altruismaboveall

[altruismaboveall]

This for anyone looking for a better explanation than I gave on Spartan Penelope.

Hi! Love your takes and all! What do you think of people talking about Penelope being all buff and strong physically as she was "Spartan?" or that she find Odysseus more attractive with blood plaster on his body as she is "Spartan" or such?. Is it true in the Epics? I read something about a Lykurgus or something..I just want to have a nuanced answer to that, also sorry for the silly question.

You are very kind Anon and I am glad you find them useful

Okay for starters I think this whole thing is a massive stereotype in regards to Sparta that "they are all sexually aroused by blood and violence". I mean yes Sparta as we know had an extreme military outline but it is not like they all just killed around to have fun like a twisted version of Asterix village or something. They valued war and the strength in war of course and they took pride to their warfare and all but yeah I think the whole thing of "oh gosh! Blood! Foreplay for Spartans" is just a joke that goes too far sometimes (although we DO have some exaggerated sources about the Spartans but, surprise surprise, they come from their main rival, Athens so yeah one needs to consider that too. So yeah although the Spartans were strictly military I do not think it is actually realistic to say that they all went like:

lol XD

Two this "Sparta" that they mostly mention is at least 100 years if not more away than the "Sparta" mentioned in the epic cycle. You see the Epic Cycle might have been synthesized at the 8th century BC but the events taking place in it, reflect on the Bronze Age or the Mycenean kingdoms which existed before. These "Spartans" everyone speaks about is usually referring to the Doriean Spartans. The Dorieans were a Greek set of tribes with their own dialect that came down from the north at the year around 1100 BC, around 100 years after the estimated date of the events of the Trojan war and they got to remain to the areas such as Macedonia or Lacedaimona aka Sparta thus we have Macedonians and Spartans speak Doric Greek dialect while Atheneans speak Attic Greek dialect and the Asia Minor greek cities speak Ionian etc Either way as I said the events of the Trojan war happened around 100 years before this Doric Tribe descend much less till the strictly military spartan system to be fully crystallized. So we need to think of that. And even then it is not like the Spartan women were some sort of body-builders who didn't have any sort of binary roles to their society or being active warriors in armies etc (don't mistake them for Amazons guys! Hahahaha!). They did actively excersize more than most Greek cities at that time and they did take part in athletic events more than let's say Athens (Athenean women by n large seemed to participate in sports such as running and those were exclusively for Hera's celebrations) so we can imagine they would be more athletic than the average Greek lady but that doesn't mean they were soldier-trained or anything. The military training was for boys at the city of Sparta. And women still had their own binary roles in their respected society, they just had some more freedom as compared to their Athenean counterparts.

So even if Myceneans DID have a more military form of society or at least based on the findings they did focus on warfare to their art and such and the building of their walls and all they still wouldn't be the same as the doric Sparta that were exclusively military. Could perhaps mycenean Sparta have the basis for the future doric Sparta? Perhaps but I doubt we have sufficient evidence to say they are identical.

Three. I believe that people who wanna desperately depict Penelope as some buff lady, misses the concept of Penelope's strength in the Odyssey. Penelope was not strong because she could fight with the sword. She was strong because she was mentally steadfast, clever and resourceful and enduring and she managed to hold the kingdom of Ithaca steadfast by herself for 20 years. It wasn't about her being buff lady. Homer does seem to imply she was tall and stoutly buillt; see my other post where I mention her physical description in Homer:

but not buff as "I'm gonna kick your ass" buff and all. Homer doesn't mention that any of the Spartan princesses have some specific training (Helen Clytemnestra or Penelope) but later literature implies that they have basic knowledge on weaponry (for example in later 5th century dramas and above Clytemnestra not only is seen wielding a weapon but knowing some basics as to how it was made) but it needs to be said that the posthomeric sources were also influenced by their contemporary Sparta aka the doric military Sparta. Homer doesn't imply that this strict military doric way of life was part of his lore but he does imply that Sparta relies more to its military (as compared to Ithaca or Pylos for example) so maybe he attempts to create the illusion of historical continuation but either way no this whole "300s-like" Sparta was not crystalized yet to the times that Homer synthesized his poems much less to the time of Bronze Age.

