#Mileven is a healthy ship

[wontbyers]

Mood: I feel like indulging in Mileven in a way that I think neither Bylers nor Milevens will understand/appreciate.

(I'm so past the point of having any doubt about Byler being endgame that I feel safe to enjoy some Mileven content in a non-canon ship way, since I've always been a multi-shipper at heart. Their past relationship had its moments and I wanna appreciate what they meant to each other even if they don't end up together.)

[hesquietoday]

Seeing milevens ship percabeth is definitely taking years off my life

[hellinhawkins]

the thing that really bothers me about mileven is that the duffers have had no issues creating wonderfully healthy and sweet ships that you really can’t truly hate (lumax, jopper, jancy, rovickie, duzie, etc.) and then there’s mileven. it’s so different from the others.

whether this was accidental or on purpose, it’s true- unlike the others mileven constantly has issues, and they go unresolved/are resolved in a shitty way, and compared to, for example, lumax, where lucas is patient and kind and understanding and clearly adores max, you don’t see that with mike and el. their first kiss didn’t make a majority of the audience smile just like the others. it wasn’t a tender moment- it was rushed. when jancy argue, it’s seen as this awful thing (you get ice cream and fun music and bright colors when mileven argues.)

the others are closer to a soulmate situation and mileven? it’s merely out of a highschool drama.

[queermikewheelertruther]

“If Byler happens, what will happen to El?”

I’ve seen this question be asked a lot so I’m gonna answer it. I think she’ll be independent. She doesn’t need a romantic partner. She has so many loving friends and family to support her and if her entire arc was just breaking up with Mike in s4 and then their relationship being the entire plot in s5 would be kinda useless.

I’ve also seen a lot of people argue that if El doesn’t need a boyfriend and Mike isn’t good enough for her, then Will can be single too. This would be a good point if you watched the show with your eyes closed. Will NEEDS Mike, and I feel like people don’t understand if there is 4 seasons building up Will’s love for Mike just for it to end with a heterosexual relationship and him being alone would be a terrible ending. The difference between Mileven and Byler is that Mike can actually express his feelings to Will, in a way that they both understand. Their dynamic is SO much more intimate and passionate than Mileven. Byler being endgame would be a much better way to end the show because it would make El, Mike, and Will happy.

El NEEDS that independent strong women arc right now. She had her first kiss before she even knew how to form a sentence. They’ve been together for 2 (maybe 3) years without even knowing how to properly communicate and act in a relationship, and El needs to experience life without the pressure of being in a romantic relationship. I mean seriously, you cannot watch s4 and think that Mileven will be endgame. Every single other canon couple that is likely to be endgame all have something in common, they all understand and are on the same level romantically. However, with Mileven, this is not shown. They don’t understand each other romantically. This wouldn’t necessarily be an issue if they addressed and resolved this in season 4.

If Mileven were made to be seen as a healthy endgame ship, they would’ve put so much more effort and genuine and emotional feeling moments between them. They could’ve had Mike and El have a deep conversation about their problems, after their fight, and be in a private, calm space together. Mike could’ve explained directly to El why he’s been distancing himself romantically, his reaction at the roller-rink, and tell her how much he loves her. El could’ve explained to Mike why she didn’t feel comfortable enough to tell him she was being bullied, and they could’ve had some emotional, passionate kiss or something.

But they didn’t. Why? Because it’s not endgame. Why wouldn’t El and Mike be a main team together in s5? Why wouldn’t Mileven share similarities between other canon ships? Why does Byler have so many more intimate and romantic coded scenes in s4? What’s the point if Mileven is truly endgame?

(This is kinda badly worded but it’s like 2 am and idrk where I am)

[crxzytogether]

Lol I wanna address this even tho nobody asked because I’m mad. Like ship whoever you want as yk this person said but leave it out of our tag-💀 my problems more with the fact that they tagged byler for this post than what they said but yk since they tagged us might as well respond.

