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Episode 86 Transcript: I’m Not Doing Revenge. And Neither Are You.

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show several times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today's episode, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 4: "The End," written by Ben Edlund, directed by Steve Boyum.

C: Ben Edlund’s tirade against women in general continues on, I see.

G: Continues on. When will it ever end? A question of all time that we will find out-

C: Yeah, we'll find out. How long does Bedlund stay on? Like, he doesn't have a Season 15 episode, right, does he?

G: Oh, of course not. He's until Season 8, I think, because I'm pretty sure he wrote the last episode of Season 8. [C: It says he wrote 8.21 but I don't think he wrote "Sacrifice."] Oh, so not 22. I thought he wrote "Sacrifice," but I suppose "Sacrifice" is a Jeremy Carver because it's a Carver season. [C: Yeah.] Thoughts? Prayers? etc. [laughs]

C: Okay, I thought that the trajectory of, like, "This is a whole thing trying to convince Dean to say yes to Michael, and the lesson that he takes away is that he should talk to Sam again" is, like, nice. I hope that Endverse!Castiel gets beaten to death with, like, a bunch of raw fish. And yeah. [laughs] Those are my thoughts.

G: I do think this is a very interesting episode, but for the reasons that you mentioned last episode that you said you would not like it for, which is that "I don't care what the characterization is because it's Zachariah's conceptualization of the future instead of what actually happens," like, "This is Zachariah trying to convince Dean of something." But looking at it from that lens, I actually do find very interesting. Like, for example, the Cas thing. I don't think Cas would end up this way. [C: Yes.] But it's interesting that Zachariah thinks- not that Cas would end up this way, but that showing this to Dean will change his mind.

C: Yeah, I mean, it's 'cause Dean, like, he knows what Dean's views towards addiction are via Sam and demon blood. So it's like, "Well, Sam has to be Lucifer. Who's like, the next closest guy that we can do this to?"

G: No, but, like, it is fascinating too because Cas didn't need to be there, I think. Like, it's fascinating that Zachariah one would put Cas there.

C: I think he's playing on Dean's guilt about being the cause of [overlapping] Cas's powers, yeah, going away.

G: So it does matter to Dean that Cas is there? Like, 2009!Dean. 'Cause he looks for him. And I mean, he looks for him for powers-

C: Cas is the guy whose life he ruined the most recently.

G: Yeah, but I guess because they've been, like, very buddy-buddy with each other, I never really stopped to think about it that much. That, like, perhaps Dean is guilty about this. And also because Dean is just in a generally hapless, hopeless situation right now that I did not think it matters that much to him that he ruined Cas's life because, for all he knows, he's ruined everybody's life. [C: True.] But this episode, I feel like, cements that Dean really does give a shit about this. 'Cause, you know, we go back and forth. It's like, I mean in 5.01, he's like, "[teary] Oh, you killed my friend Cas!" And then 5.03, he's like, "Okay, you gonna die? Good. Let's go out." [C laughs] So here, I feel like this is the part where I'm like, "Oh, okay, no, he does care. It's just he is also in a very hopeless situation, that it may be difficult for him to act on it or for us to see it. But he does care that this happened to Cas."

C: But, I mean, what is that- how is that- What does it mean for him to care, though? 'Cause, like, it's just guilt because of his direct involvement. Like, that doesn't necessarily say anything about how he feels about Cas.

G: No, I mean, what I'm saying is, I didn't even buy that he was guilty for a while. [C: Mm-hm.] I was, like, "It was just what happens." And I mean, he felt sad. But feeling sad is different from feeling guilty, I believe. I don't know. I think it's a good insight on Dean's character to realize that there is this feeling of personal responsibility for Cas. Because that is something we've been saying last episode, also. That, like, he doesn't feel responsible for Cas in that way, and that's what makes it quote "work." But it's like, well, he does feel it a little bit. And I suppose that's just what happens.

C: He feels responsible when, like, Cas does something that Dean pressures him into doing, and then it causes consequences. [G: Yeah, I suppose.] But he doesn't feel responsible in terms of, like, [G: Day-to-day.] "You can run off to get killed by Raphael. Like, that's not my business. It's just when you do something I want you to do, and then it turns out badly, then I feel guilty." That doesn't really feel like responsibility for Cas.

G: That's true. He's not here being like, "You shouldn't do that, Cas!" [both laugh] He's just like, "Oh, okay." I don't know. I understand now why people are fascinated by this episode. I'm still not buying it. Like, after this-

C: I don't know why people are fascinated by this episode at all.

G: Yeah, but you hate Supernatural now, [C laughs] so you don't care about anything. [laughs] But like, me, this episode has always been just, like, "I don't understand why people like it. I don't really see the appeal that much." And I suppose I still don't see the appeal as much as other people would, but I get it now. Like, if I was someone who would be the target audience for this kind of episode, I'll be really into it.

C: Yeah, if I was more a consumer of, like, post-apocalyptic media, [G: Yeah.] I would understand the need to see characters in that situation. But I think that's where my understanding starts and ends.

G: Yeah. I mean, [laughs] we'll get into it, I think. Or maybe we won't. I'm not sure. [C laughs]

C: I did like this episode. I know I'm sounding very negative. I think I had a more fun time this episode-

G: What did you like about it? The path of like, Dean's conclusion, you liked that?

C: Yeah, I thought that that was nice. Yeah.

G: I do think- I mean, this is not a Sam episode, obviously. But I think it's a Sam and Dean episode, primarily, of course. [C: Yeah.] Which was surprising to me because I thought it was just gonna be a Dean episode, so that's fun.

C: And the Tumblrinas are under the impression that it's a Destiel episode.

G: I think it is also a Destiel episode, obviously. [C: Huh. I don't.] But I just- in the comparison of "Dean" and "Sam and Dean," it leans more on the Sam and Dean side. And I think it is a Destiel episode. Like, I think there is something here- Well, first of all, what do we define as "Destiel episode"? [laughs] I think we have already had this conversation. [C: Didn't we already have this conversation?] But I forgot. I forgot.

C: It's an episode where their relationship is the central point.

G: Oh, okay, it's not the central point, but I think it adds to the flavor of the relationship. [C: Yeah, it's like a D-plot.] Like, they're cute. They're cute, you know? [laughs]

C: Like, in the in the two conversations that they have in the present day? [G: They're cute!] Cas is cute. I agree that Cas, [both laughing] who uses they/them pronouns sometimes, is cute. But yeah.

G: No, they were cute! I mean- It is fascinating, though, because in that scene, I was like, "I don't really care about this episode that much. Let's press play." And then Cas is in that fucking side of the road, covering his ear, going, "Sorry, Dean! I can't hear you!" And I was giggling, twirling my hair. And I was, like, "Oh, maybe I do GAF." You have mentioned what you knew, right? Or have you not? [C: No.] Well, mention it.

C: Okay. What did I know about this episode? I knew that Cas was gonna say, "This isn't funny, Dean. [both] The voice says I'm almost out of minutes!" And that there would be the "I'll just wait here, then." [G: That's what he does.] So true. Yeah, and then that the main plot is that Zachariah shows Dean a potential future where he says no to Michael but Sam says yes to Lucifer, and Dean's the leader of some camp, and Croatoan and has taken over everyone, and Cas lost his grace and is addicted to prescription pills, and has orgies and lies about being some kind of shaman to get women to fuck him, and he agrees to die- Okay, what I thought was that he agrees to die for Dean, no question, but in fact, this was kept from him, so he did not really.

G: No, I think he does. I think he does know.

C: I think that he knows, but I don't know if Dean thinks he knows.

G: It's implied because he looks there. He looks with the thing, and after you see his face, and it's like, "Well, he knows he's going to die." [laughs] I think, to me. And also, he does point out immediately that, like, "Bad idea, we're gonna- it's reckless." And, I mean, that line combination of "If you don't want me select 'reckless,' maybe 'insouciant' could work." And then Dean goes, "Are you coming or not?" Then he goes, "Of course." And it's like, "Well, okay. Slay."

C: I don't know. People just say that in, like, action movies, though.

G: Yeah, but they're not gay like Dean and Cas. [laughing]

C: It doesn't mean anything. [laughs] I don't know. I just- I don't know what genre Cas thinks he's in, so I can't really- that fake!Cas thinks he's in, so I can't really speak for him.

G: Yeah, again, I don't really think of this as, like, Cas and Dean. Like, future Cas and Dean.

C: Like, we see Cas when he loses his powers in Season 9, and he's not like.

G: Yeah, no no no. It interests me, not in them, but in how present day Dean is seeing it. Like, his seeing Cas just be like, "Okay. Let's go on a suicide mission," blah blah blah. But, I mean, Cas did go on a suicide mission last episode, but I feel like there's a difference. But yeah, whatever. Let's get into it. Oh, yeah, you're still-!

C: And that- yeah, Endverse!Cas says he likes younger Dean better in some kind of a scene, and that when we see Lucifer in Sam he's slaying in a white suit and there's like, a red rose involved, and he kills Dean by stepping on his head and snapping his neck, and then when Dean comes back, he tells, Cas to never change. Those are the things I knew.

G: Did you know, even, that Sam was gonna call and say-

C: I did not.

G: Interesting. Yeah, I also did not. [both laugh] I am so sorry, everyone! [C: "And I, someone who has watched Supernatural many times..."] No, because the thing is, like, in Seasons 1 to 3, I was saying, like, "These are not the seasons I cared about, so I recall nothing about them." [C laughs] And I mean, it was kind of true. [C: And now we're in seasons you care about-] And then we go to Season 4, and it's like, "I only recall the scenes with Cas in them, and maybe the scenes with Dean in them. So what does that say about me?" [C laughs] [C: What does that say?] What does that say? Does it mean I don't care about Sam? Well, obviously, I do. Or do I? [C laughs] Which is the question in everyone's head.

C: Yeah, yeah, there's 10 Discords dedicated to this debate [G: Exactly.], and they're furiously typing right now.

G: Exactly. Well, let's get into the episode. We have a flashback sequence, that's all- that's to "Croatoan," right? Oh, the Colt, too. We're bringing up the Colt back.

C: I think the only part that was funny to me was that they continue to do the "Maybe it's best we just go our separate ways" voiceover [G laughs] over scenes that aren't Sam leaving. This time, they put that voiceover-

G: It's like they didn't even hear you complain about it last episode!

C: I know! I know! Like, hello? We're like, the premiere live reviewers of Supernatural [G laughs] and, like, they change the show every time after our episodes come out, 'cause, like, they want to make us happy. But yeah, no, this time it's over Sam standing in the road at the end of 5.01-

G: Has it been 15 years since this episode? [laughs] [C: Yeah.] It has been! Well, it's been 14 and something, because this came out in October. [C: Yeah, it was October, and we're in March right now.] Yeah, we're the live 14-year-later reviewer of Supernatural! [C laughs]

C: Mm-hm. Exactly. Is it just the visual Sam getting into a pickup truck with a random guy too confusing [G laughs] 'cause people are gonna think that the random guy is relevant? Is that what it is?

G: Yeah, they think Sam's gonna get stranger dangered, or whatever.

C: Oh, I was going with the roadhead option [G, laughing: Noo!], but that too.

G: We start with Dean getting out of his car into to go into a motel. And this is like a- He's in a city, which is fascinating to me. I feel like when we think of motels in Supernatural, it's always, like, side of the road, there's nothing on both sides, so seeing it in the city is pretty fun for me! Yeah, there's a guy outside who is a Bible-thumping guy. Literally thumping a Bible, I think. [C laughs] And he is holding this flyer that's like, "Have you thought about God's plan for you?" And he asks Dean about it. And Dean goes, "Too freakin' much, pal!" And the guy just looks at him, like, "Huh." And so Dean enters the motel. There is a nice follow-through to this because in 15.16, I think, is what it's called- whichever episode it was that Cas beats Dean up, Dean calls the fucking angels via guy who was, like, Bible-thumping also. [C: Interesting.] And I thought that was fun, like, that thread was fun, even the first time I watched it. Is there commentary to be had here that they're entering the "fringier sides of Christianity," as Zachariah said earlier? [C: I don't know. What's the commentary?] [laughs] No idea. I feel like it's not my place.

C: I mean, as an atheist, it's very much not my place. [G, laughing: I feel like it's more your place.] I have no clue what Zachariah meant by fringe Christianity. Like, Jehovah's witnesses? Is that what- I think Dean calls the guy a Jehovah's witness later. [G: Does he really?] All I know about Jehovah's witness is that Troy Barnes on Community is supposedly a Jehovah's witness, [laughs] so I can't help you out. [G laughs]

G: Well, I feel like it's holding the quote "fringier" parts of Christianity is better for an atheist to do than a Catholic to do [laughs], is something is my humble opinion.

C: Okay, [laughing] 'cause I have no power in the Christian world over fringe Christians?

G: Like, I have no power over the American Christian world [C, laughing: Yeah.], obviously. But there are, like, sects here in the Philippines of Christianity that I feel like it's not my place, so, [laughing] whatever, let's proceed. We have a very cute scene, I think, to me. Crystal thinks it's cute for Cas reasons only. [C: It is.] But yeah, Dean and Cas are calling. Yeah, Dean brings up that they're talking about the Colt. So they're looking for the Colt again. Didn't they bring it up in 5.01? Sam brought it up.

C: Yeah, I mean, Sam said that we should find the Colt, and Dean was like, [G: "I don't give a shit, so."] "Who give a fuck?" [both laugh]

G: And now he's like, "Okay, slay!"

G: I mean, Cas wants to find the Colt, I guess. Cas also brings it up in 5.02, right? 'Cause he's like, "I'm talking about, like, your plan to kill Lucifer or whatever. Well, no, we have to find God to do it!" [laughs] But I guess Cas is now like, "Fine, okay. Let's get the gun." [G laughs]

G: Yeah. But Cas can't hear Dean because he is standing on this side of a road, and there's a big big truck passing by, and it's making his audio quality quite bad. And he just goes, "I didn't- I didn't- I didn't get that!" And Dean is giggling, twirling his hair, and he goes, "You know, it's kind of funny, talking to a messenger of God on a cell phone. It's, you know, like, watching a Hell's angel ride a moped," just like in the "Bless the Telephone" AMV. What a wonderful video that is. "This isn't funny, Dean! The voice says I'm almost out of minutes!" [C exclaims] And yeah. So Dean is insisting that the demons wouldn't keep it because it could kill them, and they probably melted it already. But, I mean, it could kill the devil, so Cas says, "Let's do it! This is how we do it."

C: He calls killing the devil an "insane task." [G: He's trying to look for God!] Was this his attitude last time? Is it just 'cause the God thing is getting him down?

G: I mean, I don't think he- they ever really talked about killing the devil. More of just finding God. And maybe to Cas, it's like, "You can find God. But you can't kill the devil."

C: Wait, but Cas wants to find God to defeat Lucifer.