And there is no hint that Penelope goes "WOW BLOOD!" that seems to me one of the overused jokes on the internet, again emanating by the whole series of Sparta stereotypes used for comedy. It was in fact Euryclea the one to almost welp in happiness seeing Odysseus covered in blood and that was because Odysseus had killed the men she hated. Penelope doesn't show such a thing. Odysseus also washes himself up to be presentable to her. And even in posthomeric sources Penelope was not linked to physical strength but rather with the strength of her mind and the purity of her intentions (well...except maybe from Parthenius narrative if I recall correctly. There Penelope is pictured as scheming in jealousy against one of the sons Odysseus ellegedly produced and manipulated her husband to kill his illegitimate son)

As for the last part I am not sure what you are referring to? Are you referring to Lycurgus that is mentioned in some later sources as king? I did find for example the reference of Plutarch (who lives much much later) that he implies that Lycurgus lives at the same time as Homer or possibly had met him personally but is that what you are referring to? Either way I assume you refer to the historical person rather than some mythical figure because in homeric realm we do have rulers such as Tyndareus (the king of Sparta father to Helen and Clytemnestra) and Icarius (father to Penelope). It seems that Homer with the mention of the two rulers, even if not directly mentioning it, seems to be winking at the later but still ancient custom of doric Sparta to have two kings but I am not sure if that truly was his objective (and therefore creating an anachronism most likely)

I hope that answers your questions a bit

[altruismaboveall]

Wish I saw this sooner because I wouldn’t have made a whole post debunking Ares lol….

Ares is not the protector of women in greek mythology.

He is never presented as such in any source, there is no evidence such a role was ever assigned to him in any account, and as far as I'm aware this popular yet unattested assertion is born from the echo-chambers of tumblr. In fact quite the opposite could be argued. CW for sexual assault.

This baffling claim seems to originate from a sort of shallow examination of the way Ares "behaves in myth", and the following arguments are the most frequently presented:

1. Ares protects his daughter Alkippe from assault, and is therefore morally opposed to rape. (Apollodorus 3.180, Pausanias 1.21.4, Suidas "Areios pagos", attributed to Hellanikos)

Curiously this argument is never applied to, for example: Apollo for defending his mother Leto from Tytios, Herakles for defending Hera from Porphyrion (or his wife Deianeira from Nessos), or Zeus for defending his sister Demeter from Iasion (in the versions where he attacks her), among other examples. The multiple accounts of rape of the previously mentioned figures did not conflict with these stories in greek thought: they're defending family members or women otherwise close to them. This sort of behaviour is not uncommon, even in contemporary times, e.g. a warrior has no ethical problem killing men, but would not want his own family or loved ones to be killed. The same goes here for sexual assault.

2. There are no surviving accounts of Ares sexually assaulting anybody.

The idea that the ancient greeks pictured that, among all the gods, Ares was the only one who shied away from committing rape borders on ridiculous. In this case absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The majority of surviving records of Ares' unions are presented in a genealogical manner, and do not go into details about the nature of said unions. This is by no means uncommon for most mythographers, where most sexual encounters are presented as such, and details of specifics are to be found elsewhere. However, common motifs that are found in other accounts of rape also appear in stories concerning Ares' relationships, e.g. tropes like shape-shifting/the use of disguises, the victim being a huntress, secrecy, and the disposal of the concieved child, are to be found in the stories of Phylonome and Astyoche respectively:

Φυλονόμη Νυκτίμου καὶ Ἀρκαδίας θυγάτηρ ἐκυνήγει σὺν τῇ Ἀρτέμιδι: Ἄρης δ᾽ ἐν σχήματι ποιμένος ἔγκυον ἐποίησεν. ἡ δὲ τεκοῦσα διδύμους παῖδας καὶ φοβουμένη τὸν πατέρα ἔρριψεν εἰς τὸν Ἐρύμανθο

"Phylonome, the daughter of Nyktimos and Arkadia, was wont to hunt with Artemis; but Ares, in the guise of a shepherd, got her with child. She gave birth to twin children and, fearing her father, cast them into the [River] Erymanthos." (Pseudo-Plutarch, Greek and Roman Parallel Stories, 36)

οἳ δ᾽ Ἀσπληδόνα ναῖον ἰδ᾽ Ὀρχομενὸν Μινύειον, τῶν ἦρχ᾽ Ἀσκάλαφος καὶ Ἰάλμενος υἷες Ἄρηος οὓς τέκεν Ἀστυόχη δόμῳ Ἄκτορος Ἀζεΐδαο, παρθένος αἰδοίη ὑπερώϊον εἰσαναβᾶσα Ἄρηϊ κρατερῷ: ὃ δέ οἱ παρελέξατο λάθρῃ: τοῖς δὲ τριήκοντα γλαφυραὶ νέες ἐστιχόωντο.

