#seperatism discourse

[shadycomputerpolice]

The 4B movement and separatism is really just women having boundaries. I don't even like to get to academic with my explanation for the movement because it is simply women having boundaries.

Anybody with sense can see that. All those "I am feminist but the 4B or seperatism will not" are so fucking stupid. Women having personal boundaries does not warrant any form criticism.

[shadycomputerpolice]

I try not to respond to harshly to reformists because I do not know if I am interacting with adults but the idea that reformism will save all women and girls is very misguided.

I work in International Development and one thing that is for certain is that behavioural change communication is a long, continuous, difficult and expensive process. It is also a tailored process meaning the methodology used in Nigeria will be different from that used in India. The methods used for adults will be different from the methods used for children and so on.

Then there is the question of reach (how many men and boys can feminists reach- mind you, the whole world doesn't speak English), reception (Of those men and boys reached, how many will even listen to the behavioural change communication) and practice. Just because people listen to you doesn't mean they will change their behaviours while some will change their behaviour in the short term but will revert back to the unwanted behaviour (that is why behavioural change communication has to be continuous) . You also need to account for contradictory messages and socialisation (in this case, pro patriarchy socialisation)

Mind you, when these reformists talk about staying back (as if seperatists are leaving earth or retreating to the middle of the Amazon Rainforest) to change men and boys, they are not talking about creating and implementing a worldwide behavioural change campaign to end misogyny, they are talking about evangelism to their close male family and friends and perhaps coworkers and maybe online advocacy (aka calling people out online). All of these methods have limited reach not to even discuss the reception and practice aspects so how is that going to save all women and girls?

Even behavioural change scientists with their knowledge and experience acknowledge that not everyone will change from a behavioural change communication but you ladies with your limited life and professional experiences are going to be the ones that will change men and boys to save all women and girls. Really? Tell me how you plan to achieve that. It is all well and good to make lofty, heroic proclaimations like a politician seeking for votes but talk about the how.

Radblr hot take here but I believe that men are capable of changing to be better. To say that they are incapable of being good is saying that they aren’t fully responsible for what they do because they aren’t capable of being better.

No. They can be better. And they are morally worse and more corrupt for it. Men can choose to fight the patriarchy and treat their female counterparts with respect and dignity. But they choose not to, because they can reap the same or more societal benefits by being misogynistic.

Baby boys aren’t born misogynistic. Sure, they may be born with whatever male hormonal differences do, but that isn’t even 1% of the reason why they grow up to be misogynists.

As they grow up they learn that misogyny is rewarded. As they grow up they are exposed to porn which they choose to use as a sexual role model. As they grow up they watch their parents model a hierarchal power dynamic. They see all of this, and they like it. They choose it for themselves.

I think that men can change for the better. People here hear this and say “you can’t teach them” or “coddling them won’t do shit” and I agree. What women need to do is stop rewarding and enabling their behavior.

We need to free women from human trafficking and exploitation, and we also need to convince women who make porn of their own free will to stop. We need to punish the men who make it. We need to help women out of their abusive marriages, and we also need to convince women who are in relationships with even slightly misogynistic men to end them. We need to have zero tolerance for casual misogyny. We need to start shunning men who are misogynists. We need to hold accountable women who are enabling the men in their lives to hurt other women. Shun men who watch porn. Shun men who say slurs. Stop having their children.

And for the men sympathetic to our cause, we need to convince them to use their privilege as men to further feminist goals. We need them to vote for women’s rights. We need them to intervene during “locker room” misogynistic talk when women aren’t around. We need them to break up the male solidarity around misogyny in a way only they can do.

But we can’t do this as individuals. Strength comes in numbers. Women do face societal consequences for standing up to misogyny. Other women need to defend her and provide for her needs. And in order to do this we need to educate ourselves. Make money. Be independent of men. Become doctors, lawyers, teachers. We need to do everything we can to support women in places where they cannot do these things.

