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Azula actually isn't interested in power for its own sake; she's driven by her desire to excel, because it's the only thing that has ever gotten her positive attention and affection from her father. She doesn't seem to have any interest in being Firelord until Zuko is officially disinherited (my recollection is that she promises to be the best leader ever at the time). Her actions in Season 2 don't make any sense if her goal is the throne; she has never been asked to hunt the Avatar by Ozai and could have brought Zuko home in disgrace instead of lying about him fulfilling the terms of his banishment. I'm not sure she'd even have fought Zuko for the throne had he not been branded a traitor to the Fire Nation and had Ozai not given her the (diminished) title of Firelord.

I'm not sure how well Azula would deal with forced inactivity, but her first instinct would clearly be to find some way to serve her nation again. Even in the stupid comics (that I haven't read) she's trying to "make" Zuko a better Firelord (per an insane definition), not simply attacking him or trying to supplant him.

i have a hard time understanding azula as zuko's enemy in post-a:tla content. i prefer a socially-awkward azula struggling with depression and anxiety, using sarcasm, dry humor that rarely lands well and hyper fixating on hobbies to make up for the fact she has none outside of her appearance, firebending and the war room. i still want her to be a pain in zuko's side and annoy him.

i do not think their relationship would ever be on trusting, good terms but i think what would be interesting is that by having azula as a quasi-advisor, zuko learns more about himself and what he stands for.

i read a post about this that everything azula would say zuko would do the opposite or something like it because he knows her motives. i just think azula would be helpful in respect to knowing the key players of zuko's court because he inherited them from ozai.

the concern is azula would manipulate them to support her as fire lord.

i can see reasons why this would not happen and reasons how it could.

at this point, i am biased because i'd rather see azula exhausted from her father's imprisonment, the loss of the war and zuko taking the throne. that she would rather choose the long, hard path of redemption instead of a quick, deranged fix like being a vigilante to zuko and his regime because, well, i don't see azula giving up palace comforts for rummaging in the woods

we could have had more azula from the beach episode to enjoy is all i'm saying

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Yikes. That's a take from bizarro-world.

Sokka's entire story arc is about his personal growth away from uncertainty about his worth and role in the world (and the whining or defensiveness that accompanies it).

Saw someone describe Sokka as "the guy who thinks he's the main character who slowly realises he's not" and that he becomes whiny about that forever and I've never been so viscerally driven to violence so quickly in my life

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It may be implicit that Ty Lee and Mai's fate would be different depending on who won the final agni kai, but it's canon that Zuko did not free Mai and that he was surprised she was released from prison.

It's not clear how much time passes between three adjacent scenes -- the end of Sozin's Comet at sunset; a day scene between Mai and a bandaged Zuko at the FN royal palace with some battle damage seen on other buildings; and the coronation of Zuko as Firelord with no apparent damage remaining in the FN capital and delegations present from the other nations.

It could be that there's only a day or two between Sozin's comet and the Zuko/Mai scene; it could be a week or two before Mai's uncle (the warden of Boiling Rock) releases her. In either case, I think it's fair to say it's canon that checking up on Mai's welfare and freeing her from prison after she saves him at Boiling Rock are not on Zuko's radar.

How understandable that is will be pretty much a matter of interpretation. I think it's been a few days to a week, and that it's pretty understandable given that Zuko is (a) recovering from a serious injury, (b) trying to assume control of a wartime nation that's effectively had its leadership structure decapitated, and (c) had really big things on his plate pre-Comet.

But I think it also reflects -- as I guess a Zuko "skeptic" who loves him in the full knowledge he's maybe the edgiest edgelord teen ever -- that Zuko is pretty self-centered and really only focuses on people who aren't present when he wants something from them (like Ozai's "love" or Aang's capture to gain the former or Azula's recognition of his superiority), and is overall a pretty spectacularly shitty boyfriend to Mai over the course of the show. (Most of the reason I hate everything I hear about the comics is that Zuko seems to have backtracked on all the progress he was making during the show, instead of completing his personal growth.)

