katherinakaina

[katherinakaina]

Symbolism in Pathologic is admittedly pretty vague and Rorshah-testy. But I do not believe it was made to be this way deliberately to undermine the meaning of the metaphors, to say that there is no true way to decode them or even narrow the realm of interpretations down. I believe there is a variety of opinions within the narrative on what each symbol represents because that’s exactly how it works in real life.

To pick a random example, public education. A utopian dream once, a norm in most countries today. When it first appeared, it basically created ‘teenager’ as a separate social class. Whereas before children were glued to their families, now they were spending most of their time together, developing their own identities. The entire industry of entertainment targeting children emerged and many many more unforeseen consequences, maybe including revolutions.

But if you pretend to explore our world as a game where your only way to make sense of it is conversations with random NPCs – you’ll get variety of opinions on education ranging from ‘an oppressive system of government indoctrination that tears families apart’ to ‘the beacon of enlightenment, the most crucial pillar of civil and democratic society, the main engine of progress and the source of everything good in the world’. You can get a lot of nuanced critiques from its supporters who wish for it to be better. You will even hear subdued praises from its opponents who pretend to be balanced and reasonable. But how do you, you know, discover what’s really the case?

In reality you do science and discover the facts. But sometimes, often even, facts aren't the most important thing. Whether a given crisis is really happening can be not important at all if you just don't care, ask any oil baron.

The truth is that everyone might be right from their point of view. The problem is not necessarily that people are lying. After all, people who hate public education will often oversell its actual effectiveness. And people who love education can spend all day tearing it apart for not being effective enough. The disagreement is a value judgement. Do you want an educated society? Do you want a right for self determination for young people? Or do you want for the institution of family to reign supreme? For tradition to live on?

Pathologic, in my opinion, is the same. Everyone might be right about Polyhedron, even if they oversell their opinions, emotionally charge them. It doesn’t mean you are free to choose which version is correct and which is a false narrative, not necessarily anyway. I think it calls for you to make a value judgment of your own.

In my case, I grow suspicious when I see a character who is incensed by the idea of children congregating together, doing their own thing. Who starts complaining that this New Thing tears society apart, pulls children from their families, destroys parental authority. Who targets parentless children trying to ‘guide’ them and specifically call them ‘her children’ and herself ‘their mother’. Who assigns these children positions in society because god forbid they decide for themselves. When I see a character like this I ask, who is this, what are their motives? Ah, it’s a white rich girl who’s inheriting a position of immense power, that makes sense. Cool that she got to destroy that one New Thing that bugged her so much, that’s surely for the better, that sounds like a good ending.

So, yeah, I’m not sure that ‘I choose this NPC's interpretation of events as the true one’ is such a get out of media literacy free card as it sounds. I think it is still revealing who you choose to believe and why. And it may be an indicator of what type of demagogues can trick you in real life.

[katherinakaina]

I have seen that image believe it or not. My comment still stands.

Pathologic has two types of children, those in the Tower and those in the Town, two ways people can continue themselves, through ideas systems and art or through raising new generations, genes vs memes.

Notably, Artemy always has an option to save children of the Town, his bound and Soul-and-a-Halves, and always has an option to kill children of the Tower, the Dogheads. It's always Dogheads, the faceless children, the abstract children, the metaphorical children.

I know they call it womb, too, but it's a bit more complicated than that. Destruction of the Tower is not a metaphor for abortion or hysterectomy. It's pretty consistently compared to a beheading.

Ok so in pathologic, the polyhedron is symbolically a womb. And also daniil is in love with that structure and wants to stick his dick in it. Thoughts conceived isolated from one another, but nonetheless connected

[katherinakaina]

You know how all Termites prefer to go by nicknames instead of names given by parents? Victoria Olgimskaya is Capella and Kaspar Kain is Khan. Murky, Sticky and Grace don’t even have regular names. All of them remember their parents but never mention their given names, they probably forgot them. Notkin only uses a surname as if he forgot his name too, but honors his family’s memory. The only exception is Taya Tycheek. Both name and surname, no nickname, no interesting variation, nothing.

I believe names are important in Pathologic. I believe it’s symbolic that Olgimskys named their children after themselves and Kains didn’t and Saburovs couldn’t name their daughter at all, she named herself. I believe it’s relevant that all Termites are full orphans by the end of the game and choose their own names. It gives the Termite ending some hopefulness – they determine their own essence and choose their own future. The Town can become better.

But only Taya bears her father’s name without any alterations. She is the only one who is completely immersed in her society and adheres to it fully.

