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Everything is like “QUEER history” and “List of QUEER young adult books” or “Top 10 QUEER movies” and queer this and queer that and for the love of god please just say LGBT.

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Made an observation from looking at you all talking about your teenage experiences.

(if you're in this picture multiple times then congrats you get extra swords)

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Read the rest on twitter... or below the cut:

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I agree with this, but I do still subscribe to the 'it needs to be clear that Penelope has options' group. Let me see if I can explain

1. There's a negative stereotype with plus-sized women that I see in romance over and over again, which is that men will only date plus-sized women if they are friends first. Because men don't see plus-sized women as being attractive based purely on their looks. The book leans into this stereotype heavily, and so far, the show has followed this stereotype as well. In the first two seasons, Daphne, Kate, Edwina, and even Eloise have men (outside of the main love interest) show interest in them, while we haven't seen any man show any interest in Penelope.

Therefore, I think it's important in season 3 that the show clearly establishes that there are other men interested in Penelope. It can be something as simple as a man checking Penelope out at the ball, or a man asking her to dance. It doesn't need to be a love triangle, or have Jealous!Colin. Just enough to squash this negative stereotype.

2. Penelope does have options outside of Colin, but I'm not sure how aware she is of it. We see her running her LW operations, but what's her plan for the future regarding LW? Does she have a plan for how to use the money? We don't really know.

Penelope clearly is holding Colin up on a pedestal, but at this point, Penelope also sees Colin as her only option, as no other man even talks to her. I think part of not idealizing Colin is realizing that she has other male options. Again, I don't need to see a love triangle or Jealous!Colin, just make sure it's clear to her that she doesn't need Colin to get married, if that's what she wants. She doesn't need to get married at all, if that's what she wants. LW and LW's money provide her plenty of options. In season 3, I'd like Penelope to really consider all of these options and figure out what she truly wants.

I think Jealous!Colin is a common trope that would address these issues I'm seeing, which is why I see it referenced so often, but you're right to point out some of the potential implications of using this trope. For my part, I could take it or leave it depending on the execution. But overall, I hope the show in season 3 does address these issues as I doubt we'll get another plus-sized character in this show.

Really gotta address the implications of ‘Jealous!Colin’ in Polin because so many people are out here justifying it as ‘I want it to be clear that Penelope has options outside of him!!’

…of course she does. She has from the start. She’s a self-made woman. She’s out here w/ a business and a career and her own money. Another man doesn’t have to be an option. And, in fact, it makes me sad to see it perpetuated so often, because so much of confidence and self-love is just saying ‘who I am is enough as I am now, without anything or anyone else’ and THAT’S the story I want for Pen. THAT’S what would really get me.

Look, if what you want is a wish fulfillment fantasy in which you just wanna watch Colin pine from the sidelines because you identify strongly with Penelope and want her to be swooned over and wined and dined, just say that. There’s plenty of fic out there for it (and more every day). Let’s leave it out of the show though, can we?

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It seems like the Persuasion 2022 trailer is going for Emma 2020 vibes, but I'm getting Mansfield Park 1999 vibes.

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Such a good analysis and good points.

I think Mary is the one to say this because she's amoral. Both Fanny and Mary recognize the corruption of others, and Mary looks at it and says why should I try to be a moral person when I see so many people benefit from being amoral? Fanny on the other hand stays true to her own inner sense of morality. Mary's critiques are valid but her final conclusions aren't.

Also, not for nothing. Having the main moral character critique the church at that time, could be poorly received. But hiding that critique in an amoral character? That's a good work around for Austen.

Why did Jane Austen make Mary Crawford so Right?

Jane Austen has a funny habit of putting very quotable or correct ideas into the mouths of villains, or at least characters that we are not supposed to admire. Like Caroline Bingley’s praise of reading or Isabella Thorpe’s commentary on friendship. But it is readily apparent in those cases that the characters actually mean something quite different (Caroline pretends to love reading to attract Darcy, Isabella is using emotional blackmail). What is harder to understand is Mary Crawford. I do believe we are supposed to view her character negatively, but Mary’s commentary on the church is very poignant, even today, and I think in many ways, Jane Austen herself agreed.

Mary’s first commentary on the church is in the chapel at Southerton, where she basically says, (I paraphrase) “You can’t force piety on people. Make them sit in a chapel and if they are not there with their heart, they will think of something else. Also, those in power neglect church while demanding piety of those lower than them.” She is right, and Edmund knows she is right (he says, “but I have not yet left Oxford long enough to forget what chapel prayers are.“ and I can’t really see the rich, hung-over students at Oxford paying a lot of attention in chapel). And yet, Edmund is “too angry for speech” when Mary makes this critique.