If we can do all of this, men will change. Maybe not the men who are already set in their ways. But those growing up will see that misogyny does not reward them in life. They will not see porn. They will not see their mothers submitting to their fathers and they will not see women submitting to men. And they will choose to treat women as human beings. Because they can.

Radical feminism is not a doomerist movement. I have a future in mind. I hope you do too.

[velvetvexations]

anti-transmasculine discourse makes me feel so gaslit and crazy. right now there’s a wave of “DIY t is so easy to get you just have to talk to any man at the gym” and when clocky pre-guys are like “I think it’s a little bad faith to suggest that outing myself to a random man at the gym is a sound solution to hormone bans and I think that would put me in danger��� they’re like “pussy. it’s so funny how tboys are scared of cis men when most cis men are just cool himbos who would never hurt you. tboys are scared of cis men because they never go outside and are latent terfs.” and all of this after we are constantly told we are pulling a “not all men” if we say some men need reproductive healthcare or talk about feeling isolated when people we have known for years start treating us like predators the second we come out. also the constant implication that terfism is not at all about hatred of men until trans men are scared of cis men, then our trepidation is because of our secret terfism. the goalposts are constantly being moved. trans seperatism is necessary because men are all very dangerous and also cis guys are also all perfect angels who we definitely have no real life experiences of receiving violence from. I feel like these people are literally just getting a kick out of playing a game of “stop hitting yourself” with people they view as physically and intellectually inferior and just aesthetically cringey. I don’t know how to take it anymore.

I know how tiring it all is. To be honest it's really been hitting me lately and really ramping up my depression. Everything feels so bleak and pointless.

I love you though, anon. <3 There's still light left, we just have to keep trying really hard to find it and spread it around the best we can.

[yourfaveisintersex]

If that's ok, can you please explain the concept of TME and TMA? I searched the Internet for good explanation, but couldn't find none that'll be good and simple enough for me to grasp. I know it's harmful for intersex community, but I want to know what to avoid

Anon, I know you have the absolute best of intentions asking this but, kindly. No. I won't, sorry.

I don't support the concept of TME/TMA here (because yeah, intersexist terms, among a million other issues) however I need to set a boundary that this isn't a discourse account and I'd like to not think of transgender seperatism bullshit here.

Please don't ask these sort of questions on this blog in the future, they will be deleted from my inbox.

[shadycomputerpolice]

The Role of Seperatism in Female Liberation

Yes, seperatism will not end patriarchy. I have never seen any seperatist make that claim so I wonder why anti-seperatists like to point that out like their lives depend on it. Also, no singular act, outside of killing all males, can achieve that.

And yes, seperatism is often an individual action. Just like anti-beauty: not shaving, not wearing make up and heels, etc but we still understand that those acts of resistance, even though individual, have value and contribute positively to women and girls' wellbeing.

What seperatism does claim is that it protects women and girls' wellbeing by denying males access to them.

As seen in the images above, for [misogynistic] crimes to happen, all three elements: opportunity, desire and ability must be present and removing just one of them prevents crime. The images above apply to all crimes but since we are talking about female seperatism we can tailor it down to Gender Based Violence (GBV).

Seperatism is about preventing GBV by removing opportunity for harm. Individual seperatists can achieve personal safety in their homes while seperatist communities can achieve community wide safety. So when you claim seperatism is useless you are basically saying crime prevention efforts that focus on denying potential criminals the opportunity to commit crimes is useless. If that is your claim then you have to provide evidence of that.

Seperatists recognise that women cannot influence the ability and desire of males to harm females because behavioural change is self motivated so they focus on what they have control over which is the opportunity for harm.

Now are males, like all predators, going to seek new ways to gain opportunities to harm females, yes of course they are. Outside of GBV, criminals are always changing their strategies especially when their previous strategy becomes well known and people stop falling for it. Using cyber crime as an example because I am Nigerian (LOL), when people stopped falling for the destitute African Prince method, they changed to other methods like romance scams and blackmail. Criminals/Predators are always to seek new ways to catch their victims/prey which is the why the victims/prey must always be alert and aware of the criminals/predators methods so that they can protect themselves.

