#jedi order discourse

[peregrine-ing]

People are always up in a fuss about the Jedi's strict rules, as if they weren't and order of essentially monks? Their rules aren't even that difficult to follow, even the attachment rule boils down to "remember your vows to the overall good of the galaxy. Duty comes first. Don't be a possessive jerk to people". to me this is just having a healthy relationship.

I've also heard alot of people saying that the jedi want you to bottle up your emotions. No? have a healthy emotional control and response. Don't let them control your actions. Understand your emotions, examine them and where they come from and let them go. All pretty standard mediation stuff tbh

[peregrine-ing]

No you're right, of course an order of 10,000+ people that have lasted thousands of years are going to have different interpretations of the code and other jedi rules. Can it really be expected of a group of more than like 10 people to reach a consensus where they all exactly agree? No! History of religious orders (like Buddhists) are full of debates and schisms over interpreting their texts!

And the Jedi code as is (in either version of it) really isn't a set of rules, more like a philosophy to live by. I personally prefer the 'Emotion, yet Peace' version because I think that the duality of the two in each line is important for the individual jedi to consider and balance within themselves.

Emotion, yet Peace Ignorance, yet Knowledge Passion, yet Serenity Chaos, yet Harmony Death, yet the Force

"no attachments" in SW literally just means "don't be selfish and possessive". that's it. that's all there is. doesn't mean jedi can't have friends and loved ones. they can. just. don't be possessive and selfish about it. don't murder thousands of people in an effort to save one.

[cinderfeather]

Journal Article Quote: The Tao of Star Wars

From Wetmore, K. J. (2000). The Tao of “Star Wars”, Or, Cultural Appropriation in a Galaxy Far, Far Away. Studies in Popular Culture, 23(1), 91–106:

“It is in the dualistic nature of the Force that Lucas comes closest to Western religious philosophy. While Taoism recognizes that good and evil, light and dark, are merely opposites in which balance must be sought, Western philosophy judges light to be good and dark to be bad. The yin yang symbol is the embodiment of Taoism—both light and dark aspects are present and balanced. Western religious philosophy acknowledges a dualistic nature from which the darkness must be purged. Evil is seen as separate from good and must be not only resisted and rejected but over come. The Dark Side is the result of Taoism's being subjected to the Western concept of evil.”

I recommend reading the whole article if you can. It’s the most fascinating analysis of Star Wars I’ve ever read. You can access it by making a free account on JSTOR which allows you to read up to 100 free articles a month.

[redstuffs-ig]

Time to get burned at the stake but here's my hot take: Both sides were justified in the "You are on this council but not a Master" debacle

Anakin had been moved to the Council to play triple agent for the chancellor. It was already a sham, a purely political move, so to still be a Knight - essentially rubbing in that he was a member in name only, was a slap in the face after all the chicanery the Order had put him through, and he was justified in getting upset.

HOWEVER.

The Council had no obligation to promote Anakin. He was twenty-two years old, and an exceptional warrior, but if Jedi promoted based purely on combat ability they'd be closer to Mandalorians than the peacekeepers they are meant to be. Jedi Masters are spiritual leaders, and Anakin was still a kid, not to mention a notorious hothead and maverick. Mace Windu probably respected Anakin as a warrior and as a Jedi, but he had the wisdom to understand he wasn't ready to be a Master. Anakin felt he was owed the position as a reward, and though his thought process is understandable it wasn't right. This argument only happened because someone tried to strongarm the Jedi... Hmm...

You know, it's almost like Palpatine's scheming wearing down the Jedi through difficult situations and impossible choices is a theme of the trilogy.

[owlapprentice]

Headcanons that answer various plot holes/ problems with Star Wars

1. Why does the Order only induct babies? Doesn’t that make them kidnappers?

The Force is very powerful and babies are very emotional. For a power that so tied to emotions this combination can be very dangerous. Babies/toddlers need to learn how to control and emotions before a tantrum causes an explosion. Older children who successfully get through this period without exploding things with their mind powers are seen to have a naturally high self discipline and emotional intelligence and thus don’t need to be trained.

Its seem as a great honor in many cultures across the Galaxy to have your child become a Jedi. To the point where as soon as parents suspect their kid is force sensitive many immediately and willingly give the baby to the Order. There is absolutely no kidnapping or coercion involved.

2. If red lightsabers are from “bleeding” a kyber crystal, why doesn’t Anakin’s lightsaber turn red in Revenge of the Sith?

While kyber crystals are naturally attuned to their Jedi’s emotions, it takes far more than just tapping into the Dark Side for the crystal to bleed. You have to do it on purpose. Not quite requires-a-whole-ritual levels of on purpose but like you have to consciously take your anger and pain and negativity and force them into your crystal. Anakin was a little too preoccupied with everything going on at that time to do that.

