#I think we may be introjecting

[salty-an-disco]

they're so fun to doodle

[sepiasys]

I braided our hair last night; I have been learning how to do it, actually. More in the sense of I've been practicing braiding my own hair, but learning nonetheless :]

It is quite inconvenient at times, and I did end up having to undo it only to redo it once I ended up losing track/control of my hair. But it is also kind of fun ^^

I think that I would like to eventually get us more accustomed to looking pretty, as well. Not necessarily with makeup, as we do not know how to apply it, let alone what to get. But we used to be invested in skin care, and I know we remember that the process was tedious (and at times a tad uncomfortable, with textures and such), but the result was a pleasant clean feeling, usually :)

[nexus-nebulae]

us in front: *changes clothes in terraria bc we felt like it*

wasp (the introject of our terraria character): (distantly, from headspace) oh hey that's what my sister looks like

us: *slow turn*

us: your what now

[the-indigo-symphony]

Oh, they've definitely been here for many years. One of our first discovered selves is/was a demon, and they first joined us at least a few years before our syscovery!

(Oldest meaning how long they've been a system member. Best estimates are fine if you aren't sure.)

[littlest-bugz]

Was I supposed to know that???

[a non-definitive list of things I wish I had known in early CDD system discovery]

When you are first discovering your system, or are just finding out you have some form of CDD [complex dissociative disorder], things can be really confusing and scary. Memories and Alters may surface, you might get more dissociative symptoms [or become aware of them], and just a bunch more that adds to a feeling of disorientation with your own life and identity. Things are uncertain and stressful, but I assure you, everything is okay and you will come out on top of things safely!

In the beginning of rediscovering my own system in 2021, I was really lost because I didn't turn to the internet for resources or go to professionals for help. I was almost entirely in the blind when I was getting to know my system! I didn't interact with any other systems or seek out CDD specific advice and care until December of 2023. That's all to say I was in a similar position as you may be. I was quite lost, confused, and scared as I was coming to terms with the fact that I, as an alter, did not have full control over the body and what we did, and that my memory could, and had, fail me. It was just an uncertain time, but now that I'm into recovery, I know that there are things that would've helped me going into system discovery...

If you're an already discovered system [i.e. you already know and have established contact], maybe you will learn something new or maybe you will come out with a new outlook on something! Or it might not help at all! Which is okay because everyone is different!

That being said... Strap in! this post is EXTREMELY long! [this is not an understatement- this post is criminally long]

Notes : Before I jump into the numerous points of this post, I have to preface this post with the fact of this post may be discouraging at times. I'm being so serious, but in my opinion, this post has important points. The only issue is that what I'm saying can come across as negative or fakeclaim-y, but I am not fake claiming anyone in this post! Do not take what I say personally!! I don't know who's reading this! You could be my best friend or a stranger from across the world! So you have to remember to take things with a grain of salt because, as you'll see immediately in the first point you know you better than anyone else does. I do not know you personally, nor do I know your system or situation. Take what resonates with you, and leave the rest, if that makes sense? Just hear me out before you dismiss this post as not worth your time.

Now we can actually get into the post!

-> DO NOT LET SOCIAL MEDIA WARP YOUR PERCEPTION OF CDDS OR YOUR SYSTEM

This is more a warning than the rest of this post because this is THE MOST important part of early system discovery. While I did not personally engage in most social medias during my own system discovery, this is a point I know will be important for others, especially those in early system discovery... But what do I mean by this?

Well, for starters, this is the main reason why a lot of systems struggle with validating themselves and their system. It is not healthy to compare your system to other systems. It is not healthy to look at other systems, not relate, and think that somehow means you're not a 'real system'. While sharing experiences and discussing your system, as well as listening to the experiences of other systems, is beneficial, comparing yourself to other systems will make you feel like shit. This is where a majority of posts dealing with invalidity come from. You let the internet and misinformation to shape how you view systemhood as a whole.

The notion that a large alter count is invalid is from social media.

The notion that a system is 'too complex' is from social media.

The notion that there is such a thing as too many introjects is from social media.

Seriously, I could go on. These do not matter at all, and those are not the only examples I have seen [just the most common]. Having a complex system, being introject heavy, and/or having a large system are all seen in scientific material, so the notion that it somehow makes you invalid is based in comparison and social media misinformation. You need to keep your head on your shoulders when interacting with social media, or you will damage your relationship with systemhood. Not to mention, you may internalize misinformation!

For some, not comparing themselves to others is MUCH easier said than done. I used to be one of those people! And I still am sometimes! but that's something I am working on. Which... For the sake of not only you as an alter, but also your system, I am seriously suggesting you to work on validating yourself via self help or a therapist. From one system to another, working on this will limit your denial phases and imposter syndrome. Like I said before, I'm a chronic compare-er, but when I learned to validate myself and my system, I no longer go through denial phases as a collective. Self Validation is the biggest key to flourishing as not only as a system, but also a key to thriving in life. Obviously validation from other's isn't harmful in any capacity and is very much required to flourish as a person too, but you seriously shouldn't give a fuck about people online who try to invalidate your system or system structure. Let me repeat that in a more direct way...

YOU KNOW YOU BETTER THAN SOME ASSHOLE ON THE INTERNET.

You know you even better than me too! Obviously!

With self validation, I will not leave you empty handed because simply saying "do this" is not enough for this point. I'll give you a few links and resources that will help kickstart your journey into self validation while discovering your system.

Here's my self-help link masterlist for self validation [this is a link]

-> POINT ONE ALSO INCLUDES AVOIDING SYSCOURSE.

I cannot stress how bad syscourse is for you, especially in early system discovery. From what I have seen from the very few syscourse blogs I follow, as well as mutuals and friends i talk to, it is draining and harmful for your mental health. I don't personally believe in engaging with syscourse, so I avoid it when I can- maybe I'll read a post or two, but I don't throw myself or system into it. I can imagine debating can be fun, but most syscourse is not real debating. Emphasis on *most* because I have seen real debate in syscourse spaces. Sadly though, the majority of posts I see within syscourse tags are either riddled with misinformation- from both of the sides of syscourse- or are filled with unwarranted vitriol [again, from both sides]. Not to mention the MANY posts of well researched systems just tiredly correcting the same things over and over and over again. My advice? Ignore it! Just stick to the silly memes, text posts, ask games, and informational posts. If later, when you feel more secure in your system and you want to engage with it, I support that! Just avoid it in the beginning.

