neiviele

[neiviele]

what do you think is the most important thing/trait to have when you syscourse?

Patience.

Ability to step back, process your feelings and separate your immediate feelings from your own opinion and facts you can operate with.

Self-awareness.

Ability to accept you can be wrong.

And ability to leave the conversation when it's pointless and more energy draining than worthy of your time.

[neiviele]

in terms of system spaces and assumptions,

we all really gotta work on the assumption that every system you meet is white.

are there racist systems out there? absolutely

however.

ive seen so many systems of color get jumped because others assumed that they were white and decided to interrogate them.

and frankly, i don't really think a system of color should have to pull out a badge of sorts to prove that they're not white.

like, there's always a way to work against racism than to assume that every system you meet is white. you should absolutely work against that assumption, it's inherently harmful.

in short: quit assuming racist shit in your attempt to be anti racist, there's other ways to go about it.

[neiviele]

My personal utopia is one where tulpamancy spreads far and wide, and people realize they can get the same psychological benefits from tulpamancy they can from God, destroying the next generation of evangelical churches through multiplicity.

-From SophieinWonderland

I think I see the problem? Even if you could make every child in the world plural, even if you could target every fundamentalist group in the world, you still would not get rid of the church. There will always be people looking to impose their religion upon others or exclude people, and you just might make tulpamancer MAGA supporters than you would liberal churchgoers.

Also while tulpamancy is often compared to God(s), I find that ontologically they seem very different. You wouldn't be able to replace God with tulpamancy because tulpamancy doesn't always function the same way as having a God does, and definitely not the same as the Christian God.

[neiviele]

I think Sophie is imagining a world where everyone is a tulpamancer or plural and everyone's getting along and the whole world's left-leaning, but what I think might actually happen:

Some people start freaking out about the dangers of tulpamancy; other people think "wtf are you on about"

Jaystation-esque videos where people try to dramatically impose their tulpas (they start meditating and then start screaming, going "oh my God I see it I see it")

Tulpamancy gone wrong (gone sexual) click bait videos

Outright discrimination of some people due to acting suspiciously plural

School fights where kids pit their headmates against each other

"yo man send Bakugo over to my system for a moment, I need him to help me pass this test" "that's not how it works" "yeah it is"

Articles reassuring parents that tulpamancy is a harmless form of roleplay that means nothing more

Psychologists touting the benefits of tulpamancy to skeptical onlookers

"Do you need tulpamancy to get ahead in the workforce? Ten reasons why having an alter ego can boost production in the workforce"

"Why tulpamancy is modern day demonic possession"

Tulpamancers invited to news programs and talk shows to talk about their experiences

Conservative tulpamancers who are pro-tulpa but anti-everything else

Or at least we're going to be heading there on the way to the pro-tulpa plural-positive utopia

[neiviele]

V - While discussing endogenic validity on soulbond twitter, I found something. While I kept pushing for the validity of endogenic systems, my opponent kept bringing up disordered sources. I didn’t really understand at first because why bring up DID when I already said that non disordered systems are the focus of the argument, but now I get it.

Anti endo rhetoric comes from absolute ableism, not just towards endo systems, but towards DID systems too. They believe that systems are all broken, lesser than people, to them we are “people” that are too shattered by trauma to have our own autonomy on our existence. The only thing that can break someone into a system is trauma, in their eyes. This is why it’s impossible to use endogenic sources against an anti endo argument. You cannot argue that non disordered plurality exist, when to them being a system at all is broken, disgusting, wrong, not natural, not normal and thus disordered. If you are a system, you are broken, and the only thing that could have broke you is trauma.

They will not let you define yourself because they don’t feel that you have that right, systems are too delusional, not even people, just traumatized parts of a broken mind. We’re too damaged, and endos are not damaged and therefore are not systems because to be a system is to be broken and in need of fixing.

And this brings in psychiatry as an issue, that it labels any divergence from the norm, from what will benefit the workforce, as broken and something that needs a cure. That’s why anti endos will exist as long as there is psychiatry.