So yes, as long as men exist, they will be no feminist utopia where women and girls can exist without the threat of violence. We will always need to be on guard and strive to protect ourselves from them no matter the method they use.

Seperatism cannot save all women and girls in the world just like how crime prevention efforts in Ghana cannot save me in Nigeria and I shouldn't even be expecting it to because geography, language barrier, national laws, etc. What can be done is we adapt the methods used in Ghana to our local context and apply it to see results.

Seperatism is an elective individual and geographical community level action that has the potential to save all women and girls but nobody is kidnap unwilling people and hold them hostage.

And I know, someone is going to scream " VICTIM BLAMING" and to that I say, I don't care about being labelled a victim blamer. However, if you have another viable method for keeping women and girls safe, kindly put forward your idea so it can be evaluated. Please note if you suggest "educating men and boys", I will block you because I don't have the patience for that level of stupidity and delusion.

Sidenote:

I always wondered why allegedly smart women will "but child brides in Afghanistan" as a counter to female seperatism. The wins of feminism activism will always be limited by geography. There is no feminist activism that will impact the lives of ALL women and girls. An individual's or organisation's target population will be limited by geography and unfortunately by resources. You can't help everybody applies in feminism too.

Imagine if someone said that about abortion rights in the US. "Fighting for abortion in America doesn't help child brides in Afghanistan". Most people can see how ridiculous and frankly insulting it is to bring up that issue.

[soup-mother]

with your help we can get Donbass seperatism discourse entirely in homestuck typing quirks

[knifegrrrllll]

hi!! im the same anon from before that asked about your perspective on radical feminism.

firstly i want to say thank you for responding!! and as per usual you gave me a knowledgeable response!! (so thank you for that!!) i just a have two questions now,

1) why is radical feminism outdated? (i know you listed points in your first post but i was hoping you could maybe expand on them or give me some other sources to read on (if you’re okay with that!!))

2) what is intersectional feminism to you, how should it be practiced, what are the cores/goals of intersectional feminism? (again if you’re comfortable just giving me sources to read i’m cool with that too!!)

sorry for asking alot of questions, i’ve been getting alot of terf, tirf, radfem, anti radfem (of all types), anti feminism,

(just alot of feminism discourse and infighting)

-on my feed and i’m trying to read everyone’s own points and views and it’s definitely making me confused in more ways than one.

(ofc you don’t have to respond if this is too much trouble, i understand the gravity of my ask!!)

Hiiii omg its u again tysm for sending me another ask bc i love to infodump ab feminism

in my opinion the main genuine reason i really feel radical feminism is outdated is because I believe it has been coopted by a transphobic hate movement. Feminist movements have a long history of being coopted and turned hateful for as long as feminism has probably existed, and a feminist movement being twisted by fascists makes me want to look at what were the factors and causations for this cooptation??

so one I believe that radical feminism was quite radical in its hay day and its best qualities have lived on in other feminist movements, like the radical, direct action pretty much anarchistic methods of taking down the patriarchy and anarchistic ways of organizing, i think we gotta take notes of that and keep it up in 2025. But some of that feminist militancy (right word idk?) is very appealing to fascist 'feminists'. I'll give a historical example; the suffragette movement for the right to vote, in the us and uk the suffrage movement had a ton of issues regarding racism, many of them did not include black women and further oppressed them, many famous suffragettes were anti black, and that bled into their politics. Check out this article ab it: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/04/why-the-british-union-fascist-movement-appealed-to-so-many-women.html <-this article talks about suffragists who joined fascist groups during the rise of fascism and still claimed they were feminists, doing feminism, just like how extremist TERFS do now adays who were previously "radfems"