-> Trauma is the response to the event, NOT the event

Thankfully, I've seen this talked about more than once in the system community, but I think it's important to talk about this here too. In order to explain this point properly, we have to discuss what trauma is. So... what is trauma?

" [Psychological] Trauma is the unique individual experience of an event or enduring conditions, in which: 1. The individual's ability to integrate his/her emotional experience is overwhelmed, or 2. The individual experiences (subjectively) a threat to life, bodily integrity, or sanity. (Pearlman & Saakvitne, 1995, p. 60) " [source]

What does this mean in the context of CDDs?

For one, a lot of systems have a hard time seeing certain traumas as traumatic for whatever reason, and for two, it's important to be reminded of this fact when going through system discovery. It's very common to be dissociated from all or most of your trauma in some fashion, whether it be emotional amnesia or black out amnesia. That means it doesn't 'feel' traumatic or there just isn't anything there. As you go through system discovery, its very highly likely that you, or your alters, will uncover trauma of some kind. Whether it be examples of emotional neglect or specific traumas, but sometimes it can be hard to accept that it was trauma or that you went through whatever. It's also common for people to misconstrue that trauma is a specific type of event when it just. is not. A lot of things can be traumatic, and someone's reaction to the same trauma will even be different.

TW: Car Crash talk, but nothing graphic.

I'll give you an example. Imagine four people got into a car crash together. Each person will have a unique response to that event. The driver becomes deeply traumatized and can never step foot in a car, the front passenger finds a weird thrill in it and seeks out similar experiences, back passenger one is traumatized but able to work through it, and the final passenger walks out fine, with no trauma. This is an example of that fact- that everyone reacts differently to the same or a similar event. One person can be deeply traumatized by, let's say, bullying, but another person may learn how to not care about what people think.

Trauma is unique to you, and you alone. What you find traumatic will not be exactly the same as another person.

I will say there are exceptions I can think of where it is always traumatic for a child, but it applies there too. Each child's response to a certain trauma is unique. This point kind of lines up perfectly with the next point because the very common misconception that trauma IS the event is built in misinformation and social media comparison [there it is again].

-> You should do your own research, but keep in mind some of the information you will find about CDDs may be outdated or filled with misinformation.

This is also important when you're getting to know your system because the first step to system discovery is doing research on your diagnosis or suspected disorder. It can help with validation because it is an external source of it! Seeing a medical paper or article that describes symptoms that align with yours is super validating! Not to mention seeing more than just one? It's amazing how much it truly helps with validation! HOWEVER. I would also extend your research into other dissociative disorders [such as DR/DP, P-DID, OSDD etc], as well as Maladaptive Daydreaming, since you may find co-morbidities or that your experience lines up better with another disorder. This is not to say you AREN'T a system, but it is an important point to bring up. It can just be that you have a different type of system than you thought! For example, believing you're an OSDD system, only to discover with research that your experience aligns more with DID.

This leads into the fact that when you're doing research on DID or any other of the CDDs that exist, you are likely to encounter misinformation, whether it be outdated information in articles or reading something on tumblr that just isn't factual! This can be confusing and mess up your ideas on what a system might look like or present as. It can even affect how you view your own system! That's why you have to do your own research! Researching can even bring validation to your experience when you research CDDs!

I will provide a few cursory resources that you may want to read as you begin researching! Keep in mind that these links do NOT account for full, proper research. This is just your kickstart!

Here's the masterlist of cursory DID research links [this is a link]

I will also add that looking into other's experience with CDDs is also a part of research! It's important to look into the experiences of other systems, but keep in mind the first point regarding self validation and comparison.

-> Identity, even in CDDs, is fluid.

A very basic and simple sum up of what DID is:

DID is the result of an inability to integrate the facets of an individuals personality during early childhood, usually due to multiple trauma-based reactions [such as neglect, abuse, natural disaster, war and other adverse experiences]. (Thank u Circ for ur help!!)

... and why do I bring this up?

Within a person who has integrated, and therefor does not have a CDD, those facets all still exist. The only difference is that they are more cohesive and as one, but all the facets are are still there. Identity within EVERYONE is fluid. Things change for even singlets! As you grow as a person, your identity shifts to reflect what you have learned. Like someone might find a gender identity they hadn't heard of that feels just right or they come across a new term that fits them better than the previous one- or they use it for a while and feel it doesn't fit them in the end. Things like this happen to everyone, including individual alters. This means you may have an alter that identifies as one gender, one sexuality, and it may change- that can be REALLY confusing as you're discovering your system because you may assume that it's a new alter all together, when it isn't.

Why I wish I knew this in early system discovery is because it would've saved me A LOT of headache when trying to log and keep track of alters. It can get really draining when you assume that every little identity shift is a new alter when it just simply is not. Sometimes it is, especially in systems where the alters present as very similar to each other, but I would stick to assuming they are not an alter until proven otherwise. This really only applies when you think you are a new alter, and not when it is through internal communication because, in my opinion, internal communication is more reliable when you're tracking alters. It's good to have an alter to 'back you up' so to speak, but it won't always be like that, especially in the beginning. This kind of leads me into my next point of this point [haha... point-ception].

-> System Discovery, and systemhood, in general, is a lot of guesstimations [guess work].

I just recently saw a post about this in the CDD tags. I actually think it's by the same author of the tumblr post I linked, but I wanted to elaborate and go into it in my own perspective. A lot of discovering your system is guess work and reading 'vibes'. This applies to a lot of aspects of systemhood- from an alter's identity to you're headcount [which I will get to later in this point]. It makes everything extremely confusing, meaning it can cause you to feel confused and discouraged, and memories that surface may seem unreal. When it comes to validating yourself and your system, you need to keep in mind that, once again, you know you better than someone else. Sometimes, there won't be external validation for things that come up with your system, such as memories that seem to have 'no evidence', but my therapist gave me some advice for this; if it's affecting you as if it's real, it's best to treat it like it is. This applies to things like body and other flashbacks. Maybe even extending to you thinking you may have a system! You have to learn to validate from the inside to know that, regardless of if it's ""real"" or not, it affects you. Does that make sense? If not I can make a follow up post to better clarify.

