

NiNi

I feel you. I feel you. I feel you. We are here. The summer has been… it's been a lot. 

Let's just dive right into what we came here to discuss. Shan is here. Say hi, Shan. 

Shan

Hi! 

NiNi

We're going to talk a few things that we didn't talk through this season. Twig’s gonna come in and leave us her dispatch, and then we're gonna round it up and award the Girl, You Tried. There are a lot of girls who tried this season. [laughs]

00:02:20 Twig’s Dispatch

DISPATCH! Thank you for having me back. [music]

While folks were lamenting having nothing to watch this quarter, I was as busy as ever!

In the skip section: Sadly, Korea really dominated this category last season, starting with Blossom Campus. Honestly, this was the biggest disappointment this season for me. This was my–the Korean independent team Strongberry, who I normally love—they released a full length Kdrama that, I don’t understand how it went so wrong. The story is about a university transfer student who works at the library and ends up in a few interactions with a taekwondo major and they fall for each other. It was boring, the story didn’t really flow, the chemistry was flat.The only good thing I can say for it is that when they do kiss, they kiss well. But it was not worth watching to get there.This was the least queer Strongberry has ever felt, and to add insult to injury it ends on a cliffhanger. This is a pass from me, friends. 

Love is Like a Cat. Mew of the newly public MewTul relationship stars in this hybrid Thai/Korean production that did not manage to retain the good qualities of either country. It is bad. And not even in a fun way. The premise is a famous Thai actor is blackmailed into doing a Korean reality series in which he has to work in a dog cafe, despite being afraid of dogs. That sounds like it would be cute and fun, and somehow it was neither. Poor acting, cinematography, chemistry, story, everything was mid. Also, content warning for animal death—way to alienate your target audience. 

Gray Shelter was a Korean short series that barely felt like BL? Honestly, it was trying to walk a trauma narrative and BL line and I don’t think it did that successfully. The romance felt rushed and the trauma part felt like it was being sad for the sake of sad rather than having anything to actually say about trauma. Also had another cliffhanger ending. Not my fav.

Moving away from Korea, Lady Boy Friends is a show that has a high barrier to enjoyment, so judge for yourself. It’s a remake from 2015 and the premise is an ensemble show in an all boys high school in which a good percentage of the cast are actually trans girls in an all boys school. There is a lot of infighting amongst the trans women, they are extremely catty and mean and clique-y to each other. That part I honestly found kind of fun, and I did enjoy them banding together against a common enemy. Unfortunately that common enemy is another trans girl who is looked down on for transitioning “late” which calls her authenticity into question. This show also has sexual assault played as comedy which is honestly the main reason why it’s in this section; there was also a gay couple who got the bulk of the focus in the last few episodes, and while that storyline will likely be the most appealing to this audience, I didn’t particularly like that the trans characters got short shrift in their own show, so. I didn’t fully love it.

Kiseki Chapter 2. This was a production by 9NAA. They have a history of not paying and exploiting their actors, and they’ve done it too many times, so I didn’t watch this one. Pay your actors and hire intimacy coaches and then I’ll talk about your shows. 

The last one in this section is actually a GL Thai channel that I wanted to shout out. It’s just not to my taste, but I don’t like gatekeeping GL ‘cause there’s so little of it and it’s so hard to find. So, if you’re a fan of the melodrama and older, toxic relationship type tropes, give these guys a try. Last quarter they put out “Friend with Benefits the series” and “Sea [as in S-E-A] you soon”, and my favorite of the three was “You Are My Star the series” which I enjoyed because it retread a lot of BL tropes so I watched it and played, sort of, spot the BL parallels. JPC Media Channel on YouTube.

Now onto the shows that you might actually want to consider. There were a few genre BLs this season that were varying degrees of hit or miss so I’ve grouped them together. I love genre stories, so I don’t want to be too harsh on shows that push the boundaries of the BL genre, but all of these had at least one fatal flaw that makes me not able to recommend them without caveats.

Memory in the Letter is a Thai BL sci-fi/fantasy in which a student falls in love with a stranger in the mirror. This is a short series that had real high highs and low lows for me, including some of the best chemistry across a pane of glass I’ve ever seen. But also, the ending was so poorly handled that I had to call poor Ben to watch with me just so that I’d have someone to share my psychic damage with. Without spoiling anything, this show involves an age gap with actors not age-appropriately cast to hide the fact that the age gap is so large? It also doesn’t treat the age gap seriously or engage with the very serious problems that it raises in its own plot, and I found that very frustrating. So. Make your own choices on that one. 

1000 Years Old the series. This show is a Thai vampire show that spends the first three quarters being an extremely low stakes series in which a vampire owns a pork blood soup stand and a glorious umbrella collection, and is in love with a man obsessed with searching for alien life. It is exactly as silly as it sounds. But then the last few episodes everything turns into intense melodrama, and I’m going to spoil this because I don’t know how not to: We find out that the vampire stays friendly with another vampire who murdered his human lover across multiple lifetimes. I was vibing and then I was really not. 

Two Worlds is another Thai series, and a MaxNat vehicle. The premise of this one is as it says on the tin: There are two parallel universes connected by a glowing body of water. Our protagonist loses his love interest and travels to the parallel universe accidentally while grieving, to realize he has the chance to save his boyfriend’s doppelganger in this new world. While he does that, he finds himself falling for someone else instead. This series is a relatively slow burn show. Whoever made this show, they did the most bewilderingly good job of undercutting every dramatic moment so that it had no stakes or impact that I’ve ever seen. This show was almost impressively boring considering how much was happening at any given moment. I liked that it seemed to be saying people weren’t interchangeable, but then in the end the show undermined its own message. Watching this show was informative for learning about pacing and how narrative tension works or doesn’t in shows. 

Last in this section is The Spirealm. This is a chinese danmei adaptation that we almost didn’t get because of censorship; it was heavily adapted so that rather than magic, the core of the unnatural happenings are a Virtual Reality video game in which our leads have to puzzle through dangerous mysteries to figure out the secrets of each level. It’s fun in an “oh this does feel like a video game” kinda way, and I enjoyed puzzling through the mysteries alongside the leads. But the mysteries drag on too long and they’re repetitive, and the ending of the book is actually really undermined from the adaptation choices. Also, if you’re watching for romance subtext, this is a VERY tame story even for censored cdrama. They barely touch, the shipping moments are few and far between in a long series. So, be forewarned.

Moving away from the supernatural and back to more standard QL fare, A Secretly Love. This felt like a very old-school Thai series, a feeling that was helped by the horrifically bad subtitles; about an engineering student who has been in love with this senior for years and watched him fail miserably at romance over and over. This heavily relies on the viewer enjoying the lead pining over someone who treats him badly for most of the series. So, in order to enjoy this, you have to find someone showing affection by being grumpy, rude, jealous, and demanding cute. No judgment, just giving you the information you need to no. Worth watching if you’re nostalgic for 2020s Thai BL. 

Please Teach Me This is a vertical-format microseries from Korea about an aspiring idol trying to attend college that you have to grind through ads in order to watch. Honestly the series was fine, very middle-of-the-road KBL, but the microseries format and the barriers to watching make it not worth sitting through, in my opinion. 

Blank the Series is a Thai GL is in the same universe as GAP, so if you miss Sam and Mon the characters, they do appear, though portrayed by different actresses. The main couple in this story have a 16-year age gap and the romance starts when the younger one is in high school, though due to plot reasons she’s of age. I know that’s a barrier for some, so I wanted to mention it off the jump, especially because she acts young. That’s the part that I actually struggled with most. This story is very lakorn-like in terms of it being very high melodrama; it also, especially in part two, gets quite sexy. The height difference is also really something. It’s in two parts and both are complete, it does have a happy ending with a cute timeskip. So, you know, manage yourselves on that one.

Jazz For Two. High school Korean music BL in which the main couple really fell flat for me and the side couple were a bully-turned-love-interest that I also really did not enjoy. This show tried to incorporate internalized homophobia as part of its main storyline but didn’t engage with characters overcoming it, so everyone feels kind of like they suddenly switch from being in a drama to a romance and it was both jarring and honestly, a little offensive. Trigger warnings are also important for this one, so take care of yourselves if you’re deciding to watch it.

Boys Be Brave. Another KBL in which a man who can’t say no tries to get the person with a crush on him to ask him out, to no avail. This felt like it was trying to be a manic pixie dream boy meets an autistic-coded grump, but they didn’t quite calibrate either of those characters right. The side couple also ended up landing kind of badly in terms of class politics. But it was pretty, and they were cute. I actually had fun with this one despite everything I just said. 

Deep Night is a Thai BL in which the son of a club owner is against the host/club business model until he falls for one of his mother’s hosts. He decides to start working there to get closer to him. You might imagine that a setup like that would involve class and power politics, but you would be wrong! That being said, this show has a lot to recommend it: The main couple has great chemistry and the side couple is a canonical throuple, and there is another side couple of older sapphics to enjoy, as well. It is also very prettily shot. 