So, to answer ur question, in this case radical feminist movement being dominated by white women has a big contributer to why It has been easily co-opted. And if you're wondering WHY radical feminism in the first place was mostly a white women movement, you can look to bell hooks criticisms of the culture of radical feminism that caused it to be alienating women of colour (at the time) from the movement, in her book feminist theory: from margin to center. One of which is feminist movement undermining intersections with their movement such as race and class. A big thing in this book that bell hooks talks about, is how the radical feminist movement then (and a little bit now) advocated for seperatism in feminist movement. A reflection of the race and class of the women who dominated this movement in its early days, because as a bourgeois woman, they probably didnt have very meaningful connections with men, in bourgeouis society women are kept in the house as trophies for the bourgeois man, meanwhile women of colour and women of lower class status, despite also being oppressed by men including in their own communities, had a lot of scenarios where they had to organize together with men, men and women as comrades due to shared oppression. From what I remember she makes an emphasis on how this is the case for a lot of black women in america who felt alienated from the radical feminist movement due to seperatist rhetoric.

And in case it isn't clear, the downfall to every feminist movement is lack of intersectionality. If the movement isnt for the liberation of all, then its really for no one but for opportunistic reactionaries to take over and use for their own selfish means. i.e fascists, terfs, etc etc. Basically all of these issues and criticisms of radical feminism are weaknesses, holes if you will that allow in the poison that is reactionary rhetoric and eventually fascism. If you want to learn more about this particular criticism again i implore u to read bell hooks book "feminist theory: from margin to center" (and check out other feminist others who criticize radical feminism bell hooks isnt the only one)

So now modern day, 2025 radical feminism, to me is outdated precisely because i believe it is 100% coopted. The main reason its coopted is because radical feminism is the main feminist movement that causes rifts between woc and the white women in the movement (and yes i know theres also tons of woc in the radfem movement too but to this day the movement itself is still dominated by bourgeois white women and they have the loudest voices in the movement) and modern radical feminist movement still has major major rifts between the transgender community,., and other feminist movements like intersectional feminism is not like that, on the contrary it highlights trans issues. Many trans people are in the intersectional community but from what ive seen irl and on tumblr, most trans ppl i interact with are terrified of radfems.. Many of them don't even know there exist non-transphobic radfems and that means the movement has been dominated, and twisted in the public perception to be a fascist movement and that means its been co-opted.

2) To me intersectional feminism shines a light on the overlapping "intersections" of oppression, examples like how black women experience not just misogyny but antiblack racism, many of which people call "misogynoir" and, then say a black trans women will not just experience misogynoir but also transphobia, many intersectional feminists would now call that "transmisogynoir", these things are more than just ideas and concepts. Misogynoir and transmisogynoir is the leading factor for black women and transgender black women being murdered, assaulted, gone missing in many places all over the world. Indigenous women have unique experiences with colonialism and racism along with misogyny. Women all over the world are being murdered, but the most oppressed of those women are the most vulnerable due to all of the systemic reasons for that, the most vulnerable of us get hit the hardest by capitalist racist patriarchy.

For me the core goals of intersectional feminism, is ironically the same core goal of radical feminism, the root of the problem. But intersectional feminism feels like it looks deeper, the fight for feminism isn't simply just "womens liberation" the fight for true womens liberation is a fight against capitalism, by extension its a fight against structural racism and that includes psych abolition and prison abolition and the abolishment of cops all over the world. The fight for feminism is a fight against the ruling class, the fight against coloniialism and imperialism. That means the fight for feminism means death to america, death to canada, death to israel and all other settler colonies for the liberation of indigenous peoples. The fight for feminism is a fight for everyones liberation. No one is liberated until we all are and i think thats what it means to advocate for intersectional feminism. If you want to read more on this type of feminism authors I recommend: bell hooks, Angela Y. Davis, Kimberle Crenshaw, Julia Serano, please read kimberle crenshaw's paper on the intersection of race and class.

[mama-imperator]

I'm literally so annoyed with the whole "q slur discourse" thing. Thinking Queer is still a slur means you want Queer people to force themselves to conform to a cisheteronormative society. There are also Queer people who are also Neurodivergent and disabled (including myself), and saying Queer is still a slur also means you want any Queer person who isn't neurotypical and able bodied to be forced into conforming to society's ableist rules and expectations.