Firstly, “ideas planted by your community”? Huh? Girl what- you mean our evidence? You mean our analysis and perceptions and ability to interpret what we’re watching beyond surface level? And honestly after season 4 even surface level melodramas not looking too good- Secondly, what harsh truths were brought up? The lies? Your perception of montauk? which idk sounds a lot like mike and wills relationship to me but to each their own… “they’ve been together since pretty much day one”, “they have a deep connection”, “four seasons of character development”?? Do I even need to explain? Who’s been together since day one? Right mike and will, in the beginning of episode 1 before any of the upside down shit even happens we’re shown that their relationship is different from their relationship with the other party members. A fact that’s proven time and time again throughout season 1 where we see how much more Mike is affected by Will’s disappearance(not tryna negate everybody else’s feelings or reactions but it’s clear that we’re supposed to notice Mike cares slightly more or in a different way). As for the deep connections? Season 2 shed scene ring a bell, the first one of Mike’s monologue that’s an attempt to help someone he cares about that actually works and is completely honest, deep connection boom. And that connections emphasized again in s4 with Will being able to encourage Mike and make him feel better and we already know why it’s special on Will’s side and their whole plot-line that season. Next, “four seasons of character development” im sorry what?, season 1 and season 3 maybe are the only seasons I’d consider they had that meanwhile season 4 I’d say they had character regression because tell me how Mike goes from being able to comfort El about her feeling like she’s a monster but then does a 180 not only unable to comfort her but also make her feel worse-(I’m talking about she didn’t look fine in case you didn’t catch that). Back to s1/s3, s1 where they were friends for the most part is the healthiest their relationship has ever been the entire show- like😭😭it literally just goes downhill from there. Season 2/season 3 their codependency I’m- and season 4 El feeling like she has to lie to Mike about her life and Mike unable to comfort her and also hiding his own interests from her. Like sure the bullying thing I get why she’d hide that maybe not really but El lies about so many things😭😭 she feels like she has to lie to keep up the relationship. THAT 👏 IS 👏 NOT 👏 HEALTHY 👏. Like maybe after they’ve both grown separately I’d consider it but as of now? No sir. Also let me remind you how El confronted Angela and asked her to help El keep up the pretence- SHE STILL DIDN’T FEEL SAFE OR COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TELL MIKE THE TRUTH. That’s not healthy for either of them. My byler agenda aside I still don’t think Mike and El should be together. Lastly, “the fact that Mileven IS endgame”, again I’m sorry what? Have you watched season 5? Have you read the scripts or been on set or talked to anybody working on st5 or work on st5 yourself? No? So then how is that a fact- it’s a prediction, an assumption but it’s not a fact. If after season 5 comes out and it did end up becoming true then you could use that phrase but as of now when you have no idea how season 5 is gonna go you can’t call that a fact. Also rip how are you so confident when Mike and Will are literally attached at the hip so far from what we have seen besides the rooftop convo and if that is enough to convince you then yikes- bc we’ve got like 10 of those to convince us so good luck watching season 5 and have a good day ig

[obsessionatthemoment]

One of the few arguments I have ever had with a Mileven shipper was me saying Mileven was toxic and them saying Byler was toxic. I have been thinking about this a lot recently, and have come to a conclusion (it's my personal opinion, and you can disagree if you want).

Before I start, I want to say that I am using the term toxic loosely (I am mostly using the term because it's the term we used in the argument). I am mostly referring to both ships' arguments when I refer to their toxic moments.

I think that the Mileven toxicity will get better with them agreeing to just be friends, and that the Byler toxicity will get better with them becoming boyfriends. Let me explain…

When Mileven fight, it's typically due to Mike not being able to reciprocate Elevens feelings, one of them lying, their relationship being too controlling or codependent, them invalidating each other, or Eleven hurting someone (whether it being her accidentally hurting Lucas in season 1 or her hurting Angela in season 4). I think, looking at this list, it is clear that they are not compatible. However, they are still compatible as friends. Mike can love El platonically, El would have space to figure herself out and have complete independence, and generally they would be happier and most likely fight less.

When Byler fight, it is almost always due to miscommunication, internalized homophobia, or jealousy (and sometimes invalidation or lying). If they started dating, I think a lot of this would be resolved. If they were dating, that would mean to some extent they were working through their internalized homophobia (which would eliminate a lot of conflict because out of all their conflicts, this comes up the most). Most of their miscommunication was due to them being many states apart (phone calls, letter, etc.), which will be resolved even if they didn't start dating. The jealousy would be resolved as well because most of their jealousy is due to both of them thinking the other doesn't like them. I think the invalidation would be solved alongside the miscommunication because Will would know that Mike called (that miscommunication was invalidating on both ends), Mike would probably understand if Will explained feeling like he missed out on his childhood due to his trauma (not sure if there is more invalidation I missed). The lying would be solved as well if Mike and Eleven weren't dating anymore because Will would stop trying to keep them together. Once they started dating, Will wouldn't need to use El as a cover for his feelings.