G: But there's a difference between God defeating Lucifer and Dean Winchester.

C: Okay, so it's just, like, "Dean, you, personally, are incapable of killing the devil, [G laughs] but as a goal, it's fine."

G: Yeah, maybe if he was talking to Sam, it would be a different conversation. [C: Very true.] Dean goes, "Okay, so where do we start?" And Cas goes, "Where are you now?" And Dean says "Kansas City," [laughs] and then he leans over the bed, like, across the bed,and gets the key on the desk, and it says, "Century Hotel room 113." And what a visual. Am I delusional for thinking this? [laughing] Truly a visual.

C: I have no idea what you're pointing out as a visual.

G: [laughing] No, like, he's on a call, and he's telling Cas what motel room he's in, and he's leaning over, like, the bed like that. [C: Sure.] And I was like, "Well, that looks pretty gay. Does that not ping their 'this looks gay' radar?" which we know they have.

C: [laughs] Yeah, no, I tried to find a source for it, and Misha Collins said it at a con, and it wasn't the producers. [laughing] It was Kim Manners, [both laughing] the late Kim Manners that he was accusing of homophobia at a con, and I think that's so funny!

G: Kim Manners is dead now! At this point, right?

C: [laughing] Yeah. And he looked old enough in the con that, like, I think Kim Manners was dead by the point that he was saying in the con that "Kim Manners told me it was too gay." so.

G: [laughing] Okay, well, they don't have- I retract my statement. They don't have the "Does it look gay?" radar now.

C: [laughing] They no longer have a "too gay" radar. [both laughing] Sorry, Kim Manners.

G: Is this too impolite? I'm so sorry, Kim Manners and Kim Manners' kin.

C: Yeah. I mean, but okay, it was still, like, execs that said that Cassie couldn't be on top during "Route 666," [G: Yeah.] and I'm sure that those people have a "too gay" radar.

G: Exactly. This is beyond their too gay radar. It's too gay times two. Cas goes, "I'll be there, immediately!" [both laugh] And Dean says, "No, because I need to eat. I need to sleep." Well, first, he says, "There's stuff I gotta do." And Cas goes, [C: "What stuff?"] squints his eyes and goes, "What stuff?" [C laughs] But yeah, he needs to sleep. So he says, "Come back tomorrow morning in four hours" or something. And Dean closes his phone. But Cas is still talking. He just goes, "Yeah, I'll just-" and as Dean hangs up, he puts down his phone and goes, "Wait here, then." And then he stands there on the side of the road.

C: Doesn't he have the game with the snake that gets longer on his phone? Like, maybe if he knew about the game with the snake.

G: He's being dramatic right now. He's being dramatic right now. In 10 minutes, his phone will be out and he'll be playing the game with the snakes.

C: Thank god. Alright. [G: Thank god.] You were saying something about how this is a famous Destiel scene because of the song?

G: I mean, not just because of the song. It was famous prior to that already, obviously, 'cause they wouldn't make a song about it if it wasn't. But this is just in general. I think this entire conversation and both scenes, as you said, of where Cas and Dean are in present times this episode, are just famous by their own right, which is fun. I think it's fun.

C: Cas said some charming things, so I understand why this would linger. [G laughs]

C: So we're later in the motel room, and Dean gets a phone call, and he answers it by saying, "Damn it, Cas! I need to sleep." [G laughs] but it's Sam? What does Sam think about this? [both laughing] Probably nothing. Or perhaps everything. Who knows? [G: Who knows?] Yeah, I mean, I think Sam is preoccupied with his own shit.

G: In a headline later, Sam goes, "Dean answers call with 'Damn it, Cas! I need to sleep,' which could mean nothing." [both laugh] which is so true!

C: Yeah, I am surprised that he called Dean. This is, like, immediately after the Lucifer dream? [G: Think so.] Like, it's quarter past 4. It's the middle of the night. I'm assuming he just woke up from the Lucifer dream.

G: Yeah, I think so. Or maybe he's been, like, pondering about it. But I think it is immediately after. Well, no, he's in the car already, so he went out to drive. [C: Yeah, to clear his head or go somewhere or whatever.] Probably to go somewhere, because it might be a bit scary to have the devil in your-

C: Yeah, you'd probably want to be in a different motel room just in case he was able to see some details of the room. Yeah. Are you surprised that he would call Dean so immediately? [G: Yes.] Like, Dean has not proven himself to be worthy of trust in this regard.

G: No no no. It's not surprise, I guess. I'm more surprised at how Dean reacts.

C: Yeah, like, Dean doesn't immediately start going batshit about it.

G: I think what it is is that if Dean wasn't Michael's vessel, he'd be like, "See, Sam? You are the devil." [C laughs] But because he is Michael's vessel, and of course, the implication of Michael's vessel vs. Lucifer's vessel are different, just fundamentally, but it's the same.

C: I mean, also, the angels are just as bad as the demons at this point to Dean, given that they were both working towards the same goal earlier.

G: Yeah. And like, to Dean specifically, he says later, right? Like, "We're like the oil and fire or whatever of this Apocalypse." [C: Yeah, "We're the vessel brothers."] [laughs] Yeah, they're the vessel others. [laughs] Why did- I completely missed, like, one syllable on that word. [C laughing] One of the vessel brothers.

C: Did you say "vessel others" or "vessel udders"? I couldn't tell. [G laughs]

G: Well, one of those words could mean everything or nothing. [C: Perhaps.] The implication is different, but because Dean is implied in the same way- implicated in the same way, he's not gonna protest that much as like, that being representative of something bad. So yeah, I understand, maybe that's the logic in Sam's head, 'cause Sam does know that Dean is Michael's vessel. [C: Right. Dean's the only person in the same boat.] And it follows through. You give it a little bit of thought, it follows through, like, of course, they're going to be a brother situation also. The vessels of Michael and Lucifer. Although the way it follows through in the technical ways is still not revealed to them until later this season. [C: Mm-hm.] I also wanted to say something real interesting to me, which is that last episode- and this episode also, but it happens later. I just wanna bring it up now. Lucifer says, "It has to be you. It has to be you." Or "It has to be Sam," right? "It always had to be." They don't ever say that about Dean, don't you feel? They never say that it has to be Dean to be Michael's vessel.

C: Well, it doesn't, because it's Adam.

G: And that's true! Like, I don't know. I find that so fun that, like, with Sam, if Sam- 'cause with Dean, it's like, they just gave up on Dean at some point. They were like, "Let's just go to Adam." But with Sam, if they can't- Lucifer can't give up on Sam, I think. It literally is just Sam.

C: Yeah, 'cause I think it's the genetics and the demon blood.

G: I find that so interesting that Dean is replaceable in this way that Sam isn't.

C: Yeah. So Sam is calling Dean, quarter past 4, about something important while he's driving. We don't get that part where we just cut to a little bit later where Dean's like, "So you're his vessel, huh? Lucifer's wearing you to the prom?" [laughs] which would be such an unnatural thing to say in a real conversation if there were sentences in between. But it's just an exposition question.

G: And it is fun that he says "wearing you to the prom," and later, Lucifer is in a prom-ish outfit. That's fun!

C: Yeah, Sam says, "That's what he said." And Dean's being very casual. He just goes, "Just when you thought you were out, they pull you back in, huh, Sammy?"

G: Sam was like, "Dean, what the fuck's wrong with you?"

C: [laughs] Yeah, he goes, "That's your response?" Yeah, 'cause he expected Dean to feel a little bit of panic or something. And Dean just says that he's "numb to the earth-shattering revelations at this point." Get over yourself, Dean. Oh, "Since I'm a vessel, it no longer matters if anyone else is a vessel, 'cause I'm so special." Like, whatever! [G laughs]

G: No, I mean, I'm on Dean's side. I think the Samgirl/Deangirl divide is growing in this podcast. [C: Uh-huh.] Can you believe it? [C: I believe it.] It truly fucking is. I also believe it. [C laughs]

C: I don't know. This seems like a bad thing, and he should be having more of a reaction, or at least be trying to lend some sympathy.

C: Well, I mean, it's just, how would you do that?

C: I mean just a "That sucks and is scary" is, like, a lot better than what Dean's saying.

G: Well, I mean it does suck, and it is scary. But like, well, I mean, Dean was gonna be Michael's vessel. It's not like Sam was like, "That sucks, Dean, and that's scary."

C: He was too busy getting choked out by Zachariah! [G laughs] He couldn't talk!

G: And he was too busy being told by Dean, "I can never trust you again anymore!" later on, so.

C: Yeah. That too. I don't remember Dean's tone very well on the "just when you thought you were out, they pull you back in." Is it like, a bitter laugh?

G: It's kind of comedic, honestly. Like, just a little bit of a laugh going. Like, "Huh. Just when you thought you were out!"

C: Mm-hm. Yeah. And I mean, it is true. Like, Sam did think he was out. Like, he was like, "I'm taking this time for myself to distance myself from all the Hell shit," and then, like, the biggest Hell shit has hit him. So Sam asks, "What are we gonna do about it?" And Dean asks, "What do you wanna do about it?" which feels just like a "not my problem" statement. Like, it could be read as a nice thing, like, "This is happening to you so, like, you should be able to have first opinion on it." But Sam is asking for advice. But yeah, Dean has just seemingly checked out of all this, which I'm not a fan of, but whatever. It doesn't matter that much. Sam says that he wants back in, and that he's "sick of being a puppet to these sons of bitches. I'm gonna hunt him down, Dean." We were talking about the 5.03 trajectory with Sam, which is that the show did seem to be saying that him taking a break from hunting was him being a coward, [laughs] right?

G: Was it? I don't know. I feel like that is one of the things that is at least a little bit handled with some complexity in this season. [C: Yeah.] Like, I don't think the show was being like, "Sam's a coward." But like, also, the show kind of, like, misses the beat in some of it. That's like, "Oh, it's either he's fully out or he's fully in and he's drinking demon blood and everything." And it's like, [laughs] "Well, those are not the only two options." But, I mean, they do address it later on. Like, it is not the only two options.

C: I don't see how Sam tapping out is "being a puppet to these sons of bitches," when like Jess!Lucifer herself was like, "You can't change. You should just go back to what you were doing before." Like, isn't excising yourself from hunting not being a puppet?

G: We've had this conversation about what Lucifer!Jess meant by that, and again, it's not about going back to hunting. It's about [C: Saying yes to Lucifer.] something being fundamentally wrong with you. Yeah. So I don't think I count that in. But there was the aspect of- I don't know. I think being a puppet here, it's more on the having no control. So like, if Sam didn't go and hunt down Lucifer, it'll be, he's just letting things happen to him instead of being proactive, which I can see why he would think that. [C: Yeah, I can see it also.] It's just a waiting game now of waiting for Lucifer to find him when he could be going out there and finding Lucifer. Like, yeah, okay, I get it.

C: Yeah. And Dean's response to this is so wacky.

G: So weird. I mean, I forgive him for this because I feel like this is the show trying to do something [C laughs] instead of whatever the fuck. Like, "We're back to revenge?"

C: Dean says, "We're back to revenge? 'Cause that worked out so well last time." How the fuck- Who reads this as revenge? It's literally, "I don't want Lucifer to possess me [G: Yeah.], so I'm gonna kill him before he can possess-" What has Lucifer even initially done that Sam would be getting revenge on him for? [G: Getting out.] I guess, like, in some way, helping orchestrate the Azazel plot that became the Ruby plot. But like, I just- Yeah, I don't know. This just doesn't seem like a revenge thing in any way.

G: This is just followthrough of the revenge thing that they're trying to do. This is Dean Winchester looking at the screen and going, [overlapping] "Here's the themes and motifs." So yeah, it did put me out a lot, this line. But, I mean, Sam's reply of "Not revenge. Redemption." How do we compare that to, "Not revenge. Justice." with Mary in 5.0- No, in 4.21.

C: Well, I mean, Sam saying redemption is also unexpected for me, 'cause I was like, "It's a practical thing. You kill Lucifer so he doesn't possess you." But, like, no, this is like, a personal thing for Sam, where he's like, "Lucifer was directly involved in the me drinking demon blood and getting tricked thing."

G: "And stopping him is me redeeming myself," yeah.

C: "Is me redeeming myself for starting the Apocalypse." And I feel like, yeah, the justice approach is just [G: Afterwards.] "Yeah, I don't want people to be dying of the Apocalypse, so I am going to kill Lucifer."

G: Yeah. [laughs] Two revenge brothers telling each other [both laughing], "We're not doing revenge!" Literally.

C: Yeah. "I'm not doing revenge, and neither are you!" And Dean calls them the dynamic duo, like, hello? You're the vessel brothers or the revenge brothers? Like, keep up to date, Dean. And Sam says, "I can do this. I can. I'm gonna prove it to you." Which, why does Sam think that they have to do this together?

G: I mean, I don't know. You can just go back in the field, Sam.

C: Yeah, Sam you were hunting, like, alone- I guess, I mean, in "Mystery Spot." You were not hunting alone when Dean was dead because you had Ruby with you most of the time.

G: I think it's just help. Like, if there's the two of them, it's gonna be easier to do, I suppose. Call Bobby!

C: Yeah, also, Dean has the knife right now. [laughs]

G: Oh, you're right. He doesn't have any weapons, Sam.

C: Yeah. And he burned all his fake IDs. [G laughs] Like, he's not the one who does all that work at Kinko's getting, like, everything lined up.

G: Yeah, go to Recto, Sam. [laughs] That's a Filipino reference. Sam should go to Recto, which is the place here in Manila where you can get fake IDs. [C: Hell yeah.] He should fly directly from wherever he is in the United States to Manila to fucking go to Recto and get fake IDs. And birth certificates! There's a lot of them there. [laughs]

C: Is this well-known enough that it's fine to-

G: Yeah, this is well-known, yeah.

C: - okay, [laughs] have on the podcast. Cool. I was like, "God, Grey's gonna reveal these people's whole thing?"

G: No, it's literally- There's places in Manila where oh, if you need to get your car fixed, you go here. If you need to buy musical instruments, you go here. [laughing] If you need fake IDs, you go here. And it's literally- It's common knowledge to everyone.

C: Okay, cool, cool, cool. But yeah, I guess Sam has no weapons. But I do think he- He says, "I'm gonna prove it to you." And he's talking about redemption. So I feel like probably an amount of it is that he's specifically back on the wanting forgiveness from Dean train that he was on in 5.01. I think that is part of why he wants to do it as a team. Dean says that whatever they do, it doesn't matter, because they're the fire and oil of the Armageddon, and that they should just stay away from each other for good to avoid having to fight as vessels or whatever. And Sam says that, like, "It doesn't have to be like this. We can fight it." And Dean says that "We can, but not together." "You think you're strong when we're together, Sam? Try weak!" [both laugh] What does he say in 4.21 again? [G: No no no-] "Strong together? We're not strong. Try weak! Pathetic!" [G laughs] And he says, "Whatever we have between us- love, family, whatever it is, they're always gonna use it against us." Fascinating that love and family are [both] separate concepts to Dean Winchester.

