#wot replies

[butterflydm]

So I read a few of the Josha interviews and he mentions that in s3 the Randfear dynamic continues and it continues to get more fucked up so there's definitely more fic fuel in s3

I was just reading those with much interest! I'm really intrigued by the way that Josha is describing the vibe of the relationship in s3 (he compared her to the Devil in one of the interviews but then also said he wants Rand to marry her, lol) and... if they do the doorway in s3, then that will lead to him feeling much more conflicted about what happens than he did in the books and it's a smart way, potentially, to get the audience to understand why Moiraine needs to set up a situation where she can get rid of Lanfear without Rand's involvement, because it's Lanfear herself that Rand feels conflicted about and it's not just Can't Kill A Woman Issues making it so that he is unable to do anything when she confronts him.

Or even if they wait until s4, but if Lanfear gets ~dealt with~ at the end of s3 then it makes a lot of sense for Josha to hype up that relationship in particular because it will be reaching its emotional climax during that season.

I'm actually really curious if/when they potentially bring Lanfear back in the final seasons (whether it be with Natasha or they recast due to TDO reincarnation stuff), if they'll actually have her choose to reject TDO (because her being able to choose the Light while NOT getting the prize of the man she wants at the end of it would be the real test of her character).

It really sounds like she's going to lean hard on ~no one understands you like I can, Rand~ in s3.

[clearancecreedwatersurvival]

trying so hard rn not to be a huge cunt to people who are just upset because their fave died but it sucks to be one of apparently only a handful of people who loved the finale while everyone else is insisting the show is trash now because of it.

just like what happened when season two ended ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[moghedien]

Do you have any thoughts on Wheel of Time/Arthurian Legends parallels? Robert Jordan obviously took some inspiration for the names (Galad being the most obvious imo, I'm always accidentally calling him Galahad), but do you think it was any more than that because for the most part I really don't think so. I think Galad/Galahad has a fair few parallels, but that other than that there's basically nothing. Nynaeve/Nynyve/Nimue are witches, I guess. I can see nothing with Egwene/Guinevere at all.

Honestly I'm not sure any of it goes much deeper than the names though I'm hardly an expert on Arthurian stuff to know for sure

but the very similar names aren't really specific to just the Arthurian parallels. You have a good chunk of the Forsaken being named after demons/devils from Christian demonology literature (Bel'al, Asmodean, Sammael, etc.) and ok sure guess that one makes sense. Graendal is very clearly just Grendel from Beowulf but also is not anything like Grendel. Rand is the one with Thor in his name, but Perrin is the one with hammer and Mat is the only one that has extensive very obvious Norse inspiration but not the name to match as far as I'm aware. Min seems to be derived from Minerva, and has some very Greek things going on but is much more a Cassandra figure. The tuatha'an are named after the Irish Tuatha Dé Danann but have basically no similarities, while a related group from Irish mythology, the aes sídhe are very clearly where the name Aes Sedai comes from and yeah that makes more sense. Hell, there is a Mesopotamian goddess of fish named Nanshe and I'm like 50/50 on whether that's just a coincidence.

As far as Arthurian goes, the names that seem to make the most sense to me are Tar Valon (Avalon) and Amyrlin (Merlin).

There's a lot of names from a lot of different places and some of them are completely random with no apparent reason while like a handful do kinda make sense I guess.

I think its more than anything, to subtly (or not) ground the story in the fact that it does take place in our world, so there are familiar names floating around but a lot of them are in very different contexts.

overall, I don't think there's much more to it than to just go "huh that's where this name comes from" for most of them

[squirrelwrangler]

so glad to read your takes on the finale - I got extremely into wheel of time THIS WEEK, especially moiraine and siuan, and though I've only just finished season 1 I got quite completely spoilered yesterday by upset fan reactions which really worried me about watching the rest. So I'm glad to read more positive takes which don't make me feel quite so much like this is a terrible alternative to a book storyline that I haven't read

You're welcome and I hope you still enjoy the series- Season Two and Three are leaps in quality (just as the books are to each other), as someone who loved Season One. I hope you continue to watch and enjoy. If not, that's okay, Anon.

The problem is that Wheel of Time Show isn't "the Moiraine and Siuan Show" and shouldn't be the only reason to watch or you'll have your heart broken. No more than the Books are "The Rand (and Mat and okay Perrin) Books", which is where a lot of the opposite energy of show hate is coming from (aka Bookcloaks aka fandom misogyny and racism rears its ugly head). Which, I am a poster child for "ignores the protagonist and falls in love the supporting cast and doomed dead backstory characters". It's why Wheel of Time is a favorite of mine. Almost nothing but side-characters.