Lastly, Close Friend 3: Soju Bomb is a beautifully shot and cute friendship drama, another Thai/Korean joint series this time about Thai boys in a Korean band who go on a bender in Korea after their contract is canceled. Honestly, my only caveat about this show is that it is absolutely not a BL. There isn’t a romance subplot at all in this show. I spent the entire time it aired so confused waiting for the romance to appear! It does not. If it hadn’t been advertised as Close Friend 3–a series which was previously all BL shorts–I would have enjoyed this for what it was. As it stands, I hold a grudge for being misled. Go in knowing what you’re getting and you’ll be fine. 

Finally, let’s get to the shows that you might have missed that I actually recommend. To Be Continued, a Thai second chance romance of a famous person and a doctor who were friends when they were in high school. This one tells a lot of the story in flashbacks that are poorly paced at the beginning, so the start of the show really drags. But the reveal for why they broke up was satisfying. The pacing is the barrier in this one–if you can power through the first few episodes it ends up being a good little show. They have great chemistry, the story holds together, and I had fun.

Gym Affairs is an absolutely bonkers but cute mainland China BL in which a guy gets a personal trainer and sparks fly. This show is a silly comedy that is also surprisingly earnest. It goes by extremely fast and I really enjoyed the ride. That one’s on YouTube.

Blue Boys/Lonely Girl. SUKFilm is a Korean YouTube channel putting out short series. Blue Boys was a little disappointing, the couple had too many issues that they cycled through so fast.  The GL though, Lonely Girl, was much more focused with a single main problem between the couple and so it worked much better. And both are really beautifully shot and have some great kisses. 

Fake Buddies is another YouTube miniseries. It’s a 7 episode Korean series about a girl and guy who are dating, ostensibly, but really both using the other as a beard because they’re both in a gay relationship. The first few episodes are very funny comedy as the two of them try to make the other realize what’s happening; and then we get prequel episodes for how the gay couple and the lesbian couple both came to be. It’s a fun use of 45 minutes on the guynextdoor YouTube channel if you’re bored. 

To the X Who Hated Me is a Korean GL produced by Red Q. It’s a series of microseries, there’s two out so far with 2-3 episodes each. They’re both GL and solid short second chance romances that are very fun. 

City of Stars is the last one I’ll be talking about. It’s, in my opinion, the best hidden gem QL from this quarter. A charming celebrity/regular guy romance that tackles shipping, toxic fans, and the unreasonable expectations on people in the spotlight. Acting is a little rough, and it’s not  perfect, but it had some really good things to say and it very smartly sandwiches those things among some pretty good sex scenes. The two leads are my communication kings. And there’s some decent trans side rep as well. This show really uses BL as a vehicle for having something to say and I appreciate it. And the story really holds together in a way that’s a little refreshing in Thai BL, too, so I really liked it.

And that’s the dispatch for this quarter! Thanks again for having me. 

00:14:25 Spotlight: Tadaima Okaeri

Ben

It's time to talk about my favorite show of the season that no one else watched except for Twig. [NiNi laughs] We're going to talk about an animated BL from Japan called Tadaima, Okaeri. It is the best show of the season and I'm begging you, please, to go watch this show. 

Tadaima, Okaeri is a 12 episode BL from Studio Deen that aired on Crunchyroll. Studio Deen is actually fairly important in the BL space. Pretty much all of the BL anime that we're probably going to recommend to you offhand was produced by the studio. In this particular one, they're adapting a manga series about a gay couple in the omegaverse that is trying to raise their kid in the suburbs. Our protagonist's name Fujiyoshi Masaki, that is actually his name, and his husband, Hiromu. Masaki is an omega, his husband is an alpha, and they have a son named Hikari together. He is a little baby and they are living in the burbs away from everybody else because they had a very difficult time getting together. 

The show was not so much about the difficulties these two had getting together, it's about them building a life that they love and are happy with after going through what they did. So, like, this is your favorite leads, married and trying to raise their family now and working on healing some of the relationships that were damaged over the course of them getting together. There's a great deal of healing and growth in this. There's healing between Hiromu and his dad, who was not keen on their romance in the first place. There's the fact that these two guys love each other and love being parents. I am very often amused by how much my dad is still obsessed with my mom. And I really liked seeing that in a gay couple here. It was really restorative in a lot of ways, ‘cause we don't ever really see dads in BL. 

This show was so healing. This was such a peaceful experience of a show to watch. What I like the most out of fluffy shows like this is for there to be a nice arc about what life we’re building for our family and a strong thematic thrust of, we're not trying to get back at anybody who hurt us. We just want our kid to grow up in a world where he—and eventually their daughter too—are loved by the people around them. Each episode was about a specific sort of challenge that the family was facing, and some of them were really huge. Like, how are we going to reconcile with the kids’ grandfather who wants to be part of his grandson's life? Even if it's something as small as, Hikaru is getting older and he wants to run an errand. Okay, we're going to let him deliver a letter to his grandfather to the mailbox, and getting a two year old to deliver something [laughs] successfully to a mailbox was a production unto itself, because he kept getting distracted. 

It was genuinely one of the most delightful and wholesome experiences I have ever had in the genre. I have said for a long time that I've wanted a married gay dads show. I was not expecting it to come from the omegaverse of all places, but this was everything I ever hoped it could be and honestly, so much more. If you can handle omegaverse nonsense, including mpreg and the alpha omega pheromone shit, and rutting behavior. This is one of the best shows I have ever seen.

Shan

Oof. [Ben laughs] You just said so many words that upset me.

Ben

I know. I know!

[all laugh]

NiNi

I was like, “if you can handle” I can handle none of those things. I'm sorry.

Ben

If you're gonna be in genre, you gotta take your shit seriously, and I think that's why it worked. This show was not embarrassed about being an omegaverse show. It's not like [funny voice] we're going to do this in omegaverse because we know the girls will fucking show up for it. It took the conceits of its own genre seriously and incorporated it into the emotional context of their characters. 

And so like I totally get it, mpreg is not easy for a lot of people. The rutting behavior stuff, it's not easy for some people. The way that omegaverse is used to perpetuate some of the heteronormative kinds of misogyny that women face is not for everyone, truly and sincerely. When I say that these are caveats to watching this, I am not being funny. These are real things that are being dealt with in this show, but they're not half-assing it. These are not normally things I enjoy. Tell a good story and take your shit seriously and we can show up for it. And that's what happened for me here. 

So, I wholeheartedly recommend this show, but I do think it's important to not downplay that this is very legitimately an omegaverse story.

Shan

I appreciate that.

Ben

It's a 10, baby! Perfect execution of its own premise, and genuinely, it's the kinda show that was so fun to watch with other people.

Shan

I have been so intrigued by the conversation around this show and I really regret that it has so many of my hard lines in it [laughs[ because I would like to see it. I don't think I'll be able to, but I have heard nothing but praise and love from the people who've watched it.

Ben

I love the show with my whole heart. I do not recommend it at all. [Ben and NiNi laugh] This show had really strong ideas and it wore its whole heart on its sleeves the whole time. Mm mm mm. What an experience. Great show.

00:20:32 Girl, You Tried

Ben

Let's hand out our favorite award on the show: Girl, You Tried.

NiNi

Our nominees this season for a Girl, You Tried are Unknown the series from Taiwan, Love is Better the Second Time Around from Japan, and Living With Him from Japan. Does anybody wanna do propaganda here?

Ben

Ooh…

Shan

Let's start with reminding folks how we think about Girl, You Tried.

Ben

The Girl, You Tried for me is meant to reflect on a production that missed the mark, but we felt like the core work and the intent was there to actually do something good, and for whatever reason stumbled.

Shan

There's different ways that shows can stumble. There are shows that can be very well told and very confident up to a point, and then a mistake is made that is hard to recover from. There are shows that never quite nailed what they were trying to do, but did clearly have aspirations. There are shows that have a solid idea of at least the beginning and endpoints and something in the middle just got messy. So, those are different categories of ways that shows can go sideways. And all of these different ways came up in this season. 

For me, a show like Unknown is not a Girl, You Tried because they actually did succeed at what they were doing for the vast majority of their run. So I wouldn't call that a Girl, You Tried. They made a mistake right at the end—and it was a big mistake—but their level of execution was so good through most of the show that I can't really consider that a Girl, You Tried. 

For our two Japanese BLs here, Love is Better was really solid through about the first four episodes, and then it kind of veered off in a very strange direction that I still don't really understand why that happened. Versus Living With Him had a solid start, had a pretty decent end point that it was trying to get towards, and then got kind of messed up along the way trying to stretch out the story. 

So for me I think I would want to give the Girl, You Tried to Living With Him out of these three, because I do think they had the bones of a good story. They executed parts of it really well. But in their effort to stretch it out into a longer format than the story really supported, they kind of lost track of some of their threads and got a little confused in the way that they landed at the end. So for me that one makes more sense as a Girl, You Tried because I see what they were trying to do. And I think that they just made some execution errors that got in the way.

