#pine yaps

[soft-pine]

I got an ask about semantics, that Dean is often branded “toxic” and that it tends to be overused. Semantics isn’t my strong point, so i thought I’d come to a Dean historian. :)

Do you think this is overused for Dean?

I find it’s a much more interesting conversation when we describe his behavior for what it actually is—whether he’s being stubborn, dismissive, hostile, or even emotionally guarded. I think some of the specific ways he copes—through joking, deflection, self-sacrifice, breaking objects, or pushing people away—are very human.

I think it was @ilarual that pointed out that Supernatural isn’t a Saturday family drama… it can’t be divorced from its religious horror fantasy roots. The characters’ struggles—whether emotional breakdowns, crises of faith, or cycles of self-destruction—aren’t just personal; they’re heavy with cosmic forces, biblical themes, and the weight of fate itself.

Anyway, it’s hard for me not to see “toxic” as a copout word. (Forgive me for dumping on you.)

Hi Shal! I'm so honored to get two asks from you!! I was carrying them around in my head all week though I didn't have time to answer :(

I'm trying to gather my thoughts about this. Because, yes, I agree that calling Dean "toxic" is a) not accurate and b) a cop-out for analysis. And I certainly agree that that word is overused by deancrits particularly.

I think I'm probably not grasping the full weight and meaning of ilarual's point but from what I'm getting, I think that's a really important element to how dean (and sam and cas and jack etc) act and how we evaluate their actions. The stakes are always so damn high for all of them.

Stepping back for a moment, when reading fic I'm often a little frustrated if Dean is characterized the way he is in canon but most of the contexts that have made him behave, react, be that way are removed. Because in some of those instances, I think some of his behavior reads as pretty ungrounded from reality and maybe more into the kinds of patterns which coalesce into toxicity. (I mean I also think fanon makes people lean into these kinds of characterizations of dean - disaster bisexual, repressed and biphobic, and various other things which are incomprehensible to me)

But in canon, I tend to personally struggle to define any of TFW et al as "toxic." I recall a conversation I had with a friend after watching Lucifer Rising where she was critical of Dean for yelling at Cas when he was trying to break Cas free of Heaven's plans to bring on the Apocalypse. She said he was being mean. I remember feeling so confused - surely if the stakes are the whole entire world, you are well within your rights to raise your voice?

I think all of TFW has moments of being not particularly kind or good communicators or steamrolling each other's emotions or various other things which are kinda yucky interpersonally. But it's pretty much always because the stakes are so fucking high; the world is in peril; there isn't time to have a conversation; they are dealing with catastrophic grief while also having to do crisis management. Most of the conflict in spn happens when the characters are going through what, for most people, would hopefully be the worst day of their lives. And for our boys that happens again... and again...

I am not saying all of this to say we can't call out specific instances of them not being very kind to each other - Sam strangling Dean, Dean aiming a gun at Sam, Cas beating Dean up in an alley, Dean beating Cas up in s10 etc etc. And I also think it's important to talk about the ways these kind of moments constitute or break from their common behavioral patterns - or don't. Eg in your post about Amara and 15.15, you pointed out that betraying and forcibly sacrificing someone who isn't really a direct threat and is learning and growing is not in line with Dean's usual morals - a break from a pattern. And people often point out Cas' pattern for trying to problem solve solo. (These are just examples and by no means comprehensive!)

All this is to say that I actually think that if they all ever got to be in safe, calm world, got some space and time, they all really really do have values around talking things out (we see this again and again) and listening to the differences in how they feel or want to handle situations. Sam and Dean alone have a staggering amount of conversations at the end of episodes where they had conflict. Dean and Cas have multiple on-screen conversations about what caused tension between them and many off-screen conversations which are alluded to. I don't think any of them are perfect communicators. I think they all have various amounts of introspective capacity and effort at various times. They all have some well-worn and not all that healthy emotional go-tos because of the traumatic lives they have all lead - which would take time and safety to unlearn, unpack, and change.

I know your question was about Dean but there's not much I really have to say about Dean which doesn't apply to the others. I am specifically a die-hard Deangirl(gn) but this logic is what would keep me from making a long post about how Sam or Cas are Toxic(tm) even when I'm seeing them exhibit a specific behavior pattern which is annoying to me.

But the last thing I'll say is much more Dean specific and that is that Dean is sort of always just supposed to absorb and roll with everyone else's opinions and analysis and choices and not react with his true or full emotions or else he gets these labels thrown at him. This reminds me of a time I saw a Casgirl(gn) claim it was okay for Cas to beat Dean up in 5.18 because he was really mad at Dean... ? Or what we were talking about a week ago with the Mia Vallens therapy where Sam's frustration and hurt and anger are listened to and validated - including him lashing out at Dean - and the grief and frustration and cornering that Dean is feeling are somehow not supposed to affect the way he's acting? I'm certainly not the first to point this pattern out by any means but I do think that that's a big contributing factor in labeling Dean toxic while having explanations, exceptions, and excuses for the others.

Lastly, you are never dumping on me though I fear this reply is at risk of being a dump <3 I also don't even know if I really answered your question...

Oh wait, one more thing. I think the way fandom can be so focused on looking for the Victim(tm) and the Abuser(tm) means that, especially in many moments in spn, they are utterly missing that one of the inherent consequences of whichever godawful shit the characters are facing is that their beliefs about how to handle it will be in tension. And that's gonna suck for everyone. But it's actually no one's fault that they're arguing or disagreeing about how to handle it.

[honeypine-the-parrot]

"I feel like there isn't enough subtext in this scene"

and it's Elwood Kirchhoff and c!Athena making small talk. Like wtf do I want them to do? These are the two most straightforward characters ever.

