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@yuri-ronin

With what evidence? You have 0 proof that what Mukuro is doing is objectively incestous and not just Sister-Complex like Ima. Did Mukuro ever say she wants to fuck, marry or even kiss Junko? No. there's literally NOTHING.

I'm not pointing at one passage. Mukuro acting masochistic in order to "understand Junko's Despair" has been consistently been established MULTIPLE TIMES across each medias. DR0, IF, DR3, and UTDP.

Mukuro's masochism is not consistent either. In DR3, Mukuro smiles when being abused by Junko. But in DR0, she cries and BEGS Junko to stop abusing her. This contradiction along with confirmation of Mukuro's fake masochism makes it impossible to buy Mukuro's pleasure in DR3 as sexual gratification.

"All Danganronpa Media confirms Despaircest", huh? Lol. Give me 1 confirmation...JUST ONE. I'll wait. I've been searching for years, and I ironically find more evidence AGAINST it, rather than supporting it.

Well guess what? I trust a CANON book and an OFFICIALLY APPROVED book. over some random Despaircest fan's own fragile headcanon any day.

@yuri-ronin

Simple, I call it: "Faking your masochism in order to try to understand your sister's ideology about Despair". Which has been stated MULTIPLE times.

(In Danganronpa Zero, Mukuro outright admits Junko is an abusive sister, and the only reason why she's okay with this is because "She's the only one who understand Junko's Despair")

(In Danganronpa IF outright states that Mukuro wants Junko to abuse her, NOT from Masochistic pleasure. But to understand Junko's despair.)

Furthurmore, when Mukuro no longer faking her masochism, Junko tried to threaten to gangbang her and BDSM her afterwards. and Mukuro was NOT comfortable Furthur supporting that Mukuro never truly enjoyed her masochistic time with Junko.

Pay attention next time. Please.

"Kodaka isn't the only one who ever worked on Danganronpa Media" Okay, mam. And is Mukuro ever been incestous in any of those other medias? Is Mukuro incestous in Danganronpa IF? No... Is Mukuro incestous in UTDP?... No....Is Mukuro incestous in Danganronpa S?....No....Tough luck isn't it?

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@yuri-ronin

Simple, I call it: "Faking your masochism in order to try to understand your sister's ideology about Despair". Which has been stated MULTIPLE times.

(In Danganronpa Zero, Mukuro outright admits Junko is an abusive sister, and the only reason why she's okay with this is because "She's the only one who understand Junko's Despair")

(In Danganronpa IF outright states that Mukuro wants Junko to abuse her, NOT from Masochistic pleasure. But to understand Junko's despair.)

Furthurmore, when Mukuro no longer faking her masochism, Junko tried to threaten to gangbang her and BDSM her afterwards. and Mukuro was NOT comfortable Furthur supporting that Mukuro never truly enjoyed her masochistic time with Junko.

Pay attention next time. Please.

"Kodaka isn't the only one who ever worked on Danganronpa Media" Okay, mam. And is Mukuro ever been incestous in any of those other medias? Is Mukuro incestous in Danganronpa IF? No... Is Mukuro incestous in UTDP?... No....Is Mukuro incestous in Danganronpa S?....No....Tough luck isn't it?

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So Kodaka confirms that Ima Tsukumo is a PLATONIC Hardcore Siscon...

According to Kodaka on Weibo, Ima Tsukumo, the Hardcore Siscon who blushes, sweats and drools like a fountain over his obsessive love for his sister was not caused by romantic or sexual feelings.

If Kodaka doesn't qualify Ima Tsukumo as incestous for acting like this. Then theres literally no excuse for Mukuro either here. Since Mukuro's Sister-Complex simply pales in comparison and no where near exaggerated as Ima.

Mukuro has very little incestous arguements to begin with. Mukuro's is confirmed to never had been a masochist, Makoto is Mukuro's canon crush, and Mukuro doesn't even agree with Junko's concept of romance. The only reason people say she is incestous is because they focus on HOW she behaves, but never WHY she behaves like this. If you simply read the Danganronpa 0 scene and look past Mukuro's behaviour. You'll understand that Mukuro is actually being ecstatic from Understanding Junko's Despair (Because Mukuro believe being the only one who understand Junko's despair makes her important). And it's been emphasised through out the series. Her ecstasy is from being validated. Not from sexual gratification.

