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princessofghosts-posts · 2 months ago

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ToA: Hidden Oracle Opinion (4/4)

Should had done this post yesterday but I fell asleep-

Anyway. Since the last 3 post on this were more about my thoughts on the book and some of the scenes in it,I'm going to focus more on the whole concept and the technicalities here.

Let's start with something easy,the narrative choice.

Since we are talking about a serie of books focused on an ex-god,especially one like Apollo that know everything,it's important to have a narrative structure that allows you to let him develop and run real risks. And that the same time,you also can't let the readers know everything already though the MC,so you need to find a solution to left the mystery and plot twist.

For this reason Riordan made sure that Apollo was like an amnesiac person,one second he remember everything and then he forgot. And that's a double-edge sword type of narration choice: for the readers it can get annoying,especially when there are enough pieces to arrive at the solution to the puzzle on your own. We are talking about history too here,so if you know enough about the roman empire and it's emperors you already have a good idea of who is who based on the few hits the characters give you. And at the same time is dangerous for the characters too,since they can't think about anything to save their life. But it was the only way Riordan could have pulled this off,since otherwise Apollo would have already knew everything and there wouldn't be a mystery at all.

Returning to only having the MC in first person telling the story,instead of continuing to alternate PoVs like he did in HoO,was the best choice he made. He is more comfortable in it and it's show in the writing style,that is similar to PJO,that HoO missed. And it's also more smooth to read since we are following only one person,while the people around him live their life. This also gave Riordan a way out in case he doesn't want to explore more of certain characters,and focusing only on the ones that interact with Apollo the most like he did with Percy and the main gang.

I don't really have much to say,for now,about the narrative style since I only read the first book,but it's better and HoO and I hope it's stay on the same waves in the next books and don't fell off.

Now,let's talk about the characters and their interactions/dynamics.

Apollo is stuck,he keeps going back and forth between 2 emotions and that's it. Either he is despairing and feels guilty about everything and doesn't remember shit,or he has a bit of self-esteem and know things that until then he forgot. That's it (at least for the first book,hoping to see him get better in the next one-),there isn't anything else. His major internal conflict is about Daphne,about how guilty he is for what happened,and how much he truly loved her (and Hyacinth). And I don't like that. There are a lot of more things he needs to focus on,and having the ex romance be brought back so many times,just to make Apollo more miserable is not a good way to make him understand that he need to change. He already knew that deep down. It's fine if he feel guilty about it,and I know that their myth is tragic and Apollo is clearly hurt by it,but in almost every chapter there is always something that brought her up. Where are the real problems at? Why aren't we focusing on something more than make him feel guilty for everything without giving him a development??

Meg is Luke,that will pull a Silena (without dying) and Nero is Kronos. Their dynamic is similar as them,but there is a special factor here: the one-sided emotional attachment that Meg has thanks to Nero's gaslighting. That fortunately Luke and Kronos never had (Silena for Luke on the other hand....). Ah,manipulators. They are the worst and really know how to mess you up. But I'll talk more about them in another post.

Meg herself is a child that got so abused that decided to close herself and believe whatever Nero tell her,because it's more easy that than seeing the truth. Because the truth would kill her. So she decided to believe in a lie and live with it,like it was normal. And it's been years since she is with Nero,so he brainwashed her in any possible way. He let her live in the streets,probably happy to get rid of her in the maintime,and call it love. And she accepted it and believe in this "love language" (read:Stockholm syndrome) of his. She was hurt,she is hurt and will continue to hurt untill Apollo get her out of there. She needs help and someone that let her understand that it's safe to get away from Nero,since he is an abuser,and that she doesn't need to be scared to do so. Victims of abuse are hard to convince to break free from the cicle after all,and it's realistic for her to be scared and unsure.

Apollo and Meg dynamic will surely become a found family one,with Apollo helping her realize that Nero is,in fact,her abuser and not a caring father figure,and to get her away from him. And Meg accepting that,and finally finding someone that will actually care for her,and will not have to live on edge every day of her life. Like Percy did with helping Annabeth realize that Luke was becoming someone she didn't knew anymore.

The parallelism between all of them is crazy here. Right now this is the subplot I'm invested most. Psychological damage is real and I live for it.

