#Bit of a tangent but I really don't get the whole redemption arc thing for Berdly

[trg-deltarune-quotes]

Berdly dose not need a redemption arc

I would like to prefix this by stating that I am NOT trying to excuse his actions. He is very much a prick and has a hard time listening to Noelle’s honest thoughts and opinion, but I don’t think these are good enough reasons to constitute a redemption arc for him, because outside of these flaws he has a lot more redeeming qualities. 

One of his prevalent traits is that he is diligent, hardworking, and honest. Across the two chapters we learn that Berdly has two jobs, a volunteer job at the library and a job with Ms. Boom, so far we’ve only seen him at the library but this shows that he isn't lazy and takes his job seriously.

This also shows that he is quite an honest person. When it comes to other people he might misinterpret their intentions but his assessment of their personality and how they act aren’t wrong. He wasn’t lying about his motivations and although he makes excuses for why he sucks at everything he never gives up trying to overcome an obstacle or complete his objective.

Berdly misinterprets Kris pranks on him.

Berdly making excuses for why he couldn’t solve the puzzle.

When he keeps his limits in mind and is willing to help out with the group he can be pretty smart. He has a good memory which helps out with the plan he comes up with. A plan which actually got them farther than just brute forcing their way through.

The plan fails but it does show that he isn't as dumb as he thinks he is.

These traits don’t automatically make him a good person, villains can have similar traits as the heroes afterall, but Berdly is morally sound as well.

In the spamton sweepstakes, Berdly accidentally deletes his minecrap game and has to fix it with the help of Kris. Instead of boasting about how he fixed it all by himself he admits that he got help from them.

And in chapter two when Berdly shows off the statue to Queen and Kris he specifically says to Kris to admire OUR artisanship (skill in a particular craft). 

In the next room over we learn that Sweet cap'n cakes help make the statue.

This shows that Berdly is willing to give credit where credit is due even if he sees everybody as intellectually inferior.

Throughout the entirety of chapter 2 Berdly is constantly trying to keep Noelle safe, that’s part of the reason he was working for Queen in the first place.

The other reason was to make a happy world for the both of them by creating a dark fountain. Noelle even says this herself after the ferris wheel ride.

He even pretended to have romantic feelings for Noelle so she wouldn't be sad.

While he does misinterpret her feelings as being towards him Berdly doesn’t force a kiss on her. Outside of leading her on he never once tries to take control away from Noelle or make her uncomfortable. In his mind Noelle is the one who has to make the decision to admit her love to him, not the other way around. Even when he does have a crush on someone he doesn't force a kiss on them, the control is always in the other person's favor.

He puckers up but that’s as far as he goes and when it doesn’t work he backs off.

All this shows that Berdly loves Noelle and wants to be supportive as much as possible. And while their friendship IS messy and could use some work, at the end of the day they ultimately care about each other.

If Berdly only cared about what Noelle could do for him, why does he ask Noelle how she’s getting stronger instead of why during the snowgrave route?

It’d be counterintuitive of him to let her get stronger since it would mean she could stand up to him and call him out on his bullshit.

When she is assertive and expresses her true feelings on Berdlys idea during the normal route, he’s shocked but he accepts this side of her pretty quickly.

When all is said and done Berdly comes off more as a well meaning but misguided character, far from somebody who needs a redemption arc. His intentions were never malicious and the flaws he does have are easily fixable. While in the light world it’ll take a bit of time to relearn everything, if his final few lines are anything to go by it probably won’t take that long.

[k-s-morgan]

Hi! This isn’t an ask, but more of a rambling that I deemed too long for the comments, that stems from your post claiming Book of Circus as your favourite Black Butler episodes. and to that I say - YES. Book of Murder is a masterpiece. It houses one of my favourite scenes - the one where Sebastian says: "This wasn't a scenario decided by God or fate, but one decided on by my master, with timing decided by my master. I was killed by the criminal expected by my master, by the Hione who came to torment my master", which really captures the essence of whole 'Ciel vs God' dynamic that's woven into the duration of the show.

Throughout the plot, there are three major instances in which an offering is made to Ciel - offerings of redemption. The first is from Angela - a chance to purify himself and have an afterlife - which he so vehemently rejects in the knowledge that he quite literally *is* his darkness, and therefore refuses to rid himself of it.

The second is comes from Abberline in his death, where in his final words he tells Ciel he has a chance to take back his future. And Ciel has to watch him die with the knowledge that he has already made up his mind about his fate. I don't think he's so affected because he regrets selling his soul. I don't think he suddenly wants to live, or no longer wishes for revenge. But I believe the reason he is so affected by Abberline's death is because he holds a sentimentality for him that is not dissimilar to the one he feels for Elizabeth. Ciel is cruel, I don't think he regrets the steps he has taken to get to this point, nor the ones he knows he must take in the future. But though he is cruel, I believe he has a sort of fond curiosity for the untainted goodness that characterises those like Abberline and Elizabeth. Like you said before, he feels condescension towards the man perhaps due to the naivety his blind heroism implies, but I think his attachments to him come from an underlying curiosity to see if such goodness can exist in such a corrupted world - a silent hope to be proven wrong in his cynicism. When Abberline dies, that very hope he didn't even know he had gets shattered. It brings about a sort of forced perspective that makes Ciel question himself in ways we haven't seen before.