[neiviele]

I've just realized "non-disordered plurality" contains a double negative.

From now on I'm calling it "ordered plurality" because it's shorter

[neiviele]

i think the black and white thinking of the system community, especially around taboo topics involving trauma and such, is one of the main reasons why systems become radqueers.

here's an example: let's say there's a system, jimbob system. and they desire to have more trauma.

this is a perfectly normal thing to desire, even though the concept of that desire is taboo. it's common especially among trauma survivors who were manipulated into believing their trauma wasn't that bad.

there's group A, the average system community. if the jimbob system voices how they feel, the jimbob system is likely to be met with hostility and social ostracization. if not downright fakeclaiming the jimbob system.

then there's group B, the radqueers. radqueers pride themselves on radical acceptance. so, if jimbob system tells such desires to the radqueers, those radqueers are likely to accept jimbob system with open arms and no questions asked. they might even suggest the label of "transtrauma" a label where it can be used to conveniently find other people who feel like the jimbob system.

now let's say the jimbob system encounters group A first, and then group B. group B, the radqueers, are more than willing to provide comfort and share their own stories of social ostracization. they bond with jimbob system and do not judge jimbob system.

and again, please remember that wanting trauma is a very normal response in a lot of trauma survivors.

the point of this post is to directly criticize the system community, absolutely. the way i've seen systems handle these taboo topics, i really don't agree with. i do believe that how it's currently handled leads people to becoming radqueers. everyone desires social acceptance, especially social acceptance of such vulnerable things.

i could go on about how for the jimbob system, they could be manipulated into doing worse things. but that's more focused on radqueers, and i'm criticizing the system community right now.

in conclusion: the way the system community handles taboo topics is done very poorly and leads to people seeking acceptance from risky groups. i think there should be change in how the system community handles taboo topics, such as wanting more trauma.

[neiviele]

The edit is better, thank you. I've already had to deal with this from multiple people (One even tried a "I have BPD and think it is okay" route as if that means anything here), so it is frustrating.

Ah, I see. Sorry for contributing to that 😅 hopefully it won't happen again!

My thing about Trump supporters deserving some sort of punishment, is that they're likely already getting that punishment just because of who they voted for. Metaphorically, Trump supporters and Democrats are living in a house together and we had a choice of having chickens attack us or a powerful hurricane, and they picked the hurricane, which is going to hurt them possibly more than us, those who prepared for the hurricane. A lot of them are starting to wake up and realize this wasn't what they voted for.

However, on a deeper note, a lot of the psychology of Trump supporters is systemic and caused by societal issues, instead of them just being evil. Some aren't that smart - that's a failure of our school system. Some are highly authoritarian - that's the fault of a society which teaches kids to obey instead of question others. Some are highly paranoid - that's a result of the government and authority figures losing trust with its people. And yes, a lot of them may be antisocial, a consequence of a society which values money and hurting people over kindness and empathy. They weren't born evil, and a lot of them are essentially victims of a failing system, creating a feedback loop where they vote for things to get worse out of their own ignorance.

The best way to fix this problem isn't by fighting fire with fire (though I'm aware there are individual cases in which this will have to be done) but by trying to educate them, support them when they realize they've done wrong, and working together to stop this crisis. They're just the voters, not the guy doing the damage. Remember, this guy loves the poorly educated, and it's not just because they're hardworking.

(And this isn't to suggest that we roll over or concede to any inappropriate behavior. Rather, we fight where we can while also trying to draw out their humanity. People can change sides.)

Also remember there isn't a clear divide between "evil white cishet MAGA supporter" and "good POC queer Democrat" - there are minorities in the Trump camp.

...Or we could go to war and fight everyone, but that costs more lives.

[neiviele]

How's the edit I made in the original?

And it could have been any example? I don't think it changed the results to use autism instead of something else. I was always taking it seriously, even if I couldn't put words together right.