Austin and Kayla were a delight. This is the first time I saw them since I have no memory of them in PJO (maybe they were too much in the background-),and they are so sweet and chaotic. I liked how Apollo had bonding moments with them,and most of the time it was about things that regarded his domains: Austin with the music and Kayla with archery (and Will with medicine). They are really similar and the way they were caring supporting of him,even tho Apollo himself never cared much about his children in general,really slapped him with the reality of being a bad dad. And the way he wanted to get them back to safety was everything,he is trying and I like that.

What I don't like is the fact that Will got (again) push in the back. Where is their significant moment? The bonding time he and Apollo should have got? Will is part of the demigods that were there when the gods were neglecting them and Kronos was starting to rise again,so I can't image how he was feeling seeing his father mortal in front of him and living with him. There must be some hard feeling here. And then watching him interact with his siblings but not him? He must have felt like shit,but at the same time happy because Austin and Kayla finally could be close to their dad. He didn't.

I already said this,but having Austin and Kayla dissapeare/being kidnapped,while Apollo and Will were both in distress,was the perfect moment to have them interact. Instead of spending the night with Meg waiting,it should have been him and Will. So that Will could finally let everything out and make Apollo realize really how much shit the gods are to them and he needs to change asap. Yes,another moral slap but it's needed here since Apollo is still in his god mentality of "let the demigods do the job for me while I do nothing. They will probably die but they will die with honor." It also make Apollo realize how much neglected he is of Will,even with him here,and how much Will suffered because of the gods treatment towards demigods in general. And make also realize Will himself that Apollo does care for him,and will try to be a better father. It's not a fast change since he was like that forever,it will be slow,but he will change. And Will is going to help him with that.

Ok,I love to much this type of angst that I got carried away,sorry-

Moving on to Nico. You all know what my thoughts on him are,especially with his powers. It's been 6 months in which nothing happened since there weren't prophecy,and he is still in the condition of fainting for everything. Not even in HoO,when he was dying and fading away,he was this weak. And I'm going to be pissed about this for the rest of the serie,because I know there would be other moments like this and then Rick will go:"Sike!" and have him kill someone with just a touch.

It's probably worst than Apollo being stuck in only 2 moods,because one moment he is weak,the other he is destroying someone. Pick up one Riordan,you can't have him alternating between these 2 states. Nico is strong enough to use his powers without problems after 6 months of rest,let him grow out of this stereotype.

It's ok if he want Will to take care of him,but he can do that without nerfing Nico more than he already was. It's triggering.

I liked how the old campers and characters are doing their own things now,and are growing out of CHB mentality. There is a whole world for them,and of course there are still a lot of dangers,but this isnt stopping them from going on sith their life. I like that.

Having the Seven still in the narrative,as supporting characters is also a good thing since they are there,but at the same time they are also doing their own things and can't really help Apollo. Percy coming to save the day wasn't something I liked because Riordan always use him as a solution for everything. A character is in danger and can't do shit? Percy pull in and save the day with some powerplay moves that only he can do. Let him go man,he needs to live his life after everything,you can use someone else for that now. Having Leo and Calypso as his quest-mates was something I wasn't prepared for,since most of the thing I spoilered myself were about the later books and Solangelo. I really thought Nico and Will were going to be with him most of the time and I was totally wrong. Their relationships are also interesting since Leo felt at ease with Apollo while Calypso and Apollo are a bit complicated. Can't wait to see how they will turn out.

I liked how we got introduced to new campers too. Some of them were already there during the other books,but were most of the times background characters,while others are straight up new. They also hav more diversity and rappresentation and I appreciate that,but after all Riordan is know for having a whole lot of different characters in ethnicity and sexual orientations. This also gave him the opportunity to flesh out more new characters instead of using the same one as always,in case he want to of course (we all know how he is).

Python got introduced too early in it. Apollo already knew what was the problem and who he had to fight even before the race. Untill then Python was a concept like Kronos was before actually taking control of Luke's body. The "meeting" in the Labyrinth was uncalled for. It was too soon to introduce the final boss of a 5 book serie,and the focus wasn't even on him,but on Nero and the emperors. If Riordan wanted to have Apollo getting closer to his identity he could have had done something else about it. It wasn't even after the first 100 pages of the first book out of 5. At least he waited to introduce Kronos in the last chapters of TLT.

I feel like Python is Gaia 2.0 here,he will have an occasion to shine at the end of the last book (probably),while the emperors are the Giants. They are the main problem Apollo and the demigods will focus on for the rest of the serie,even tho they are not the final boss. That's ok. I hope that it won't end up like BoO final battles,those were horrible.

