#How To Save A Relationship After Having A Bab

[casscainmainly]

This is not really anything coherent but I was thinking about Cass and Shiva's trip in the water in Batgirl (2024) #6:

And how water, particularly drowning, is associated with parenthood and relationships for Cass. Here, her drowning, and her choice to take Shiva's hand, symbolises their distant relationship (Shiva on land while Cass is in the water) and how she has to decide whether to trust Shiva's actions or not. She does - she takes Shiva's hand, which foreshadows the ending of this issue where Cass accepts their mother-daughter relationship and the "ties that bind" them.

This calls back to Batgirl (2000) #50, where Cass and Bruce plunge into the water after their fight:

Bruce and Cass enter the water together - even when they're fighting (like they were in this issue), they're in sync. And they choose to bend towards each other, achieving the contact that Cass longed for from David Cain (Horrocks-era David at least). They then both rise out of the water together, signifying they've both learned/accepted something about each other: Bruce is seeing her for who she is, not who he wants her to be, and Cass is learning how to love and be loved by Bruce without subsuming herself in him. After this Bruce and Cass never have a serious fight again, and it's a nice development after Bruce's earlier behaviour and misunderstandings.

With Babs, the water moment is a bit less focal but still poignant:

Batgirl (2000) #52

Babs, under the spell of Poison Ivy's garden, attacks Cass and pushes her into the water. Cass manages to rescue her, and after Babs comes to her senses she apologises to Cass and they hug. It's a snapshot of what's to come in their relationship, where Babs hurts Cass by calling her stupid. This moment is full of the pain Babs has caused Cass, but also their closeness; this panel of them looking at each other is just so good, and they're so intimate throughout this. And it ends with a loving hug. They've been separated a lot, but at the end of the day they always find a way back to each other.

David Cain is the only one who doesn't have a moment like this. If anything, he's associated with the air - from Cass jumping out a window with him in her first appearance to stargazing, it's more about the sky for him and Cass. So it's no surprise his big moment happens in the rain:

It's just so interesting to see the differences. Shiva saves Cass, Bruce and Cass both swim up together, Cass saves Babs, and Cass fails to save David. Cass' failure to save David symbolises that their relationship isn't one that can be salvaged, no matter how much either of them still love or care about each other. What David did to Cass is unforgivable; they will never have a moment like the rest.

The water motif of course also ties into Cass' relationship with Stephanie, with 2/3 death hallucinations occurring in the water (and the first one is particularly important, since Cass' decision to live is directly tied to her swimming out of the ocean). But that could be a post for another day, I just think it's cool to see how water figures as a prominent symbol in a lot of Cass' relationships!

[tj-is-down]

Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy (Tyler Owens x Reader)

Back again with another random fic for y'all. This is not proofread, so don't hate me!

Summary: Tyler and the reader have been on and off "together" for years now, keeping it secret. Until, suddenly, one of them decides they might want more.

Word count: ~2.1k

Warnings: None except some swearing, and reader is described femininely in this one.

Here’s the thing about Humble Creek: everybody knows everybody. A small town made up of just under five thousand, there was nothing that anybody could do in secret, because if one person knew, then it was just as if they’d taken a bullhorn and announced it to the entire town.

Which made Y/N’s life all the harder. See, she did have a secret, and although it hadn’t gotten out yet, its secrecy was held in the hands of a monster. A tyrant, a tool, a pain-in-the-ass douchebag with a cowboy hat and a Texas accent.

Tyler Owens.

Y/N had known he was trouble since they were kids. Growing up on rival ranches, they were destined to be enemies, and even more so, to blur the lines. Y/N had never trusted him. Not because their families were constantly fighting, as she believed everybody deserved their own chance to prove themself, but because he had fucked his up, royally. 

In elementary school, middle school, high school, Tyler was always the talk of the town. Always with a girl on his arm, Tyler was confident, and everybody else was just putty in his hands. Y/N told herself she didn’t understand what people saw in him. 

She lied.

It started in eighth grade, when Tyler showed up in a too-big tux and a bouquet of flowers he’d handpicked from his family’s garden.

“You wanna go to the dance?” He asked, grinning cockily. Even then he knew how to charm, before he even knew what charm was.

Y/N’s dad had said no, absolutely no way, but Y/N was in her rebellious phase and so this only pushed her to say yes. She went out right then, in her mud-stained t-shirt and jeans, and they’d walked to the school together at seven p.m. and walked home together at nine. He’d kissed her cheek goodnight and she’d wiped it off, embarrassed.

“You’re annoying, Owens.”

“And you’re pretty, L/N.”

On the next Monday he came to school with Cherry Lee.

Y/N tried to be mad. She tried to hate Tyler, to swear that she’d never talk to him or think about him or even look at him ever again. But two months later, when Tyler and Cherry broke up, he’d knocked on her door when he knew her parents weren’t home and, against her better judgment, she’d let him inside.

They’d been on-and-off “together” ever since.

Now, Tyler wasn’t single for long intervals, usually just a couple of weeks here and there, and he would never cheat, nor would Y/N let herself become a homewrecker (no matter how fragile the relationship), but when Tyler showed up on her doorstep, bouquet in hands and that look in his eyes, she knew she couldn’t say no. 

She was an adult now, but still, she couldn’t resist those eyes. Tyler had been single since before leaving for college, and when he came back it was like he’d never left. Sure, now he had a truck, a big name, a crew, and a YouTube channel, but he still had those eyes, and his family still had a garden with a never-ending supply of flowers.

He showed up on her door one morning, after her parents had left for church.

“Can I help you?” She asked, opening the door. As always, a t-shirt and jeans, dirty from the morning’s work on the farm.

“You’re not at church?”

“You knew I wouldn’t be.”

“Well, maybe the two and I can practice praying on our own? I think the first step is kneeling down; you wanna start?”

Y/N went to close the door, but Tyler’s hand reached out to prop it open.

“Come on, Darlin’,” he said, laying the accent on thick. “You want to go for a drive? I’ll buy you a coffee.”

“Hold the coffee,” she said, walking past him. “I’d rather not have anyone see us together.”

He grabbed her waist and stood behind her, kissing her neck. “We’ve been doing this for years, babe. No one’s gonna find out, I promise.”

She leaned her head towards him, breathing in the scent of firewood mixed with his cologne. He pressed a kiss to her forehead.

“You gettin’ sappy on me?” He asked. Though his voice was soft, she could feel his smirk.

“Nope.” She pulled out of his grasp and got into the passenger seat of his truck. “We going, or are you just gonna stand there looking all doe-eyed?”

“For you, I’d stand here all day, sweetheart.”

“Just get in the car, Romeo.”

“Yes, ma’am.”

*** 

They drove for a while, to the outskirts of town, when Tyler stopped the truck and leaned over. He kissed her lips, hard and slow, putting his hand on the back of her neck to pull her closer. She reciprocated, holding his bicep, moving her mouth in tandem with his and letting herself fall into him.

“Why are you being so love-y today?” She asked after they separated.

“I can’t show my girl some love?”

“Is that what I am? ‘Your girl’?”

He shrugged. “Is that so bad?”

“You’re annoying, Owens.” She pushed his shoulder.

He mock-pushed her back as he said, “You’re pretty, L/N.” He rubbed the back of his neck. “Seriously, though, there is something I wanted to talk to you about—”

Y/N scoffed. “Are you about to ask me out?”

“Well, no, but—”

“Okay, good.”

“Would that be so bad of me?”

“Kinda.” Y/N breathed a laugh, but when she saw Tyler’s face, serious and a little upset, she stopped. “I mean, it’s not like we have the best thing going on here anyways, and I just don’t want to be—” She paused, about to say heartbroken, or used, or a placeholder for when you find someone better, but Tyler cut her off.

“Yeah, you’re right.” He started the truck, engine roaring to life. “It was dumb, nevermind. I’ll take you home.”

“Tyler, you know what I meant—”

“Yeah, yeah. We’re just messing around, right? That’s all this is, just messing around.”

He didn’t say another word on the ride home. 

He dropped her off, barely waiting for her to shut the truck door before he drove away.