I mentioned headcount, and I do want to elaborate on that especially. Your Alter count is a huge amount of guess work, and is never really "concrete". You will never know cut and dry the amount of alters in your system because things fluctuate and identity is fluid. You will likely see people with a listed, exact alter count, and while that is there lived experience, things even change with people you see on the internet.

-> Alters can lie

This one is possibly the most discouraging part of this post, but a very important point to bring up. Alters, despite being the result of a failure to integrate as a child, are very much like their own people [at least, when differentiated], and people can, and do, lie. This is not to say you can’t trust your alters, but rather a reminder to be mindful when interacting with your alters, especially if you’re working with a persecutor of some kind. This is one of the ways your brain defends itself within CDDs, and isn’t any sort of moral failing on you or your alters. Alters lying can look like lying about your trauma [either exaggerating or hiding it], lying about themself, lying about aspects of the system, or other different ways.

For my fellow OCD havers ;

This is something that still messes me up with my OCD. Here is my advice to you ; if there is an alter you trust more than the others, ask for their help to be a rationalizer when you're talking to alters you feel you may not trust as much as the others. This works best if it's a gatekeeper, but it's not a necessity for the alter to be one. This is not meant to be an interrogation. It's meant to help with cross referencing. One alter might say one thing to that alter, but tell you another thing. Otherwise, my advice is to remember that if it's affecting you as if it's real, it's best to treat it like it is.

-> Start keeping a nightly journal.

Whether this be in the notes app or in a physical journal, trust me, this is a good one. Not only will it help you keep a good grasp on what your days look like, but it can also encourage external communication, which is one of the most reliable ways to communicate as a system. Sometimes it can be hard to get everyone to get on board with journaling, but I encourage you to try. I would say that you try to subconciously try to build up the idea of doing things even when you don't want to- its a hard thing to do, but if I can do it, I have confidence in the majority of people who read this post... Keep the journal in a noticeable place, or if it's on your phone, make sure that it is easily accessible. There are plenty of apps that can be used to journal as a system.

What to do if journaling is not accessible ;

If for, whatever reason, you can not write in a physical journal, or type on your phone or computer, I suggest taking voice recorded journal entries. An audio log! Not only will it make you feel cool and like you're from a detective movie [or maybe that's just me lol], but it also accomplishes the same exact purpose as having a physical journal. It can even make it easier for you if you have struggles reading. HOWEVER, if you don't feel safe enough to keep an audio log, I would go towards an app that you can use [but if it's not accessible, negate this whole point].

-> Communication is hard, but once you learn the basics, it only goes up from there.

In the system community, you're mainly interacting with other systems who have already established some form of communication within their system. It can be discouraging to see so many systems who have a grasp on communication, but you don't have any.

Learning any form of system communication, external or internal, is a learning curve. HOWEVER. When you learn the basics of any communication, it only gets easier.

Here's a link to a post full of links aimed at building communication between systems [this is a link]

With that, I'm going to end the post here! I could honestly make more points, and if there's really a need, I'll reblog with additions, but I think this is good start! I hope you learned something from this long post, and feel free to send in asks if you need any clarification! I might not be speedy to answer, but I'll do my best.

And your final reminder that I'm not a medical professional, just a system trying to help other systems.

Thank you for reading my post, and I hope you have a good day/afternoon/evening!

[sysmedsaresexist]

what are your thoughts on the community theory that autism may cause more fictives?

I come to you, anon, a broken man. I am in shambles. My life has been ripped apart.

I just spent a straight hour writing a response. It was a beautiful response, with sources, and pretty colors, and oh, about 2k words.

And it's all gone.

BUT!!! I, Quill, am not one to be discouraged. I'm going to redo this. FROM THE TOP!!!! (and now saving draft every 5 seconds istg-)

TL;DR: I really genuinely love the theory and think it has a lot of merit. However, I also really disagree with how some parts of the community handle this theory, and the stereotypes of autistic systems that come from it.

Alright. Mod Quill here, yes, I am an autistic system, currently a bit itchy inside because I should've been almost done this post and nearly into my latest fixation (don't starve together), and instead I'm rewriting this all and delaying my gratification. I am being so strong and brave right now.

[EDIT, before I actually get started, now that I'm done my ramble: in the following essay, I discuss introjection as a whole, rather than just fictives. I personally only have fictional introjects, but we all absolutely despise the term fictive being used on our system, so we avoided the term.]

Let's start with the fact that introjection is incredibly normal. My GOAT, Piaget, discusses at length how schema develops, and that's based a lot in introjection. Introjection, as a concept, is the idea that we, as people, unconsciously take on the beliefs, personality traits, sometimes even emotions of those around us. This can be for a lot of reasons.

Introjection (Defense Mechanism) was an interesting article I found discussing this idea, especially as it discusses introjection VS internalization, identification, and incorporation. Basically, when y'all try to find good articles online about introjection, those other words are usually fair game as well. This article is largely setting out to define various types of introjection. It describes normal introjection (bringing up Piaget, love that guy, he's my main man as a teacher) and brings up how introjects (i.e. the emotions/traits/beliefs/etc) can be distorted via fantasy. When that happens, it's considered secondary identification, and (she cites Freud here but I am not going digging more for MORE research atm), "Such secondary identification aims to reduce feelings of separation and hostility, and increase feelings of closeness, between the self and the external object, and thus it is regarded as a defense mechanism." So, in basic terms, introjection as a coping mechanism is often meant to reduce separation and increase closeness between an individual and the object of their introjection.

This can be seen very readily in CDDs. For instance, a hypothetical child is seeking more secure attachment with an abusive parental figure; they then form a dissociative part that is literally that abusive parental figure, making that person a part of them. This is a highly pathological defense mechanism.