There's a weird parallel between Zuko abandoning Mai and not even thinking about rescuing her and Sokka only caring about rescuing Suki when Azula directly rubs his face in it.

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Nah, if Zuko decides he's going to try to be a good big brother to Azula, he will never ever ever give up on it. He just won't ever adapt his approach or seek advice/assistance with it, either. Years pass, and Zuko grows increasingly frustrated that brute-forcing his relationship with Azula by trying his first thought over and over again isn't working, but keeps doing it forever regardless.

There's nothing weirder to me than the constant "Zuko is a good brother" trope in the fandom, since Zuko is so many things, both good and bad, but one of the things he never shows the slightest interest in or inclination toward in canon is being a good brother.

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Especially by the folks making the Netflix live-action adaptation.

I feel like Sokka is weirdly under analyzed as a character.

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Buffy is the BEST character in BtVS. But Faith and Anya are my FAVORITE characters in BtVS. Just because something is objectively better doesn’t mean a different lesser thing can’t bring you more joy regardless.

But I also think it’s impossible to dispute that for total amusement provided on a per episode basis, Vampire Willow is absolutely unrivaled.

I am so suspicious of you if your favourite buffy character is not buffy. like wdym. she’s literally everything what more could you want from her

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Arsonist’s Lullaby is fantastic and has two of my favorite Azula scenes that I’ve ever read. And, uh, I’ve read a lot of Azula-focused AtLA fanfic.

Figured I'd recommend this, given how much fun I've been having with it: Arsonist's Lullaby, by Magery on Sufficient Velocity. A story/forum quest following Azula living the same nine days from Sozin's Comet over and over and over again, to whenever or wherever her eventual defeat takes place, and then right back to Mai's "I love Zuko more than I fear you". After repeated failures to escape, Azula begins trying new tactics that find her confronting her own various truths of herself and the world

I suppose I should probably check it out, even though I'm not very drawn to quests. Sufficient Velocity is a quite a place.

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This seems like it would really depend on how Azula ultimately internalizes/reconciles her relationship with Ozai. In canon ATLA, we don't see anything about Azula beyond the moment of her defeat. Prior to that point, Ozai is both (1) Azula's only parental figure and source of attention/affection that she is desperate to please/impress and (2) her sovereign ruler who she must obey per Fire Nation hierarchy and on pain of exile/banishment/death. That version of Azula really couldn't work with Zuko, because she'd want to seize power from him either to restore it to Ozai or for herself as his true chosen successor.

But it's hard to imagine Azula being able to heal and make personal progress at all without rejecting Ozai's parental authority over her and recognizing the problems with that relationship. (Which the comics kind of don't seem to have her do?) But I don't know that Azula's personal well-being and mental health require a rejection of the Fire Nation's imperialism and authoritarian power structure. If Zuko is the lawfully appointed Fire Lord, and if he did indeed win their agni kai (by forfeit, when Azula targeted a bystander), and if Azula still embraces the idea that the Fire Lord is her absolute ruler to whom she owes absolute loyalty, then she's obviously not going to attempt to overthrow him - she'd want to help, but would do so only within the confines of being Zuko's obedient subject.

If Azula is deprogrammed as to the Sozin->Ozai era Fire Nation ideology, though, Zuko becomes merely a political leader who can be good or bad. But I think that almost any healthy/recovered Azula would have had to recognize that both she doesn't want power as a monarch and that it would be bad for her if she had it. So I can easily see Azula opposing Zuko, or even advocating for the Fire Nation moving away from absolute monarchy, but it seems to me like she'd be very reluctant to simply seize power from him. Not least of all because many of her on-screen actions were motivated by a desire to have Zuko and her relationship with him "back," at least until that became completely irreconcilable with her relationship with her father and obedience to the Fire Nation.