Also,idk if it's true since I never interacted much with ToA material,but apparently the whole conflict against the Emperors will end up in a war? I'm not even sure myself,but if we have another war I might cry. These guys had just won 2 in a row,in not even a year of distance,and now there is another one coming? We need more therapists than Mr. D because these children needs help.

Since we are back in the greek part of the Pantheon,the world building is the same as PJO.

I don't have issues with that since I always preferred greek mythology to everything else,and PJO world building was pretty solid and was the base for HoO's world building.

The only problem I had was the Labyrinth. But it's something that unfortunately happens with every writer and story,and not only with objects but also with characters.

When a main character story end,and the author continue to write and still include them even when it's not their story anymore,they become side characters. Which means that the beloved character we had before totally change since the author needs them to step down and let the new protagonist take the stage. They become OOC,weak,disinterested or non-existent at all most of the time too. The author plays a lot on the nostalgia,that even with just a reference to the old story,can give to the readers. So in a few words their change can be described in: loosing plot armor and their importance to the plot.

That's something done a lot in anime,cartoons or movies,but also in books too since they need to focus on the new guy and the old one become irrelevant,if not an obstacle to the new MC.

Of course this isn't the case for Riordan since for him it's the opposite. Even with a new protagonist,Percy is always relevant or will always be more powerful than the new guy. We saw that with Jason and everyone else in HoO.

The same thing is also applied to some object: since you need to introduce something new or more powerful,the old one loose their importance or their values.

An example of this are Hazel's powers. Once Hecate told her about her mist powers she concentrate on those and trained those,instead of her own powers,since now she has a more powerful "upgrade". Which is something I don't like because even without her ability to control the mist,Hazel is extremely powerful and it's also bittersweet how she favored the mist to her own nature. But that's on me.

The Labyrinth has the same problem. It was introduced as one of the most insane place ever for a demigod to be,and then little by little it got reduced to something simple,because the books had other dangerous place to visit.

Chris went insane there and Dyonosus had to help him out of it. Clarisse turned back from her mission and didn't want to get back in it. Other demigods that went in there either got lost or died with Luke's traps or because of the Labyrinth in general. In HoH Percy and Annabeth told Hazel that they couldn't use the Labyrinth to get the statue back at camp,because it's too dangerous and unstable,especially with Pasiphaë remodelling it as she wanted,instead of letting be like Daedalus created it. And now campers are having a race in it,without even weapons or some protections or some plan to get out of it.

The Labyrinth cannot be controlled and that's something we already understood in BotL with Annabeth. And now they are trying to see if they can utilize it,like,have you all forgot what happened almost 3 years ago?? You had a battle inside there and most of you died,and now you want to do something you already know it's impossible??? Where is the logic at??

Austin justification of this is because the Labyrinth changed and it wasn't anymore evil,but it's still dangerous and can get you in very bad situations (i.e.: Apollo at Delphi). It's still change and it's still a bad place for demigods to be since the Emperors are also using it to move faster in various part of the world from what I understood. It's like Kronos's army all over again. And that was just Riordan trying to save himself here,since he knew he couldn't have them being in the Labyrinth without downplaying it's dangers.

It's unfortunately pretty common tho,Riordan isn't the first and won't be the last to apply this type of choice. Once something served its role they lose their value and the author can do whatever they want with it. This it's also extended to everything: characters,objects,powers,locations,and everything else in between.

Anyway.

I liked the Hidden Oracle,and even if there were a couple of things I don't agree with,it was better than HoO and I hope the quality won't die between the books. I don't think I will be able to read the second one since I need to do a lot of things for school,but I'm going to buy it anyway in these days. I'll probably continue my reading after my high school exam tho,so I'll need to wait to finish the story.

This doesn't stop me from analyze the new characters and their trauma backstory tho :)

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apollosgiftofprophecy · 2 years ago

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ToA Theory 1 - Apollo's Waking Visions

First official theory post, here we go! :D

Alright. So. After rereading The Dark Prophecy, I started wondering about something. In TDP, Apollo experiences waking visions, where he conks out for a bit and has prophetic visions.

I found this interesting because, well...isn't Apollo supposed to be cut off from prophecy? With Python back in control of Delphi?