***

Tyler didn’t answer any of Y/N’s calls or texts for the next few days. Y/N was upset, barely leaving her room checking her phone obsessively for any sign of Tyler Owens. She even started watching his YouTube channel, but there hadn’t been any uploads for over a month. Nothing on Instagram or Facebook, either.

Her mother yelled up the stairs to her one night, calling her down.

“That’s what you’re wearing?” Her mom said upon seeing Y/N.

“This is what I always wear. Why?” Y/N was suddenly self conscious, confused as to why her parents cared what she wore in the house.

“Tonight’s the fair,” her mother responded, attempting to jog her memory.

“You’re helping us run our booth?” Her father tried.

“Ah, shit,” Y/N mumbled, remembering. “Do I have to go? I totally forgot.”

“Of course you have to go!” Her father said. “We need the three of us there; it’s a family ranch, remember?”

“Besides,” her mother added. “The Owens’s will be there. We can’t let them get a leg up on us! If you’re not there, Tyler will be running the show for sure.”

“Well, maybe not,” her father said. “He’s doing the kissing booth, remember?”

“The what?” Y/N said. “Tyler’s doing a kissing booth?”

Her father nodded. “To raise funds for his family’s ranch. He and his whole ‘team’ will be there, whatever they’re called.”

Y/N paused for a moment, trying to wrap her head around it all. Was that what Tyler was trying to talk to her about the other day? The kissing booth? But why would it matter what Y/N thought about it?

Her mother ushered her up the stairs. “For Pete’s sake, change into something nice, and quickly!”

Oh, shit.

***

The Humble Creek Fair was bustling with energy. People from nearby towns came to see what it was all about, and it was always the most popular time of year.

Y/N sat at her family’s booth, eyes peeled for Tyler. She kept checking her phone to see if he’d answered, but when she didn’t get any notifications she decided to take matters into her own hands.

“I’m going for a walk,” she said to her parents.

They both nodded, and her father added, “Make sure to see how the Owens’ booth is doing. I want to make sure we’ll still be in business next year.”

Y/N looked around for the kissing booth, and when she saw a long line of women, she followed it to the front. She walked around to the back of the attraction, but didn’t see Tyler anywhere. It wasn’t until she’d nearly given up entirely when she heard a voice behind her.

“What are you wearing?”

She whisked around, coming face-to-face with Tyler, who was holding some sort of weird meat on a stick.

“What are you eating?”

“Pork leg, fried and marinated in pickle juice,” he said, shrugging. “I’m hoping it’ll make my breath smell bad so less people come up. Now, back to you.”

“What about me?”

“You’re wearing a dress. You never wear dresses. ‘Jeans and a t-shirt, that’s me,’” he says, doing a poor impression of her.

“I don’t sound like that.”

“Yes you do, but that’s besides the point. What’s your deal?”

Y/N shrugged uncomfortably. “I wanted to, I guess.”

Tyler looked at her dead-on. “You look nice, Y/N.”

She rolled her eyes. “I’ve been texting you for days. No response. But now that I’m here, all I get is, ‘I look nice’?” 

“What else do you want from me?”

“An answer, Tyler. What’s your deal? Why didn’t you tell me about the kissing booth?”

“I tried to, but then you came at me with all that ‘this is a bad idea’ crap, and I figured you didn’t want me to tell you. Or you didn’t care if I told you or not.”

“Okay, so—”

“Wait.” He stops her. “Do you care?”

Y/N kicks the ground. “If I did?”

“If you did,” he said, stepping closer to her. “I’d drop the pork leg and kiss you.”

“And if I don’t?”

“I’d eat the pork leg, and I’d kiss a bunch of people who aren’t you, and I’d feel like shit about it.” He took another step closer to her, nearly closing the gap between them. “Please say you care.”

“Ugh,” she scoffed. “You’re gonna make me say it? You can’t just, like, infer from the situation?”

“I’m really bad at inferring things,” he said, a cocky grin on his face. “So, I’m gonna need to hear you say it.”

“You’re annoying, Owens.”

“You’re pretty, L/N. Like, so pretty. But I do need to hear you say it, and I’m also gonna need you to—”

“I care, Tyler. Now shut up and kiss me, or I’m gonna take it back.”

“Can’t take it back, babe. It’s set in stone.”

In one fluid motion, he dropped the pork leg, grabbed Y/N by the waist with his other hand, and pulled her into a kiss. It was deep and passionate, not like any of the other times they’ve kissed. They kept it going for as long as they can, holding their breath until they couldn’t anymore, and then they pulled apart, gasping for air with their foreheads touching.

“Will you go out with me?” He asked her, still struggling for air. “Like, on a real date, not just driving in the truck?”

“I guess,” Y/N said, teasingly. “If I have to.”

“I mean, you don’t have to. But if you do, I’m gonna need you to wear this again.” He grabbed her and pulled her closer to him, if that’s even possible. “Because, if I’m being honest, L/N, this is the hottest I’ve ever seen you. Like, I didn’t think you could get hotter, but here we are. Speaking of, can we go? I really want to go somewhere with you. Like, privately.” He winked at her, and she scoffed, rolling her eyes again.

“Don’t you need to raise money for your farm?” She asked him, gesturing to the booth behind them.

“Fuck the farm,” he said. “Save a horse, ride a cowboy, yeah?”

“Fuck off,” she said, pulling him into another kiss.

“Seriously though, can we go?”

[brucewaynehater101]

I remember this one shot where tim & bruce swaps bodies while bruce is as batman in some jla meeting. Tim just continues it perfectly.

This is the body swap au, btw

Anyways, would Tim do a good job as Batman?. I think if Tim sees the swap as something brief he would do his best. (But we all make them swap long enough to Tim having enough time for long term plans) so if Tim gaslights himself into believing they would swap back after some weeks, he would do better. He thinks he can do better as a way to show he can be Batman without being a evil one(he's fighting the gun Batman allegations).

Still, it would be funny that in his "I'm gonna fix Bruce's life while am here plan".

Tim acts less as a classic moody batman while in the atalaya. Gives more and kind advice. He talks with Superman about his situation with Kon. He helps Flash with his eating schedule. He helps Arthur with whatever is going on in Atlantis. He shuts off all of the surveillance on Bruce's coworkers, just to mess with Bruce.

He just avoids Martian tho.

Then, it's been a month since the swap. They don't seem to find any way back. Tim cannot lie to himself anymore and the Batman duties are becoming way too much.

Then Bruce dies in Tim's body.

Tim never wanted to be Batman, neither to be like Bruce. But he messed Tim up. Tim never wanted to be like Bruce Wayne. And now he is living his nightmare, every day since Bruce death, Tim has to wake up and avoid his reflection. Tim never wanted to be like Bruce Wayne and now everyone call him the wrong name. Bruce died and Tim does what he does best, he sacrifices. He ditchs his identity any hope of being Tim Drake, so Batman can rise once again.

.

.

(The last paragraph is a little darker end of the version of this au where Bruce dies in Tim's body. I happily would read some of your ideas where none of them dies tho. There's just so many aspects os this au we can develop more, also we need more bruce pov of this).

Here is the post being referenced!

[I'm sorry to say that 90% of Bruce POV's are just gonna be him suffering.... I can try, though. Put up a valiant effort]

Let's really pack in that angst, shall we?

For this AU, Tim has been compared to Bruce so many fucking times.

At first, despite his shaky relationship with the grieving man, he took it as a compliment. He was like his hero Batman!

It started with Alfred fondly tutting over Tim's capacity to neglect self care duties and his shared interests. The older man would sarcastically ask Tim if he was following Bruce's footsteps of being a loner who sits in his basement all day (just teasing and joking and slight reprimanding).

Then there were the heroes that remarked on Robin's uncanny ability to do the batglare or translate Bruce's grunts.

When Steph and Tim got into arguments (and Tim was being a grade A asshole), Steph would compare Tim's emotional incapability and distrust with Batman's.

Dick, in the heat of the moment, has yelled at Tim to stop acting like Bruce (they got ice cream afterwards as an apology).