Abberline's death had been avoidable and it was certainly in vain. Abberline had died for someone who had already made up his mind - someone who had rejected God once before and would do it time and time again as proven in the anime. Ciel is such an interesting character because, although he is dark, he still values the light and makes some sort of effort to preserve it in spite of the contempt he feels for them. It is the thought of dying in vain that seems to bother him so greatly, not death itself. No, Abberline dying isn't enough for him to want to live again, or to even think about throwing away his revenge - that was never in question. But it is enough to extinguish the lingering flicker of hope he had for humanity (despite being so distanced from term himself).

This, combined with the disappointment he feels at Sebastian's actions, causes the existential haze of uncertainty that leads to the third and final offering. And the most surprising thing is that this offering comes from Sebastian himself. He senses the doubt in Ciel and, like every thought the boy experiences, fails to understand it. He mistakes it for him second-guessing his revenge and decides to discontinue their contract. But he isn't angry - that much is clear. Instead, he wishes him to "forget everything and have pleasant dreams", with a rather wistful expression on his face. What this line ends up reading as is a bittersweet  goodbye from the demon - an offering for Ciel to let go of his revenge and find happiness in the afterlife with his now soon approaching death.  There is almost a strong disappointment in him, but is not resentful of it - Ciel is human and he can't keep expecting him not to be. His offering almost acts as a thank you for the moments of excitement their contract had given his monotone life and I believe that is why he makes it.

He sticks around to see if Ciel accepts his offer, though already expecting him to, and is there to witness the very moment the boy rejects it. Gone is the uncertainty of Abberline's death and the Paris crisis, and Ciel, the Earl of Phantomhive, returns to him - sharper, colder, more ruthless than ever. Sebastian realises his misjudgement and returns to his side, ready for the final battle. Killing an angel. It's laughably symbolic.

The rejections of God, the evasion of the Hope Diamond's curse (where he even wore two rings as if to taunt the fates), the references in Book of Murder - they all depict this metaphorical sort of battle between Ciel and God. And the ending of Kuroshitsuji II is the depicts how he triumphs over fate, claiming his rightful place as an immortalised creature of Hell.

I know I've gone on a bit of a tangent here in your inbox, but that one quote from Book of Murder is so symbolic to me in the way it sets up the comparison between Ciel and God (in which 'God' represents power over fate).

Before I sign off, though, I just want to make light of the existence of the show's final offering, occurring in the last few minutes of the series. This last offering has nothing too do with God, nothing to do with any complex battle between the Phantomhive and fate, but is much simpler than that. In fact, the final offering of the show comes from Ciel, and he gives it to Sebastian - it's almost poetic, is it not?

"Are you sure you don't want to pull it any tighter?"

In this single, unassuming line, Ciel is asking Sebastian if he wants to kill him, and release himself from the eternal contract they've found themselves in. Such a noble and dignified soul as Ciel would always be sure to make through on his word and, despite the loophole that now extends their contract, he would still be willing to let Sebastian kill him should he wish to do so. The man may no longer be able to take his soul, but the boy can still give the order to kill him and free himself. Ciel's respect for Sebastian is complex and contradictory at times, but what never changes is his willingness to die by his hands and see through to his side of the contract.

“Is it over? The one who plunged me into bottomless darkness… I don’t even know why she did it.”

In the episode where Angela is crushed by the Church, Ciel offers his soul to Sebastian. Even when unsatisfied with the result, his unwavering nobility led him to make good on their deal and fulfil his end of the contract. The earl faced the demon, his expression calm, and with a steady voice said “A promise is a promise. Take it.”

This unwavering dignity and nobility he holds in himself I believe is the reason for this offering and Sebastian's turn to reject it is almost a 'love confession' (as you have brought me to see it) in itself.

As a final sort of note - I just wanted to let you know that, since reading your reply to my comment on TGSTLTH (from a while ago), I brought myself to rewatch Kuroshitsuji II with your interpretation in mind and ended up really enjoying it. You've singlehandedly made me do a complete 180 on a season I previously hated - looks like I had just watched it from the wrong perspective. So, for that, I thank you

Hey! Sorry for getting to your ask just now. I absolutely loved it :D And yes, Book of Murder is a masterpiece - I still remember watching it for the first time. It was late at night, I had to go to bed, everyone was sleeping, but I kept watching because stopping just wasn't an option, I had to know what happened next.

Ciel vs God is such an interesting topic. In some ways, Ciel and Sebastian exist in their own universe where there is no place for anyone else. There is a God aka Ciel and a demon aka Sebastian. And they are both allies and adversaries at the same time - they are tormenting each other and uniting to torment others.

I agree absolutely that Ciel holds a fondness for certain people, with Lizzy and Abberline being a good example. He has a degree of contempt and irritation for them, but they do mean something to him. Ciel's curiosity is a big and detached thing, and this places him on Sebastian's level in such an interesting way because sometimes it's almost like Ciel isn't human himself - humanity intrigues him as if he doesn't belong to it. His fascination with the light just underlines his affinity with the darkness.

