sillysalmonn101

[sillysalmonn101]

Like it’s just them milking the nostalgia bait for money guys 😭

people saying that the live action how to train your dragon is good actually because it's basically just a shot for shot remake of the original... then why the fuck would I watch it when I can just watch the (more visually stunning, not a blatant cash grab) original

[sillysalmonn101]

some days you cannot help but pity some people

[sillysalmonn101]

This isn’t even touching on how Rin facing classism, colourism, and racism in and outside of her society are all literally key points of her character, and Caitlyn is a rich nepo baby in a world that has shown no signs that racism or colourism even exist. Rin’s story (in book one most specifically, books two and three divulge from there but still follow the general path) is about her experiencing and overcoming the oppression that is inherent within and outside of her society and country, and Caitlyn is an OPPRESSOR !!

The comparison I’m about to make is sort of a silly one, but it’s one that I think about a lot so I’m gonna make it anyway 😛

A big problem that Caitlyn stans have is that they love to say people just hate complex characters — typically complex female characters. Now, this falls flat for a myriad of reasons but the one I’d like to get into is that Caitlyn simply isn’t a very complex character, nor is she a well written one. This might lose some of you here — that’s okay — but comparing her to Rin (The Poppy War by R. F. Kuang) is light night and day in terms of characterization and fandom response.

It is a little silly, because the tones and message of The Poppy War vs Arcane are very different, but they’re both political statements at their core.

Caitlyn is not a good person, but the way she’s written makes it clear that she’s supposed to be. The audience is supposed to believe that, after everything that she’s done wrong and everybody that she’s hurt, she is a good person at her core. The problem arises from the fact that the writers want her to be a good person, while using the aesthetics of moral greyness for her character development. The dictator arc is never actually supposed to be bad, nor is she a bad person by the end of it — it’s simply a tool used to that Caitlyn and Vi have something to overcome (that being Caitlyn’s bout of immorality and martial law) at the end of the show. But I’ve already said all of that (and more, in better formatted posts) so I won’t regurgitate my old posts.

Caitlyn stans have an odd way of addressing her presumed complexity, however. They laud her as a wonderfully written complex character, and tell those who dislike her that they just cannot handle morally grey characters. This doesn’t really stick, though, when Caitlyn stans go out of their way to claim that she’s still a good person. Caitlyn being a good person, her actions having a just and pure motivator even if they were carried out poorly, her classism being artfully swept under the rug — it all removes any actual complexity and moral greyness from her character. She can’t be morally grey and a good person.

While The Poppy War has many of its own faults, and despite the fact that I actually don’t really like Rin, she’s undoubtedly a better representation of a morally grey, complex female character. R. F. Kuang is very, very deliberate in writing Rin as

1.) A BAD person. She’s not even really morally grey, she is a bad person.

2.) An exceptionally unreliable narrator.

These two traits are a key factor in why Rin is a better written, more tolerable version of the character that Caitlyn was supposed to be. Rin is clearly shown as a bad person — even in her own skewed, self-important view of herself — for the genocide of the Mugenese people, EVEN IF the Mugenese Federation was actively committing every crime against humanity to the Nikaran people. Moreover, the consequences of Rin’s actions — interpersonal and political — are very clearly shown. She loses friends, and people are mutilated and die because of what she does. Her wiping out Longbow Island was never framed as something just — and she had motive and knew oppression intimately, unlike Caitlyn.

Alongside her canonically being a bad person — with negative traits that are shown probably more than her positive traits — the fandom treats her much differently. It would be untrue if I said that some of the fandom didn’t absolve Rin of any wrongdoing because she is perceived as a “girlboss feminist” type of character, the majority of the fandom understands that she is — at best — a morally grey character. Her complexity is never doubted, but that doesn’t make her particularly moral or likeable. Nobody ever questions that she has done objectively immoral things that had a real, tangible effect. Caitlyn fans do.

The rant wasn’t particularly well put together, but it was something that I’ve been thinking about for ages.

Honestly? I don’t even like Rin. I think she’s insufferable even looking past the insanity and war crimes. But I think she is so much more of a better character than Caitlyn that it almost feels unfair to compare them.

