#HRT and other gender affirming care doesn't make you inherently trans

[sirenium]

Remember, it's your life. So...

[Pt: Remember, it's your life. So... end pt]

Go on HRT if you can and want to, regardless of if you're trans or not. Get top surgery. Start packing or tucking. Do whatever you can to make your body comfortable to live in.

[ftmtftm]

I hear anon's pain, but as a VERY dysphoric trans guy who needed both hormones and top surgery to finally feel stable emotionally, it saddens me that anon is shit talking non-dysphoric trans ppl.

One of the people who helped me the most while I recovered from surgery is a non-dysphoric person. They're not our enemy. They're our siblings. It sounds like you've had some terrible experiences with extremists, and I am pissed off for you that someone could say such hurtful things, but becoming the opposite extreme is not helpful. Everyone deserves to have access to gender affirming care, but some people simply don't want medical interventions. And that's also okay.

I'll give a few examples that were key to making me step away from the transmed mentality:

1) I talked with a post-transition woman who had sought all the treatment she wanted. She was non-dysphoric (for the most part - visiting family was hard). I had always been told that dysphoria was a requirement to me trans, but she helped me understand that, once your gender is affirmed enough, the dysphoria doesn't occupy so much of your mind. Dysphoria is not what makes someone trans. Misery is not all we are.

2) My closest friend briefly believed themselves to be trans and sought HRT. She loved some of the effects of testosterone, specifically bottom growth. It helped them reclaim a part of their body that felt dysphoric due to trauma. However, she decided to stop taking T because she identified more with womanhood than manhood. My understanding is that they still feel more androgynous than a cis woman, but do not consider herself to be trans. She did detransition, but not in a transphobic TERFy way. This taught me that being trans is also not a requirement for gender dysphoria. Medical intervention helps cis folks too.

3) After I had been on hormones a while, my gender evolved. I considered myself a man for a long time, while I was steeped in transmed ideology. But when I first heard of being trans, the label I felt drawn to was genderfluid. But as I became an older teen, I settled on being a trans man because I so desperately wanted to be called masculine terms. To have a flat chest, a beard, and deeper voice. But as I started gaining more of these traits, I felt myself wanting to have androgynous features too. Now I call myself by multiple labels. Trans guy, transmasculine, and nonbinary are the "offical" terms I use, but in a sense I still like the genderfluid label! I just never feel like a woman or a girl, unless the song "girls just wanna have fun" comes on, but that's another story lol. But usually I feel fluid in my masculinity. I'm just some guy, but I'm not a man. These days I even do drag! I could never have imagined being this way when I was a transmed, because all I saw was gender as a medical thing that had to be treated. Having fun with my gender made me happier, and I'm so glad I didn't force myself into the "male box"

I may not admittedly understand all xenogenders or neopronouns or whatever else. But I don't have to understand to respect it. As long as they're not actively causing harm, then it's not a problem. The people who have said hurtful things to you ARE a problem, but not inherently because of their gender. They're a problem because they're causing harm. Don't make things worse by causing harm back to others. Break the cycle!

!!!!

[eulangelo]

callout for @genderfluidlucifer

google docs

tw for transmisogyny + TERFs + emotional manipulation

Transmisogyny

Lucifer is a huge transmisogynist who will complain 24/7 about how TERFs hurt the ace community, but the moment @randomclustermissile , a trans girl (who is not an exclusionist at all) tries to point out transmisogyny in inclusionist circles (in the most vague and general way possible, without pointing fingers nor calling anyone names) Lucifer will immediatly jump to block her and so they did with me (another inclusionist) and i have to suppose to everyone else who agreed with that post, even arriving to vagueing about us in private group chats to suggest that we were “sympathizing with exclusionists”. all because we dared point out transmisogyny in inclusionist circles. lucifer is TME but apparently they think they’re the authority on TERFs and their talking points but actual trans women are not, according to them, since this is the stuff that they would go and spew to other people. (screenshots from @enbyoctoling​)

here’s more examples of Lucifer (again, a transmasc person) going deep in detail about how according to them, TERFs/SWERFs hate aro/ace people and are an active threat to us

1. link

[Image ID: Three screenshots of a post by Genderfluidlucifer. The first screenshot is of a paragraph that reads, "Hey. So I can actually answer this. Anon your commentary about how you thought terfs would approve of sex repulsed aces is sort of it. Except...not. Basically terfs hate ace people for not wanting sex in the approved by terfs way. Terfs are actually extremely interested in [forcing] amatonormativity onto everyone. Because for as sex negative as terfs are...they don't want to actually acknowledge or change the fact that amatonormativity is at the root cause of rape culture and misogyny."

