#and Nynaeve is the one character I think the show understands the most and is building the most groundwork for

[moghedien]

"They changed Nynaeve's block in the show and made her afraid of the One Power when she wasn't in the books!"

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 46: Veils, when Nynaeve is under compulsion by Moghedien and literally has no choice but to be completely honest:

[asha-mage]

Assorted Thoughts From Forcing My Friends to Watch all of WoT as a birthday gift, Season 2 Edition-

When taken as a whole unit, the show actually completely conveys what's happening with Lan's bond from the jump, it's just that several characters are incorrect or working with incorrect information- as was often the case in the books. Lan thinks he's just been blocked out, but in reality Moiraine has released his bond entirely (as she floated she might do to Alanna back in season 1) and you can see the moment he realizes this in episode 2, when saddling the horses- he realizes that he didn't sense the Fade and what that means, and then Moiriane realizes he has realized.

The show in general is a lot more subtle, and a lot more willing to delve into the idea that often characters are just...wrong, or uninformed, or lying, without holding the audience's hand to explain that fact then I think people give it credit for- which is very in line with Jordan's ethos. For example, Ishamael's telling of Perrin 'the more wolf you become the more you are mine' is a blatant manipulation attempt to scare him into being afraid of his Wolfbrother powers and Perrin, who is going through hell, just buys it- and that makes sense he's already wrestling his own anger issues and fear. He doesn't question why Ishamael would tell him this, or what the effect would be (i.e not trusting the wolves, and thus maybe making himself more vulnerable to the Shadow) he just accepts it because it plays into his existing fears and biases about himself.

Anvare also raises this point really well when she gives her 'ask yourself- is it true?' speech to Moiraine. Moiraine is operating at that point under a lot of assumptions that aren't true- not just that Lanfear is going to hurt or capture Rand, but also that she really was stilled, that she can't trust Lan with her fears and doubts, that her presence is a threat to Barthanes and Anvare (when really Barthanes's presence is a threat to her)- and this moment, is meant to cast doubt not just on that, but on a lot of the assumptions the audience has likely been making too, which characters their taking at face value and which characters their thinking off through the lens of their own biases.

Continuing the trend of Moiraine displaying many of the bad coping mechanisms that will later dog Rand/Rand will internalize from her- @ofthebrownajah pointed out recently Rand's consistent issues with food and eating, which made it stick out to me how frequently in the show Moiraine has a similar problem. People repeatedly try to reach out to Moiraine via food/encouraging her to take care of herself, and she repeatedly rejects them. Lan's attempt to get her to come down for dinner, then to bring dinner to her in her rooms, Barthanes's sandwich, tea with Anvare- Moiraine has her walls raised so high she rejects this basic form of self-care and attempt to reach out hand in hand. This is especially notably because their is a repeated emphasis on food this season. Every major character gets at least one scene eating or drinking this season (Egwene and Elayne doing bootleg, Rand grabbing flatbread on his way to work, Mat with Liandrin's honey cakes, Nynaeve preparing dinner in the arches world, Lan sharing dinner with Alanna's family at her farm) but even Moiraine's eventual forced tea with Anvare goes deliberately unshown.

On rewatch I think that, while I really really love the moment where Renna and Seta are left to the mercy of their own culture by Nynaeve and Egwene in the books, the moment of Egwene killing Renna just makes the most narrative sense for the show- and I think will be a change that they are going to walk out through it's consequences.

The point of that sequence in the book is that Nynaeve understands that Egwene's bloodlust and anger are valid- but that the fact of killing will not help her in the long run. "It's okay to hate them. They deserve it. It's not okay to let them make you like them." I suspect, especially given how thoughtful the show has been about violence and death (and how clearly hollow the experience of actually killing Renna is for Egwene) that the show will take the plank of 'she deserved to die- but killing her did not undo everything you went through or heal you'. Which, again makes sense both Egwene's oncoming Aiel arc, and the fact that the books do spend a lot of time focusing on Egwene working through the trauma of her captivity.

The arches are another thing I've come around on after initial trepidation about their changes. I think each manages to still cut at the heart of Nynaeve's character arc and her struggles. The last one was my biggest concern, the shift from Nynaeve deliberately rejecting a perfect life with Lan for the sake of going back for the other Emond's Fielders to Nynaeve going back after realizing that such a life lived with Lan, as much as it might give her joy for a time, would still be hollow in the end. She can't turn her back on the struggles of the world and her friends without consequence- she can't just go back to life in the Two Rivers. She has to keep fighting for what she loves.

I think the choice itself also works when put in the context of the steady removal of Nynaeve's charges one by one. She thinks Rand is dead (and is probably blaming herself for his death as pops up in her interaction with Tam), Mat ran off, and Perrin is safe with the Shinearans. Her main charge left is Egwene- and hering that she's not helping Egwene but hurting her, overshadowing her- removes the final reason she really had for being at the White Tower, staying on the adventure. If the people she left home to save don't need her- then why is she there?

I continue to really think people are over hyping how bad the show supposedly makes Siuan look- my friends despite being largely uninitiated in the book series immediately groked that Siuan and Moiraine where just doing what they felt was right, in a complicated situation. They both are trying to save the world, and they love each other- but the world is more important.

