pessimisticpigeonsworld

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I feel like the people who are obsessed with the idea that Dany will inevitably become crazy and evil are the same people who always headcanon that Jason Todd is the "dumb/violent Robin". Both are classist takes and are supported only by shitty writing and illiteracy.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I don't understand why Elia stans are always so offended that people like Lyanna or that she's "more popular". Like these people are the same ones who spout the same feminist bs like "we shouldn't pit women against each other🥺." While forcing a massive competition between Elia and Lyanna.

I don't know any Lyanna stans who shit on Elia or say she deserved to die. I have seen almost every Elia stan hardcore hate Lyanna. Whether it's for "stealing Rhaegar" or starting Robert's rebellion, Lyanna is demonized constantly by that part of the fandom. Meanwhile the same part bitches and moans about how unappreciated Elia is and how unfairly the fandom treats her. Something I have yet to see btw.

Of course Lyanna is going to be popular and well liked, of course she's going to be talked about more often. She's a vital character to the ASOIAF story, despite being long dead. She also stands out by being non-conforming and willful.

We know so much about her character: her personality and values are very plainly portrayed in Ned's thoughts and Bran's visions. Lyanna is a character we the readers have come to know very well and her presence is felt in most of the primary characters' stories.

Elia simply isn't as fleshed out or central to the story as Lyanna is. Yes, of course she's still important and good. We just don't know her as well. We're told very little about her and I don't think that's going to change now that Oberyn is dead and Doran is pretty close behind.

I'm not saying she's a bad character or anything like that, she's just more of a side character than Lyanna is. Her primary contribution in the story is to show the Lannisters' (and Robert's) brutality and injustice and to be Rhaegar's wife/Aegon and Rhaenys' mother. That's just how it is.

Yes, it would be great to know more about her and it's a massive tragedy and injustice what happened to her and her children. However, expecting her, a side character who's kept relatively obscure by the books, to be equally or more popular than one of the most important characters from the preASOIAF time is ridiculous.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Something I can't get over in this fandom is how Dany is hated and demonized for not being attracted to a man. Specifically I'm talking about Quentyn Martell.

Now, I don't hate Quentyn or the Martells, just some of their stans. However, I think it's pretty wild how a woman is being hated for not immediately falling in love with a man who came to her expecting marriage.

Like, not only is Dany literally about to marry another man for the sake of her people, but she is also in the middle of trying to reform a society built on centuries of slavery. My girl has a fucking million things that are more important at the moment than another suitor. She has made her priorities clear; Quentyn and Westeros are just not very high on that list.

I feel like it's really common joke on the internet to joke about men who act entitled to a woman. I think that's why this is so baffling to me. Dany is literally a queen, she has the right and ability to marry whom she chooses, and we the readers should want her to have that freedom. She's already been forced to marry twice, why are we wanting her to marry a stranger based on a pact no one else even knows about?

I'm not even going to waste time refuting the argument that Dany was being racist. Just thinking about that makes me want to roll my eyes out of my head. It's one of the dumbest and most malicious misreadings of a book I've seen.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I've noticed an uptick in pro-Mirri posts lately and it really just shows how unwilling this fandom is to extend any grace to Dany. Like people will jump through all these hoops and do so much mental gymnastics to justify a woman who forced an miscarriage on a 14 year old. But everything Dany does is scrutinized to hell and always painted in an absurdly bad light.

Like I do think Mirri is to be sympathized with obviously, but not to the extent Dany antis do. I literally saw someone compare her choice to kill Rhaego to killing baby Hitler. Now that's an interesting comparison, and it's really not the same at all.

Dany suffered rather similarly to Mirri, but she is never given any understanding for her actions. All her actions are twisted and her inherent goodness and kindness are ignored in favor of painting her as mad or monstrous.

The hypocrisy and blatant two-facedness just really shows how baseless the Dany hate is.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I know, I know. Some of you will just be pissed off by this, as you are by everything I announce here that is not about Westeros or THE WINDS OF WINTER. You have given up on me, or on the book. I will never finish WINDS, If I do, I will never finish A DREAM OF SPRING. If I do, it won’t be any good. I ought to get some other writer to pinch hit for me… I am going to die soon anyway, because I am so old. I lost all interest in A Song of Ice and Fire decades ago. I don’t give a shit about writing any longer, I just sit around and spend my money. I edit the Wild Cards books too, but you hate Wild Cards. You may hate everything else I have ever written, the Hugo-winners and Hugo-losers, “A Song for Lya” and DYING OF THE LIGHT, “Sandkings” and BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, “This Tower of Ashes” and “The Stone City,” OLD MARS and OLD VENUS and ROGUES and WARRIORS and DANGEROUS WOMEN and all the other anthologies I edited with my friend Gardner Dozois, You don’t care about any of those, I know. You don’t care about anything but WINDS OF WINTER. You’ve told me so often enough). Thing is, I do care about them. And I care about Westeros and WINDS as well. The Starks and Lannisters and Targaryens, Tyrion and Asha, Dany and Daenerys, the dragons and the direwolves, I care about them all. More than you can ever imagine.