Those are the only two I can think of right now so feel free to send me more

[loverboy-havocboy]

"the jedi were arrogant"

"the jedi were blind"

"the jedi were complacent"

"the jedi were complicit"

"the jedi failed"

the jedi were being wiped out

the jedi were peacekeepers forced to fight in a war

the jedi were watching their children die on battlefields

the jedi never wanted to train anakin in the first place

the jedi were being lied to

the jedi were betrayed

the jedi were slaughtered

[astheforcewillsit]

i do think many of the people who have literally critiques against the Jedi Order are typically drowned out by tumblr just being a very "pro-Jedi" site in general, and misconstruing their arguments to make them look dumb.

But for in-depth, neutral conversations about the Jedi, i've found YouTube, twitter, and Redditt are really good. And shockingly have a larger reach than tumblr.

But i'd also really encourage Jedi Critical folks to put on an event or something to share their thoughts and ideas, because the analysis given are really good, but not often shared because of how bias this website is.

like "jedi critical week" where you all share really interesting analysis of the Jedi Order. It could be a really good academic space.

let me know if anyone bites at this idea, i'd love to see where it goes or help out.

[triple-a-artist]

Okay lemme clarify some things on my thoughts on the Jedi Order bc I’ve been seeing a lot of discussion on my dash!

1. I criticize the jedi order for the way they fell victim to no longer serving as peacekeepers. Some of the ways their teachings can be manipulated to justify harmful things that helped lead Anakin to his fall and ultimately helped cause the downfall of the Jedi.

This doesn’t mean I think the Jedi are evil or the order was wrong. In fact quite the opposite. Just that there’s reasons to criticize some of the shortcomings of the order.

2. I understand that the textbook concept of a “grey Jedi” doesn’t exist. Since george lucas has stated that you will always fall victim to selfishness and evil. When I use and Used the term “grey Jedi” I use it in the sense of someone who follows the will of the force outside of a set practice or teaching. AKA Ahsoka, Ezra, Qui-Gon arguably. NOT someone who uses both the dark and light side.

3. I can recognize Anakin both was already leaning towards the dark and ALSO was failed by the council and people in his life who didn’t take some of his concerning behavior seriously. There’s room I feel to recognize both!

Those are my personal opinions and thoughts on the jedi! In case anyone was wondering :D

TLDR: Jedi arnt bad but there’s some criticism to be had, When I say Grey Jedi I don’t mean it in the way most people do, Anakin is more complex than a simple reason to why he fell.

[marveltaughtmetoread]

I've spoken about it before but I'm gonna speak about it again, the Jedi being taken as babies and being raised inside the Jedi temple with little connection to the outside world (as in having a relationship with non-Jedi folk) where the only way to leave is to cast aside the Jedi is wild

The only real world comparison you can make is monks, because holy temple full of people specifically dedicated to that religion, trying to live separately from the outside world, but

Monks aren't chosen because of their abilities, they choose to pursue a life of priesthood because of their faith

And sure, the monasteries and convents were a dumping ground for noble family's (extra) children, meaning the child had somewhat of a mixed consent to the process but in this day and age they are just a place where you pursue your faith

But even then the recruitment process was flipped, monks weren't actively recruited by the temple, it was still a life you had to seek out or your parents had to push onto you, it wasn't something you were forced to join from infancy

The places that don't let you choose to leave that give you no other option, that you can be born into and not escape from, without losing everything you have ever known, are what we call cults

[mearchy]

I actually think I put my finger on the thing that most bothers me about the perpetual pro vs anti Jedi discourse, which is that everybody argues for their interpretation of the Jedi as though the Jedi were a monolith. As though there were not 10,000+ of them spread across multiple temples, from many different homeworlds, with unique paths and individual connections to the Force. It doesn’t seem right to me to assert absolutes about what the Jedi code Actually Meant and whether it was too dogmatic or applied correctly by the Order or whatever when I think we can see in canon that you would get different answers about its meaning and application from the Jedi themselves, even the ones that inhabited and learned in the same temple. I feel like that’s the point of a lot of what we get shown in the prequels and TCW.

[the-far-bright-center]

Re: Obitine and Anidala

I originally wrote this in response to @marvelstars' excellent post on the subject, but I wanted to share it again because it's one of many topics in which I have a differing view from the prevailing fandom perspective.

Above all, it truly drives me nuts how the fandom pits these two relationships against each other. I'm a die-hard Anidala shipper and when I first watched TCW, I was DELIGHTED by the Obitine ship. I saw nothing about it that made me think it was supposed to be viewed as somehow 'better' or more 'ideal' than Anidala. I only ever saw it as a relationship that was more suited to Obi-Wan's character and personality. Not to mention that Padme and Satine are presented as friends who get along well and go on adventures together to right political wrongs, much in the same vein that Anakin and Obi-Wan go on their many military exploits together. The story sets them up as two couples who, in an a more ideal timeline, would be besties who go on double dates together. In my opinion, fandom's insistence on viewing them through the lens of 'which one is a 'morally better couple' is completely missing the point. Personally, I see them as two sides of the same coin.