"And they that dwelt in Aspledon and Orchomenus of the Minyae were led by Ascalaphus and Ialmenus, sons of Ares, whom, in the palace of Actor, son of Azeus, Astyoche, the honoured maiden, conceived of mighty Ares, when she had entered into her upper chamber; for he lay with her in secret" (Homer, Iliad 2. 512 ff)

In neither of these cases is a verb explicitly denoting rape used, though it is heavily implied by the context. The focus of the action is on the conception of sons, the nature of the interaction is secondary.

Other examples are found among the daughters of the river Asopos, who where (and here there's no confusion) ravished and kidnapped by different gods to different parts of the greek world, where they found local lines through children borne to their abductors and serve as local eponyms. Surviving fragments from Corinna of Tanagra tell:

"Asopos went to his haunts . . from you halls . . into woe . . Of these [nine] daughters Zeus, giver of good things, took his [Asopos'] child Aigina . . from her father's [house] . . while Korkyra and Salamis and lovely Euboia were stolen by father Poseidon, and Leto's son is in possession of Sinope and Thespia . . [and Tanagra was seized by Hermes] . . But to Asopos no one was able to make the matter clear, until . . [the seer Akraiphen reveals to him] 'And of your daughters father Zeus, king of all, has three; and Poseidon, ruler of the sea, married three; and Phoibos [Apollon] is master of the beds of two of them, and of one Hermes, good son of Maia. For so did the pair Eros and the Kypris persuade them, that they should go in secret to your house and take your nine daughters." - heavily fragmented papyrus. Corinna, Fragment 654

"For your [Tanagra's] sake Hermes boxed against Ares." Corinna, Fragment 666

It seems that, similarly to the myths of Beroe or Marpessa, the abducted maiden is fought over by two competing "suitors", and though we can infer that the outcome of the story is that Hermes gets to keep Tanagra, apparently by beating Ares at boxing, we don't actually know what happened or how it happened. In any case, Ares does mate with another daughter of Asopos, Harpina, who bears him Oinomaos according to some versions (Paus. 5.22.6) (Stephanus of Byzantium, Ethnica, A125.3) (Diodorus Siculus, Library 4. 73. 1). There is little reason to suppose this encounter wasn't pictured as an abduction like the rest of her sisters.

The blatant statement that each of his affairs was envisioned as consensual is simply not true.

3. He was worshipped under the epithet Gynaicothoinas "feasted by women"

This was a local cult that existed in Tegea, the following reason is given:

There is also an image of Ares in the marketplace of Tegea. Carved in relief on a slab it is called Gynaecothoenas. At the time of the Laconian war, when Charillus king of Lacedaemon made the first invasion, the women armed themselves and lay in ambush under the hill they call today Phylactris. When the armies met and the men on either side were performing many remarkable exploits, the women, they say, came on the scene and put the Lacedaemonians to flight. Marpessa, surnamed Choera, surpassed, they say, the other women in daring, while Charillus himself was one of the Spartan prisoners. The story goes on to say that he was set free without ransom, swore to the Tegeans that the Lacedaemonians would never again attack Tegea, and then broke his oath; that the women offered to Ares a sacrifice of victory on their own account without the men, and gave to the men no share in the meat of the victim. For this reason Ares got his surname. (Paus. 8.48.4-5)

As emphasised by Georgoudi in To Act, Not Submit: Women’s Attitudes in Situations of War in Ancient Greece (part of the highly recommendable collection of essays Women and War in Antiquity), "it is not necessary to see the operation of an invitation in the bestowal of the epithet Γυναικοθοίνας on Ares". The epithet is ambiguous, and can be translated both as "Host of the banquet of women" or "[He who is] invited to the banquet of women". In any case no act of divine intervention occurs, and the main reason for the women's act of devotion lies principally in recognising their decisive role in the routing of the Lakedaimonians. They invite Ares to the banquet, the men are excluded.

