#discourse I suppose

[almostempty]

it’s not that deep but it is that serious!

(editing and reblogging to clarify a couple things at the end of the post - edited once more to combine the second reblog into one)

I just want to come to this app to talk about deep throating mean!Joel and to make friends with other hot freaks. But I need my fellow heathens to hear me out for a moment.

I’ve tried to keep this space a little escape from reality, but that’s not a realistic privilege because life and art are inherently political.

I've seen friends and mutuals receiving hateful, racist, and cruel anons recently. I know these issues aren’t new for our Black and brown peers.

I see a lot of folks jumping to offer support and to express their disgust at the racist remarks.

I also see a lot of shock and disbelief and I want to talk about that.

Racism, bigotry, and prejudice are not new issues for Black and brown folks. If you find yourself shocked, surprised, and outraged when folks share the hate they receive I ask that you reflect on this. It’s a privilege to be surprised, to not be used to navigating and experiencing that vitriol.

I know it’s well intended when folks say things like, ‘if you’re a racist piece of shit get off my blog’ or similar messages, and i understand the anger and frustration. (*i appreciate seeing solidarity and i also do not want to police (acab) how people respond to the hate they receive)

I also don’t think anyone who is aware and actively spreading hate will be deterred. I imagine there are 4chan incel type trolls that just thrive on the attention and reaction of using the most inflammatory language they can, and trolls will troll. They inevitably will pop up.

What I want to address is the levels below the overt and active hate. The accidental or inadvertent covert racism. The micro aggressions. The passive silence or enabling of rhetoric that lets folks perpetuate harm without even thinking.

Black and brown creators in our community have been disregarded or overshadowed when they speak up about diversity or inclusion in this fandom or feeling unwelcomed.

They wade through oceans of moodboards with faceless, thin, white women paired with our favorite characters. They power through reader inserts with freckles, red marks, and pink pussies that say and do things they might never feel safe saying or doing in those universes. They scroll through bad Spanish or fetishized latino caricatures and romanticized colonial values. And they still show love and support by commenting and reblogging and uplifting other writers.

Maybe there are footnotes about the moodboards only being for inspiration, but that doesn’t erase the constant messaging that it was easier to find those pictures and add a note than to search harder or leave the pictures out.

When I saw a fic with a detail about the pedro character having a confederate flag in his trailer I had to pause. This is a perfect example. I don’t read this as malicious or intentionally harmful. I understand the stereotype it’s rooted in and the general humor of the story as a whole. I get that it’s a small detail and that racism wasn’t a core part of the character or the story.

But if we sit with this longer.. what does this tell our Black and brown peers? When the reader notices it and it’s just as notable as a calendar on the wall? And she fucks him willingly anyway?

Hate symbols aren’t unserious. Background or not. Imagine writing a Joel fic and giving him a swastika tattoo just as a background detail. Sounds extreme right? Maybe you’re writing an AU felon Joel and just trying to show how hardened and dark he is. Maybe in your headcanon he only got it in prison to protect himself and he isn’t a racist.

But to nazis it says this is a safe place to be. To the general audience it says you don’t care if this makes them feel unsafe or invisible.

To folks reading that a confederate flag isn’t a big deal, it signals that it’s an acceptable symbol. It shows that people are reading and commenting and sharing this story and are unbothered. That maybe people don’t even notice.

I’m not asking anyone to send hate and I’m not writing this as an attack on the author or anyone who shared the fic. We don’t know what we don’t know, but we have the opportunity to learn!

I am asking my peers to step in and step up, because I think y’all are smart and capable of more.

I am not an expert on anything. But as someone who went to grad school for social work — a field that only exists to combat the societal harm of power, privilege, and oppression — I don’t take it lightly. I work in advocacy fighting discrimination and prejudice from institutions built on systemic racism daily. I’m aware that I have the privilege of training, language, and awareness around diversity and inclusion, and that not everyone has the same knowledge or experience.

I also know this fandom is full of incredibly smart and well spoken folks who craft moving stories and analyze characters with nuance and passion.

I’m not interested in censoring what anyone writes and I happily abide by don’t like; don’t read.

If I only wanted to read I would stick to ao3. But I’m here and I stay here because of the community. The friendships and the extra tag games and challenges and support and camaraderie.