Ben

An interesting analysis; one I will be pondering. It feels mean to say that Unknown is a Girl, You Tried because they rushed to their sex scene. It ignores how good the family story was around all of that, but I am also torn now if I'm going to choose between Love is Better and Living With Him because I feel like my angst for Living With Him is it doesn't release the implied sexual tension that really irritated me more than anything else, which Love is Better absolutely did. 

Man, this is hard.

Shan

Have we ever had a Girl, You Tried tie?

Ben

We have not.

NiNi

There's usually a fairly clear cut winner once we talk about it, but I think part of the problem is that Love is Better and Living With Him sort of failed in similar ways, so it's hard to choose.

Ben

If I have to choose between the two of them, Love is Better the Second Time Around knew exactly what it was doing and it made very bad choices, and there's a difference between making stupid choices and struggling against something you couldn't do, in my opinion. I will give it to Living With Him because there's so much hang time, it's overly reliant on actor charm to hold itself together, and I do like how well the cast was able to hold this flimsy project together.

I think weaker actors would have made this a more irritating experience than it was, as opposed to just being kind of disappointing. So if I'm backed into a corner and have to choose [Shan laughs], it's going to be Living With Him.

Shan

[laughs] You do. Good job.

NiNi

Oh no, I'm about to throw a spanner in the works because I'm going to go for Love Is Better. [laughs]

Shan

This is very exciting! This is Conversation pod history!

Ben

Go ahead, give us your reasoning. 

NiNi

For me, the original premise of Girl, You Tried was always ‘a strong idea that failed in the execution,’ and I feel like the ideas from Love is Better were stronger to me than the ideas in Living With Him, just in terms of, A, what I was interested in seeing and, B, what they wanted to do. I feel like those ideas were stronger in Love is Better. So the failure of the execution part is not the part that I'm looking at in terms of comparing the two, but the strength of the premise part.

Ben

Because both of these shows had really strong gay themes in them that I was really compelled by, I am going to allow them to tie and both get a Girl, You Tried, because I think both these shows were trying to do something really cool. I think by episode 3 and 4 both of these shows, I was like, “This show's got something in it. This is a real contender!” And then it was like, “Oh no, what happened, girl? Come on.” [laughs]

NiNi

So our first ever Girl, You Tried tie! Girls, you both tried.

Ben

Congratulations to Japan for getting your first Girl, You Tried awards. 

NiNi

Is it?

Shan

And the double at that! Japan, always overachieving.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

00:27:02 Celebrating 50 Episodes

NiNi

I think we have exorcized the demon of the summer, so let's wrap this up. We are wrapping our summer lagniappe and wrapping our summer season. See you in dot-dot-dot weeks for our fall season beginning as soon as I can get my shit together and edit.

Shan

NiNi, should we shout out that this is the 50th episode of the podcast?

Ben

Oh shit!

NiNi

[gasp] Oh my God, we didn't even talk about that! Yes, congratulate us, guys. This is episode number 50 for The Conversation! 

Ben

Oh my God. [air horn sound]

Shan

There ya go.

Ben

If you are one of our listeners who has listened to us talk for all 50 episodes, please—

Shan

Wow.

Ben

—shout us out on Tumblr. I would love to talk to you and see how you're feeling about what we're doing after all this time.

Shan

You're a trooper if you actually did that.

NiNi

[laughs] Please, please, please. If you love us and you're hearing this, we are 50 episodes old today. Send us a note. Either send us a note on Tumblr if you know how to do that, or send us something in the Spotify down below—whatever…answer the thing thing.

Ben

[laughs] In the doobly-doo.

NiNi

Listen, okay? Auntie's old, okay? She don't remember what things are called. 

We out! Say bye to the people, Shan.

Shan

Bye, people!

NiNi

Ben, say bye to the people.

Ben

Peace.

[the-conversation-pod]

Signal boost!

*taps mic*

Hey y'all!

Welcome to September! It's been a quiet summer around here, things got...hectic. We've got some catching up to do. The good news is we're back in the booth and the edit suite and we've got some good stuff coming your way.

September means it's inbox time again, so go on ahead and send us your questions and comments, and listen out for us to discuss them on the show! Our fall inbox will be open until the end of the month, and we always look forward to hearing from listeners.

See you soon!

Ben, NiNi, Ginny and Shan

[the-conversation-pod]

*taps mic*

Hey y'all!

Welcome to September! It's been a quiet summer around here, things got...hectic. We've got some catching up to do. The good news is we're back in the booth and the edit suite and we've got some good stuff coming your way.

September means it's inbox time again, so go on ahead and send us your questions and comments, and listen out for us to discuss them on the show! Our fall inbox will be open until the end of the month, and we always look forward to hearing from listeners.

See you soon!

Ben, NiNi, Ginny and Shan

[the-conversation-pod]

GMMTV Breakfast Club: On 23.5 and Only Boo!

AND WE'RE BACK!

School's in at GMMTV, but we gotta put two series in detention for not fulfilling the assignment. The actors were charming, but the finishes were...rough. Ben, NiNi and Ginny talk 23.5 and Only Boo, the merits of high school stories, and the specific challenges of telling stories about queer high schoolers.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:01:15 - Introduction: Two High School Shows from GMMTV 00:02:18 - 23.5: Early Reactions 00:14:18 - 23.5: Supporting Characters 00:21:27 - 23.5: Frustration with the Writing and Execution 00:33:42 - 23.5: Final Arc and Ratings 00:38:42 - Only Boo! 00:48:06 - Only Boo: Popping the Bubble 00:58:42 - Only Boo: If You're Gonna Do An Idol Story, Commit 01:05:06 - Only Boo: Final Thoughts and Ratings 01:08:45 - Outro: High School Blues

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 Introduction: Two High School Shows from GMMTV

Ben 

And we're back. This week we're going to be discussing 23.5 and Only Boo. We brought our friend Ginny along as usual. Say hi, Ginny.

Ginny 

Hey folks!

NiNi 

We are talking high school from GMMTV. Ben and I, in the VIIB Awards, we discussed that it might feel like GMMTV does high school a lot, but they don't actually. So it was really interesting to see them delve into these high school stories with, let's say, mixed results.

Ben 

It's kind of weird that GMMTV went from, like, not really doing high school to having two shows running simultaneously. It's kind of surprising from them, honestly.

NiNi 

Lest we forget to point it out, 23.5 is also GMMTV's first GL. I think in terms of that, that they handled it pretty well as a GL.

00:02:18 23.5: Early Reactions

NiNi

Ben, what is 23.5 about?

Ben 

23.5 is a high school GL about a young woman named Ongsa who is moving from Phuket to Bangkok. She's a fan of this girl on Instagram and happens to run into her very early in her new time at the school, develops a crush on her, accidentally befriends her through her IG, but gets presumed to be a guy, and then proceeds to high key catfish this girl [laughs] sorting out her feelings about whether or not she, could possibly like her.

She lives with her parents, her older sister, and their cousin who's the same age as her. Her cousin's very much an easy autism read who ends up in her own romance with her big cousin's friend. We end up in this show dealing with Ongsa's complicated feelings of self-worth and how in her tendency to put her own self down, she kind of lets down the people around her. At least I think that's what the show's trying to do.

Ginny, why don't you walk us through how you felt in anticipation of the show after it got announced a very long time ago.

Ginny 

So long ago. So Milk and Love, the two lead actresses, were, of course, the side couple in Bad Buddy. So it was no surprise that they were announced as the lead couple of the first GMMTV GL. I was very excited just to see GMMTV finally moving into this space. It's been good to see more studios open to producing GLs and GMMTV being one of the biggest, definitely wanted to see them do it. So, without really caring much about what the story was going to be, I just wanted to see them do a GL and do a decent job. I was not super invested in, oh, is this going to be a plot or a premise that really appeals to me? I was just like, let's have some girls fall in love and make a good story. 

It was a longer run up than I think a lot of people wanted. There was a lot of disgruntlement, some conspiracy theory feelings about it that I don't really hold to. I do think they were giving as much to this show as they do to their big flagship BL stories. Was very excited and also nervous tuning into the first episode because this clearly was going to be a weathervane for them to decide how much to invest in the GL side going forward.

NiNi 

It was over a year that we've waited and waited and waited for this. They had a really long shoot schedule. They were shooting this thing for an inordinate amount of time, and I think that for me, added to the anticipation. Because it felt like they were taking their time with it, so I was very excited about that. I like Milk, I like Love, I like June, I like View. I was really looking forward to watching all of them really get into this with a director and a team that I had enjoyed. This is from Fon Kanittha, and Fon did 10 Years Ticket, which is one of my favorite things that GMMTV has done. 

Ben, what about you? How were you anticipating this? What were you looking forward to about it? What were some of your concerns coming into it?

Ben 

I was admittedly really nervous about this show going into it. We had drama in the reactions to this show in just the original casting choices.Fourth and Gemini were originally announced as part of the cast for this, and then, looks like GMMTV shuffled some stuff because they wanted to prioritize the boys' availability for a different project because My School President was received apparently really well, at least enough for GMMTV to make some different decisions.