G: But I agree, so it's fine. [C: It makes sense, yeah.] It makes sense for him, so it's fine.

C: I meant "fascinating" as in from a character analysis standpoint, [G: Oh, yeah yeah yeah.] not in a bad writing standpoint. [G: Yeah yeah yeah.] It's very him saying he's alone in 5.03.

G: Dean Winchester, many things are going on in that head, yeah. I mean, Dean is right here, right? Like, I think Dean is right here that they should just not- But I don't know. I'm not saying it is the wrong decision to hang out again [both laugh] later on, be buddies again later on. But like, I do think here, one, I don't understand why Sam would want this. So two, when Dean is like, "Well, we shouldn't." I'm like, "Yeah, that makes sense." But I guess because they have to look out for each other and blah blah blah and have to keep each other human. I understand the logic of the episode. But here, like, I'm like, "Well, he's right." [laughs] I understand the logic up to this point, and also later. But up to this point, specifically, I understand that.

C: I mean, yeah. Yeah, I- I don't. Okay, so you're- Why do you think Dean is right?

G: I think he's right in the same way where Bobby was like, "You have to put aside the family drama just to fucking do the Apocalypse." Obviously not in the way Bobby meant it, 'cause the way Bobby meant is mind-boggling. [C laughs] But there's still so much going on between them. Like, there's still so much baggage here, and just maybe it's not the best thing to enter the Apocalypse with all that in mind is how I feel.

C: But that's hard to get over on your own, though.

G: Well, yeah. And I've said earlier, too, in the Season 4 episodes where it's like, "They have to reconcile now, because if they reconcile later, you will have the retrospective analysis of the situation, and it's difficult- it's more difficult to have equal footing," blah blah blah. Which is what happens in the show, like, up until this point, right? [C: Mm-hm.] Yeah, I mean, what I'm saying is, I understand why Dean would do this, and I don't think he's wrong for it right now. I also understand why he does what he does later, and I don't think he's wrong for that, either. [C: Yeah, okay.] I want to bring up something, which is that Dean's wearing the green jacket this episode. And last episode, he was wearing it also, and you brought it up. I am wondering what it means. 'Cause like, it does matter what they wear, I feel like. [C: It's the same day.] No, no, no, I just mean, like, you brought it up with relation to-

C: Is it the 15.18 jacket? I thought we decided the colors were different.

G: No, but, like, the look is the same. And it's like, we know that when he wears the leather jacket, it means, like, "Oh, this is the daddy issues episode." [laughs] Let's not say "daddy issues" because you hate that line. [laughs] Or do you? I still am not- [laughs] Let's not get into it.

C: I'm fine with the phrase. [G: Let's not get into it.] Especially when we apply it to Dean, but yeah, [both laugh] let's not get into it.

G: But yeah. Like, is the green jacket supposed to represent hopelessness? Like, what does the color green represent in Supernatural when Dean is wearing it?

C: We've only seen him wear this jacket two times, [G: I know!] so it's just to show it's the same day.

G: But I will continue to look out for it in the future, I feel like. [C: Yeah, if we it again, I might have an idea.] Because he also wears something, I think, akin to this in Purgatory, and that does make me wonder if they are trying to-

C: Well, we'll never know because the coloring in Purgatory is so horrible that-

G: Yeah, he could be wearing a rainbow jacket in that one, and we'll never know! [both laugh] [C: Exactly.] He could be wearing tie-dye, yeah. God, imagine if Dean wore a tie-dye anything. I think he will combust spontaneously.

C: I mean, Jensen Ackles would refuse to put it on. He would quit on the spot.

G: I guess goes back to sleep, and he wakes up, and everything is different. He's in a run-down place, and he looks out the window, and everything outside is also run-down. We are in the future, baby! The future being, [laughs] in fact, 2014. [both laughing] [C: God.] Absolutely hilarious! I was confused for a little bit because I thought- I was, like, "Oh, it's been on quarantine since 2014, and then later, we'll learn that it's 5 years after 2014, and it started in 2014." So yeah, I was completely misunderstanding this situation, like, immediately, until I think I was like, "Oh, no no no! Like, it started-" I- whatever. It's so bullshit. Everything's horrible. [C laughs] Well, Dean exits the motel. He's walking through the city. There's graffiti everywhere. There's- well, that's not the most important part. The most important part is that cars are turned over and everything's in shambles. But also, there's graffiti everywhere of the word "Croatoan." [laughs] But I don't think he notices it until later. [C: He doesn't notice it, yeah.] He sees a little girl, [both laughs] and we know it's a little girl because he goes, "Little girl. [C, laughing: "Little girl?"] Little girl." And it's such a funny thing to say. Like, it's such a, like, "they're trying to creep us out" thing by saying the "little girl," which sounds stupid as fuck! It sounds so stupid! [C: Yeah.] I feel like if I was in this situation, I would go, "Hey, kid! Hey, kid!"

C: Yeah, I'd say "kid" also.

G: Not "Little girl? Little girl?" And like, why say "little"? Like, just say, "Hey, girl" or whatever. No, "Hey, girl" is not-

C: [laughing] I don't think you should say "Hey, girl." [both laughing] That's different.

G: Just say, "Hey, kid!" But no, they're trying to do the whole like, "Here's a little girl, and she's gonna hurt Dean, and woo, isn't that so creepy?" [C: Yeah.] But yeah, it's not that creepy. He approaches the girl and says, like, "You know it's kind of creepy that you're not responding, right?" And the girl, like, tries to attack Dean with a knife or a glass, but something, and [laughs] Dean just smacks her. And she falls to the ground, like, face-first. And yeah, Dean notices the Croatoan people start showing up, and they're like, seemingly cornering him. And then we have a chase. Have you heard about the whole thing about this chase and the behind the scenes? [C: No, I haven't.] Have you come across it?

C: Were people injured?

G: No, no, no. It was just like- 'cause it was a chase, and they wanted to make it look realistic that, like, Dean is running, and these people are running as well, but they needed Dean to have a lead, so they were like, thinking about how to make it so that the others would run seemingly normally, but Dean can still be ahead. And so they were trying to do that, and then they filmed the scene and Jensen Ackles, apparently, was just a really fast runner that they didn't have to do anything else. [C: Okay.] He was just such a fast runner. And I had that in mind while watching this episode, and honestly, I think it's a lie. [both laugh] Like, I think they were lying about it.

C: [laughs] They made that up for his reputation?

G: Because if it was true, they did not do a good job utilizing it because I feel like there's no single, like, shot, really, that utilizes that fact. I mean, I understand. It's because they probably were thinking about camera placements with "and we have to manipulate it to make it look real" in mind. So they weren't thinking, like, "Oh, but Jensen is a real fast runner, so let's put him- let's put an above shot or something that'll really really show it." But the cuts were so- yeah, and everything, that, like, I was like, "Oh, they doctored this." But apparently, they didn't. Apparently, he's a really fast runner. So I don't know. I remember that post because it calls him, like, "Really fast, like a gazelle." [C laughs] And I was like, "Well, that's- that's a bit of an exaggeration, I believe. But okay, well, maybe it's not. Who knows?" [C: Who knows?] But anyway, eventually, Dean gets cornered on a chain link fence, and then suddenly, [laughs] tanks come in [C laughs] and start shooting at the Croatoans. And he ducks down and hides. And there's this part where it's like, shot-shot-shot-shot-shot, and then a soldier pauses to play music. And it's like, you know, American music, American rock, whatever. And then the shots keep on firing. And I was like, [laughs] "Look at this fucking American fantasy bullshit." [C laughs] It literally fucking is. So what is the logic here? [C: Behind the music?] No, not the music. Like, the entire situation. So you have the government. These are government people, right? Like, these soldiers. [C: Yes, I think so.] They're government military. [C: Yes.] And Camp Chitaqua is not affiliated with this group.

C: [laughing] Yeah, it's just a fringe thing that's like, right nearby that the government doesn't care about.

G: How? It's like- it's a different quarantine area? Is that what we're supposed to believe?

C: I- the quarantine areas are like, areas with high Croatoan infection density, though, right?

G: I mean- sorry, sorry. I just mean, like, they're in a different pocket of place that's not infected yet, or what? 'Cause that's the only conceivable thing I can think of.

C: Yeah, I mean, I think the fenced-off place is where all the infected people are.

G: Yeah. So Dean comes in, and what? It's a different location? Or they're also just inside that place? Where's Camp Chitaqua? Where the fuck is it? And also, Dean is in Kansas City. Where the hell is Bobby's house? Isn't it in Sioux Falls? [C: Yeah.] Is that near? So he walked to Sioux Falls?

C: Sioux Falls is in South Dakota. Let me look on the maps how far that is from Kansas City.

G: It's a 5 hour 24 minute drive. [C laughs] How the hell did he get there?

C: Or 137 hour walk. Did he steal a car? Probably, he just stole a car, right?

G: Yeah, but are the roads serviceable? I was wondering about-

C: I guess. No, you're right. He had to drive to Camp Chitaqua, so it was not right next door to the quarantine area. [G: Yeah.] I totally forgot about the Bobby's house thing.

G: No, he drove to Bobby's first, and we're assuming that Camp Chitaqua is near Sioux Falls, I think. Or in that area. So it's a different place, and it's not reached by the government.

C: In the transcript, it says that Dean hotwires a car, and then we see him driving, and then Zachariah talks to him, [G: Oh my god, you're right! There was a hotwiring scene.] and then he shows up at Bobby's house. [laughs] So that explains that.

G: He did not walk for 137 hours, yeah. [C laughs]

C: After Dean escapes the quarantine area-

G: He "hotwires a conveniently located, conveniently fueled car," [both laugh] as the transcript says.

C: Someone in this transcript is throwing shade.

G: Someone in this transcript is asking the same questions that we are.

C: Yeah. And the thing that surprises him is that a sign outside of the quarantine area says that "This area is no entry by order of acting regional command, August 1, 2014," so it's at least 5 years in the future.

G: So how is- when did it start? When did the thing start? Because the way Cas talks about it, "A year ago I broke my foot. I was laid up for two months," I thought they were already here at that point. But I mean, here as in Camp Chitaqua. So when did the virus start? And also, it's still 2014?

C: I think pretty quickly.

G: It's quickly after [both] 2009. Okay, yeah. How do they still have supplies? Are they growing chickens in this place?

C: Well, okay, like, is the US the only Croatoan-affected country?

G: No, it went to Australia, right? [C: It went to Australia, right.] And also, who was still printing the fucking newspaper? [laughs]

C: I mean, I think that people would be focusing a lot on the news during a time of crisis.

G: Yeah. But usually, when that happens, I think the radio is the most efficient way to produce it, and not the fucking newspaper physically that you need to deliver places.

C: I mean, some people can't hear or whatever. Like, I get putting some amount of effort into the physical newspaper.

G: No, but I'm talking about the delivery of the newspaper. How do you get to places-

C: Well, Zachariah shows up with the newspaper. Like, we don't know they were delivered. Maybe they were just in a big stack outside of the printing house.

G: How are they sending out reporters to be like, "Hey, so are there Croa-?" [laughing] How is the journalism industry, that is currently dying, surviving in this fucking apocalypse?

C: I mean, I don't find it that questionable. Like, someone in Australia gets it, and the people who don't get it call, like, some journalists, and are like, "Oh my god! Someone got it!" And then they print it.

G: I highly doubt that a priority would be calling a journalist [laughs] when you're in such situations. [C: Why wouldn't it be?] But okay, maybe so. Maybe so. It's a way to contact the government, ideally, [C: Yeah.] going through the press. Yeah.

C: Or, and I mean, the press would also be talking to the government, and the government would be trying to spread- like, the government would want this to be printed in all the newspapers so that everyone's aware.

G: No, but okay. What date was the Zachariah newspaper? 'Cause it could have been, like, at the beginning of the Croatoan, and now-

C: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I didn't look.

G: Yeah. Let's not get into this fucking fakeass apocalypse logic.

C: Yeah. So Dean's driving, but he can't get any cell service or any radio signal, so yeah, all the towers got fucked. And Zachariah shows up in the car with a newspaper. He reads off some headlines: "Croatoan pandemic reaches Australia, "President Palin defends bombing of Houston," there's no more sports because Congress revoked the right to group assembly. I think this is meant to be, like, recent news because Zachariah comments on, like, [G: What the Congress is?] yeah, like, "What's left of Congress, that is." That seems like, current.

G: Present, yeah. How are they just recently [C: Revoking the right-] banning sports? [laughs] Yeah.

C: Yeah, I mean, people could have acted faster during COVID, too. I get it.

G: But we are to assume that this started shortly after 2009. [C: True.] [laughs] It's been five years.

C: I mean, yeah, I don't know. [laughs] Sports are so important to keep the American spirit alive. Zachariah explains what he found Dean via the- what Dean calls the "Bible freak" outside the motel. They've been, like, handing Dean's picture out to these people. And Dean demands that he gets sent back to his time, but Zachariah says that he needs to marinate here for three days in order to understand that his choice to say no to Michael has consequences. And then he leaves.

G: I can't believe they had Zachariah create, like, a special fantasy universe where Dean is wrong. [both laugh] I mean, literally-

C: That's the universe also, but- Wait, sorry, you should finish your joke. I don't think I get it yet.

G: No no no, it's just like, in the universe of Supernatural, Dean is always right, [C: That's true.] and Zachariah had to create a very special fantasy universe where Dean is wrong, according to the narrative. Like, slay!

C: I mean, I think we're supposed to read this as the real future, it's just that I am incapable of doing so because of the inconsistencies in characterization.

G: No, I don't think- I mean, I don't think so. I mean, Zachariah says later that, like, "The time for tricks is over," or whatever. [C: What?] But like, who give a shit about what Zachariah says? Like, Dean asked Zachariah, like, "Is this all jokey-jokey-jokey?" And Zachariah says, "No jokeys!" [both laugh] So-

C: So we're supposed to believe that this is the real future.

G: Well, if we are to believe Zachariah, which I don't, this is the real future. But I don't, so I don't think it is.

C: Yeah, it's like, I don't think it is, either. But I think that that the writers intended-

G: No. [C: Really?] No, I don't think so. [C: Huh. Really? Why?] We're supposed to doubt Zachariah, I feel like. [C: Are we? But-] I mean, I don't know what the writers intended.

C: People just don't lie in Supernatural unless they, like, have a big reveal at the end that they lied. You know what I mean?

G: I don't know. So you think this is quite like Mary and John and, like, Dean going back to that? This is that, in the future? [C: Yeah.] Okay.

C: I think that is how we're meant to read it.

G: I think it's just because we know what the future looks like, and it don't look like this, so it's hard to think so.

C: Well, it's 'cause different choices were made.