My thing about Trump supporters deserving some sort of punishment, is that they're likely already getting that punishment just because of who they voted for. Metaphorically, Trump supporters and Democrats are living in a house together and we had a choice of having chickens attack us or a powerful hurricane, and they picked the hurricane, which is going to hurt them possibly more than us, those who prepared for the hurricane. A lot of them are starting to wake up and realize this wasn't what they voted for.

However, on a deeper note, a lot of the psychology of Trump supporters is systemic and caused by societal issues, instead of them just being evil. Some aren't that smart - that's a failure of our school system. Some are highly authoritarian - that's the fault of a society which teaches kids to obey instead of question others. Some are highly paranoid - that's a result of the government and authority figures losing trust with its people. And yes, a lot of them may be antisocial, a consequence of a society which values money and hurting people over kindness and empathy. They weren't born evil, and a lot of them are essentially victims of a failing system, creating a feedback loop where they vote for things to get worse out of their own ignorance.

The best way to fix this problem isn't by fighting fire with fire (though I'm aware there are individual cases in which this will have to be done) but by trying to educate them, support them when they realize they've done wrong, and working together to stop this crisis. They're just the voters, not the guy doing the damage. Remember, this guy loves the poorly educated, and it's not just because they're hardworking.

(And this isn't to suggest that we roll over or concede to any inappropriate behavior. Rather, we fight where we can while also trying to draw out their humanity. People can change sides.)

Also remember there isn't a clear divide between "evil white cishet MAGA supporter" and "good POC queer Democrat" - there are minorities in the Trump camp.

...Or we could go to war and fight everyone, but that costs more lives.

[neiviele]

What you are doing with your wording is the equivalent to when some alt right asshole says that leftists are more likely to be autistic and links to a study about missing social cues and having learning disabilities being more common for leftists. It uses "autistic" in that statement as a derogatory term to be ableist, even if backed up by a study. Using "antisocial" which is a term specifically extremely linked to ASPD and a study about psychopathy being more common in republicans is going to further the ASPD stigma, no matter if you intentionally do so or not. It does not matter if you intended to be ableist in language use, because many people are without knowing it and the ableism we are always around influences how we use language. I've already had to explain to multiple people how your wording and tactic of insisting that republicans are antisocial (based on claims they are more likely to experience ASPD or at the very least ASPD traits in the study you linked) is not a neutral descriptor because of the context. You can use the terms selfish, self-serving, cruel, etc, to describe people- you don't need antisocial to talk about harmful behaviors that are not specific to ASPD when the connotation people give it is always back to ASPD. That's just moralizing the state of having ASPD as evil.

Would you like me to change the wording, then? To "selfish, self-serving, cruel" and/or remove the study?

My thing about Trump supporters deserving some sort of punishment, is that they're likely already getting that punishment just because of who they voted for. Metaphorically, Trump supporters and Democrats are living in a house together and we had a choice of having chickens attack us or a powerful hurricane, and they picked the hurricane, which is going to hurt them possibly more than us, those who prepared for the hurricane. A lot of them are starting to wake up and realize this wasn't what they voted for.

However, on a deeper note, a lot of the psychology of Trump supporters is systemic and caused by societal issues, instead of them just being evil. Some aren't that smart - that's a failure of our school system. Some are highly authoritarian - that's the fault of a society which teaches kids to obey instead of question others. Some are highly paranoid - that's a result of the government and authority figures losing trust with its people. And yes, a lot of them may be antisocial, a consequence of a society which values money and hurting people over kindness and empathy. They weren't born evil, and a lot of them are essentially victims of a failing system, creating a feedback loop where they vote for things to get worse out of their own ignorance.

The best way to fix this problem isn't by fighting fire with fire (though I'm aware there are individual cases in which this will have to be done) but by trying to educate them, support them when they realize they've done wrong, and working together to stop this crisis. They're just the voters, not the guy doing the damage. Remember, this guy loves the poorly educated, and it's not just because they're hardworking.