So where does autism come in? Well... It's a disorder featuring:

A constant feeling of loneliness or ostracization for many individuals (discussed here)

A feeling of requirement for masking or mimicry of others in order to fit in (discussed here)

Diagnostic criteria that clearly show an inability to connect with others, rigid thinking patterns (akin to a fixed-mindset, just musing here), and an inability to maintain healthy relationships.

So... autistic CDD systems would then be individuals with a dissociative disorder, who (due to their autism) often report feeling more disconnected with themselves than their peers, who already rely on imitation as a conscious form of survival in an attempt to achieve closeness...

So you mean to say, Autistic CDD Systems Introject More???? HUH.

It's spelled out right there. It's fairly blatantly obvious. And genuinely, I don't think anyone was really doubting this. I don't think anyone is really out here saying that autistic people don't experience significant dissociation/introjection.

However, there's a lot of people recently shouting to the hilltops that there's no proof that autistic systems experience higher amounts of introject alters. And...

Duh? Obviously? There's already a significant lack of research into introjects in CDD systems. Why on earth would they then skip forward to research into introjects in autistic CDD systems? The medical world isn't going to skip around like that -- particularly, well... because why would they even research this to begin with?

Genuinely, I think that's my frustration with the recent discourse about this topic. There really is no reason, in my eyes, why the medical world should focus on this topic. What benefit would it have for patients? Introjects are simply another form of alter, same as any other. I suppose, potentially, it could lead to more ideas on how to help autistic CDD systems with their introjects in particular, but... is it that much different than just treating autistic CDD systems as a whole?

There's really no reason to be so up in arms about this idea. You're not going to be getting proof that this theorized correlation is actually scientifically valid; that's just not going to be happening anytime soon, unless someone has a really invested interest in autistic CDD introjects.

However...

HOWEVER!!!!!

That also does not mean I necessarily agree that every autistic system is like this. Because, for instance, I am not like this.

If you don't know, hi, I'm Quill, a mixed-origin CDD system featuring 15 parts. The origins aren't really important to this conversation, but we like to use accurate labels. We have 4 introjects, all of whom are fictional in nature. One is very close to source, one is so separated we forget she's an introject, and the other two are somewhere in the middle. And, despite what most people would assume, as I am a level 2 autistic individual as well as a system...

Only one of those introjects is from a hyperfixation of ours -- one that was brief, lasting only about 2 days, and that has never caught me up again -- and she's the one who immediately source separated.

Now, I am someone who struggles with hyperfixations. I scream internally while I autistically click the next 5 hour FNAF marathon when I'm supposed to be grading. I know so much lore. But yet, despite the sheer number -- undertale, MLP, FNAF, Petscop, most recently DST -- I haven't split introjects from any of those fixations.

And, well, that makes sense. Because introjection isn't just about attachment to an object. It's about taking something you need from that object. And it's unconscious in most cases.

(Semantically, I suppose that means that introject isn't really the best term for created parts who are fictional in nature, but I do not care about semantics all that much when it comes to people's self-identified labels in a minority group).

So, in the cases of my introjects:

At a time when we felt incapable, angry, and confused, we split a confident, strong, and (healthily) angry part.

At a time when we felt we were at risk of losing everyone and everything because we couldn't keep them happy, we split a character who found her lost loved ones and kept everyone happy.

At a time when we felt we needed distance from our conflicting emotions, we split someone who canonically has never been conflicted.

At a time when we were in desperate need of love, we split someone we knew would seek that love out without fail.

It wasn't based on our hyperfixations; it was based on our needs.

I think that large swaths of the system community online forgets that CDDs are borne of childhood trauma. Splits in CDD systems are caused by trauma-responses* -- you're stressed out, so your brain puts what you need to handle that stress (such as the memory of the event, the feelings you need to handle it, the personality traits that would be helpful) into a new part. In the case of introjection, a CDD brain is still doing that -- it just relies on a blueprint provided by the world around them. In the cause of autistic systems, I think they find it especially easy to rely on those blueprints.

I mean, autism comes with its own difficulties with personhood, dissociation, and lack of feeling like oneself. There's evidence to indicate that, rather than an autobiographical sense of self based on seamless memories, autistic individuals lean toward a patchwork sense of self. Extend that to CDD systemhood, an inherently dissociative, traumatic experience that comes with memory problems that further prevent autobiographical self memory, and you've got a compelling reason why introjecting whole characters (with themes and narratives that fit the experiences trying to be integrated) might be more common in autistic systems.

And... all of that -- all of the nuance, all of the discussion of trauma and the inherent struggles of being autistic -- somehow has been boiled down repeatedly, on both sides of the argument, to "Autistic systems split more introjects because they hyperfixate."

This idea led to me feeling completely isolated in system communities. I found myself in groups with the following (incredibly limited) views on autism and systemhood:

Introjects are not more common with autism at all, and anyone saying so is spreading misinformation.

Introjects only split due to traumatic experiences, and autistic people experience more trauma than others, so they split more introjects.

Introjects split more frequently in autistic systems due to hyperfixations, so if you're really autistic, you have more introjects.

And... none of these are right. All of them lack nuance, and all of them patently ignore the facts about trauma and how it impacts the brain in CDDs.

Based on the community experiences I've seen, there is a blatant correlation between autism and introjects. To ignore that correlation is to be blind to the community entirely. However, to say the correlation is only due to hyperfixation is to ignore many, many other possible reasons why autistic systems split more introjects -- of which my post only addressed some potential reasons -- and, in doing so, isolates many systems. It also stereotypes autism to hyperfixation, which is only one of the thousands of potential sprinkles on someones autism sundae, and leaves some individuals (such as myself) feeling even further isolated.

(And to suggest that it is because autistic people experience "more trauma" than others is to begin the 2025 Trauma Olypmics, and I refuse to entertain a torch bearer for those particular games.)

I understand where many individuals are coming from when they express frustration over the theory; I've been in that exact position myself, demanding proof of the correlation due to my own isolation from the community. And, with a disorder that already, inherently, feels so isolating already, on top of another disorder with its own share of isolating feelings...

I just desperately hope that people can be open to others experiences. I think it's entirely possible that someone attaches so firmly to a hyperfixation that they split a new part from it. I also think the theory I presented here -- that autistic individuals introject more readily due to a propensity for introjection in part borne of trauma -- is also entirely possible. I think there's thousands of possible explanations, and I think there's thousands of "right answers."