[Source]

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Something I can't get over in this fandom is how Dany is hated and demonized for not being attracted to a man. Specifically I'm talking about Quentyn Martell.

Now, I don't hate Quentyn or the Martells, just some of their stans. However, I think it's pretty wild how a woman is being hated for not immediately falling in love with a man who came to her expecting marriage.

Like, not only is Dany literally about to marry another man for the sake of her people, but she is also in the middle of trying to reform a society built on centuries of slavery. My girl has a fucking million things that are more important at the moment than another suitor. She has made her priorities clear; Quentyn and Westeros are just not very high on that list.

I feel like it's really common joke on the internet to joke about men who act entitled to a woman. I think that's why this is so baffling to me. Dany is literally a queen, she has the right and ability to marry whom she chooses, and we the readers should want her to have that freedom. She's already been forced to marry twice, why are we wanting her to marry a stranger based on a pact no one else even knows about?

I'm not even going to waste time refuting the argument that Dany was being racist. Just thinking about that makes me want to roll my eyes out of my head. It's one of the dumbest and most malicious misreadings of a book I've seen.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I came across a greenie complaining that TB only ever talk about the same thing over and over. I think that's pretty funny coming from the side that only ever talks about how Rhaenyra's a whore and Daemon's a monster.

Like the only time they got a little variety was when GRRM's deleted blog posts came out. And even then, they just threw in "GRRM agrees with me" to the same old phrases (which isn't even what the blog was saying).

The only reason TB arguments seem repetitive are because greenies talk about the same shit over and over. If we're arguing with the same ideas, we're going to use the same defenses because they're true. It's just circular reasoning and it's the most juvenile argument, but what can we expect from them?

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

when you think about it, it's really something that Game of Thrones took the woman that was fighting to end the current structures of power and injustices of the world and saving all the oppresed and decided to transform her into a villain compared to Satan (like, she is outright called Her Satanic Majesty in the Season 8's script) who without any reason ends up burning half a million of innocent people instead of outright targetting the one person responsible for all her misery, and then is murdered by poor crying man who swore he loved her but knows what is best

Putting aside all the HUGE problems with all of the writing, I just find it fascinating. How the end of Game of Thrones is the restoration of the status quo. The council talking about repairing and opening brothels. How the Starks, yes, despite all their suffering during the series, still remain in power at the end of everything, despite being as bad or worse than the Targaryen, not even acknowledging their sins and how much their legacy and position was built through blood war genocide and conquest, how it was the First Men who, in the TV series continuity, caused the creation of the White Walkers

Like. Of course Daenerys had to be villanized. She was too dangerous. Her ideas couldn't be tolerated. What the world needed was... to keep the status quo that benefits and oppresses the same people again and again. The best the latter can get is a little time of liberation before the rest of the world, leaded and convinced by the same powerful classes, determine you got too much and you don't get to exist or to live anymore. Isn't that what we have been watching for the last years? How everything we thought was gained has been taken and is still being taken from us, so casually? Our right to decide, to feel, to live and exist? How the supposed "mercy" is just a lie until they get tired of pretending and show they had not changed at all?

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Bitchass asoiaf fans when YG throws a tantrum over a game: " it's normal for a teen boy to crash out😃and be rude"

Bitchass asoiaf fans if dany did that:" look at this mad bitch she was waiting to show her true colors yay mad qween signs theory when she is uncontrollable this is why female leaders shouldn't rule here is my meta on why dany was always a demon in disguise🤪"

But sure do tell me how that blue dye loser is just oh so much better than jon and Dany and stfu about " omg he is so tragic uwu he gonna dye by jealous dany's hands uwu too bad" that mfer never suffered a single tragedy or any remote inconvenience in his life. Dany has been beaten raped abused starved and a lot more but sure " DaNy cAnT uNdErsTaNd sUfFerInG oF hEr pEoPLe" Young Griff is literally an example of misogynistic mfers of this fandom stanning a character just cuz they believe in his " untapped potential as a leader" cuz he is a boy. Give a girl the same story as him NO ONE WILL EVER TAKE HER SERIOUS AND WILL CALL HER DELUSIONAL bffr

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Hey, hope you don't mind, but would you check the comments under this post?

https://www.tumblr.com/silverflameataraxia/756545339732951040/sansa-and-jeyne-are-the-only-people-to-call-arya?source=share

I wanted to tag you but I felt like that was too much since we aren't close...