Jason has tsked and grumbled and shouted about Tim being molded into Bruce's shape/image.

Even Babs has made a comment or two.

While they didn't mean to hurt Tim (unless they were fighting [for which they would both usually make up and apologize]), it caused a small dig and insecurity to Tim's own self-image.

He wanted Bruce to be proud of him.

Tim wanted to be nothing like Bruce.

Then you add on the 16th birthday, Bruce's shit with Steph, how Bruce treats his other kids, other canon events, gun Batman, and Tim losing the rose-colored glasses of childhood?

Yeah. Tim doesn't want to be Bruce.

It seems fitting, after stealing Robin, that he'd get stuck under the name of the man he grew to see as a warning.

It figures that his choice in saving Batman lead to Tim's loss of self.

[Hmm... I can do another post chatting about Bruce or no one dying if you would like.... Or someone else dying before the truth comes out :)]

[residentwordsofaffirmationdealer]

dick's loyalty to anyone else who needs help, then bruce, in gotham knights

i've been stewing on this since November of last year. the 'retribution part 1: sons and lovers' arc from gotham knights (2000) was genuinely soooo interesting and not in the way that its like mindblowing but its just so weirdly well and and nuancedly written.

heads-up: its very outdated like bruce is being racist to dick -- for context dick gets told that suprise!! his grandfather (yoska graesinka) is secretly alive and wants to meet him and dicks surprised cause he though everyone in his family was dead already and so he asks bruce "i thought you checked that out years ago???" like if dick still had any living relatives and bruce says "your people are notoriously hard to keep track off" and its ambiguous if that means romani people or circus people and dick goes "my PEOPLE??? what's THAT supposed to mean" soo ummmm........ 

but anyway. for more context, yoska is not actually dick's paternal grandfather but was told he was by ra's al ghul (and yoska genuinely believed it) and dick is 50/50 on it but ends up liking him because yoska is a sweetheart and obv bruce is very very very very pissed off and doesnt believe yoska is actually dick's grandfather and is kind of very. like. cold to him and dick thinks he's being unfair and then he starts being cold to dick too. (also more context -- this is basically right after bruce officially adopted dick (it's still in the courts and yoska is petitioning it)

it's also set right after talia al-ghul is ignoring her father (she's now running lexcorp and going by talia head (if anyone else remembers that era)), so ra's gets very upset and bruce assumes that ra's probably "thinks the whole thing is [bruce's] fault" (THIS IS IMPORTANT LATER)

anyway, bruce and babs insist that dick meet yoska, and yoska calls bruce "your raya", meaning (not romani) landowner, and dick tries to explain that although bruce isn't rom, he is still family. the wordplay here is really interesting bc theres the whole vibe of You Don't Belong With Him + calling bruce dick's landowner kind of implies that their relationship is not permanent -- and also (as of the nightwing runs prior to that, i'm thinking chuck dixon specifically?) dick was insecure of this for a long time too when bruce didn't adopt him and he was only his ward. also, written by the same author, inheritance (and in an earlier gotham knights issue -- sibling rivalry), when dick is close to being 18 and he's scared he won't mean anything to bruce anymore because he legally won't have a connection to him. so in total, there's just not really a sense of permanence.

anyway. later when its revealed that dick fully has his own apartment, yoska is shocked and is like "he doesnt let you live at the manor????" and dick says "he would if i asked, but i have a life here" and yoska is like "THIS IS NOT A LIFE... all you have is rent and... job" (kind of a bar tbh)

but anyway, dick realizes that yoska's not his grandfather for real and ra's is playing all of them, and he explains that to yoska. they get startled but in the end it's just bruce, and yoska and bruce talk it out and and they all make up or whatever and dick is like oh btw you can live with me if you want to yoska and he says "you have no need of me, flying grayson. you have family enough right here" (which was cute!!)

then we see ra's missing his daughter, and he does (just like bruce guessed) blame bruce for ruining his relationship with his daughter, and thats why he tried to ruin bruce's relationship with dick

and then it goes to bruce officially officially adopting dick!! and they have a cute moment but then, as bruce explains ra's motives to dick

bruce acknowledges that dick's loyalty will not always be for bruce and bruce only but for anyone he thinks he can "save" -- "your loyalty is easily come by. it is offered to anyone you deem to be in jeopardy"

bruce explains how he thinks dick has a "I Can Fix Them" complex, talking about how he attaches himself to people who are always in some kind of trouble (babs, helena, kory) and dick feels like bruce is trying to tell him that bruce feels like dick is letting dick adopt him because of the same kind of attachment and that this will help Fix bruce etc etc

and so this is the finale. but the lead up to this? the emphasis on devotion? on saving people?

in issue #10 (about 10 issues prior to sons and lovers), tim and dick tag along a wayne enterprises meeting with bruce, and the fire alarm goes off as dick and tim play tag. tim suggests that they exit the building, but dick says "after we see what's on fire, whether anyone needs help, and where bruce is"

ITS MAKING THE SAME POINT BRUCE DOES, 10 ISSUES LATER. dick will always prioritize helping other people over bruce (and his own safety)

the second part where this is foreshadowed is where hugo strange (dressed as batman) interrogates dick about "if bruce wayne is batman" and dr. strange says says "admit that though you could shed these meager bonds and kill me with your bare hands, you won't dare as long as batman's safety is in question" and dick corrects him with "i wont endanger ANY hostage's safety"

even though obviously it means something very different (he's trying to make dr strange think that bruce isn't batman) but still dick admits to it.......... like ra's you were too right.... dick's loyalty is quite literally anyone who needs help and then to bruce... and look. here once again. even TIM knows that...........

if dick had to either save bruce or tim, he would save tim. (ik he doesnt fr and right after this scene, it shows dick trying to save bruce but. its more about whats being stated because this is all lead up....) i'll come back to this when i'm more coherent but does anyone else understand. i'm gnawing on the bars of my enclosure.

[zahri-melitor]

I hate to be that person however:

"Why are Dick and Babs together in comics? They're being forced together!"

Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon?

Yeah. A mystery.

But I guess, it might have a little something to do with the fact that back in 1995 both Dick and Barbara had returned to be firmly under control of the Bat office.

And in 1996 Chuck Dixon started writing them flirting with each other in Nightwing. And Devin Grayson wrote them having rooftop reminiscences on New Year's Eve where they told each other the same stories every year in DC Holiday Bash II. Which carried through to them flirting in Birds of Prey in 1999, and to having their first proper date on panel in Birds of Prey #8. And then shortly afterwards having them be very cosy in a dating way as Barbara patched Dick up in No Man's Land after he broke out of Blackgate.

And in 2000 we had the Hunt for Oracle crossover where Dick and Dinah had to work together to protect Barbara from Blockbuster's men coming to kill her.

And in 2001 Dick was sleeping over at Barbara's house and Barbara and Dinah had to rescue him when he was kidnapped by Shrike, and Babs was tucking little love notes in his gauntlet. And they had a favourite place to go for drives for a date and eat crab cakes in Joker: Last Laugh.

And in 2002 their contribution to Our Worlds at War involved Barbara and Dick travelling to another world and staking out a situation where they ended up making out by a fire. A lot.

And in 2003 we got Batgirl Year One which firmly retconned Dick and Babs into having dated in their teens.

And they KEPT dating until they officially paused their relationship in early 2004 while Dick's life was burning down around him, but they were STILL looking out for each other and when they officially bilaterally decided to break up with the other in Nightwing #100 and Birds of Prey #76 they left each other practically identical voicemails explaining how they loved the other one too much and their heads weren't in the right place and that it wasn't fair to be dating right now but they were still incredibly important to each other. As is obvious, in Birds of Prey #86 where Dick comes to Babs' house party in Metropolis and apologises and the two just hang out, sitting side by side.

And then in 2006 right as everyone expected Dick to be about to die in Infinite Crisis, Dick proposed to Babs and she accepted, because as I repeat this was written expecting Dick to DIE and even then the last thing they wanted to give him was to make sure that they were together.