I know I make mistakes myself. And I know it can be uncomfortable to be called out for something you never intended to hurt anyone with. I know it can feel like your voice won’t be heard or your experience won’t be validated in such a big space.

I shared a post a while ago by a creator that doesn’t write for this fandom. It was an ode to Black fanfic writers in general, and in the comments Black writers were tagging each other to show love. And I knew there was something wrong when I wanted to share it but felt deeply hesitant about tagging anyone because I didn’t want Black writers to receive hate.

One of my favorite things about this fandom is how global it is. Getting to make friends with folks around the world is such a treat. I also know racism and fascism are not unique to one region.

It’s Black history month in the states and in Canada. I know other countries observe Black history month in other months. It’s an intentional observation for a reason.

For us, this is a hobby. We’re here voluntarily, and mostly anonymously, but we’re all people. Community is so vital to thwarting the dangers of fascism and hateful rhetoric.

This IS a post about racism.

But racism is absolutely entangled with sexism, classism, ableism, ethnocentrism, capitalism, colonialism, imperialism, patriarchal hegemony, etc.

This isn’t just a rant. It’s an ask. I’m asking my peers—writers, readers, gif makers, lurkers, etc.— to help.

Reflect on what you share and post. Think about how others perceive you.

I’m asking my peers to be curious and open to discussions. To ask questions if you see covert racism. To be willing to accept feedback.

We can be gentle with one another.

Like, ‘hey, I saw this and am wondering if you’re aware of the origin or the impact it might have?’ or ‘can I share how this may be misinterpreted or harmful?’

Be kind sure, but be an advocate!

If you see someone posting about a character being their ‘spirit animal’ — send them a DM! If you read something that stereotypes a race, let the author know! There’s plenty of online resources for writing characters from other races without falling back on harmful tropes.

And even better… support your Black and brown peers. Share their work. Show them you value their presence in the fandom.

I encourage folks to read fics with original characters or reader characters with explicitly diverse ethnicities and tell the author you appreciate that character! Recommend the work to friends.

I never shut up about how much I love Heat and the story is incredibly compelling *because* the reader is a Latina written by a Latina.

Anyway, I come to this hellsite to laugh and be horny—but at my core I am an ethical hater and I only wrote all of this because I care and I want this space to be inclusive.

I’m not speaking on behalf of anyone else and I don’t want to speak over anyone. I’m open to feedback or ideas.

I’m tagging some mutuals I interact with and some that I don’t know very well, not to curse y’all with reading my long winded post but to ask: when you have the capacity will you help take action to make this community stronger? Will you commit to being open to feedback and growth?

Bottom line I just wanna read about getting railed by that fictional guy and I want my Black and brown peers to have the opportunity to enjoy the same escape from reality.

I feel like this is worth posting because I think y’all can make a difference. So many of y’all write and analyze stories and characters with such nuance and passion and detail—and that’s why i believe you can help spot subtle and insidious forms of racism and make real changes.

TL;DR: I’m asking everyone to be proactive when you see microaggressions or covert racism in the fandom, and to be willing to accept feedback and learn from each other. Being passive is a luxury and a privilege our marginalized peers do not have. Let’s be more than performative or not racist. Be active. Be anti-racist.

some tags for folks (no pressure to share, I don’t want attention I just want to encourage folks to take time to reflect or let me know what you think idk): *not calling anyone out as having committed any offenses just feeling compelled to share the message i guess

@auteurdelabre @joelmillerisapunk @lotusbxtch @probablyreadinsmut @ace-turned-confused @baronessvonglitter @yxtkiwiyxt @slimybeth69 @bitchesuntitled @thundermartini @sin-djarin @strang3lov3 @mermaidgirl30 @for-a-longlongtime @mrs-hardy-hunnam-butler-pascal @evolnoomym @wannab-urs @sanarsi @yopossum @almostfoxglove @itwasntimethatdidit40 @syd-djarin @miss-oranje-disco-dancer