And I also think that none of this matters beyond a simple intellectual curiosity, and coming to understand myself more. I wrote all of this up due to my passion for the subject. I am autistic, and I want to be seen, and heard, and I want people to understand it more. I want people to broaden their perspectives and maybe see someone else's shoes, even if they aren't comfortable wearing them yet.

If another system is like mine, yay! If another system is unlike mine, yay! Regardless, every system is unique -- just like how every representation of autism is unique. And I think we should find beauty in the theories that present themselves, and enjoy the ideas more than the outcomes.

Fun additional reading that came up in the process of my buzzing about this for multiple hours:

Experiencing Self and Others: Contributions From Studies of Autism to The Psychoanalytic Theory of Social Development -> According to a friend (paraphrasing a tiny bit), "the abstract, in my reading, is basically saying that comparing autistic and non-autistic kids can help us understand more about how theory of mind and mental modeling of others can develop, particularly in relevancy to concepts of internalization/introjection." They did read through the whole article (while also warning me to never use scihub) and indicated for me that this really doesn't discuss autism in correlation to introjection, and even seems to suggest that autistic people can't introject (in the non-pathological sense) due to their inability to connect to others. (I genuinely think this is in direct opposition to the first study I mentioned, about how introjection is a defense mechanism, especially as autistic people experience significant amounts of trauma due to their disorder anyways.)

Making the thought thinkable: On introjection and projection -> Can only access the first page, which discusses a bit about echlalia and inner worlds. However, the title makes me curious about what this could offer in terms of the Autistic System Introjects Debate(tm). I want to go digging a bit more to see if I can get around the paywalls on this. This is a complete wild card to me.

Whose memories are they and where do they go? Problems surrounding internalization in children on the autistic spectrum -> A very interesting article that came up while my friend was reading the Experiencing Self article. Again, I cannot access anything but the abstract myself (fucking pAYWALLS) but it's promising. Here's a quote: "The author suggests that, instead of internalizing shared experiences leading to growth, children with autism can feel that they add to themselves by taking over the qualities of others through the ‘annexation’ of physical properties that leads to a damaged object and can trigger a particular sort of negative therapeutic reaction." (Emphasis mine) Friend suggests full article is a goldmine. I'll leave that for you all to go digging for, if you'd like to know more.

(*Footnote: I mean splitting in the most basic, CDD medical understanding of the disorder way possible. Obviously, as a mixed-origin system, I understand there's more than one way to split a part than simply through traumatic/stressful experiences.)

[anonymousfield]

this may sound a bit weird but hear me out

if you are an introject and you identify with the negative things you did in source thats ok. i sometimes see posts where people talk about how they didnt do the negative things in source and people shouldnt see them that way, and of course thats completely fine. i just think we should also talk about how some introjects do identify with the bad things they did in source. just as you dont choose your source you dont choose the memories you gain and what parts you identify with.

[fruitwanderer]

This is very headcanon-y, but just thinking about how feelings and maybe even scars carrying over into other servers.

Thinking about Bdubs apologizing to Tango, thinking about the clock.

Thinking about how furious Cleo became after BigB's betrayal. About Martyn's close bond and (almost) undying loyalty to Ren, whether that loyalty is real or not.

Thinking about Mumbo and Lizzie becoming afraid of the series, gaining trauma so deep they couldn't (easily) return. Maybe they did return, but wouldn't they still be afraid?

Thinking about them waking up with blood on their hands, but they act as if the horrors they saw didn't happen or weren't that awful.

Thinking about scars they gain. Would people question where they came from? Would they try to hide them?

Thinking about so many things, so many scenarios, so much in this cycle of death.

Watching Last Life again and thinking about how the Life Series bleeds into HC

[the-indigo-symphony]

Btw the fakeclaimers and exclusionists won't tell you this but it can be a very important step of healing to just. Not care all that much when you get new system members. You don't have to be all gung-ho about it – I myself get a little bothered because I stress about getting newcomers profiles before they switch out to who knows where – but also don't, like, beat yourself up for it. Yeah, your system got someone new. Maybe a lot of someones. It's fine. This isn't a moral failure. You haven't started any apocalypses. And on that note, you don't have to avoid that cool thing you think you might be into because you're worried about getting introjects from it, or whatever. Shit happens, systems grow, and we all march on anyway.

I suspect this sort of attitude comes from the idea (whether subconscious or not) that having sysmates is bad, and thus having more sysmates = even worse. This is not true. You are not a bad person or system just because you got some new members. You are not necessarily "unhealthy" or "sick" just for getting someone new, or because you're a large system (and even if it did mean that, "unhealthy" does not mean "immoral" or "should hate themselves"). Sometimes there can be problems involved with gaining new sysmates! This is true! But what isn't true is the underlying sentiment that being "very" plural is bad, or that a system growing in member count is this horrible, awful thing. Throw out your internalized pluralphobia. I repeat: throw out your internalized pluralphobia. It's completely and totally fine to gain new system members, and it's completely and totally fine to be a large system. This attitude does nothing but reinforce the idea that being plural – or at the very least, having perfectly natural and normal plural experiences – are inherently wrong and must be avoided at all costs (and when they can't be, they must be complained about so everyone knows they're bad; that it's bad to be plural and have plural experiences).

Also, on a related note – these kinds of sentiments can very easily cause those new system members to feel like they're the problem. Please, if you're the type to get frustrated or annoyed when you get new members for whatever reason, let them know it's not their fault. Don't make them feel like a chore or a mistake or anything else negative. Don't leave those thoughts to fester. Don't cause a rift in your system just because you wanted to join in with the common system joke of hating to get new sysmates. Again, you don't have to suddenly stop being frustrated with the problems that increasing in member count may cause, but do not take that frustration out on your new members, and do not make them feel like a problem. Give them some room to figure themselves out, and show them support as they learn and grow into themselves. Have a talk with them, if you can. It's not their fault that their entrance into your system interrupted your tempo. You can find a new balance together.

