system-voices

[system-voices]

Syscourse:

Someone: (opinion)

Replies: eat shit and die actually

Reblogs: hey I misinterpreted a single word of what you said. Would you like to debate my misinterpretation?

5 Vague posts: (opposite opinion)

Someone else: I just saw that opinion and I wanted to say (more horrible opinion you’ve heard in awhile).

[system-voices]

I find the claim that there's no openly Asian systems in the plural community WILD. I see the assumption that people are white unless they shout from the rooftops that they're not, to be quite racist.

And also just because they're not active in syscourse circles doesn't mean they don't exist at all.

But no one wants to talk about that. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[system-voices]

reminder that "x dni" is not equivalent to "anti x". dni is asking for someone not to interact for whatever reason, from comfort to being annoyed at tag spam, from categorisation to keeping the blog's aesthetic, to just not wanting to interact with that person. those are not equivalent and I'm tired of blogs that pretend that they are the same

[system-voices]

What are closed culture names ?

This is atleast a gathering of what we learned from researching the concept of closed culture names + responses form this post

Section 1. What does “ closed culture mean ? ”

Closed culture: a culture that is specific to a group of people and that outsiders are not allowed to / highly discouraged in participating in . A example would be Hoodoo

A lot of times closed cultures are closed due to outsiders just being unable to understand the complexities of said culture and their traditions .

Section 2. What is a “ closed culture name “

A closed culture name would be a name that is specific to those in a closed culture that outsiders should not use. Usually the names have specific meanings and are given to specific people / have ties in traditions etc ,

Closed cultural names are NOT just names that have POC origins ( like Asian names , African names etc ) which is what usually people try to say online , closed cultural names are very specific and aren’t a concept exclusive to POC cultures

of course very one is able to have differing opinions about sharing culture with others and stuff but trying to claim that all Asian , African , Spanish etc names are “ closed culture names “ is just factually incorrect.

somone using the name ,, Aoi as a non Japanese person is not misusing a closed culture name. Aoi is not a closed culture name it is just a name that happens to have Japanese origins.

anyways uhm yeah rant over hopefully this isn’t confusing ? We tried our very best !/gen

also btw feel free to add on our correct us/gen

-Vee and Link

+ we are sick rn so our thoughts aren’t the best

[system-voices]

👊: I find this response interesting, and helpful! I do, personally, think it's good to remember that despite whatever stance you have on a topic, the "opposing side" of that stance is just a person like you are. And I'd really love to pick these systems brains and see into a side that just can't wrap my head around. (Whether or not I will truly depends on whether or not my host gets psyched out from talking to people.)

I was checking out these blogs just a smidge the night before, and it was nice to see anti-endo blogs not being just a hole of negativity and hatred. While I don't, and probably never will, agree with their stance. It is good on some level to know that there are anti-endos I could have a real conversation with and not someone who's just out to fight me on a topic.

(I just woke up, so, if I'm not making sense I blame it on just now waking up.)

Hi, it's me, Kevin, back at it again with another random take.

I've seen, and heard, plenty of stories- typically from anti-endo's because of course -about endo's being assholes to them. Before they even became anti-endo. About Endo's manipulating people, hell we know someone personally that had an actual endo system try and gaslight them into thinking their trauma never happened.

I do believe these stories. I do, because the unfortunate thing about community is that toxic people will also exist within them. Community is a double edged sword with finding people that understand you extremely well, and also people that will treat you like shit. And to act like the pro-endo community is exempt from that would be foolish. But despite that, we've met and interacted with plenty of good pro-endo systems. Systems that were kind and understanding and let us ask questions.

You know who I have yet to meet? A nice anti-endo, and I will acknowledge that is because I'm a bastard and I've intentionally hit the hornets nest. But I haven't even seen them be nice to each other? They constantly hate and are suspicious of each other and it's mind boggling. I'm not going to act like I'm in any anti-endo spaces so I can't really know, but I think community is only as good as the public interactions you see in it.

It seems like being anti-endo is also being anti-community. When all the pro-endo people have blocked you and left you alone, it's not enough. It seems like you all just don't want systems to be seen or heard, more than anything.