There is probably stuff I missed, but I feel like I got the most compelling evidence into words. I definitely think most of the toxicity would vanish if this happened, but obviously they would still fight occasionally because that's just how humans work. Conflict happens no matter how healthy a relationship is. Hope this made sense.

[sugarspiceandnotsonice]

I’m someone who HATES getting my hopes up and always keeps my expectations low but it’s so hard to do that when it comes to Byler. I went into season 4 as a GA member. I always knew Will was gay since season 1 and even felt like he might’ve had a crush on Mike since season 2. I was positive he had feelings for Mike since season 3. Season 4 ended up confirming everything I suspected. As for Mike, I did think he liked El in seasons 1 and 2. I even thought Mileven were cute in those seasons. Then season 3 happened and made me realize I thought Mileven was cute because I hadn’t actually witnessed them in a relationship. Their relationship just annoyed me and confused the hell out of me. It wasn’t a healthy relationship at all. Mike seemed like a completely different person, like he was pretending to be someone else. Their breakup made me so happy and then when they got back together at the end of the season I was confused and annoyed all over again. Then season 4 happened and seeing the way Mike was without El in Hawkins, seeing him go back to being the nerd I knew and loved and playing DnD again, that made me so happy. Then he went to California to visit El and Will. Once again pretending to be something that he wasn’t while around El and acting extremely weird around Will. Will clearly had feelings for Mike but acted totally fine and normal around him. The boy was beaming and so happy to see him and give him a hug. Mike was the one acting weird around Will. Why? Based on the letter El wrote to Mike you’d think Will would be the one to act weird and awkward but it was the other way around. That airport scene made me start thinking that maybe possibly Mike liked Will beyond just platonically. Will and Mike did always seem to have a deeper friendship to me. Mike always acted differently around Will compared to Lucas and Dustin. Plus when Mike was in a romantic relationship with El, he never seemed to be his authentic self to me. I then thought I was probably just reading too much into things but the more scenes I watched of Mike and El along with scenes of Mike and Will, the more I thought that there was no way that the writers of this show actually want me to want Mike and El together. If so, why are they writing them so terribly? They write Jopper, Jancy, and Lumax so well so what the hell are they doing with Mileven? Why’d they make Will have feelings for Mike and are making me want those two to be together instead? Why are the writers having Mike be his most authentic, vulnerable self with Will? What is going on here? If they want me to root for Mileven instead then they’re doing the absolute worst job in making me want them as a couple since season 3. Season 4 made me one hundred percent ship Byler and I found out that I definitely wasn’t the only one who felt that way after watching season 4. By the way, my sister can’t stand Mileven either and would much rather have Byler be a couple as well. So yeah, the writers screwed up big time if they weren’t planning on this reaction. Season 4 and Byler is what really got me into Stranger Things beyond just a casual viewer. Will is my favorite character and all I want is for that boy to finally get happiness and love. He’s just been nonstop suffering the entire time. Why make him in love with Mike if Byler isn’t going to happen? Just so he could suffer more? Wow talk about terrible writing for their only gay character.

[milkvanissonothappening]

They really fucked up Mileven so bad.

A lot of people argue that Mike and Eleven are a horrible ship and make no sense together, as characters or narratively, and while I don’t necessarily disagree, I think Mileven actually had potential to be a really sweet couple, if it had just been done differently.

If they wanted people to take the ship seriously, they should have waited on the romance and given the characters a better foundation/let them just be kids before throwing them into a relationship with each other.

Not only is this dynamic rushed but also, and you can call me crazy, it’s weird and bordering on creepy to have 2 eleven year olds falling in love and kissing, after the girl has been traumatized and not able to experience childhood her whole life might I add, AND THEN proceed to have them aggressively making out and in a visibly toxic relationship, where she canonically feels like an object and a pet, at THIRTEEN!! I feel like the ages of the characters are glossed over WAY too often in the Stranger Things fandom, because we see them fighting monsters and shit, but those are little kids! Like wtf!! That’s weird!!

And like I actually did ship them when I was younger and the first few seasons had come out and looking back I’m realizing it was because I was literally 10 years old and had no perception of what a healthy relationship looked like. But now we should all know better. This shit is not healthy or normal for such young children.