Queer people don't owe anyone conformity. Thinking that Queer is still a slur and no one can reclaim it means you don't really care about the community. Trying to force Queer people you think are "weird" to act "normal" to get cishet people to like you is essentially victim blaming. Queer people are not responsible for the hate cishet people give to the community. Blaming other Queer people for cishet people's actions is counterproductive and is the result of the exclusion and infighting that's happening in the community.

Queer is an identity and political. Anyone who still thinks it's still a slur supports some sort of exclusion and seperatism within the community, which is why a lot of Exclusionists and TERFs believe that Queer is still a slur. Anyone who wants to exclude one or more groups within the Queer community are the ones that think are the "normal ones" and are willing to hurt other Queer people to seek approval from cishet people. They're basically the "pick mes" of the Queer community and have no issue projecting and weaponizing their internalized Queerphobia on their fellow Queers.

I don't trust anyone who still thinks Queer is a slur. Anyone who still thinks that is either an Exclusionist or a TERF.

[anarchatranny-almanac]

Welcome to the Anarcha-Tranny Almanac!

This blog is a directory of and resource for pronouns, names, and terms, especially related to certain themes. We especially focus on older queer terms and pronouns, and love fulfilling requests for them especially! You can learn more about who runs the blog on our About page.

If you've been struggling to decide on or find a name or pronouns, or are just interested in what older terms, pronouns, and identities might fit you, you're in the right place!

We'll also be posting educational content on various terms, especially slurs that are reclaimed by the community and terms that have fallen out of favor. We'd love to have you along for the ride!

Information on boundaries and interaction under the cut.

We are firmly anti-exclusionism/seperatism. The exclusion of bi women and trans men from lesbianism, women from gayness, nonbinary people from transness, a-spec folks from queerness, etc. is inherently ahistorical and queerphobic, and isn't tolerated here. We do not have a DNI, and anyone can ask for pronoun/name/term ideas, but we will not entertain exclusionism in this space.

We are pro-kink, and anti-minors in kink, including kink discourse. We support kink at pride, and any pride that excludes kink is not real pride. We believe age-appropriate kink education and exposure is vital for queer people of all ages. This blog will not contain any kink-related content that isn't strictly educational, and will always be minor-appropriate.

We do not identify as MOGAI or LGBTQ+ and do not want to be referred to as such. We are not anti-MOGAI, but have had extremely negative experiences in the community (as have many other transfeminine and nonwhite individuals) and do not consider ourselves a part of it. We may use these tags because we understand there's an audience overlap.

[icanbeoriginal2]

I feel bad that I went through the whole gamut of finding radblr.

It's like yayy community, then within 6months,

Oh god why is everyone so anal retentive about aspects that don't matter???

And if you disagree, lmfao go look at gold star discourse. Go look at het sex discourse. Go look at seperatism discourse.

[grenadineghost]

terfs really know nothing about queer history huh

[antiyourwokehomophobia2]

5, 7!

5. separatism

I feel like this could genuinely never work and it wouldn't be as much of a paradise as people think 💀 like, yes, the threat of male violence is gone, but there's nothing protecting you from racist women or homophobic women. Radblr is FILLED with racist and homophobic women, so if the women who preach seperatism are bigots then would minority women really view a woman only commune as a place they wanna go? "oh, we'd keep bigoted women out!!" okay, but then it's STILL not a haven for all women, is it? If bigoted women are left out of women's land then you can't claim it's a place for all women to go in order to get away from men. It's literally a damned if you do and damned if you don't 💀 I'm sorry, but I think it's hyped up way too fucking much. Yea, getting away from male violence would be HUGE and worth fighting for, but I don't understand why people act like it'd be a literal female heaven.