I have many thoughts about Ciel's behavior during the days following Abberline's death, and you certainly introduced many excellent points! My general opinion on Ciel's motives is... complicated. I agree that he never felt like really giving up his revenge and trying to live a 'happy' life - he knew it's not for him at that stage already. However, I feel like Abberline's parting words affected him a lot, even if briefly. When Abberline tells him that he can start everything from the beginning, Ciel sounds absolutely heartbroken when he confesses, "I don't have a future." The way he acts later, telling Sebastian to stop and not kill the angel, hesitating, reinforces this idea to me. I think you described it best - Ciel is having an existential crisis. It's not like he suddenly regrets his decisions, but he's temporary unanchored and unsure what he wants and what he should do. Having a dream where Abberline urges him to give up his hatred also seems to affect Ciel, but it's so telling that he wakes up and immediately says, "Sebastian." It's a fascinating arc and I can't wait to explore it.

I love your words about three offerings - so true. And I'm so happy you liked S2 when watching it from a new perspective! I used to be so confused as to why people hated it: it's not perfect, but I thought it was amazing in many ways, especially its bittersweet ending.

[bakugaykatsukii]

I Talk About Bakugou Because I'm Bored

Bakugou. He's best boy. My son.

No, actually, I'mma explain in as few words as possible why I absolutely adore his character.

Oops this got long.

Okay, so it's the first chapter/episode (I'll go off the anime because it's practically identical and more widespread) and it opens with Deku narrating. This is to establish an immediate connection between the audience and the main protagonist; it conveys how important Deku is. Plenty of shows do this so it's not really a big deal, just common practise. HOWEVER, the second character we hear speak is Bakugou, who is insulting Deku.

This is framed in a way that's supposed to make us dislike him, and continues all throughout the first episode. He's presented as a four year old trying to beat up our main character, and then his next scene is being ten years older and Still Trying To Beat Up Our Main Character. This makes him seem rotten to the core, as his character hasn't changed whatsoever in that time, and as an audience we know very little information about him.

On top of that, within this first episode he is deliberately made to have no redeeming qualities, nothing that could make him sympathetic in any way. The Sludge Villain fiasco isn't until ep2, and in this one he literally tells Deku to kill himself, reaching peak middle school bully. He destroys something the Main Protagonist clearly treasures and is privelaged in every conceivable way, even his (later obviously intense) desire to be a hero is simplified to monetary gain, with "I'll be even richer than All Might himself!!!" (or something to that effect). Later on I'd explain such a line to be a result of young Baku trying to quantify his future success, something he never mentions again after the Sludge Villain.

In these first twenty minutes of the anime, he's been absolutely dragged through the mud. Not only is he this arrogant, selfish, mean bully, he's also the sort of bully we can all relate to having, making him even more dislikable! It's so easy for an audience to write him off as irredeemable almost immediately.

But then comes ep2. Seasoned anime watchers likely brush over some small details, but the fact that the Sludge Villain attack happens when Bakugou is 14? Wow. At this point no one likes him, and to many people seeing this happen could come across as a sort of karmic punishment, deserving and therefore less sympathetic. And so Horikoshi succeeds in continuing to make him dislikable but also adding depth to this character who so clearly believed he was invincible.

However, any such depth is pretty much ignored by the audience. I've watched many reactions, and, at this point, due to Bakugou's sub par personality, most people don't care about what happened upon first viewing. To be fair, it's treated as background until Deku steps in and proves himself a hero, at which point he's promised a quirk and That's all anyone can think about.

(also there's some symbolism in this ep because Bakugou and Deku were both attacked by the Sludge Villain and saved by All Might, showing they are actually equals in character and have a lot in common.)

Anyway, so for the first few episodes no one gives two shits about Bakugou because he's meant to be dislikable. He's set up to be as bad as possible without needing to be arrested/never being redeemable. Yet, he's also not clearly set up to be redeemed whatsoever. Let me explain:

Quick break from bnha to head over to atla, Zuko is the perfect redemption arc. And some of that can be attributed to his presentation in the first few episodes: where he's portrayed as antagonistic but still honourable, and has a tragic past. He's the sort of character you know isn't actually bad at heart. But Bakugou hasn't got any tragic back story to speak of, and certainly isn't honourable, so we don't expect a redemption.

That's so interesting to me, because it basically means his character could go in any direction but most shounen fans expect him to be the typical rival. He's mean now and will be mean later, nbd. Will probably betray Deku in order to gain more power. That sort of stuff.

But, as the first season progresses, we're shown that Bakugou (on top of all of his anger issues and cruelty) is also so incredibly determined, to the point where it's harmful. A lot of people, even in season three, expect him to accept the LoV's offer, but as early as ep7 he's shown to be dedicated to being the best on his own. He utterly fails at pretending to be a villain, and doesn't manage to work with his "villain" teammate. When the USJ attack rolls around, he fights alongside Deku.

I feel like I've just word babbled for a while so here's a picture:

Isn't that adorable? Anyway, I continue.

Okay, recap: Bakugou is presented initially as bad and in no way sympathetic, but throughout season one some of his good qualities do get highlighted.

The Sports Festival is probably when I was most on edge about who my favourite character was. Todoroki vs Deku vs Bakugou was a whole internal debate. We all know who eventually won though. Point is, this is the first time Bakugou is supposed to seem likeable.

