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Look at these koi

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alright I’m only gonna say this one time because i’m tired of seeing the discourse

I’m exhausted by the Iroh hate.

Iroh is a man who commited atrocities and then by the death of his son realized the intense evil he was committing and did everything in his power and in his life after that point to counteract his evil deed.

He joined the White lotus and worked to save anymore people from loosing their lives he helped the son of an evil genocidal dictator overthrow him.

Iroh is NOT comparable to real life figures who have commited atrocities and then put on an innocent face and was good in every other aspect.

the difference is Iroh WORKED to counteract what he had done.

We are not meant to simply forgive Iroh because he makes Tea and is nice.

We like Iroh because he is someone who understood the deep evil of his ways and lives his life in service of others he doesn’t expect forgiveness. Or sympathy. But he works for good ANYWAY

ATLA doesn’t want you to forgive the villains or the genocidal dictators.

ATLA shows you the complex existence and web of humanity and goes

“we are all products of war and it’s not what we say, It’s what we do that matters.”

Everyone is capable of Evil but people are also capable of change and working for it.

get that through your skull

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ATLA Book 3 is often criticized for its pacing, filler, and unresolved plot threads. Its quality was affected by the 2007 writer's strike, so I wonder how different it would have turned out if that had never happened.

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Why Aang’s lines sound preachy in The Southern Raiders

I’ve often heard KA’s make the argument that Aang pushing forgiveness as an alternative to Katara’s apparent desire for retribution, is one stemming from a deeper place of concern for Katara’s wellbeing. I’ve heard many a variation of the following argument:

“Katara is a kind soul who would have been wracked with guilt if she actually killed Yon Rha, and Aang who knew her well, was just trying to protect his friend from a lifetime of anguish and regret. Ultimately, it was Aang who knew what Katara needed.”

Keep reading

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I'm also convinced Sokka was afraid that Katara might get hurt or die, and that if she doesn't, she might get mentally scarred from directly going and killing someone.

I think it's why he'd side with Aang, but he wouldn't stay silent about his reasons like he did in canon and only prop up Aang's reason.

Because Sokka would 100% go on the vengeance quest himself, except he shows time and time again he chooses to not get involved in actions he deems unneeded and overly dangerous/risky. He stopped Zuko from entering and breaking up that fight in the prison, he tried to stop Katara in the FN village from interfering, telling her to just ignore it and stick to their main mission. He disliked her plans to help Earthbenders get free from the prison rig and wanted to leave without helping them when her initial idea failed. He tried to chase Aang away from their SWT village, he tried to dissuade others from chasing Azula in DotBS and focus on their main target, but he lost his temper when he's directly tested with something he cares deeply about. Sokka is hypocritical in this (rescuing Hakoda from prison, going to the Library maybe), but it's consistent with his characterization.

I think it would have been in character that later that night he'd sneak out and ask Katara and Zuko to let him come with them too, if Katara was not gonna let this go. Just like how he helped her with the fishing village, the earthbender prison rig, etc. But maybe Katara was too angry about how reluctant Sokka behaved earlier that she'd refuse to let him accompany them, feeling he might try to interfere again (and thus prevent her from getting proper closure).

i’ve read a post complaining about how people’s media literacy is ruined for viewing media through a shipping lens, but in the tags they mention anti zutara stans (a surprise), and ‘saying that sokka is ooc in southern raiders like SHUT UP’.

what do you think makes sokka ooc in the southern raiders as compared to the rest of the show? how do you think him being in character could have changed the episode?

Viewing media through a shipping lens is engaging in media analysis, so as a general statement, it doesn't make sense to say that's ruining media literacy. Poor media literacy can also be an inability to engage with a text beyond a surface value of what the text presents, because not only are you not engaging critically, you also miss a lot of what creators might be intending below the surface. A lot of shipping culture involves picking up on subtext.