G: I know, but still. There was an Apocalypse Universe in Season 13 that I forgot all details about on why it was like that, so [laughs] I don't know.

C: Yeah. I mean, was there like a Croatoan thing there? [G: I truly do not know.] There wasn't an Apocalypse!Sam or an Apocalypse!Dean, right? [G: Yeees?] So it makes sense that Sam got possessed by Lucifer and then killed Dean in that universe, or whatever.

G: So that one is a continuation? I mean, I don't know why I'm asking you, but I don't know.

C: I mean, I don't know anything about it, but I could- Like, if we find out later that it's a continuation of the current universe, [G: That would make sense.] I wouldn't be surprised. [G: But there was a Cas there, who was German!] Wait, wasn't that the one where- I thought that was the universe where John and Mary never fuck. Was that what it was?

G: No. Was it? Ah, I don't know. Okay.

C: I guess you could look it up.

G: [laughing] I don't want to. I really don't want to. Let's just proceed with our lives and have everyone who has watched Supernatural-

C: This is gonna bother me for the next twenty years that it'll take for us to get to Season 13!

G: Yeah, but it will also bother all our listeners, and that means they will continue to listen [laughs] [C: No?] until Season 14.

C: Also, Apocalypseverse is- it starts in Season 12, doesn't it?

G: Season 13. No! It starts in Season 13.

C: The end of Season 12? "The Watchtower" or whatever? Isn't there gray coloring?

G: No, I mean, it starts there, but Mary just gets transported there, but we don't see it yet.

C: Okay. Okay. I guess we still don't know if this is the real feature. I'm of the opinion that the writers think it is but that I think it isn't. It's up for interpretation. Dean goes to Bobby's house, and it's empty and trashed. And then he goes in and he goes, "Oh, no!" 'Cause Bobby's wheelchair is tipped over, and there's bullet holes in it. What did they do with his body afterwards?

G: I don't know. Maybe it decomposed, and Dean was also looking at bones below as well. He just didn't bother to pick it up.

C: [laughs] Maybe so. He opens some hidden mantle compartment where Bobby's journal is, and in there is a photo of Bobby with Cas. And [both laughing] they're all like, holding guns and posing.

G: [laughs] Yeah. And it zooms into Cas before it zooms in to Camp Chitaqua, the symbol.

C: Yeah. Okay, so, [laughing] Bobby died in his house. [G: Yeah.] So he went over to the camp, [G, laughing: He went back.] he went and posed with a gun, and he was like, "Thanks for letting me visit, guys. I'm going back to my house." And then he got shot to death. [G, laughing: I don't-] I mean, I guess I understand if he's like, "I still like my house, and I wanna stay in my house and run the hunter network out here but like, I'll come over to visit," but-

G: [laughing] But why is he out there taking pictures over there? [C: Yeah. I don't-] With a gun! Like, okay.

C: Like, he helped with the setting up of the camp, but he was like, "I don't wanna stay here," so they're posing in front of the sign after they first set it up [G: With guns.] and he's like, "Alright, good work, boys. I'm off." I still find it quite silly, though.

G: You like Cas's beard, don't you? [C: I-] Have you changed your mind?

C: It was hot in images, but [G: In action.] now that I have heard him speak and act, it's no longer hot, yeah.

G: I think, honestly, that's what I feel. Because I've always been averse to this look, but maybe not the look itself. Maybe it's the association of everything with it. [C: Mm-hm.] The implications, etc.

C: Yeah. Dean drives over to Camp Chitaqua. There's like, a fence, and then there's a bunch of people, who are all men, with guns who are on like, the lookout for intruders. Dean sneaks around and he sees the Impala, and it's all fucked up. And [G: He goes, "Oh, no, Baby!"] he goes, "Oh, Baby, no!"

G: "Baby, no! No, Baby!" [C laughs] Dean fucks this car.

C: Yeah. Yeah. Those exhaust pipes do get tired out sometimes.

G: Ew! Don't say that!

C: What? What does he fuck of the car, then?

G: No, it's just a general concept! [laughing] We're not gonna go into specifics.

C: But the jokes are all about exhaust pipes! That's the- [G: Is it really?] Remember the- [laughing] the Supernatural version of the fucking, like, the homophobic sperm comic, where, like, there's like, two sperm, and one of them is like, "I can't wait to like, make a baby that like, can vote for Biden," and the other one says, "No, dude we're in some guy's ass," but then the Supernatural girlies edited it to say, "No, dude we're inside the exhaust pipe of a 1967 Chevy Impala"? You've seen that. [G: Hell yeah.] He's like, reaching towards the Impala. But then someone shows up behind him and [overlapping] knocks him out.

G: We pan out. It's Dean. [C: It is Dean from 2014.] With a deeper voice and a military jacket.

C: Yeah, cool it, George W. Butch, or whatever that post said. [G laughs]

G: I love that post so much! [C: It's pretty good.] Literally, when I'm wearing a very masc outfit, and I put on a guy perfume, which I very rarely do, I'm like, "Cool it, George W. Butch!" [both laugh] [C: So true.] So true!

C: Also, I take back what I said about the jacket meaning nothing. I thought you were saying that 2009!Dean is wearing it, but actually, you meant 2014!Dean is wearing it.

G: [laughs] No, I'm not. [C: Oh.] But it is fascinating, too that here, after Dean wakes up in future times, he puts on a another jacket, so it's a blue one now. And his green jacket is underneath it. And Dean 2014 is wearing the green jacket- a green jacket. And I do- like, it is, like, a hopelessness thing, I think, still.

C: Yeah, the transcript calls the jacket "military issue." [G: Yeah, it's a different one.] Yeah, I think that that jacket is just like, "He's in soldier mode now."

G: Yeah. I will need to get more evidence in future episodes. I will take a look at every single time Dean is wearing something green. [C laughs] [C: Cool!] I mean, it does complement his look, I believe. Don't tell anyone I said that, but it looks good in his, like, hair and skin tone and eyes. [laughs] Don't tell anyone I said that!

C: Okay, I won't!

G: So we are in, well, Camp Chitaqua now, inside, like, their headquarters or whatever. And Dean- how are we going to fucking discuss- like, how are we separating Dean from Dean future? [C: Just Dean and future Dean?] Let's just get Dean and Dean future. Okay. So Dean is tied up and, like, handcuffed inside the room, and future Dean is over on the other side. He is butching it up! [laughs] His voice is so low! It's so low. It's kind of crazy. I mean, why? It's just to show like, gruffness?

C: He had five more years of voice training, but yeah.

G: So he said that he tested him with silver, salt, holy water, which is- didn't they do that with Adam, and then Adam still turned out to be a ghoul? So, like, obviously, there's other things that you ought to do, Dean. Have you forgotten about Adam, Dean? You've forgotten about your brother, Dean? [C laughs] [C: Yeah, I think he did.] I literally think he did. Like, I think he will continue to forget about Adam until time immemorial. And he also says that Dean has all of the lockpicks and weapons and everything that future Dean carries. So he's like, "What are you? Can you explain what you are and the resemblance, too?" And Dean says, "It's Zachariah. And he sent me here, five years into the future!" And future Dean is saying that he wants to talk to Zachariah, but Dean is, like, "Well, I don't know. I don't know what to do." Future Dean asks if there's any way that Dean can actually prove it. Like, "Tell me something that only the two of us would know or something." And what Dean says is when they were 19, "Rhonda Hurley made us try her panties, and they were pink and satiny. And you know what? We kind of liked it!"

C: I don't have any thoughts about that line. [G: I also don't have any.] I know people care about it, but.

G: I paused because I know people care about it, but [laughs] I don't have any other comments.

C: I mean, if I had anything to say it would just be about like, how that shouldn't be like, [G: The thing that you are most- yeah.] a thing that's so embarrassing that, like, you keep secret from everybody else. I mean, if you don't wanna talk about, like-

G: I don't think it's delivered as embarrassing.

C: Okay. What do you think it is treated as?

G: It's just like, it's a private thing. You don't sleep and tell. "Sleep and tell"? You don't kiss and tell.

C: But this is about him, mostly. This isn't about Rhonda Hurley.

G: But it's still- the way it is portrayed is like, a sexual thing, right?

C: Oh, no, I mean, I agree that it's a sexual thing. But okay, isn't "You don't kiss and tell: about, like, respecting the other person's privacy?

G: I mean, yeah, you're right. I think, to me, it's also [laughs] "I just don't wanna talk about having sex." Does Dean feel that?

C: I think Dean would talk about having sex.

G: I don't think so. [C: No?] No.

C: Okay. But like, there is a reason that this was singled out. [G: Yeah, of course, of course.] Like, if he never talked about having sex, it would be like, "We had sex with a woman named blank," and it's like, "Damn! I never tell anyone the names of the women I have sex with!" So yeah, this is-

G: No no no, of course. This is more like, I wouldn't classify it completely as "he's ashamed of it" just because of the way it's delivered, also, was like, tongue-in-cheek.

C: I don't think he delivers it as it's something to be ashamed of, but I think he-

G: It's just not something he would bring up around other people, is the way it's portrayed, which are different things.

C: Yeah. Yeah, it's like, I think it's just portrayed like "It's kind of weird!" [G: "But I did like it," yeah.] Yeah.

G: I mean, this is coming from a guy who thought, like, the kinkiest thing he could do, and he shouldn't, is like, be slapped around by a girl wearing a Zoro mask. [C laughs] So, I don't know. [C: Yeah. Like, that's nothing, bro.] Like, okay. Slay! I don't know. This convinces future Dean, and then he stands up and he goes over to a table and he starts cleaning/cocking his gun. [both laugh] Is that the proper term? [C: Um, is he pointing it at things?] No, he's like, doing the click-click. The only reason I'm bringing this up is because this episode is full of clicky AMV moments, and this is one of them. Like, when he's like, fixing up his guns, it's very clicky AMV.

C: I think cocking your gun is about pointing it and not about-

G: No, it's just doing the- tut-tut-

C: No, wait, it is doing the thing. No, you're right. It is pulling back the hammer. I've been reading everything wrong my entire life.

G: Yeah. When you're jerking off the gun, [laughs] you're cocking it, yeah. Every single time they show a clip from the clicky AMV, I will go, "Just like in the clicky AMV" for real. Dean is asking about what's happening, and it's just, you know, it's Croatoan, blah blah blah. He asks about Sam, and future Dean falls silent. And he just goes, "Well, there was a heavyweight showdown in Detroit, and from what I understand, Sam didn't make it." Dean asks- I do find this question fascinating. "You weren't with him?" Aww! It did make me feel an emotion. Future Dean says, "No, me and Sam, we haven't talked in, hell, five years." which, I think from this moment, Dean should be aware that, like, "Oh, it means Sam is still quote 'alive' in some way, he just got possessed." [C: That's true.] But I don't know. Maybe, I think, a part of Dean just would never have expected that of Sam. [C: Saying yes?] Yeah, like, perhaps Dean would never think that Sam would say yes, and so it just didn't cross his mind. But there is also the implication that because future Dean says, "From what I understand," he's unsure.

C: Yeah, like, he doesn't know if Sam's dead or not.

G: Yeah. Dean asks too, right? Like, "Did you never try to look for him?" [both] Yeah. And future Dean says, "I don't know. Like, I have other things going on." So true! [C: Yeah, he said, "IDGAF."] Yeah, he said, "I have a podcast empire to run, Dean!" [both laugh] He goes out to do stuff, and he leaves Dean tied up, and Dean was like, "You're just gonna leave me here?" And future Dean says, "Yup!" and he heads out.

C: He says he "has a camp full of twitchy trauma survivors out there," which, like, implies that that informs how he leaves, but I don't think that [G: He literally doesn't, yeah.] [laughs] he is being trauma-sensitive in the way that he leads.

G: I mean, he explains it later to Dean that, like, they just have different standards now. [C: Yeah.] 'Cause Dean asks this exact question that you're asking later.

C: Right, the "You don't think that, like, shooting a guy in front of everyone right inside the camp could have like, upset some people?"

G: "- traumatized them even more?" Yeah. But future Dean has an answer. I do find here that, like, he's saying that, like, "There's an apocalypse hanging over their head," which kind of implies that it's not happened yet. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, I guess. But it has, so. I don't know.

G: I mean, Supernatural is so ungodly funny, because every single time, it's like, I've said this to you. [C: "The Apocalypse is about to happen!"] In Season 4, it's like, "The Apocalypse is coming! We have to stop the Apocalypse! Oops! We didn't!" [both laughing] And Season 5 is, "The Apocalypse is coming! We have to stop the Apocalypse!" the entire season. It's literally the entire season. The last episode of the season is about how the Apocalypse was stopped! Like, okay! I thought the Apocalypse is starting in 4.02!

C: Yeah. I don't know, man. They keep moving the goalposts.

G: It's because doing the actual Apocalypse too much. Like, how are you even gonna show that? Speaking, in terms of "How are you even gonna show that?" the editing for this episode is wonderful with the Dean and future Dean. Good for them.

C: That's true. They would have had to edit that, good point.

G: Didn't they submit this to the Emmy's for Best Editing or whatever? [C: Did they?] They did.

C: Well, how did it do?

G: I mean, obviously, it didn't win any Emmy's. [C laughs] Because if it did, we would constantly be talking about Emmy-winning-

C: People would be saying "Emmy-winning show Supernatural" in every joke post.

G: Yeah. Yeah. They won- Did they ever win GLAAD? [C, laughing: The GLAAD award?] It was just GLAAD-nominated.

C: I think they were just nominated. [G: Yeah.] Let me check that.

G: GLAAD-nominated, Emmy-submitted show Supernatural. We already had this discussion before. I severely doubt it happened.

C: Oh, yeah, no, it was nominated, and it lost every time. And of course, most importantly, was that in 2014, it lost to an episode of Elementary, which I remember.

G: Yeah! 2014 being the Charlie episode. Yeah. [C: Yes.]

G: And then the one prior is the one where the gay couple is [both laughing] playing Sam and Dean in a LARPing situation. And the one before is the "gay love can pierce through the veil of death and save the day." [C: Yeah.] Wonderful.

C: Yeah, god. I just- The state of things that [G: I can't believe-] "Go be gay for that poor dead intern" was like, "This is the height of positive gay representation on our television today."

G: [laughing] I cannot believe that this is it. Like, when- How is this winning an award? [laughs] I mean, it didn't, it didn't actually win an award.

C: Oh, and yeah, actually, I think the Wincest cosplayers is even worse [laughs] as a "This is the best we get." [both laugh] Wow.

G: Like, Cas didn't even get nominated! But okay, fine, whatever. [C: What time.] Whatever! And then Dean, who is just left there, gets, like pries out a nail- a rusty nail, maybe, [C: Maybe.] out of the floorboards and uses it to uncuff himself. Well, maybe this is the actual [both laugh] tetanus thing that killed him in Season 15.