(As an aside, having grown up in the church, I have seen this a lot even today. There are many people who attend as often as they can, and yet fail completely to live out Christian values. They seem to believe that quantity alone can replace quality and that attendance is equal to living out moral principles.)

Mary is proved correct throughout the novel. Sir Thomas later reflects that his daughters knew their religion theoretically but did not take its lessons to heart. Henry admits that while he sits in church he thinks about other things (like how to read the liturgy properly) and Edmund later reflects that London preachers who are listened to as great performers don’t actually do much to change minds and hearts because they don’t actually interact with the people they preach to or model good behaviour. Going to chapel does not a religious person make. 

Another commentary from Mary, which comes up several times, is that those who go into the profession of the church do it not because they are called but because of the stable income of a living. Edmund insists that he chose the church himself, and we know from narration that he does mean to do his job well, but I do think Mary’s opinion more captures the state of the profession:

“Oh! no doubt he [a clergyman] is very sincere in preferring an income ready made, to the trouble of working for one; and has the best intentions of doing nothing all the rest of his days but eat, drink, and grow fat. It is indolence, Mr. Bertram, indeed. Indolence and love of ease; a want of all laudable ambition, of taste for good company, or of inclination to take the trouble of being agreeable, which make men clergymen. A clergyman has nothing to do but be slovenly and selfish—read the newspaper, watch the weather, and quarrel with his wife. His curate does all the work, and the business of his own life is to dine.”

Mary and Henry represent more of a London way of thinking, but given Mr. Elton and Mr. Collins and the fact that the British government would soon reform the livings system, I tend to think their opinion here is generally correct. Henry is kind of shocked that Edmund won’t just take the income and install a curate, which I take to mean that he has met a lot of clergymen in London who ride back into the country twice a year to give a sermon and let their underpaid curates do the rest.

This all leads to the question, why is Mary the one who says all this? Why do the moral characters become angry and oppose her? Why is the truth given to someone who is basically amoral? My idea is this: Mary is telling us what has caused her jaded view on the church and the jaded view of the whole of England. Edmund wants to do the right thing, to live among his parishioners and provide an example of moral living, but Mary has not seen that before. In her life, she has experienced preachers without substance and church without meaning and she’s rejected it all. Part of her attraction to Edmund is that he actually lives out his moral values. (She finds charm in, “his sincerity, his steadiness, his integrity” and as a side note, this is also what Henry finds fascinating about Fanny). The moral characters become angry, I think, because they don’t actually have a solution.

To summarize, Mary’s criticism of the church says this, “Look what you have created.”

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It has just occurred to me that of all the characters in Winnie the Pooh, the only ones that lack both fingerless stuffing hands and faint seam lines (the indications that someone is a stuffed animal) are Rabbit and Owl. Which carries the possible implication that Rabbit and Owl are just a normal rabbit and owl living with a bunch of sentient stuffed animals.

And somehow this makes Rabbit’s constant consternation with all of his neighbors even funnier to me.

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Fic idea: Benedict/Penelope investigative team up.

Benedict and Eloise are on the swings, both bummed out for various reasons.

Eloise because of Penelope and how she misses her friend but is still so angry with her and has no idea what to do about this secret she now has and it's eating her up inside. Especially because the person she would usually talk things out with IS Penelope. So she's just feeling incredibly sad and mad and isolated with this rift.

Benedict is moping because he wants to find his Lady in Silver, who he has had no luck finding on his own, and no one seems to be taking him seriously, thinking his desire to find this woman is one of his passing fancies.

Eventually, Eloise just bursts out with, "PENELOPE IS LADY WHISTLEDOWN."

And at first Benedict is like, "What???!!! Penelope? No, you can't be serious."

But Eloise needs to tell someone because it's been killing her, not having anyone to talk to, so she confides the whole story and how she's so furious with Penelope and she has no idea what to do.

And Benedict is like, "Huh."

We think that might be the end of it, until the next day, when Benedict goes to Penelope for her help. It's occured to him that, as Lady Whistledown, Penelope might actually be his best lead to help him find his Lady in Silver. Penelope reluctantly agrees to help and Benedict makes it look like they are courting so they have excuses to spend more time together.

Eloise is shocked and dismayed, even though Benedict and Penelope both straight up admit what they're doing to her. Mostly because when Eloise told Benedict about the Lady Whistledown stuff she didn't think he would, like, DO anything with it, and now he's hanging around her BFF who she's still on the outs with and she still has no idea what to do.