But there was a lot of drama in the English language reactions about not wanting BL paired boys in this at all. So I was worried from the get go that we were already having fights about the market that they were trying to pull in. And I was really nervous about what GMMTV was gonna do with this. I've bitched on this podcast quite a few times about when I think BL doesn't necessarily care that much about how queer their boys read and sometimes ship is more important than some sort of queer coming of age beat that they really wanna hit. I was really nervous about what that might look like for a GL because we don't have a framework for what that looks like. there's actually not a great deal of lesbian coming of age romance internationally, even, to pull from, and even within Thailand there's only a couple of projects that I can really refer to from like a lesbian film history. And most of those are for college girls. So there were a lot of big question marks for me going into this, so I actually went in with not a whole lot of expectation from this. I'm admittedly not familiar with Fon's work. I did not watch 10 Years Ticket. But I knew that folks like NiNi were really excited and wanted to see what Fon doing a GL would look like. 

So, there was a lot of anticipation and hope about what it could be, but I actually went in with very few expectations about what it might look like as a result.

NiNi 

So, Ginny, having those expectations and coming into the show, what were your first impressions of 23.5? What are some of the first things that you picked up on and maybe really enjoyed about it?

Ginny 

I loved the beginning. There were a couple different ways I was afraid that it might go wrong. One was that it would just feel like a gender flipped BL. Another was that it would be like overly softened and pastel in, especially what is usually labeled sapphic romance these days, frequently things are all very soft and delicate.

NiNi 

[laughs] Vaseline all over the lens and, like, nobody's talking too loud, yeah.

Ginny

Yeah, and I like to see women in stories, and especially women falling in love in stories feel as much like real people with all of the edges that real people have as boys get to do. So a thing that just thrilled me from episode 1 was what a mess Ongsa is. Ongsa played by Milk, incredible performance. Whatever criticisms, and we have many of the show, I think we can all agree that Milk was wonderful in this role and really did a phenomenal job of playing this tense and awkward and intensely self-conscious teenage lesbian that I saw so many people I know in. The way that she falls on the floor after having a phone message with her crush that's a little bit awkward but also positive and the way she would just flail around. The way it felt like she didn't quite know what to do with her body, like she's still growing and gangly and awkward, was just so beautifully done and I really enjoyed it. And it really did feel distinctly like girls as opposed to just, we're gonna do a BL but with wigs on.

I can't even put a finger on it, but there were so many little details that I was like, yes, this feels like young girls falling in love. The way that you feel about a pretty girl in school that you can barely even stand to talk to, and you feel like this giant gangly monster and she's this otherworldly gorgeous creature. So many of those nuances, especially in the earlier episodes, were just beautifully done and I loved them so much.

NiNi 

I feel like one of the things that helped contribute to that feel was the wardrobe. From the time I saw all the ways they were dressed, I was just like, this is what tropical girls in high school dressed like. There's a lot of t-shirts and shorts.

Ginny 

Yes!

NiNi 

It's not fancy, it's not done up. You're at home and you're chilling and you're wearing a t -shirt and some running shorts and maybe you've got socks on because your feet are cold for some reason. It made me think of growing up back in Trinidad because this is how it is. It felt really real. It felt like, okay, they understand girls.

Ginny 

Yes. There's one scene where they're running around the school at night for reasons—they shouldn't be there—but they're all in their little t-shirts. And it's like this slumber party feeling of excitement. And you're close to this person that you have a crush on. And somehow the wardrobe just made it all feel so much more like, yes, I've been there. I know what that feels like.

NiNi 

Ben, what about you? What are some of the things that you enjoyed when you started watching the show?

Ben

I was relieved that Ongsa already seemed to know that she liked girls. And so we get to enjoy Milk playing this human disaster of a lesbian in the early episodes. I often feel like there's a tension with some of the actors about their image. And some of them seem to struggle with having to be cringy or kind of gross. And Milk is not one of them. It's why I think a lot of her characters have such a believable quality to them. The way they move, they feel like they're present in the space. They don't feel necessarily like they're aware of the camera. They're just so focused on what they're trying to feel in the moment. 

I rarely have trouble accessing Milk's characters across the various performances we've been lucky enough to have from her. And I really liked her in the early stages. I liked how she played the absolute mess that was her character. The way she was struggling with same-sex attraction and the idea that reciprocity was not something that was accessible to her. That's a very common queer feeling that I think was captured really well. So I really understood Ongsa's early hesitancy when it came to clearing things up with Sun. And I thought that was really well done.

NiNi 

I feel like I always end up with the 'I as well!' But I too am here to praise Milk. I have enjoyed Milk as an actor. She hasn't had a lot to do yet, but with this role, I feel like she nailed it on from minute one, the very first frame that she's in, I a hundred percent believe her. I believe everything about her character. I believe the feelings that her character has. I believe that she believes that she is this awkward loser who's never gonna have friends or anybody. And I also believe when she stops believing that. 

There's some quality to Milk and her acting—maybe it's the ability to go for the cringy without being too worried about how she looks—she nailed on that character. A hundred percent believable from beginning to end, even through some of the wobbles that we're gonna talk about later on in terms of the story. There was never a point in time where I did not believe Milk as Ongsa and that this is how Ongsa would react to these things happening in her life.

00:14:18 23.5: Supporting Characters

NiNi

Let's talk a little bit about some of the other characters. We've got Milk playing Ongsa, and then we've got Love playing Sun. I struggled a little bit with Sun? I think that it was good casting to have Love play Sun, because this idea of this girl who is so sweet and cute and gorgeous, this girl that Ongsa would absolutely fall in love with, I totally bought that from Love. But I feel like the story didn't expect much more of her? I truly enjoyed Love's performance when she was given stuff to do.

Ginny 

Yeah, I agree. There were moments later in the series where we got to see her dig in and give us something more than this very sweet, kind, and pretty love interest character. I was like, “See, she can do it. Why didn't you give her more to do earlier?” It's hard to talk about her performance because they didn't give her very much to do and the writing was pretty shaky on her character, I think. 

View—playing Aylin the cousin—I've always been a huge fan of View's acting. She's never not nailed a role as far as I've seen and she was also a delight in this.

Ciize, I thought was great. Also sadly underused, but where she was, she really shone. Even though she's smaller than everybody else, she is the alpha. She's the class president and the older sister. Very tired and keeping everybody in shape. Enjoyed her role a lot.

I don't have a lot to say about June.

Ben

Oop! [all laugh] 

Ginny

Sorry, June!

Ben 

What do you have to say about June? Well, she was there. [laughs] Damn.

NiNi 

I find June as an actor quite accessible a lot of the time, but in this I wasn't sure what she was supposed to be? I feel like her characterization wasn't clear and because of that I didn't know where to land on her performance. I feel like I enjoyed it, but then also it felt, not wobbly exactly, but more confused.

Ginny 

I think there was a similar issue as with Love's character, Sun, where they were both there to be the love interest for the awkward, weird character, and they weren't given anything else to do except to be sweet and accepting towards the awkward, weird character. That's a shame. I haven't seen June in anything else, so that's why I don't have anything to say about her. 

Ben 

Oh, did you not watch Dangerous Romance?

Ginny 

I did not. 

NiNi 

Stop it right now. 

Ben 

Did you know?

NiNi

Stop it right [laughs] that a windmill—

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Ginny 

Somehow, I do know that. [laughs]

NiNi 

That's never gonna get old.

Ben 

I will always make time for windmill jokes on this podcast.

[NiNi and Ginny laugh]

NiNi 

June was also in 10 Years Ticket. View and June were together in 10 Years Ticket and that's why I think they were also cast for this, because their characters in 10 Years Ticket were shipped together and I completely understand why. Even though they were not an actual couple in 10 Years Ticket, the energy was there. So I understand how they ended up paired together. So it was very strange that they went from a really solid, I thought, pairing in 10 Years Ticket to something here that felt so, to me in the end, wobbly.

Ginny 

Well, the problem is it was one-sided. Aylin was a great character and Luna, June's character, was just kind of there and they had a weird moment late in the series that kinda soured me on their whole story. But earlier they were very fun and good together. It was just that Luna was kind of just a pleasing backdrop to Aylin's whole situation.

Ben 

I don't think the casting team knows why most of the cast is even in this show. ‘Cause you have a lot of really talented people who are doing the best with the direction that they're being given on the day that they were filming. But just like every one of these episodes, as we'll get into, felt like it was internally fine, but not part of what came before or after it in a really consistent or coherent way, I think Love and June suffer the most for that. 

I think Love's actually really funny and really talented, but I don't think she knew what she was supposed to be doing for most of the show. She felt like she was lost in a lot of her scenes, it just does not feel very grounded. I don't think Love understood Sun, and I don't know that that's necessarily her fault either.

I think June is fine in terms of her ability to work with View but it was kind of a weird set of performances to watch. 

Let me talk bout the rest of these fucking side characters. This show had t4t teacher yuri.

NiNi 

The show had teachers in the school. Two of those teachers are being played by Golf and Godji. And these two teachers are supposed to be having a little side romance. I love a teacher side romance in a school show. However. Dot dot dot.