(And this isn't to suggest that we roll over or concede to any inappropriate behavior. Rather, we fight where we can while also trying to draw out their humanity. People can change sides.)

Also remember there isn't a clear divide between "evil white cishet MAGA supporter" and "good POC queer Democrat" - there are minorities in the Trump camp.

...Or we could go to war and fight everyone, but that costs more lives.

[neiviele]

What you're doing here doesn't actually defend pwASPD from her by assigning harmful behavior to a specific disorder as if that makes it more understandable. That only tells her that she is entirely justified to hate anyone she considers antisocial, because those traits are proven to her as inherently evil.

Thing is, people already do that. You see people saying that Trump must be a psychopath, then someone will correct them and say, "actually the correct term is ASPD!" And they'll take away that Trump really has ASPD. Some people will notice the callousness and cruelness of his supporters, some will theorize they have psychopathy or sociopathy, people will go "actually it's ASPD now!" And they'll take away that the supporters have ASPD.

I didn't mention antisocial personality disorder, just antisocial. Same way I didn't mention any of the other disorders associated with paranoia or authoritarianism. But in any case I'm literally saying they're not born that way, and hurting them or despising them is not going to help anything, if the behavior is an issue. It's a societal problem, not an individual one.

In our experience, transactionality, lack of empathy, and being cruel are by far more common with prosocials than antisocials, it is just normalized and accepted to a higher degree unless you get the antisocial label slapped on you. Then you're considered a lost cause.

Imo, not really? Sure prosocials may show that behavior, but I usually hear people talking about how empathy is important and if you do do something cruel, it's expected that you feel guilty or remorse for it, that it's not entirely self serving, etc. Violating those norms even without a label gets you treated very poorly.

(Unless you're in the corporate world, in which case people tend to glamorize it as a quality people should have. But non-corporate people will still condemn those traits.)

What would be actually better is not attaching this behavior to any disorder, because it isn't specific to it. Autistics with a lack of empathy aren't going to come under the same amount of scorn from her as antisocials are because of how ASPD ableism is focused on making us inherent monsters and much of autism ableism is focused on infantilization.

You're right that the behavior isn't specific to it, but again there are issues stemming from other people assigning ASPD to this behavior. If it's not addressed (like let's say I said they were "mean, cruel and callous") some people are going to take away that there's mean cruel and callous people that can be changed, and that antisocial people are something else that are born that way and can't be helped. Or they might go the opposite and assume that I'm talking about antisocial personality disorder regardless. And then studies on this behavior always measure it as psychopathy or machiavellianism anyway, all leading back to whether it should be called ASPD.

The way Sophie's talking, she's focusing heavily on them being mean, cruel, unsympathetic, lacking empathy, and being self-serving. Not being racist, bigoted, greedy, narrow-minded, misguided or anxious, but specifically those traits which as a set people tend to associate with antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy.

I could absolutely be reading too much into her words though, as I don't believe in true evil and see it as subtext for deeper issues.

Playing into her focus on ASPD serves no one, and especially not the people who take your post at face value and don't question why you bring up ASPD or know better. There is a specific strain of PD stigma that is "Bigots are inherently pwNPD/ASPD, so anyone with those disorders must be a bigot or on the road to becoming one." Perpetuating that even unintentionally does not help us with that stigma.

The post is in the syscourse and sophiecourse tag, it's not just a random post and I do start off as if there was a prior topic I was addressing. I also don't expect the post to go very far. But I'm not trying to say that, and I don't think my wording implied that?

My thing about Trump supporters deserving some sort of punishment, is that they're likely already getting that punishment just because of who they voted for. Metaphorically, Trump supporters and Democrats are living in a house together and we had a choice of having chickens attack us or a powerful hurricane, and they picked the hurricane, which is going to hurt them possibly more than us, those who prepared for the hurricane. A lot of them are starting to wake up and realize this wasn't what they voted for.