And because the spoilery thing that got everyone upset yesterday is something I predicted would be changed for the show from before Season One even aired, I have braced myself for this storm for a few years. Even as it was a change that I knew from the beginning that I would be ... not only okay with but sort of rooting for, because of how the book story-line is. Which tells you how favorably to view this book storyline.

Also why I'd recommend New Spring for show-only fans of Moiriane and Siuan but will be hesitant about reccing the rest of the series. I don't like the prequel more than the main books, but it's the one that will give you those specific characters as (imperfect) queer rep. And is more indicative of the series' tone and strengths and structures than The Eye of the World. TEotW is a bit of a weird one and before RJ found his footing. It's why Season One is clearly not an adaptation of the first book but the show-runners looking at the whole series.

If the show was just an adaptation of the prequel, it could be the fishwives heroic fantasy tv show that a large section of fans wish it was. Because, honestly, we don't have that TV show yet. And/or those shows keep getting cancelled. And that is righteous rage.

Also- Moiraine and Siuan break up during New Spring. Amicably. And move onto male love interests. But I stress that WoT and RJ were "fair for their day/confused but has the right spirit/problematic and mileage may vary/If you drop this series because you bounce off of how women and queer rep is written I won't blame you". It's because while for me and others it was a progressive series, there are deep problems to which the show works to rectify. But that was one of the main show adaptation choices, to change that aspect of New Spring, even if it would lead to BYG backlash accusations because of choices that would have to make involving Moiraine or Siuan or both. Saying "So in this turn of the Wheel they stay together longer, they try to make the personal bond work and as show-runners we are making to choice to make Siuan and Moiraine undeniably queer". It's not the Turn of the Wheel where it's not bittersweet - but this time the glimmers of hope are there. Makes it hurt more. But proud, I guess. And thematically final book appropriate in a meta way.

Claiming that the book alternative would be a better storyline to what the show gives is, to me, a lie. Angers me. There's a wish-fulfillment alternative to what the show does that fans of Siuan/Moiraine want, yes. It's not what's in the books. It's not feasible for the show. There's an alternative version of the book plot-line that I edited in my head as I read it that still isn't really satisfying and doesn't have the relationship that so enriches the show version and would not work, would not appease fans. The show version looks like it'll become a version that will make me happy.

I'm a book fan, I read these as they were coming out as a teen, Wheel of Time is formative and dear to my heart - and it is so deeply flawed. And the show even in its missteps is just as loved in my heart.

[emillungs]

Your colours are so nice 🗣 how do you set a palette for a piece or restrict yourself? (Also apologises if you've already made a post on this :') )

when coloring my work i often start by setting a warm color as underpaint and then i build things on top of it. like this

i use a pressure sensitive brush so i can choose where the underpaint pops through (eg. blush and shadows) this also helps to make the whole thing more coherent

when choosing the underpaint color i try to pick one that will be the most present through the drawing. also after setting the important/local colors i stop myself from adding more into the canvas (i just use eyedrop for further details like base shading)

i feel like the best tip i could give you for restrictive palettes (that i only recently realized) is that you can just. recycle colors. seriously just use the same colors for different things. i loveee using the skin color to paint the hair :)

[daughter-heir]

Does the WoT show still have all the weird bio-essentialism wrt sex/gender and magic?

Hi - yes it keeps the saidin is for men/saidar is for women thing. It seems like they’re trying to brush over some of the issues that poses in the show. Like a lot less focus on the battle of the sexes stuff that gets very annoying in the books. I trust the writers enough that I could see the issues with it being addressed in a meaningful way later on though idk how

[whatajahwouldtheybe]

tbh....some of these i'm like. 'they'd swear to the dark and transfer from their first ajah to the black ajah actually'

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

There are no Darkfriends in the White Tower. That is a vile slander made up by the Tower's enemies. 😌

[markantonys]

okay, here's prime's official press release confirming that luke is gawyn who is the middle sibling, and callum is galad who is the oldest sibling. so hopefully that's an official case closed on all the day's chaos!

[faircastle]

i'm going to be working on your gif requests for wot throughout, so i'll be pinning this post to specifically encourage you to send me any requests you might have as season 3 airs. the speed at which i can fulfill them might vary, but i'll try to get to them.

[butterflydm]

Since you're on a reread right now (and I don't have the spoons for one), I'm curious: does Min pass the Bechdel test after she leaves Salidar?

Oh, that is a huge task, anon!

Haha, off the top of my head, I can't think of any -- maybe her telling Melaine about her being pregnant, if you count her napping on Rand's lap as her 'leaving' her earlier conversation and starting a new one, oh but Rand is still part of that convo, so I guess it doesn't count. Ah, maybe a super-late series conversation she has once she leaves Rand's side counts.