Also this a local epithet that isn't found anywhere else in Greece. As such it would be worth reminding that not every Ares is Gynaicothoinas, in the same way not every Zeus is Aithiopian, not every Demeter Erinys, or not every Artemis of Ephesos.

4. He is the patron god of the Amazons

He was considered progenitor of the Amazons because of their proverbial warlike nature and love of battle, the same reason he was associated with another barbarian tribe, the Thracians. In this capacity he was also appointed as a suitable father/ancestor for other violent and savage characters who generally function as antagonists (e.g. Kyknos, Diomedes of Thrace, Tereos of Thrace, Oinomaos, Agrios and Oreios, Phlegyas, Lykos etc.). Also he was by no means the only god connected with the Amazons (they were especially linked to Artemis, see Religious Cults Associated With the Amazons by Florence Mary Bennett, if only for the bibliography).

Similarly Poseidon was considered patron and ancestor of the Phaiakians mainly because of their mastery over the art of seafaring, and was curiously also credited in genealogies as father to monsters and other disreputable figures.

On another note I have found no sources that claim he taught his amazon daughters how to fight, as I've seen often mentioned (though I admit I'd love to be proven wrong on that point).

Finally, the last reason Ares is never portrayed as a protector of women is because of his divine assignation itself:

The uncountable references to his love of bloodshed and man-slaying don't just stop short of the battlefield, but continue on to the conclusion and intended purpose of most waged wars in antiquity: the sacking of the city. The title Sacker of Cities as an epithet of Ares (though it is by no means exclusive to him) is encountered numerous times and in different variations (eg. τειχεσιπλήτης or πτολίπορθος), and the meaning behind the epithet is plain. Though it is hard to summarise without being reductionist, the sacking of a city entails the plundering of all its goods, the slaughtering of its men, and the sistematic raping and enslavement of the surviving women (for the most famous depictions see The Iliad, The Trojan Women or The Women of Trachis, to name a small few of the literary references). There is little need to emphasise that war as concieved of in ancient greece, especifically the aspects of war Ares is most often associated with, directly entail sexual violence against women as one of the main concerns. The multiple references to Ares being an unloved or disliked deity are because of this, because war is horrifying (not because his daddy is a big old meany who hates him for no reason, Zeus makes very clear the motive for his contempt in the Iliad (5. 889-891): "Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar. To me you are most hateful of all gods who hold Olympos. Forever quarreling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.")

Ares was only the protector of women inasmuch as he could be averted or repelled:

"There is no clash of brazen shields but our fight is with the war god, a war god ringed with the cries of men, a savage god who burns us; grant that he turn in racing course backward out of our country’s bounds, to the great palace of Amphitrite or where the waves of the thracian sea deny the stranger safe anchorage. Whatsoever escapes the night at last the light of day revisits; so smite him, Father Zeus, beneath your thunderbolt, for you are the lord of the lightning, the lightning that carries fire. (Oedipus Tyrannos, 190-202)

~~~~~

All that being said, this is a post about Ares as attested and percieved in ancient sources, made especifically in response to condecending and self-victimising statements about how "uhmmm, actually, in greek mythology Ares was a super-feminist himbo who was worshipped as the protector of women and was hated by his family for no reason, you idiot". It is factually incorrect. HOWEVER, far be it from me to tell anyone how they have to interact with this deity. Be it your retellings, your headcannons or your own personal religious attachments and beliefs towards Ares, those are your own provinces and prerogatives, and not what was being discussed here at all (I personally love retellings where Ares and Aphrodite goof around, or art where he plays with his daughters, or headcannons that showcase his more noble sides, etc.)

~~~~~

I've seen that other people on tumblr have made similar posts, the ones I've seen were by @deathlessathanasia and @en-theos . I have no idea how to link their posts, but they're really good so go check them out on their pages!

[altruismaboveall]

Ares again?!?!? Promise this is the last one (maybe).

But hardcore agree here. The whole ‘Ares Gynaecothoenas’ story being used to call him ‘feminist’ always irked me - I don’t believe he was even directly involved!!!! Read Pausanias - Description of Greece.