Since @marvelstars' post was specifically about these two couples as they relate to the idea of commitment to the Jedi Order, I also focused on that angle. Imo, the way Obitine's relationship panned out made sense for their characters and context. Just like Anidala's makes sense for theirs. Obi-Wan and Satine met each other as young adults and had a whole year 'on the run' together before having to say their farewells, whereas Anakin and Padme first meet as children, then re-meet and fall in love over a short span of time, and then suddenly their world is at war and they are facing imminent, possibly indefinite, separation. That's why they marry while still remaining in their respective Jedi and Senator roles, because they feel it might be their only chance to have anything resembling the family they both long for. They understand that they might not survive the war. Whereas Obi-Wan and Satine had first met when Satine's world was already enmeshed in civil war, and then they parted once peace was reestablished and their lives were no longer in immediate danger. And when they meet again during the Clone Wars, it's a wholly different scenario and things have drastically changed (she is the head of a neutral system, he is already established as a general in a war she is opposed to). They are also older, in their 30s, while Anakin and Padme embody the headstrong impetuosity and passion of young love. So it's not as though Obi-Wan and Satine are going to drop everything and enter a committed relationship/marriage in that context in the same way Anakin and Padme do in theirs (when, notably, Anakin is still a padawan and about to be sent to the frontlines to fight in a war for the first time).

As mentioned above, when I was watching TCW I never thought that the purpose of showing both of these relationships in contrasting-parallel to one another was somehow to demonstrate that one was more 'sacrificial' for remaining in the Order and giving up the relationship while the other was more 'selfish' for trying to have both at the same time. Rather, what I feel the story is actually saying is something completely different. It's important to remember that both of these relationships involve a Jedi and the political leader to whom he had originally been assigned as a bodyguard. What is the significance of that? Well, I would argue it's more than just a romantic trope. When I watch Lucas-era Star Wars, I'm always aware that the characters have both an immediate role in-story as well as a symbolic function. Satine, a pacifist, can be seen to represent Peace. Padme, as a Senator, stands for Justice and the rights of the people. And what is it that Obi-Wan says to Luke all those years later? That the Jedi were 'the guardians of Peace and Justice in the old Republic'. This strikes me as hugely significant. Especially if we understand that the Jedi Order had lost its way as of the Prequels-era. While the fandom focuses on which couple is 'better' because of how their relationship affects each Jedi's respective commitment to the Order, I see it from a completely different angle. My understanding is that the Jedi's TRUE purpose (in relation to their role within the Republic) was actually to dedicate their lives to protecting Peace and Justice and those who truly upheld these ideals in the galaxy. Obi-Wan and Anakin's actual callings in life should have been to protect Satine and Padme, whom they loved. Whether this manifested in a more chivalric, courtly love scenario or an outright marriage is immaterial. Rather, what matters is that being a Jedi and dedicating their lives to these women due to their love for them was not incompatible with their role as protectors and defenders of the galaxy, but was in fact the truest expression of it. The so-called 'commitment' to the Order itself was never truly the point, and that's the tragedy of the Prequels-era. Because it was the Order that had by this point forbidden love and family, and which had embroiled Obi-Wan and Anakin and the rest of the Jedi in a war that went against their own principles. A war that, it could be argued, ultimately lead to the deaths of both Satine and Padme, and with them Peace and Justice—the very values that the Jedi were supposed to protect and serve.

[tremendouskoalachild]

now can we stop saying the show is "anti-jedi" somehow

[rose-of-red-lake]

[jaguarys]

Hey. By the way. Here's your reminder that the way you talk about the Jedi Order can and does spill over into talk of real world religions and sometimes the ways in which you talk about the Jedi betray some really concerning and alarming views of those religions!! So maybe!! Be careful about that shit!! Thanks!!

[redstuffs-ig]

star wars fans when a show doesn't lick the jedi's boots a new shine: 🤯

star wars fans when a show doesn't beat the shit out of the jedi with lead pipes: 🤯

[vashti-lives]

After vague blogging about fanfic and YA I will say that the issue of media for teens mixing poorly with all ages and adult media is not a problem exclusive to fanfic writers. 90% of the conflict in the star wars fandom stems from the fact that star wars’ YA and children’s media is to some degree canonically and philosophically incompatible with the mainline movies. In the movies the Jedi are unequivocally the heroes and we’re supposed to respect them even as they get backed into a terrible corner. They’re wise heroes doing their best.

In the media made for kids by necessity the adults of the Jedi order have to make absolutely wild and absurd decisions in order for the kid protagonists to get chances to do heroic stuff actual kids would find fun and exciting. This naturally puts their behavior at odds with the goals of the movies.

Add in that the movies don’t hold up to close reads because they’re intended to be fun summer blockbusters, and the fact that the Jedi are based on a fairly shallow understanding of a non-western collectivist lifestyle without nuclear families which is extremely foreign to western audiences and what do you get? Decades worth of discourse over whether the Jedi are actually good guys which can never be resolved because they're based on completely different ways of analyzing media. Worse, nobody can agree on what parts of star wars should be counted in the first place so even if you're analyzing things in the same style you might still be doomed.