The second screenshot is a zoomed in section of the post that reads, "So yeah no I have NO idea where exclus allies are getting this idea from that terfs would even remotely care about the sexual rights of ace people. Terfs generally hate any sexualities in the LGBTQ+ acronym that aren't LGB because they can't force a gender binary onto those sexualities. At least, not as easily. That's why it's actually a massive sign of someone who doesn't call themselves a terf being a crypto terf if they use the term LGB in a positive manner. Along with the term SGA, as it is deliberately exclusive of nonbinary and not inherently SGA centric queer-aligned sexualities. /END ID]

link to the full post, these are just excerpts but the whole thing is just a very long rant about how TERFs hate ace people and so on (i think it’s worth noticing that although the actual post is kinda long, trans women are never once brought op in a conversation about TERFs issues and the only time transmisogyny is mentioned is not relevant to the conversation)

2. link

[Image ID: A screenshot of a reblog by genderfluidlucifer. The original poster is nothorses. It reads, "Because apparently I have to say it: Testosterone is not a 'violent' hormone. It doesn't make you 'more aggressive' or a worse person, it doesn't make you 'dangerous,' or 'toxic.' Transmascs do not need to be 'warned of the dangers of T.' We do not need to spend our transitions terrified that we're going to become a danger to those around us - that HRT is going to turn us into a monster.

Everyone experiences mood swings during hormonal shifts (pregnancy, menstruation, menopause, estrogen HRT, etc.) and while you might have grumpy moments or feel anger/frustration that you need to learn to handle differently, that doesn't make you a bad person.

Testosterone can change the way you access/process emotions somewhat, but if you're already thoughtful about how you handle your feelings and treat others, you're going to be fine. It's normal to lash out on occasion, by accident, then apologize and work to do better. It doesn't make you a bad person. Everyone on HRT is prone to this, and everyone experiencing hormonal changes is prone to this.

Getting HRT should be positive and affirming; you should not have to spend your entire transition terrified of becoming a monster."

The post then has a reblog by captainlordauditor that reads, "The big danger of T is that needle ouchy." /END ID]

here’s them reblogging from known transmisogynist user @nothorses (once again, the irony that a post about how testosterone is seen as the "aggressive hormone" does not mention transfem at all which are literally the main victims of this rethoric in the first place)

3. link (1), link (2)

[Image ID: Two screenshots of posts by genderfluidlucifer. The first screenshot reads, "Queer exclus: We're not repackaging terf rhetoric! Saying that is transmisogynistic! Also queer exclus: Remove the plus from LGBT!" and has tags that say, "I will pay these people to grow some god damn self awareness. Imagine being this dense. Queer discourse." The post has 15 notes.

The second screenshot reads, "Honestly it is so stupid and frustrating to see ace exclus continue to deny that the ace discourse was started by terfs. Proof was given countless times. And a big name terf like galesofnovember even admitted to starting it. Those of you who demand proof but ignore all of this never wanted proof to begin with." and is tagged with, "ace discourse. The post has 38 notes. /END ID]

heres another two post of theirs conflating TERFs with ace exclusionism

4. link

[Image ID: A screenshot of a reblogged post by furbearingbrick. The original poster is boxlizard, Lucifer's old account. The original post reads, "By the way for people still in denial about it, here's galesofnovember, a terf, admitting that she intended to start the ace exclus movement. She's taking credit for it. Normally if the victims of this behavior weren't ace/aro or other queer identities y'all be ready to rightfully lynch her. But since it's us, y'all just still wanna stamp your feet and go, 'Nuh uh!' instead of acknowledging facts." The part that says, "admitting that she intended to start the ace exclus movement" is a link to a galesofnovember post.