(And, btw, that bit about causing others to feel like they're a problem also goes for the implications of your words towards large systems. It feels very estranging and uncomfortable to see so many folks complaining about getting new headmates and implying that it would be wrong of them to not do everything in their power to make sure they don't get any new introjects when we're a polyfragmented system who grows at the drop of a hat. I'm sure We're not the only large system who feels this way, either. Your jokes aren't made in a vacuum; other systems can see them.)

I am making an executive decision here to welcome each and every one of my new selves. I am annoyed to all hell and back with our amnesia and executive function problems keeping us from getting caught up on member profiles, but that's not the fault of anyone who moves in, and I'm not going to wallow in anguish over how our system operates and its tendency to throw new selves at us at the drop of a hat. I'm not going to beat myselves up when there's no good reason to. That's just doing my DID's work for it.

Gaining new system members isn't a crime. You can be neutral or even positive about it. Please don't make your new system members feel unwelcome, and please don't let internalized pluralphobia snowball into a pattern of self-hate. It's fine to be a system, it's fine to gain new system members, and it's fine to find these things not just "fine", but an enjoyable and positive part of life.

[altosys]

Something I think needs to be addressed in plural spaces is the whole "introjects aren't their source" thing.

No, it does not mean "introjects should not identify with their source", it means introjects shouldn't be treated as their source.

Also, what may be a problematic ship in canon may not be a problematic ship in the system. For example, if a Valentino fictive and an Angel Dust fictive were dating, that's fine (as long as it's mutual). I remember [the headmate I'm dating] tell me "Hey, I don't think posting about our relationship would be the best thing to do, as some people might see it as you shipping our sources." Now, me bein' all 'who's gonna give a shit, we ain't puttin' the fandom tags', I reassured [headmate] that it'd be fine.

We proceeded to get blocked by several people in our source's fandom due to hinting at our relationship.

Despite very clearly putting our system tag and not the fandom tag, some people still thought "hey, this reminds me of [person/character] so they must be shipping [person/character]."

Like... "introjects aren't their source" until there's a relationship involving introjects whose sources would/should/could not be shipped.

As a source-convergin' fictive, I'd like to say: fuck y'all who still think this shit. Like, ya think I deal with introject dysphoria for the sake of roleplayin'? (Also, role-playing as real people is insensitive and our system is well-aware of that. Hell, we've introjected people who are the bane of our existence.)

-Circubit & [anonymous]

[plurapony]

Are you faking? And if so are you a Bad Person?

For this post I want to ignore those who fake having DID for popularity ie DissocaDID or people who admit they don't have the disorder ie transDID

So, most people that are accused of faking on an online platform are said to be misinterpreting their symptoms. However it's important to mention that sites like r/SC and r/FDC are full of a lot of misinformation so I'll need to declare some nuance regarding their opinions.

DID is Covert: Not true, It is the majority however whilst 80% are covert, 20% of DID patients present overt. Most of them CAN mask with only 5-6% of overt DID patients not being able to mask. (We have Overt DID!) Sure it's not the majority but if 100 people with DID get put into a room that's still statistically 20 people with overt DID. More importantly there's no need to mask symptoms on an online platform and covert DID can seem like overt online!

Commborid Disorders (ie autism): If you have commborid disorders then it WILL affect how your disorder presents. Autism can cause a higher likelihood of getting the disorder (due to the disorder itself and the fact children with disabilities are more likely to be abused) and autism can cause a higher likelihood of introjects. Which brings the question, are they faking? Or just showing additional symptoms of autism?

Now that we've got that over with. Let's talk about misinterpreting symptoms and the harm that brings online. Which is minimal at absolute most. If you do happen to have another disorder the only real person you're harming is yourself as you're delaying treatment for what is actually causing you grief. But then again most people online who have DID are already in therapy and working through their trauma, so if it turns out later on they don't have DID - does it really matter? They worked through their trauma which is an objectively good thing.

So no, you're not faking. And you telling people about your symptoms online and classifying them as DID is not harmful. Your experience may differ from someone else's but hey that's okay! Our brains are all incredibly individual and naturally DID will follow that pattern and be very individual too. Keep posting about your symptoms and finding like-minded individuals if it helps you! (I tell my therapist about our Tumblr blog and she thinks it's a positive thing)

Do what's best for you and don't listen to dumb fucks online who have no idea what they're talking about. And FYI a doctor or medical professional having a degree does not automatically mean they know better than you. If you feel unheard or dismissed - ditch them and find a better one. You deserve to be seen, heard and understood.

Happy healing! And always be yourself, it's the best version you can be 🩷

[IMAGE ID: ponyville is a (pro) endo free zone break dni and get blocked loser ! END ID]

[syscultureis]

Hi I have a question, would it be valid to be willogenic as a way to cope with trauma? At first it was my way to cope with my past trauma, loneliness, and stressful things I face. Never was trying to be a system (kinda), uhh I forgotten what else I was gonna say.. but I think If not Vaild I'll complete stop and find a better coping mechanism. But I want to hear from people who have DID/OSDD , since it's a trauma focused disorder. Also maybe there are smiler stuff to this? I'M NOT TRYING TO WASTE YOUR TIME I JUST WANT TO NOW IF WHAT I'M DOING IS OKAY OR NOT 😭

So fun fact actually, when we were young we noticed our symptoms, we assumed we had "personas" for specific things, so sometimes we would make new ones that we would pretend to be when we needed to be, and a lot of those personas became alters, not all of them but a noticeable amount

This is actually a lot closer to having introjects of an OC than actually creating an alter and a system, because while I may have made "Chad to deal with bullies" our brain saw an already prepared person to take care of the stressor and need, and because the situations were causing stress they were causing splits, those splits had an identity premade for them to latch onto, we were never making the alters themselves though

Willogenic isn't a real thing, it's not something you can actually be, but because of how it's described I have seen a lot of systems who went through what we did assume they were willogenic

In general if you just want to "make" alters and say you're a system to cope with traumas, go for it I can't stop you and if it helps it helps, but that's just imaginary friends and it more likely to cause you worse dissociation and identity confusion if you're not careful

I would heavily advise looking into DID with a professional though, because what you're saying is something I've heard a lot of ppl say they felt (some of my own sys included) the way you're describing before discovering they are a system.