Ben

It's really frustrating because there was a real opportunity for these two women to sort of model what these younger characters could have. There's the whole hapless quality that Golf's character BamBam has that is probably meant to mirror what Ongsa has kinda going on. But I don't really know that they ever figured out something useful to do with them. It just feels like another beat happening. It doesn't feel like it's in sync with any sort of storytelling that's going on here.

Ginny 

It felt to me like it was just there to be there. There's t4t, yuri, or transbians as my friend likes to say— 

Ben 

TRANSBIANS!

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi 

I love that! Transbians! That is awesome.

Ginny 

[laughs] It felt like they're saying, “Oh, there's transbians, and that's enough. We don't have to actually make them have, like, a coherent story or more than a few cute moments here and there. I remember distinctly the episode where I realized what was supposed to be happening is this modeling thing. And it was in episode, like, 10 or something. It was so far into the series. But it just didn't come through early enough to have any kind of an impact.

I do like that they gave us those two teachers. I'm glad I would like us to get more transbians. [laughs] But I wish they'd done a better job.

00:21:27 23.5: Frustration with the Writing and Execution

NiNi 

I feel like we're dancing around a little bit like where we think that some of the criticisms of the story are coming from, so let's dive into that. I feel like the beginning of the story, that first arc of Ongsa basically catfishing Sun, I felt like that arc was really strong. Like, I understood what was happening there. And then it gets squishy in the middle once it's obvious to Sun that Ongsa is this person that she's been talking to the whole time that she thought was a guy. 

I feel like once that happens, the show starts getting interested in other things that had nothing to do with what had gone before. It wasn't following on from that first arc. And then somehow at the end they kinda try to dovetail back to that first arc in certain ways while also doing a third arc that doesn't really work? 

It feels disjointed and disconnected. It feels like in each episode they knew what they wanted to accomplish, but the episodes themselves don't link together into a coherent story.

Ginny 

For me, it felt like right up through the reveal that Ongsa was Earth, it felt coherent and I was with it, and at that point, I was feeling like this is a really solid show. And then it felt like they did about four or five episodes that, each one of them belonged to a different story. Each episode was a coherent story in itself, but did not feel very connected to what came before or what came afterward or much of the established characterization. And then at the end they did kind of tie some of the emotional impact of that big deception and reveal in, and Love got to actually do some good acting as Sun talked to Ongsa about her frustrations about how Ongsa kept holding back in this relationship. Which was great, but I was already so spun around like, what ride am I on anymore, because of the four or five filler feeling episodes, that it just really marred the impact.

Ben 

I agree with you there, especially when it comes to Love getting to act later on. I find myself very frustrated with this show's unwillingness to let Sun be mad for more than half an episode. I need, like, a really good boil for a character. I need somebody to be irritated as fuck. I really like when somebody's just fucking pissed about some shit that somebody did. A lot of these shows, I have found from GMMTV, really struggle with that. They're constantly worried about selling ship. So they don't want the characters to be upset with each other for very long. 

But it means that Sun doesn't really feel very human for me. She has such a super delayed reaction to Ongsa's big lie that I was just not exactly feeling her shift. I was just kinda like, okay, I guess. We shoulda done this a couple of weeks ago, but whatever, at least we're sorta getting it now.

I don't, also, understand—why is everyone here? What is the point of AJ's character, Ton? Why is Euro in this if he's not gonna score with one of the twins? Why is Ford here? What was the point of this little gay boy subplot that they put in this? I don't know what they were going for here.

NiNi 

Going back to the Sun thing, I think that the idea they were trying to get across was that Sun was burying a lot of things that then came out in this well of frustration. Part of her character is to be this nice, sweet girl. And nice, sweet girls, they let things go. I feel like that's what they wanted to do with her character, but I don't feel like they wrote her character in that way. The character doesn't feel like a character who is burying things. The character feels like a character who has let things go.

And then with all the other stuff that was happening, because there was so much coming at us. There was this whole idea of Alpha being the big sister and the pressures that that put on her. There was this idea of the teachers feeling pressured to do the best that they could by these students. There was whatever was going on with AJ's character. I have no idea what that was about. And that little runner with AJ's character and Earn's character, Charoen and Ton, I still have no idea what any of that was about.

Ginny 

No idea.

Ben 

I don't like it! That's for damn sure.

[Ginny laughs]

NiNi 

Did not like it. No clue what it was about. AJ, you need to call your agent because they're not doing well by you this year.

There's just all this churn happening in the middle of the story that has nothing to do with what happened before, nothing to do with what's happening after, all is coming out of the blue. But in another show would have really worked, like the Alpha stuff, the big sister stressed out stuff. 

There is a way in which that could have worked, but they didn't really put any emphasis on that sisterly relationship between Ongsa, Aylin, and Alpha and how that might have been altered by the fact that Ongsa and Alpha have been living apart because Ongsa has been living in Phuket with their dad and Alpha has been living in Bangkok with their mom and now the family's back together. What does that look like, now having to take care of your little sister again when you had gotten unaccustomed to doing that? The whole fact that Alyn is their cousin who's living with them. Why is she living with them? What does this mean? How is she integrating into the family? None of that stuff is really touched on. It's a little bit touched on, but not really. It feels like they wanted to tackle Alpha as a character and all these stresses that she feels, but they're not actually showing us the stresses. So it feels like it comes out of nowhere. 

And then everything that happens with Euro's character and Ford's character—just excise that from the show. Why is it even there? Why are they there? Why did they get out of bed and come to set? Somebody explain that to me.

Ben 

Every single week I was like, “Here's how Euro can still win.”

[Ben and Ginny laugh]

Ginny 

To be clear, because this confused me for a while, for Ben, Euro winning is not Euro getting a love interest. Euro winning is Euro being with AJ, specifically.

Ben 

He just needs to kiss one of the twins and I'll be satisfied.

NiNi 

We are big Euro lovers on this podcast. We think he's a great actor who has been overlooked and underutilized and we want to see him win in every way possible. Every way, including getting to kiss whoever he wants—boys, girls, whatever. Let him have it.

Ben 

It always feels like it comes back to ship when it comes to GMMTV. If we wanted to do an Alpha focus episode, we need to open with her as the viewpoint character and narrator for an episode, and focus on Alpha and how she's seeing all of this going on with everything else she's juggling. Alpha is struggling with not being able to understand how to help her sister or her cousin when she can see they're both having big trouble, even as she's trying to make sure they get fed, go to school on time. And she's also trying to get ready for college and she's just freaking the fuck out, like this has the potential to be really good. But it just ends up not feeling that way. 

It doesn't feel like they weren't planning this show it just feels maybe over planned? I'm not really certain. It's a weird experience watching the show and trying to talk about it. You feel like you're being tickled at the back of your head the whole time, trying to follow what the fuck is going on and where this shit is building to.

Ginny 

It feels like they had a really powerful brainstorming phase and then did not carry on to the pruning and organizing. They were like, yeah, and Ciize’s character is gonna have this stress arc, and the teachers are gonna have a romance, and Euro’s gonna have a romance, and AJ is gonna be there.

NiNi

I'm just so mad at you saying AJ's gonna be there. Like, there’s nothing else going on with AJ. He’s just gonna be present. 

Ginny 

You cannot deny that he was there. He was in this show.

NiNi 

He was very there. He was present.

Ben

It very much feels like there were some really powerful single statements they put on the board. Somebody wrote, like, “Big boys need love, too.” And everybody was like, “Hell yeah!” And then they didn't know what to do with it. [Ben laughs]

Ginny 

Right, exactly! It's frustrating!

Ben 

That is the adjective for this show. Frustrating.

NiNi 

I feel like this show had some really clear-eyed ideas at the start, though, and that's the thing that really stresses me out about it. At the start, I feel like they're connecting Mawin's feelings of not feeling good enough and isolation to Ongsa's feelings of not feeling good enough. I feel like that was where they wanted to go with it, but in the end they don't actually go anywhere with it. And I feel like they thought that they were making that parallel all the way to the end with that one and I just didn't see it. There's just so much that the show feels like it really thought it was nailing, like all the Aylin stuff. 

I really enjoyed that idea of Aylin feeling alienated from everybody and not because necessarily of any lack of love or anything from them, just feeling like she doesn't understand them and she needs them to work to be more understood by her rather than her necessarily having to do certain kinds of work to be more understood by them. That give and take. I feel like the show had that idea in the beginning, but then by the end, Luna is pushing Alyin to be more social. And I'm like, but I thought that we understood at the beginning when you were on the rooftop telling her you're not a human, you're a moon, that you understood what needed to happen here. But now you're pushing her to be more social? Like, why? It didn't feel like it connected.

Ginny 

That frustrated me a lot about them because I was really loving what they were doing with Aylin and that kind of acceptance between her and Luna. There's a way to do a, “Now let me help you do some of the social things that you felt unable to do. Let me work with you.” But they simply did not frame it so that it felt like something Aylin wanted. So it comes off just feeling like Luna says, “Well, now we're a couple, so I'm gonna make you be normal.” That's what that sequence felt like to me and that's the thing that soured me on their story. I really hated that.