Anyways, much love, drink water💕

Hey! I'm sorry but it looks like the commenter deleted what they said 😬 However! Based on what you replied to them, I think I understand what they were saying.

I hate hate hate when the stansas excuse Sansa's bullying of Arya as "just being a sibling thing", as if that somehow makes it ok. Just because something is common/normalized doesn't mean it's fine or not wrong.

Like, I have older sisters, and while the bullying I experienced was fairly minor compared to Arya's, it still severely affected me and my self image. Arya is literally unable to accept the idea that she could be beautiful or even just not ugly. That's the kind of thinking that comes from years of constant belittling and discouragement.

Excusing this kind of treatment as "just sibling things" is exactly like excusing sexual harassment as "boys will be boys". They're both harmful; meant to protect the perpetrator and undermine the victim. It's fucking ridiculous.

Arya is a child, her brain is a sponge and anything that's reinforced to her will be internalized in one way or another. Yes, the adults in her life are guilty for allowing and even encouraging Sansa's behavior. Yes Jeyne is also guilty for following Sansa.

However, these facts not negate Sansa's own guilt in the systematic destruction of her sister's self-confidence and image. This doesn't make Sansa irredeemable or a monster; she's flawed, and hopefully this will be one of the flaws she works through in the coming books.

I have a longer post about this here, if anyone's interested, but it's basically more of what I've already said lol.

I will say, the fact that that person deleted their comments really does speak to how soundly you beat them in the argument lmao. Great job!! Also don't hesitate to tag me in things if you want, I actually really enjoy that!!

💖 @bee-unknown

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I find it interesting how so many TG stans are also Rhaegar antis. Like obviously, TG stans usually are very anti Targaryen, but the fact that the people who stan an actual rapist hate Rhaegar is wild.

Every Rhaegar anti spouts the same shit about how he's either a manipulative madman obsessed with a prophecy or he abducted and raped Lyanna. It's so wild to me how people will blatantly ignore things characters in ASOIAF and the literal author have said about Rhaegar. It's even more wild that these people will just stan and adore Aegon and Aemond who are actual rapists and mass murderers.

Everything Rhaegar antis accuse him of being are exemplified in Aegon and Aemond. They are warmongers, rapists, power hungry, imprison/abduct innocent women, and purposely started a war. I just can't understand this fandom.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

George R.R. Martin talks about how the “Daenerys is a white savior” argument doesn’t work. 

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Is Rhaenyra a broken woman? Were Rhaenyra's worst actions and tyranny the result of her grief and paranoia after the violent deaths of her children? Or was she like this before her children died?

No, I don't think Rhaenyra was always that paranoid and cruel. When Rhaenyra was younger, she was beloved and had many close allies and friends among the noble houses. Part of her arc in the Dance was losing her family and friends as a result of the war.

GRRM even remarks in the book that losing Luke and Jace hardened her, while losing Viserys and Joff almost broke her. It's only after Joff dies that we see a true spiral of her mental state.

That's when she declared Addam a traitor, ordered Nettles be executed, and the inquisition in KL. At that time, Daemon had been gone for most of the war, her closest advisor (Rhaenys) is dead, and Corlys has betrayed her (it's a lot more complicated than that, but from Rhaenyra only sees the betrayal).

The Dance shows the painful and tragic consequences of injustice and a patriarchal society. If the Greens hadn't usurped Rhaenyra and killed her children, she would have been much more stable and reasonable as a ruler.

Granted Rhaenyra has always had a temper and a willingness to execute her opponents (Vaemond). However, that happened because she and her children were being threatened by Vaemond. She was never a good person or a social reformer, but she wasn't always the cruel and paranoid woman she became at the end of the Dance.

@guiboob

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

People in the ASOIAF fandom are very obsessed with passive women they can project onto. The obsessions with the characters of show!Alicent, Sansa, Elia, and Helaena are perfect examples of this.