I would also look into BPD and disorders that can cause minor or start with minor psychosis as well, they're things that can cause symptoms similar to DID

You're not doing anything wrong, you're coping in a way that works for you and I'm glad you found something that works for now, but I again advise trying to look into things with a professional (and maybe on your own as well) because if you don't have DID, coping like that long term can cause more harm than good, and working with a professional and looking into disorders that cause your symptoms can help you find better ways to cope as well

[the-foundation-sys]

what would you say are common system misconceptions? like things people (and also endos) believe can happen but arent real?

i must apologise for the delayed response, we have been rather occupied today! i will list both common misconceptions, and ones us ourselves have witnessed

- Alters can die. This is a very common misconception we see both in non-traumagenic communities and in new systems. Alters cannot die, it may simply appear that way to new systems who are not aware of things such as dormancy.

- All introjects have source memories/canon accurate memories. Not as common, but certainly one we see a lot. In quite a few communities we're in, people seem to always assume introjects will not only always have source memories, but that those memories will be fully accurate to the canon. In reality a lot of introjects might not even have source memories, and if they do, they may diverge from canon, sometimes drastically. For example, i have source memories of The Heavenly Council (i am an ultrakill introject) manipulating me and guilttripping me. Was that ever shown in canon? No. Did it occur in canon? Implied, but no. Do i have those memories anyways? Yes.

- Systemhopping is possible. This is a very common misconception we see in system communities, particularly because of endos misusing the term. Systemhopping- selling, trading or anything else like that- is not possible. Systemhopping IS possible in RAMCOA systems, as systemhopping was originally a RAMCOA term, however systemhopping is NOT possible in the terms of your alter(s) going into another person's system.

- Introjects all act like their source. Yet another common one we see is that people often believe introjects have to be like and act like their source. Whilst yes, introjects can have similar identity/personality to their source, not all introjects will be that way. For example, i can act similar to my source in terms of formality and religious devotion, however i am not much similar to my source in other ways. (I have quite literally just discovered i can switch from my usual personality to caregiver in a split second, which my source certainly doesn't do.)

- Alters can be holders of conditions/disorders/disabilities the body doesn't have. This is a relatively common misconception we've seen in the past. Whilst alters can present with conditions and such that the body doesn't have in headspace, they cannot actually have those things whilst fronting. Example; one of our alters is narcoleptic in headspace. when fronting, he isn't narcoleptic (obviously) since we don't bodily have narcolepsy, but he is a fatigue holder, so there's a link there.

My mind is very scattered so i can't think of more at the moment. may add more in the future, but don't anticipate it

[antiendovents]

I have no idea where else to turn but here, sorry if this isnt at all the kind of ask you want to recieve

I just recently split and I'm scared and confused and nobody is answering my messages so I dont know what to do. So. If there's any good tips for new alters to figure stuff out that you know of I'd love to have them.. I need to ground myself somehow but I cant think of any good ways.

hey, hey. Don't worry, you're allowed to vent about anything here, you're all good. I know this was sent about a day or two ago, but I'll still try list what I know. Or more like what we usually do, these may not work for everyone and that's okay, you just may need to try find other ways to calm yourself in that case. (Though a lot of this is sort of assuming you know what's happening, as we don't tend to get alters who don't and when we do we don't usually remember what happens when they front)

Usually we try do something we enjoy, this only really works when there's someone else with the new alter or when the alter knows something they enjoy doing though, but it does help to distract us and calm us down sometimes

I know you said no one is replying, so I'm assuming talking to someone is out of the question, so instead I recommend trying to write. Sometimes it helps get your thoughts out and helps process them. That way you can work through them

Sometimes if we're trying to figure out who or what we are we'll scroll through photos on Pinterest to see if something catches our attention and gives us a connection, this usually helps with fragments who may connect to specific images as an identity or for new alters trying to find faceclaims, or even new introjects who don't know their source yet, ect.

I'd recommend looking around to see if your system has a journal of some kind or anything that keeps information about it, as it may help you understand yourself and the others a little easier.

Even just doing things like breathing exercises, listening to calm music or cuddling up to a teddy/relaxing in bed could help. (The last part generally is more to feel safe and protected, but again this is more of our own comfort)

Also for trying to find names for yourself, if you need that, we usually just search up "NPTs" or "name lists" and scroll through, if you have specific themes in mind for the name you want you can search that up too. We usually do it on Tumblr but you can do it just on Google itself

I can't really think of much else to suggest, as we don't usually do all too much to calm ourselves, we just try to get as distracted as possible, so theres not much we can recommend, but we do hope you manage to ground yourself somehow and that you feel better soon 🫂

[multiplicity-positivity]

Before i begin if this is too discourse-y i deeply apologize and understand if you need to delete this! I don't think it should be but I'm very bad about understanding what is or isn't. /gen

Why, is it so hard for headmates who have "problematic" sources to exist in other plural spaces, whether or not the introject/headmate ids with source or not?

Hazbin hotel/helluva, Harry Potter, etc. I can understand why one may not want to make content for it, but i feel like if i make content myself for us then i feel like I'll have people try to cancel me or bully me. When i already know its problematic and no way do i support the creators.

It just feels like now days people aren't allowed to like/enjoy things that are problematic while KNOWING its problematic because you either get lumped in with Haters Who Watch it and aren't actually critical just, hater bullies, or, people who love it sm they dont see flaws.

i guess tldr version is i hate that at least for ours/us , problematic introjects ( fictional or factives ) are supposed to just.. go into hiding or not use their names.

this did get a bit long and also a bit discoursey. but we really feel you here anon. our response is below the cut.

hey, we’re sorry, we know exactly what you’re talking about, but we do not have a good answer for you. it really is so unfortunate that introjects with problematic sources are so often scorned, cast aside, ignored, or unable to live their lives in ways which are affirming to them.

engaging with ““bad”” or problematic media doesn’t make you a bad person. thought crimes aren’t real. people are capable of consuming media without being like the people within the work and making the same choices. you’re allowed to like hazbin hotel or harry potter or whatever. literally it’s fine. some amount of critical thinking may be necessary (for example, enjoying hp while understanding the author’s bigotry and how that may have influenced the work), but again, consuming problematic media is fine. besides, engaging with media with problematic themes may be cathartic for a lot of people and can even help folks come to terms with their own pasts and trauma histories.