However, on a deeper note, a lot of the psychology of Trump supporters is systemic and caused by societal issues, instead of them just being evil. Some aren't that smart - that's a failure of our school system. Some are highly authoritarian - that's the fault of a society which teaches kids to obey instead of question others. Some are highly paranoid - that's a result of the government and authority figures losing trust with its people. And yes, a lot of them may be antisocial, a consequence of a society which values money and hurting people over kindness and empathy. They weren't born evil, and a lot of them are essentially victims of a failing system, creating a feedback loop where they vote for things to get worse out of their own ignorance.

The best way to fix this problem isn't by fighting fire with fire (though I'm aware there are individual cases in which this will have to be done) but by trying to educate them, support them when they realize they've done wrong, and working together to stop this crisis. They're just the voters, not the guy doing the damage. Remember, this guy loves the poorly educated, and it's not just because they're hardworking.

(And this isn't to suggest that we roll over or concede to any inappropriate behavior. Rather, we fight where we can while also trying to draw out their humanity. People can change sides.)

Also remember there isn't a clear divide between "evil white cishet MAGA supporter" and "good POC queer Democrat" - there are minorities in the Trump camp.

...Or we could go to war and fight everyone, but that costs more lives.

[neiviele]

Everything Sophie is saying they are is reading to me as hidden subtext to hating antisocial individuals, since some can come across like that. (Focusing only on themselves, having no empathy for others, being mean.) And studies lump those behaviors under antisocial personality disorder, or psychopathy in some cases.

A lot of antisocial behaviors come from an abusive relationship with power, and that is more likely where it comes from, not just "Oh idk but this pretty trauma-creating political side produces more severely traumatized people who stay on that side."

I never said any of that.

People with ASPD aren't evil either. There are ways to live healthily as antisocial and manage symptoms. The focus should be less on them being antisocial, and more the fact that republican politics do not provide room for healing from trauma that stems from people holding power over you.

Nor that.

I'm saying that you can't attempt to mistreat "evil" people or enact revenge on them to fix any issues that they may have created. Sophie has been insinuating that if someone is antisocial or displaying antisocial traits in the context of being Republican, they're pure evil and probably deserve suffering. I'm saying they don't.

My thing about Trump supporters deserving some sort of punishment, is that they're likely already getting that punishment just because of who they voted for. Metaphorically, Trump supporters and Democrats are living in a house together and we had a choice of having chickens attack us or a powerful hurricane, and they picked the hurricane, which is going to hurt them possibly more than us, those who prepared for the hurricane. A lot of them are starting to wake up and realize this wasn't what they voted for.

However, on a deeper note, a lot of the psychology of Trump supporters is systemic and caused by societal issues, instead of them just being evil. Some aren't that smart - that's a failure of our school system. Some are highly authoritarian - that's the fault of a society which teaches kids to obey instead of question others. Some are highly paranoid - that's a result of the government and authority figures losing trust with its people. And yes, a lot of them may be antisocial, a consequence of a society which values money and hurting people over kindness and empathy. They weren't born evil, and a lot of them are essentially victims of a failing system, creating a feedback loop where they vote for things to get worse out of their own ignorance.

The best way to fix this problem isn't by fighting fire with fire (though I'm aware there are individual cases in which this will have to be done) but by trying to educate them, support them when they realize they've done wrong, and working together to stop this crisis. They're just the voters, not the guy doing the damage. Remember, this guy loves the poorly educated, and it's not just because they're hardworking.

(And this isn't to suggest that we roll over or concede to any inappropriate behavior. Rather, we fight where we can while also trying to draw out their humanity. People can change sides.)

Also remember there isn't a clear divide between "evil white cishet MAGA supporter" and "good POC queer Democrat" - there are minorities in the Trump camp.

...Or we could go to war and fight everyone, but that costs more lives.