to anyone: please start conversations or reach out to me or send me an anon ask if you want to discuss something or share, idc but i’m begging y’all to listen to each other and advocate for one another and be open to self-reflection 💗 editing to add: if i tagged you it was not a callout that i think you've done something specific to reflect on-- just a general invite to join me in being intentional and to invite feedback if you have any! if i made anyone anxious i apologize! - to clarify when i said 'it's not that deep' i mean that maybe fanfic is easily brushed off as not that deep, but every blog is a real person (minus the army of porn bots) and we form real connections in this community <3

edit:

one more thing, 

first and foremost! a reminder that i am speaking about the inclusivity in this fandom as a whole. i don't want to lose the plot over one specific example that blew up. my point is the bulk of the racism in this fandom is perpetrated through micro aggressions and covert racism EVERY DAY. we can make sweeping statements and tell racists to fuck off, but next week we will be back to the status quo (aka where many non-white folks feel unwelcomed, aren't represented, and are disregarded when they raise concerns, etc.) unless we commit to examining ourselves first and looking for the more subtle things that perpetuate the current culture (e.g. harmful stereotypes and racial tropes, fetishizing latinx characters, bad Spanish, writing reader insert fics with specifically white features and characteristics without tagging, using slurs or coded language, etc.)

(i am behind on everything today and haven’t gotten back to everyone who added insightful thoughts and considerations to my original post yet) 

i did see some folks share examples of positive experiences calling-in peers or learning something new themselves and wanted to say thanks and highlight those positives. 

maybe other folks have already brought up the rest of my points and if so i do not mean to speak over anyone, but i wanted to add on to my first post: 

i originally asked everyone to step up and commit to advocating for each other— but i’d like to explicitly ask white folks to step up and look out for our Black and brown friends (who are tired and don’t get to check out irl or online). i am asking white folks to be open to learning and growing with compassion. i am asking white folks to be persistent, proactive, and brave enough to be uncomfortable or wrong. 

when i say we can be gentle with each other i do not mean to minimize pain or anger. i gladly and willingly validate that everyone has a right to be upset and outraged by hatred and racism. i am not asking my Black and brown peers to soften their reactions or dismiss their experiences.

i am (again) asking my white peers to be mindful, to take a breath and listen to what BIPOC folks have to say. to sit with the discomfort and know that seeing hate or racism might be shocking but it is not surprising if you’ve been listening. 

i am asking my white peers to be kind and also strategic. if you have the patience and capacity then do what you can to increase the odds that your peers will be willing to listen and learn. it’s free to try at least. 

most of us that commit micro aggressions or covert racism don't consider ourselves to be racists. we see posts that say 'racists and bigots aren't welcome on this blog' and we agree! we reblog those posts! we pat ourselves on the back for being an ally and continue on without making any other changes-- not because we are bad people, but because we have the privilege of feeling welcomed, represented, and valued as a baseline.

this is also my call-in to myself because i’ve allowed myself to stay quiet. i’ve relied on the comfort that my close friends know who i am and what my values are, but i have been passive. i have seen comments or posts that i recognized were ignorant or offensive and continued scrolling. i felt like it wasn't worth the drama to speak up.

i’m fallible and open to feedback ! i am also comfortable being an example, being vulnerable and sharing my mistakes or opportunities for growth. i've gotten more comfortable because i have hours of training and practice but i don't expect others to feel good being called-in or to anticipate what might make them act defensively.

i know the core principle of cultural humility is that nobody is an expert on culture, that the best practice is to remain open and curious, to identify your own values and beliefs, and to confront stereotypes. it is an ongoing process of self-reflection and commitment to growth 

and so i volunteer to be here for any of my white friends that want to make this fandom a more inclusive space, but are feeling uncertain or uncomfortable. (i am not offering to defend racism or excuse hate)

there is extreme cognitive dissonance in believing you are a good person, a not-racist person, and a friend and ally— and being confronted with the idea you are perpetuating stereotypes, inadvertently causing harm, or alienating folks you care about. 

I know it seems like a safe option to stay quiet if you think you might say the wrong thing or make a situation worse. 