In the show, Alicent is changed from a woman who actively seeks power and heads the scheming of the green faction into a passive victim who watches and reacts to the men around her. And yet, despite this being a much more boring characterization, the show version is vastly more preferred by her stans. They condemn her book character as simply an "evil stepmother trope" while completely ignoring how their fav is just as blank and tropey as they accuse her book counterpart to be. Alicent stans want her to be the show's blank victimized canvas.

Helaena is someone who the show changed very little in the adaptation, because both book and show Helaena have little impact on the plot other than to be victims of their surroundings. Both women are forced to marry Aegon at thirteen and have his children, go through B&C, and are the least active members of the green faction. The show only added elements to make her more tragic: her dreaming and autistic behaviors. Helaena's character makes her the perfect canvas for certain fans to project themselves onto as she simply exists to be victimized and play the dutiful wife/daughter despite her circumstances, just like the show version of her mother.

Elia Martell is a woman who we know very little about. She died thirteen years before the events of ASOIAF and, unlike characters like Rhaegar and Lyanna, she has no pov characters who think about her enough for us to learn anything about her. The only things we know are that she was loved by her family, was in an arranged marriage to Rhaegar, had his two (confirmed) children, and was brutally raped and murdered by Lannister men. She is an unknown character and, again unlike Rhaegar and Lyanna, has no known active role in the events surrounding the Rebellion. Because of these things, she is, again, the perfect blank canvas for people to project on.

Sansa is, despite being a prominent pov character in ASOIAF, a very passive character. She rarely takes action in her circumstances and simply reacts to them while trying to survive. There's nothing wrong with this, she's a young girl who has never had to fight for anything in her life, it's not unexpected or condemnable for her reaction to her circumstances to be this way. However, her passivity is something her stans obsess over. She is praised for being the "perfect lady" and they project their desires to see her rule onto her and how they view her story.

These women have been chosen by these fans because of their passivity and tragedy. They love that the women have suffered in the name of the "duty" they believe is higher than them. Because they love passivity, they hate the women of ASOIAF who are active in their own lives and fight to better their circumstances. Characters like Rhaenyra, Arya, Daenerys, and Lyanna are all massive influences on the world and purposely chose to challenge the patriarchy. Since they did not take their suffering silently, theses certain fans view them as wrong and hate them. They only love the women they can project on and who simply refuse to fight for better lives.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

First off: wow dude, you clearly have never read the book. It takes some serious fucking guts to call me stupid while spouting shit that shows you are apparently illiterate.

Lyanna is much more than a "tool of intrigue". She was brash, loud, and a literal fighter. She learned to fight with a sword, she's heavily implied to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree. In fact it's basically canon at this point, anyone who has read the books can see this. We know all this from Ned Stark's pov and from Howland Reed.

Lyanna's very nature is to be active, she rejects the status quo Westeros forces on women by her actions. She refused to behave as a "proper lady", she fought against an unwanted marriage, and, again, she literally learned to fight so well that she won a fucking tourney.

GOT dropped almost everything about Lyanna. Her parallels with Arya, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and basically her whole personality were all scrapped. The only thing D&D kept was that she's Jon's mom, rejected Robert, and was in love with Rhaegar. They left her a blank slate.

Although that's apparently how people prefer her, Elia, and Helaena. Their perfect blank slates that they can project whatever bullshit they want onto. That was the point of my post.

You clearly hate Lyanna for whatever reason, probably because you haven't read the books tbh. Yeah, there are people who've read the books who hate her, and everyone's entitled to their opinions, but your opinions are not the actual story.

Arya was based on the feminists GRRM knew in the 1960s. Do you know how that connects to Lyanna? Well she's the character most paralleled with Arya, therefore she is at least in part based on these women. Also, again, her actual character in the book reflects this. GRRM has also confirmed that he sees and has written Rhaegar and Lyanna's story to be a tragic love story.

For some reason you, and many people like you, seem to think that in order to be a woman who defies the patriarchy, she needs to literally write feminist manifestos and completely destroy the system in her lifetime.

Lyanna defies the patriarchy by simply living the way she wanted. She refused to be forced into a marriage that would doubtlessly become abusive and refused to have her bodily autonomy violated and be used for her womb. In the world of ASOIAF that was a massive fucking deal. That's Ned and Catelyn constantly try to break Arya, again, Lyanna's parallel, of her "unladylike" behavior.

Lyanna being blamed for the events of Robert's Rebellion is fucking disgusting. Robert and Jon Arryn started that of their own free will, Robert simply used Lyanna as an excuse. Ned joined because of Aerys murdering his father and brother. Yes, Lyanna and Rhaegar's choices affected the war, however, that is part of the larger Love vs Duty theme GRRM has woven through all of ASOIAF.