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@shsl-hubris-guy blocked me, lmao. Here's his last respond to me:

1: Siscon historically stems from incestous attraction, but not EXLUSIVELY. Sister Complex can be sexual OR platonic, having inc#stous origin doesn't change that fact. Crane is too fixated on it's origin, rather than it's current definition. 2: I never said "inc#st is normal because there's a lot of it". So I don't even know where he got that from.

3: @shsl-hubris-guy completely misses the context. See: He claims that Mukuro "obviously" displayed horny behaviour in DR0. But if it was so "obvious" as he claimed, then how come it wasn't obvious for Ryogo Narita? (Narita is very familiar with writing inc#st himself). Narita wrote Mukuro as a Siscon in IF too. But never made her siscon inc#stous. This is becuase he KNOWS Mukuro's Siscon is platonic.

Also none of those are my "only arguements". As Crane ignores my other points:

Rantaro admits having a Sister-Complex

Korekiyo being implied to be the only inc#stous character

Mukuro being ecstatic from Junko's despair, and not her siscon

DR3's love chart shows Mukuro not heart-coded with Junko.

Kodaka confirms that Ima neither has romantic or sexual feelings.

Several sources I provided that describes Siscon that he asked for.

I think the difference between me and @shsl-hubris-guy. Is that since Crane is a Western fan, he thinks: "Siscons are inc#st until proven platonic."

But for us, fans in the East, we believe in "Siscons are platonic, until proven inc#stous". (Hence why both Kodaka and Narita always have to confirm writing inc#st characters like Korekiyo and Namie.) I do think Crane would've been more reasonable if he simply wasn't so squimish about the topic. Anyway, feel free to send stuff he says again. I'm down to debunk it.

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Okay, I finally found the original untranslated source of the first one, and the person who asked this, specifially used the word [情侣]

And 情侣 (which translates to Lovers or couple): Is used to describe Romantic OR SEXUAL relationship.

Likewise, the second person clearly asked if Ima and Kako only has brother and sisterly love. And Kodaka reasure that it is by saying "There's no [恋爱] feelings".

And according to our very dictionary: [恋爱] refers to romantic love OR AMATIVENESS.

(Amativeness: The arousal of feelings of sexual desire)

So yeah, Kodaka effectivelly confirmed that Ima Tsukumo, despite his weird behavior, neither has or will ever have romantic or sexual feelings towards his sister.

Kodaka recently confirmed that Ima Tsukumo is a platonic siscon and will NEVER cross the line of incest: https://imgur.com/a/bPYm8Pa

Will you still stubbornly insist that Mukuro Ikusaba is incestous, now that we know that a bigger Siscon like Ima: who ecstatically blushes, sweats and drools over their sister, doesn't even prove or qualify them to be incestous? Your "Mukuro's ecstasy and ragged breathing" arguements doesn't hold much ground anymore...

I don't think you know what the difference between sexual attraction and romantic love is. That's a pretty amatomormative viewpoint to have.

Is this why people get so mixed up over my talking about incest in Kodaka's works? I never said it was romance. Siscon is sexual, not romantic.

"Love feelings" and being a couple are romantic. Sexual attraction is sexual. And while there's often overlap between those two things for a lot of people, they are not the same thing, and one can exist without the other. Stop using an amatomormative argument to disprove what was, quite literally, presented as fact in the game's promotional material.

Do you even realize what the words 'platonic' and 'siscon' mean when attached to each other?? That's literally just sister with benefits, which is basically already what siscon is because siscon is a complex born of sexual attraction and not romance. And if you have to come all the way over here on anon and try to one up me, you're clearly reaching for the sake of making yourself feel better about the author's proudly displayed fetish

I'm so fucking tired of people saying that what is clearly meant to be read as horny behavior must not be horny if they aren't also in love, because the two do not go hand in hand. Stop coming up with excuses for this. They're weak at best.

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Thanks for reading. Here's my responds, sorry for taking so long.