I actually don't think Sokka is entirely ooc in the Southern Raiders. I think it's ooc for him to agree with Aang about forgiving his mom's murderer, and the show actually acknowledges that it's ooc by having him say that usually Aang's preachiness is annoying.

So the question then becomes, what WOULD make Sokka behave in a way that he admits is counter to his usual characterization? I will say again, good writers can make almost anything in character. Going by Sokka's other characterizations, I think what changed is that Sokka is afraid. Of what might happen to Katara if she goes after their mom's murderer, of what she might do and how that might affect her, of revisiting those memories he's tried to forget, of thinking about how much he's relied on Katara to fill the void left by his mother's absence, and how that's hurt her.

The annoying thing is that the show doesn't frame things this way or allow Sokka and Katara to have a resolution about it. Which makes it seem like Sokka's line wasn't written as an interesting bit of characterization, but just to make Aang seem right. That's what makes it feel ooc.

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Heartsong (AO3)

(...)“No? What about the First Hunt?”

Sokka sat up straight, but Katara’s frown deepened. “You told that one this morning!”

“She could tell it again!” Sokka said.

Gran Gran chuckled. “No, we’ll save it for another day. I know!” She smiled at Katara. “How about the First Soulmates?” (...)

--- fic project for the @zkbigbang ♥ ♪ make sure to check out the other artist for this story; @drachenfalter

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So yeah, some ships are canon while others are not. Some plot lines are canon, many others (which are not as easy to pinpoint as ships are) are not either! Canonicity refers to the final choice of people who have the final say. It doesn't affect how good the writing itself is.

Canon can be consistent, or it can contradict itself. This is especially more likely to happen when multiple people with different visions are working on a story.

When canon is being rewritten, it's not automatic sacriledge or degrading, it can be (we've all seen examples of this) but it's not absolute. "Canon rewrites" happen even while canon isn't yet locked in, when writers rework and adjust their own writing, this is obvious.

Likewise adaptations are rewrites. Regardless of whether they're done skillfully or not, working within an already existing narrative as a writer exists AS A JOB. It's not just fanfiction that does this.

Fanfiction has a bad reputation because it often has a narrow topic or theme as fans aren't usually interested in doing an actual job level and bredth of writing, it has a much higher case of new and beginning writers, you're much more likely to run into their writing compared to original published work because it's 1) hard for new people to break in with original stuff 2) it's hard for readers to randomly stumble upon a new small franchise they've never heard of before.

Fanfiction isn't automatically "bad" because of its category. It can be badly written, amateur, too narrow, and not to one's taste but these are all seperate problems.

With all of this said, zutara has good canon writing and no resolution. It's not a fever dream and its building blocks have been proven by many meta posts. A lot of watchers are able to pick up on these, and are not "delusional fans of shallow aesthetics". These inadequate drags just work against anti-zutara fans because they simply do not stick to what exists in canon writing. "Shallow aesthetics" is not what the canon material itself says.

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I just think some of y'all are waaay too comfortable judging Ursa over something she had no control over. Yes, I hate the plot point of Ursa giving up her memories, too, but I hate it because it's unnecessary, and actually stems from the same place of feeling like a woman has to have some justification for making the choice to continue with her life instead of, idk, endlessly suffering. Even if she hadn't had her memories erased, there was absolutely nothing she could have done for her children. She was literally forced out of their lives forever, and the only reason it wasn't forever is because Aang defeated the firelord.

Like, we see in the series that most people stopped believing in an end to the war after the Avatar disappeared 100 years ago. We see what hopeless people become. Ursa had no hope that her suffering would ever end, or the suffering of her children, and there was absolutely nothing she could do about it. People aren't angry at her because they think she could have saved Zuko and Azula, because she could not have. What they mostly seem angry about is that she had a happy life instead of one full of endless suffering and fear. As happy as she could be given the circumstances, although we also see in the scenes where she has her memories that she didn't want to forget her children, and regretted that she could not be there for them.

Idk, I just think it's odd that y'all can forgive a redeemed villain but not a mother for being forced into an impossible situation which she already blames herself for.