Like, yes, he helped out at the USJ, but he was still reckless and angry about it. In this arc his flaws stop seeming so antagonistic (even though he's now more at odds with 1-A than he's ever been) and are framed humorously; if you think about it, the only times you're not rooting for Bakugou in this whole arc is when you're laughing at his antics. He stops seeming like a massive unforgivable bully and becomes a secondary threat behind Todoroki, even though he ultimately wins the Festival.

One of the first things he does in the season is tell people messing with their class go away, albeit bluntly, and is then complimented for it by Kirishima, who is the nicest guy in the class! No longer are we supposed to necessarily dislike him, as he's being developed after all of season 1. Him saying "I'm gonna win" as his speach is expected by the audience and laughed at- absolutely nobody watching was scared he'd hurt Deku in some terrible way due to it.

The cavalry battle demonstrates that he can work in a team after some adjustment time, and he gets his own antagonist (Monoma) who we all root against! This makes us closer to his character, as in a way we have a common enemy.

Then obviously the single battles are super interesting, his one against Uraraka especially turning people to his side. Since Aizawa, who as an audience we trust after his actions at the USJ, backs up Bakugou's actions, we accept them as the right thing to have done. Especially since Bakugou later calls Uraraka "not fragile", demonstrating that he can respect people and actually isn't as discriminatory as his earlier actions against Deku might lead one to believe. Everything about this fight is pure gold.

The rest of his fights are also very interesting, so let me go off on a little tangent. He's the only person to 1) be uninjured by the end of the festival (he did win tho so...) and 2) he's the only person to win all of his fights by forcing his opponent into submission. He knocks out Uraraka and Kirishima, goes to knock out Tokoyami but has him give up instead and then knocks out Todoroki! His fights are so much more violent than the others, who are primarily trying to win by pushing their opponent out of the ring or by immobilising them, which could make him come across as more aggressive (which he is). But it actually works for his character considering the way he demonstrates respect is by giving his all, therefore in order to show he cares about these fights he has to go for absolutely decimating the person against him.

Also, interesting side note to all that, out of our main three festival contenders, Bakugou is the only one who actually needs to use the festival for its intended purpose: impressing scouts. Todoroki, as the son of Endeavour, is already known throughout the hero community as a promising young talent, and could even get the No2 hero to coach him if he so wished. Deku even says himself that he doesn't necessarily need to get scouted when All Might is already teaching him. Out of the three Bakugou has the most incentive to actually show off here, no guilt/baggage required.

Anyway blah Stain arc blah. Bakugou picks Jeanist to intern with, which many might think makes him shallow. Their quirks are in no way similar and their images are almost diametrically opposing, and Bakugou only chose him because he's such a highly ranked hero. However, I believe the creators crafted this pairing in order to convey how good of a future hero Bakugou promises to be. BJ, in these episodes, is all talk. He's such a superficial hero that, in order to rectify Bakugou's foul personality, he gives him a haircut. He demonstrates the arrogant nature that Stain hates so much. Meanwhile, Bakugou ignores him and is still arrogant in his own way, obviously, but not for anything other than his own pride. He, when you break it down, spends all of his time working towards a genuinely good goal, just to prove to himself that he's worthy- no desire for fans or fame in there, he wants success but isn't actually looking for any of the perks that come with it. This, imo, makes him better than BJ. Also, Bakugou never actually says he is working with BJ due to his rank and could be doing it because their quirks botha require so much time, practice and effort.

Okay, so, now for the final exams. This is where I decided he was my favourite. He works with Deku etc and proves to the audience that he can work with him and won't necessarily become a villain, plus All Might lets loose a little and proves he too can be violent and mean.

What I really love is about ep24 s2 is actually the bit that makes a lot of people chuckle: where Bakugou bites AM's hand. This kid has been giving his absolute all, putting every ounce of strength into beating his idol, because, lbh, his self worth depends on his success here, until he literally cannot raise his arms to punch anymore. And yet, he still refuses to go down, despite every odd against him. Something about that tenacity is just so incredible to me.

It's almost 1am, let's have another break, shall we?

Idk I thought it was funny when it came onto my dash.

Btw, it's now I wish I knew how to hide most of a post lololol.

Season three is just Baku's season, ngl. Like,,, so many of his Stans got their start here, and it's not hard to tell why. A big reason why Bakugou felt irredeemable was because he had no reason to be so mean, but the narrative makes up for that by then putting him through so many bad experiences.

There's been a million metas on why he's so perfect in this season, and this is already abhorrently long, but ah well.

Okay so he's captured by the League through no fault of his own. As the audience when we find out Bakugou is missing we immediately think he's done the dumb thing and gone off on his own, but it's quickly revealed that he's already been kidnapped. Tokoyami is also taken, cementing that the LoV are looking for kids with some villainous feature, but also showing that their perception of what makes a child villainous is skewed, since we know Tokoyami is good.

At the hideout Baku is entirely restrained and silent, so clearly against his will. If we remember every other time he's been restrained (so goddamn many) we'll think back to the Sludge Villain, finding out Deku had a quirk, after his *win* against Todoroki and his internship with BJ. In this way, it's obvious to tell that this is all a Bad experience for him, as those were all very negative times in his life. There's no way he'll join them.