7. hetfem vs bifem vs lesfem

I don't know much about this discourse, but from what I've seen it's pretty nasty and one of the biggest problems in terms of uniting radfems. It's obvious that all three of us have a TERRIBLE time understanding each other. Like, lesfems take issue with bi and hetfems saying "it's easy for you to say 'don't partner with men' since you're a lesbian" but they're low-key exactly right 💀💀💀 it IS easy for lesbians to say to not date men. Like, that's a literal fact and I don't understand why so many lesfems have an issue with this being pointed out. Especially when you consider how many lesbians talk about how lonely they feel without a partner and how hard pining is. I'm not saying osa fems should date men, but I've always thought it was extremely unempathetic to act like the desire for love can be circumvented by throwing yourself into your hobbies. If that were true then why not use that advice for yourself and see if your lesbian loneliness disappears? But on the other hand, I think it's unfair of bi and hetfems to just... Not listen to us on the basis of our sexuality? Lesfems are right when they say men aren't prince charming and whatever you're longing for probably won't be fulfilled by a man. Lesbians lack the rose colored glasses that a lot of women have when looking at men, and that absolutely should be taken into consideration. A sort of "hey, this person sees men without the filter of men being a possible love interest. Maybe I should take their view point seriously." I've always been naturally sympathetic and empathetic, and I know this might be controversial, but I really do think that we're only at each other's throats cause it's impossible to imagine what the other must be feeling.

[shriekinghag]

I feel like I didn't communicate my point well enough. I do not at all believe that feminism is about teaching men to be better and the blackpill discourse - for the most part, from what I have personally seen - isn't the seperatism discourse as it comes by twice a year here on tumblr. I'm practicing 4B myself and I absolutely think it's good and important to advocate for female seperatism, even for heterosexual radfems. And still I disagree with (what I have seen from) blackpilled feminists.

The points I've seen self-identified blackpilled feminists make is:

1. Male behaviour is nature rather than nurture and socialization is powerless to change male behaviour, which means that global liberation of women from male dominance and violence can never be achieved.

2. Therefore, all women must individually make the choice to liberate themselves by being seperatists (etc), and if they don't, it's their own fault if they then get abused, they have proven themselves to be unworthy of liberation.

I believe it's important to examine and criticise women's choices under the lense of how much they align with feminist ideals. Just like we should criticise participation in hetero dating culture and naive romanticism, we should also criticise fatalism and discouraging women from feminist efforts in general merely based on wether they have had or currently have a male partner.

To me feminism is about women's liberation, and that absolutely necessitates dismantling the patrichary, as you said. I do not think that either of the above blackpilled talking points - as I've read them on tumblr, discord etc - is conductive to that goal.

If you find yourself becoming "blackpilled" ... take a week off. Genuinely, log out for a week + do some community service with local feminist orgs.

[the-amber-droid-dreams]

wait so not aggressive or trying to start a full blown debate here but in regards to your last post, what is an mspec lesbian? i've also heard the term thrown around in twitter discourse and the like but still have no clue wtf it is if you could explain in like,, very simplified terms i'd really appreciate that

ofc anon ! always happy to help

this post is usually my go to for definitions, resources, exclu talking points, and history but ill try to expand a bit on those definitions here with my own experiences to help along and make it more understandable

(its gonna be a long post though sorry, its kinda hard to make it short while also making it as understandable as possible !)

-

oh and quick note : mspec stands for multi attraction spectrum aka labels like bi, pan, omni, etc. NOT for male spectrum

-

Split attraction

Yk how ace ppl arent always aro ? Thats called split attraction, and its not just an ace thing. Some ppl are for example homoromantic bisexual or panromantic homosexual and might call themselves mspec lesbians. Personally, im romantically attracted to all genders but sexually attracted to only women !