And Katara...Katara is a character who represents hope. You really think she would look at a woman who has no hope and condemn her for it? You really think Katara would condemn the actions of a woman who was forced to leave her home and family because it was the only escape from a man trying to control her, when her own grandmother did the same?

And again, this is not about her children, because there was nothing she could have done for them after she was banished from the country. What the hatred seems to primarily be about is that she continued to live her life and was her own person. Which is something that people do every day, despite being forced into horrible circumstances. It's something Ursa would have had to do even if she hadn't forgotten her children, and the fandom would have likely hated her even more for it. The misogyny directed at mothers and wives is primarily the reason the amnesia plotline exists, because y'all refuse to understand how trauma works, and Ursa still gets blamed even when writers try to come up with magical reasons to try to explain that trauma.

Ursa also doesn't get to be judged as a human being. Instead, the main criticism I hear is that she's "a bad mother." For something she did at a point in her life where it was no longer even possible for her to be a mother to her children, no matter what choice she made.

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So the scarring discourse is still going.

No, characters keeping scars does not automatically equate to that being torture porn. In this context, fans clearly intend it in a way that says "even if you end up with physical marks, it doesn't diminish you". Or is Aang getting scarred torture porn too? Or do you think things like Mortal Engines movie shrinking the female lead's facial damage to a minimum "spared her of physical trauma"? No, it was afraid of depicting something deemed "ugly" and it's a huge disservice to real people who look like she was described in the book.

The topic was not handled super well in ATLA. Katara's wounds got healed leaving no trace on her, on her psyche nor on how she views Aang which is not just unrealistic, but you can literally feel in the show Katara having to go "no Aang it's ok, I'm fine, you don't have to beat yourself up over it, I'm healed, let it go Aang, it's not your fault," it is too much. It would have been much stronger had the burns left some mark, even a tiny one, because then Aang's reluctance to practice firebending would have made more sense and all characters would have gotten a more solid demonstration that the Avatar can be dangerous too. It would have been a wakeup call to Katara that Aang isn't a completely harmless kid she can always shield and protect. That's character development! This would have been a more powerful moment in the progression of their relationship, especially after they sort it out and Aang learns safe firebending later on, because they'd have a more real problem to overcome rather than just Aang's guilt.

Again, show didn't frame things too cleverly - there's no heightened moment of perhaps Katara being extremely happy that she discovered a part of her lost Southern waterbending heritage (just remember her behaviour with Hama, there's none of that here). The show just removes her wounds, she's confused about the ability, and this leads to Jeong Jeong making a point about how fire is wild and destructive. The whole segment ends with removing the source of the problem (wounds) and is about how evil fire is. Aang ends up being traumatized anyway, he isn't less traumatized because Katara's wounds didn't scar.

The point is - Katara gets nothing character-building out of this event, even though it made her cry and cradle her arms for several minutes on screen. Because of this her burns could be considered torture-porn (slightly). Her discovering healing abilities is not a reward she got exclusively because she suffered the burns, she could have discovered it by accidentally hurting herself, or healing someone else. Imagine if Aang hurt himself by being reckless and Katara discovering she could heal him? What she should have gotten out of specifically being burned by Aang, is a changed view of him. I don't mean her viewing him negatively, but taking a step back and both learning they should be more careful. Who said zutara stans want Katara getting scarred by Aang in order to make Aang a villain in this? He literally cannot be a villain here, he made a big mistake by being careless. It's got nothing to do with zutara. It's not helpful to misinterpret some storytelling tools that have nothing to do with shipping, just to prevent them from creating some later story hooks which could potentially be used in shipping a NOTP. Heck, Katara getting scarred could even be used (with skilled writing) in shipping her with Aang - like zutara fans use Katara being angry at Zuko and expecting him to demonstrate that he wouldn't betray or hurt them again.