So yeah if Mileven ends up being canon, I’m going to be pissed, not because I ship Byler or Elmax or anything else, but because that is honestly so disrespectful and kind of sexist to do to Eleven’s character because the very first thing they do to her when she escapes literal abuse from an older man is get into a toxic romantic relationship with a boy at 11 years old.

I just firmly believe that majority of the people who ship Mileven are either little girls who don’t see why it’s a weird/unhealthy dynamic or people who are a weirdos.

[stucknexttobyler]

"Team mileven!" "Team byler!!!" How abt team sthu . Ppl forget stranger things isnt always abt couples, every main group is friends w eachother and ppl have to stop comparing and shitting on other ships bc ur ship is just "better and superior". Every ship deserves a healthy fandom that dont start random fights with others ( unless the ship is a prosh!p, they deserve hell )

[findafight]

It is tiring to be regarded as a 'homophobe' when you claim to not like a queer ship or say you do not think a queer ship is going to be canon & should not go canon. ST fandom has this type of fans especially Bylers and recently Ronancers. Sorry that I do not think Byler has a chance of being wrapped up in a nice way when the writers actively refused to even breakup Mileven in this season and intentionally added a confession scene on the show from Mike to El. We literally have 1 season left with everything else going on in a limited time frame but I am expected to be okay with the possible resolution of this whole thing, and should expect a nice wrap up where we supposedly will see Mileven break up, Mike and El moving on from each other, there will be a time for them to adjust to that, for Mike to consider dating Will HECK even for Will to consider confessing and dating Mike, for the writers to make that all believable to the audience in a nice way within the narrative.... and I am expected to like Ronance when Stobin is one of the most important platonic relationships on the show and we canonically know Nancy and Steve's break up was bad, and that Steve still has feelings for Nancy. I want to see representation, I really do but it feels like the fandom itself is bending any logic and sensibility to make a ship seem reasonable and make sense within the narrative... when it really does not.

God. Yeah. Like sure queer people can have internalized homophobia or intra community basis (like bi/a/trans phobia) etc but to say someone's a bigot just because they don't like the a fictional ship, or even that they just don't think it will be canon, is just silly and causing problems on purpose.

The intense blr shippers have really turned me off the ship, honestly. I have a few asks from them saved as drafts just to get them out of my inbox, and they're saying the same as others "we're fighting homophobia" "you're just as bad as people saying why don't we shut up about blr and ship mlvn if you don't think this has been part of a grand and epic master plan for the greatest romance ever" as well as just not understanding what the very specific phenomena of queerbaiting is, all telling me I don't belong in the ship because I don't ship it correctly. So. Makes me feel bad and really disappointed. People who ship mlvn (which my original post was also tagged, because it discusses them too) DIDNT come to my inbox and call me names or a fake shipper when I said I thought they should break up. Make of that what you will.

As much as Will and Mike getting together would mean to people, putting that much emotional weight and expectation and emphasis on a single aspect of a show, a single ship, is not healthy. It also, if it does happen, will not be the epic romance planned from the start they think it is. (We remember tjlc, right?? RIGHT??) If it happens it will possibly be slap dash and rushed, because you're right. There's a lot happening, the show struggles with ending/starting romances, and they are NOT the only characters that matter. The breathing room required for both Mike and El AND the audience to make the breakup feel real and that enough time has passed to not make Mike look like an asshole for immediately dating his ex's brother (and for Will not to look like an ass for dating his sister's ex?!?) Is now insufficient given how short the seasons are, and as you said, they should've broken up in S4 to pull that off.

And then the fandom would likely feel a bit cheated after building it up so much in their heads, only for it to be a bit of a flop. But I guess a lot of people don't mind how Nancy and Jonathan got together, so with the way some of the people in my inbox were talking about El then it could be like that too. Just. Not giving a shit if someone, a character I personally love, was really hurt and betrayed by her recently ex boyfriend and her BROTHER.

Pretending it was all fine because romantic love is the most important thing ever to them I guess. When it's not, especially in the show! Non romantic bonds are so important to these characters! It would just ruin it for me, because what I was originally saying was that Will, Mike, and El all mean so much to each other and actively try to not hurt one another (even if the do accidentally or end up hurting themselves) and that, because Will and El are siblings now, Will might think twice about dating Mike so soon after he broke up with El. It would make them look cold hearted and selfish tbh. That's why a good ending would be Will feeling comfortable enough to come out, and being accepted by his friends. (All of them not just Mike) and that final emphasis on the Party as a whole rather than individual Romo relationships.