And even when the engagement was broken off in 52 due to the rebellion saving Dick and Conner dying instead, Dick and Babs were still ready to drop anything for the other if one of them called, as seen by Dick coming at Babs' call when she faced off against Katrina Armstrong, or Dick taking Babs skydiving for her birthday in Origins and Omens in Nightwing #153. (I repeat, Origins and Omens, a series of shorts that were supposed to be Portending Doom moments or restating a character's background. Dick took Babs on a date)

And then during Reborn even while Dick and Babs were fighting with each other over the best direction for Gotham (and how hopeless the other's protege was) they still found time to get closer again, as seen in The Black Mirror and Birds of Prey #10.

And then it was the New 52 and while Barbara and Dick spent all 5 years of this Officially Not Dating, it was not because they didn't LOVE each other. Oh, no. In between having fond reminiscences of when they dated as teenagers while Robin and Batgirl, they were always checking in on each other, and the other's first phonecall. Babs bitterly mourned Dick's death and their lost future in Batgirl #30. Every time one of them gets out of a relationship they turn around and see the other, only to find THEM in a new relationship. But they're backing each other up and hanging out together and the UST just keeps building.

And then we get Convergence: Nightwing and Oracle in 2015 in a specific continuation of preboot, where Dick and Babs are together again (and basically getting to rerun No Man's Land) and in the face of alien nightmares and the end of the world, again, Dick proposes again and Barbara, after contemplation, accepts and they get married.

And then it's Rebirth and 2016 and Dick and Barbara are still circling around each other and turning up in the other's books for team ups and deep and meaningful conversations, and flashing back to their teens together (Batgirl #14-17 2016), and Dick has to talk seriously with Babs about What They Have Between Them before he has his relationship and pregnancy scare with Shawn Tsang and if either of them were simultaneously single it is obvious that it would very shortly be BACK ON.

(And then I am currently up to mid 2018 on my read and Dick is very shortly about to get head-injuried into being Ric for a while)

However I am aware that in Dark Nights: Death Metal Dick and Barbara get unofficially married again because it's the end of the world and they'd rather be married than not (are you sensing a theme here?).

And in Li'l Gotham, which is largely an adaption-continuation of preboot with some quirks of its own, Dick and Babs are very seriously dating and possibly may be married.

And in Juni Ba's The Boy Wonder Dick and Babs are so together they're discussing the shopping list while crime fighting.

Like, the answer to "why are Dick and Babs dating in Nightwing" is basically "have you read any of the last 28 years of Bat comics?" Because I dunno, but I have read almost every joint appearance of Dick and Babs between 1995 and 2018 so far and let me tell you they are either dating, lusting after each other with a lot of UST, or determinedly explaining to the other why they can't be together at this exact second because [obstacle].

It's not exactly hard up for precedent, folks.

[seilnakyle]

you know, i remember reading nightwing (1996) and the first 30 issues of bop (1998), but I don't think I remember a specific issue where dickbabs had like a serious conversation or something where they decided they wanted to date and I'm just now realizing this. do you know where it started? I love their relationship, and I'm catching up on older comics recently, but I was curious about this. if you have a post with the chronological order of their relationship you could link me up to I'd appreciate it 🫶🏼

Ahhh 90s Dickbabs, aka the last well written slow burn in comics ♥️

It’s not exactly in chronological order but I have a reading list here -> X

The arc where they finally start to get together starts at Nightwing (1996) #37 when Dick comes to Babs in a concerning state!

Next issue, we get some cute domestic fluff with Babs nursing him back to health and Dick is definitely soaking her attention up as much as he can, eventually he finally gets her to talk about the feelings between them. Barbara is overwhelmed, and says she isn’t ready to move things forward, but she asks Dick for a little time

Anyways, they kiss four pages later

But they’re RUDELY interrupted by the tower getting raided and the Huntress. They talk about it a little more, but this arc takes place during No Man’s Land, so a lot was going on, and for the next couple issues, Dick would continue stringing Clancy along while waiting for Babs, (Exactly what Bronze Age Bruce did to Vicki Vale when Selina left Gotham 🫣).

Speaking of NML, in Shadow of the Bat #94, it really seemed like this was going to be the story that it finally happened. The tension was there, Jim knew, Tim knew, everyone was ready…

But tragically, editorial screwed up and had the ending new year kiss be between Dick and Helena instead of Dick and Babs 😭 yikes

Things would finally heat back up in Nightwing (1996)#55 where Dick and Babs continue their trend of acting like a couple but they still aren’t “dating”

He spends the night, (Babs says nothing happened, only talking) and Dinah finds him in Barbara’s shower the next morning in issue #56 😳

he runs out in embarrassment, and Dinah grills Babs for the details. We see here that Babs has definitely made up her mind and is ready to start a relationship. I imagine that’s what Dick and Babs were taking abt before he took a shower, but she also leaves a note in one of his gloves expressing how she really feels for him :’)

Unfortunately, Dick would only find out about this letter in Issue #57 when he’s kidnapped by Shrike and some ninjas who use it to make fun of him :(

Long story short, Babs gets alerted that someone is trying to run prints on Dick Grayson, and immediately is on Shrikes ass with Dinah who helps Dick escape while Babs makes sure his identity is secure. They save him!

And at the end of Nightwing (1996) #58, Dick wakes up to this

And that’s where they officially start dating!! They would continue until Nightwing (1996) #87, where Devin Grayson would break them up (imo I think she would have eventually got them back together had her run not been ended prematurely) Dick and Babs would continue to have obvious feelings and tension after the breakup, Vicki Vale describing them as having “hot unspoken tiger heat”, definitely not the “bestie exes” of fanon, lol, and they would both still pine, think of each other as “the one that got away” pretty much until they got back together in 2022.

But to ME pre boot dickbabs ending is right here 😄

[aingeal98]

Ok so we know Babs is Cass's mom, but this implies grandpa Jim and that sounds very fun

Do her and Jim ever interact in canon? Do they have a good relationship?

Cass and Jim's relationship is pretty unique in my opinion. He's a key part of her debut, and saving his life is a large part of what convinces Barbara that Cass should be Batgirl. We also get some fun onscreen panels of Cass watching Babs and Jim interact, it's the first parental relationship we see her analyse and compare to her own dynamic with Cain. Barbara is the most important person to her, and Jim is her father. So when he's shot later on during Officer Down, Cass also tries to help because it's Barbara's father. That's how she views Jim, with his family ties being far more relevant to her than his job.

But outside of her debut, once she becomes Batgirl we don't see her interact very much with him when she's not in the suit. Babs interacts with both of them but Cass keeps her distance, and part of that may have just been the writer's lack of interest in making them interact but part of it could also be Cass's subconscious fear of "tainting" Babs normal happy civilian family with her own baggage.

And the other part of why they might not interact that much after the initial start? Plausible deniability for Jim. Here's this kid his daughter has been mentoring and trying to help learn to speak. She saves his life from the assassin, explains that the assassin is her dad, then fights the assassin and tackles him out the window, where Batman sweeps in and takes her away to who knows where. As far as we know, Jim didn't see Cass the civilian after that. He did, however, see the new Batgirl (who also didn't talk much) debuting very soon afterwards, and interacted with her along with the whole family during NML. A few years later Bruce Wayne adopts the girl Batman saved.

All of this paints a very easy puzzle for Jim to solve. But he doesn't want to solve it. So he doesn't. Glad that girl landed on her feet, I wonder if Barbara still keeps in touch with her? Batgirl? Yeah Jim knows her. She's a good kid. You try and make him think further than that on this topic and he will politely deflect.

Thanks for the ask!

[superbat-lmao]

atla!batfamily au

Tim is the avatar, found by Dick and Babs in the iceberg.

Jason is the adoptive oldest grandson of Firelord Ra’s and Damian is his youngest brother. Damian has two attendants/friends, Cass and Stephanie.

When Bruce was young his parents took him on a diplomatic trip to the southern water tribe. They were caught in a fire nation raid and killed. So when he returned to the northern water tribe he grew up in the shadow of their loss. When he was old enough, he went out looking to train in combat, and what better place than in the fire nation? The land of his enemies?