[neiviele]

My thing about Trump supporters deserving some sort of punishment, is that they're likely already getting that punishment just because of who they voted for. Metaphorically, Trump supporters and Democrats are living in a house together and we had a choice of having chickens attack us or a powerful hurricane, and they picked the hurricane, which is going to hurt them possibly more than us, those who prepared for the hurricane. A lot of them are starting to wake up and realize this wasn't what they voted for.

However, on a deeper note, a lot of the psychology of Trump supporters is systemic and caused by societal issues, instead of them just being evil. Some aren't that smart - that's a failure of our school system. Some are highly authoritarian - that's the fault of a society which teaches kids to obey instead of question others. Some are highly paranoid - that's a result of the government and authority figures losing trust with its people. And yes, some of them may display crueltly, callousness and selfishness, a consequence of a society which values money and hurting people over kindness and selfless actions. They weren't born "evil" (people are multidimensional and vote for politicians for a variety of reasons, people aren't evil for doing so) and a lot of them are essentially victims of a failing system, creating a feedback loop where they vote for things to get worse out of their own ignorance.

The best way to fix this problem isn't by fighting fire with fire (though I'm aware there are individual cases in which this will have to be done) but by trying to educate them, support them when they realize they've done wrong, and working together to stop this crisis. They're just the voters, not the guy doing the damage. Remember, this guy loves the poorly educated, and it's not just because they're hardworking.

(And this isn't to suggest that we roll over or concede to any inappropriate behavior. Rather, we fight where we can while also trying to draw out their humanity. People can change sides.)

Also remember there isn't a clear divide between "evil white cishet MAGA supporter" and "good POC queer Democrat" - there are minorities in the Trump camp.

...Or we could go to war and fight everyone, but that costs more lives.

[neiviele]

Tbh, I think the cult accusations would be because tulpamancy isn't a religion, and is trying to stay objective. You can't have a doctrine of tulpamancy without getting into cult territory, and since you're making sentient people (which could very well be DID/OSDD systems, judging by the way some later turn out to be) you would have to deal with the possibility of awakening systems in unstable circumstances or who didn't want to find out at all. Also since the rest of the tulpamancy community doesn't function like that most of the community would see whoever's indoctrinating others as rogue and not representative of the community.

Basically, if you're proselytizing tulpamancy people will expect you to have a religion that goes with it, or some kind of organization. If you don't, then what are you proselytizing for?

If there was a church of plurality though, that might be looked over though, especially if it was willing to allow outsiders in via tulpamancy. Just have a doctrine that goes with it and you're set.

But in a way that's the plural community already, just without the proselytizing.

Double standards are a funny thing. When Ghost was going to pick his brother up at school a few weeks ago, there were a couple people offering free pocket Bibles standing on either side of the street right outside of the school.

Specifically to corner any kids who would be walking home.

This is normal. It's normal for one group to be able to do this.

If we stood on the road outside the school offering free pocket tulpamancy guides to kids, would we be accused of being groomers? Would we be labeled as a cult?

It's funny how we treat identical tactics differently based on who it who is using them.

[neiviele]

it was all fun and games with the anti willo anon, now let it die. radendo isn't a thing. the only meaning it - vaguely - has is in italian. in which it's a gerund form of a verb and it has no standalone meaning.

give yourself a rest y'all. do something fun. block and move on or make some shitty blackout memes now. anything that doesn't give them a way to make their words be heard anywhere

[neiviele]

"Reclaim radendo"

Even if you're using it because it's different than pro-endo, do you really want to use a term that hearkens back to the radqueer community? A community known for harboring pro-contact harmful paraphiles and generally sketchy people? Because that's what the anon was trying to do. Link pro-endo beliefs, willogenic and protogenic systems to the radqueer community. The "rad" is there for a reason. People are going to see you as dangerous and as a part of a group of harmful paraphiles, not as a helpful community member.

[neiviele]

i provide: sysidecourse, a side syscourse tag that does directly talk about syscourse, but side discussions of it (such as fatphobia, and intersexism in systems!)