[system-voices]

the thing about anti-endos is that they really only have one "valid" arguement: that endos are faking. and once you take that away they really have nothing because the dsm5 doesn't directly state trauma as a requirement for diagnosis.

no, i do not have did/osdd. no, i am not pretending to have did/osdd. no, i do not want did/osdd. but i am still plural. i've been plural for years, mayhaps my whole life (up until i can remember anyway). so what am i?

even then that is quite loose because there are diagnosed/medically recognized endos, traumaendos, and mixed origin systems. and you cant call that therapist faulty because DID is such an under researched disorder that there are VERY few therapists/doctors that can/want to diagnose it. so the same therapist that diagnosed YOU with DID, also has a high chance of recognising an endo, maybe even diagnosing them. and if they aren't reliable, what does that say about your diagnosis?

and don't even get me started on how broken the physiciatric sytem is. just like the justice system, the physiciatric system harms more people than it helps. It needs reformed. All cops are bastards. Some may be good, but they are still contributing to the system in some way. same with doctors. some may be good, but they still contribute to the system in some way.

i mean, think about it, they almost passed a law where people with DID couldn't get a drivers license, backed up by actual doctors in the field. And I'm pretty sure it is illegal in some places too. The same people don't want people with DID to get jobs or gender affirming care. And again, I do think that is illegal in some places as well.

so why are you fighting endos when you should be fighting for your rights? we're right here beside you.

[system-voices]

Hi, it's me, Kevin, back at it again with another random take.

I've seen, and heard, plenty of stories- typically from anti-endo's because of course -about endo's being assholes to them. Before they even became anti-endo. About Endo's manipulating people, hell we know someone personally that had an actual endo system try and gaslight them into thinking their trauma never happened.

I do believe these stories. I do, because the unfortunate thing about community is that toxic people will also exist within them. Community is a double edged sword with finding people that understand you extremely well, and also people that will treat you like shit. And to act like the pro-endo community is exempt from that would be foolish. But despite that, we've met and interacted with plenty of good pro-endo systems. Systems that were kind and understanding and let us ask questions.

You know who I have yet to meet? A nice anti-endo, and I will acknowledge that is because I'm a bastard and I've intentionally hit the hornets nest. But I haven't even seen them be nice to each other? They constantly hate and are suspicious of each other and it's mind boggling. I'm not going to act like I'm in any anti-endo spaces so I can't really know, but I think community is only as good as the public interactions you see in it.

It seems like being anti-endo is also being anti-community. When all the pro-endo people have blocked you and left you alone, it's not enough. It seems like you all just don't want systems to be seen or heard, more than anything.

[system-voices]

i'm ngl i'm really tired tonight due to some personal problems but aren't y'all tired of interpreting "the experience of oneself as plural is not just a CDD thing due to it being a subjective experience of the self—and one which not all pwCDDs even experience—and not necessarily a disorder (which CDDs ARE. CDDs ARE disorders)" in the worst possible faith.

how do you read "please stop conflating CDDs and plurality when they're separate concepts with overlap. endogenic systems are not claiming to have CDDs" and go "anyway endogenic systems stop claiming to have CDDs".

it's exhausting. purely reactive selective reading at best; intentional bad faith interpretation at worst.

so tired of it. tired of seeing it. right now i have a 66.7% success rate (2/3) of explaining this concept to people. the other 33.3% was someone saying i sounded like a radqueer. which was pretty wild to hear as a trauma survivor with a CDD. the implications of saying that to someone is wild. but alright. yeah. we care about trauma survivors in this house, right?

it's just exhausting at this point. it feels like shriveling up my lungs talking to a brick wall sometimes despite the fact that i know there are people who will listen, and watching other people do the same. it gives such a crushing feeling of hopelessness that no matter how hard anyone tries, this divide will always exist, and will be driven deeper.

aren't you tired? i'm tired.