Again, ITS FINE TO HAVE YOUR OWN INTERPRETATIONS AND CONNECTIONS TO GREEK GODS BUT DONT PASS THEM OFF AS FACT IF YOU HAVENT RESEARCHED PROPERLY!!!!!!

Wooo that was a lot of pent up energy there - sincerely your local classics student.

Feminist thoughts on Lord Ares:

First off, I’m gonna be open and honest: I’m personally not a devotee of Ares. So any of my thoughts on the matter are going to be from the perspective of someone that respects Him but doesn’t centre Him in their life.

Now that that’s been said, I’ve seen people online give Him the title “Protector of Women” and it just rubs me the wrong way. Namely, the way people use it as a reference to His epithet Ares Gynaecothoenas (trans: the god feasted by women).

Dr. Peter Meinick (a professor of classics) once described Ares as less a god or war and more a god of violence. Historically, Ares was one of the most hated gods of the pantheon. Often depicted as cruel and cowardly, running to Zeus when things got rough and Zeus even expressed revulsion to Him in the Iliad with the line, “Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar.”

Which makes a lot of sense. At least to me.

To me, the fear and the cruelty is integral to Him as a god. In fight or flight, He is the fight.

When you’re watching all the chaos and bloodshed and death closing in around you in an active war zone, you are afraid. You will lie, cheat, fight dirty, do anything it takes to make it out alive. Between life and death, there is no space for honour, only survival.

And it makes sense that He runs to the god of law and order.

The brutality in the streets is protected by our governments. Carefully hidden by people in power. Enacted by the system.

But that’s the point. He was so hated because nobody WANTS war. The soldier doesn’t WANT to have enemies. However, as vile as you believe violence to be, you can think of moments where it’s necessary. It’s the ‘right’ thing to do.

Unfortunately, women have suffered a lot of violence, including systemic. But I don’t believe Ares is inherently a misogynist. He is a complicated god because violence and war are complicated subjects.

Like the story that earned Him the epithet that’s being referenced. The god feasted by women.

Tegea was being invaded by Spartans. As the men prepared for battle, the women got together and decided among themselves that they weren’t going down without a fight.

Led by Marpessa, the women armed themselves and ambushed the invaders. And they won.

They even took the Spartan King, Charilaus, as their prisoner.

All without any divine interference.

The women held a feast to celebrate their victory, a feast that the men weren’t invited to. At this feast, they offered up a sacrifice to Lord Ares.

It was only by making space for violence that they could protect their city, their families, themselves. So it was only right to make space for the god of violence at the celebration of their victory.

And that’s why it rubs me the wrong way.

It’s like watching a woman give a masterclass in fencing and instead of acknowledging her skill with a sword, you say the sword was the ‘real’ protector.

He won’t fight our battles for us. He’s the one to pick us up, wipe the blood from our face, and tell us to keep fighting. He isn’t our protector. We are. He’s the one on the sidelines, yelling out banned MMA moves and how to do them for us. He’s a coach and we’re all scrappers.

[altruismaboveall]

Hi it’s me again. Really on an Ares kick eh?

Anyways onto to debunking!

Most of these are somewhat accurate- just very simplified which is fine but I have to ask for sources on them if you’re gonna say they’re things you’ve learnt especially on 6 - I’ve heard of ‘Ares Gynaecothoenas’ but - fun fact - he wasn’t actually involved! Pausanias mentions how the women of Tegea had their own agency!

Random stuff I learned about Ares out of boredom.

He isn't as tough as he makes himself out of be

He once got trapped in a jar for 13 months and Hermes had to save him

Speaking of Hermes, they're apparently Best friends!

He mourned some of his demigod children's deaths, like a good father should

He knew how to dance and danced at one of his daughters weddings

He protected women and children from bad people

When he wasn't not on the battlefield he was actually a pretty chill and nice guy

Saved one of his daughters from a rapist

He was really smitten for Aphrodite, completely head over heals

Athena almost threw a boulder at him

[altruismaboveall]

Hi! Current classics student here and I just wanted to warn everyone that this isn’t 100% accurate!!!

Apollonius of Rhodes (the correct spelling lol) never mentioned most of what the article you provided included (the life before building the temple) and I cannot for the life of me find anything on this. If you have a better source please include it otherwise please stop spreading false information/misinformation. If it’s not on Theoi it’s probably not credible (this coming from a classics student trying to clean Tumblr up a bit).