And if you have a distaste for two happy friendly characters hurting each other on accident, that's fine, but well I have a scar on my arm from my brother's scratch that happened on accident. These things happen and stories shouldn't be scared of portraying it, especially if later on they show how to make ammends and overcome the problem. I'm not saying "Katara should definitely have kept her scars!!!" I am showing narrative weak points and suggestions how things could have been done differently, what benefits it could have had character-wise and what that might have changed.

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this scene happened in my head so it's real

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Show writing: canonically makes two characters be similar and good at working together and resolving problems

Antis: "One of them is terrible, you lack eyes and media literacy!"

someone should study these people's brains

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Zuko and his protectiveness over Katara backfired on the show

I think we're all quite aware of the fact that Zuko is canonically very protective over Katara

Exhibit A

When he saves Katara from falling rubble in the Western air temple.

Exhibit B

When he protects Katara from flames in that same episode when she is about to blood bend that fire nation soldier.

Exhibit C

The famous Agni Kai where he take lightning for Katara

Now why are these so significant? I think these are big gestures are to show Zuko's efforts to make amends after what he did to Katara. It could be argued these are very extreme ways of making it up to her because these came at the cost of his life. But this also goes to show his character development, as he is willing to protect Katara from danger. For me, one of the reasons why I ship them is because of his protectiveness. It's refreshing to see a character that has always been there to help and to be a support system to others be protected by someone else. I think it can be very fulfilling as a viewer. This effort that was made to write their relationship was so genuine, and it felt so heartfelt as the viewer, that it just made their dynamic one of the strongest in the show. Whether that be romantically or just platonically, their dynamic is probably one of the best in my opinion.

Now, with all that his protectiveness towards Katara immediately evaporate after the last Agni Kai which was pretty shocking, as they didn't get time to be able to talk about what happened. I feel like it removes a piece of genuineness from the show that the characters care for each other. And of course I know a reason why this could have happened is because, well, Kataang and Maiko exist. I think what made their dynamics so strong is because of their protectiveness for one another. Especially, Zuko's protectiveness over Katara. When it was removed in the comics, it felt like a bond had been destroyed because a big part of their dynamic was protecting each other and being there for each other, and having that level of communication. They were protecting each other through their communication and through their support for one another.

How I feel like it backfired on the show is that it created a bit of an emptiness in both of the characters. Especially when they interacted, it felt more distant in the comics, and it felt as if they were strangers. Zuko's writing, which leads to him being protective over her, is so poignant in their relationship that once it is removed it creates a hole in a way it makes his character feel more hollow in his relationship with Katara. It feels like an effort to create a divide and an erasure of their past and how significant his taking lightning for her was. A show that is built of meaningful character relationships took a piece of its own heart out and of its own show and stabbed it in front of all of us when it came to the erasure of Zutara. So they could push the canon ships. They were willing to remove that important element of character relationships for 2 poorly written couples.

I think it creates a level of ingenuity in this show. That is not shocking as many of Katara's other love interests met the same fate of ingenuity, whether that be Jet or Haru. Where she's never able to show her feelings about these people. Which I find quite strange seeing how the show aims to create depth and talk about feelings that actually provoke feelings in you. They don't actually go in-depth with what the leading lady's thoughts are about other people. For all the sake of keeping the focus on Kataang it costs the good writing for Katara to be able to feel complex emotions about the other male interests in her life. And it leads to a rough ending for a strong dynamic like Zuko and Katara that shows their desperation for Kataang at the cost of good writing especially for Katara.

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I don't think it's a valid argument to say people shouldn't create theories and analyses for what they ship, shipping isn't just about putting together characters you like.

Sure it can be that for many people, but in many cases it's about good and satisfying storytelling. And mocking people for writing metas is both annoying and forgetting the value of storytelling.