Ben 

I think my favorite Aylin moment was her taking her own advice and then sending the little letter to Luna.

NiNi 

I liked any moment where it felt like Aylin had a revelation by watching somebody else or the way that other people were interacting doing something, whether or not she agreed with it, and then internalizing that and deciding how she would tackle something like that and then doing it. I like to watch that thought process work with Aylin. But I think at some point, Aylin went from somebody that the narrative was trying to understand to somebody that the narrative was trying to change. And I did not like that.

I love View, I think View is a phenomenal actress. Towards the end of the story, to me, it felt a little bit like she had checked out from the character.

00:33:42 23.5: Final Arc and Ratings

Ben 

I think that's the show. There were a lot of ideas that we were like, hey, this is a good idea. Ope, and it's gone.

NiNi 

We didn't even talk about the final arc with Sun going abroad. The final arc of this show did not connect to anything else, and it tried to tell me things about Sun as a character that had not been laid out in any way before. I feel like they tried to give Love something to do, but they also didn't really trust her with it. And I don't know why, because Love is a good actress. The bits that we see from her where they actually give her something to do in the show, she really nails it on. So why don't they trust her? 

The show just. it's kind of messy, that's not to say that I did not enjoy a great deal of it. The first major arc, maybe up to episode six or seven I feel like that is pretty solid.

Ben 

An evergreen comment about Thai BL.

[Ben and Ginny laugh]

NiNi

Not just Thai BL lately, boo boo. It feels like all of it. We've had some of these problems in Japan lately, too. And I think we've been talking about Korea in this way, as well. Instead of just writing the story from beginning to end, I feel like these writers are getting very excited and trying to do a lot and trying to be like, “Ooh, what can we do that's new and interesting?” How about you just write the story from beginning to the end? That would be fantastic. Thailand is, yes, guilty, but it's been a consistent critique that we've been having across shows, across countries this year. 

All of that said, let's rate this. Ginny, let's start with you. What did you rate 23.5?

Ginny 

I gave it a 7.5. There were some things that I really did like a lot, so I didn't wanna take it too low, but it just really failed to cohere into a good overall show.

NiNi 

Ben?

Ben 

Before I give my rating. Normally when I'm giving you all ratings it's on the scale of, is this worth your time to watch? I will say politically, you should stream 23.5. It is very important that the juice makers know that we want GL. You don't have to watch it. You should stream it. This is not the show that I wanted, but we do need to support this one. 

That being said, I gave the show a 6.5. I don't think this show is genuinely worth putting a shit ton of engagement into. This is not an experience I will be returning to. I don't think the show was very good. The positive things we felt on the front end about how well Milk captured young queer disaster, these are the good things to take with you. But please, please do better.

NiNi 

I slot in right between the two of you. I gave the show a 7. I do think the front end of this was really good. I liked all of the performances, even the ones that I felt that weren't entirely up there, that was more a function of the writing not being there to support what the actor or actress could do. I enjoyed Milk as Ongsa so much, all the way from beginning to end. All that together for me adds up to a 7. It's good enough, but I have some serious reservations about some of the writing.

So, I think that makes me as the person in the middle the actual score for 23.5. So it gets a 7 from The Conversation by the law of averages. It is worth your time from the standpoint of being the first GMMTV GL. It's worth your time from the standpoint of just watching Milk kill this character. Just be aware that the writing falls apart right after the midpoint.

Ben 

It may be GMMTV's first GL, but let's be clear, it's not GMMTV's first lesbians.

GMMTV has had lesbians since they started fucking around with gay people. There were lesbians in SOTUS. There were lesbians in Friendzone and Friendzone: Dangerous Area.

NiNi 

There were lesbians in Dangerous Romance, technically.

Ben 

Wait, what? Were there?

NiNI

We just talked about this!

Ben

Oh man, I blocked that out. [Ginny laughs] I forgot about the teacher plot! Because I was distracted about the knowledge that a windmill—

[all laugh]

NiNi 

And, moving on.

00:38:42 Only Boo

NiNi 

Alright, let's move on to the next show that we're gonna talk about, which is Only Boo. 

Ben, what is Only Boo about?

Ben 

How a gay boy inside of the bubble must remain trapped there, else he'd be forced to face the realities of the cruel homophobic world we live in.

Only Boo is a high school BL from GMMTV about a plucky kid whose mom is a member of the entertainment industry, who has huge aspirations of becoming an idol. He wants to become an idol so bad that he's bailing on classes and exams so he can go to auditions and his mom has had enough of that little kid's shit. So she sends his ass to the countryside to the school she went to so he can get his shit together and graduate from high school. Once he gets there, the very first thing this boy does is spend 500 goddamn dollars on a bike and has no fucking money and gets a—

[Ginny laughs]

NiNi 

I just knew that you were going up—that you were gonna go there in the very beginning. [all laugh] It is actually an important plot point, people, but it is still ridiculous.

Ben 

He has no money and basically gets adopted by the son of the restaurant near his hotel, who also serves food at their school. He's having a little bit of difficulty adjusting but ends up being very fond of the son of the restaurant owner and eventually befriends two other boys who also want to become idols. He is an incredibly fun character to watch, his name is Moo. He's clearly never once thought that people might not like him for being queer and is just so unabashedly joyous about what he loves in his life. He spends the bulk of the first two thirds of the show pursuing Kang, the boy who is helping him, before transitioning to Bangkok to become an idol. 

Complications ensue! Book is there. 

[all laugh]

NiNi 

All right, Ben let me come to you first with this one. What were some of your initial thoughts coming into this show?

Ben 

I gotta be honest, I had, like, my similar reaction to My School President on the front end. [laughs] I was like, I don't know who these boys are and I don't care. No new friends. [Ginny and NiNi laugh] It took me a while to warm up to Keen and Sea and that's not their fault. I'm just older and struggle with new actors. 

But I actually ended up really liking Moo a lot really early. It was interesting watching, like, a modern queer kid. Modern queer youth is really fascinating to me. I've talked about this before, like nobody teaches queer people their history. They have to go find other queer people who teach them their history. And so you end up with this thing a lot where a lot of the baby gays, they know fucking nothing. And Moo is a good example of that in a lot of ways. And it feels like his family has sheltered him because they probably clocked who he was really early and they don't want to talk about that sort of stuff with him. So he feels no shame about being queer. He feels no, like, maybe I should dial it back because people don't like or understand that shit. He's like, nah, I like that boy. And I know he liked me, too! 

I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed the performances with the sides ‘cause they got—what's his name—they paired him with Aun. 

NiNi 

Ashi?

Ben

Yeah. He's pretty solid. I actually like him. And I really thought he did a good job with gay yearning in the early parts of this show. I had a good time. I really also like the teachers in this. I was a teacher for about four years. And I thought that the way they presented the educators in the show was really well done. They were not cool at all, but they were really committed to their jobs. And they treated these kids with stern respect. They weren't like up these kids' asses all the time about unnecessary shit. But Moo was a half step away from being a delinquent for most of the show. And they were very big on applying foot to ass for that boy to make sure he got his shit together. 

I really enjoyed a lot of the early parts of the show. I thought the baseline cast chemistry across the board was really solid. I thought the actors worked really well together in almost every scene���whether I thought those scenes were the right call from a writing standpoint is another thing, but everybody seemed to understand why they were there

NiNi 

Ginny, how about you?

Ginny 

I don't like fluff in general, I won't seek it out. So I went into this one like, well, we'll see how I feel. Because it was clearly a very cute, fluffy kind of premise and cutesy high energy vibe. And I ended up so charmed by especially Keen's performance as Moo, but really both of them together, Sea and Keen, worked really well together and were written really nicely. 

We noted that it's the same writing team as Cooking Crush had. It did feel similar to Cooking Crush that we've started getting a little bit more sincerity and kindness from characters in how they have their kind of awkward first encounters and back and forth where they're trying to figure out, “Do I like you, do you like me, how do we navigate that?” There was so much sweetness and honesty in how they each approached each other and, like, genuine decency that I found really refreshing. So I was so charmed by this show, beyond my expectations, and really very into it for two thirds of its run.

NiNi 

I love Moo so much as a character. I was not planning on watching this show. As with a lot of the shows that I've ended up watching lately, I have had to eat my words. I started watching it sort of on a whim. I didn't have anything else to do, and by the end of the first episode I was entirely charmed by Moo.

He's just so alive as a character. Keen plays him really, really well. That sense of, not Devil May Care exactly, but boundless optimism. There is no indication anywhere in his affect that he has ever heard the word no despite the fact that he hears it all the time. [laughs] And I find that truly delightful. I find characters who are able to get a no, keep it moving and be like, “I am going to turn this no into a yes, but you don't know that yet.” I like that kind of energy and optimism, particularly in a character who is so young, because that's the kind of character who should have that energy and optimism. The kind of character who hasn't had their heart broken before.

I enjoyed Moo and Kang and how the attraction, the interest was instantaneous and mutual. Because one of the things that I was scared of going into this show was that it would be all about Moo being pushy and harassing Kang, but it was clear from the very beginning that whatever was going on here was entirely a hundred percent mutual and they were both very into what was happening.