Does it mean that the Kin have nothing to change about themselves? Arranged marriages, sacrifices, rigid social structure, women aren’t even allowed to learn Longmark, their own writing system? No society is presented as perfect in Pathologic.

You could assume that Taya’s name means they can’t change. Or don’t want to. But honestly, I think it’s an oversight. To a Russian ear name Taya Tycheek sounds foreign and interesting. So whoever did the writing overlooked the need for a nickname.

I’d like to change that and headcanon, or even fanon if I’m lucky, a nickname for Taya. I think a mouse or a jerboa in buryat or any other language that is used to mishmash the Steppe Language together, depending on what sounds better and like a nickname a child would use. It is admittedly pretty tough because Google Translate is spewing nonsense. Wikipedia is something I can at least trust but having a native speaker would be better.

I propose Алаг дааган (alag daagan), a full name of a local species of jerboa. Shortened to Alag it would, I think, mean ‘striped’. Which fits with Taya's clothing in p1. I am not set on this, and I welcome suggestions.

[katherinakaina]

So Pathologic came out during pride month huh...

[katherinakaina]

every artist who has ever attempted to satirize masculinity i am so sorry

[katherinakaina]

My favourite character? Oh y'know... The one from that video game, the one about stopping a disastrous event that turns out to be fictional even within the world of the game? The lone teenage girl amongst the adult protagonists who knows deep down that this world is not what it seems and that she doesn't belong there. She knows that the people around her aren't Real and yet desires to help them regardless. She also has a doppelganger that is antagonistic yet sisterly towards her and a mother who is distant and lives in a dream world. You know the one.

[katherinakaina]

Good day, wonderful stranger!

Thank you so much for speaking out about Strange's video about Methods, it hurt me to the core how misinformed it was. Did she ever respond to your post?

I found your interpretation of Methods very interesting, but I have some minor disagreements I would like a chat about, as well some stuff about rationalist community. May I DM you or should I send asks? Also, would you prefer I use Russian or English?

Hi. Thanks for taking time to read them. I was sure I was writing into the void, I just needed to get it off my chest. But I'm glad someone saw it nonetheless.

No, she never responded and I doubt she even saw them. I dropped into her inbox that Voldemort was meant to be a bad guy because I think it's the funniest misinterpretation on her part and I think she reads her inbox. So if anything she at least knows about that now. But she didn't reply.

You can DM me but I'm a slow responder. Use whatever language you prefer, I am equally comfortable with both.

[katherinakaina]

The original name for Pathologic 2005 was Мор Утопия - Pestilence Utopia. Pathologic 2 was called just Мор in Russian, only Pestilence.

Obviously, Pathologic 3 should be called just Utopia. Come on!

Then Pathologic 4 could be called Мор Утопия 2. It just makes sense.

[katherinakaina]

The appeal of Eva Yan in the Bachelor’s route is that she doesn’t demand anything from him at any point, not even his time. Even her second day quest is an attempt to save his life. She’s probably the first person in his life to like him for who he is and asking for nothing in return. Even A. from Thanatica is all about Daniil’s work being valuable.

The tragedy is that Daniil has no ability to take this opportunity or even recognize it. He ignores the only person who loves him unconditionally to run around saving hostile ungrateful townsfolk. And when she’s taken away from him it’s not about him not paying enough attention to her making him responsible for it. It’s about his relentless schedule taking this last opportunity at connection and closeness with another human away. Because when the opportunity was there he had no time for it. It’s about how people with ‘hero jobs’ have a hard time maintaining relationships and friendships.

[katherinakaina]

> someone put thought into Clara's ending

> she isn't smiling

> she's being serious about things

> my hp increases on its own no morphine needed

in which the changeling has memorized her lines and knows the role she needs to play.

the sand beneath the children's nails are now caked with dirt, their sandy shoes turn soiled and muddy. and in the town-on-gorkhon, life blooms.

[katherinakaina]

Hmmm... We've been preoccupied with 'where will Artemy get the living blood' question. But what about all the twyre needed? In p1 specifically he can't get it without providing Worms with blood and organs. They say that's just how it grows, on blood. Continuous human sacrifice is needed all the time just to make the herbs grow. Blood will always be necessary to make the panacea because the Earth just doesn't surrender her wonders without it. Seems like the Termite ending has just as much of it as the Humble does. It requires slaughtering bulls forever at the very least. Forever, no getting away from it, that would be utopia.

[katherinakaina]

You are so correct and you just kill me in the heart. I am astonished that someone else sees it. I am so used to people straight up ignoring this historical approach to Pathologic. That it is all about human history and what it took for us to get here and what it'll take to move forward. Thank you!