I know that most of the female characters talk to other female characters about plot points fairly frequently but once Min gloms herself to Rand, most of her conversations happen with at least one man around or a man as the object of the convo, I think. But actually sifting through the books to check would be a pretty big task.

What I can do is run a general search on my pdfs and see if I get any results that might count. I'm going to use "Min said" or "said Min" as my search phrases, which is not ideal and probably won't find every time she talks to someone (it misses any time she was introduced in a scene via prose but then Jordan used "she said", for example) but should hopefully give an idea.

TEotW: the only time she talks to someone 'on-screen' in this book is her conversation with Rand, so nothing in this book.

TGH: has ten conversations in this book. First one mentions Rand; second one mentions Galad and Logain; third one mentions Rand (and is the first occurrence of her blaming Rand for things that are her own choice); fourth one mentions Doman; fifth one counts!; sixth is with Doman; seventh one counts!; eighth one counts!; ninth one is about Rand; tenth is with Rand. So 3 out of 10 aren't about or with men.

TDR: has four conversations in this book. First one is about Rand; second one is about Rand; third one is about Rand; fourth one is about Rand. So 0 for 4 in this one.

TSR: has four conversations in this book. First one mentions Gawyn; second one is with Gawyn and Galad; third one is about Rand; fourth one is her helping Leane and Siuan escape and counts; fifth one is with Gawyn. 1 out of 4.

TFoH: has five conversations. First one is about Gareth Bryne and Rand; second one maybe technically counts but Min is thinking about men a lot during it; third one is about Logain; Elayne and Min's reunion technically counts because they don't mention Rand out loud but he's the obvious subtext; and then they do talk about him in the fifth conversation. So... two half points adding up to one full one?

LoC: has six conversations. First one is about Rand (and is Min expressing the idea that Rand is the only thing that gives her happy thoughts); the second is about Rand; the third is her reunion with Rand; the fourth technically counts but is about her escaping Merana and the embassy so that she can go see Rand again; the fifth is Perrin introducing Faile and Min; the sixth is with Rand. So maybe half a point, but that 'conversation' is a single line of dialogue and the subtext was about Rand.

ACoS: has four conversations. First one is with Rand; second one is with Rand; third one is about Rand; fourth one is with Rand. 0 out of 4.

TPoD: has three conversations. First one is Min fetching drinks for Rand and Dobraine; second one is with Rand; third one is with Rand. 0 out of 3.

WH: has seven conversations. First one is with Rand; second one is with Rand; third one is about Rand (Min talks about how she "doesn't tell him things he doesn't need to know"); third one is the group love confession to Rand; fourth one is about Rand; fifth one is with Rand; sixth one is about Rand; seventh one is with Rand. 0 out of 7.

CoT: has one conversation, with Rand. 0 out of 1.

KoD: has eight conversations. First one is about Rand; second one is about Rand; third one is with Rand (and is the infamous "Min struts sexily through corpses on a battlefield" scene); fourth is with Rand; fifth is with Rand and Loial; sixth is with Rand; seventh is about Rand; eighth is about Rand. 0 out of 8.

TGS: has nine conversations. First is with Rand; second is with Rand; third is with Rand; fourth is about Rand; fifth is with Rand; sixth is with Rand; seventh is about Rand; eighth is about Rand; ninth is about Rand. 0 out of 9.

ToM: has seven conversations. First is about Rand; second is with Rand; third is with Rand; fourth is with Rand; fifth is with Rand; sixth is with Rand; seventh is with Rand. 0 out of 7.

AMoL: has fourteen conversations. First is with Rand; second is with Bryne; third is about Bryne; fourth is with Mat (and features their bizarrely appearing from nowhere friendship); fifth is with Mat; sixth is with Mat; seventh is about Mat; eighth includes Mat but most of the scene is a conversation between Min and slaver princess; ninth is with Mat; tenth is about Gareth Bryne and Mat (her convo with Siuan); eleventh technically counts but it's her leaving a helpless slave to die while cursing her for not helping (when Min should know that it's impossible) and is only two words and is said along the way to rescuing Mat, which is her focus in the scene; twelfth is with Mat; thirteenth is about Mat; and her last scene in the series is about Rand. So... half a point out of 14, I guess?

Just for comparison's sake, I'll pull out a random book for Aviendha and see what I get. I used a randomizer to give me a book number between 3-14 and got 9, so Winter's Heart. I'll use the same criteria ("Aviendha said" and "said Aviendha"). I'm doing Aviendha instead of, for example, Elayne, because I feel like Aviendha is closer to the same kind of secondary character status as Min, while Elayne is a main character so she's going to be talking a lot more.