None of the pros even consider it a possibility. Aizawa defends him against the press (and, once again, we like Aizawa! So we trust him) and none of his classmates think he could be evil, they're all primarily concerned for his safety. Even BJ, who insinuated that Baku could easily become a villain, doesn't appear to believe he'll turn down that path.

Also Baku is pretty cool when he fights of the villain like I'm ngl.

And then, when he sees All Might? And his face screws up? With his lip trembling? It's undercut with a joke but he's so obviously just a scared/relieved kid in that moment and it's gut wrenching to remember that.

It's really getting late and I'm at 11% here so speed round through the provisional licence exam.

He can tell Shindou is two faced

Even though he's blunt he's still got the instincts and smarts of a hero

The class looks up to him

Aizawa has a lot of favouritism for this child, y'all, how did I not notice this?

His failure here is intrinsic to his character growth as it means he hits absolute rock bottom and we can move onto:

Deku Vs Kacchan 2

Where to even start. The guilt and pain he experiences has made me tear up several times just from thinking about them, and that GODDAMN VOICE CRACK AS HE YELLS nope it hurts too bad.

It's sort of the culmination of every emotional issue Bakugou has exhibited throughout the series. He can't find self worth without constant praise and pressures himself to be unimaginably perfect, to a self destructive point. He has no support system in place to help him with these issues. His anger stops being repetitive/funny/annoying and is finally, clearly shown to be more damaging to himself than to anyone else, as he feels the only way he can deal with his stress and hurt is by lashing out at those who try to help him.

In this fight we also learn why Deku, even though he's Baku's victim, still looks up to him so much. And the whole dynamic is so perfect I might cry rn.

I am annoyed, though, that further than that Baku's mental health has been pretty much entirely ignored for 200 manga chapters. Probably my only complaint about him.

.

.

.

At an entirely selfish level, I can relate to Bakugou. Obviously I'm not a teenage boy with explosion powers who bullies people in order to feel any self worth, but the high standards for himself? The pain at any failures? Being told through childhood how great you are only for it to be torn away in your teens? That's all so painfully relatable to me, and so I feel an even deeper connection with his character.

One last picture to finish off:

[reneereadskingdomofash]

1/8 I really wanted to ask you a question, anonymous because I don't have an account, and anons are off on your main blog so I'm asking on this one! There are no spoilers in this, I promise you. KoA is coming out very very soon, and that means I'll have to do a reread of Tower of Dawn, my favourite in the series. How should I read it? ToD is my favourite because I really love the new characters and worldbuilding. But the main reason is because of Chaol. This book meant a lot to me

its below a cut because its long... 

2/8 because of his healing arc. I didn't even love Chaol that much before this book, though I never really thought he was that annoying. I did think his actions toward Aelin and Nesryn were crazy. But the thing I loved most about the book was the message to stop hating yourself for your mistakes, to forgive yourself, and get up when you fall. It was the Valg darkness that had injured him, wasn't it? And it was feeding off of his pain and regret.3/8He had to face all of it to finally be completely healed when Yrene realised that the Valg weren't just an enemy to fight against, they were something to be healed from. I think his insecurities and regrets, and his feeling that he was a failure, were also just like a parasite. That message that this darkness that doesn't let us go forward, that tells us we're not good enough, is like a parasite, and can literally and figuratively paralyse us, and we have to let go of it, really helped me.4/8 I think we all have those feelings in us sometimes, and they are the real enemy, just as much as the Valg are in this series. Tower of Dawn showed me how to fight them. When I first read the book, I was in a bad place and felt like I had failed everyone, and this book let me heal. Now I'm rereading this series and I'm back in a less-than-healthy place, and this year hasn't been that easy. But I've been thinking a lot about the characters—more specifically, Chaol.5/8 He became my favourite character in this book, but I've read so many reasons why I shouldn't like him, and many ways in which he's problematic. I don't condone all of his actions, but I never really read him as annoying. I can see where they're coming from, though. One of the most well-known metas on Chaol is the one about how ToD wasn't his redemption arc and he didn't really change, and mostly stayed the same idiot. I never really read the book to see him redeemed.6/8 I just liked the message of his healing. Heir of Fire is a very close second to ToD as my favourite, because of both Aelin and Manon's change of view. (Side note: Aelin went through so much in the series and triumphed, so it seemed a really crazy idea to put her in an iron coffin, and give her that feeling that she's failed everyone again. But I think it shows that the path to complete self-acceptance in anyone's journey is never linear. But I digress! Enough about my love for healing arcs.)7/8 The point is, there are many, many valid reasons to dislike Chaol, and so many of the things he's done—not just to Aelin and Nesryn, but throughout the whole series—are pretty stupid. But can't I like the good parts and learn from the bad parts, without condoning them? Are the people who like Chaol better at excusing problematic things or something? The reasons to hate him are all such good reasons, and I acknowledge them. I feel like I should probably start reading him that way too.8/8 I'm sorry for all the rambling in your asks, but my question is: should I do my reread looking for all the reasons why I shouldn't like him, or is it okay to read it my way? I acknowledge the wrong things he's done, but does it make me a bad person to like him anyway? Does liking problematic characters make me a bad person? Is it all right if I didn't read his character as that annoying? I feel very conflicted about this, and that's why I'm asking you.

Hey NONNIE! 