[system-voices]

what I don't understand about syscourse is: why is only syscourse like this?

like... every other disorder ever happens on a spectrum of "disordered" to "presentation in the non-ill population"

I'm gonna take schizophrenia and schizospec disorders for this, both because CDDs are often mistaken as schizospec (alters mistaken for hallucinations, flashbacks for delusions, skill regression and loss for disorganised speech and behaviour, mood symptoms for negative affect or mania/depression, etc) and also because it's one of the most united communities I've found online

the schizophrenia spectrum is understood to be happening on a spectrum of

schizophrenia / schizoaffective -> delusional disorder / schizophreniform / brief psychotic disorder -> schizotypal personality disorder -> (attenuated psychosis syndrome ->) presentation in the non-ill population

what the fuck does that mean?

schizophrenia and schizoaffective feature all symptoms you can think of when thinking of them - hallucinations, delusions, disorganised behaviour, thoughts and speech, and negative affect (plus major mood episodes in schizoaffective, so a major depressive episode or a manic episode)

not always all of them together but all of them are diagnostic criteria. they also have a longer duration and generally - not always - more severe symptoms.

delusional disorder and brief psychotic disorder feature less symptoms - namely they don't feature negative symptoms, and delusional disorder only features delusions as the name... suggests. brief psychotic disorder also states that the person must have a full return in functionality after the episode (1 day to 1 month in duration)

schizophreniform is on a thin line. it features all symptoms of schizophrenia minus the duration - 1 month to 6 months, vs 6+ months for schizophrenia. it's usually diagnosed when psychiatrists aren't sure whether the duration qualifies for schizophrenia or not, so it's a temporary diagnosis to wait it out and see if the symptoms resolve after 6 months or are enduring.

schizotypal is both on the schizophrenia spectrum and a personality disorder. full psychotic episodes are fairly rare and I get them under stress, usually a traumatic flashback. it's more about how it relates to others and sense of identity - the personality features.

attenuated psychosis syndrome is not officially recognised in the DSM-V, it's in "conditions for further study". it's still interesting to me because it blurs the lines between psychotic and non-psychotic even more. it features quasi-psychotic symptoms that are distressing enough to be disordered, but never get severe enough to qualify to a schizospec disorder. I would love to find out more about it personally if it ever were to be included in the official diagnosis, or if there are studies on similar phenomena

"in the non-ill population" means that experiencing symptoms alone, without impairment or distress, is not enough for a diagnosis. you're someone who experiences hallucinations, delusions etc but you don't have a schizospec disorder or another disorder that could cause the symptom (such as bipolar, major depression, a personality disorder)

however... what was it all about?

the schizophrenia spectrum is so, so diverse. someone who's been hallucinating for 2 days and has no other impairment is as psychotic as a severely schizophrenic person who's homeless, without a job, can't take care of themselves on their own, etc is

it would be stupid and pointless to kick one out. schizophrenia and schizoaffective aren't less diagnosed because non-ill psychotic people exist. there's no pushback against diagnosis of schizospec disorders. there is no "anti non-schizospec psychotics" community. r/schizophrenia is inclusive and wonderful, it specifically includes schizotypals and psychotics with or without a disorder, and non-psychotic loved ones, and researchers who'd like to talk to psychotics first-hand

why are we still doing this?

"endos are pushing research on CDDs back!" how would they do that? is there a billionaire endo lobby somewhere that can take decisions on mental healthcare?

"if you change opinions the anti endo community may welcome you" this was just vile to read

"endos are just in denial" they could be? most likely they aren't though. lots are very aware they're traumatised but also that their plurality wasn't caused by trauma. also for anything to be a disorder, it must be disordered. if they're not bothered by their symptoms and they're not impaired, they don't have a CDD. or a disorder of any kind for that matter. easy

this is just so fucking stupid. we will never achieve anything in the real world if we can't even agree on who the enemy is (it's not endos. it's ableism in the real world that has tangible consequences)

[system-voices]

Changing mindsets, from a Real Anti Endo™️

The Release of the (Pro/Endo) Golden Goose

I hope everyone from all sides will give this important, heartfelt post a read.

It's likely something you'll want to be aware of if you have a vested interest in syscourse and the validity of endogenic systems. Please give this a chance.

It's been almost three years since I started my blogs. Wow. I've been on tumblr a hell of a lot longer, but I really wasn't involved in the system community. I started out firm and loud. I probably inadvertently fakeclaimed (I went into this with the rule that I would NOT directly tell anyone they were faking, it was a boundary that I knew would ruin me socially if I crossed it, but I'm sure I probably did without meaning to), I name called and made fun of people and things. I was disrespectful to people. I invaded tags to get my message out there, though I was quick to stop once I realized I was making the tags unusable for the community I claimed to want to protect.