[sillysalmonn101]

The comparison I’m about to make is sort of a silly one, but it’s one that I think about a lot so I’m gonna make it anyway 😛

A big problem that Caitlyn stans have is that they love to say people just hate complex characters — typically complex female characters. Now, this falls flat for a myriad of reasons but the one I’d like to get into is that Caitlyn simply isn’t a very complex character, nor is she a well written one. This might lose some of you here — that’s okay — but comparing her to Rin (The Poppy War by R. F. Kuang) is light night and day in terms of characterization and fandom response.

It is a little silly, because the tones and message of The Poppy War vs Arcane are very different, but they’re both political statements at their core.

Caitlyn is not a good person, but the way she’s written makes it clear that she’s supposed to be. The audience is supposed to believe that, after everything that she’s done wrong and everybody that she’s hurt, she is a good person at her core. The problem arises from the fact that the writers want her to be a good person, while using the aesthetics of moral greyness for her character development. The dictator arc is never actually supposed to be bad, nor is she a bad person by the end of it — it’s simply a tool used to that Caitlyn and Vi have something to overcome (that being Caitlyn’s bout of immorality and martial law) at the end of the show. But I’ve already said all of that (and more, in better formatted posts) so I won’t regurgitate my old posts.

Caitlyn stans have an odd way of addressing her presumed complexity, however. They laud her as a wonderfully written complex character, and tell those who dislike her that they just cannot handle morally grey characters. This doesn’t really stick, though, when Caitlyn stans go out of their way to claim that she’s still a good person. Caitlyn being a good person, her actions having a just and pure motivator even if they were carried out poorly, her classism being artfully swept under the rug — it all removes any actual complexity and moral greyness from her character. She can’t be morally grey and a good person.

While The Poppy War has many of its own faults, and despite the fact that I actually don’t really like Rin, she’s undoubtedly a better representation of a morally grey, complex female character. R. F. Kuang is very, very deliberate in writing Rin as

1.) A BAD person. She’s not even really morally grey, she is a bad person.

2.) An exceptionally unreliable narrator.

These two traits are a key factor in why Rin is a better written, more tolerable version of the character that Caitlyn was supposed to be. Rin is clearly shown as a bad person — even in her own skewed, self-important view of herself — for the genocide of the Mugenese people, EVEN IF the Mugenese Federation was actively committing every crime against humanity to the Nikaran people. Moreover, the consequences of Rin’s actions — interpersonal and political — are very clearly shown. She loses friends, and people are mutilated and die because of what she does. Her wiping out Longbow Island was never framed as something just — and she had motive and knew oppression intimately, unlike Caitlyn.

Alongside her canonically being a bad person — with negative traits that are shown probably more than her positive traits — the fandom treats her much differently. It would be untrue if I said that some of the fandom didn’t absolve Rin of any wrongdoing because she is perceived as a “girlboss feminist” type of character, the majority of the fandom understands that she is — at best — a morally grey character. Her complexity is never doubted, but that doesn’t make her particularly moral or likeable. Nobody ever questions that she has done objectively immoral things that had a real, tangible effect. Caitlyn fans do.

The rant wasn’t particularly well put together, but it was something that I’ve been thinking about for ages.

Honestly? I don’t even like Rin. I think she’s insufferable even looking past the insanity and war crimes. But I think she is so much more of a better character than Caitlyn that it almost feels unfair to compare them.

[sillysalmonn101]

I think a lot of arcane fans are just actually stupid lowk 😭 it’s a mix of being a moron and having actual malice that’s super dangerous to start fostering because it’s a pipeline

Note to self : do not go on the arcane reddit EVER if you don't want to see the worst takes known to man. Because why did i see someone said caitlyn HAD to hit Vi because Vi wouldn't let go and was "stopping her from leaving" 😮‍💨 Never making that mistake again

[sillysalmonn101]

I don’t even really like Silco all that much, however I do like more antagonist characters (namely Sevika and Ambessa) — and I think what a lot of Caitlyn fans fail to realize when people like Silco more is that Silco was ALWAYS supposed to be an antagonist.