If the Fire Nation had a political or economic crisis during Zuko's reign, do you think Azula would attempt to seize power to solve it?

Depends very much on the political and social situation post-war. Like, for instance, if Azula and Zuko end of close and with a good relationship, she shouldn't need to seize power to influence policy. The one thing I will say is that if Zuko is perceived as an ineffective, incompetent, and weak ruler, there might be a lot of pressure on Azula to overthrow him.

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If I could like this twice, I would.

avatar chibis

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So, apparently I've reached the age where I have to attempt to explain the music of the '90s and '00s to my daughter. (Teaching her to play Rock Band has accelerated this process.) And I spent a while fumbling, and hemming and hawing, and then checked Wikipedia, and then fumbled some more, and it was all very humiliating, and then finally inspiration struck:

"Okay, look, emo music is Zuko, and goth music is Mai."

And she understood immediately. So the moral of the story is to make your kids watch Avatar, and then figure out how to use it for all instructional / informational metaphors.

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I've seen a number of @nottodayupstarts posts and comments come across my field of vision this spring, and at this point I'm ready to assign her a type: Zuko fan / Azula anti who is trying to gain credibility by pretending to be an Azula fan calling out other Azula fans for going "too far."

And thus, once you scroll past the "I used to love Azula, really I did" caveats, and maybe some "praise" for Azula as a villainous villain who commits villainy (powerful and dangerous!), what @nottodayupstarts actually has to say about Azula is that Zuko is her victim and that any nuance beyond that is "minimizing" the "harm" she has "done." Any potentially "good" traits -- like comforting Ty Lee or Zuko when they are upset -- are actually the outward manifestation of her villainous manipulative prowess.

So, hey, I'm willing to be wrong and change my tune if I see something that isn't consistent with the impressions I've formed. And it's not like I've blocked @nottodayupstarts, so there's every possibility I will. But definitely don't put money on it.

So I've been seeing some stupid takes lately and it's low-key been pissing me off and I have now officially snapped.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and honestly I don't get how Azula keeps getting flattened into a “tragic girlboss” arc. Like yes, she’s tragic. She’s a product of a toxic environment. But that doesn’t make her someone to emulate. Or excuse.   She played a very real role in tormenting Zuko for most of his life. And yeah, she was 14 but she knew what she was doing. She chose it. She enjoyed it. The environment she grew up in encouraged her worst instincts, and that’s what makes her tragic. But it doesn’t make her a victim of Zuko.

I’ve seen people say he should’ve tried harder with her or been a “better brother,” but come on, there’s no brother-sister relationship there. She actively made sure of that. He had nothing to work with, because she never gave him anything to work with. We've seen how he is with others, it's peak big brother energy with Toph and Aang in season 3. He’s protective and supportive in the ways he knows how to be. He's not like that with Azula because he literally can't be a big brother to someone who keeps hurting him.

And I’ve seen people use the final Agni Kai as “proof” that he gave up on her, that he should’ve helped her instead of fighting her but what was he supposed to do? Let her take the throne? Let her rule the Fire Nation in Ozai’s image, fueled by mania and unchecked power? That wasn’t a family dispute. That was a political crisis, and Zuko made the impossible but necessary choice to stop her before she became another tyrant. He wasn’t abandoning her. He was protecting the world from her.