That being said I’m not faulting you for believing it but remember guys, a dose of scepticism with keep misinformation at bay!!!!! If you’re unsure don’t post or at least stipulate it clearly!!

Do you know where the Otrera myth originated? I've been searching for her backstory, but I can't find any actual ancient Greek story sources recounting it. She's cool either way, but it would be good to have a solid source

For the Otrera myth there is no information on theoi.com(the source I trust the most) but I found some on Wikipedia, at the reference section. Also, you can check the site Greek Boston. I assure you that they are reliable, and both sites use the same sources, mainly from Appolonius of Rhoades. I have linked the site below.

[altruismaboveall]

I feel you so deeply - I have the urge to just lay out all my knowledge right here and now so hopefully someone can finally get informed. Totally get the bit about the modern media though - no Greeks gods were explicitly evil.

was Ares ever considered a defender of women, i know compared to his dad that Ares is more consentual with his partners and has rizz compared to his old man shapeshifting to sneak up on people. Asking cause theres a bit in Blood of Zeus where Ares is one of Persephone's suitors (planned by Demeter) and she doesnt want him as Hades steps in when Ares starts getting physical.

No, @theoihalioistuff made a whole post about that. The only times he’s ever defended or helped women is bc their either his daughters or he’s attracted to them. Plus he has shapeshifted to get with women tho not as often as his father.

Also having Demeter trying to set up Persephone with Ares when Demeter was the one to reject him is certainly… a choice.

[altruismaboveall]

ARES DEBUNKED

I’ve scrolled down probably ten dozen posts on Greek mythology with such misinformed facts that I kind of want to die…. My classics professors would probably have been eviscerated by how some of these questionable takes are being presented as fact.

IT’S FINE TO HAVE YOUR OWN INTERPRETATIONS OF THE MYTHS BUT DON’T STATE THEM AS FACT WITHOUT EVIDENCE/SOURCES ESPECIALLY WITH THE MORE HISTORICAL STUFF.

And don’t link like a website with ten thousand ads which also has no citations as your source cmon Tumblr we’re better then that lmao

To debunk of some them now:

No, Ares wasn’t worshipped or known as the ‘protector of women’. He does have a better reputation with them than others and you’re free to interpret those myths as supporting the idea but DON’T PRESENT THEM AS FACT BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE. I will say that he’s a better dad than most of the pantheon.

Also the whole ‘Ares Gynaecothoenas’ being proof of his ‘feminism’ is gonna be the end of me. Yes we have Pausanias’ account of this BUT HE NEVER MENTIONS THAT ARES DIRECTLY HELPED THE WOMEN FIGHT. THEY DID THAT THEMSELVES. WE COULD INFER THEY PRAYED TO HIM THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS AFTER BUT AGAIN HE DID NOT DIRECTLY HELP. always kinda funny when people inadvertently make an already fairly ‘feminist’ story less so by stating that a male god was the reason behind their success lol.

Also would suggest reading the Wikipedia articles for the myths people use to prop him up as the chivalrous protector of women - not a good source itself but they link all the primary sources way better then most Tumblr users will ever. For example, the ‘Ares got abducted while saving his mother and sister and was repaid when Artemis saved him’ thing is quite a distorted take on the story. Yes the giants did want to get to Hera and Artemis but some versions of the myths have Apollo actually kill them. Ares does get abducted in at least one version of the myth but no myth actually states Artemis went with Hermes to save Ares (misconception from OSP I believe but even their wikia explicitly states that Red is wrong here).

Did Ares rape/assault women? Ok now this one’s very interesting because even my classmates don’t agree on a single answer. The general consensus seems to be that he did EXPLICITLY rape/assault but some of the wording regarding Astyoche and Phylonome is kinda vague. I haven’t read the original text yet (my Ancient Greek is not amazing) but all translations use ‘seduce’ and I guess if you consider Leda and Zeus to be rape then Phylonome would be dubious at best.