C: [laughs] Yeah, very slowly. Cas heals him over and over until he can't, yeah.

C: Dean heads out, and Chuck is here! Oh my god, hi, Chuck!

G: Yeah. I love Chuck. I do love Chuck. [C: Yeah, I do enjoy seeing him.] Ugh. Why is he ever gonna become God? Fuck this stupid baka life, or whatever people say. [C laughs]

C: If he and Sam had dated like they would have if Supernatural was a better show and really wanted to win those GLAAD awards, then he wouldn't be God.

G: Would they have a terrible breakup, or would they be together for so long, it's been so long, baby, we're fireproof?

C: I think they'd be fireproof.

G: They would be fireproof? [C: Yeah.] Just like Aziraphale and Crowley in the playlist I made? That makes sense.

C: Yeah. I never clicked on that one, sorry.

G: You should have! There's a lot of corny-ass songs on there.

C: I'm not going to listen to One Direction, no matter what package you wrap it in. [both laugh] Chuck says- Well, he's talking to Dean like he's the leader of the camp, which, as far as Chuck knows, he is. So he's talking about supplies. They're low on perishables and hygiene. "What should we do?" And Dean goes, "I don't know. Like, maybe [both] share?" [both laugh] Chuck says that, "Wait, aren't you supposed to be out on a mission right now?" And Dean is a bad liar about it. And then a woman named Risa comes up and tries to hit him. And Risa is Filipino. [laughs]

G: I didn't even think to look it up, but Crystal did, and yeah, she's Filipino. Hell yeah!

C: She is Filipino. Hell yeah, but also, not hell yeah, given the situation.

G: What I was thinking about when Crystal informed me of this was that was the many- and I mean many- like, Reddit posts about how "How is it that Dean loves Busty Asian Beauties, but, like, there's not a single Asian woman in the repertoire of women that he sleeps with?" And apparently, there is! Apparently, there fucking is. Let's kill Dean Winchester.

C: Yeah. How many Asian women have been on Supernatural? [G: One in-] There was Nancy and there was Maggie, and those were both in Season 3.

G: Who are these people? Who are these people?

C: Maggie, one of the Ghostfacers. [G: Yes.] Nancy's the virgin in "Jus in Bello." Was she Asian?

G: Is she Asian? [C: Not sure.] I think we thought she was Asian, and we were like, "No, I think she's Latina."

C: Okay. Yeah, she's she's Mexican and Puerto Rican, so she is not, as far as we know, Asian. Okay. [G laughs] So we had one other Asian woman on the show.

G: Well, does this matter? It matters because of the further context of Asian women in Supernatural. If there wasn't, I don't think we would- yeah.

C: Well, yeah, 'cause the point was like, "Why doesn't Dean have Asian women girlfriends?" and it's that there's only been one other Asian woman on the show so far. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] And so like, half of the Asian women on the show are women that Dean slept with. [G laughs]

G: Yeah, if you look at it from that perspective, it sends a very different story.

C: Yeah, there is a high Dean sleeping with Asian women rate. [G sighs] [G: Well.] Yeah. I'm sure we've missed someone. If we've missed someone, someone should email us or ping us. I know in "Changing Channels" the woman in the bikini that shows up briefly in the sitcom, I think, is Chinese, so. [G: Is that true?] I think I looked it up before in the past. [G: I don't recall.] Okay, I'm gonna go on "Changing Channels" IMDb, but like, scroll down to the bottom before I see the number.

G: I think, for me, there is already a perception of like, "foreign," so perhaps I have a lesser ability to it to, like, immediately think about it. You know what I mean? Like, there's like, a hierarchy of identities, and for me, like, the hierarchy of "American" supersedes quite a lot of things. Do you understand what I'm saying? [C: Yeah.] So I have a less tendency to remember Asian people in- especially in Supernatural, where the whole point of it to me is that it's American. Like, if it's another show, I'd probably remember.

C: Her name is Beatrice King. Yeah, her mom is Chinese and Spanish, the girl on the bikini in "Changing Channels." [both laugh] So yeah, no, actually, high rate. High rate [G: High.] of sexualized Asian women in Dean's vicinity on Supernatural. [G: Yeah.] I think just a lot of them are mixed race, so like, the Redditors couldn't tell. But I recognize a fellow Asian when I see one. [both laugh] [G: Yeah.] Yeah. Anyway, that was a long tangent. But anyway, yeah, Risa's here, and she's Filipino, and she tries to hit Dean. And Dean's like, "Whoa! Geez! Easy, lady!" I hate when Sam or Dean calls people "lady" on Supernatural. It always feels like they're dismissing their feelings. And Dean is, I guess, right now. [G: Dean is, yeah.] So Risa's angry. She says, "You spent the night in Jane's cabin last night, didn't you?"

G: I did appreciate that when Dean goes, "Easy, lady," Chuck goes, "[whispered] It's Risa."

C: Yeah, that's true. [laughs] Chuck is drinking an amount of respect women juice.

G: Yeah. But I think there's also an implication that he likes Risa [C: Yes.] because he goes, "Hi, Risa!" at the end.

C: Yes. Yeah, that is part of it. So I guess he does not necessarily respect women. Dean goes like, "What? Did I?" [laughs] and Chuck nods. Chuck is trying to homewreck Dean and Risa so he can move in. And Risa says, "I thought we had a 'connection,'" and she puts quotes around the word "connection," which means that Dean was the one who [both] said that to her that he felt something emotionally. Probably just to get her to sleep with him more. So that's a wonderful thing to think about. And Dean is sort of laughing, and he goes, "Well, I'm sure that we do." Like, die. [laughs] Die.

G: I mean, how is he supposed to react here? Because it's not like it's him!

C: Yeah. I would just be like, "Sorry," I think. [laughs] I'd just say "sorry." What do you think you would say, [laughs] in the scenario that would definitely happen where you- yeah.

G: [laughs] What I would say? I would say, "There's been a misunderstanding!" and it will make Risa much, much angrier. [C, laughing: More angry? Yeah.] But I'm like, "But I'm telling you the truth! There is a misunderstanding!"

C: Yeah, "I'm not the Dean who did that! I'm actually, like, him from the past, earlier? I don't know who you are!"

G: "I am not the person that I was yesterday!" [both laugh]

C: Yeah. "The Dean you knew is not the Dean standing before you right now! [G laughs] I've changed! Anti-changed!" So she's still angry, and Chuck goes, "Hi, Risa!" And Risa ignores him and says, "Screw you." Dean's like, "Wow, I can't believe I'm getting blamed for shit I haven't even done!" But the idea is that Dean would do this, though, right? Like, that Dean is a cheater or something?

G: Is he? Again, this is what I'm saying. Like, I don't think this is a realistic fucking portrayal.

C: But I feel like if Dean was like, "This is something I wouldn't do," like, he'd be a little more like, "Man, future me is an asshole, isn't he?" You know what I mean?

G: Like, we've seen Dean cheat in "After School Special."

C: Oh, yeah, we have. [laughs] He is a cheater. [G: But we also will see Dean-] Didn't he also try to get with Sam's prom date in- Oh, no, that was in "What Is and What Should Never Be," so we don't have that happen in real life.

G: Yeah, yeah. No, like, we have seen Dean in older, and like, with Cassie, he seems decent. With Lisa, later, he will be decent. So I don't know.

C: Yeah. And I guess this isn't necessarily cheating [G laughing] because it seems like they didn't settle on like, being exclusive, but he did sort of imply things.

G: [laughing] Yeah. I think if I told the audience of this podcast my views and opinions on cheating, I will be persecuted. [C laughing] Because every single person I have talked to, other than you, I think, has been like, "Grey, you're absolutely fucking insane about it."

C: [laughing] Well, we'll present a united front. [G laughing]

G: Of what? That cheating is fine sometimes? Yeah. [C laughing]

C: [laughing] I mean, it's not, but there are worst things to do.

G: There are worst things than cheating, and I think cheating is attributed to so much bullshit that's not even cheating.

C: Yeah, I think that the "cheating" doesn't mean anything anymore because like, if someone's like, "Someone cheated on me," it's like-

G: People are using it so all-encompassingly.

C: - sometimes, they- Yeah, sometimes they just mean, like, someone is watching porn or like, has a friend. [both laugh]

G: Yeah. There's stuff that are definitely cheating and are definitely wrong, [C: Yeah.] but I think there are layers to it, and the way it is talked about is so mind-bogglingly uncomplex. And it's like, this is experienced by so many people. So many people have done it. And so like, I think it warrants some kind of complexity. I don't know! [C: Yeah.] Maybe I'm completely in the wrong, but I've not yet been convinced by any single person who has made the argument that I'm wrong, [C laughing] so I don't know. [laughs] [C: Real. I don't know. I'd say-] [laughing] It's because every single time somebody is like, "Grey, that's so odd that you think that," I go to you and I'm like, "Crystal! They said blah blah blah!" [C laughs] And you're like, "Blah blah blah," and I go back to them, and I say, "Well, my friend Crystal [C laughing] thinks I'm right, so I'm right!" [both laughing]

C: Yeah, I don't- I just think that people- There's like, not really one idea of what a relationship is meant to mean and like, [G: Yeah.] what is allowed and not allowed inside of it unless you have, like, a pretty explicit conversation about it, [G: Yeah.] just because a lot of people are in open relationships or, like, a lot of dating is casual. So it's like, yeah.

G: I think our conceived notions of what cheating is is so highly based on a very whatever kind of normative mindset that we have about relationships. And I think a lot of people don't fall into those, and even people who fall into those categories shouldn't have to exist in a world where that is the only- those are the only definitions, you know? [C: Yeah.] Wow. [laughs] [C: Wow.] And nobody's arguing with me because you and I agree!

C: Anyway, I think Dean is still an asshole because [G, laughing: And Dean is terrible.] I think the implication- [laughs] Yeah, the implication is that he lied about them being- He tried to intimate towards her that he was thinking about becoming exclusive in a way that she clearly believed, and I think that he wanted her to believe. [G: Yeah.] So that's still bad.

G: Yeah. Oh my god, I mean, this is tangential, but like, the other day, I was talking to a friend about this, and he was like, "[scandalized] What are you talking about?!" And I was, like, laughing the entire time, so he was like, "Are you being, like, serious right now? Or is this, like, a joking thing [C laughs] that you're like, making fun of me, 'cause you're laughing also?" And I was like, "I truly have no idea how to answer that question. I'm being for- I'm saying all of this recreationally, but I'm also being so serious right now, [both laughing] so I don't know." [C: Well.] Well.

C: Dean asks after Cas, and Chuck says, "I don't think Cas is going anywhere," and directs him towards the cabin, where the world's most annoying man lives. [laughs]

G: What a crazy line! Well, first, let's focus on the "I don't think Cas is going anywhere." Like, people think that.

C: I think the point is he doesn't have any powers.

G: Yeah, he doesn't have any powers, he doesn't have anywhere to go.

C: He's got nothing going on for him. He's got no friends.

G: But it is, again, like, there is the perspective of what is happening in the camp, like, what Chuck, as Zachariah intended for him to mean here, means it here, but also how Zachariah formulated all this for Dean to react to. And it's like, well, this is a crazy line to say to Dean, who is looking at this from the outside, I believe. And I mean, at that moment, he does not know yet that Cas is what he is now. So, I mean, that could have struck a nerve.

C: Yeah, so he's just like, "Me and Cas are really good friends in the future!" [laughs]

G: Yeah, I think that struck some kind of nerve.

G: So yeah, as Crystal said, we enter the cabin of an annoying-ass guy. And it's Cas. And he is in a-

C: Can we come up with a new name for him, like Bob, [G: Endverse Cas.] [laughs] just to distinguish him from the real Cas?

G: We forgot the word "Endverse" for future Dean! [C: Oh, yeah, that's what people call that guy.] Endverse!Dean. So yeah, this is Endverse!Cas. 'Cause "future" has a different connotation, dunnit? [C: Yeah, that implies this is the actual-] "Future Cas." And also, there is an episode called "The Future," and for me, that's future Cas! [laughs]

C: True. And he was meant to be shirtless in it.

G: He was meant to be shirtless, and [laughs] Dean's supposed to kneel in front of him.

C: [laughing] While Sam runs through a field. [G laughing] Well. [G, laughing: Supernatural is-] What was that? Okay, I mean, they didn't film it because they also read it and went, "What was that?" The questions have been asked.

G: [laughing] Who wrote that episode? Let's look up who wrote "The Future"! [laughing]

C: Who wrote it? Was it a Bo- Who was it? [typing]

G: Who the fuck- It's Meredith Glynn! [C: Nice.] And Robert Berens. [laughing] Yeah, they fully intended that shit. [both laughing]

C: I wonder who stepped in and said, "Stop this."

G: "Stop this at once!" It was Kim Manners's spirit. [C, laughing: Noo!] Endverse!Cas is sitting on the floor of this cabin, and he's surrounded by, what, four women? And-

C: Is it only four? [G: I think so.] Okay, it seemed like more, but four makes sense to me.

G: Yeah. So he's sitting there and he's talking about-

C: Oh, and also, we see around his place, and, like, there's a bead curtain, there's like, a Buddha statue.

G: Oh, and the music!

C: And yeah, there's the #Eastern music going on.

G: [laughs] Yeah, #Eastern music.

C: Yeah. So, you know, it's very, like, drawing on, I guess, New Age mysticism, which is a bastardization of just Buddhism and also, like, Hinduism and various other religions.

G: Endverse Cas is talking about stuff. [C laughs] [C: Yeah. Sure is.] Like, perception and compartments and fragmental blah blah blah. And then he looks up and sees Dean.

C: Well, before he sees Dean, like, he said, he's saying that like, they're trying to achieve some kind of spiritual group mind, and you have to do that through a physical- like, "The way to that is surprisingly physical." [G: Yeah.] So he is using like, fake religious shit that he made up [G: Yeah.] in order to get these women to fuck him. And-

G: And I suppose there's the aspect of people know he used to be an angel, probably. [C: Right.] And so they're like, "Well, he's probably right about that."

C: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess there is a way to read it as, like, "It's just roleplay, and they know that it's not- like, they don't genuinely believe in it." But like, we don't know that that is the case, and I don't think that that is the case. Like, we're not supposed to read this as like, evil

G: Yeah, we're not supposed to. But we're not supposed to view much of anything from Supernatural that we read it.

C: Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that it's treated so casually, it's like, am I meant to take this as like, everyone here is just being silly and, like, they don't actually believe it. Or, more likely, [laughs] this is an episode written by Ben Edlund.

G: I think there is the aspect of, like, it could be that, you know, it's post-apocalyptic or whatever. And these are people trying to make do.