I am so sorry I only just saw this as I came back to tumblr today! My asks are back open on my main btw - or they are supposed to be. :) So I’m first going to say that we all take in books, movies, stories differently.

Sure over time some are deemed to be "less than great" while others triumph and are called the best books of a generation. (and I disagree with a few of those lol).

I like to listen to a lot of different point of views in the tumblr world. But I have learned that people will see what they want to see. 

Read Tower of Dawn how YOU want to read it. 

If Chaol is your fav that’s valid. Even if Maeve was your favourite - that’s Valid too. We can like characters without condoning what they do. We can like stories while knowing that they might contain controversial topics. I loved Tower of Dawn when I first read it. And I Loved it the second time as I read it simultaneously with Empire of Storms.

I'm sure I’m going to go off on a tangent so I apologise if I do.

But its important to read for your own enjoyment. Decide what you think. Decide what you like or don’t like. Its fine. Then if you decide you want more ideas and perspectives then look for them. But don't beat yourself up if you don’t completely agree.

And if your mind changes after a second read - that’s fine too. Opening ourselves to more experiences and stories is what makes us more accepting as a whole - I believe.

So I'm going to focus on your questions before I go on a meta Tangent.

Should I do my reread looking for all the reasons why I shouldn't like him, or is it okay to read it my way? - READ It however you want hun

I acknowledge the wrong things he's done, but does it make me a bad person to like him anyway? NO You are not a bad person Example. My grandfather cheated on my grandmother with another person. He was still my grandad. I still had a relationship with him. I use this story a bit. He did some dumb shit but it never made him a bad person. He did some worse shit to some other people which def could make him a bad person, but he was still my grandad and I loved him. He lived his life and made mistakes and spent a lot of his life trying to atone. WE ARE HUMAN. And I think it actually says a lot about SJM's storytelling abilities to make such complex characters. The older I get - the more I seem to forgive people for some things and condemn them for others. When I was 15 I told my uncle he was going to die if he kept smoking - I was blunt and brutal and didn’t care. Now I wouldn’t say that - but I also wouldn't let my kids be around him while he smokes and I would say that to him instead. He can do what he wants - i’m not there to police his choices. So I guess perspectives change, or how we go about enacting change changes. Anyway You are not a bad person. I am not a bad person.

Does liking problematic characters make me a bad person? um short answer - NOI really like Lorcan. A lot of people don’t and that’s fine. But he's my problematic character I'm stuck on hahaha 

it all right if I didn't read his character as that annoying? Yes because we all make friends with different sorts of people.My best friend is not going to be your best friend. We cant all be the same. Different backgrounds and morals, beliefs etc are going to mesh together and we form friendships. So you can have your best friend and not need everyone else to love them too - the world doesn’t work like that. So loving a book character that other people don’t love is fine too. 

I feel the conflictedness- (I just made that word up its now a word) but honestly. Do what you enjoy. Do what you want to do. Don’t let it get you down. Remember Dorian and Chaol are BFF's so he's gotta be the right best friend for someone and maybe you are just more like Dorian than other people are - ;) right!  hahaha. 

Sorry I’m not sure when u sent this ask, hopefully its not been answered too late. :) 

[basket-of-radiants]

OMG!! I DON'T HATE MOASH EITHER!!!! Like I saw Elhokar dying from a mile away and I wasn't that invested in him. Also, Szeth is annoying? Why do people like Szeth (who literally killed SO MANY PEOPLE! And the rock didn't compel him? It was a normal rock?) and hate Moash?

Oooooookay. There’s. A lot to unpack here. I know you were trying to be relatable, but I reeeeeally disagree with a lot of this. (Let’s see how comprehensible I can be this late at night.)

Like first off and most importantly, how dare you call Szeth annoying, he’s my favorite character. He is a massive murderous disaster with the most edgy and Extra™ POV narration I have ever seen and I love him. (You must be new here; this is basically a Szeth fan blog.)

As for Elhokar, I wouldn’t at all say I wasn’t invested-I quite liked him in Oathbringer and I certainly was not happy that he died. I found his arc to be quite compelling, and even though he was late to the game, I appreciate that he was doing his best to assume responsibility in whatever ways he could. Like I dunno, he admitted his mistakes and worked to improve. Maybe it was too little and too late, I don’t think there’s an objective answer to that kind of thing. I do tend to hold characters who are members of the aristocracy to a higher standard than other characters, and I wouldn’t necessarily say he was a good king yet, but he was certainly trying, and that I would have liked to see. (I wasn’t quite as interested in him becoming a radiant, but that plotline didn’t happen anyway in the end so w/e.) I’m not going to be talking about him much, but please know you don’t need to defend him as a person to me, I already appreciate him.