Because think about it. Python controls Delphi, the root of all earthly prophecy. This would include Dodona, Trophonius, Herophile, and Sibyl - sure, they aren't strictly connected to Delphi, but it's pretty heavily stated that Delphi just straight-up Makes The Future. It's prophecies are The Big Deal and you Should Listen.

Meanwhile the other Oracles seem more guiding and "beware!" instead of "this is how it's gonna be".

(sidenote: found out there are MORE oracles and I wanna know WHERE THEY ARE IN RRVERSE CANON because I want my boy Branchus okay??? Okay. Branchus's oracle was second only to Delphi let's give Apollo's first boyfriend the attention he deserves!)

So of course, like all great members of this fandom, I started thinking.

Let's do a little family history first. ;)

Buckle up. We go down a deep rabbit hole 😎

Apollo and Artemis are twins, born to Leto and Zeus. Zeus's parents are Kronos and Rhea. Leto's are Koios and Phoebe.

Rhea has connections to Dodona, as we learn in-series, but she doesn't really seem to be all that involved with prophecy.

Her siblings, meanwhile...ho ho ho, they are a WHOLE NOTHER STORY!

Let's start with Phoebe. Phoebe, like all first generation Titans, is the daughter of Gaea and Ouranos. She married her brother Koios. Her children consist of Asteria, Lelantos, and Leto. As well as Artemis and Apollo, her other two grandchildren are Hecate (Asteria) and Aura (Lelantos).

Her name means "bright" and is the root of Apollo's most famous epithet - Phoebus. She is often described as "golden-crowned" and is the Titan of bright intellect, the overseer of Earthly Prophecies, and is the second guardian of Delphi, after her sister Themis. She gifted Delphi to Apollo for his birthday after he defeated Python.

Classic grandmother move.

Anyway. There's a bit of Phoebe lore. Time for her elusive husband :3

Koios. His names means "question" or "questioning", probably because he's the Titan of inquiring intellect. He's also the overseer of Heavenly Prophecies, and has an oracle up in the North Pole guarded by an earth-dragon - you'd know this serpent by the name of Draco, the constellation btw. Additionally, Hyperborea (where Apollo goes in the winter times) is part of his domain.

eyes

Unfortunately, we have very little mythological lore on these two, and even less in the RRverse (I cling to that one (1) Koios scene) which sucks because I love them already BUT it does give me lots of legroom to mess around with canon >:)

Back to the theory now. As you may have guessed, I'll be taking us in a direction concerning Apollo's mysterious grandparents. But what does this have to do with Apollo's visions?

Well. Remember when I mentioned that Delphi is the root of all earthly prophecies?

...look at Phoebe's paragraphs. She's the overseer of Earthly Prophecies, right? So it makes sense she's been affected by Python's takeover too.

(if you've read my fics you'd know this already lmao)

Asteria, Apollo's aunt, is a little trickier. She, too, has a hand in divination, but mainly through the night/stars and dreams. <-will come back to that later.

Koios, again, is overseer of Heavenly Prophecies, and is heavily implied to be able to commune with Ouranos's spirit. This is, apparently, a Big Deal because nobody else is mentioned to be able to do this.

...Except...remember this throwaway line in The Hidden Oracle?

^Apollo can see Ouranos too.

Within this theory is a sub-theory, so to speak - that immortals with the gift of prophecy can see Ouranos, since they can see what cannot be seen. This would include Phoebe, Asteria, Koios, and Apollo.

And it'll make sense why they'd keep it to themselves. Kronos wouldn't have been happy to hear his dad was still around. Neither would Zeus, for that matter.

So here I was. Contemplating. Wrote a few fics based around this idea. And one in particular got me thinking (fic in question being When The Stars Align), and a little ways down the road I realized something.

If Phoebe, the overseer of Earthly Prophecies, would have been affected by Python's takeover...was Koios? Could he even be affected?

Because here's the deal: Koios is the overseer of Heavenly Prophecies. Prophecies from the Sky.

Phoebe's are of the Earth - the Earth that Python has taken control of. And Delphi is the root of Earthly Prophecies - not Heavenly.

That would be Koios's oracle, up in the North Pole with Draco.

...So that means Heavenly Prophecy must have still been in business during ToA.

But then comes the question: If it was still within the gods' control, why didn't they use it?

Well...Draco's there, for one. He's probably the Python-equivalent of the North, and clearly he's still there since no myth has spoken of his death (that I know of).