Aviendha in Winter's Heart: ten conversations.

First conversation is her first-sister bonding with Elayne. While it does touch on Rand during the confessions, the bonding itself is a whole group of women talking about a bonding ceremony between two women. Still, for fairness sake, I won't count it.

Second conversation is talking with Birgitte about Nynaeve. 1 point.

Third conversation is with Birgitte, Elayne, and Nynaeve and they talk about Dyelin's loyalty and Aviendha teases Elayne about her being overly proud. They do mention male assassins during the convo, so I won't count it.

Fourth conversation is the love confession with Rand (as mentioned above).

The fifth conversation is introducing Min to Birgitte. Again, Rand is somewhat mentioned here, so I won't count it.

Sixth conversation mentions Elayne tricking people into thinking Mellar is her kids' dad, so doesn't count.

Seventh is Aviendha and Elayne talking about pregnancy and the Kin, so that's a second point.

Eighth is Aviendha, Elayne, and Birgitte talking over plans; third point.

Ninth is Aviendha talking to Birgitte about Elayne. Fourth point.

Tenth is Aviendha talking to Master Norry to get him to leave a very-tired Elayne alone, doesn't count.

For 4 out of 10 for Aviendha there.

[clearancecreedwatersurvival]

Bookcloaks and BSand don’t like the show cause they hate to see Egwene and Moiraine enjoyers win.

[cozcat]

for the first time I am considering getting into Wheel of Time after seeing you post about it forever and I Am Scared Of The Potential

as someone coming up on two years of chronic brain rot, I fully encourage this! but my advice on how to go about it:

start with the TV show - it's far more approachable and less dated

blacklist #wot book spoilers. you'll actually have context for the spoilers.

don't feel pressured or obliged to read the books - I read them because I was getting twitchy at the thought of not reading them

if you do read them though: get the disclaimers list. the short version is that they're pretty dated in some ways and nobody wants you going in expecting something you won't get

also: DO NOT GOOGLE THINGS. ask people in the fandom, let us know where you're at in the series, and we will happily give you a spoiler-level-appropriate answer.

seriously don't even google to check spellings because the suggestions like to tack on "death" or "marriage" or allegiances and I've had friends get spoiled on major stuff just checking someone's surname

truly there is so much to love in this series but not everyone develops terminal brain worms over it and all I can say is: join us, you'll have fun, it's not a cult I swear. you might get off lightly and have another fun fantasy series you like and are normal about! you just also. might not.

[squirrelwrangler]

What is Wheel of Time about

Book or TV show?

The book series is 14 very thick fantasy novels with a very large cast (of which when broken down has more named female characters than male) and multiple plot lines. It helped to inspire A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones - but it is far less bleak and has way less sexual violence (a easy accomplishment). If you’re also familiar with the Dune movies/tv shows and Lord of the Rings, you’ll also see parallels. And like a lot of fantasy it has SF elements. And if you like Dreamworlds and Alternative Realities and glimpses of the past and such, yeah. Written in the 90s by an old cis straight white guy, but one that was in many ways progressive for his time, so your mileage will vary. There’s a post that answers almost exactly this same question that I wrote years ago that goes into this a little more.

But what is it actually about? It’s called Wheel of Time because the central premise is the world operates as a long circle of time with narrative-driven reincarnation. The book/show world is both the inspiration of all of our real world legends and our far far future after magic is discovered thousands of years in the future and a few calamities have leveled it. What that means is there’s a lot of Easter Eggs and familiarities if you know your mythology, in particular Arthuriana. For instance, a character hangs from a tree and sacrifices an eye to gain knowledge, has a pair of ravens symbolically important, and their personality is also very trickster-like. At no point are they called Odin, but if you know Norse Mythology, you go “oh yeah this guy inspires stories about Odin or is his reincarnation”. There’s a lot of vague Jungian and Vedic inspiration if you can’t tell.

Okay, really.

3,000 years ago was a high-tech peaceful society where some people could do magic and thus worked as public servants, very utopian. But then Evil Personified was unsealed, monsters and war unleashed, some of the wizards turned evil, long war was fought. One of the most powerful wizards, a man nicknamed Dragon, seals away both the Dark One and the top evil henchmen wizards - but it was a patch job. Evil monsters still around, people still pledge loyalty to cause evil. And as a counterattack during the sealing, the Dark One is able to place a sickness on the male half of the Power which forces every male wizard then and in the future to go mad. In their madness they destroy the world. Thousands of haywire magical nukes would do that. Female side of wizard Power is still okay, so only female wizards left. They help rebuild the world; societies that re-emerge are thus far more matriarchal than the real world. Men would can use magic are hunted down before they can go mad and start hurting themselves and others. People are understandably Terrified of Male Wizards. Only female wizards allowed. These female Aes Sedai, their Wizard Vatican City, and their factions are a large portion of the plot of both book and tv show. Do you want to see a lot of middle-aged women in gorgeous costumes fighting with magic and scheming? This is the show for you.