There is never any doubt in the show’s writing that Silco was a bad guy. He’s a drug lord and has killed children by proxy, he groomed Jinx (he did love her, 100%, but he also groomed her), he didn’t make Zaun worse than Piltover eventually would have made it but he definitely didn’t make Zaun better. He was not supposed to be likeable nor was he supposed to be redeemable — the audience knows he’s bad, HE knows his actions harm people and is not only willing to admit that, but completely okay with it.

The same thing goes for Ambessa. The audience knows she’s a warmonger, the audience knows she’s an antagonist, the audience knows she’s a bad person. And despite them both having pretty noble ideas (perhaps at first with Silco, I will admit that his goals changed in the seven year timeskip) — Ambessa wishing to protect her family, Silco wishing to dismantle an oppressive system and give power to Zaun — they are still bad people. Their noble intentions do not lessen the impact of their actions; Caitlyn’s intentions and motivations aren’t particularly noble, but they’re treated as if they make her some valiant warrior who fights for justice and is — at the end of the show — some sort of hero to Zaun. The narrative doesn’t allow Caitlyn to be a bad person, and the narrative forgives Caitlyn for the audience — she was never going to actually be a bad person in the eyes of the narrative, but Silco and Ambessa were.

That doesn’t even touch upon how, fundamentally, Silco and Caitlyn are not similar characters. Caitlyn has immeasurable wealth and resources to fall back upon, and before the death of her mother, her life was pretty good. Silco is poor, blind in one eye, like super duper traumatized, and doesn’t gas a city for one person. Silco is shown to DISAPPROVE of Jinx’s senseless killing of enforcers in S1 (I will admit that it isn’t because he believes their lives to be important or valuable, but it’s clearly not the same as Caitlyn gassing innocent people).

Silco was a centrist talking point, made to present revolution as a bad thing. However, there is some legitimacy to his actions — in the grand scheme of things, not so much interpersonal — while Caitlyn’s actions involve mass police brutality and unjust imprisonment, enforcing martial law, and gassing innocent people with a canonically TOXIC gas. Most of Caitlyn’s s2 parallels (Jinx and Silco, namely) don’t actually have a lot of merit because the writers fundamentally misunderstand leftist ideology.

"OH YOU HATE CAITLYN BUT YOU PROBABLY DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SILCO!"

LOUD WRONG BUZZER OVER AND OVER AGAIN

Not only do i despise Silco as an individual and how the fandom loves to ignore the fact that he groomed Jinx (in a non sexual way) and he is one of the main reasons why s1 Jinx was as bad as she was (no, letting the clearly self destructive person be self destructive is not giving them freedom and it is in fact more a way for an abuser to keep the abused in their control)

I despise the fact that the writers wanted to push the centrist bullshit of "Oh violence against your opressors is as bad as the violence your opressors execute over you" using HIM.

But guess what? Silco being an awful person and character does not erase Caitlyn. They're both shitty people and they're both awfully written only existing for the writers to push stuff like

-Abusing butch lesbians is okay!

-ACAB is wrong

-We shouldn't support revolution we should support a reform!

-Police brutality can be okay if it's a femenine woman doing it!

Amongst others.

Btw i will most likely make another post discussing Silco's abuse towards Jinx because everyone from a Jinx fan to a Kuklux kiraman stan loves to push this narrative of how silco was a "great father" and a "positive influence" bs, directly and inderectly pushing another narrative trying to make Jinx look like a spoiled brat who only did stuff because she was a "UNSTABLE MENTALLY ILL MONSTER WHO CANNOT LOVE AND ONLY ACTS FROM SADISM. AND SHE WAS THE ONE WHO CHOSE THAT LIFE NOBODY BUT HERSELF CAN BE BLAMED!" And that shit obviously doesn't sit right with me especially if it comes from the people that are now on twitter using raegan's "war against drugs!" As a way to defend their favorite cop.

[sillysalmonn101]

It’s so crazy how she was such a good subversion of the manic pixie dream girl trope in S2, just for the writers to make her everything about it down to fridging her for Caitvi’s ending

Jinx S2 is peak "Motherhood fixes hysteria/mental health of women, actually" trope. She is also peak "chosen one" trope bullshit.