It's actually very important to consider other people's feelings in everyday life, I think. Sure, ultimately they shouldn't dictate all your actions, but there will be consequences for some of them. They can lose friendships, or other relationships. It can also make a character look REALLY BAD.

For rnce, people go on about how Robin absolutely does not need to consider Steve's feelings in pursuing a girl. (Ignoring other issues people have with the ship that have nothing to do with Steve, lol) And sure. Okay. For every girl but the one that broke his heart, cheated on him, and who he still has feelings for that Robin herself encouraged. People are out here saying they could be endgame without completely ruining stobin's friendship like huh??? Do they understand Robin "what if we just combined" Buckley? Do they not care about the most important relationship in her life? Do they not care about her beyond how she can hype up Nancy instead of one of those icky boys?

A problem I have with rnce is that a lot of the writing saying it could be canon (which, lbr, it won't be. While I think blr may be canon just in a kind of disappointing way, I don't think there's any chance of rnce happening, especially with Vickie right there blushing and flirting with Robin) only focuses on how it would be good for Nancy, or if it's trying to make it seem good for Robin ignores their personalities and other relationships. Like Nancy isn't annoyed by Robin until Robin's speech gets them into Penherst, or that Nancy wasn't dismissive of Robin's ideas, and Robin wasn't clearly nervous and apologizing for being annoying in order to get Nancy to like her (tbh I think Nancy should have been the one pursuing a friendship with Robin instead of the other way around but alas). Tbh I could go on about how Nancy and her relationships and her needs/wants inside those are often misdirected? Misidentified? By fandom, and how that feeds into Robin being reduced to someone who supports Nancy (which, if people complain about Robin considering her bffs feelings about her dating someone, shouldn't they complain about her becoming a glorified cheerleader for Nancy...oh. it's because it's romantic. And some parts of this fandom value that most.) In rnce, which strips Robin of her personality and makes it boring. But this is already long haha (Not to mention it'd be super weird for Nancy to be dating her ex she cheated on and never actually told she cheated on him's best friend. Awkward!!)

I used to not mind rnce that much, tbh. I didn't get it and did think it was weird but the art was cute! And now it's sort of an alarm bells for people being weird about stobin.

Steve and Robin's relationship, like so many platonic relationships but more glaring with just how obsessed with each other they are, is often devalued by the fandom by virtue of the idea that a romantic partner needs/should be someone's number 1. Even though those two want to combine, and are seen taking active roles in trying to get them a romantic relationship, and are really the first person the other felt they could be completely themself around. They're the most important person to the other, regardless of their romantic relationship status.

[theevilpickler]

All non-mileven(don't think that is a term) shippers, if mileven fixed all their communication problems and became a healthy relationship, would you ship them?

[will80sbyers]

do you not think mileven was a valid ship? how is that not shipping mileven? you think at one point mileven was good and healthy and that mike even still likes eleven as if mike isn’t a whole gay boy

I think Mileven is a real ship because my headcanon is that Mike is bisexual, I don't ship them and don't think they will be endgame as you can see by my entire blog

you can have your own headcanon in peace without anyone bothering you, so why can't I exactly?

Mike being gay is a headcanon and it will stay a headcanon until season 5 confirms or denies that, for now he could even end up being straight

[kawaiidoodles95-blog]

Byler VS Mileven: Thoughts, opinions, etc.

Warning: If you are a Byler or Mileven endgame person, please stay off this. I’m gonna critique both of your ships.

To get the most controversial out of the way, let’s talk about Byler.

Byler is a ship between Will x Mike. If you are on Tumblr, a Stranger Things fan, and you don’t know that, what are you doing? Byler is like, 80% of the Stranger Things fandom. Anyways, so these are my thoughts on Byler. I don’t think it’s gonna be endgame and I don’t think it’s be healthy even if it was. Mike seems really… uh, what’s the word, rude to Will? Especially in the last 2 seasons. Mike was literally pushing Will away in the 3rd season over a girl. Yes, I do agree Will is gay. I have no real doubt about it. But if Mike really loved Will…

1. He’d probably show true signs of affection. No, not smiling at Will. No, not grabbing his hand (I do that with my friends no matter what gender they are.) Like, actual signs of affection, not just friendship signs.