If I might hijack here, Pathologic is about history and human nature, so it's history of life on earth. Evolution. Daniil mentions evolution couple of times and it's a pretty clear theme throughout.

The thing is that evolution requires death. It just does. No humans would ever be here if not for strife for survival and unimaginable amounts of death. There's no way around it, whatsoever.

Daniil knows it. I would imagine him talking to the plague in his head, making this argument to him, replying: Thank you. I acknowledge your part in this. Now you may go, we'll take it from here. Your services are no longer needed.

Pathologic is all built on this metaphor of a child separating from their abusive mother. Thanking the mother for raising them but walking away regardless.

So yeah, I only disagree a bit with the part where Daniil is the one who can't accept the sacrifices. I think he knows about sacrifices the entire time. He is utilitarian, he kills people with his own hands to create a vaccine. He agrees with the logic. But it breaks his heart anyway. He is sacrificing himself, too.

Wait, hold on, I want to talk about Marxism and the Kains. If you will bear with me. And if you will also let go of/forget the Omelas child because I don't think the Kains want that kind of utopia, either.

For the Kains, the town was made as a focus to capture a "mystical manifestation of a world inscrutable and inaccessible for men" because sometimes, that impossible, fantasy world collides with the mundane. Example: mundane materials from mundane flesh-and-blood people created the Polyhedron, which houses genuine "mystical manifestations" and is "inscrutable."

When Maria says that Utopia requires "dirt, blood, manure, devourment, skins, meat, and bone tools," she means that it's part of the creation, not the product. Literally what the Kains want is an eclipse-like event brought about by a miracle and then captured to be used as a Utopia. Here's the timeline:

create the mundane town -> create a society wherein there exists two conflicting groups, devourers and creators, that live together -> the sustained existence of this is a miracle -> the "mystical world" eclipse is here and needs to be captured -> build a structure to house the miracle -> they build the Cathedral but it's not good enough -> the Kains fail.

This is why people in the game refer to the Kains as a cult because, to them, the true metamorphosis of utopia isn't "the dream of mercantile prosperity, sensible social structure, or political fairness." It's not Thomas More's or anybody's draft of a well-structured world - there is no Omelas, there is no child - it's this tenth-dimension reality that already exists in our world but is so inconceivable to us that it's invisible. In the sense that antibiotics have always existed in our world, even before they were made - we just couldn't always conceptualize of them. True Utopia is this on an unimaginably macro level.

The Kains suddenly, surprisingly succeed in the creation of the Polyhedron. They capture a miracle and can finally interact with and view it. This is the start of their Final Utopia.

Where the human rights abuses kick in is not in the product but in the creation of a Final Utopia.

This is what Georgiy (or Simon) has to say about it in the Marble Nest:

"My heart aches for [the dead]. This is dreadfully cruel. But perhaps the thing we are trying to build can only be erected with the help of those who have passed it - the exam of death. Who has learned not to fight it, like you do; not to deny it, but rather ... Embed it into themselves. Use it. Humanity has learned to use the law of gravity, hasn't it? There is your proof, just look out of the window. There was a time when humans could not brave the sky. But that time has passed."

So the idea here is that progress (toward an existence so advanced it is impossible, unthinkable) requires suffering. It requires poverty so that it can learn from poverty, dying so that we can learn to stop it. Imagine that we are in Dankovsky's future, where everyone is immortal; we are dependent on the pre-existence of death. All forms of dying were integral to this future.

In the same way that communism requires capitalism so that it can learn from the suffering of capitalism (according to Marx).

What Georgiy has to say about "not fighting the exam" is Marx's approach to history.

"Achieving modern levels of civilization required ancient chattel slavery and/or similar systems of brutal exploitation, misery and subjugation to begin the process of material accumulation that led to further innovation and cultural advance. Thus the broad historical alternatives are either justice on the basis of atomized farming at the eternal mercy of nature, or slavery and similar systems of brutality with the ultimate result of reaching modern civilizations." - Jeffrey Vogel

This is also not in dismissal of suffering, either.

"No such justificatory reasons are available for those who are required to sacrifice themselves on behalf of human progress. ... It is implausible to expect self-respecting slaves to regard our benefit as a sufficient reason for the sacrifice of their one life on earth." - Jeffrey Vogel (again. i'd recommend reading this article)

The tragedy of history is that liberty needs to be prioritized over justice in order for the creation of true communism. Communism, or utopia, or whatever the Kains are making, needs to benefit off the pain of those who never get to see it. And nobody has to like it, or feel okay about it. As Georgiy says, "this is dreadfully cruel."