I know it’s hard enough to send someone a friendly message or to know what to comment on a fic you loved, let alone to feel empowered to point out something that might make someone else react defensively. I’m not volunteering to be the morality police (acab) but i’m here for all of my friends, mutuals, and peers in the fandom who want support with calling-in others or learning. i encourage and welcome discussion and curiosity. 

i ask white folks to make conscious changes so that when these conversations die down we don’t fall back into enabling white ignorance to infect the fandom and harm our friends.

bonus thoughts

i see and am grateful for the folks that called my first post eloquent and at the same time i am deeply aware of the ‘angry Black woman’ trope that undermines and minimizes Black women’s voices (especially when they are rightfully angry). i guess i’m just repeating that i don’t want to speak over anyone but i am committing to speaking up. 

i don’t want to harp on the confederate flag example anymore, but i would like to be clear that this isn’t about censorship. Consider the context and don’t turn this into a straw man argument or dilute the message with whataboutery. It speaks volumes if you’d rather argue semantics than listen to your peers about the reality of impact vs intent with that example or others. 

thank you for reading and being here <3

[kimkhimhant]

i think it's funny when people who have read and are in the fandom for all for the game still put up a fuss over characters being "problematic"

especially like, the foxes. aka the team of fucked up, traumatized and mentally ill misfits. like, yeah, no shit, these people aren't going to be perfect, faultless, kind and saintly. that's kinda the point? but the point is that even if they're messy and tactless and rough, they're fighters who managed to come together to beat impossible odds.

i just. idk. these are books about mafias and cults and horrific abuse and all of the characters have their own issues and idk how people are reading that and loving that about them and then still having weird purity culture takes on anything the "good" characters do that's not perfectly moral and rational and kind

[carlos-tk]

I don’t watch that show but wow the misogyny left in tags and comments in regards to that actress 🥴 you guys are adults this is embarrassing

it is not her fault that the she is the love interest in the way of your ship

[mid-knight-black]

Evan Buckley went from a sIutty frat boy to a cardigan wearing PTA dad and I am honestly so proud of him 🥹🥹🥹

[mayvette]

“bonnibel bubblegum” plot summary

[beanarie]

i'm struggling to put into words exactly what it is that bothers me about eddie and buck's plot in this episode. i see what people are saying in that this fits with eddie's behavior when he's been at rock bottom, so i guess character assassination isn't the right term. i'm still shocked he put his hands on buck, and for far less provocation and less reason to be irrational than when chim fully punched buck. but, whatever.

my biggest problem is with the structuring. this isn't mad men or sopranos. firefam is allowed to be flawed but they're all supposed to be fundamentally good people that we're meant to root for. if they do something objectively shitty, the episode is supposed to have them make up for it by the end or put their actions in a different light. imo they failed at that tonight.

buck had done absolutely nothing wrong, was in fact doing his best to look out for the others while barely keeping his head above water. he was not shown being annoying or intrusive. just visibly sad (to the point where his voice sounded different. ostark the actor that you are). the only people showing appreciation for his feelings up to this point have been maddie a week before the funeral and tommy when it all went it down, and there's no indication that buck even knows he saw him which makes me want to scream.

eddie and hen seemed to care what was going on with buck, in a mainly casual, jokey way, and hen seemed more concerned about the impact of eddie returning to el paso on buck than his grief over bobby.

anyway the next thing we know eddie is going the fuck off on buck, just ripping him to absolute shreds about his self-centeredness while crying about how no one understands his pain and then lowkey blaming buck for not saving bobby. horrifying. this is us made an entire arc out of kevin saying that to randall, estranging them for like a year before they made peace. not that i expect or want 911 to be this is us. i'm just saying. they took it really fucking far. they did not have to. and eddie's sole accountability was "somebody was being a dick to you" before letting his child and his recovering aunt deal with nurturing buck.

that was not enough to get me back on board, show. not nearly enough.

[ashlychee-comics]

I had a dream you guys secured a Pez partnership, of all things

All art belongs to @ihopesocomic

[splatoonpolls]

Fandom discourse is weird. We will have literal adults who will try to analyze ”Princess unicorn in sunshineland” as the second coming of The Plague by Camus. While they can’t even grasp basic stuff like ”district 11 is a direct reference to how black people were and are still treated in the USA” while reading the hunger games.