1: Rantaro calling himself "Ultimate Siscon" might've been a joke, sure. But he clearly admits having Sister complex before that:

The reason why he says this is because how obsessive he is about his sisters. Which is the definition of Siscon. "Siscon: Being obsessed with one own sister". Siscon simply does not have sexual connotations. (Plus he has been refer to as a siscon in interviews as well. So there's that.) Bonus: Korekiyo might've been heavily implied to be Kodaka's first inc#st character. Because not only was Inc#est supposed to be Korekiyo's unique or "one-of-a-kind" trait in the series. But Kodaka didn't even know the negative reception of inc#st until he created Korekiyo.

2: (I thought only Shuichi's FTE are skippable. And Kaede's FTEs arent?) Except Kaede clearly stated she didn't mean it like that. When Kaede asked Korekiyo, she clearly innocently meant to ask if Korekiyo has a sister complex platonically. Korekiyo was the one who took it the wrong way. (Makes sense, for obvious reasons).

3: The pokemon one was just an example. And it was more about debunking your arguement that "if you blush about your sister, than it's inc#st" in anime as whole, and not just Kodaka's stuff. (Like even if you're right about Mukuro, you ARE wrong in your claim that "all siscons in anime who blushes and fangirling are inc#stous.") As someone who's seen plenty of anime, here's plenty of platonic, blushy siscons examples.

4: Yes, I'm fully aware that I'm taking the Komaru thing out of context, but that's my point: Komaru blushing was completely out of context, and shouldn't be assumed to be inc#stous just from "blushing" like Toko did.

Just like with Mukuro. Since Mukuro is specifically blushing and ecstatic from understanding Junko Despair, and not from Junko herself. In the Japanese version of UTDP, Mukuro outright admits that's what she's ecstatic about SPECIFICALLY:

So yeah, Mukuro gets ecstatic because she's an ULTIMATE DESPAIR, who supposed to feel ecstasy when experiencing Junko's Despair. Her ecstasy is NOT from her sister complex.

5: No, my point is that Narita KNOWS that Mukuro is a siscon, but did not see Mukuro as inc#stous, Keep in mind, regardless IF being canon or not, it doesn't change the fact that a novelist who writes inc#st all the time, FAIL to see inc#st in this DR0 scene, If Mukuro's ecstasy and ragged breathing didn't even convince a inc#st writer, why would it convince me? And I know why (because again, Platonic siscon is a common trope, and Narita KNOWS that.) And no, Mukuro is still clearly a siscon in Danganronpa IF, because she still has excessive feelings and obsession over her even after betraying Junko. Her whole goal was to bring Junko Despair to make her happy, that's still a siscon. AND she gets blushy and a warm personality just like in Danganronpa Zero during Ch: 3 of IF. Narita already has a Sibcon character who acts similarly to Mukuro that we can use for comparison on how he writes sibling-complex.

As you can see here: Both of these Sibcons written by Narita, has the same trait of normally being emotionless, but when they're around their sibling, they get all warm and blushy.

HOWEVER, the difference is that Narita ALWAYS confirms that Namie is inc#stous whenever she gets blushy. And by my count, Narita confirms Namie is inc#stous 16+ times in the novels, SIXTEEN. But NEVER ONCE confirms it with Mukuro??? Despite Narita is clearly aware that Mukuro is a siscon who ALSO blushes and obsessive like Namie? This is because Narita knows WHY Mukuro gets ecstatic. It's not from her sister-complex. It's specfically from being an Ultimate Despair as stated before. Hell, he literally wrote: "Thanks to her status as a member of Super High School Level Despair, her heart was filling with joy." - IF chapter 4.

This also explains why Mukuro doesn't act all blushy or masochistic after betraying Junko, because again: her ecstasy is from her status as an Ultimate Despair. Not her sister-complex. So once her Despair status is gone, so is her ecstasy. But her Sister-complex to obsessively make her sister happy still remained. The only time when Narita avoid confirming a Sibcon is inc#stous is when he writes PLATONIC SIBCON like Shizuo. And Mukuro shouldn't be no different.

As Narita himself puts it: Sibling-complex is okay, as long as it isn't as bad as Namie Yagiri.