And honestly? I think part of why people minimize what Azula did to Zuko is because the dynamic doesn’t fit the usual trope. People are used to seeing older brothers bullying younger siblings, not the other way around. A younger sister being cruel, manipulative, and violent toward her older brother? That doesn’t slot neatly into familiar narratives, so fandom kind of... downplays it. But Zuko wasn’t the older sibling with power. He was the one being taunted, hurt, humiliated by a sister who was smarter, favored, and fully aware of it. That dynamic matters. The fact that people handwave her behavior as “sibling rivalry” or say he should’ve done more to help her just shows how we underestimate how damaging that kind of relationship can be, especially when it’s a reversal of the typical gendered roles.   And let’s not forget: Zuko is sixteen. He is not a fully healed, emotionally balanced adult. He’s a teenager who has been through years of trauma, gaslighting, and violence, at Azula’s hands. Expecting him to sit down and hold a therapy session with one of his abusers is not just unrealistic, it’s unfair. Healing and responsibility don’t mean sacrificing yourself to save people that beat you down. It means knowing when to draw a line, and where to protect yourself.

And that whole “Ozai pitted them against each other” argument doesn’t really hold up either, because it was never mutual. Azula wasn’t some passive participant in the rivalry, she was the one consistently beating him down. Zuko didn’t compete with her; he defended himself from her. Literally at no point was this a mutual or equal thing in any way.   So no, she’s not just a victim in the story. She’s a victim of her father, yes. Of the system she was raised in, yes. But to Zuko? She was a villain. And objectively, she was far worse to him than he ever was to her.

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"I Miss the Misery" is basically Faith's anthem about Buffy, if you can overlook that she's totally lying about not missing her. And what could be more Faith than incompetently lying about something in way that's somehow more exposing than being honest (and then having the Scoobies fail to see through it anyway)?

I miss the bad things, the way you hate me I miss the screaming, the way that you blame me

I miss the rough sex, leaves me a mess I miss the feeling of pains in my chest Miss the phone calls when it's your fault I miss the late nights, don't miss you at all

I like that kick in the face And the things you do to me I love the way that it hurts I don't miss you, I miss the misery

obsessed with you for using the term "butt rock". we out here old af. also omg pls faith listens to nickelback? faith sits in her truck with the headlights off before she comes inside at night and jams out to "this is how you remind me"? thanks i fuckin hate it (love my sweet white trash baby angel).

"how you remind me" #1 Faith Lehane ANTHEM. That shit is so fucking deep to her, actually. Sincerely and genuinely moved by Chad Kroeger's lyricism

Also it's very lucky for her and everyone that the worst of her spiral was well over by the time the first few Breaking Benjamin records came out, "animal in have become" and "I hate everything about you" would have completely unraveled her pre-rehabilitation

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In my brain, the Dangerous Ladies are Sandi, Stacey, and Tiffany (there is no Quinn). Because Stacey's sycophantic flattery maps perfectly onto Ty Lee, and Tiffany's vocal fry would be so on-brand for Mai.

Yeah, I'm fucking old.

Mai and Ty Lee are a pair of mean girls, even without Azula.

Azula, due to her trauma, using fear as a method of control for Mai and Ty Lee. There is an unspoken rule of, go against Azula, face the consequences. So they make Azula take the lead, make the plans but they enjoy doing it.

Like Azula destroying that kid's sandcastle, Ty Lee is grinning while Azula does it. The only reason Ty Lee didn't do it herself is because Azula is Queen Bee. Her and Mai loooooovvvveeee destroying Chan's house. Mai is a little bit of a sadist, happy to be part of Azula's squad to escape boredom. Ty Lee also agrees with Azula that the three of them should be worshipped. Ty Lee is cackling when her and Azula prank Mai and Zuko.

Don't tell me they were just pretending, ATLA is as subtle as a llama doing the Macarena in a tutu. That's not a criticism, it's just the truth. If they were just pretending to enjoy being bullies, we would know explicitly.

Mai and Ty Lee are a pair of mean girls and I LOVE it.

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Massive slam on Guru Pathik out of nowhere!

But yeah, that guy sucks and totally deserved the above hate.

I will defend pretty much anyone or anything in the atla universe. Whether that's plot holes, character flaws, or inconsistencies, you can trust me to be the one with an explanation and defense. Except for one thing.