I learned very quickly what was appropriate and what wasn't, what I could get away with and what I couldn't. It started to become a numbers game, influenced by the risk of the post.

I made a lot of friends and a lot of enemies, and I amassed a following of over 2k. More people have come and gone from my little community than I ever thought possible. People made fanart of me, and I cherish those so deeply. I have over 300 asks because I struggle to delete the ones thanking me.

And the more I was thanked, the nicer I got, the more thanks, the nicer I got, rinse and repeat until I had trouble NOT empathizing with pro/endos. The more I was willing to listen, the more legitimate sources I came across that disproved my original ideas about consciousness. The people sharing the sources were more respectful than I thought they'd be. Things were starting to look a bit cloudy.

I talked to my colleagues about how they, as therapists, would handle some of these endos in their practice, and while their belief in the concept varied, kindness and attempts to understand was the consistent answer. When had I lost that kindness and understanding that had driven me to that field to begin with?

Colleagues, yes. For those who don't know, I have a degree in social services and counselling (plus three other degrees). It's why the current situation with the antis turning on me is so funny. I still can't get into the mindset of some of these new anti endos, I just can't imagine justifying that level of cruelty. I had lines that I wouldn't cross, and I didn't think people could be worse than me.

... That might have been a trauma thing, looking back on it.

So I got desperate.

I spoke to the actual doctors who wrote some of these papers all of us are quoting. Everyone was arguing the meaning of the words, so I went directly to the source.

Dr Colin Ross, who wrote about endogenous multiplicity in the 80s. I told him everything-- about plurals, non-traumagenic systems, syscourse, what was being debated, how I and others interpreted his words, and what I wanted to learn.

Was plurality only trauma based?

And back and forth and back and forth we went, with me asking over and over again in different ways, NEEDING to hear that it was.

But I never got that answer. He meant what he meant. He said what he said and he meant it.

That plurality was not only found in the aftermath of trauma.

And I said nothing to anyone because I couldn't reconcile it.

Don't try to read between the lines, I assure you, there isn't some hidden meaning to be found there. I can't share all of the messages because some contained personal information, but my final response will tell you all you need to know.

(It did NOT, in fact, make sense, and it took me three years to "rethink my paper" that endogenic plurality wasn't possible, I did not win that conversation, it was a dying stance that was not supported)

I've been accused of paying too much attention to my follower count, but I can't really help it. It's really scary when you make a post and see a sizeable drop. It means a lot of different things. My posts have less reach and support. I've upset people. I've done something wrong. My community is leaving me.

I'm in a weird spot, where I'm blocked by so much of the pro/endo community that I have nothing to join, and the anti endo community, who I still wholeheartedly support, continues to leave me for -checks smudged writing on hand- being too nice??

Misinformation about DID is a massive problem, and it's why I still consider myself anti endo and support that community. I relate to them in such a way that I'll always gravitate to and empathize with them.

Or at least, that's what I thought.

At this point, though, how can I not be pro/endo when Colin fucking Ross says it's possible?

I've already written about how I'm really struggling with these labels, and I love the people that have stuck around while I struggle to figure this out.

I hurt when I see the people that once supported me leave.

My (online) world is shrinking. Literally.

That's scary.

When you've watched so many turn away, you start to wonder, with every post, where is the line where the rest are going to leave? Is it this post?

I just want to be me, us, we want to laugh at the stupid crap people say, system or not, I want to talk about my disorder, I want to combat misinformation, I want to have productive, fun conversations about ideas and concepts with people who disagree and have different interpretations. I want to play devil's advocate and get people thinking. I want to be able to comment positivity and kindness on any post I see, I want to feel comfortable talking to more people about their ideas. I sympathize with anti endos, I relate to CDD systems, I still firmly believe that CDDs and plurality are different, unrelated concepts.

My priority will always and forever be the CDD community first and foremost.