There he met Alfred, a soldier with a notable military history, who offered to teach him how to fight benders, as a non-bender himself. They mutually adopt each other in a stilted sort of way.

Both receive invitations to a circus performance and witness a terrible thing that results in Bruce adopting Dick, another non-bender from the earth kingdom.

The little rag-tag group continue their training and before long start to notice someone watching their sessions.

A small little fire bender is eventually caught trying to steal from their training weapons. This is how they come to meet Jason.

During on of their training sessions, Bruce is noticed by the princess of the fire nation, Talia al-Ghul. They have a brief dalliance until it is discovered Bruce is water tribe and he tries to escape with Dick and Jason.

In the escape, Jason is stolen and presumed dead.

In fact, Alfred and Talia save the boy and Alfred is appointed his attendant. Shortly after, Talia gives birth to Damian.

Damian grows up around other fire nation children, often spending time with Cassandra and Stephanie, whose parents are prominent fire nation generals.

Jason is eventually banished by Ra’s for speaking out against a plan during a meeting that results in his Agni Kai.

Meanwhile, Bruce and Dick had returned to the northern water tribe to make a case for sending aid to the southern water tribe. When their pleas fall on deaf ears, they travel south themselves to see the leader of the southern water tribe, Jim Gordon.

While staying with the southern water tribe, Dick and Babs basically become siblings. Especially after their fathers join forces to launch an assault against the fire nation.

While waiting for their return, they go fishing and discover Tim in an iceberg.

The three form a plan to get Tim teachers in all of the bending forms and discover that Jason has been sent after the avatar.

Thus begins the cat and mouse story of the three siblings running around the globe in search of teachers. As well as the chase that is carried out by Jason and Damian in trying to find the avatar.

Side note: I can’t figure out who should be Toph. Although Yue or Suki could be Kori (or Wally if you like birdflash). I want to stick to most of the characters having platonic/sibling relationships instead of trying to layer in romantic ones from both narratives. Also, Jason and Dick’s ages would have to be fudged to make this coherent. You could also make Clark the leader of the northern water tribe and have Kon be Yue if you shift the romance plot to Tim.

[glowinthedarkjellyfish]

Gymnast!daughter head cannons!!

Gymnast!daughter who likes to spend time with Dick just swinging around in the gym, they’ll boy enjoy just practicing tricks together, hey they even got Bruce to but a trapeze frame for the garden.

Now, Bruce hates it when they do the trapeze. Okay Dick is an incredibly skilled vigilante and former acrobat and his daughter is one of the best gymnasts in the world, he gets nervous, even when there is a net under the trapeze bars.

But Bruce loves his kids so he still bought a trapeze set for Dick and Gymnast!daughter because whatever makes them both happy he’ll make sure they get it.

Gymnast!Daughter who actually did ballet and ballroom dancing before starting gymnastics.

Her mum saw an advertisement where kids could get 2 different dance classes for the price of one if they took the class for 5 months. Gymnast!daughter loved her first classes so much when she was 3 that she continued dancing untill she was 14.

She started gymnastics when she was 8 and would often incorporate some of her dance skills into her floor routines.

Gymast!daughter who’s tall for a gymast. Kind of tall in general since she’s 5’9 but for a gymnast, that’s basically unheard of.

Gymnast!daughter who, because of her height sets new standards for gymnastics, totally destroying the stigma that you need to be small to be good at gymnastics.

Gymnast!daughter who, when she was 15 and working as an intern for Wayne Enterprises was mugged!! In broad daylight as well. Luckily for her Red Hood was near.

Gymnast!daughter who got home and immediately started looking up new articles about the Red Hood.

Gymnast!daughter still hadn’t been adopted by Bruce at this point, that was a couple months later so she didn’t know about their alter egos.

Red Hood became her favorite, vigilante mainly because he saved her but also because he recognised her from a local gymnastics competition and said she reminded him of his brother and that she had real talent.

How can he not become her favorite crime fighting gothamite after that?!!

So Gymnast!daughter buys some Red Hood merch, just a plush and a hoodie okay maybe like 5 hoodies and even some rubbers in the shape of his helmet, she may also dedicated her next floor routine to him by having a leotard the same red as his helmet and the routine being a bit action-y.

The music she used for her floor was a mashup of songs that she had arranged and dubbed the red hood. So yeah she might’ve been a bit of a fan, I mean je did save her life so…..

But imagine Bruce Alfred and Dick’s surprise when they learn she’s a major fan of Red Hood.

I mean, Jason has only recently gotten back and relationships are a bit tense, he’ll swing by the manor now and again for food but, tense.

So yeah Dick who gets a younger sister finds out she’s a huge fan of his brother, he can’t say that nooooo she doesn’t know their identities yet.

So he waits. He puts up with her fangirling over Red Hood but when she tells Dick of how Red Hood told her he had seen one of her gymnastics competitions and she reminded him of his brother Dick decided he could put up with you being Jason’s no1 fan à little longer.

Still Dick always reminds you your room would look better with Nightwing merch instead, saying he’s way cooler than Red Hood.

Gymnast!daughter who laughs a bit at that and tells him she might wear Nightwing blue for her next out of state competition, show some pride and love for the people that try and make Gotham safer.

He finds that quite alright.

So this is the first kind of added on Drabble for the gymnast!daughter series.

I’ll do more little drabbles like this and I know I said this was head cannons but I forgor halfway through writing sk yeah. More like relarionship previews of how stuff was when gymnast daughter first met dick and jason.

Next part should be tomorrow and will show more of tim and Damian then I’ll do steph babs and cassie and duke.

Leaving best till last bruce then Alfred o’Immortal one.

After that probably some short stories to add onto gymnast!daughters life and create more of a character background for her.

Lmk what you all think 🫶🩷

[impyssadobsessions]

Prompt/Relationship Analysis/Headcanon DPxDC

Okay This can be taken as a prompt~ As I love to dive into possibilities of WHAT IF- Basically after becoming friends/adopted by the bats and entering the hero circle he starts to become insecure in his place as a hero. Not feeling good enough.

So I can imagine after Danny befriends/gets in touch with the batfamily in some way. Like they've pretty much adopted him and now he's surrounded by heroes- (Both from Gotham and outside of it) That he starts to get insecure about his heroics as phantom. He starts to get to know other vigilantes, some with similar struggles and then it just dawns on him that they're better at it then him.. in every way. There is always someone who has one of his powers and does it better. Who can do the only thing he has been dedicating himself to- way better. And it hurts. Danny who grew up with a "perfect" older sister and being known as the failure of the two-I can see his insecurity eat at him. The feeling of not being good enough. Which is bad if mixing his trauma and guilt of a future that never happened or fear of losing everyone. ESPECIALLY because he's close to the bats.. The batfamily are perfectionist- because they have to be but Danny can't see that. Even rougher if the bats don't even realize they're doing it. Yeah they're better at sneaking, duh. They're highly skilled, because they've trained on it to be that way. Even if they don't hold the standard on Danny's head- it kills him to know he with all his powers is struggling to be as good as them. Can see only ones really about to notice are like Duke and Steph, or like Kon and other YJ members. Those that know how it feels to be next to them. Kon or Steph having to basically spell it out for Tim- which Tim like what? Then realizes and feels dumb because its so obvious. (plus having felt that way before just feels like a double whammy) (Can see all the bat members having felt that pressure too so its like an OOF how did I not notice moment) Or Step and Duke spelling it out for the rest of the family.. like DUH =w= Babs probably figures it out too. Imagine a cute heart to heart with Duke and Steph, and Alfred. Those picking up on the reason WHY Danny's acting strange. Danny pushing himself harder- feeling guilty about making it a competition but also not wanting to fail- ends up breaking down a little. Because he feels not enough. Even if he had reconciled with his parents and everything- still lingers that he was failing school.. struggling as a hero, struggling with relationships. Now he with other heroes and the doubts are so heavy. But he has no choice to pull through. So he does as he always does and keeps going even if he's crashing. Danny just not realizing his worth, despite everyone seeing it. Idk just seem like a perfect bonding moment for after Danny enters the dc world, for the bats to be like OH fucking right. Because they just accepted him as their own- Like setup for each bat to have their own one on one with DAnny. Each relating in different ways. Learning each has their own motivation and they all worry about not being enough- but how they cope. Danny rethinking reasons why he saves ppl- and in the end its just because he CANT let things happen when he has the power to stop it.. And even if he's not enough- he's there. And that can make such a difference. ......IDK if any of this made sense btw- couldn't focus properly at work because many scenarios of this was popping in my head. Still can't focus enough to keep a consistent thought- BUT I wanted to get this out <3 Because the scenarios in my head are so cute.