However I don’t see the need to pick Moash or Elhokar over one another. I can understand why if you liked a character then you would hate whoever killed them, but I’m not really like that. Actually I’m glad you brought up Szeth because he’s a great example of that. I have been in love with him since chapter one. In Words of Radiance he tried-and very nearly succeeded-to murder Dalinar, Adolin, and Kaladin. Of course I hoped he wouldn’t succeed. Of course I wanted them to survive. But even if he had killed one-or hell all-of them, I genuinely believe I would still like him as a character. Part of that is Szeth’s circumstances-I know that he never (welllllll) actually had ill will towards these people and I know he’s already going to suffer for any actions he takes. He knew what the right thing was, and he would have done the wrong thing, knowing it was the wrong thing to do. That’s honestly a lot of what attracts me to his character, he has this web of contradictions that he both hates and depends on and it can be fascinating to watch. I both want him to accept responsibility for his actions and find it hard to blame him for them. Moash on the other hand is in a totally different situation, but I feel like I can apply similar principles to him. If I can still appreciate Szeth’s character in spite of all he’s done, then I feel I can do the same for Moash. I happen to not think Moash’s actions were as objectively bad as a lot of people did, but I’ll get to that later.

One thing I do agree with you on is that Szeth is a worse person than Moash. No seriously, if you want to tell me that Moash is bad because of his actions in Oathbringer, you’ll have to convince me that his actions are so bad that they’re worse than all the killing and destabilizing of entire nations that Szeth has done. Again, I don’t entirely blame Szeth, but it is his fault. And if we’re going by actions alone, then he’s done a hell of a lot worse than quite a lot of characters. That’s fine though, because I don’t judge characters by their actions alone. There’s a reason these are told as nuanced stories with the points of view and feelings of different characters taken into account and not as history textbooks just stating the events that happened.

(Hopefully this all ties together. It’s after 2 am and I have no idea where I’m going with this. Be prepared for tangents.)

So! Let’s talk about Moash.

I’m sure I’m not fully representing all the richness of the anti-Moash arguments here because it seems people have spent a lot of time finding reasons to hate him. I’d guess there are a few main reasons? From what I can tell, they are (in no particular order) betraying Kaladin/Bridge Four, Killing Elhokar, Killing Jez, and the whole denying personal responsibility thing. There’s a also just a lot of general hate and calling him an asshole (which I really don’t get? I don’t think he’s ever just been needlessly cruel or anything, I mean he hates lighteyes but that’s about it) but that’s kind of hard to argue about so whatever. Anyway if those are absolute sticking points for you, and you cannot possibly like a character who did those things, then I guess that’s fine, you do you. I’m mostly just going to set out my interpretation of the character and talk a little bit about my beliefs. It’s not really a defense per se, but it’s how I understand him.

I want to talk about the Alethi. Moash’s character is clearly focused heavily on themes of revenge. We’re already not off to a great start here because I personally do not believe in revenge. I do believe in justice, and I think that for Moash the two are one and the same. I also think that for literally the entirety of Alethi culture the ideas of justice and revenge are one and the same. See, that’s something I am willing to blame on circumstance. It’s not just the Alethi, all across Roshar violent crimes (which I would consider the deaths of Moash’s grandparents to be) can be punished by execution, and while, again, I disagree, it’s indisputably the cultural norm. (The act of forgiveness that characters like Kaladin were showing is a radical thing.) In terms of Moash’s vengeance, I find it really hard to condemn that when he’s trying to kill just one guy, if we’re not also going to massively get on Dalinar’s case and Elhokar’s case and fucking everyone else’s case for waging a six year genocide war on the Parshendi for the sake of revenge. Violence is an Alethi cultural value-it has repulsed me since day one but it’s very much undenyable.

That’s just something to mull on, it’s honestly not even one of the more major factors in terms of how I view Moash. His revenge aspect in Oathbringer was less interesting to me than other aspects of him, but as that is a part of his character, I wanted to first set aside why I can…well, set it aside.

In Words of Radiance, Kaladin very much sympathized with Moash. Not only that, he legitimately felt Moash was in the right for a considerable amount of time. The turning point for Kaladin was coming to the realization that Elhokar was an important person to Dalinar, which is all well and good, but it doesn’t actually address these underlying contradictions. I actually found that very frustrating at the time when I read it, so I might not be the most objective judge when it comes to Moash’s betrayal. I do know that before Elhokar’s assassination attempt, Moash had not gone forward with anything until Kaladin was on board. And he didn’t know that Kaladin was “off board” until he was already in the middle of the act. Kaladin, to his credit, did offer him an out, but for someone like Moash who had been working tirelessly in anticipation of this moment…I can understand why he wasn’t that receptive then and there. Moash certainly threw the first punch, but he also felt betrayed in that moment. In Oathbringer, at the core of his anger, there was the thought “Kaladin was protecting a murderer” which was how the whole scene had seemed framed to him. Perspective is crucial for understanding Moash. I guess think if Kaladin’s best friend, after learning the truth about Amaram and all he’d done and acknowledging that it was horrible, had at the last moment put their life on the line to protect him. In the end, Moash still felt terrible about having hurt Kaladin and Kaladin had felt terrible about letting Moash get to that point. Both of them regretted everything having to do with the assassination attempt when they went their separate ways.

I don’t know if it seems like I’m taking Moash’s side here, because I’m honestly not trying to do that, I honestly don’t view it as “sides” I view it as two different characters deserving of understanding.

But again! I actually tend not to think about Elhokar’s death in terms of revenge as much as one might expect!