[sillysalmonn101]

Cassandra being better than most councillors doesn’t make her GOOD, it just makes her better. She wasn’t a good person, nor did she truly care about the citizens of Zaun. At the end of the day, even the best councillor — including Mel — is still money hungry and immoral at best. Being a councillor inherently removes any Piltovan character of the moral superiority that they supposedly exhibit.

“cassandra actually cared abt the ppl of the underground & believed in human rights, oh my god 🥺🥺🥺”

you’re not actually that fucking stupid, are you?

[sillysalmonn101]

S1 Caitlyn was infinitely more compelling and complex than s2 Caitlyn. Making the idea of a character morally grey — though not putting it into practise because you don’t want your favourite cop to look bad — does not suddenly make them complex. Moreover, a complex character does not equate to a GOOD one. Caitlyn’s s2 arc is boring and, quite frankly, distasteful to watch. Not only was she more compelling, but she was a more complex character in s1.

Hate that when I like any caitvi content Tumblr floods my feed with Caitlyn defenders

[sillysalmonn101]

A larger problem I have with arcane s2 is that it wanted the aesthetics of a morally grey character without the corresponding actions. Caitlyn is morally grey — her s2 actions certainly aren’t just or motivated by goodness — yet the writers do not allow her to truly be a BAD person. She is framed as someone who just went down a bad path, and can come back from it — not a dictator who enforced martial law and used police brutality at the drop of a hat. Yes, a lot of Caitlyn stans are deluded by her being a pretty femme lesbian — and I do have a problem with her fans and with her, even outside of her poor, inconsistent s2 writing — but I feel like the arcane critical community should also realize that nearly every fault within s2 is not intentional (not the faults themselves) and are the larger consequences of having poor, trope-driven writing.

Caitlyn could have been a very compelling morally grey character, but she simply wasn’t because the narrative doesn’t think she’s morally grey. The narrative of arcane will ALWAYS forgive her, so she can never truly be morally grey or in any way a bad person.

I think the thing I hate the most about Caitlyn is her stans. They preach about how people can’t handle morally gray characters but when someone points out something they didn’t like about Caitlyn they will bend over backwards to try and defend her. You say you don’t like how she gassed the chembarons or hit Vi and they will throw excess after excuse to show that she’s innocent or worse, just insult you or call you racism for having a different opinion. You can have a well-written morally gray character(and in my opinion, Season 2 Caitlyn isn’t) and still have people dislike them for valid reasons. I would legit have more respect for Caitlyn fans if they actually accept that yeah, Caitlyn did bad things and owned up to it instead of trying to examine every corner that she did no wrong. Because like the morally gray character you say she is, she did do things wrong.

[sillysalmonn101]

I’ve never had a girlfriend but I imagine I’d be able to deal with grief better than immediately pistol whipping her 🤷‍♀️ maybe that’s just me though idk about you guys

can someone tell me when the c*itlyn/c*itvi stans realize that being a lesbian, a woman, and/or experiencing grief doesn’t justify c*itlyn’s actions? like, at all?

[sillysalmonn101]

Vi being characterized as the violent one of Caitvi is not only an incredibly surface level character analysis, but also perhaps a little derogatory towards Zaunites.

Vi is shown to be in combat more frequently than Caitlyn, that’s a fact. Of course she is!! She grew up in Zaun — and canonically had to fight for food on the table or her siblings being safe numerous times. But violence is not something she’s ever seen to enjoy, nor is it something that she particularly seeks out (in season one, at least).

Season two massively mischaracterized Caitlyn, but if anyone in Caitvi had to be labelled as “the violent one”, objectively it would be her. She’s shown to become physical when angry, she’s shown to have gassed civilians completely unprompted, she’s shown to have no issue striking her girlfriend. The idea that Vi is the “violent one” of their relationship comes from the idea that Zaunites = bad, evil, dirty, violent criminals, and that Piltovans = clean, peaceful, educated, elegant people. Perhaps it’s not always intentionally perpetrated, but it’s a lingering undertone in nearly all of those posts.