C: Yeah, find a larger purpose. [G: Yeah.] And this is a former angel claiming to know shit about religion. [G: Yeah.] I feel like if you said Ben Edlund down and was like, "What is going on here?" and, like, got specific with it, I think he eventually would be like, "Yeah, like, they're being deceived and manipulated into it, but I just didn't think it was that big of a deal 'cause I don't see women as people." [laughs] I feel like that is what is happening. I don't think it's like, "This is a fun roleplay." God. I love when they decide that when Cas becomes human, he also becomes racist immediately. Like, [laughs] remember when he called burritos "ethnic food" [G laughing, Yeah.] in 9.03 or some shit?

G: Like, you're a fucking angel!

C: [laughing] Like, as soon as he loses his angel superiority, like, feelings, he's like, "I gotta find another way to have a leg up in this world. Thank god, I possessed a white guy!"

G: He swats Dean, and then he tells these ladies, "Excuse me, ladies. [laughs] [C: God.] I think I need to confer with our fearless leader for a minute," which is what he calls Dean pretty much this entire episode. And then he goes, "Why not go get washed up for the orgy?" which makes- [C: It's so sleazy! It's so gross!] which makes Dean turn his head. And as they walk away, he's like, "You're all so beautiful." [C: What is this? It's horrible.] I don't like it. I don't like it! I don't like it. Who likes it? Absolutely no one.

C: No one! Absolutely no one. We could have gotten the cockroach thing. [G: Yeah.] Do you ever think about how we could have just gotten the fucking cockroach thing? [G: Yeah.] And I think the point is that like, for here, it's like, "What would make Dean feel the worst?" And it's like, Dean is currently- like, we already know that he has, like, intense, strange thoughts about addiction, and that he recently introduced Cas to sex, so, like, these are two things that Dean could blame himself for, so like, it's helpful for Dean's journey if this is what's happening. But like- And the cockroach thing is more about- like, I think that is a lot truer to Cas as a character. But since it's not a Cas episode, they just went with this route instead.

C: After the women leave, Dean goes, "What are you, a hippie?" Not my main concern here, Dean Winchester. Cas just makes some joke about "I thought you'd gotten over trying to label me," which- I can't tell if it's a sexuality joke. Because, like, that is what the word "label" means to me pretty quickly, but I don't know.

G: I think this is this is of that caliber, eah. [C: Yeah.] Also, I mean, in the moment he is, like, standing up and stretching and moaning [laughs] and grunting and whining. [C laughs] So like.

C: Sure, yeah, all those things. And Dean says that they have to talk. Cas goes, "Whoa! Strange." because he's realized that this is Dean from the past, 2009. Cas doesn't seem particularly concerned.

G: He goes, "Interesting."

C: Yeah. He calls it "interesting." And also, the whole time, he seems kind of spaced out. Dean goes like, "Whatever whatever, can you just use your angel powers and send me back to 2009?" Cas goes, "I wish I could." He, like, laughs himself a bit, and then he goes, "I wish I could, uh, just strap on my wings, but I'm sorry. No dice." And I'm not sure if Dean can tell at this point that Cas is fully human yet, because he asks follow-up questions later. So I don't know exactly what Dean thinks the situation is now. 'Cause [laughs] the main concern that Dean has right now is, "Are you stoned?" [laughs] And Cas says that he generally is. Dean asks, "What happened to you?" and Cas says, "Life." Meanwhile, outside, Endverse Dean returns from his mission.

G: He pops up a beer can, just like in the clicky AMV. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] [laughs] And then he shoots a guy!

C: Yeah, and then he points a gun at one of the guys that he threw a beer to, so, fucking wasted beer. He shoots that guy. [G: Shoots him.] And Dean this whole time is, like, "Hey, what the fuck?" He yells, "Watch out!" to the guy that Endverse Dean is shooting at. And then everyone's like, "What the hell? There's two Deans." And Endverse Dean goes like, "Damn it!" And then he tells the soldiers, who, I believe, are all men still-

G: Yeah. The only women here are Risa and then [C: The orgy ones.] the people in orgy. [C: So.] I can't believe I was like, defending- Like, "Well, at least she was a leader!" And it's like, well, it's horrible. I was defending it in a prior conversation with Crystal.

C: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's like- yeah, like, the implication- the vibe feels very much like, "There are men here who do the Apocalypse supplies war stuff, and there are women here to fuck."

G: Yeah. And even when she was, like, in that group, like, when they were making decisions, they still bring up the whole, like, "Oh, and she thought you guys have a connection."

C: Yeah, that Dean had a connection with her. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah, that's like, the entirety of her character, pretty much. But yeah. So Endverse Dean says, "I'm not gonna lie to you. Me and him, pretty messed up situation we got going. But when you need to know something, you'll know it. Until then, we all have work to do."

G: The way Cas is framed this episode, who- this is Steve Boyum, right? [C: The director? Yeah.] Do you think he just loves Cas or whatever? Because there are so many directorial choices of just putting Cas in the middle of the screen, [C: Huh.] panning to Cas when you don't need to. Like, the zooming on the picture, zooming into Cas first before going into the Camp Chitaqua. Here, when Endverse Dean points, he points to Dean, and then Dean turns around to look at Cas, and the camera lingers on Cas. Later on, when they're walking, Cas is in the middle of the screen. It's just fascinating to me. Like, why is Cas so centric to this like, Endverse stuff, specifically? Like, I mean, the modern day stuff, I get. But the Cas stuff specifically, it's like, it's fascinating to me. And it's extra fascinating- I bring it up in this scene because, in this one, Dean turns and then sees Cas, which is the same shot later of Dean turning and Cas is behind him in the "don't ever change" scene.

C: Steve Boyum directed "In the Beginning," so [G: He just loves that?]- Yeah, he loves the turning around to see Cas sort of vibe. I guess- I don't know. Cas is the most visible [G: Changed.] quote-unquote "victim" of Dean's choice to say no to Michael in this-

G: Bobby died! [laughs] And Chuck is here also!

C: Yeah, but like, not visibly. He's not visible. [G: He's invisibly dead.] Chuck seems to be doing fine. [G laughs]

G: Honestly, I think Chuck found a purpose in life. Like, honestly. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, I agree. I think he's having a better time here than he was like- He's not in his bathrobe, he's not depressed on the couch. I think he seems more chipper here than he was in Season 4.

G: You're right. And also because what are the two lessons here? Like, "Life is bad for people," and Cas is the representation of that. [C: Mm-hm.] And also, "Sam said yes to Lucifer," and that's [C: Revealed later.]- Lucifer in Sam's body, that's for later. So yeah. Like, for now, the focus, you're right, does ought to be Cas here because he is the representation of what humanity quote-unquote "has lost." [C: And he's not even human.] In the form of an angel who became human. [C: Yeah.] Or became mortal, I suppose I should say. 'Cause he seems to still be an angel. Like, he still has the vision, blah blah blah. He can sense things. [C: He can? Oh, yeah. Well.] He doesn't have the powers of an angel, including mortality. Including immortality.

C: I mean, maybe just- you mean he can sense that it's previous Dean? [G: Not Dean, yeah.] Yeah. I mean, I don't- people look different after 5 years. You can see that.

G: No, but it's like, he was- "Whoa. You're not you. Not now you, anyway. What year are you from?" is like a- [C: That's true. That does seem more perceptive.] And, like, he did see Chuck, and Chuck, you know, Chuck DGAF. But if that was Sam, I feel like Chuck would have been like, "Whoa, Sam, you're different." [both laugh]

C: Yeah. And Sam would go, "Is it my new haircut?" like he did with Anna. [laughs]

C: Endverse Dean shoves Dean into his cabin and is all angry about him, like, revealing his presence to the other camp people. He explains that he killed that guy because he got infected by, like, some Croatoans, and he didn't want to tell him the bad news. He just killed him. And yeah, Dean asks like, "Hey, don't you think that like, murdering a guy in front of everyone like, freaked everyone out?" Endverse Dean is just like, "This is literally normal. Like, whatever." [G: It's normal!] It's normal! "Whereas you probably freaked them out." He says that like, he's in charge, and Dean apologizes. Only person he'll apologize to. [laughs] No, he's apologized to other people before. And he says that he's "not trying to mess us up here. It's just been a weird time." And he asks after the mission, and Endverse Dean pulls out the Colt. [G: Ooh.] Fascinating that Cas was not part of that mission. [G: Yeah, what is Cas's job here?] And that the Colt mission literally took, like, less than a day?

G: What is Cas's role? 'Cause Chuck's role is pretty visible. He is- [C: Yeah, he's supplies guy.] Yeah, he's supplies guy. I mean, Risa also doesn't have a visible job.

C: Well, yeah, I mean, I guess she and Cas are both-

G: She's the girl leader, yeah. [laughs]

C: Yeah, they were both consulted, so I guess they're like, lieutenants or something.

G: They were there for the final one.

C: Yeah. I guess, I don't know. Cas is probably just taking a vacation day or something.

G: Now that I think about it, it is probably true that this is a fringe group, because I don't think, like, the government would be like, "And it's God. [C laughs] And it's the Apocalypse and the angels and demons." So you're right. They are a fringe Christian group to those people, Camp Chitaqua, yeah. [C: Yeah.] 'Cause I was wondering about, like, well, why not just make- I don't know. [laughs] You have people with tanks who can get the Colt, maybe. [C: Mm, yeah.] And it's like, well, they don't want to. [laughs] They're living the American fantasy.

C: Yeah, so he has the Colt and it took Endverse Dean five years, but he finally got it. And tonight, he's gonna kill the devil.

G: You know in When Harry Met Sally when they go, "Oh, just 12 years and 3 months." That's this mission. Like, it took him 5 years and, like, 2 hours to get this Colt. [both laugh] [C: Yeah. For real.]

G: Yeah, we go to them. They're meeting. Oh, it's the Colt, blah blah blah. Risa is like, "Okay, so we found the Colt. But how are we gonna find Lucifer?" And Endverse Dean is like, "Um, are you okay?" But not like that. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, no, but he is saying it in a "Why are you being so angry right now?" [G: "Why are you being so maad?"] [laughs] And I think she has brought up a good question.

G: Dean goes like, "Oh, yeah, we were at Jane's cabin," and, you know, he explains the situation. And Endverse Dean just looks at him and goes, "You want to shut up?" I think Endverse Dean is fascinating because does Dean- I mean, you don't know, probably, or maybe you do. I don't think even our Dean, who we hate towards the end of Season- of the season, ever turned out to be like. I mean, I was thinking about that too because, like, Cas definitely does not end up like Endverse Cas. [C: Yes.] But you can make the argument that Dean ends up a little bit like Endverse Dean, but no, not really. I think I can make the argument that he doesn't. Yeah, like, this is just fake to me. [laughs] Like, this is not true.

C: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the main reason I think this isn't true is actually because of something that Endverse Dean says later. [G: Oh!] So yeah, I think that Endverse Dean does not feel correct to me.

G: Yeah. This is Zachariah putting on a puppet show, pretty much. This is not even a realistic portrayal of Dean in this situation. Or maybe it is. I don't know. But to me, it isn't. This is just puppet play.

C: Given that all the pussy on Supernatural leaves in later seasons, we just don't really see Dean being an asshole later coming out in any form of being shitty to women, at least, so, that part we don't see. In terms of like the practicality, killing people without telling them or feeling bad about it, like-

G: You can see aspects of that in Season 14, [C: You can see aspects of that, but he doesn't follow through with it either.] but towards himself. Yeah, and towards himself. There's a difference between leading people into a suicide mission and putting himself in a box and tossing himself in the ocean. Like, those are different things.

C: Yeah, no, I don't think Dean's really willing to sacrifice other people. [G: In this way ever, yeah.] Like, I don't think that ever becomes a trait for him, yeah.

G: Yeah, it never does. The game plan is to go to Lucifer, who they found out the location via another demon. He says that "I know for a fact that he's telling the truth." And it's like, "Why?" And Endverse Cas says, "Our fearless leader, I'm afraid-" Why are you afraid? [C laughs] "- is all too well-schooled in the art of getting to the truth."

C: I love, again, when Supernatural says that things that are extracted under torture are, in fact, more correct than things not extracted under torture. I'm sure that this is backed up by every single paper in the world [G laughs] and not the opposite.

G: Yeah. And Dean reacts to this as, like, "Oh, we're torturing again. That's good. Very classy." And we have this shot of Endverse Cas looking up at Dean and giggling a little bit. And-

C: I am surprised that Dean is surprised about this. Like, he's seen this guy. He's kind of a dick. [G: Yeah.] Is doing torture really so far from his mind that, like, this is a surprise?

G: Perhaps. I mean, the last time we saw Dean, quote, "torture"- I don't know why I said "quote." [C laughs] He did torture. [C, laughing: He did.] No, but like, I was thinking, like, are there other instances where they hurt someone? Like, a demon, but it's that they don't consider torture? Which they do do in Supernatural. But the last time he did torture was, he was very, very distraught by it.

C: He was distraught before it. But I think once he got into the groove, he got into the groove.

G: Yeah, but he was distraught by the torturing, I believe. [C: Maybe.] I think perhaps it's a leap too far for him at this point to think "And we're gonna go back to torturing." [C: Perhaps.] As I said, Cas is, like, giggling a little bit. And the camera is focused on him, and then it unfocuses on him and focuses on Endverse Dean's face, who is frowning. And Endverse Cas looks over and goes, "What? I like past you!" Is this the one they ADR-ed in? Am I misremembering? [C: Did they?] Yeah, it's supposed to be "I love past you," and then it was too gay.

C: Wait. Oh. Really? [G: I'm gonna look. I'm gonna look.] That sounds maybe fake, but also, I believe it.

G: No no no. You have to believe me. [laughs]

C: [laughs] I have to. Okay. Well, if I have to. [G: Wait, let's- look at this-] How are you gonna find this? They don't do image descriptions on Supernatural Tumblr enough.

G: No no no. Look at the fucking- [C: The script Google Drive?] mouth. Like- No no, not the script Google Drive. [C: The mouth?] Look at his mouth during the video. Do you have the episode pulled up?

C: I do not have the episode pulled up.

G: I'm gonna share screen. [C: Oh, okay.] [beep] See? See? Look at the way his tongue, like, flips. You don't do that for "like." 'Cause when "like," your tongue is at the back of your mouth. "Love," the tongue is more in front. [laughs]

C: Huh, okay. Well, are any of the, like, scripts- Is there a script?

G: No. I'm sure we can find evidence for this.

C: Okay. I mean, I believe it.