[burningcheese-merchant]

okay enough with the ship discourse! let's lighten the mood with some season 10 discussions! I'm really really excited to see the latter half of the story, and I'm super curious how this will going into next months update too! chocolate bark, and whatever second cookie that'll come in july, I cannot wait to see how things play out, the dragons have some of the most interesting lore in all of CR history (second only to the Novas hehehe my awesome space super sentai family 😄)

Absolutely, my friend! No more dumb discourse, only good and silly vibes

I actually meant to make a separate post talking about my thoughts on Season 10 of Ovenbreak, but I was always too busy to do so. Your ask gives me an excuse lol

I have LOVED this update so far. It's so great. The story is so great. Longan Dragon being 1000000000000 kilometers long and looking like an eldritch horror? Basically being Jörmungandr from Norse myth? Peak. Longan Dragon trapping everyone in some kind of mind prison and forcing them to endure constant pyschological assault? Peak. More dragon family lore? Peak. Chocolate Bark? Peak, I love him, he's so handsome and perfect, if only he was in Kingdom too

I think what I've enjoyed most so far is:

Dark Choco and Chocolate Bark backstory. I really enjoy their little mentor/student bond. CB is such a fun dude. He's tough but he's lighthearted and has a sense of humor. The way he speaks to DC is so charming, he's like a older brother or uncle almost

I think Dark Choco really needed someone like this in his life, you know? It's a big shame he left, even if it was for an important mission. It makes me wonder how differently things would've turned out if he'd stayed.

Also...

"My father" this, "my father" that. #SayHisName, Devsis lol

It's cool to get official confirmation that the Dark Cacao Kingdom exists (existed?) in Ovenbreak as well. And by extension, Dark Cacao himself exists (existed?) there too. And... he's not the most affectionate dad still lol. It's ok, he's still my favorite Ancient and Kingdom character. I am begging and pleading Devsis for more lore on this, hell give us a whole update focusing on Dark Choco PLEASE, he's been so neglected in OB and it's been a huge shame because he gets more attention in Kingdom. I love Dark Choco, I love how tragic he is, I love his redemption arc. (It's admittedly... less compelling here than it is in CRK, but that can be fixed with a Dark Choco-focused update imo)

I just really, really adore seeing the dragons interact with each other. I love their dynamic SO much, they're my favorite group in this whole series. I'm nutso about them individually and as a family/clan. It's been awesome learning more about Lychee and Longan especially; I love Lychee's unwilling attachment to Rambutan and her apparent longing for proper attention from/bonding with Longan, I love the way the Pitaya-Ananas-Lotus trio bicker and banter, THE LONGAN CHARACTER STUDY‼️‼️‼️ Pitaya may be my favorite dragon but Longan is the most complex and interesting one by far. The warped affection he feels for his family. The need to protect and govern them. The way he perceives time and the world at large. His sociopathic desire for absolute control and revenge for perceived injustices. The way he tries to manipulate the others into agreeing with him and going along with his plans (those scenes in the Dark Realm are fucking crazy. The way he warps and weaponizes their emotions and memories is actual textbook abuser/cult brainwashing shit)

What the actual fuck dude. Ok, Charles Manson lol. And I thought Shadow Milk was bad. (No lie I find Longan Dragon 10x more intimidating than Shadow Milk. He exudes an aura that SM simply does not. THIS is power. THIS is boundless knowledge sharpened into a blade and held against your throat. Shadow Milk may be a god but Longan Dragon is above even godhood. I'm way more scared of Longan than any of the Beasts)

Biggest scene for me though?

WHAT??? LAST SURVIVOR OF THE FLOWER DRAGONS??? WHAT???????????

In hindsight... yeah it was kind of obvious something was up with Lotus Dragon lol. The one flower in a group of fruits. Pretty on the nose. But it's still crazy to think about, you know? What happened to the other Flower Dragons? Why is Lotus the only one left? How did the other Fruit Dragons feel about taking her in? How did SHE feel about that, essentially being adopted by a rival clan? What if they had something to do with the Flower Dragons' demise? They better address this in the next half of the story istg. I will lose it. I WILL write a sternly worded email to Devsisters. I WILL cry

What this says about Longan's character is also quite interesting. It appears that his respect and affection for dragons actually does extend beyond his own immediate family. Enough to take in an orphan. This capacity for compassion and generosity is so unlike how Longan normally behaves. It makes for a really fascinating pivot from his usual modus operandi and adds a lot of depth to his thinking and character