Another example of the writers blatant misunderstanding of Vi's core characteristics is calling her the "violent one" in opposition to Caitlyn's more cool headed temperament.

Strengh is Vi's greatest asset. It's what she uses to protect the people she cares about because in a place like Zaun, they have to utilize everything they have to survive. Vi by far, has the most fight scenes, but none of them are her acting on her temper and inflicting senseless violence. Throwing punches is not her knee-jerk reaction. Even during her first fight scene, where mind you, she's only 15, Vi only swings first because she knows her family is in danger.

Someone will come and argue that her fight with Sevika is her acting on emotions because she does literally knee her in the face, but it is still very much an equal fight. She doesn't strike when Sevika is down. Basic fighting etiquette still applies despite her personal feelings. The reason she searches for Sevika in the first place is because she wants information about Powder. Vi and Sevika are narrative foils (at least in season 1), Sevika stands in the way of all Vi is trying to achieve. Them clashing is not just out of Vi's want for revenge and the anger she holds.

Vi hitting Powder is the only non purposeful act of violence Vi inflicts, and it's only when she's faced with a very traumatic event.

When looking at both seasons as a whole, the contrast doesn't work, because who is the person who's shown prone to going to extremes, reacting with anger and violence as a response to being called out and opposed? Or just displaying unnecessary, unapologetic violence?

Yeah...

(Even though portraying Caitlyn as violent by the show is also a mischaracterization on writers part)

Looking at Vi as violent and hot tempered because "she fights a lot" is a very surface level way to look at her character, which is a reoccurring thing in the writing of season 2. Vi's display of violence is not brash and reckless. It's a tool. A tool she was taught to use because in Zaun, using everything in your disposal is a necessity. Even then, her fights are fair, often strategic. Vi doesn't just lash out on people as an emotional response, but seeing that required more than two second look at her character, which the writers apparently didn't wanna do.

[sillysalmonn101]

Caitlyn’s “redemption arc” felt incredibly cheap.

There are a few points that Caitlyn stans love to parrot that I’d like to bring up, the first of them being that Caitlyn betrayed Ambessa. While that’s true, the audience is given no indication that it’s because she felt bad. Why does she do it? We don’t know. Is it because she realized her wrongdoings to Zaun? Because her love for Vi overpowered her subservience to Ambessa? Because she suddenly realized that Ambessa was manipulating her?

Yes, Caitlyn led the charge against Noxus but it felt cheap for two reasons:

1.) She recruited the Zaunites of which she gassed, imprisoned, and used police brutality on to fight a war that they had no control nor power in.

2.) She did not fight for Zaun. She fought Noxus because it threatened Piltover — Zaun is nothing but an extension of Piltover in and outside of the show. Her redemption for her treatment of Zaun is…fighting against a nation that was threatening Piltover? Every scene of the battle between Noxus and Piltover takes place in Piltover, and yes, the audience can assume that Zaun would be negatively affected under Noxian rule, but that’s not fighting for Zaun. It would have been leagues more impactful had Caitlyn done something to fight specifically for Zaun, had she helped ONLY Zaun and not Zaun and Piltover.

“But Caitlyn gave her seat on the council to Sevika!!” Firstly, at no point in either seasons does Caitlyn even SUGGEST that she wants to be on the council — in fact, she actively avoids what her mother did in the first season by working as an enforcer. Secondly, that isn’t Caitlyn working to fix what she did to Zaun, that’s Caitlyn dumping all of the responsibility of Piltover making reparations onto Sevika. Moreover, Sevika is one person on a non-democratically elected council that decides things by majority vote — even if Sevika is on the council, the possibility of Piltover ever attempting to help Zaun is next to none.

Even her interpersonal relationships feel cheap. She doesn’t do anything to reconcile with Vi. Sure, she works with Jinx — but she would have betrayed Ambessa anyway. She doesn’t betray Ambessa for Vi, nor does she work with Jinx for Vi; her hatred is still placed at a higher level than her love and morals. She doesn’t ever go into Zaun again — her ending with Vi is that her and Vi live in her mansion in Piltover, completely alienating Vi of her culture and remaining family. Even after she’s supposedly redeemed, she still seems to view Vi as “one of the good ones”, as an exclusion to the larger part of Zaun’s population. She never has to change her views on Zaun or its people, and never has to experience it again.