2. He’d probably be more coy with Will. Just as Will is showing affection to Mike in obvious ways, Mike should probably recuperate these feelings. This leads to my 3rd and final point…

3. Is Mike just stupid? Listen. How come we, the outsiders, the people watching, the people not even being INTERACTED with, are noticing all the signs of Will’s obvious gayness, when MIKE, the person being DIRECTLY TALKED TO AND INTERACTED WITH is not getting the hint. Sorry, this topic just gets me heated. I know this is the 80’s and being gay is still taboo, but being Bi/Gay is not unknown. Mike probably would know if he himself is bi, non the less, his own friend. Will is as subtle as 100 nukes going off at once. So why is Mike not getting it?

So yeah, that’s my thoughts on Byler. Overall, I don’t have a problem with the ship. It’s just that people are thinking it’s going to 100% being endgame, and hey, maybe I’m wrong. I’m just saying Byler is not 100% on the board of endgame ships, if there are any.

Now let’s talk about Mileven.

This is the ship of Mike and El. This is a canon (for now) ship. So, obviously since I dislike Byler, I must be for Mileven, right?

Idiot.

I am for NEITHER. NON. NEIN. NIE. Here are my reasons for my dislike of Mileven. I don’t think they’re gonna break up, but I sure as heck hope they do. El deserves better. Sure, Mike was forced to, but he could have chosen not to lie to El if he truly loved her. Second, he was overprotective of El, and El deserves to have her independence. Luckily, she does in S3 and 4. Mike was great to her in the first two seasons, being not overprotective, but just caring and wanting to make sure she’s ok. He seemed to have chemistry, and then, the next season… well… it sort of turned toxic. Mike got really weird and mean to like, a lot of people. If he truly loved El, he would have…

1. Stayed like how he was in the first 2 seasons. Protective, but not overly so. The relationship shouldn’t have become the stereotypical and annoying break-up get-back-together plot. I feel like Lumax was the way they should’ve went with the relationship.

2. Again, he wouldn’t lie. He should’ve stayed with El and not have lied, because that only made the whole thing worse. Then that lead to Mike and Will fighting, because Mike is a moron (are you seeing a pattern here? That both of these ships’s issues are a lot because of Mike? Huh) and wouldn’t even listen to his own “crush.”

3. He would, as I mentioned with Will, be more coy with her. Mike in the recent seasons (also notice how I keep mentioning the first and latest 2 seasons? Odd) has been acting strange around Eleven. Almost like she’s pulling her along on a relationship that doesn’t really exist anymore. I think he’s worried El will be mad at him and not help him if he breaks up with her. But again, that isn’t healthy. That isn’t love.

So those are my thoughts on the ships. If you disagree with me and fight in the comments like a bunch of barbarians, I will not care. You can like what you like, just leave me out of it.

[pholiabanna]

Bylers chronically misinterpret and misremember things and it drives me insane. One of the common Byler viewpoints is that Mileven is toxic in season 3 because Mike and El separate from their friends to make out an “unhealthy” amount and don’t spend quality time together. But Eleven isn’t supposed to be seen or caught in the real world! So they can’t exactly go on dates or anything like that. So Mike spends all the time he can with his girlfriend cause why wouldn’t he? He loves her. They laugh and joke around and have a good time together. It’s Hopper who’s at fault for keeping them apart

I don't understand why you're sending me this when I haven't posted in almost a day, and I understand even less why you are on the byler tag if you don't like the ship. But since you don't seem almost as rude and insane as other milkvan anons I got, I'll kindly answer you:

When, in fiction, many characters in the show point out how there's something wrong with a relationship, maybe the writers are trying to make a point across, that wiewers are supposed to catch on! Hopper didn't try to keep them apart forever, he (even though he didn't approach it in the best possible way) only wanted for El to spend one single day without her boyfriend, which is normal, because you should have relationships with other people besides your significant other. The party members also point out how they don't like that they always ditch them to make out, because the main theme of the show is the importance of friendship, so ignoring everyone everyday to make out goes against the core themes of the show, thus meaning the Duffers didn't intend for it to be seen as a positive thing. It is not a good thing in real life either, by the way. There's a reason why El's season 3 plot of breaking up with Mike, making a female friend and hanging out with someone else for the first time and discovering what she likes is presented as a great growth from her character.