The fucking Guru. I hate that guy. I hate that guy with every flickering cell in my body. The depth of my disdain for that stupid fucking hack is unprecedented. I don't even have the words to properly drscribe what an absolute crime it is that he breathes air. Get the fuck out of the air temples bitch, you don't belong there. Not when you're going to look the last remaining air nomad in the eye who is, by the way, TWELVE, and tell him to just dismiss all the trauma and shit and then tell him he can't have earthly attatchments because he's the Avatar even though being the Avatar literally prevents air nomad avatars from achieving enlightenment BECAUSE they have to have earthly attatchments and also NO OTHER AVATAR HAD TO DO THIS and also you DON'T EXPLAIN TO THE GODAMN TWELVE YEAR OLD WHAT LETTING GO OF AN ATTACHMENT EVEN MEANS YOU JUST IMPLY HE CAN'T HAVE PEOPLE HE LOVES IN HIS LIFE LIKE FUCK RIGHT THE FUCK OFF BITCH, HE. IS. TWELVE. STOP GIVING HIM 'HOW TO GIVE YOURSELF A MENTAL ILLNESS TEN YEARS DOWN THE ROAD' STARTER PACKS JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK IT'D BE MORE CONVENIENT FOR HIM TO MASTER THE AVATAR STATE EARLIER THAN HE SHOULD. THE GURU IS JUST AS BAD AS GENERAL FONG AND MORE.

YOU SENT THE CHILD TO HIS DEATH GURU PATHIK, ARE YOU HAPPY NOW? DID IT PAY OFF? TRYING TO CHEAT THE PROPER LEARNING CYCLE OF THE AVATAR? THE THING THAT HAS FAILED AND HAD CONSEQUENCES AGAIN AND AGAIN? WERE YOU PROUD LEARNING THE TWELVE YEAR OLD AVATAR WAS STRUCK DOWN DURING HIS FIRST ILL ADVISED ATTEMPT AT ENTERING THE AVATAR STATE AT WILL? I HOPE THE GURU DIED WITH SHAME IN HIS HEART. I HOPE HE NEVER LEARNED AANG ACTUALLY LIVED. I HOPE HE UNDERSTOOD HIS VILE CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE WORLD AND TOOK THAT GUILT TO THE GRAVE.

anyway, atla is a good show, and some of yall criticize small things way too harshly

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I legit had not noticed this, and I love it. I've long been pretty critical of the S3 writing because of the gap between what the narrative tells us (Zuko has let go of / mastered his anger!) and what the actual script shows us (Zuko still takes out his anger on everyone!).

But this detail and the way Zuko moves while firebending really helps to close some of that gap.

zuko used to grunt whenever he was firebending

but post-redemption or idk he doesn't because his firebending isn't coming from a place of anger anymore

that's it i'm going to go cry in a corner. (happy tears of course because he's finding inner peace)

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This is so well said.

(It's also why I rate Season 1 so highly.)

Screaming and crying whenever I think abt Buffy Summers as the living weapon trope. Buffy desperately trying to keep hold of her personhood that was stripped from her at age fifteen. Spending the first three seasons intensely trying to balance being a cosmic weapon with being a girl. And then the cruciamentum being her lesson that no matter what, she will never be a person to the same extent as her friends and family. That when all is said and done, even Giles, the man who she loves like a Father, sees her as nothing more than a weapon to be tested. I am so ill abt baby Buffy and her desperation to be a person.

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Yeah, that’s what I meant about being undersold. It’s not just that she has way better results against mooks, I’m pretty sure she has better moves and is much more creative against them, too. But instead of ramping UP for named foes and revealing new variations of her powers, she gets ramped down. My guess is that it’s an outcome-driven thing where she lacks narrative weight, kind of like how Azula suddenly sucks whenever she fights Katara.

Given how much Toph struggles with Aang the one time they fight, and given how Azula is the closest person stylistically to Aang, I really think if Toph and Azula had a fair battle, Azula would kick Toph's ass.