6: I'm confused. What's your debunk here? That it's unrequited love from Byakuya and Sonia? Well that applies to Junko too, doesn't it? The ❤️ symbol clearly refers to sexual attractions, and not romantic. Considering Ruruka and Izayoi aren't coded with a ❤️ either, despite being a canon couple. Which makes sense, since in the chart. Toko and Soda are the only characters we KNOW has sexual feelings for someone. And yet the fact that Mukuro is not labeled with one is practically a sign to say she doesn't have sexual feelings like Toko and Soda.

If you're struggling, that's probably because you're searching Sister complex in English. The term "Sister-complex" may differ from different culture. For example, I'm from China, and sister complex in china simply means strong family love. As stated in the Chinese version of the same Wikipedia you used.

According to Japanese Pixiv dictionary (basically Japanese most used dictionary for anime): States that because Sister complex has different meaning. It can be platonic or sexual. But generally it simply means excessive sibling love.

Also as the anon says. "Sister complex means to have excessive attachment to one's sister". It's not from AI, it's literally from Japanese Dictionary and it's also stated in the same exact Wikipedia page you used earlier.

And I feel like I shouldn't be need to say this: but just because Siscon had a sexual origin, it doesn't apply exclussively to it's current definition.

Thanks for reading.

1- As an aroallo, yes, you can feel sexual attraction without being in love with them first. If you unironically believe otherwise, I recommend looking up the demi label and seeing if that fits you, but that is not how everyone operates.

2- The AI generated result is really gonna be your source? Okay then. Anyways, here's where the term comes from

Siscon and brocon are psychologically determined to come from sexual instinct. The term itself was later coined in the 60s and has since become an anime trope. Yes, it's sexual in nature. No, having breath go ragged at the thought of your sibling, drooling over the sight of your sibling, blushing and moaning when talking about your sibling, none of that is platonic. None of that is normal or okay, and going out of your way to find loopholes and say that it's acceptable behavior by slapping the word 'platonic' on it isn't fucking cool.

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Heeey, @shsl-hubris-guy. It's been a while. It's me LK64. Not sure if you remember me. But anyway, someone send me this, so I'm responding it.

"Siscon is sexual"

Correction: Sister complex CAN be sexual. HOWEVER, it can be platonic just as well. In Japan, Siscon does not mean sexual attraction exclusively. And more often than not, it's always safer to assume it's platonic. (And as a asian guy myself, this is pretty common knowledge, atleast for us). Which is why Rantaro can proudly call himself the "Ultimate Siscon" without being gross like Korekiyo.

In fact, when you (or atleast, Kaede) first meet Korekiyo, you're supposed to assume he's a platonic siscon as well. (BEFORE the plot twist reveals that he wasn't, otherwise, this won't even be a plot-twist).

"Blushing towards sibling = inc#st"

Almost every platonic sibcons in other series also does this, including characters from KID SHOWS (like Kiawe from Pokemon). It doesn't prove anything. Which also includes Komaru Naegi, who's also confirmed to blush about his own brother for being a brocon.

And Komaru herself clearly establish that there's a difference between being a Sibling complex and being Inc#stous.

"Mukuro is clearly meant to be read as having horny behavior"

Um... Clearly Not. Considering the novelist IF writer: Ryogo Narita, did not interpreted Mukuro having lust for Junko when reading Dangarnonpa Zero either or while writing Dangarnonpa IF with Kodaka. Keep in Mind: Narita writes horny inc#st characters in his own series all the time, (like Namie Yagiri). And usually always makes sure to CONFIRM it to avoid being mistaken for platonic family love. Here's a 1 example of how he writes inc#st:

Narita clealry does not sugarcoat when writing this type of stuff. And yet, when Narita wrote Mukuro, it's completely devoid of Narita's usual inc#estous writing. This is because Narita KNOWS Mukuro has no sexual feelings for Junko thanks to Kodaka. Narito also knows what platonic sibcons are, considering he has written those before too.

After all, Mukuro is not even sexually-coded with Junko in DR3's official relationship chart. If Mukuro trully had sexual feelings for Junko, (like Toko with Togami, and Soda with Sonia.) Then there's absolutely 0 reason for Mukuro not be ❤️-coded with Junko like Toko and Sonia are. Instead all it says is "大好き" which means "to really like" someone.