Next I would like to talk about the circumstances under which Elhokar was killed. Because…it was a battle, you know? People on both sides were killing people on both sides. Moash killed Elhokar, but someone else could have been the hand to hold the spear just as easily. I don’t think there was coincidence, I do think that Moash was intentionally seeking to kill Elhokar once he realized he was there. But here’s my super controversial take? In that kind of situation, revenge or not, I don’t even think he was wrong to do so. Moash’s goal was to help and serve the soldiers on his (the singers’) side. If Elhokar had lived, they would have had a shardbearer and another radiant to have to deal with. Lots of named characters in that scene (god that scene was so sad to read) killed lots of named characters on both sides. If Elhokar’s side had gained the upper hand, Khen and Moash probably would have died. In a situation like that, I’m not really sure I can be mad at him for doing a tactically correct move like that, even if his intentions were more personal.

That’s actually…kind of a big distinction between how I view Moash and how a lot of people do. I know there were a lot of people who were holding out for a potential redemption until Moash killed Jez, but I didn’t…exactly…see it as a thing that needed redeeming. I didn’t want Elhokar to die, of course I didn’t, but Moash was a soldier in combat, who just so happened to be faced off against someone he saw (and not necessarily incorrectly at that) as representative of all the discrimination and suffering he’d endured. What do you expect him to do?

Yes, it sucks that he killed Elhokar while he was in the middle of changing, but you can’t honestly expect Moash to know about that.

I mentioned Jez, so let’s start on him next. I will admit, when I was reading Oathbringer, the point at which Moash killed Jez was a very “what the fuck” moment for me. But…honestly the more I think back on it and try to understand him, the more it seems that that was the obvious course of action for him. After all, at that point in the story, I already knew and had accepted that he had defected to the singers’ side. (God his defection is another really fascinating thing actually! And it’s honestly such a huge part in why I care about him even now. I would love to talk a bit about Moash’s relationships with the singers vs the humans in more detail at some point, but this post is probably already way too long. Someone remind me later, I promise the post will be shorter than this one.) He was also literally a slave, but not just that, he was a slave who genuinely wanted the side he was working for to succeed. And also a soldier who had killed before. Honestly, if the fused had asked him to kill someone for them, it would surprise me more if he didn’t do it for them.

I think after he killed Elhokar, Moash was at his lowest point. He was already depressed and really fucked up, but the idealized idea of vengeance deep inside him still had somehow kept him going. Then when he finally got what he had been dreaming of he didn’t feel happy or satisfied or any of that. Not only that, but in having completed his goal he no longer felt he had any purpose. So why not do whatever the fused ask of him? He has no ambition of his own, but he truly believes that once they’re in power, they’ll make a better, fairer society for people in the future. Honestly the more I think about it, the fact that Jez was a herald is all the more reason for Moash to agree to kill him. It provided a very real tactical advantage in a war. I’m not going to touch on whether this act was right or not, but I know that I personally can understand why Moash felt that helping the side of the singers was the right thing to do. And I guess if I can accept that then everything else follows.

As for the personal responsibility thing, I…don’t judge him very much for that. He was a slave, he was dysfunctional and depressed, and his mind kept returning to how he had hurt Kaladin which I’m pretty sure also sort of makes him hate himself. If he needed coping mechanisms to stay alive in that situation, then I’m willing to accept that. Even if he hadn’t had that mindset, he would still be a slave in the exact same situation. And…honestly he’s really not the first character to be in heavy denial over personal responsibility and past actions. I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you about the other examples.

When I was reading Oathbringer my sister and I talked a lot about this worldview, “Alethi society is bad so anything I did when I was a part of it can be written away, because being in that bad society is really what’s to blame.” I will admit I was sort of doing that earlier in this very post, although my intention was more to highlight hypocrisy than anything else. Moash’s denial of personal responsibility probably would have rubbed me the wrong way a lot more if he…didn’t actually take responsibility…all over the place… He stood up for Sah, Khen, etc. when they were being hurt and took it upon himself personally to risk his life to go talk to management and angrily give them constructive criticism on how to make their society fair. He definitely blames his past on the society he lived in, but in the present he was adamant that that had been bad and so the next thing has to be better. Flawed as it may have been, I think it was his way of putting his past behind him and accepting his new life.

Again, not saying that this mentality is good or even justifiable, that’s up to you. I feel that it’s at the very least compelling.

…WHICH! To tie it all together, here’s why I like Moash. In Oathbringer he is a mess of a person, but I still find a lot of nuance and this broken sort of humanity in his actions. I can tell that he still cares about right and wrong, he just feels it’s impossible to find justice in the preexisting human society. (I wanna talk more about his opinions on the singers later.) He definitely did bad things, but he’s not so far gone that I don’t think he’s worth understanding. I don’t necessarily like characters just because they’re good or nice people, they can even be irredeemable people, and maybe Moash is just that. I don’t know. I understand why people would feel that way about him, I really do. But I still find his story compelling, I’m still interested to see what he does next, and against all reason, I’m still hoping he somehow makes it out okay somehow.

It’s like after 3:30, jesus, I need to sleep. Um. Reeeeal quick end notes. This post was mostly me rambling about the bad shit he did in Oathbringer, but I think he did good stuff too! He is a morally grey character and I would go into that more if I weren’t so tired. Uh. I’m sorry for writing so much, I know this probably isn’t what you expect from this kind of blog. If you actually read all this then 1) wow and 2) lmk how comprehensible it was. Also if there’s anything I’m wrong about lmk I do not mind criticism.

Yeah. G’night.