Mspec lesbian is easier, quicker, and more comfortable to say than the whole "mspecromantic homosexual". Plus barely anyone calls themself a homosexual anymore unless its a joke or theyre a "homosexual female" terf which is,,, yuck

Huge preference towards women

Some ppl like multiple genders but their attraction towards men is so rare that theyre functionally a lesbian

The only time i was ever attracted to a man (in a non comphet way) was a purely romantic crush at 14

I dont want to completely ignore that side of me, bc i Am mspec and i do have the potential to be attracted to all genders, but at the end of the day, my attraction to women is much more frequent and important to me

Calling myself a lesbian just makes sense to me. It communicates what i want it to which is "i like women"

Im not sure ill ever like a man again, so calling myself just mspec feels a bit strange to say the least nor does it communicate what i want

Calling myself both mspec And a lesbian is like saying "i like women !! ,,,and maybe more" which is the most accurate and true to myself

Liking multiple genders that dont include men / Liking women and nonbis

"But nonbis are included in lesbianism !!" and youd be right to say that ! However, not all nonbis are comfortable being put under the lesbian label

Also, lots of ppl seem to define lesbianism as "attraction to women and nonmen" which is,,, not a great definition and just creates a new binary

Nonbis come in a million different flavors and not all of them fit in the "non men" category. What abt transmascs, genderfluid ppl who are sometimes men, and mutligender ppl who are part men ? Are they included in lesbianism ? If not, what do you call someone whos attracted to women and all nonbis but not binary men ?

For a lot of people, the answer to those questions is mspec lesbianism

Reclamation of historical definition

Lesbian didnt always mean exclusive attraction to women. It was used a lot more like sapphic is today. However, this changed with the rise of political lesbianism and lesbian seperatism

Political lesbianism is a political theory that was spearheaded by cis white lesbian terfs in the 60s and 70s, such as Sheila Jeffreys. Its the idea that sexuality is a choice, and that women should choose to be lesbians to free themselves from the patriarchy. It considered lesbians to be ideologically superior to wlm

Lesbian seperatism is a severe form of political lesbiansnism, and is the idea that women should have little to no contact with men at all

This hurt a lot of ppl including mspec women (for liking men), trans women (for being amab) and woc (for working with men of color towards liberation)

It was gross all around and mspecs were pushed out of their own communities. After all that and stonewall, we started getting more bi exlusive groups and orgs which is really wonderful ! Still, some ppl werent too happy and chose to call themselves lesbians or bi lesbians regardless

The trend of reclamation has been ongoing since then and theres tons of historical examples

-

theres some other definitions like fluid attraction and questioning between mspec and lesbian but i think those cover the main ones !

if you have any questions, or would like me to clear anything up dont hesitate to ask :]

[ablednt]

why do you support mspec gays???/gen it sounds insanely biphobic and homophobic to not acknowledge the differences in these groups because there are experiencing unique to both and the distinction and lived experience needs to be addressed so problems can be solved

I'm going to answer this on the assumption you're actually willing to listen to other perspectives and not simply wanting to vent your frustration in something you don't understand.

We support mspec gays because we are mspec gays first off most of us use both labels. This is not a situation of us having a discourse opinion its us being ourselves.

First off the exclusion of bisexual people from monospec labels like lesbian and gay was born from lesbian seperatism (where terfs come from) and before that took off lesbians were using both bisexual and lesbian and it wasn't hurting anyone. It's a historical label thats been in use since theres been an lgbt+ community.

But more importantly for us specifically is none of us will never experience one concrete experience. I do not know if you're plural but if you are not just know there are things that you have never experienced.

I am not, simply, a lesbian because I share my brain with many bisexual people and our feelings are never fully separated. There's always some residual of others here.

Moreover gender is never so simple. If you're multigender for example you may not always be a lesbian as sometimes even the same person you were attracted to is now the """"opposite"""" gender. There's people who simply cannot or do not want to define their experiences from terms created solely by singlet monosexual cis people.

If you see people choosing to identify as what makes them as queer people comfortable and what most accurately describes their experiences and consider that queerphobia then that's the issue. Especially when, again, you can very easily find first hand accounts of bisexual lesbians as far back as the 70s. How are you going to call a lesbian lesbophobic for existing? /nm

[marmorada]

the seperatism discourse from weeks ago still isn’t dead yet and you’re still putting it on my dash are you guys fr