[casscainmainly]

Hi there! I just read battle for the cowl (i hadn't managed to finish it last time because I was so angry but this time i did manage! Yay! Someone save me.) I'm very sorry to bother you, but you are the Cass Cain reference and I find myself in need of your insight if that's alright with you.

Anyway my actual question is, what would be Cass' greatest struggle wrt Bruce's death/taking the cowl after Bruce's death? Like how do you think the grief would manifest, what would be the biggest conflict?

Hi!!! First off congrats for finishing Battle for the Cowl, everyone who gets through it deserves a medal. Secondly it makes me happy to hear I'm your Cass reference because there are so many amazing and knowledgable Cass blogs on here <333.

Anyway your question is SO interesting because. AGH. Cass deserved to be in BftC so bad!!! Okay in a world where Cass became Batman, I'm going to pretend she doesn't set up Batman, Inc. I'm also assuming in this world Steph still takes up Batgirl/Cass still gives it to her.

There are many considerations for how Cass would react, and this is a jumble of thoughts (other Cass fans might have better answers than me tbh). But here are some factors:

Besides her lame non-reaction in Reborn era, we do have some hints on how Cass would react to Bruce's death in Batgirl (2000) #15. When Cass gets hit by a beam that makes the brain come up with a scenario to kill, Cass imagines the Joker killing Bruce and her killing the Joker. This 'killing' reaction is due to the beam, but it's significant that Bruce dying was her justification. Her brain had to come up with a reason to break her most sacred vow, and Bruce's death was what it found. His death broke a fundamental part of her. Ofc this was very early on in their relationship, but I think Bruce's death would take a toll on her sense of internal 'goodness' (which was always shaky to begin with)

Bruce adopts Cass in 2008, basically right before he dies. His adoption words to her: "You'll always have a real family... as long as I'm around". Just. AHHHH. Although Bruce didn't intend this, this is phrased as a conditional: Cass' 'real family' depends on Bruce's presence. For Bruce to die immediately after this would severely impact Cass' sense of belonging to the family.

We know from Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batgirl that Bruce had ordered Cass to give the Batgirl mantle to Steph (in the case of his disappearance/death). We don't know how he said this - it may have been an order before his death, or a 'last message'-type deal like with Dick/Jason. Regardless, this would impact Cass' belief that she deserves the Bat mantle. We know from what actually happens that Cass gives up the symbol after Bruce's death. In a scenario where she takes the cowl, I think this seed of doubt would wriggle at her. What did Bruce mean when he told her to give up Batgirl? Was it because he wanted her to become Batman, or because he wanted to strip her of the symbol entirely?

If Cass takes up the cowl I'm assuming Dick doesn't? Or he's a simultaneous Batman? Either way, Cass + Dick would be very interesting in this era, not least because they're coming off the backs of their fight in Batgirl (2008) + reconciliation in Batman & The Outsiders (2007). That reconciliation addresses Bruce's absence: Dick says, "I suppose we need to work together to fill the void he left." So Dick-Cass would be this tense and grieving relationship that's filled with a strange solidarity. On the other hand, I think Babs would not want Cass to be the Bat, so this might drive a wedge between them (and I think Cass, in her grieving state, would likely evade or lash out if Babs shows any concern). So Cass' relationships to Dick and Babs would change.

Cass' relationship to Tim would also be changed by Tim's Brucequest, and honestly it would probably fracture because both of them are not in the best state of mind. Cass' relationship to Steph would also be tense, in my opinion Cass would shut her out for a variety of reasons (not least because of the aforementioned 'give Batgirl to Steph' order). So Cass' relationship to Steph and Tim would most likely worsen.

A final consideration is that, when Stephanie died, Cass left Gotham for Bludhaven. Steph's death changed her entire relationship to Gotham, leading her to say (in her internal monologue) that Blud was the first place to ever be hers. Both Steph and Bruce are Gothamites through and through, so I think Bruce's death would also change Cass' relationship to Gotham City.

Okay I am so sorry for that essay because you were only asking for the biggest conflict 😭. I think all of the above build up into her biggest conflict being whether or not she belongs here/whether or not she's doing the right thing. Don't get me wrong, she knows she can make a great Bat and she knows Gotham needs a Batman. But with Bruce dead, with her grounding relationships to Steph and Babs under heavy strain, with Tim steadfastly believing Bruce is not dead, with her relationship to Gotham in shambles, with the adoption in the air, and with Dick (who's been Batman before) hanging around and probably clashing with her sometimes, her self-belief would probably be more fragile than it's ever been. I'm thinking end of BG 2000 levels of 'do I even deserve to the Bat symbol'.

I'm also thinking of Gates of Gotham, where Cass and Dick talk in the car and Cass says it's a choice to stay in Gotham, whether or not the city wants you. I think, if Cass was Batman, this would have to be a choice she makes everyday - with everything she's ever known in jeopardy or flat-out gone, she'd have to choose to go out there, choose to assert herself as the Bat. And despite it all I think she would do it. She never loses, after all.

(I didn't mention Damian but for a non-serious answer if he was her Robin he would be the biggest pain in her neck and she would punt him off several roofs).

[xpastelsweetsx]

Age headcanons for the batfam:

Bruce Wayne: 45-47 anywhere around there (kills the fact hes only a decade or so older than dick but also like?? No way bruce is in his 30s and no way dick is in HIS thirties) (do still find the fact there IS only a decade between them in canon hilarious tho) (he could be 37 but him being mid 40s is funnier and more dad)

Babs: 29!! So close to 30 but not quite. Shes actually like excited about being 30 tho?? Just vibes shes hype about it

Dick: 27, he just feels like a tired almost millennial. The appartment him and babs have?? If they break up they still have to split the rent- theyre that broke babes

Jason: 21- puts him at 13 when he becomes robin after dick leaves around 19- I also like the age dynamic between him and Tim being close in age- 4 years is a good “fought all the time til they both grew tf up” gap- talking from experience

Steph: 19. “Oh but that makes the age gap between tim and steph weird during their relationship” yeah well… the entire relationship itself was a bit weird and theyre so sibling/bi besties coded I dont vibe with them dating personally- you can tho <3 =)

Cass: 19. Self explanatory (StephCass my Love)

Duke: 17, him and Tim constantly give each other looks of “everyone around us doesn’t understand social media like we do” (say what you want you CANNOT replicate the tiktok fyp and slang of a high schooler, the minute you graduate something changes)

Tim: 17, forever, point blank period hes never allowed to vote. I think the fact that hes been 17 forever despite the fact damians aged a good 4 years is so funny tbh- i feel bad for him tho, low key being 17 is HELL save HIM AND ME!!!! PLEASE!!

Damian: 14, hes a freshman in highschool, he did middle school during covid, he knows all the fnaf lore and hes not ashamed to tell you ALL OF IT (hes an ipad baby idk how he was with the league but still he just is)

[fernacular]

Could you tell us more about your version of batman? Maybe the batfam too? Boop!

I can try! To be honest I don't have a ton to say, im not the most knowledgeable when it comes to the Lore(tm) and I'm mostly making stuff up with each drawing I do, whatever makes the initial concept or joke work.

So what I have is this:

He's not physically powerful but he has a lot of speed, flexibility and endurance and mostly focuses on avoiding fights and being a good detective, and when a fight is unavoidable he leans a lot on technology and being a pragmatic fighter so he can take people down quick with minimal risk. I don't know much about martial arts but his fighting style is probably similar to Akido?