G: I think I'm right. Or maybe I'm not. Who knows? [C laughs] So yeah. He likes past Dean. Endverse Dean just goes back to the whole thing, and he relays his plans, which Endverse Cas says is so fucking stupid it's unreal. And he goes, "If you do not like 'reckless,' I could use 'insouciant,' maybe." [C laughs] And Endverse Dean asks, "Well, are you coming?" And he goes, "Of course. But why is Dean?" which is, you know, the question in everyone's mind. Or maybe not. [laughs] I didn't really think it. [C laughs] And the argument Cas is making is that if someone from five years ago- if you from five years ago died, maybe you're going to die too. So that's not a good idea. But Endverse Dean is just like, "Whatever. Just go get moving." And they do. And Dean asks, finally, when there's just the two of them again, like, "Why are you taking me?" And this is when the reveal happens that Sam said yes to Lucifer, and Endverse Dean is taking Dean into this trip because he wants them both to see Sam be a vessel for Lucifer. And, like, the whole thing here is that, like, you have to say yes to Michael because this is what happens when you don't. And Dean is like, "No, but, like, it's going to torch the half of the planet." And Endverse Dean is like, "Well, it doesn't matter. Look at everything! And if I could do it again, I'd say yes in a heartbeat." And apparently, he's tried, and he's tried saying yes, but the angels just left, and it's too late for him, but for Dean... And Dean is like, "There's gotta be another way!" But Endverse Dean insists that-

C: And this is the line where I was like, "Zachariah is puppeting this guy."

G: - "That's what I thought. But I was cocky. But I was wrong." [laughs]

C: Yeah, he goes, "I was cocky. Never actually thought I'd lose. But I was wrong," and that's not true. [G: That's not true.] Dean currently is not cocky. He doesn't think that he'll win. He thinks that just like, he'll go down fighting, and he doesn't want to say yes to Michael, so he'll just do whatever. [G: Yeah.] Like, there is no cockiness or thinking that he'll win in present day Dean, but that is what Zachariah [G: Thinks Dean is doing.] thinks that is why Dean is saying no to Michael. So that was the moment where I was like, "This is not real."

G: It is fascinating that Zachariah doesn't have that kind of insight on Dean's character. Like, he thinks Dean is being stubborn because` Dean thinks he's gonna win instead of "Even if I lose, I don't want to lose like this."

C: Yeah, I mean, we kind of see that in "It's a Terrible Life," too, right? Because Zachariah's argument there, part of it is like, "Well, you could either have a boring office job, or you could, [G: Yeah.] like, have a lot of sex and, like, look cool. So what do you want to do, Dean?" Like, I think he does overvalue- like, he does think that Dean cares more about, like, the image [G: Those kind of things, yeah.] and like, cockiness and things like that than Dean actually does.

G: Yeah, instead of that- He thinks that's the core thing instead of being a front to the cores. [C: Yeah.] Endverse Dean is saying, like, "I'm begging you, say yes! But you won't. 'Cause I didn't. Because that's not just us, is it?" Well, he doesn't say "Is it?" in [laughs] a British cadence, but yeah, he does say that.

C: They're heading out for the mission. They have a quick conversation with Chuck where he tells Dean to hoard toilet paper. Dean says "Thanks," and "I'll see you around." And they go. And so Cas is driving. Dean is in Cas's car. Like, what car is Endverse Dean in? Is he driving with Risa? [G: I mean, probably. Why did he put-] It seems kinda weird to split off from Dean.

G: I mean here, the intentionality is to talk to Cas. Like, he ought to talk to Cas because it's part of the convincing him.

C: Endverse Dean was like, ""Well, my Michael appeal didn't work, but if we put him in a car with Cas, [G laughs] he'll be like, 'This guy sucks so much that [both] I must say yes.'" [G laughs] But Cas isn't sucking so much in this scene. [G: Yeah.] He's just having a bad time. So in the car, Cas takes some pills,and Dean checks them over, and they're amphetamines. And he tells him, "Don't get me wrong, Cas. I'm happy that the stick is out of your ass." [laughs] Crazy thing to say!

G: And Cas just nods like, "Yes, yeah."

C: And then he asks, "What's going on with the drugs and orgies and love guru crap?" And Cas starts laughing, and he goes, "Dean, I'm not an angel anymore." And Dean is, like, surprised by this. He's like, "What?" even though that was pretty strongly hinted at earlier, and your present day Cas has already lost some of his powers. But yeah. Cas says that when all the other angels left, like, the rest of his powers just sort of went away, and now he's basically human, and he's definitely mortal. And Dean says, "Fuck this stupid baka life." [both laugh] [G: Literally.] Dean says, "So you're human. Well, welcome to the club." And Cas goes, "Thanks. Except I used to belong to a much better club." [both laugh] Real! Incredibly funny. [G: So true.] So true. Okay, I think currently, like, Season 5 Cas would consider angels to be a much better club. Do you think there's a point in later seasons where he doesn't think that?

G: I think an important part here is what he says the most is "useless." He thinks he's useless, and that's not an angel or human thing. That's a power thing. [C: Yeah.] And because- I mean, that's not a community thing, I'm saying. Like, that's not a club thing. That's a power, personal power thing. [C: And I think he'll always prefer having powers.] I don't think there's ever a universe where Cas would prefer to be human than be an angel because of the power. [C: Yes.] But I think there is a time at some point where he prefers to be with humans than with angels, which are completely different things.

C: Yeah. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, I was just trying to figure out how much of this is Zachariah being like, "We're really cool, and you guys suck!" [laughs] Like you said, he calls himself "powerless, hapless, and hopeless. Why the hell not bury myself in women and decadence, right?" I think we just need to take the word "woman" away from Super- I think we just need to take everything away from Supernatural until it becomes better. [both laugh]

G: I mean, this is, you know, "Booze, women," just like last episode.

C: Yeah, that is what Dean says last episode. And he says, "Why not bang a few gongs before the lights go out? But then, that's just how I roll!" None of these sentences- "But then that's just how I roll," [G: It doesn't make any sense.] how is that connected to any of the previous sentence? [laughs] Why is it a "But then, that's just how I roll." Like, that's not a but. That's a "and" situation. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] Bedlund, go study your grammar books again.

G: No! [C: No?] I mean, it's so odd 'cause like, what it is is like, if they end it like "Just bang a few gongs before the lights go out," it feels like there's something missing, you know? You can't just end the scene there. [C: Does it?] And what I expect was- and I knew that "But then, that's just how I roll" was gonna happen. But what I was expecting was for that was, like, that line happens, and then there's like, a few seconds pause where, I don't know, there's some acting happening. [C: They look sad, yeah.] Yeah, or some self-reflection, whatever. But no, it's just an immediate cut. And the thing is, if there was that time to breathe, this breathing room after this line, I would be less, like, "Ugh, what a fucking terrible-ass way to end this scene!" But because there's no breathing room, and it's just the end of the scene, it's so bad!

G: We go to like, in front of this building, I suppose, and they're all, like, looking into with binoculars, and Cas is there and Risa's there. I mean, Dean leads- are sliding them into a suicide mission. Like, he knows they're all going to die or whatever. Horrible. And Dean notices this and asks future Dean for a conversation, where he asks, "What's going on?" and like, "Why are you lying? Why are you lying? You're lying to all of us." And yeah. They cleared an- Future Dean says, like, "There's a reason why there's no Croatoans here, and it's because they cleared a path for us. And this is all a trap." And, like, he's going to be using these people as decoys, and the Dean and him are going to go through the back of this building, which is, you know, horrible. [C: Yeah.] Dean asks, "You're gonna feed your friends into the meat grinder? Cas, too?" [C: "Cas, too?"] Which is, I think the thing here is that "Cas already sacrificed so much for you." [C: Yeah.] And this is the guilt thing. Like, "Cas sacrificed so much for you. Cas became human because of you. And now you're just going to send him to die?" And I do understand why Cas is distinctified here. I mean, other people are also going to die, but like, Cas was immortal. Cas was never going to die. And now he's miserable, and he's going to die! Like, what a bad combination! [laughs]

C: Yeah, yeah. And Cas is the only one here- 'Cause Chuck didn't come on this mission, so Cas is the only one here that Dean like, knows, so I also understand.

G: I love that no matter what, there's the like, Chuck is not gonna be a gun-bearing warrior. [C laughs] Like, let's just leave it be. Let's just give him the fucking supplies.

C: Yeah, he's in charge of counting the toilet paper rolls. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] Good for him.

G: Good for him, honestly. Future Dean basically admits to it. And Dean says, "Something is broken in you. You're making decisions that I would never make. I wouldn't sacrifice my friends." And he's right. As he said, like, this is the thing that is different.

C: Yeah. I mean he is willing to sacrifice Jack at points, like in Season 15. But I think his way of doing it is going, "Jack isn't family, though!"

G: Eventually, Dean protests just a little bit too much, and [laughs] future Dean knocks him out because of it. [C: Yep. Slaycaysh.] When he wakes up, there's, you know, gunfire and everything. There's thunder, there's lightning, and he goes into, like, the garden, and Dean- future Dean is dead. He's on the ground, and his neck is being stepped on by a white shoe-wearer. And this white shoe wearer is... Lucifah! [laughs] [C: Hell yeah.] in Sam's body.

C: And he says "Hello" to Dean. He looks great. It is a good outfit.

G: It is a good outfit, and do you think Jared Padalecki does a good job of differentiating Sam and Lucifer?

C: Yeah, I think that the eyes are different. The way that they move and the expression in them.

G: As someone who has seen future Supernatural, I would have thought that this was bad. [C: Mm-hm.] But I now realize that a lot of that is because I was looking at it from, like, what future Lucifer is going to be like. But from what we see of Lucifer right now, this is actually very, very good. Like, this is accurate.

C: Future Lucifer is so unserious, [laughs] [G: Yeah.] but current Lucifer is serious. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, Lucifer is facing down Dean, and they're in this garden, and there's like, lightning, and there's thunder and shit. And Lucifer is just being very menacing, and like, holding his body very deliberately. And there's this this someone who said once, I forgot, I mean, people would talk quite a lot about, like, Sam's posture here versus when he is possessed or not himself, he changes his posture, and how as Lucifer and as Gadreel. [C: Gadreel? I don't know how to pronounce it.] His posture, his shoulders are straight up, which I do find fun.

C: Lucifer goes, "Aren't you a surprise? You've come a long way to see this, haven't you?" And Dean tells him to "Just kill me." And Lucifer's like, "Don't you think that would be a little redundant?" And then, like, he puts on this sort of, like, look of, like, sympathy and kindness, except it doesn't really work due to how he's evil and shit. [G: Yeah.] And he goes, "I'm sorry. It must be painful speaking to me in this shape," and he sort of, like, gestures at himself, and he goes, "But it had to be your brother. It had to be." [G: Yeah.] which, echoing what he said last episode, [G: To Sam.] and what Ruby said. Yeah, to Sam.

G: He tries to reach for these shoulder, and Dean, like, moves away from it. So, that's fun!

C: That is fun. And he says, "You don't have to be afraid of me, Dean. What do you think I'm going to do?" And Dean says, like, "Well, you're gonna destroy the planet." And this point, Lucifer's sort of turned away, looking at a rose, and he goes, "Why? Why would I want to destroy this stunning thing? Beautiful in a trillion different ways. The last perfect handiwork of God." And then [laughing] he pulls out the fucking. "Did you hear about how I fell from grace?" story again.

G: It's so annoying, because I was like- actually, throughout the scene, I was like, "Is this the first time this is being told? Did I just completely imagine that this has been told before?" But no, it has been told before.

C: [laughs] Yeah, he tells it to Nick in 5.01, and we don't get any new information about it. Like, we got, like, half of it, ish, from Uriel in "On the Head of a Pin," and then we get the rest of the phrasing from him talking to Nick at 5.01. Like, this is not new. [laughs] But whateber. So he says that God cast him down because he "loved him more than anything." And God created humans, and he told all the angels to love the humans more than him, and Lucifer, who thinks that he is Cordelia in King Lear, [laughs] he says, like that he told God, "Father, I can't! These human beings are flawed and murderous!" [laughs] And then Michael cast him into Hell or whatever. Is this all we get of this? Like, do we get more information? Is this, like, truly what happened? That's hilarious.

G: I mean, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it ever gets disproven. But like, you know, Lucifer's attitude does change, so it becomes less believable, let's say [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] that it's from this kind of benevolence that it comes from.

C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess being in Hell for, like, millennia can make you a really shitty person eventually. [G: Yeah.] Like, it's possible. But if that is what happened, like, they don't really engage with it in the show, I think, in a particularly interesting way. So I think believing it or not believing it doesn't actually add much my watching experience. Yes. "Now, tell me, does the punishment fit the crime? Especially when I was right. [laughs] Look what 6 billion of you have done to this thing, and how many of you blame me for it!" Hilarious.

G: 'Cause you literally caused it! Like, he literally caused it, though.

C: He did do it though. Like, it was not a coincidence that, I don't know, what is Supernatural saying? That swine flu- It is a coincidence that swine flu was in 2009. [both laugh] But in the text of Supernatural, it isn't a coincidence. Dean says, "You're not fooling me with that sympathy for the devil crap. I know what-"

G: Dean is crying here. [C: Is he?] Like, he's tearing up. And it was confusing to me why. 'Cause he specifically starts tearing up in the story. [C: Huh.] And it's like, I get- the reasons why I think Dean would tear up here is, like, Sam. [C: Seeing Lucifer talk with Sam's body, yeah.] How I can justify him crying in that moment is perhaps here, he is now starting to see the reasons why Sam would have said yes. [C: Okay, yeah.] Like, how Lucifer could have possibly-

C: Yeah, he has some forms of rhetoric that would work on Sam, etc.

G: Yeah. But it was still kind of mind-boggling to me, honestly, that he was crying here. Like, why are you crying? [laughs]

C: Yeah. Lucifer asks what he is, and Dean says, "You're the same thing, only bigger. The same brand of cockroach I've been squashing my whole life. An ugly, evil belly-to-the-ground, supernatural piece of crap. The only difference between them and you is the size of your ego." And I guess this is supposed to be a whole thing, but, I don't know. Yeah, whatever.

G: Because we a more- we have a complex idea of what hunting is and what monsters and Supernatural, this doesn't really fly the way the episode wants it to, yeah.

C: Yeah. So Lucifer smiles and says, "I like you, Dean. I get what the other angels see in you." What do- [laughs] Only one other angel likes Dean. Everyone else thinks he's dumb as fuck.

G: Well, yeah, but, like, he is, you know, the vessel, etc. and they are looking for him.

C: Yeah, but like, it's not 'cause they- Like, how much is of a vessel's personal strength, or whatever is involved? What is it about- "I get what the other angels see in you" are like, "There are Dean-specific qualities related to his personality that other angels like." And it's like, I think that the people who want him for Michael's vessel don't like [G: - don't like this aspect of this personality.] his personality, yeah. Is the will of the vessel, like, part of how well the possessing them and using them to fight people- like, is that part of it?

G: I think a part of it is you know how Uriel was like, not fond of Dean.

C: Yeah, he had the "I'm starting to like you, boy," or whatever, yeah.

G: Yeah. That kind of amusement of "Yeah, your spunky attitude is not helping the case, but it is entertaining." [C: Yeah.] And I did just use the word "spunky," which is pretty funny.