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Kataang shipper: Zutara would get far less hate if the shippers would stop to bash and mischaracterize every single atla character or canon ship to uplift Zuko/Zutara

(I'm getting so much mileage out of this one 😂💀)

Kataang shipper: Zuko's a colonizer who wanted Aang's corpse as a trophy

Kataang shipper: Zuko is racist who was pro genocide

Kataang shipper: Katara is ableist

Kataang shipper: Aang is always even tempererd, spewing lava at Katara for not wanting to talk about a kiss is just OOC and I don't consider it canon

Kataang shipper: Aang is a Tibetan Buddhist monk and any negative thing you say about him is racist!

I hope you guys stretched before you made that reach.

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All of this is really strong signal to me that the ship was not intended to become canon at all, all the way until the very last episodes. Just like it was said in the first story bible, Aang's crush was supposed to just be a flavour-side-plot that would make the audience laugh or feel endearing. Then it was supposed to fizzle out and not lead anywhere. Which is fine of a choice, especially in a show with target audience of children.

Any arguments pointing to events in book 1, book 2... they're all as thin as paper, it's more retroactively trying to push a foot to fit a shoe that isn't really meant for it. Yeah I get it, KA shippers have to resort to that... or they could rewrite canon and say "this is how I would have done it differently" which I think is a better option.

one of the most baffling thing about kataang to me is how the romantic interactions between aang and katara have little to no impact on their relationship. sokka learns that aang has a crush on katara in the fortuneteller, but we never see aang trying to get advice from sokka after he learns about it. aang and katara kiss in the cave of two lovers but we never see katara's perception of aang change at all. i'm not saying that romance should've had a larger role in the series, but that if bryke wanted us to root for kataang, they should've displayed a natural development of a platonic relationship becoming a romantic one. i've watched tv shows and movies and read books where romance is a subplot but the relationships are still believable, so "romance isn't an important aspect of atla" isn't a good excuse.

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We do actually see that tiny scar in several scenes! And I really like that because it's being dedicated to world consistency. The exit wound of the lightning on his foot.

But anyway you're right, it is basically true - reality should be bent in order to tell a satisfying story (if it stays consistent with the story's own rules in 99,9% of cases ig? For example the Lionturtle and Rock of Destiny both tell a dissatisfactory story and break the rules of the world -__-)

More stories especially those in visual medium should have scarred and disabled heroes. Too many times especially female characters aren't allowed to not be "aesthetically pleasing/perfect". Meanwhile half of Zuko's face is ruined and yet that doesn't dampen his popularity in the slightest. That shows us majority of audience will accept such a character being heroic - and yet his scar was drastically underplayed in the live action, to the point that the actor himself was disappointed. Same thing happened with Mortal Engines movie.

And what's sad is that Zuko really was just a villain when he was concieved as a character and his scar was nothing more than "a cool mark" that's meant to shock and repulse. I'm forever grateful the writers team gave him and Iroh the backstories and development they did

Which character significantly hurts whom depends on what the story is trying to say, so it's really interesting to me that the worst damage Zuko ever did to Katara was breaking her trust under Ba Sing Se (even though he didn't technically promise her anything, but it ended up feeling as him tricking her anyway) for which he spends significant narrative energy atoning to her, later. No physical strike or a burn or anything. The angry fire prince who constantly apparently causes collateral damage through arson. He broke her trust.

Zuko burning Toph happened because the writing wanted Aang to have a demonstration by his future firebending teacher that he understands it's easy to hurt someone with your power. I didn't get a feeling that it was very focused on affecting the relation between Toph and Zuko even though it could have, more than just Toph not wanting to admit that she got hurt by someone she was defending a day before without knowing him personally. With that said, real-life physically she probably wouldn't have gotten scarred... story-wise maybe, if the story wanted to focus way more on hers and Zuko's interaction. But yet again, if both Katara and Toph got scarred, narratively it would be - for Katara because Aang was being careless, but for Toph because Zuko was scared and defaulted to his automatic reaction. That's way less a thing to frown upon than being careless after several people warned you. Aang needed to learn a lesson, but Zuko needed to be in a safe environment.