Also, no, we can tell they didn't do other thing besides making out because Hopper himself told Joyce "it is constant". I promise you if the Duffers wanted to present a relationship as healthy, they wouldn't make them unlikeable both to the wiewers and to the other characters while they are together. Even if El couldn't go outside, they still could do something else besides making out while being indoors, you know, like watching movies, Mike teaching El hobbies, or just having genuine conversations. But they do none of those. However, Lucas and Max are the same age, and are presented as a more normal relationship for their age in season 3, because even though they break up (unseriously) a couple times, they still hang out with their other friends, never make others feel left out, share similar interests, do something else besides making out... and they are likely to be endgame. That's how genuine relationships are written. Also, I don't think Mike and El are toxic, they just aren't the right person for each other, and they threw themselves into a relationship while facing insecurities for different reasons (that can't be solved by staying together) and that makes them regress as characters. It's really about understanding basic character analysis

[wheeler-fan]

Well I see ur last answers on Byler and Mileven post and I would like to add my perspective on both of these ships realistically (because I like to poke my nose into others businesses /jk)

Well honestly speaking I love Byler, but here I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. Realistically speaking, both ships have their own pros and cons. Mileven did looked cute around 1-2 seasons (if we see it from general audience perspective) and while Byler (for me atleast) looked so much cute and healthy in season 2.

But look let's forget the fact that Mike can't say ily to El for a moment. Their ship still won't make sense, because Mike (when he asked El out) was around 11-12 yrs (as much as I remember). He cared and loved El but not romantically. He showed a genuine care for her because he suddenly founded her in woods (plus he thought she might know about Will). At this time I don't think he had crush on her. El was the first girl who had talked to him without being mean, so that is also the reason for him to act more soft towards her. But since it was first time for Mike to talk to a girl, so the other people around him (like - Lucas and Nancy) thought that he liked her. And Lucas was the one who was pushing this idea that Mike might be in love with her, and after sometime Nancy also confronted him about this. And since surrounding does affects you and it was his first time being friends with a girl, he later thought yes that might be the case. And El didn't even knew what a friend was, so how do we expect her to know the meaning of love is? In conclusion I think that both El and Mike likes this idea of being in love and they do love each other but as I said not romantically. They both don't act like themselves around each other and in last season they both lied to eachother. Both of them need to explore themselves and what they like and then should be in a relationship with someone they like.

While for Byler, I do believe it is much better than Mileven but again Mike still needs to find what he really feels and think. And as for Will, he does know that the kind of love that want is "not normal" in the sense of 90s. He do love Mike in a romantic way but he still tried to fix Mike's and El's relationship, because he cares for both of them. I'm not a Mike hater but him in season 3 and 4 just gives me mixed feelings. Mike outted Will and he during the time when he was supposed to find his "girlfriend", he started talking about how Will didn't talked to him the whole day. Which is actually kinda umm, weird? Like bro u are supposed to find ur girlfriend, so don't change the topic lol.

I'm still looking out for Mike's character development in season 5 because he has so much potential and he is more than "El's boyfriend".

I to be honest wouldn't mind if Byler doesn't becomes canon (actually I will but that's not the point here 🥲) but if Mileven becomes endgame then tbh it would be a kind of a fanservice. Like let's take bylers a side, the large number of audience are general audience and other are Milevens. Most of the general audience are homophobic and they go with basics . Not forget to mention that people still say in this date that "wait people ship Mike and Will??" El is a character who needs to be independent, her story doesn't revolve around finding a boyfriend but it's revolve around finding herself and learning the normal world. Mike is just boiled down to being El's boyfriend but he is more than that, so many people find him relatable and it's not a bad writting if something like this happens. If see from Will's perspective, then his story doesn't fully revolve around finding a partner but it still plays a important role in his character (since he thinks that he can't be loved by someone how he wants). I'm such huge fan of Will and I want what he feels is good for him, I just want to see him happy. I still hope that he comes out to Mike and Mike to comfort him, them having a heart to heart while comforting each other.

Mileven as a ship held a big potential in past but it wasn't taken serious as it should've been. Same goes for Byler, it have potential to be a good friends to lover story and duffers are giving us bit of hints but we will only what is gonna happen to them in season 5.