There is no subtext. Elwood wants to know how Athena started working at the Weird Gay Hotel, and Athena is super willing to talk about how they came to work at the Weird Gay Hotel. There is no reason why they cannot have an easy and straightforward exchange of information. And I love that about them.

[pinescent-and-gingerbread]

Phew, was about time to revamp the masterpost a bit! I couldn't stand my green+purple look anymore. Had a lot of fun playing with Arthur's drawing and included some in the headers eheh

[fist-of-vengeance]

this is stupid but why are they wearing the same outfit. like that's the exact same outfit right? down to the elbow patches. how did this happen. did fiddleford take half his wardrobe in the divorce

[icantbotherwithusernames]

Gravity Falls but Bill’s “i like Mabel cuz she’s an agent of chaos” opinion is actually correct

aka a drawing of my au that has been living in my brain rent free for the past several months

[bizzerk]

So how did that couples therapy go?

It was a rough start for sure...

Shes... doing her best ！Σ(￣□￣;)

1/2/3

[uhhlifeig]

sometimes babygirl is a grown-ass man who may or may not have committed several war crimes AND THATS OKAY.

[nenoname]

i'm still obsessed with these two instances, knowing that stan's words end up haunting ford for ages but us never getting to seeing his actual reaction because ford cuts himself off from the scene right before....

also ford quietly staying behind the vending machine to eavesdrop on his family right after declaring that he has to be alone

[joicecubes]

was recently rewatching this scene and… god the way ford looks at him here…

it’s this level of softness we don’t really see on him a lot in his next few episodes, especially when he’s interacting with stan. like yeah, in a moment here he’ll tell stan he needs to get out of his house by the end of the summer, but its like he’s giving himself a second to really take in the sight of his brother. it’s been 30 years. he’s seeing him again for the first time in decades, they’ve both grown and aged without each other. ford just told stan he looks like their dad and he’s watching as stan denies it and laughs and elbows him like the old days, and for a moment ford just looks at him. with this gentleness. he forgets to be mad just to soak in the reality that he’s here again. with stan.

it’s shortlived obviously. and his grudge kicks in a minute later as the extra reality that his house has been transformed into a tourist trap and his identity has been stolen sets in. but that small moment :( ugh how much he must’ve missed him :( it kills me :((

[stoicjewel]

Do we ever talk about how Stanley aged? And I don't mean in a "haha younger twin look older" kinda way, but just how much he ran himself into the ground?

Imagine what Ford was thinking once he got a good look at Stanley. Without the judgement or bitterness, without the haze. REALLY looked at him. His sunken eyes, his thinning and greying hair, the layer of chub that has accumulated on his torso and arms. The amount of scars and marks he had earned.

The realization of just how much Stanley neglected himself in favor of him. Neglected himself in favor of the kids, of the business, of everything.

Maybe even the realization of how HE would have looked, if Stanley didn't swoop in all those years ago. How HE would look if he had to fight sleep at night and work his ass off during the day like he planned. The realization that Stanley took all that burden, and he'd do it again for him in a heartbeat.

[boomposhpow]

PINES FAMILY HOLIDAY POSTING YAYY HOW JOLLY

[soft-pine]

you're one of the few gay dean truthers i trust because you are also very much a "he's not repressed he's closeted" truther (which is just personally not an interpretation i vibe with)

soooo many gay dean truthers (not you) want him to be unaware of his attraction to men until like. Late Late seasons, and it's really hard with me to agree with those takes because i think he figured it out For Sure in season 4-5 at the earliest and season 8 at the latest, if he wasn't already aware of his attraction pre-series. so thank u for being a dean is closeted truther and a gay dean truther.

NBHDKILJEDBHKEJ sorry if this is a weird ask

hi anon! this is so interesting to me! i'm still piecing together some of the difference between spn twt and tumblr cultures.... all my gay dean twitter (rip) besties were arguing in the trenches for closeted but not repressed dean!

i haven't seen much from repressed til late seasons dean gay dean people - but i believe you that they're out there and prolly more prevalent!!

but yeah that's crazy given that he has on purpose, intentionally, consciously, on camera tried to test the waters / shoot his shot with multiple men by like season 4...

i mean i guess it goes along with the people who for some reason think he's oblivious about all his feelings and thoughts and desires or something... despite the reams of evidence that he is acutely aware of each tiny needle of his feelings and every prick of the impossibility of his desires and he's constantly trying to move through the world without becoming a pincushion of open wounds.

i personally kinda think he might have taken a bit to figure out he's gay not bi (for a complicated set of reasons that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the fact that that was my sexuality experience and i see some similarities there!!! haahahahha)

but yeah i very much think he's aware of his attraction to men from like before the pilot... from like before lee... from like...

anyway not a weird ask at all!!! i actually love talking about dean so much so

[honeypine-the-parrot]

crazy? I was crazy once

They put me in a rat

The rooms with rooms

I'm rubber

crazy? I make crazy.

I'm crazy in a room

a rat rubber

rubber rubber

rat room

I'm crazy.

[dandeleon]

it mcgucket monday (da WHOLE family here‼️)

[4thefreaks]

AGAIN!!!!!!!

[heideez]

idk if this was actually “intended” or not (who rlly cares) but i do love the fact that stan lies about his age.

his vague birth year, “i’m pushing seventy and i still eat ice cream for dinner,” it’s all such a performance and its so him.

like we KNOW you are not almost 70. your twin JUST got back from the multiverse and he is clearly in his early sixties 💀 just by nature of the birth range HE TOLD US stan can’t be almost 70. like 😭😭😭

ofc it’s sad tho too bc like…why does he feel the need to do that? to constantly undersell and self-deprecate? to compensate for some perceived inadequacy?

because the authentic version of himself has never been good enough, because he feels like he’s not worthy of the genuine connection he craves.