So, 3,000 years later, the Pattern that controls-and is created by- the Wheel of Time (lot of weaving and loom metaphor in the metaphysics) decides that the Dragon needs to be reincarnated along with a couple other key people in order to have another Last Battle against the Dark One to hopefully start a new turn of the Wheel/new age (and on evil’s side here’s the chance to reset things in their favor or break the Wheel itself).

Moiraine, an Aes Sedai, learns through a prophecy that the Dragon has just been reborn, so she spends the next twenty years trying to find them before evil does. There’s a long list of accumulated prophecies about the Last Battle and the people and events around it people are also worried about. Lot of plotting as everyone thinks they have the best idea of how to do it. Again, in comparison to Game of Thrones where almost everyone was scheming to win the Iron Throne and ignoring the White Walker invasion, think of it as here all the rulers know about the White Walkers coming and they’re fighting wars with each other to be the one to lead armies against the White Walkers because only their plan will work.

A common joke is that this very very long book series would be much shorter if characters properly talked and coordinated with each other. Teamwork is a central theme (both when you have it and when you don’t).

In an isolated community (think The Shire but instead of hobbits it’s a bunch of tax dodging Appalachian hillbillies or Elizabethan yeoman) Moiraine finds five young people that the Pattern has singled out as Very Powerful Main Characters. Okay, she thinks, one of them is the Dragon Reborn.

Problem is, none of them want to do the Magic Quest Protagonist Plot Stuff; they know that sucks. Moiraine has to get them to do it anyway. Our Gandalf figure is a middle aged queer woman (with a strictly platonic soulmate bodyguard) who has trouble with sharing the whole truth to other people (she is magically forbidden from outright lying) stuck herding a bunch of cats named Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Egwene. And later Nynaeve. By the end of book one/season one we know (but the rest of the world doesn’t) who the Dragon Reborn is - and that they need their friends and others by their side to have a chance of winning the Last Battle. All of them are main characters. Yes, the Dragon Reborn is Main Character- but more than one book in those 14 has barely any page-time dedicated to them. Plot is a Tapestry; not a line. That’s the least spoilerly explanation that I can give.

The tv show is about to start season three in a week (which will be mostly plot from book four, arguably the best book). Each season is eight episodes. Covid and recasting issues meant that the finale of season one had to be reworked and the first book was always the weakest with an infamously weird/weak ending. The show obviously had to change a lot form the monster book series, but it has imho the spirit of the books and often improved them. The casting is diverse- properly so instead of just tokenism- which pissed off a lot of racist fans. That and changes from books and that the main showrunner is a gay man means that there’s a vocal online faction of haters. My two main fantasy series, formative in fact, are Wheel of Time and the Silmarillion/Tolkien. I ADORE the Wheel of Time tv show but I could barely watch any of Rings of Power. Make of that what you will.

Hopefully, anon, this was helpful.

[amyrlinegwene]

Also, before I start the next episode, I would not have known that was balefire if I hadn’t seen people talking about it two weeks ago/the parallels from Caemlyn. Like the screen was so dark, but I could’ve sworn I saw Sammael’s body in the rubble?? Which isn’t that impossible with balefire it disappears the body? I don’t know. Let me know if I’m forgetting something.

[daughter-heir]

I have a WOT question for you I’m not a book reader just the show so I thought maybe you’d know the answer, in the first episode at the beginning when Liandrin is telling everyone the things Siuan did that she thinks could get her in trouble she says that she met with Moiraine but I’m confused why that would be bad? I know Moiraine was banished from the White Tower but why would that stop Siuan from being able to meet with her outside of the tower?

Great question!!! I’m honestly kinda rusty my lore so some of this may be off lol but I think since the start of their hunt for the dragon, Moiraine and Siuan had pretended to have a falling out to keep other sisters from being suspicious. So it was a scandal that not only was she meeting with someone that she banished, but someone that she supposedly fell out with too. Suspicious to the other sisters! Siuan was also part of the blue ajah, before being Raised, and they’re known for their plots, schemes, and spy networks. So them meeting when she was exiled was sus. Hope this is helpful!

[whatajahwouldtheybe]

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