Now was Ares was the patron of Sparta? I’ve not got enough knowledge on the subject to feel comfortable enough explaining to I’ll link a blog I think does a better job @the-good-spartan

Is Ares a pathetic loser? Now this one’s up to your interpretation. Personally I see him as a victim of the Worf effect - sometimes cool, other times not so much (Iliad and Diomedes… I know Athena was helping him but point still stands - he’s as strong as the writer/storyteller wants him to be). Still a big fan of his dynamic with Athena - so fun seeing the duality of war.

If anyone wants to add more be my guest (all I ask is for a source to be included hehe)

[altruismaboveall]

New series idea: Epic Misconceptions!!

Since my post on Penelope and Sparta I’ve decided to make a series dedicated to clearing up misinformation/ misconceptions.

TO CLARIFY: I’m a Classics student but I’m not all knowing! I may make mistakes and, if I do, please feel free to correct me (just cite a source its all I ask). If there’s a question I can’t answer well I’ll consult with my professors and fellow students - if none of us have answers good enough I will tell you guys that!

This is also not an attack in any way towards the fans who just want to have fun! Be free to have headcanons, just don’t state them as fact in a non-joking way (this fandom has a younger demographic that won’t know about citing sources!)

I’ll also try to include as many resources including more academic sources (maybe some papers if people want) for the people who are interested in educating themselves further.

If anyone else wants to help me run this series please message me! It’s always good to have different perspectives when it comes to a topic as nuanced as this!

And finally, any suggestions for my next topic?

[altruismaboveall]

You mentioned Penelope not being from the more warlike Sparta that 300 has sort of fixed into the pop culture limelight, and that you were a classics student - do you have any textbooks or translations or any papers that you thought were insightful or good to read to learn more? I've looked on wikipedia, but there's so many options for sources that its hard to tell whats a decent source or not. Did you have any that you liked or would recommend?

Hmmm. I’ll have to rummage through my papers for that but as a starting point I’d recommend Plutarch’s ‘On Sparta’ for a more classical source on Sparta though bear in mind he’s writing about a good few centuries after Sparta really starts becoming a military power. It gives insight into how Spartan society truly functioned - both for better or for worse. It’s genuinely a good starting point and something my professors have recommended.

I haven’t read it yet but my classmates and professors have all enjoyed ‘The Bronze Lie’ by Myke Cole. I believe it’s a deconstruction and demystifying of Sparta which you may like considering how it’s fairly relevant here (Epic fans glorifying Sparta).

[altruismaboveall]

Everyone take notes here!!!! Penelope being Spartan doesn’t mean what everyone thinks it means!!

Can we get something straight here about Penelope and this whole “Spartan” thing?

Sure, we all know Penelope was from Sparta (well, technically), and we’ve all seen enough 300-inspired pop culture nonsense to think that every Spartan woman must be some spear-wielding, leather-clad, muscle-bound badass. So let’s clear that up once and for all: Penelope was absolutely not that type of Spartan. In fact, that vision of Spartan women is more of a modern fantasy than an actual reflection of Spartan society, and Penelope herself would probably laugh in your face if you tried to pin her down to that archetype.

First off, let’s talk about what it actually meant to be Spartan. Yes, Spartan women had a reputation for being strong, but we need to understand that strength wasn’t defined by throwing a spear or taking down enemies with a shield. Spartan women were celebrated for their physical health and were tasked with producing strong offspring to build the next generation of warriors. They were also responsible for the running of the household when their husbands were off fighting in wars, which meant managing estates, controlling property, and overseeing the everyday operations of Spartan life. So, while Spartan women were not helpless, they weren’t exactly wandering around with weapons, challenging every person who crossed them, either. Penelope’s version of Spartan strength was a little more intellectual, shall we say. For twenty years, while Odysseus was “getting lost” (as one does), Penelope faced down a horde of suitors who were camped out in her house, constantly pressuring her to choose a new husband. Did she pull out a spear and kill them all? No. That’s not what spartan women did. Did she start a war? Absolutely not. Instead, she employed the ultimate weapon: patience. She weaved and un-wove a shroud for years as a stalling tactic, keeping the suitors at bay. Sure, there’s no sword involved, but let’s be real: that takes more cunning than any weapon ever could. Spartan women are not known for fighting, but for surviving.