If you ask me, I just think the gods are too nervous/afraid to try Koios's oracle. They were too scared to face Python, after all, until Apollo arrived. I think they'd be scared of a serpent who comes and goes from the stars as he pleases.

And as for why Apollo hasn't done anything about it...well, I think his fight with Python left him rather scarred, don't you think? He probably went "yeah grandma's oracle is enough" and the only time he ever got close to Koios's was during his time in Hyperborea.

So getting back to the main theory now. (So many rabbit holes to dive into with this post. The ADHD Urge is real)

Since Heavenly Prophecies is still active, but Earthly is in Python's control, I conclude Apollo's visions come from the Heavenly source.

Could they have come from the now-working Dodona? Maybe. But Dodona's all about those windchimes and trees. It doesn't have the Vibe, so to speak, for granting visions.

And remember. Trophonius, Herophile, and Sibyl aren't destroyed/freed yet. They have Zero connection to Apollo at this point because Python cut him off from them.

...but he didn't from the North. From Koios's divine power.

Because remember. Apollo is the god of prophecy.

Not of Earthly Prophecies, like Phoebe.

Not of Heavenly Prophecies, like Koios.

Not of nighttime divination and dreams like Asteria.

Of. Prophecy.

Prophecy as a whole. The entirety. The whole enchilada.

Every part of prophecy he's the god of, be it tarot cards to the Oracle of Delphi itself.

In my opinion, I think whatever Koios's Oracle is, it has just as must power as Delphi. The only problem was that...everybody just left it be. Nobody considered it because:

1) scary dragon

2) scary titan ruled the place

3) honestly at this point I think it's just straight-up forgotten about. Like Branchus's Oracle. I think at one point Apollo himself mentions there are other Oracles besides the ones in-series, but there's so many that his mortal brain cannot comprehend how many.

If the Grove of Dodona nearly faded into obscurity, then I think it's entirely possible Koios's Oracle was forgotten about (or so we think...I'm gonna be chewing on this for a while.)

Coming back round to TDP...I think this is a reasonable explanation about Apollo's visions. To summarize:

Apollo is cut off from Earthly Prophecy, his usual source of foresight that he gets from Phoebe

The unused, near-forgotten-about Heavenly Prophecy side of Apollo ignites to steer him on the right path

This is possible because Apollo is the god of prophecy itself, and not a single subset of prophecy, so he's not limited in the same way Phoebe is

Koios's Oracle is still out there and kicking and I will die on this hill

One problem. What about Asteria? She can interpret the future from the stars...aka the Sky. Like Koios. So couldn't she provide some insight to the future, since she, too, is connected to Heavenly Prophecy?

This is where things get a lil' tricky. And where I really slap on my tinfoil hat and start headcanoning my way through lmao

Basically, I think that since Asteria became the island of Delos (long story) a good chunk of her power is ingrained there. She's not as strong as she used to be, so her foresight isn't as strong.

This, in turn, I think could also serve as a reason why Koios's Oracle is "asleep" so to speak and nearly lost to memory in the RRverse - in fact, I think Asteria and Phoebe are the only ones who bother to remember its existence.

And Leto, of course. But I don't think she wants her son to know of another Oracle with a giant snake guarding it. She's had enough heart-attacks, thank you.

(Same with Lelantos, tbh.)

Canon is my sandbox and I am making some sweet sandcastles out of it XD

TL;DR

Apollo's visions in TDP stem from Koios's source of Heaven Prophecy because Phoebe's source of Earthly Prophecy (Delphi) has been taken over by Python. Koios's source firmly knocks on Apollo's mental doors and decides to kick back into gear to help its titular patron's grandson out. Because Apollo is the god of prophecy itself - every bit of it.

Extras:

I find it fascinating how magic and prophecy are both part of the same family tree (Hecate & Apollo).

and yes. You should expect a fic concerning Koios's Oracle at some point. but no promises on when :3

Thank you for coming to Insane Theory Time With Alder. I hope there will be more lmao

Websites you can look into:

Koios (Theoi)

Phoebe (Theoi)

Hyperborea (Theoi)

#toa theory #ramblings of an oracle #the trials of apollo #trials of apollo #toa #apollo #phoebe the titan #koios #asteria #python #pjo apollo #pjo koios #pjo asteria #pjo python #toa python #toa apollo #pjo hoo toa #percy jackon and the olympians #the heroes of olympus

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