I enjoyed Aun and Ashi as Payos and Potae despite me having major reservations about their storyline, but we'll get into that. I enjoyed the first, two thirds of this show immensely. Everything that happened with the high school story. And when I say enjoyed, not just from a standpoint of delight, but enjoyed from the standpoint of this writing makes sense. And these characters make sense and everything that is happening here makes sense. And then, it stopped making sense but before we get there…

Is there a before we get there? What else are we talking about before we get to the turn?

Ginny 

We've given Milk a lot of love and I do want to give her a bit more because she was also in this as a side character playing a completely different person from Ongsa, and also was just so fun to watch in every scene. Give Milk more work. I wanna see her in everything.

Ben 

I will give Milk a compliment as a backhand to the other people. [Ginny laughs] I understand why Milk was here. Why was everyone else?

NiNi (50:46)

Oh my god. [laughs] I also liked Milk as Neth. I enjoyed her characterization. I liked the kind of friend that Neth was to Kang. I enjoyed everything about her right up until a weird thing that happened in the last episode. I think she was delightful. 

Ben 

I'll say this about the Neth character. Neth is always timed well for whenever Kang's caution makes him back off of Moo, and she's very good about making him confront his own feelings so that he can take a step forward. She's used extremely well for that so that the development of the boys’ romance never feels stilted

00:48:06 Only Boo: Popping the Bubble

NiNi 

I guess now it's time to flip the script. Ginny, what did you not like here? How did the trajectory of the show go for you?

Ginny 

So around episode 9, we switch from high school to where Moo is starting to get to live his idol dreams. And Kang has overcome some of his own stuckness that he was in before Moo showed up to go to art school in Bangkok. Very exciting.

Then… they made so many choices around the idol storyline. You know that there's gonna be an issue of him being an idol and dating. That's gotta be part of it with a show like this and with the story set up like this. And I was excited to see that. And every choice they made made me less and less excited. I was feeling real shaky by the end of episode 10. Episode 11, I thought was abysmal, I hated everything they did. And episode 12 was like, now I understand what you were trying to do, but you did it so badly. The final arc simply collapsed on itself.

NiNi 

Some of the seeds of the final arc were sown early on, particularly the Shone character. That character from the very beginning just did not sit right, but the final arc actively offended me. The whole idol arc for me, it was not the wave. They should not have done it. And the reason that they should not have done it is that they weren't intending to do anything meaningful with it. 

There are so many ways that you can do an idol story. It's not even that there had to be any one way that the story went. Idols and relationships, there are so many ways to do that story. The way that they chose was quite possibly the most offensive to me, first of all because it didn't make any sense, and then secondly in the end because it didn't matter and it didn't have anything to say about the idol system at all.

It happened. Moo was sad for a year. And then he got back together with Kang and he went and he said, “I don't wanna sign this stupid no dating anybody contract anymore.” And they just went, “Okay.” What was the point of the last four episodes if it was gonna be this easy? One thing I don't like is you spend a lot of narrative and thematic time on something that in the end is solved easily.

Ben, I know you've been holding back.

Ben 

This show is the end of my ability to tolerate bubble shows from GMMTV. I have an appreciation for the bubble, because I grew up in queer cinema. A lot of queer creators are dealing with a lot of grief and a lot of pain, and this comes through in a lot of the art. And so, this fictional space where homophobia is not an issue and boys can just moon after each other and everyone giggles and tee-hees until they get together can be a nice emotional break from that reality. But the problem I'm having with the GMMTV shows at this point is they are not just staying in the bubble. They keep alluding to the real world where homophobia is a real problem and then intentionally not dealing with that.

This thing they did in the show where Moo doesn't even know, like, the word gay exists or whatever, but Kang feels like he's had to deal with some internalized homophobia. But no he hasn't, his mom's totally cool. But then why is he like this? There was this interesting bit with Kang when they moved to Bangkok, where they're gonna be sharing an apartment together and Moo wanted to be intimate with him, and you could feel like Kang wanted to be intimate with him too, but was shy or nervous about it and didn't want to proceed with it. When you've been in the closet for a long time, actually doing something with someone is awkward and kind of nerve wracking, particularly when they're so confident the way Moo is. And I don't feel like we ever really got any resolution on that. And it feels like the show was only having him be shy because they wanted to time certain things out. 

That's one of the many gay frustrations I have with this show, where there's this interesting thing that feels very gay that the show then does absolutely nothing with, or tells us we were wrong about. Like, I sensed early on that some of Kang's reticence about being queer may have come from his mom. Apparently I misread that, whatever. It also bugs me that they won't tell Moo, like, you can't be an out idol, bro. But then fangirls are shipping Louis's character, Jang, with Pyos later on. Like, you can't have shipping culture and then not address where queer people slot into that. 

The very worst gay offense that this show created was having Moo bond with Payos, particularly over clocking Payos's crush on Potae, and then later on, for whatever reason, Moo decides to make Potae his confidant when he has to go into the closet, and not Payos. I don't understand how Payos, being the first other queer he bonded with that he wasn't trying to fuck, is not the person that he trusts with something important. And this was particularly hurtful for me, because Moo lets Payos think that he's gotten over Kang and has broken up with him after this huge “I'm gonna be with this man” arc. Like how lonely must have Payos felt at that moment? He was already struggling with his feelings that he might never get to be with Potae and then Moo, the strongest gay he knows, is like, I guess I gotta get over Kang, ‘cause you know, we gotta make that paper, bro. It is what it is.

I'm just so disappointed in that. And then there's the whole shit with Shone. Why make your cousin's boyfriend break up with him and then hit on your cousin's boyfriend that you made break up with him that you know he still loves? I was so disgusted with those last two things that it has forever soured the show for me.

NiNi 

The Shone stuff for me was particularly heinous. I am an elder sibling and I'm also a big cousin. To betray that big cousin trust, I couldn't fathom doing that to any of my little cousins.

I felt like Shone had no rights at that point. It's one thing when he initially develops this crush on Kang. He didn't know. Fine. Once you know, how do you do that? To me that breaks all the codes, you just don't do that, that's not a thing that you do. It's wicked, it's cruel, it's mean, absolutely unacceptable. And that was where the show really truly offended me.

The Potae and Payos stuff, Payos somehow going from being Moo's confidant to being on the outside while Potae gets to be on the inside, that didn't sit right with me, but the Shone stuff was really just egregious. I could not stomach it.

Ben 

And they made Moo apologize to him. I will never forgive them for that. I will never forgive them for making Moo apologize.

Ginny 

What the fuck was that with Shone? They had this moment earlier where I thought, okay, this is how we're resolving this. We're leading up to a big issue, but then we're gonna have them settle it by being kind and decent to each other and this cousin loyalty thing. Well, it's a little weird that you felt the need to do that at all, but okay, I like where we landed on this. And then they just have him so fully backstab. 

Purely from a narrative construction perspective, what we said we all love about Moo is he's so confident and so sure that, kind of, the world can't touch him. He's gonna get what he wants, and he makes it work and he makes it charming. He's very lovable in this kind of bullheaded determination mixed with sunny optimism. There were ways to then have him have a rude awakening that would have made sense in the story. Instead, what they did was they have, like, three people talk to Kang behind his back, and guilt trip the kid into breaking up with his boyfriend, And then do the no contact one year time skip, because God forbid we ever do anything different. 

If you want to give me an idol story and talk to me about the problems of idols dating, what if you have them actually deal with any of those challenges? I would not have minded if the story was leading to the company saying, “You know what, this is a bad outdated rule for XYZ reasons. We've seen this”. I wouldn't have even minded if it took them a year to get there. That's fine. But the way they did it was just much too easy, no conflict. Moo was just like, “I'm gonna talk to them.” And then he talked to them and it turned out they were already going to do the right thing. And I'm like, why? Make it interesting. Give me a story about that. Don't just do weird convoluted chasing and pining and this cousin backstabbing situation for an episode and a half. It didn't work on any level.

00:58:42 Only Boo: If You're Gonna Do An Idol Story, Commit

Ben 

This is the umpteenth GMMTV show where the poor kid has to upend their whole life for the benefit of the rich kid. And I'm over it. Kang must suffer so that Moo can succeed at being an idol. This is a very weird, specific thematic beat that this company's shows always go to. And I really, truly do not like it.

NiNi 

That was part of the issue, but the thing that really stuck out for me is that this is GMMTV that did this show. GMMTV is an idol house. That's what they are. Let's just be real. They create idols, they teach them to act and sing and dance and they put them out there in concerts and they sell fan meetings and they sell merch. They are an idol house. And what this show feels like, is that they did not want to catch any blowback from being an idol house. They were in a unique position as an idol house to have something, anything to say about this system. Whether they were trying to defend the system, whether they wanted to upend the system, whether they wanted to make a statement of any kind about the system that they participate in.