1- As an aroallo, yes, you can feel sexual attraction without being in love with them first. If you unironically believe otherwise, I recommend looking up the demi label and seeing if that fits you, but that is not how everyone operates.

2- The AI generated result is really gonna be your source? Okay then. Anyways, here's where the term comes from

Siscon and brocon are psychologically determined to come from sexual instinct. The term itself was later coined in the 60s and has since become an anime trope. Yes, it's sexual in nature. No, having breath go ragged at the thought of your sibling, drooling over the sight of your sibling, blushing and moaning when talking about your sibling, none of that is platonic. None of that is normal or okay, and going out of your way to find loopholes and say that it's acceptable behavior by slapping the word 'platonic' on it isn't fucking cool.

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I don't think Anon was refering to fandom's characterization at all, their comment makes it clear that they assume thats the IF potrayal. And one act of kindness isn’t going to break her out of her loyalty like DR IF tries to make it. I feel IF downplays the deep seated issues Mukuro have and turns her into a romanized abuse victim who needs love.

Hating on a fandom's characterization from misinterpretation is totally valid. But the anon is just as guilty because they literally interpretated the same exact thing. Using a double-edged sword.

Besides, "Mukuro being a Junko enabler" is a bigger misinterpretation or mischaracterization than anything the anon have said. I feel like even Despair sisters fans would agree that Junko is always the enabler who encourages Mukuro, and never the other way around.

I feel people forget that Mukuro’s not an innocent UwU abuse victim that Junko abuses, she’s also a massive enabler too. Even if she disagrees with Junko’s methods, Mukuro still encourages her and goes along with her plans. And one act of kindness isn’t going to break her out of her loyalty like DR IF tries to make it. I feel IF downplays the deep seated issues Mukuro have and turns her into a romanized abuse victim who needs love.

Also IF doesn’t even give us Mukuro’s real name and why she hates it. Lord imagine if in IF, we learn her real name and why she hates it and why she picked an edgy name (Mukuro Ikusaba means War blade corpse). Imagine if she got a much better new name given to her by her classmates like Sayaka and Leon.

Oh yeah, absolutely, Mukuro's a stone-cold killer who's loyal to Junko and it kinda upsets me that there's not more people who see it that way

The worst part is that most of the fandom not only takes away that element of her, but they also reduce her to the girl with a crush on Makoto, and it's like...c'mon, really?

Yeah, I get why it's there, IF. But, even though I'm not the biggest fan of Mukuro, seeing her boiled down to a literal [Y/N]'s love interest when she's actually got cool stuff going on for her just genuinely frustrates me

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I don't think this anon read IF more than once, or at all. Because this guy does not understand the novel or Mukuro in that story. Mukuro did not betray Junko as something as cliche as kindness or tired of abuse. Mukuro betrays Junko because she finally understand what despair is, and wants to give Junko the despair she wanted by betraying her and ruin her life. And Mukuro learned what despair is both from her attachment to Makoto and Junko's betrayal.

Also, Mukuro is not the enabler. An enabler is someone who encourage someone's bad behaviour to continue. Junko is 100% the enabler between the 2 for several obvious reasons.

I understand hating the shipping fandom's potrayal of the characters, but I will never understand blaming an officially approved story for it. Danganronpa IF understand Mukuro's character, and is not only faithfully accurate, but also supervised and praised by Kodaka himself.

I feel people forget that Mukuro’s not an innocent UwU abuse victim that Junko abuses, she’s also a massive enabler too. Even if she disagrees with Junko’s methods, Mukuro still encourages her and goes along with her plans. And one act of kindness isn’t going to break her out of her loyalty like DR IF tries to make it. I feel IF downplays the deep seated issues Mukuro have and turns her into a romanized abuse victim who needs love.

Also IF doesn’t even give us Mukuro’s real name and why she hates it. Lord imagine if in IF, we learn her real name and why she hates it and why she picked an edgy name (Mukuro Ikusaba means War blade corpse). Imagine if she got a much better new name given to her by her classmates like Sayaka and Leon.