we’re huge proponents of do no harm, take no shit, ie consuming problematic media doesn’t harm anyone. but engaging in harmful or problematic behavior does, so check yourself, and be open to being called out if consuming certain things has influenced you to start acting in harmful ways. as an example of this, our system really loves breaking bad. a character on that show says “bitch” a lot, and that got incorporated into our own lexicon. it was on us though to learn how to curb our language and when it was and wasn’t appropriate to use that word. that doesn’t mean we can no longer enjoy breaking bad. it just means that we have to be cognizant about how the media we love has been influencing us.

but when introjects are involved, people seriously need to understand that these system members are not literally their sources, even if they are extremely source connected. introjects (and we do mean all introjects, not just fictives!) with problematic sources are real. they exist in the real world, and they deserve to be treated as people and respected as equals, not as discourse points or something that exists in theory but not in real life. a hazbin hotel introject making fanart or writing fanfic of their source does not benefit the creator of the original work in any way, and should not be a reflection on that introject or their system’s character. and quite frankly it is no one else’s business how an introject chooses to engage with their source.

we do think that introjects whose source is a real person who committed atrocities or caused grave harm should absolutely keep their source’s victims in mind when they discuss their source in order to be respectful towards other real people who have been harmed. but we believe that just takes cognizance and self awareness with a willingness to center compassion and respect for others and primarily victims of your source in the ways you engage with it publicly.

idk we could go on about this for much longer but in the end:

1. it’s okay to enjoy problematic or flawed media. it’s okay to make fan works for said media. you’re not supporting the original artists or creators by enjoying their flawed work and making fan works of your own.

2. introjects need to be treated as people with rights and agency first and foremost, even if they are incredibly source attached. that means they should have the agency to use their own names or appearances and identifying how they wish. it’s their lives, after all.

3. people in general and especially in the plural community should strive to be more understanding towards introjects, many of which did not get to choose their source, many of which may have complicated relationships with their source, and none of which need to be lectured or preached at about how their source is harmful. like. chances are, they already know.

idk. sorry if this is messy or all over the place, feel free to reach out if you need any clarification or have further questions. introjects with problematic sources will always be welcome on our blog, no questions asked. and we hope to help cultivate a plural community which is kinder and more understanding towards introjects of all stripes.

[lastwave]

Harry Du Bois, the skills + DID/OSDD coding

a compilation of most of my thoughts on harry as a system (note: i am system im not just like. pulling stuff out my ass)

1. Structural Dissociation Theory crash course

so for this point i'm going to give you a crash course structural dissociation theory (do not use me as a source for ur knowledge on it this is very like. base level and just to establish context)

structural dissociation states that we all start as multiple different facets, and that as we grow up, these facets all fuse into a cohesive personality. however, in DID/OSDD, ongoing trauma proves it safer to NOT fuse these facets and instead develop dissociative and amnestic barriers between them to varying degrees. these facets cope by developing into individual personalities, and if traumatic events persist, the brain may split more personalities to try and cope with this. this gives us two bits of information that i'm going to use throughout this

1. there is no "original", just alters that host for long periods of time and/or identify with the body the most

2. amnestic & dissociative barriers are fluid. in times of rest, these barriers may start to come down between some alters, but not necessarily all.

**NOTE: these are not hard and fast rules and vary from system to system. it's also vastly different if you have Polyfrag DID or Complex DID. since I don't hc Harry as polyfrag or complex tho, i'm not gonna get into that

2. Harry (the system)

so it's pretty easy to establish that harry has a good handful of childhood trauma. being born in a military hospital + town and growing up there means he probably saw and/or heard a lot of death and sickness. we also know his father left based on the logic passive in the measurehead conversation

we also know from the reaction speed passive when you find out your name that harry was born in a time all these were concerns. most likely, hunger, considering how through the game hunger + eating is an undertone w/ harry

we also have the klaasje half-light passive implying that harry's been raped (might not have occurred during childhood, but still a contributing factor to trauma)

my point being bro has enough childhood trauma and then some to create a system.

we also see a LOT of amnestic barriers between harry and the rest of the skills. besides the obvious not remembering anything, we see the skills remembering things that harry doesn't.

for example, EChem remembers that harry took speed some point recently, while harry himself doesn't

we also see that the skills have distinct personalities and opinions separate from each other. shit we've got a communist (rhetoric) and a fascist (endurance) living in the same fucking body. half light is immediately suspicious of everyone and everything while empathy tries to understand everyone even to their own detriment. and volition and echem need a whole post of their own. thats some pretty strong dissociative barriers

3. Harry (the alter)

to be quite honest with you i think harry as we, the audience, know him is a brand new split, an introject* of an old host that has either fused with another alter or gone dormant. he's trying to fill a different harry du bois's shoes- someone he is fundamentally similar to, but is, at his core, not

*Definition from did-research.org: Introjects are alters that are based off of an outside person or figure. Introjects may or may not see themselves as the individual that they represent.

knowing nothing about yourself, even what you look like, is a common feeling for new splits (in our experience). with the high amnestic barriers separating harry from the rest of the system, it makes sense that the first time he is conscious he is totally lost about his own identity, where he lives, or what his occupation even is.

losing facts about basic reality is probably a dissociative response. things the brain knows (see encyclopedia filling in gaps once given a prompt about something like Fillipe the Conquerer) but doesn't want the new host to know for fear of not being able to function.

4. Certain Alters with Functions

some of the skills fall into alter "archetypes" (not all alters will, even in like. real life systems) and im just gonna list them out here:

ones with subtextual backing:

Volition: Caretaker + Apparent Normal Part

Half-Light: trauma holder

Electro-Chemistry: symptom + trauma holder

Authority: protector

Logic: apparent normal part

ones that are just my headcanons:

Interfacing: little

Endurance: ex-persecutor

Inland Empire: ex-caretaker

here ends my post of articulate thoughts, if u have any like. follow up questions feel free to shoot me an ask. might take me a minute tho