For all that I do think Zuko being a sympathetic character who was meant for redemption almost at the same time he was given his scar and it was decided that his father gave it to him is a big step in deconstructing the "scarred villain" trope, Zuko is still a character who started out as a villain. When people talk about Katara not having burn scars or Toph not having burn scars, you know the real reason is that heroes don't typically get scars, villains do. So when I see people talking about how Katara shouldn't/doesn't have to have scars, in response to headcanons, I kinda have to think part of the reason is because we don't like the concept of a heroic character, and a female character who is meant to be the hero's love interest at that, having scars.

The fact that the Katara with scarred hands headcanon was invented largely by people who ship her with Zuko is pretty powerful on that front, presenting a heroic character having scars who is also female and a character seen as worthy of love not just in spite of the scars, but with them.

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I love your post <3 it hits the nail on the head for so many things. Interpreting canon logically (disregarding author intent aka Br'/ke's) leads to precisely your conclusion, that Katara accepted being a prize but was too stubborn and proud to cry or in her eyes whine about her situation, and Zuko "stayed in his lane" so rigorously out of respect for her choices AND because he was too afraid of ever crossing that boundary back into villainy and hurting someone, that he bowed out.

And it's a tragedy just like it was a tragedy for Oma and Shu, when they couldn't be together. Good relevant mention of Orpheus and Eurydice, I love that detail; when Katara runs out of the Cave of Two Lovers, she doesn't look back at Aang. But when she's leaving the area in the Crystal Catacombs she turns around to look back at Zuko and he looks back at her. I've seen a post on tumblr that says there is no way to game the system because if they do love each other, they will look back as there will always be a reason. I'm certain that Zutara absolutely exists but in the form of strong subtext, and it's not just the things that exist in explicit form that are the only correct ones.

It's so sad that their story ending in tragedy also matches the sad ending of Oma and Shu. I do hold this line of story development but also as "canon au" where I treat canon as a lesser side-timeline!

In terms of “canon-compliant” zutara, I think often about how Zuko’s development is both his redemption and his doom.

Because how come the obsessive go-getter of the show does not fight harder against fate (bryke’s annoying ass) to save his beloved from putting herself into a rewardless martyr-like situation in the form of a marriage that serves as repopulation program? (Which I always thought was ridiculous).

He learns bit by bit to acknowledge and make up for his mistakes. He respects Katara above all else. He fights fair. He does not guilt-trip her nor treat her like a reward. He loves her. He gave his life for her. He would not have survived had she not been the exceptional person she is. He supports her decisions no matter what. He listens to her.

So when she tells him about her ridiculously good and selfish intentions of pandering (once again) to a non-celibate Monk who wishes to have her mother his children for the sake of airbending and his supposed affection that was born out of the self-insert of narrators who give way too much importance to childhood crushes for one’s babysitter, he might argue but he can’t help but love her and respect her decision, both horrified by the cruelty of fate (aka bryke) and filled with admiration for the person she has always been.

If Orpheus loved Eurydice too much not to turn back when she tripped behind him, then Zuko loved Katara way too much not to validate and support her terribly selfless decisions. Because how dare him be selfish and want her for himself. And how dare him tell her what to do after years of war.

It is terribly tragic because on the other side, a part of her wishes he had fought harder.

A “villain” turned “hero” sometimes can mean the upholding of ideals made by two men who enjoy shaming young girls for their choice of love interest. Sometimes, the lack of a “villain” to whisk away the princess from the “hero’s” hands means said princess will remain unacknowledged and forgotten in a narrative that turns it into something of her own volition, a narrative that ignores everything a beloved female character represented for the people she was made to represent (by their own words, must I say). It leaves the realm of picking the love interest (which honestly could simply not ever happened in any form and would still be better than this) and enters the realm of once again giving a poor treatment to a female main character who quite literally Drives the story from its beginning.

And just like Orpheus and Eurydice are doomed by fate, Katara and Zuko are doomed by Bryke. And surprisingly, Katara gets the worse of it.