Penelope’s Spartan roots may have given her the ability to endure, to manage her household, and to outsmart the suitors who had overrun Ithaca, but we’re missing the point if we think that means she was out there battling it out like a heroine from some action flick. Her version of strength was mental, not physical. Instead of wielding a spear, Penelope wielded her intellect, her wit, and her ability to play the long game. If you’re expecting Penelope to start slaying suitors left and right, or charging into battle with a sword in hand, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

Pop culture would love to turn Penelope into a spear-wielding warrior queen, but the actual historical context is far more subtle and far more impressive. She was Spartan in the most meaningful sense of the word: resilient, strategic, and damn clever. Penelope did not need muscles at all. She had the power of endurance — something a spear can’t give you.

[altruismaboveall]

Excellent breakdown of her character. I studied the Odyssey at university and I can say that Penelope’s intellect and cunning was her true strength as well as her loyalty.

Plus the Sparta Penelope is meant to be from is not the same one everyone knows - it is an earlier and far less aggressive one. Pretty much the same for all intents and purposes as the other city states at the time.

Can we get something straight here about Penelope and this whole “Spartan” thing?

Sure, we all know Penelope was from Sparta (well, technically), and we’ve all seen enough 300-inspired pop culture nonsense to think that every Spartan woman must be some spear-wielding, leather-clad, muscle-bound badass. So let’s clear that up once and for all: Penelope was absolutely not that type of Spartan. In fact, that vision of Spartan women is more of a modern fantasy than an actual reflection of Spartan society, and Penelope herself would probably laugh in your face if you tried to pin her down to that archetype.

First off, let’s talk about what it actually meant to be Spartan. Yes, Spartan women had a reputation for being strong, but we need to understand that strength wasn’t defined by throwing a spear or taking down enemies with a shield. Spartan women were celebrated for their physical health and were tasked with producing strong offspring to build the next generation of warriors. They were also responsible for the running of the household when their husbands were off fighting in wars, which meant managing estates, controlling property, and overseeing the everyday operations of Spartan life. So, while Spartan women were not helpless, they weren’t exactly wandering around with weapons, challenging every person who crossed them, either. Penelope’s version of Spartan strength was a little more intellectual, shall we say. For twenty years, while Odysseus was “getting lost” (as one does), Penelope faced down a horde of suitors who were camped out in her house, constantly pressuring her to choose a new husband. Did she pull out a spear and kill them all? No. That’s not what spartan women did. Did she start a war? Absolutely not. Instead, she employed the ultimate weapon: patience. She weaved and un-wove a shroud for years as a stalling tactic, keeping the suitors at bay. Sure, there’s no sword involved, but let’s be real: that takes more cunning than any weapon ever could. Spartan women are not known for fighting, but for surviving.

Penelope’s Spartan roots may have given her the ability to endure, to manage her household, and to outsmart the suitors who had overrun Ithaca, but we’re missing the point if we think that means she was out there battling it out like a heroine from some action flick. Her version of strength was mental, not physical. Instead of wielding a spear, Penelope wielded her intellect, her wit, and her ability to play the long game. If you’re expecting Penelope to start slaying suitors left and right, or charging into battle with a sword in hand, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

Pop culture would love to turn Penelope into a spear-wielding warrior queen, but the actual historical context is far more subtle and far more impressive. She was Spartan in the most meaningful sense of the word: resilient, strategic, and damn clever. Penelope did not need muscles at all. She had the power of endurance — something a spear can’t give you.

[altruismaboveall]

Wanted to clear something up:

Penelope is NOT from the war-like Sparta we all know. She’s from an earlier version that was similar to the other city states at the time. It’s an understandable mistake to make but I’ve seen some people get mad that Jorge didn’t write Penelope as more aggressive and independent.

Homer wrote down the Odyssey at around 8/7th BCE and it is set even earlier around the Mycenaean period in Sparta while the militaristic Sparta (Classical) was established later at around when Homer wrote it but it wasn’t the powerhouse it would later become. There’s multiple accounts of this and Wikipedia, as much as it pains me to say, is an ok starting point if you want to delve in deeper.

We could assume that Penelope was raised in a more independent manner than other women at the time but she was definitely not trained to fight and she could definitely not take on all 108 suitors.

It’s fine to have headcannons and all and the idea is very interesting but please don’t spread misinformation, as a Classics student it hurts my heart and brain to see this from such a passionate fandom.