Meanwhile, Colin gets word that Benedict is courting Penelope and he's very much not happy about it. After no one he writes to seems to be very bothered by this news, and Penelope herself ignores his letters, he cuts his travels short and comes home, sure he's rescuing Penelope from getting her heart broken by his philandering older brother. Unfortunately for him, Penelope and Benedict have spent enough time together to become pretty good friends and Benedict is more than happy to play up their "courtship" in front of Colin to mess with his brother.

Bonus points if Colin confronts Penelope with the information that Benedict is already in love with another, mystery woman, and Pen is like, "Yeah I know." And doesn't elaborate. Just lets Colin believe she's cool with Benedict courting her for real while being in love with someone else, just to watch his head implode.

I just think it would be very fun to have Benedict come to Penelope and be like. "Listen I know you're Lady Whistledown, that's whatever, honestly pretty funny if you ask me, but I have a problem and you're a literal collector of secrets so maybe you can help me out."

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Bridgerton as community

Seeing Anthony in wet shirt emergin from the lake

Every Colin and Penelope interaction

Eloise finding out pen is lady whistledown

Eloise seeing pen buying a new quill

Penelope wanting to greet colin when he’s back from greece

Lady Danbury and violet matchmaking

Eloise being on her feminism high

Colin when Benedict gets high as a kite

Portia featherington

Edwina after finding out that Anthony loves Kate

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friendly reminder that “kudos” means “glory” in ancient greek, so if you give someone kudos you are wishing them renown on the battlefield

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I don't think Colin was in love with Marina. I think Colin has a hero complex and his engagement to Marina really fed into that.

Penelope mentions the Marina needs to be 'rescued' from dancing with an unwelcome suitor and Colin does so.

Colin's proposal to Marina is soooo awkward. Colin doesn't seem to know what to do, but it's clear Marina wants something from him (she's a damsel that needs saving) and the scene is set for a seduction (too ungentlemanly) or a proposal, so he proposes.

But Colin doesn't seem particularly happy that he's engaged to Marina. He's not making heart eyes or sighing. He's so busy focused on convincing everyone that he's grown up enough to be engaged (look how serious he is. He's an ADULT)

His family's evident disapproval just feeds into the hero complex (it's always more romantic when your family disapproves)

Colin said he'd have been willing to raise her children if she had asked (doesn't that sound like a good heroic thing to say?)

When he visits Marina in season 2, he's clearly waiting for Marina to tell him that she's unhappy (the damsel should be unhappy when parted from the hero, after all). But she's clearly not, so he finally starts with a whole 'i forgive you' speech unprompted (doesn't that make him sound so generous and noble?), but Marina is having none of it. 'i refuse to be sucked into your fantasy '.

Instead of learning his lesson, he makes Penelope his new damsel.

Seriously...there was no reason for Penelope to witness his confrontation with Lord Featherington. And it wasn't even a good plan to ensure LF actually returned everyone's money. But it was a good plan for making him look heroic in Penelope's eyes. (He even rehearsed his speech. Bless.)

For season 3, my guess is that he tries this hero saving again with Penelope and Penelope shuts him down HARD. I think this is an important lesson for him to learn before he gets together with Penelope. You can't have a real relationship with someone if you view yourself as some fantastical hero. He's got some work to do next season.

I'm rewatching season 1 and I just hate that they did this dramatic line with marina and colin. he even said that he was in love with her so much that he would accept her with a child. he has to literally crawl in front of penelope so I don't get the disgusting taste of him almost being married to her cousin. i need a strong contrast to see that marina was just a passion

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this has reduced me to tears

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Okay. But what if season 3 opens with Colin traveling abroad and writing letters to Penelope only to receive a letter back from Penelope that says something like

Dear Mr. Bridgerton,

It is inappropriate for an unmarried lady to engage in a private correspondence with a gentleman of no relation. I must request that you do not write to me again.

And Colin is 😢 and frantically writing letters to Eloise to figure out whats going on. Eloise writes back super cryptically like

I have not seen Miss Penelope Featherington since the end of the London season. She appeared to be in good health.

And Colin is so bummed because he has all these THOUGHTS and FEELINGS that he wants to tell Penelope about his travels and he CAN'T! So he starts writing them all down in a journal...and that's how he figures out that he wants to be a travel writer.

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Well. Looks like I was wrong about season 3. Totally ship Polin so trying to readjust my thinking and just get excited for next season. I know Nicola and Luke Newton will be awesome!

Hoping they keep the LW plot line from RMB until season 4 though. I want to keep LW around for a bit after Penelope goes through her redemption arc.

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happy may the fourth 🥲