Here I am at the plate, and not to "go up to bat" for more deeply flawed Pathologic characters, but the reason why the Kains are left-leaning is because they are Marxist, but the ugly kind of Marxist that isn't only about overthrowing capitalism and ignoring what came before it; how communism, in many ways, should thank capitalism - not like it, but thank it.

tl;dr, we all want utopia or an ideal state of living and the kains are people who don't ignore that ideal living stems from miserable injustices (I do also think that the Kains take missteps in their own Marxist philosophy because of interpersonal reasons - ie sometimes those injustices happen to them, too, and they don't like it - nobody does! they struggle on their strings)

tl;dr dankovsky goes home and kills himself not because the utopian future is ruled by conservative futurists but because he cannot morally justify the process it took to get there within himself. if utopia requires death than he'd prefer to join the dead. this is not the world for him.

tl;dr russian game is russian

[katherinakaina]

https://www.tumblr.com/komsomolka/781865286817267712?source=share

have you seen this? I didn't know "utopian ending is fascist" is a take someone could have

No, I think this blog has me blocked though I'm not sure. They also seem to be anti Ukraine and generally a tankie? But hard to tell without seeing the blog.

Anyway, this take is dumb as shit. Very clearly a selective reading of the text. Maria could be read as sort of a Stalin figure, who is a fascist for sure. But socialists aren't fascists because their party was taken over by fascists and cleansed (they were killed and tortured, with families). They are the victims, of their own naivety as well. Daniil isn't in the utopian ending for the same reason Trotsky got ice-picked in the head. Yes, killed with an ice pick. 💁‍♀️

Anyway, that's why I'm humble Daniil for life.

[katherinakaina]

At the point that you are talking about someone's Harry Potter fanfiction in the same way that people talk about holy texts, I think you are also pretty close to being in a cult.

Lol. I pretty clearly analyze it as a piece of literature. You should try the same instead of thinking about it as 'someone's cult text with dangerous ideas'. You'll get more out of it this way.

I would also advise you to look around before making assumptions. You are on a Pathologic blog ffs. If I am in a cult, it's the cult of the Humbles, we feed human civilization with blood of willing martyrs here. You aren't allowed to kill anyone but yourself in this one.

(I did say that none of us internet weirdos are safe, that includes me, duh)

[katherinakaina]

I really like the idea that Farkhad was 10-20 years older than Stamatins. And they really hated each other instead if being romantically involved (and not both). Not because shipping people of different races is problematic somehow (really, wtf) but because Farkhad actually has more potential with Saburov. Seriously, who tries to avenge some random dude who may or may not had been killed a decade ago? It only makes sense if Saburov at least considered Farkhad a close friend which is plausible if they were the same age and closer to each other ideologically. Despite being hired by the Kains Farkhad seems to be rather old school and tame in comparison to Stamatins. He probably thought them stupid kids and went drinking tea to the Rod. It seems to be before Saburov married too. Or just around that time. Maybe that wild romance and afterwards grief stained his marriage somewhat. So many possibilities here.

[katherinakaina]

So true! But what do you do with characters you find less relatable? I feel lost and like an imposter when I write a character who is not like me for real. I also fear they don't come out like consistent characters since I struggle with holding them in my head. So many downsides in this type of writing but I don't know how else to do it!

when i write, it's nearly always 'method-writing' - getting into my character's head and feeling what they feel. which is good and bad. in some ways it's great and means my characters are always surprising me. but also, with how much i like to torture my characters, it's...a lot. sitting with their feelings of emptiness, hate, jealousy, overwhelm, or despair. feeling my heart physically race or my stomach twist as a write a scene. i wonder if becoming them is, in some ways, changing me

[katherinakaina]

Daniil would be mean to Elon Musk before it was cool and everyone would think him aggressive and unhinged.

A very interesting thing about Daniil Dankovsky (at least in Patho Classic, I’m not far enough into Patho 2 to have a full grasp of his character there) is that he’s a very good representation of how being a caring person can turn you genuinely kind of hateful, it’s such a sticking point to me that a lot of the hatred he holds towards other characters in the game is rooted in the fact that they’re callous towards the needs and wants of other people, be it the whole ‘leaders of the town fighting each other for power during a deadly plague’, be it his loss of respect for Vlad Jr when he finds out about the medicine testing, or even his bitter hatred for Aglaya when he realises that she doesn’t really care about saving people and being an impartial judge WHICH IS HER JOB, just about spiting The Powers That Be. So many times the reason he begins to resent certain characters is when he realises that they don’t care for others and view their own wants and needs as more important than others. A la, his hatred towards others is rooted in his love for humanity.

So on that note, I think that if Daniil Dankovsky existed in todays society he would despise generative AI, in this essay I will-