However, I am a hypocrite. I have gone straight to the horse's mouth and failed. I've seen so much research that I finally get it. I'm grappling with holding on to this conversation with Dr Ross, wondering what harm I could have prevented if I'd gone public with these emails earlier.

Since when has being open to change been a bad thing?

Since when has showing respect to lived experiences been a bad thing?

What am I? What label describes this?

How do I go forward from here?

What are you going to do with this information?

I promise you, hate isn't the way forward.

[system-voices]

I get that it's nice and very good when your mental experiences whether good or bad or neutral or something else get validated by science but can we like. not making it about being validated by science

I appreciate that endogenic plurality is backed up by science but even if it wasn't what about it would mean it's fake exactly?

a shit ton of things aren't scientifically proven, like being otherkin which is entirely up to the person to figure out whether they're otherkin and if they are their own explanations for it, purely psychological, spiritual, etc. I believe it when people tell me they're otherkin because it's really not my business to go tell them they're faking it for whatever reason.

and like... I really fucking hate it when fakeclaiming turns into armchair diagnosis. diagnosing people with munchausen or claiming they're malingering when none of these apply to endogenic plurality, since both state the person must have something to gain out of faking their symptoms, which could be money, getting an insanity plea to not go to jail, etc. but it must be something very fucking tangible and not like "well they're stealing resources!"

it's a book that's for free on the internet if you pirate it and nobody cares if you pirate it.

it's a discord server that will kick them anyway if its for traumagenic systems only or anti endo, plus if I were endo I wouldn't be entering that space in the first place since it would only get me harassed.

it's a list of therapist who are specialised in dissociative and trauma disorders which I may be the only one in this, but if someone needs that kind of therapy, maybe it's because they actually need it.

etc etc

maybe I give too little fucks about anything but. I just don't see the reason why "it's not scientifically proven" would be good grounds to say something is fake it just doesn't make sense to me?

[system-voices]

It's crazy how people (coughs anti Endos) seem all ready to debate and argue about hills they're willing to die on but when I'm actually asking a genuine question about their thought process they don't want to say a word.

Everyone wants to talk until someone actually leads the conversation. I'm just saying. - 👊

[system-voices]

Hello sysconversation! I'm a massive fan of this tag being coined, I think there's a lot of room for some really great discussion here, so I'm gonna try to kickstart a conversation myself!

I'm a traumagenic DID system. I experience a lot of denial. But you know what really really helps me? The existence of endo systems. No I'm not kidding.

Because I can say oh I must be faking this disorder. It must not be real. But I also believe that intentional systems are 100% real and that they exist, so... even if I don't have DID, I'm still creating my system right now. I'm real. My parts are real. No matter what disorders we do or don't have.

If you're traumagenic you ever been helped in some way by endo systems and/or their resources? If you're endogenic, have you ever been helped in some ways by traumagenic systems and/or their resources? We talk all the time about how we're different, I think it'd be great to have a chat about how we can be alike and how the intersection of our communities can help each other!

[system-voices]

Go research the disorder you so proudly claim you have without even the main qualification for the disorder

This is a TRAUMA DISORDER, not some cute little thing that happens randomly where you get “fwiends in your head!” You need trauma, and lots of it in your early childhood to even have a chance at developing the disorder.

“Pro endo culture” is educating yourself and shutting up

pro endo culture is...getting shit like this!

(psst...you know im traumagenic right?)

[system-voices]

new reaction image

[system-voices]

[system-voices]

Be Openly Scary

Society is scared of a lot of things it shouldn't be. A lot of those things can't be helped, a lot of those things don't hurt anyone, and a lot of those things are not what people even think they truly are.

So you know what?

Talk about your hallucinations, your delusions, your psychotic symptoms. Share things about your gender identity whether it be nonconforming, trans, xenogender or anything else. Scream about your nonhumanity and animal urges. Be open and unwavering about your systems existence, presenting as more-than-one wherever you want. Use and introduce your pronouns, even if people find them weird or offputting. Rock back and forth, pace, twitch and stim in any way you please. Wear things that reflect your identity in public. Get tattoos and body mods to your heart's content. Tell people about your personality disorders.

Don't make yourself small because others can't handle you. Be open where safe. Be you. Be scary.