(honestly, this makes me want and hope for Longan Dragon's surrender even more. I've always thought that Longan willingly standing down and ceding victory to the other dragons would be more impactful than him simply being beaten the normal way, aka through the Power of Friendship and Punching Stuff. I want Longan's love for his family to win in the end. I want him to come to realize that he really would have no choice but to eradicate his family in order to achieve his goals, and then forfeit because he could never bring himself to do it. They're the reason why he's doing any of this in the first place. I don't want him to change his mind about mortals or anything, he can stay a genocidal race supremacist lol. I just think it would be more interesting if he willingly stopped what he was doing just because he can't let go of his kin. Perhaps he truly is only clinging to an idyllic past long dead. It would hurt. Hurt his pride, his ego. But their preservation would require the destruction of his clan and he cannot stand for that. THEY are his mission. THEY are his dream. Yes, Longan will forever mourn this loss as he shall forever mourn the past itself. But at least he'll still have those four afterwards. Even if they hate him.)

The dragons make me so ill. I need to pelt them with rocks. Gonna call the Stone Dragons Pitaya was beefing with in prehistoric times and ask them for a favor

[gayedmundo]

eddie being gay is vital for his arc to make sense because the majority of his queercoding hasn't been built on his attraction to men but rather his lack of attraction to women just btw

[blessyo4]

slay

[fromtheseventhhell]

I love how people are only ever interested in defending Arya's right to be weird-looking. It's never defending her intelligence from people who claim she's incapable of thinking for herself, highlighting her importance to the plot and refusing to see her as just a prop, acknowledging how much of her story gets stolen and given to other characters, talking about her trauma or how often it gets erased and overlooked, seeing her as more than just an attack dog/bodyguard, etc. Nope. It's just a "why can't people let Arya be ugly/unconventional looking? :(" post every other week because people are, for whatever reason, obsessed with how Arya is visually perceived. One of the most misinterpreted characters yet the issue is only ever with her being portrayed as "too pretty" or the wrong "type" of pretty. This fandom will entirely rewrite a character's motivations, values, and role in the story to the point that they consider references to canon "hate" but! The true injustice to canon is we acknowledge that she is described as pretty several times. Arya simply existing as her pretty, important, and non-conforming self is too complex and confusing for people to comprehend 😔.

[milkywayes]

this might be controversial but i actually think it’s more interesting and perhaps even more in the spirit of the narrative if we don’t make garrus’ dad out to be some super swell guy who was right all along and whose only mistake was getting saddled with a headstrong child who couldn’t see reason. actually. it’s also funnier imo if the relationship is more than one-sidedly dysfunctional

[essektheylyss]

I do think some of the handwringing I've seen about "hate" is funny because from what I can tell, even on twitter people are being surprisingly civil. The cast hasn't even had to make a big announcement clarifying a situation because everyone misinterpreted something and worked themselves into a furor. It took less than 12 hours after the c2 finale before Matt and Liam were like, "Uh, what do you mean, we literally said on stream Caleb and Essek get together." But there's also been a significant shift online since then to the point where anything short of "the precious baby blorbos were treated so niceys :3" is considered vicious hate, for some reason*, so I can't say I'm really surprised.

[mossiishroom]

I saw someone talking about this earlier but,

I am a little worried about end crystals getting nerfed, since it’s not out of the question. I can understand it from a standpoint of griefing, but I feel like that can be handled more with a rule of them having to be used outside of bases.

But something about them being nerfed when someone successfully used them and is better at using them than someone else would just rub off very wrong. Pangi (and Pili) have experience with end crystals, so of course they can utilize them better. Plus it would make for more interesting content if other people had to learn to get better at them and learn how to survive them then if they just removed them entirely. Especially because this is now one of green/red’s main advantages and they don’t have many in the first place.

[artistic--screaming]

I honestly don't give a fuck whether somebody's proship or antiship or whatever the fuck. I always hate when people go "ERMMMM that artist is problematic cuz they PrOsHiP" ok why are you telling me this? I don't care. Find a real problem, I beg of you. If you really don't like something, just block it.

Like, I feel as if the only time people should care if someone's proship is if they endorse whatever problematic thing they're portraying IRL.