Oh yeah, absolutely, Mukuro's a stone-cold killer who's loyal to Junko and it kinda upsets me that there's not more people who see it that way

The worst part is that most of the fandom not only takes away that element of her, but they also reduce her to the girl with a crush on Makoto, and it's like...c'mon, really?

Yeah, I get why it's there, IF. But, even though I'm not the biggest fan of Mukuro, seeing her boiled down to a literal [Y/N]'s love interest when she's actually got cool stuff going on for her just genuinely frustrates me

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No, no. Her motivation in DR3 is confirmed to be the same as DRS. It's all about Mukuro believing that she's the only one who can "Understand Junko's Despair". That's always been her motivation.

By the way; Mukuro does not act ecstatic or masochistic because she's in-love with her sister (she's not, btw.). It's been specifically stated that Mukuro believing she's the only one who understands Junko's despair makes her feels ecstatic. This has been stated multiple times in the novels and bonus material. In the japanese version of UTDP, Mukuro outright admits that's whats she's doing.

Even Mukuro's masochism you see in DR3 was nothing more than a facade of her trying to understand Junko's despair through her abuse.

anyone else feel like the danganronpa S characterisation of Mukuro was far more interesting than the dr3 anime?

in the anime, her motives seem to be being in love with Junko, but in DRS, it's clearly because she believes she is the only person who can understand Junko. She's uncertain on spreading despair for the sake of despair, but more than anything, she doesn't want to abandon her sister.

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Maybe Anon should start with Kodaka himself. Considering that Naekusaba never would've existed if it weren't for him canonically adopted it and saved Danganronpa IF from cancelation. Lmao.

I swear to god if I can I would dox and murder all naekusaba shippers from that thai Twitter user and even that drif animator. No one should know more about naekusaba. Let's start naekusaba shippers genocide.

I think that's a little extreme, but I'm more than happy to start an Anti-Naekusaba union with you

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Well hopefully I'll die after I finished animating Danganronpa IF.

I swear to god if I can I would dox and murder all naekusaba shippers from that thai Twitter user and even that drif animator. No one should know more about naekusaba. Let's start naekusaba shippers genocide.

I think that's a little extreme, but I'm more than happy to start an Anti-Naekusaba union with you

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This is the first time someone wants to dox and murder me over a harmless ship.

I swear to god if I can I would dox and murder all naekusaba shippers from that thai Twitter user and even that drif animator. No one should know more about naekusaba. Let's start naekusaba shippers genocide.

I think that's a little extreme, but I'm more than happy to start an Anti-Naekusaba union with you

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All this over a ship. lmao

I swear to god if I can I would dox and murder all naekusaba shippers from that thai Twitter user and even that drif animator. No one should know more about naekusaba. Let's start naekusaba shippers genocide.

I think that's a little extreme, but I'm more than happy to start an Anti-Naekusaba union with you

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Junko's abuses towards Mukuro in Danganronpa 3 are also potrayed playful, humurous and unserious. When Junko's abuses ARE being potrayed seriously however, (such as Gungnir, DR0's ending, and several IF's scenes), Mukuro consistently shows a completely opposite and non-masochistic reactions. - LK64

Would you say that Junko is abusive towards Mukuro becus I’ve seen people argue about this topic 😭 I mean,,, Maybe I’m just projecting as someone who is an victim of incest but it is very clearly (shit it’s like right in your face) abuse.

It’s so annoying that the fandom is like “Erm Korekiyo was groomed by his sister don’t be insensitive >:(“ then turn around and say shit like Mukuro is in love with Junko.

Yes, I don't know how anyone can say otherwise 😭

Junko literally verbally abuses her on the regular and manipulates her, but even more there's multiple scenes in Danganronpa 3 where she physically abuses her. She straight up kicks her to the ground.

I wrote about it in my big Mukuro analysis, but Mukuro is not "in love" with Junko nor is she a masochist who enjoys abuse. She just lets Junko abuse her because she thinks it's the only way to keep Junko caring about her. She has attachment issues and doesn't want to lose the person who, at that point, was the only person to ever care about her. I'd recommend reading that analysis as I go a bit more in depth there.