At the end I want all my three babies to have a happy ending which they deserve (⁠〃ﾟ⁠3ﾟ⁠〃⁠)

I'm gonna be honest with u right now, this is one of the best explained views on a byler pov I've seen!! It was really nice and you've got a point!! i love nice byler fans with all my heart i swear❤️❤️

The first thing i want to say is the fact that we all are getting so mad sometimes about these ships probably bc no one wants to be in a situation where we get to know that we believed in some delusions for years 😭😭

I personally see mike with el, I don't know if things are gonna work out for them but i hope so, yet the most important thing for me is a happy ending for my fav character- Mike, and if you're the one who has right, if byler actually's gonna be endgame, as long as mike is actually happy i think I'll be happy too (well i really hope so but i want mileven to be endgame please lord😭😭😭)

But even skipping the part about who does mike actually love in a romantic way, can i ask u something? Can you really see it, how mike and el break up and then immediately mike goes to his best friend and his ex gf brother and they become a couple? I know that you would really like that to happen but the question is do u really see it happen?😭 Because i just can't I'm so sorry i don't know how it is supposed to happen, we actually don't have much time it's the last season 😭

And I have another question like this is kinda personal but I need to know, do u have something like this sometimes, that you're starting to stress- ,,what if my fav ship actually won't be endgame? what if I'm being delusional?" Don't get me wrong I'm asking these questions to myself all the time because i have to be honest with u it's stressing me out that there's so many byler shippers like it have to mean something right?😭😭😭

[problematicbyler]

I’m genuinely curious are mileven shippers also “uncomfortable” talking about sex and reading smut? Or is this “creepy” labels are just suited for a gay ship?

Because I’ve always loved reading smut ever since I was mature enough to understand and experience it myself (yes I was a teenager) and I never had any morality issues with it, considering that I’ve been in many many fandoms and one of them being freaking Harry Potter with endless supply of fanfics. But I remember when I first had my gay ship (aahhh those were the days). I also read E rated fanfics about them, amongst others. And very soon after I met byler and saw all these people accusing us.

I remember being so afraid that I actually liked reading smut about gay characters because I’m a heterosexual woman. I started to question my own sexuality and gender but not in a healthy way a person should’ve. As if that was not a big deal by itself I started to question my morals, i was constantly thinking “am i really fetishizing them?” After internalising it and hating myself and thinking I’m a horrible person I confided in some of my friends who’s sexualities and genders are different. Some of them don’t like engaging in smut content (they don’t have a holier than thou attitude they just don’t like it themselves) and some love it. So I wanted to get perspective on this.

(It turned out that yes, I am in fact a heterosexual woman who enjoys this type of content and that doesn’t make me immoral. Just like it doesn’t make anyone immoral.)

These stupid things that are being said can actually harm people, cause them to think negatively about themselves when there is no reason to. When this byler issue first happened back in 2022 I almost went back to that place.

I love engaging in all parts of a fandom and I love hadcannoning and exploring about my ships in every aspect. Regardless of their gender or sexualities. But if this “discourse” only concerns Byler and not mileven then all these people who are slandering us have a different problem (internalised homophobia) and need to take care of it themselves.

Because Harry Potter characters were also teenagers. Fans also watched and read the characters grow up. Those fanfics were also written by both adults and teenagers. This type of conversations never happened. Is it because all the canon ships in HP are heterosexual couples? But if so, were Drarry shippers ever accused also?

So yeah I’m genuinely curious, do milevens even care?

II did think it was hilarious that I saw some folks posting like "this [sexualization of teen characters] never happened in xyz fandom" citing Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, even It. Which like, it definitely did happen, lmao, just because you didn't see it doesn't mean people weren't doing it. And to cite It is hilarious when the canon text has an actual child orgy. But whatever.

I agree it's wild that people assume things about your sexuality based on what you like in fiction. I also saw someone saying that people who like Byler smut are just into it because they are attracted to Finn? Like, I'm asexual. It is so not like that. I just think that Will and Mike want to fuck. It's that simple.

And yeah, the Mileven thing is an interesting point. I haven't seen any Mileven sex discourse but that's because I am not in Mileven spaces. I remember some folks talking about wanting a sex scene in season 5 at one point, but I have no idea if they were attacked for it like Byler smut creators have been.

Ultimately, like you said - the moralizing and harassment hurts real people, unlike the smut itself, which hurts no one.