The Joker is less of a huge villain, I have nothing against the character I just feel like he gets leaned on too much in batman stories, like an overexposure thing. He was a gangster with a gimmick who become a problem every once in a while but he was never Batman's arch nemesis. (That would be two-face, they got the most personal history). After the Jason Todd of it all Bruce stuck him down a stinky hole and no one liked him enough to help him get out.

There's not actually a huge age gap between Bruce and Dick, only about ten years, and the father/son relationship is getting slightly more awkward as time goes on. Like it's one thing for a 22 year old telling a twelve year old what to do, pretty different when it's a 35 year old trying to lecture a 25 year old. Dick respects Bruce immensely but he's getting frustrated with Bruce not seeing them as peers yet, and it's part of why Dick has physically distanced himself. (Some familial relationships improve so much when you live in different cities)

He's in an on-and-off again relationship with Selina, who has her own apartment but splits her time between it and the Wayne manor when they're on, and sometimes even off (Alfred usually let's her in regardless, when she feels like using the front door). They're just two very independent people who do love each other but every so often need their space and don't know how to communicate that constructively.

What else what else... Babs is Oracle but her spine was injured in a different way, probably while kicking ass and saving lives.

Bruce is better friends with Diana than he is Clark because Clark has a little bit of a country chip on his shoulder when it comes to wealthy property owners and Bruce isn't jazzed about the press. Its getting better with time though!

Bruce is very good at masking (I mean, clearly, he has to fool everyone with Brucie after all) but his relaxed affect is very blunt and not outwardly emotional. This does not mean he's always brooding or overly serious, he just has resting bitch face and his sense of humor is very dry. His family can read him pretty well but most other people just assume he's perpetually pissed.

Uuuuh thats all I can think of off the top of my head, hope you like it!

Also boop

[brucewaynehater101]

i absolutely love your jane doe au and i was just wondering where steph, cass, and babs are in this

Hi!! Here's a link to more posts

Tw: SA, underage prostitution

Imma just go over their backgrounds with Tim for this AU. As far as where they're at before or during any reveals? No clue.

In the og post, Cass is mentioned to be the "good sibling" to Jane and the one who managed to escape Gotham (but still visits on occassion) [in the perspective of the other sex workers]

If you're wondering: "How did Tim manage to hide Jane Doe from Cass?" He's been doing it since before she arrived. There was nothing new in his body language for her to pick up on. It's an established part of him. She might pick up on him having trauma-based responses to sex (particularly after she saves him from SA), but pretty much the entire batfam has some history of sexual harassment [if not assault]. They've also witnessed fucked up shit that's bound to give them second hand trauma. The Bats are also notorious for hiding shit from each other with Tim being known for his ability to lie or redirect.

So, yes. Cass loves and pays attention to Tim. She may or may not know *something* is up with how he gets his info, but also no one else questions Tim. As long as he can prove it, they don't question it. Why should she just decide to up-end a set family habit?

For Steph.... This is an intriguing and tricky one. She and Tim dated at one point and presumably had sex. This could indicate that she is clued into him having some trauma/peculiar reactions to sex. On the complete other hand, there's a few factors working against them.

One: They were young and inexperienced when they dated. Neither had significant examples in their life of what a healthy relationship/partner should look like. They kind of were just trying to fumbling around with their efforts and youth to fit their relationship into what they thought it should be. If Tim and Steph had started dating after he becomes RR, Steph would have had more perspective and understanding on Tim's behaviors/habits (and, after she finds out [besides the pain and heartbreak and grief she feels for Tim], a lot more of their past relationship started to make sense)

Two: Steph and Tim come from different socioeconomic statuses. A lot of his weird insistences, ideals, behaviors, etc. could be waved away as a weird rich people shit (Examples: He keeps buying her gifts after every time they have sex, him keeping an arm around her shoulder or wanting her to hold his arm when they are in public, trying to take her to fancy places for dinner and buying her outfits beforehand, offering an allowance, apologies with sexual favors, etc).

Anyways, Tim might draw from his Jane Doe encounters on what "dating" should look like. So... Maybe Steph (because she's smart and also a detective too y'all) thinks that Tim has some sexual trauma from some weird rich people shit.

Now Babs!!!! I've been thinking about this one. At first, I didn't quite grasp how Oracle wouldn't have known about Jane Doe (not that Tim is them, just that a sex worker is obtaining/hoarding information and performing some type of vigilante work). Jane ends up getting a bit of a reputation, so there's no way they slip under her radar.

And that's the point. Of course she knows about Jane. Jane would have to be an informant of Oracle. They don't work *for* Barbara, but with her. They are a third-party contact that occasionally chats up Birds of Prey or Oracle herself. It allows Oracle and ear in the streets and provides Tim and avenue to pass on information Robin can't reasonably obtain/explain.

Barbara knows that Jane is young, but she doesn't quite know how young. When they first start working together, she assumes (and hopes) they are at least eighteen. She offers them resources and a life out of sex work, but Jane doesn't take it. Barbara also has Black Canary and Catwoman train Jane to at least protect themself [Tim: "Free training?? In heels???? Fuck yeah."]

By the time Tim becomes RR, they're practically friends. Not as close as Barbara and Tim (natually), but still a decent relationship.

[And of course this means that Barbara frantically pours over all her files on Jane's past cases and client when she finds out. She vomits and screams until her throat is hoarse when she realizes how young Tim was, that Tim thought this was a *necessary* cost of the cape, and that Barbara unintentionally encouraged and benefited from it]

[graysoncritic]

A (Negative) Review of Tom Taylor's Nightwing Run - What Went Wrong? Melinda Lin Grayson

Introduction Who is Dick Grayson? What Went Wrong? Dick's Characterization What Went Wrong? Barbara Gordon What Went Wrong? Bludhaven (Part 1, Part 2) What Went Wrong? Melinda Lin Grayson What Went Wrong? Bea Bennett What Went Wrong? Villains Conclusion Bibliography

Things do not get any better when it comes to Dick’s relationship to Melinda.

As I believe it is important to own up to one’s biases, I’ll begin by admitting that I dislike secret-sibling tropes. However, the problem present in Melinda’s character does not revolve around the concept of her existence, but rather in the fact that her status as Dick’s sister adds nothing to the story. Taylor does not take advantage of her existence to add to Dick’s backstory, complicate his views of his parents, to add conflict to the plot, or to offer on-screen character and relationship development. In failing to have his original character live up to her full potential, Taylor reduces her to a deus-ex-machina who only appears to either save Dick at the right time, or to put him in danger at the right moment.

That is why in execution, Melinda’s existence is irrelevant. While I would never want John Grayson to be cheater and I do not want John and Mary's marriage to be tarnished, that route would have offered conflict, for it forces Dick to grapple with the reality that parents were not the infallible individuals he remembers.

Instead, Melinda is very conveniently conceived during the span of time between John and Mary becoming an acrobatic duo and them getting together. They were already in love, so Dick does not have to worry about Melinda's mom being John's long lost lover and Mary having been a rebound. Yet, because John and Mary were not yet together, John remains a good person as he was not unfaithful. Melinda's mom doesn't resent Mary for ending up with John while she was stuck in an abusive relationship. Melinda doesn’t resent Dick for having known their father while she lived with Zucco. Neither does she feel any love towards Zucco or seeks his approval — which would have been another interesting and understandable source of conflict. After all, though he was an awful man, husband, and father, for a good part of Melinda’s life, he was the only father figure she had, and it is very common for children who were raised by an abusive guardian to still desire their affection.

(Taylor, Tom, writer. Redondo, Bruno, illustrator. Leaping into the Light Part Five. Nightwing: Rebirth. 82, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2021. pp 14)

The way in which Taylor quickly and neatly wraps up this story does little to add to either Melinda or Dick’s character. Furthermore, Dick readily believes Melinda and Meilin when he is told their story. He does not know them, yet he simply accepts their words without requiring any evidence, without asking many questions, and without following it up with an investigation. 