There is then a reblogged addition from furbearing brick that reads, "archived versions of the receipts" and has two links to the webarchive. The tags read, "Bringing this back since it's apparently still relevant. Terfism mention. Aphobia mention. Queerphobia mention. Blocklist." and has 1,455 notes. /END ID]

this is their post that ive already talked about but basically they found a 52 notes post made by a TERF in 2012 and this one person said "i dont know why i dont get to be the princess of the anti-ace-brigade" and apparently they are convinced that this means TERFs started the ace exclusionism movement and that this is one of their goals. which is insane when TERFs in real life only care about making life miserable for transfem people first and foremost.

5.link

[Image ID: A screenshot of a reblog by genderfluidlucifer. The original poster is yu-gay-fudo. It reads, “Just in case you happen to be unaware, some of the “radfem lite” they post to warm you up to their rhetoric, just off the top of my head:

- Ace/aro exclusionism

- Bi exclusionism or claims that bi people are “less queer” bc of “straight passive privilege”

- Saying you have to be dysphoric to identify as transInvalidating nonbinary people

- Calling queer a slur regardless of context, saying people can’t identify as queer, and saying that it can’t be reclaimed

- “Mogai hell”, “kweer”, or otherwise mocking less common labels and claiming they are “just cishets who want to feel special”

- Excluding sex workers from feminist discussions or claiming that sex work is inherently evil

- Basically anyone who thinks they can determine what other people identify as”. The tags read, "queerphobia tw. twerfs tw. no id." and has 70,727 notes. It was reblogged on March 22nd, 2021 /END ID]

another example of conflating radfems to things that, while wrong, have little to nothing to do with them because being a radfem, again, is something very specific that has all to do with transfem oppression.

Emotional manipulation

Lucifer has done nothing but block, break boundaries, spread lies and vague about people, some of which were even mutuals with them knowing they would see the posts. when confronted about it Lucifer's only answer was "just say you hate me and block me" but they actually ended up blocking everyone first, making it impossible for anyone to set some boundaries with them or even just to calmly confront them about anything.

[proof: Io(popncourse) and Lucifer had a disagreement in a shared discord server, which prompted Lucifer to vague Io in a vent post. Io confronted them, as being vagued is one of buns triggers, to which Lucifer initially agreed to delete the vent post, but then proceeded to victimize themself and immediatly blocked Io. later on, Jude(malewifedeckard) was confronted by Lucifer, then after Jude told them “I’m worried that you’ll vague me just like you did with Io” they proceeded to block Jude and vagued about him too. when Io made a post (which was not a callout, it was just bun setting buns boundaries) explaining what Lucifer did, Lucifer immediatly jumped to victimize themself, acting like they were being called out and straight-up lying, even going so far as to say that no one tried to hear them out, which is a blatant lie if you consider the aforementioned Io and Jude’s attempts at doing so, with Lucifer immediatly blocking and cutting ties with the both of them. ] 

(screenshots taken by @popncourse and @malewifedeckard)

as seen in the proof above Lucifer’s behaviour is not ok because they don’t accept any kind of confrontation and immediatly jump to blocking, and after blocking, they'd immediatly go and vague about the people who confronted them pacificly, spreading more lies and painting themself as the victim and even arriving to say “no one hears me out at all” which is simply not something you can say when you block people who are trying to hear you out in the first place.

this is by no means an invitation to go and harass them, send them hate or anything like that. i absolutely don’t want anything even remotely hateful or negative to be sent their way after this post. 

this post was only made because:

1. as an ace person who fully supports the inclusion of aspec identities in the lgbt+ community i don’t want to support an enviroment that costantly downplays transmisogynistic oppression in order to be taken seriously. there are hundreds of ways to make aspec activism without acting like we(as in TME aspecs)are the victims of a system that seeks for the annihilation of transfemenine people in real life everyday. i especially don’t want to support TME individuals who act transfem-friendly but then block any transfem who tries to speak on transmisogyny without a second thought.