C: It is. He turns away to say, "Goodbye. We'll meet again soon," but Dean yells at him to kill him now or he'll find a way to kill Lucifer, and he won't stop. And Lucifer says, "Well, no. 'Cause you won't find a way, and you won't say yes to Michael, and you won't kill Sam, so you'll always end up here. No matter what, I will win." And Dean says that he's wrong. Lucifer says, "See you in five years, Dean!" He leaves, and then Zachariah zaps Dean back to 2009.

G: Zachariah is in the motel room with Dean now. Dean is still trying to be snarky, but he's obviously very moved or very affected, at least by what happened. So his voice is a little bit shaky, and it's not working, really. Zachariah is saying that "You see what happens? You're the only one who can prove the devil wrong. Just say yes." And this is what I'm saying, that Dean asked, like, "Is this a trick?" And Zachariah says, "The time for tricks is over. Say yes, and we can strike before Lucifer gets to Sam. Before billions die." And Dean walks away, and then he just goes, "Nah. I've learned my lesson, but not the one you wanted to teach." And Zachariah gets really mad, and he's like, "Well, I'll just have to teach it again! Because I got you now, boy, [C laughs] and I'm never letting you go!" He sounds like the PS5 song. You know the one? [C, laughing: Yeah, yeah, he does.] "It's me, boy, I'm the PS5." He sounds like the PS5. [C: He is the PS5.] Dean, before Zachariah can't can get to him, is gone! And Zachariah looks around and is like, "Son of a-" and then we go to [C exclaims] Dean at the side of the road, and he's standing there. And he turns around- [C: Who else happens to be standing there?] and Cas is there! [C: Is it our favorite character?] He's there! And it's this very quiet scene where, like, there's no background music or anything. And Cas is just standing there, and I'm not sure he even knows what happened, but he's pleased. He looks pleased. He knows Zachariah was in the room. [C: Yeah.] But I don't think know he got transported to blah blah blah.

C: I don't think he knows about the Endverse, but I think that he rescued Dean from something.

G: He's smiling a little bit! [C: Aw, yeah.] Which is so- It gets to me. It gets to me. Like, remember when Destiel was nice? Do you? It's crazy! But yeah, Dean goes, "Pretty nice timing, Cas." And Cas goes, "We had an appointment." [C: Agh.] Ah! [laughs] Ahh. Ahh. But yeah, Dean puts his hand on Cas's shoulder, and he goes, "Don't ever change." And Cas just smiles at him. And Dean, like, takes off his phone and starts contacting Sam. And Cas asks, like, "How did they find you?" And Dean goes, "Let's just stay away from Jehovah's witnesses from now on, okay?" as you said. And yeah, Dean calls Sam. And before this, Cas asks, like, "What are you doing?" And he says, "Something I should have done in the first place." We go to a bridge, which is, Supernatural loves to do [C: Loves a bridge.] these fucking scenes in a bridge. I've never noticed it before, but it is true that they do love a bridge.

C: There's like, a big bridge scene with, like, them and John, too?

G: Them and John. There's a big one- not a big one, but there's a scene with the siren that's under a bridge, like, the siren episode that's under a bridge. Bunch of episodes where they're just talking under a bridge. It is a fun visual, I suppose. [C: Yeah.] Why is it a fun visual? What does it entail? It's just a bridge?

C: I don't know. It's just a bridge. [G: I think it's just on the side of the road.] I think it's connecting two sides or whatever the fuck is what they're going for with this one?

G: Yeah. But also it's the side of the road. Like, you can't do this in the middle of the road, obviously, but it'll be weird to do it in an establishment, also. Something that is like, very clearly not on the road but also not in an establishment is the way to do it, and a lot of that is on a bridge. On the, like, below a bridge. Dean is there. He's by the Impala. He's by Baby! Oh my god! They're reunited, [singing] and it feels so good! [both laugh] And yeah, Sam shows up in his own car. Wonderful. [C: Wonderful!] And as he approaches, Dean is holding Ruby's knife, and he gives it to Sam. He says, "If you're serious and you want back in, you should hang onto this. I'm sure you're rusty."

C: Right. And that's a gesture of trust specifically, 'cause it's like, "I'm okay with you killing demons now."

G: Yeah. And also, that's a sign of Ruby in some way, right? [C: Yeah.] Like, that's Ruby's knife. And, I mean, we have talked about this, but, like, eventually, Sam's main weapon is gonna be Ruby's knife, and Dean's is going to be an angel blade, which is fun. [C: Mm-hm.] No, no, Dean's weapon is always gonna be a fucking gun. [C: Right.] Like, that is gunboy. But when they're doing combat like that where it's blades, he is the angel blade guy.

C: Is the idea that because Sam resisted in the last episode, he now trusts himself more, like, around demons and demon blood? [G: What do you mean "resisted"? Ah, when he was made to drink-] Like, when he was force-fed demon blood by the other hunters and he spat it out.

G: I suppose so. I really wish they leaned into the thing I was talking about last episode with Lindsey and the working at the bar.

C: Yeah, working at a bar, but still- yeah. I agree. I wish they leaned into that more, too. Because I guess there's like, I don't know. Giving him Ruby's knife is like, a sign of trust. But it's also like, I'm still not sure why Dean trusts him with hunting demons specifically right now. I mean, I guess the decision is just "I'm just making a decision to trust. It's not that there are reasons for me to trust. [G: Reasons, yeah yeah yeah.] I've just decided that that's what I'm gonna do now," which I think is fine, yeah.

G: Yeah. "If we're gonna hunt together, I have to trust you anyway, so might as well."

C: "So I just will." And then I think, yeah, I think that Sam takes it partly because he's honored by this trust and partly because he feels like he's proven to himself something last episode. Yeah. It's a pretty fast turnaround for an addiction recovery arc, but I guess there's gonna be more of it in "My Bloody Valentine."

G: Yeah. And also, Sam really did get, like, magic- sobered by God, right? [C: That's true. That's true.] That does affect-

C: That helps, yeah. And soon he'll get magic all of his Hell trauma taken away by Cas. [laughs] [G: Hell yeah!] I love when Supernatural refuses to deal with recovery normally.

G: Sam asks, "What made you change your mind?" And Dean says, "Well, it's a long story. But the point is, maybe we are each others' Achilles's heel, but we're all we've got. And more than that, we keep each other human." And Sam says, "Thank you, really. I won't let you down." And Dean says, "Oh, I know it." And I was afraid, a little bit. I was like, a little bit afraid of what he's gonna say afterwards. But then he says, "You are the second-best hunter on the planet," which I was like, "Aww!" That's sweet.

C: Yeah. Yeah. It is a deliberate return to "here's our jokey brother dynamic again."

G: Yeah, Sam says, "What are we gonna do now?" Dean says, "Well, we make our own future." [both laugh] Sam says, "I guess we have no choice," which is so funny.

C: [laughing] A lot of nothing lines on the end, yeah. But yeah.

G: Okay, so, what did we think about this episode? I liked it.

C: Is Dean really not gonna tell Sam about Endverse? This is just like how they never talked about "It's a Terrible Life." Like, come on, guys!

G: Dean was like, "It's not real, because it's a fiction- it's a fragment of [overlapping] Zachariah's imagination."

C: Yeah, his headcanon is valid to him.

G: But yeah, okay, what do we think about this episode? I liked it more than I thought I would.

C: Yeah, yeah, I think that was also my impression. I was like, "This is pretty alright." I thought that it did a decent job saying what it wanted to say, and it landed in a place that I'm fairly happy with.

G: Okay. Best Line/Worst Line.

C: "We had an appointment" is the best line, yeah.

G: Agh! Well, the worst line is the Jane's cabin stuff. [C: Mm.] I think. I just think it's annoying.

C: That was irritating, yeah. I'm gonna go with Cas's line about the dragonfly consciousness and the way to connect to it is "surprisingly physical." Like, [laughs] you are a terrible person.

G: Oh, I have another honorary worst line. [C: Yeah.] "Little girl! Little girl!" [C laughs] [C: Real.] It's so ungodly funny. Oh, I wanted to point something- because I opened my notes to check if I wrote down a best line. But I wanted to point out that future Dean doesn't wear his ring anymore. [C: Oh.] And you see it very clearly when he handles the guns, and you see it very clearly, too, when- 'Cause when I noticed it was when, you know when they drink whisky, and they're facing each other, so the hand of our Dean that's facing us is the one with the ring, and the hand that's Dean future, that's facing us, is the one without the ring. So you know this immediately that like, one person's wearing, one person's not. But Dean is supposed to be wearing it on his other hand. [C: On the other hand, yeah.] So I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna wait until it shows us the other hand," and it's not there. So I do think [C: Fascinating.], like, as someone who has the same kind of attachment to a ring, you notice immediately when you're not wearing it. And so either Dean lost it accidentally in a way that he couldn't recover, or he purposefully removed it. And I do think about that. [C: Yeah, that's a fun concept.] I think about it in the context of does Dean Dean ever remove his ring, like at some point in the show? I wonder. I'm not sure. [C: We'll keep a look out.] I really am not sure. I mean, people always say constantly, "Oh, I miss the early season jewelry." But when when does that change is something I want to know. So I will keep a lookout for that. But I think my best line ought to go to "We had an appointment," too because that is a line that makes you go, "Aww!" But I suppose I shall give my line to "You're the second-best hunter in the world," [C: Yeah.] which is also pretty good. So yeah. Spreadsheets.

C: Yes. There is misogyny. [G: Of course there is.] What is the number of misogyny?

G: I would put it fundamental. I would put it 3.

C: Yeah, yeah, I think 3 makes since. We have had so many 3 misogynies. This is our third 3-misogyny of Season 5, and we are only on the fourth episode. Racism, I think there's the use of, like, Buddha imagery and the Eastern music, etc.

G: Can I put 2 here, or do you think it's more a 1? Because I also want to count [C: Risa?] Risa's characterization, although I would say it falls more into misogyny than anything. But as we previously discussed, I would want a 2 here.

C: I could do a 2.

G: Homophobia. [both laugh] [C: Huh!] Is this a-

C: The "labeling me" line? Is that what you're thinking about?

G: Yeah. But I don't think so. [C: I don't know. Yeah, I don't think so.] Okay, so it's a 0?

C: Yeah, I guess so. I think an argument could be made, I don't wish to make the argument 'cause I don't believe it that strongly. Oh, wait. Panties line homophobia?

G: Mm. I think we had a similar discussion in the past about transphobia specifically in the show and how- and we brought this up in that one.

C: 'Cause I think it was- Dean was saying "Sam wears women's underwear" as a thing to see that he was asleep or whatever. Or I think that might have been in "Mystery Spot" as one of the things they were saying really fast. I think given that it is a pattern, given that we've had this discussion before, I would give it a point.

G: Okay. I'm not opposed to such.

C: Okay. I think there was a time in television where, like, men wearing women's underwear was, like, a big joke. Like, they had one of those, in like, Elementary Season 1 too, where like, Sherlock comes in, and he's like, "Oh, you bankers have to do what I say, and if you don't, I'm gonna start listing off your secrets. For example, that man wears like, nail polish and women's underwear sometimes." And it's like, a big, like- So like, I feel like Supernatural is falling into that tradition. IMDb.

G: I would say this is a highly-rated episode. I would- You go first.

C: I was gonna put it at maybe 5.02's level. I don't think it's like, the highest one so far or anything. [G: Okay.] So I think I was gonna say 8.6.You are thinking higher.

G: I'm gonna go 9.1.

C: Alright. You're probably right. We'll see.

G: Let's see. This episode is a 9.1! Yes! [C: Oh my god, congrats.] Finally! And that's a big one for me, too, 'cause you're so wrong!

C: It's a big win? [G: Yeah.] Congratulations! I'm very happy for you.

G: This one is talking about the budgetary restrictions and how they were able to get over that.

C: Right, portray post-Apocalypse with- yeah, they did the set pretty well and all that.

G: Yeah. [laughing] This one says, "Post season 15"- This is from November 22, 2020, which is an iconic time in most people's lives, including me. By "most people," I mean most people on Tumblr. [C laughs] This says, "Only improved since we know Castiel loved Dean during this episode."

C: Oh my god. Boo. I don't think he loves Dean during this episode. [G: I don't think that is a conscious thought.] I feel like the way that their relationship has developed in the Endverse is like, different. And I don't think there is that much love there.

G: Wait, what do you mean? No, not Endverse. Like, Cas. Real Cas.

C: Okay. Well, but like- Okay, so are they just talking about the two scenes of real Cas being better?

G: Yes. Yes. I think the "We had an appointment," "Don't ever change." Which, I mean, to be fair, in the confession, Cas references the "don't ever change." [C: He does??] I mean, not referenced, but he says you changed me.

C: [laughing] I don't think [G laughs] that's a reference to "Don't ever change"! I think that the word "change" is a very common word.

G: [laughing] It's a reference to me when I make an AMV but not in the show.

C: People will connect those, but I don't think it was intentional. [G: On Cas's behalf, yeah.] I don't think Cas is in love with Dean yet. I think he has a little crush and he wants to fuck that guy. [G: Yeah.] I think that's the extent of it.

G: Yeah. And as we've said, Cas doesn't really do a good job of analyzing the situation.

C: Aw, someone has ended theirs with "Also, because I'm an Anna fan, I have to ask for the fourth time running this season: Where is Anna?!" [laughs] I hope they're doing okay after "Song Remains the Same."

G: This one says, "Sam is one of the main characters but yet 27 min without even seeing him once!! [C: Real.] Wtf wtf wtf? Jared was bloody brilliant as Lucifer and I give him a 10! But don't sideline him it's insulting!" And it's a 1 over 10. [C laughing]

C: So true, I suppose. Very fun of them.

G: Okay. Well, that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 5: "Fallen Idols." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: Wait, is that the Paris Hilton one? [G: I think so.] [laughs] We're gonna go from this to Paris Hilton? [G laughs] Okay, yeah, sure. Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

[beep]

G: Okay, are we doing the analysis- Ugh! The phone is fucking ringing. Like, the telephone. [C: Okay.] Unbless the telephone. [C laughs] Fuck that telephone.

[beep]

G: It's just- Is my voice really okay? I feel like it isn't. Sound-wise. I can speak.

C: I can't tell but I'm very good at telling. [G: Yeah, okay.] You're the audio engineer here.

G: This is true. By "audio engineer," I mean someone who has downloaded Audacity. [both laugh]

C: Yeah. Many people have not downloaded Audacity. [G: This is true.] You're probably in the top 0.1% of people in audio engineering.

G: Of Audacity users. Honestly, probably. [C: Yeah.] I spend so much time in that fucking app!

[beep]

G: Yeah, 11:11, Aziraphale and Crowley should fuck raw in Season 3! [laughs]

C: Oh, fuck yeah! It's passed for me, but-

G: That's so sad. I just made it.

C: [laughs] I have every other 11:11 in my life.

#transcript

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