And they did none of those things. They gave some wishy-washy idea of, yes, we know that this is maybe probably bad, but we don't do this. It feels so disingenuous. It feels like they are trying to be like, oh, don't look over here. I'm not saying that they needed to take a moralistic position on this. I'm just saying that they needed to take a position, period. They could have taken a cynical position on this. They could have been like, this is where the money is. They could have taken an apologetic position on this, they could have taken so many different directions on a story like this depending on what it is that they wanted to say. And I might have been pissed with some of those directions but I, in the end would have been like, okay that's their position.

Ginny 

I will give, like, half a thimble full of credit for the end line being, “Oh yeah, this idols can't date rule is bullshit and we should get rid of it.” I was gonna feel even madder if it ended with Moo ending his contract because you can't be an idol and be in love and the story being fine with that.

At least they gave a momentary lip service to the, yeah, we don't do that. The other half of my half a thimble full of credit is that we have seen one of their BL actors go very public with a girlfriend and it seems like he was supported by the company in that. So, okay, presumably a little bit of their money is where the tiniest whisper of their mouth is, I guess. But yes, they should have said something. They're in the position to really tell a story about this. They should have said something. If they're gonna do this. they should have done it.

Ben 

Bestie, I respect your ability to give them half of a thimble of credit, I will be giving them nothing because they made the show. They put this in front of us. They're the ones who spent the whole fuckin’ show making us question whether or not Moo as he is could be an idol. I'm not giving them credit.

NiNi 

I feel like I slot in somewhere in the middle. More maybe towards the side of being pissed and it really comes down to the whole Payos story. After the one year time skip he's being shipped with Jang. At the end of the story there's a Potae/Payos ship that they're talking about. And at no point is there any indication that Moo is suffering because this is not quote unquote allowed but somehow whatever is going on with the Payos stuff, we're gonna lean into that. For me, if you make a statement on that, then yes, I give you the credit, but you just put it there and you don't say anything about it. 

Television as a medium exists at the nexus of art and commerce. Television doesn't exist without commerce. It's not like film, where people do it for the love. Television doesn't get put out if there's no money in it. Let's just be real about what TV is. The fact that this show is so mealy-mouthed about saying that, about accepting that that is where it sits. I just don't like it. The art commerce thing for me, I sit with it, I'm usually fine. I can usually look at a show and be like, okay, I can see where they did this for the love and where they did this for the money.

It's why I don't have a whole bunch of trouble with the branded pairing thing. My trouble with the branded pairing thing is always when it doesn't align with what the show is trying to do. But the whole act of casting branded pairs in things, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And I prefer to look at the branded pair thing, as, okay, well, in which way did this pair work for this set of rules and in which way did it not? As opposed to being pissed at the branded pair thing, because that's just, the price of the ride. 

But this one, it just bugged me, man. I felt like if you're gonna be so self-referential about the industry that you are in, that you have to make some kind of statement on it [laughs] one way or another. This show just didn't, and I didn't like that.

01:05:06 Only Boo: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

As I said in the Japan episode, telling stories about queer experiences in a respectful way is non-negotiable for me in a genre profiting off of people's titillation about seeing boys kiss each other. I don't think that's an unreasonable position to hold. So, as much as I love Moo as a character, and as much as I liked all of the bits we got to talk about early on in this show, this show fails as a queer narrative in a way that is unsettling, often annoying, and in some ways kinda harmful. And I can't pretend like that's okay.

NiNi

Let's rate. Ginny, what are we rating Only Boo?

Ginny 

Oh, I think I'm coming in a lot higher than you two, probably. I did really like the first two thirds and I think I was not as offended by the end. So I gave it a 7.

NiNi 

Ben, how about you?

Ben 

One of the downsides of me having basically a bad time with global BL since Cooking Crush and Cherry Magic Thailand ended, is I'm now starting to weight endings higher. This is not fun. It is making the ability to watch these shows week to week with other people unfun. The shows start fun and we're like, hell yeah, this is a fun show. And then by around episode eight or nine, we're in various stages of grief [NiNi laughs] and they don't finish strong. We don't get to feel triumphant at the end. We don't get to lift that fish out of the stream and be like, we got dinner tonight, boys! And I'm over pretending that the idea of the show is better than the reality of the show. 

As a result, Only Boo gets a 5.

NiNi 

I am, I think once again, splitting the difference. Because I did have a good time for the first eight episodes of this show. I was offended by the last two. A bad ending can ruin a show for me. It does not always, but it can ruin a show for me.

But throughout the entire show from end to end, I have to say, that throughline of Moo and Kang and their relationship. I just believed them so much. Even when the show is crashing down around them, they are somehow holding together that love story, and making me believe in it.

I want to give it a 6 but I think I'm going to end up at a 6.5 just for that. Moo and Kang and the Moo and Kang love story and Sea and Keen as Moo and Kang are so good.

So what does that leave us? 5, 6.5, 7, what does that one go to? Like a 6.25. I don't know. What is maths? 

Ginny 

We can call it a 6.

NiNi

I'm a whole engineer and I can't do maths.

Ben 

We can call it a 6. I'm calling producer privilege. This show pissed me off for gay reasons and I'm not gonna pretend that the romance makes up for pissing me off for gay reasons.

NiNi

Okay, it's a 6 from The Conversation.

01:08:45 Outro: High School Blues

NiNi 

I wanna talk a little bit about these two shows just from the sense of both of them as high school shows, but also in the sense of them being shows that started out well and did pretty well through maybe half to two thirds of their run and then faltered at the end. When it comes to high school shows, as we have indicated before, we don't actually get as many of them as we think from Thailand.

Ginny

For me, the high school of it all is not the core of either show's problem. That's sort of incidental to just not having a clear understanding of the story it was telling. Did some very charming work with some very charming actors and scenes, but simply got lost at some point along the way.

NiNi 

My overall thinking about these two shows and where they landed for me is I don't know what Thailand wanted to say about high school in these shows or if they wanted to say anything about high school or if high school is just an incidental setting for these shows. What do they want to say about people on the cusp of growing up? What is it they want to say about the high school experience? I feel like that's not something that either of these shows was particularly interested in. Maybe to some extent more 23.5 was interested in it than Only Boo.

Ginny 

23.5 was a high school show and I think one of the big ideas that they wrote on the board was some stuff about high school social dynamics that they occasionally highlighted and then completely forgot about for episodes at a time.

Ben 

The big problem both of these shows have is they don't understand that the crux of a high school show is about growing up, and about how you can't go backwards anymore. The kids have to recognize that properly for the first time. I think both shows are trying to get there, but I think in almost every case, they get lost in the shipping of it all and not in the story that they need to tell. 

Almost all of these characters have broken arcs about growing up. Their energy is not focused on the proper culmination of the individual character arcs. They're focused exclusively on the romance arcs, and they believe that the resolution of these romance arcs is a good substitute for the resolution of their individual arcs. And it really frustrates me watching both of these shows not really landing on a good place about what it means to grow up. Which is for me, what is at the core of high school stories. Let's go back to The Breakfast Club and start over.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi 

Not The Breakfast Club!

Ben 

I do not feel positively about either of these shows and I'm not righteous about it. I am disappointed and really frustrated. This is not a great place to be with the genre.

I don't know what's going on, everybody. I think we all need to take a good six month sabbatical. Let's have a beach episode as a whole genre, go plant some trees [NiNi laughs] and go to the beach and hang out for a bit and then come back and work on some stuff. We all need a break. It feels like people are stretched really thin. I don't know what's going on, but this is feeling like a global issue at this point. The initial ideas are good, but the execution is not. And then it ends on a flat note or an unsatisfying note.

I am a critic. Talking about stuff with people is more than half of the fun. Watching the show alone by myself is not the bulk of my enjoyment with a piece of media. My real fun with a piece of media is when I finish something and I'm gonna go annoy the nearest person to me. It's like, “Hey, it's time for you to watch something.” [NiNi laughs] That's what's fun for me.

These shows are not giving me that outlet. I don't get to share that with people who aren't BL fanatics like us. Sharing art with people is how I connect to people. And I can't share most of our shows [laughs] with normies because they're like, “This is bad. Why did you show this to me?”

NiNi 

See, that's the difference between you and me. I gave up on the normies a long time ago.

Ben 

I really want the people who watch Young Royals and Heartstopper to connect with BL. So when they finish those shows, be like, what else is there? I'm like, we got the list, girl. It's right here! But like, that list is not growing this year! We need fresh content for the list!

NiNi 

I mean, there is quite a backlog, so I feel like, if they need to take a break, I will understand. 

Ben 

They should take a break. It is summer. Everybody go to a beach. Get some sun.Go have an encounter with a hot stranger. Get your mind right, and then come back. 

We gotta take a break ‘cause this is not working. I haven't been this grumpy since 2018.

NiNi

You are grumpy right now, bestie. 

Ben 

It's not good! We can split hairs and talk about what these shows did good or bad, but in the end, are we saying people should go out and watch these shows earnestly? No. Okay.

NiNi 

We gotta wrap this up. So, that is going to do it for us on the GMMTV School Days episode. We out. Say bye to the people, Ginny.

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben 

Peace!