2. Lucifer’s behaviour has hurt two friends of mine and i don’t want to associate with someone who actively breaks people’s boundaries without taking accountability when messing up.

3. i cannot associate with someone who spreads lies about me accusing me of sympathizing with exclusionists all while having me blocked so that i can’t see it nor defend me. they complain about people not hearing them out but they’re the very first person who does not try to hear people out, and instead jumps to spread baseless rumors. this is not someone i can nor want to associate with. 

(image descriptions provided by @malewifedeckard)

[disastergay]

as a philosophy student, it irritates me how I have yet to see a TERF talking point that's grounded in reality and not just speculation or based in willful misunderstanding.

"if trans women aren't just men perpetuating misogynistic stereotypes about women, then why do they try so hard to conform to gender roles?? makeup and feminine clothes don't make you a woman"

maybe because it's safer to be a visibly gender-conforming woman? less than a century ago, there were laws in the U.S. that allowed the police to arrest women who wore "two or more masculine garments/accessories" (vice versa with men). those laws might be gone, but they left a nasty scar on our history.

"we should make it harder/impossible for everyone to transition because young girls are being brainwashed into irreversibly mutilating their bodies"

that... even if this scenario was realistic, that's not a viable solution at all? I agree that kids and teens who are questioning their gender shouldn't be rushed into transitioning, because I don't believe we should equate transness to transitioning. dysphoria is an extremely difficult cross to bear and should never be taken lightly, but anyone who says "the only way to EVER get rid of dysphoria for ALL trans people is through top/bottom surgery and HRT" is just wrong.

and those of y'all who are active proponents of abortion should know damn well that the only result restricting and/or banning gender affirming medical care will achieve is making the transition process more dangerous.

"testosterone can make people behave aggressively, and biological males on average have much more testosterone in their bodies than biological females. therefore, biological males are inherently more aggressive than biological females (and the latter group is not safe for them to be around)"

I love this argument because A) I can break it down into parts (basic premise #1, BP #2, and intermediate conclusion + major conclusion) and B) it overlaps cleanly with the topic of ableism.

so! aggression. it's a fairly fickle thing. depending on your personality and what specifically triggers your aggressive side, you may express aggression in many ways--physically, mentally, and/or emotionally towards other people, through an outlet you use to blow off steam, or maybe you turn all of that aggression inwards and use it to hurt yourself.

even if I was 100% sure that "biological males" are innately more aggressive than "biological females" (let's say due to testosterone for the sake of this context), I wouldn't agree with the main conclusion--that a "biological male" tendency to experience aggression means "biological females" are not safe around them.

why? because aggression does not necessarily beget violence of any kind.

to the vast majority of people, there's a slight difference between 'aggression' and 'aggressive behavior,' otherwise we wouldn't have coined terms (and still use those terms today!) to distinguish them from each other. (for example, if a radfem finds out a woman is trans, and that radfem suddenly feels the urge to punch said woman but doesn't act on it for whatever reason, that radfem is experiencing feelings of aggression BUT not actually exhibiting aggressive behavior.)

and now we've reached the question at the heart of this argument--if aggressive people learn to deal with their aggression in a healthy way, then can't they be safe to be around?

the answer is yes. the answer MUST be yes. because the minute society decides that the answer is no, any hope incarcerated prisoners and mentally ill/disabled people have of being treated like human beings gets squashed flat.

idk, I guess I'm just disappointed that trans exclusionary radical feminists base most of their arguments on pathos with little regard for ethics or logic.

and like. every single time I make a post like this TERFs just wanna call me names, tell me I'm delusional (as if that's new information), or nitpick my phrasing and then pretend they've completely dismantled all of my points. none of them are genuinely interested in learning about what it's like to be trans or WHY we think expanding beyond the western gender binary is more radical than forcing gender abolition on everyone.

TERFs think they already know everything there is to know about us, that there's nothing else left for them to learn from us, and that is their biggest mistake.