Sure, she let Jinx go. But instead of comforting her grieving girlfriend, she flirts and jokes with her instead. Even Vi initiating the sex was gross, because Caitlyn could have brought Vi to her bedroom — I know I would have, no matter how desperate or horny I was. Yes, it’s good that they’re explicit lesbian representation, but that doesn’t make them GOOD lesbian representation.

Caitlyn’s redemption arc felt cheap but not unintentional. The writers of Arcane were very deliberate in writing season two the way they did. Caitlyn was redeemed by the narrative, and she was always going to be, so why should she even try at righting her wrongs? Her entire redemption arc felt like an apology that she strayed from the ways of Piltover and not reparations for her horrible actions.

[sillysalmonn101]

I feel like you guys forgot that Sevika was actively considering killing Silco in episode 8 (? I forgot which episode that Finn died sue me) like she respected him but she did not like him 😭

"Omg Sevika would never forgive jinx for killing silco" if she can forgive jinx for knocking her out, tying her up and drawing crude scribbles all over her body before hanging her upside down, she can most definitely forgive her for killing silco tbh. That woman has the patience of a saint (when it comes to the people she cares about) 💗💗

[sillysalmonn101]

Perhaps one of my biggest problems with season two caitvi — outside of the obvious abuse and unhealthy relationship dynamic — is that they didn’t have a real reason to be together in season two.

In season one, they had chemistry and it was clear that they actually liked each other as people and not potential romantic partners. Caitlyn was kind towards Vi, and Vi trusted Caitlyn. They were empathetic to each other’s struggles, and Caitlyn was (slowly) growing and learning the errors in Piltover because of Vi.

In season two, they have NO chemistry. In my opinion, their sex scene felt out of place and not at all sexy. They had nothing in common, and no real reason to even like each other — sure, there were the memories they had in season one, but Caitlyn acted completely differently in season two so that’s just what they are: memories. The audience was supposed to believe that they love each other because we are told: Caitlyn has tiny microexpressions that indicate she might like Vi, Vi goes through a mental breakdown because she and Caitlyn weren’t involved together (which is an entirely different topic, because I have issue believing she wouldn’t be upset over literally the myriad of other things going wrong in her life). Yet, we aren’t shown why they like each other, nor do the characters tell each other why they like them.

They had no chemistry, no reason to be together aside from Caitvi being canon in league. I knew they’d be endgame, but the show did not lead me to that conclusion by myself — I knew because of league.

[sillysalmonn101]

It’s truly shocking how little chemistry Caitvi had in season two. Ignoring the abuse stuff for a minute, they truly had no reason to be together other than that they’re canon in league. Their sex scene did not feel real and honestly wasn’t sexy at all because they had.NO chemistry??

They couldn't make Loris a woman because they knew the chemistry would instantly blow Caitvi out of the water. They couldn't even risk leaving him alive as a man because they KNEW the urge to ship Vi with literally anyone else would be too strong

[sillysalmonn101]

Every single interaction between Caitlyn and vi in season two is saddening and sickening to see. Caitlyn is so quick to get physical whenever she’s even a little bit upset, and Vi just has to accept it because what else can she do? Vi doesn’t have a place to live unless it’s with Caitlyn, she doesn’t have a support system — no, Ekko would not support her after the enforcer nonsense — and she has no connection to her culture or people because she has to completely alienate herself from Zaun to be palatable to Caitlyn.

Caitvi could have been a wonderful representation of abuse in queer relationships, but it wasn’t. The audience is meant to believe that THAT is a healthy relationship dynamic.

"What's ur fav horror movie"

Oh, idk, the face Vi makes when Caitlyn throws a ship at her direction, knowing 1. She's a victim of lifelong abuse and 2. Their last two interactions were violent.

( @loverlesboy I blame u for this/j)