Westeros was already well on its way to civil war because of Aerys' tyranny and instability. Rhaegar himself was planning to overthrow his father. Aerys was the reason for the rebellion, Robert was the reason the Targaryens were almost wiped out. This isn't the first time a woman has run away from a shitty arranged marriage, and, shockingly, those didn't end in rebellion. Robert simply used Lyanna as an excuse.

Maybe go read the books instead of trying to flex your supposedly superior knowledge of books jfc.

People in the ASOIAF fandom are very obsessed with passive women they can project onto. The obsessions with the characters of show!Alicent, Sansa, Elia, and Helaena are perfect examples of this.

In the show, Alicent is changed from a woman who actively seeks power and heads the scheming of the green faction into a passive victim who watches and reacts to the men around her. And yet, despite this being a much more boring characterization, the show version is vastly more preferred by her stans. They condemn her book character as simply an "evil stepmother trope" while completely ignoring how their fav is just as blank and tropey as they accuse her book counterpart to be. Alicent stans want her to be the show's blank victimized canvas.

Helaena is someone who the show changed very little in the adaptation, because both book and show Helaena have little impact on the plot other than to be victims of their surroundings. Both women are forced to marry Aegon at thirteen and have his children, go through B&C, and are the least active members of the green faction. The show only added elements to make her more tragic: her dreaming and autistic behaviors. Helaena's character makes her the perfect canvas for certain fans to project themselves onto as she simply exists to be victimized and play the dutiful wife/daughter despite her circumstances, just like the show version of her mother.

Elia Martell is a woman who we know very little about. She died thirteen years before the events of ASOIAF and, unlike characters like Rhaegar and Lyanna, she has no pov characters who think about her enough for us to learn anything about her. The only things we know are that she was loved by her family, was in an arranged marriage to Rhaegar, had his two (confirmed) children, and was brutally raped and murdered by Lannister men. She is an unknown character and, again unlike Rhaegar and Lyanna, has no known active role in the events surrounding the Rebellion. Because of these things, she is, again, the perfect blank canvas for people to project on.

Sansa is, despite being a prominent pov character in ASOIAF, a very passive character. She rarely takes action in her circumstances and simply reacts to them while trying to survive. There's nothing wrong with this, she's a young girl who has never had to fight for anything in her life, it's not unexpected or condemnable for her reaction to her circumstances to be this way. However, her passivity is something her stans obsess over. She is praised for being the "perfect lady" and they project their desires to see her rule onto her and how they view her story.

These women have been chosen by these fans because of their passivity and tragedy. They love that the women have suffered in the name of the "duty" they believe is higher than them. Because they love passivity, they hate the women of ASOIAF who are active in their own lives and fight to better their circumstances. Characters like Rhaenyra, Arya, Daenerys, and Lyanna are all massive influences on the world and purposely chose to challenge the patriarchy. Since they did not take their suffering silently, theses certain fans view them as wrong and hate them. They only love the women they can project on and who simply refuse to fight for better lives.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

every time someone says “““dany was just handed her dragons”” another bunch of my brain cells die

dany was handed three fucking rocks.

she got her dragons through fire and blood and ritual sacrifice and by walking into a blazing funeral pyre which could have burnt her into a crisp, but didn’t because she got the secret that her family’s tried to figure out for decades to no avail but tragedy

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

but they actually like rhaena now bc they've gaslighted themselves into believing she hates rhaenyra 🤡

Well yeah of course, god forbid any woman support another in HOTD. No, they all must be bitter and hate any woman who isn't suffering like them. Even then, they must only look at each other with teary eyes then go back to the children they were forced to birth.

In this fandom, any woman who doesn't suffer prettily is a selfish and bitchy mary sue who deserves to die horribly. Then, in a twisted attempt to disguise the inherit misogyny of TG, they twist any female character to be "on their side".

They did it with Rhaenys, Laena, and even Baela sometimes, of course Rhaena isn't safe. I'm sure if Aemma was alive, they'd try to make her secretly be praying on her own daughter's downfall. If Visenya somehow made it to adolescence, they'd portray her as wanting to kill her evil parents and run away with her amazing uncles. They actually do that in fics with Visenya or an oc.

TG stans are so unwilling to see/acknowledge how shitty and misogynistic their precious greens are that they just project or destroy any female character who isn't on their side.