Neither do we see him experience denial or any other form of human emotions to such a monumental discovery. In #83, when Dick returns to his apartment, he tells Babs “You heard? I have a sister. And even better… There’s a chance she’s not evil,” to which she replies  “I hear. You need to talk about it?” Rather than replying, or, indeed, talking about how he feels about this revelation, Dick instead passes out. As readers we never get to see if said conversation happened (which would also develop Dick and Babs’ relations), and so we never get to see Dick grapple with this life changing revelation..

(Taylor, Tom, writer. Redondo, Bruno, illustrator. Leaping into the Light Part Six. Nightwing: Rebirth. 83, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2021. pp 12)

Conveniently, Melinda’s morals and her approaches to solution also perfectly align with Dick’s own. Not only is she not the bad guy Dick originally thought she was, but she is actively working against those Dick wishes to stop. And, again, Dick takes her word for it without a second thought. Dick appears skeptical for a mere second before Melinda gives him an out by asking if he has “difficulty believing someone could have a double life.” 

(Taylor, Tom, writer. Redondo, Bruno, illustrator. Leaping into the Light Part Six. Nightwing: Rebirth. 83, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2021. pp 04)

This question misses the point of what should be Dick’s understandable suspicion. Just because Dick can believe someone can live a double life, it does not mean he should immediately accept the words of a woman he has never met before without any evidence. Neither should he just take her word for it when she says that she “brought down two crime bosses from within” and that she wishes “to do the same for Bludhaven.”

Just as baffling as the fact that Dick immediately believes is the fact that he is ready to include her in all of his plans to take down Blockbuster without even investigating whether she might have ulterior motives.

And this goes both ways. When Melinda claims to have the same goals as Dick, she does not question Dick’s motivations. Neither does she question the legality of having a vigilante in the city, working outside of the system. 

The problem is not just that they have the same objective — take down Blockbuster — but that their approach to said objective is the exact same, that their beliefs in what would be best for Bludhaven perfectly align, and so they trust each other with critical information almost instantaneously, denying the reader the opportunity to read them about them earning each other’s trust by trying to persuade the to their side.

(Taylor, Tom, writer. Redondo, Bruno, illustrator. Leaping into the Light Part Six. Nightwing: Rebirth. 83, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2021. pp 05)

fter meeting one another, Dick and Melinda work closely together, and soon they start to think of themselves as siblings. This, however, happens off-screen. Melinda and Dick hardly ever appear together on the page, and Dick only thinks of her when it is convenient to the plot.  

As such, we are left with a significant change to a character’s backstory without having any conflict or significance created by this new addition. Melinda is not evil, so there's no conflict to be added. Melinda and Dick's morals not only perfectly align, but their methodology does as well. Dick is also not suspicious of Melinda, and Melinda views vigilantism and Nightwing’s presence in Bludhaven as a positive. There are no secret identity issues where Melinda doesn't know Dick and Nightwing are the same person and has contradicting feelings for each persona. Since Dick immediately takes her word when she claims to be his sister and when she claims to “not be evil,”  there is no need for her to win him over. There is no need for Dick to get Melinda to trust him. In other words, there is no room for this relationship to develop in front of the readers’ eyes so that we can grow to care for their bond and become invested in their dynamic. Every potential conflict or development is resolved and achieved as soon as the idea of Dick having a secret sister is introduced to the reader, making so that the storyline goes from its beginning to its endpoint in just two issues. 

This further destroys Dick’s characterization. Rather than trusting, Dick comes across as gullible, as he will blindly take the words of others when they tell him they are not evil. Dick comes off as incompetent, as he was unmasked so quickly and so easily when trying to investigate Melinda. And Melinda becomes a plot device, not a character. She is a deus-ex-machina who is there to call Dick when Blockbuster is going to try to kill him so Dick can escape at last second

(Taylor, Tom, writer. Redondo, Bruno, illustrator. Get Grayson Act Three. Nightwing: Rebirth. 90, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2022. pp 04)

Or to bring Dick to danger when the plot needs Dick to be in danger.

(Taylor, Tom, writer. Redondo, Bruno, illustrator. The Battle for Bludhaven’s Heart Part Three. Nightwing: Rebirth. 94, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2022. pp 22)

A lot of this could have been avoided if Melinda just wasn't Dick's sister, and instead they were made into reluctant allies. There would be no reason for her and Dick to spend time together outside of Nightwing-business or develop a sibling-bond, and without the Grayson connection, there would be the tension of Dick not knowing whether she is a threat. Losing the Grayson connection would also allow Melinda to become her own person, with her own history and interiority outside of Dick, John Grayson, and Zucco. She, too, could have become a face of Bludhaven so that her relevance to the plot would be through the city rather than Dick’s past. 

But that would require Dick to have meaningful interactions with a woman who is not related to him and who is not Barbara Gordon, and there would have been the threat of any tension between Dick and Melinda to be seen as romantic or sexual. It would have also required Taylor to put in the work to make an otherwise everyday human into someone who can excel in her work despite her ordinariness. 

Instead of letting the audience witness Dick and Melinda grow closer to one another, their bond as allies, friends, and siblings is developed off-screen. Taylor opts to skip over the interesting and messy steps that it takes to create such a relationship by instead having them immediately like and trust one another. 

As I said in the beginning of this section, I was never personally going to like "Dick's secret sibling" concept, but I could have still liked Melinda for her own character. Or I could have fallen in love with the sibling relationship she would build with Dick, had I been allowed the chance to witness it grow for myself. But Taylor makes no effort to endear his readers to Melinda as a character or to her relationship with Dick. Instead, she becomes the perfect example of so many of Taylor’s weaknesses as a writer — his distaste for conflict;  his tendency to show and not tell; his wanting to create plot twists that look shocking in a social media post while having no desire to follow through the consequences of said plot point; his wanting to create emotional pay-offs without putting in the work beforehand; his complete lack of understanding or care for Dick's character. Melinda embodies all of these problems.

[glitter-stained]

Hi guys, I'm still on my Neverafter AU (batfam X horror fairy tales) bs and I've cast almost all of the batfam members I know well enough to cast, and I have a little conundrum when it comes to Babs.

I'm hesitating between Vasilia from Vasilia and Prince Vladimir, and the Fairy Queen from The Wild Swans. I will say that in any case this AU retains her core personality traits and she will be a wheelchair user, though because the story in the AU takes place after the end of the fairy tale that doesn't mean she would be in the wheelchair during the fairy tale itself.

Vasilia Pros: Vasilia is an absolute icon. When her husband gets captured, she disguises herself, beats the Prince's troops in wrestling and defeats him in chess to win back his safety- a badass heroin from a tale that I will definitely read to my children, and pretty fitting for Babs' Batgirl og era!

Vasilia Cons: As iconic as Vasilia is, I'm hesitant because she does these amazing things to save her husband, and it's frustrating how many fairy tales with clever women are centered around romantic love as the main motivator. If I were to go down this route, I would counter this issue by changing "save her husband" for "save her dad" and make Jim Gordon in need of rescue.

Fairy Queen pros: So, in the Neverafter AU, fairies are powerful beings who enforce and protect the story by giving great boons or curses. As an archetypical unnamed character, she could appear amidst many stories to give a boon, which feels very fitting to how powerful Oracle is and the image of Oracle popping in someone else's comic, dumping the lore that will make the plot move forward and going back to her CIA-hacking duties. Furthermore, as a Neverafter Fairy, she would have a lot more meta knowledge of the narrative and different worlds, making her a magical information broker. This would also allow me to give lore basis to her relationship with Cass, who I am casting as Princess Elisa from the Wild Swans, which is a nice bonus.

Fairy Queen cons: Neverafter fairies, good or bad, are enforcers of the narrative, because they are (rightfully) afraid of the collapse of words and see no other alternative than keeping the story in its bounds. That feels a little cop-ish, and definitely doesn't sit right with my perception of Barbara's relationship to autonomy and self-determination. I would counter that issue by making her a Rogue Fairy who had that arc of deciding she can't let her fear of the Authors rule and limit her, and had turned her back on the other fairies at the beginning of the story.

(also if anyone has suggestions for the Bruce and Tim casting because i am NOT finding anything for them, I'll take it please!!)