Moiraine also brings a lot of the trouble on herself by not telling Siuan she was stilled and damaging the trust between them- leaving that detail out is the first crack in Siuan's ability to trust Moiraine still be honest with her, her partner in all this, and then her seeming to have either lied or regained that power, right at the moment she's allied with Lanfear, is the final blow any hope they where still standing together.

Despite stopping frequently to talk at even minor moments, we ran through almost the entire finale without pausing and then collectively all just sat there speechless. Man is the battle of Falme and everything around it so good.

Quote one of my friends re: Moghiden "Oh she's a little freak."

Also shout out to Lanfear for making one of my MLM friends doubt his sexuality with her 'short hair pirate t shirt look'.

That entire scene in the dream world bedroom cased a collective meltdown and one of my other friends to say 'oh I see why you where insane about this'

The effects continue to be killer throughout the season and god I can't wait to see season 3.

[markantonys]

Re your Mat ranking I'm thinking of back when s1 first aired and people were complaining so much how they changed Mat's backstory but seeing how they're adapting his character on the show now it's honestly the best thing they could've done for his character

it's especially worth noting that those complaints exclusively came from readers. show-onlys LOVED mat straightaway in s1 and near-universally listed him as the most compelling of the EF4 and the one they felt most invested in. nynaeve, moiraine, and lan obviously had him beat overall, but if i'd run a poll during s1 asking show-onlys who was their favorite among mat, rand, perrin, and egwene, i'm quite confident that mat would've won in a landslide.

and it was precisely because of those backstory changes. in general Sad Childhood is a trope that audiences gobble up, as rafe & co knew very well, and for mat specifically it was an excellent way to convey the heart of his character (hero who thinks he isn't a hero) right away in the first episode (where we see him worry about being just like his shitty parents but then he charges into battle to rescue his sisters). for me at least, giving him tangible fears and insecurities about his nature makes his struggle with viewing himself as a hero emotionally resonate much more than the book version of "i don't want to be a hero because it's too dangerous and too much work" (a comedically realistic attitude for a fantasy character to have, for sure, but doesn't make for as powerful & moving of a character arc as "i've grown up viewing myself as a worthless piece of shit and now i need to be a hero and i'm terrified that i'm not good enough to pull it off").

in conclusion, the un-self-awareness in the "mat deeply sucks and is hated by all readers until book 3. oh my god how dare the show change mat's backstory in a manner deliberately calculated to make the audience understand, sympathize, and emotionally connect with him right away in the first episode?!" complaints will never not be funny to me

[butterflydm]

looking towards s3

I'm going to be doing a bit of wild speculation for s3, here, after going through the various book narratives and moments to check off what the show has already covered (including some speculation about certain plotlines having been subbed in for other ones) and so what's likely next for them in s3. Contains book spoilers through Knife of Dreams and casting and location spoilers for s3.

(for a more thorough "what's already been done", @sixth-light has one here: what's in and what's out: characters; worldbuilding)

The Eye of the World:

I think we can probably all agree that the one big thing from EotW that hasn't been covered yet is the introduction of the Caemlyn-related characters, other than Elayne -- namely Elaida, Gawyn, Galad, and likely Morgase. We know that this will happen in s3, at least to a certain extent.

They came in clutch at the last minute with giving us Elayne taking care of her 'bird with a broken wing' aka her meet-cute with Rand.

The Great Hunt:

Pretty much everything narratively important about TGH was covered this season. Some of it was remixed (Rand's 'Fal Dara' encounter with Siuan and the Aes Sedai happening in 2x7 in Cairhien instead of at the start of the arc) but pretty much everything important has been done.

And Siuan being much harsher with Rand in the show than in the books makes it understandable why Rand is not willing to trust Aes Sedai (with a handful of exceptions). imo the change in Siuan's plotline was done for three reasons: a. to set-up Rand's increasing wariness around the White Tower and Aes Sedai; b. to have a narrative reason why none of our main characters are going back to the White Tower next season; c. to set up a character arc for Siuan in s3+. Obviously, time will tell on whether or not I'm right, but those were the reasons that came to mind immediately after 2x7 and I still think they're likely reasons.

re: 'flicker-flicker' - the most important thing coming out of flicker-flicker is that Mat is determined never to 'betray' Rand, like it's implied that he did in some of the flicker worlds, and Mat has absolutely made that emotional commitment due to the events of this season.

The only important minor character from bk2 specifically that we don't get introduced to is Egeanin, I think, and again, that's a case of "if we have her, we want to introduce her when she's more narratively relevant", which would be either s3 or s4 in this case, for Nynaeve and Elayne's storyline. We also still have Egwene's introduction to Gawyn being held in reserve for when he enters the story.

The Dragon Reborn:

Elements pulled from TDR into s2:

Perrin (and thus viewers) getting introduced to Aiel culture (though through Aviendha rather than Gaul, combining two separate elements of bk3 into one introduction).

Mat being trapped in the White Tower and then released back out into the world.

Our introduction to Moiraine's spy network.

I think that Elyas being more human-apathetic plus Ishamael telling Perrin that "the more wolf you are, the more you're mine" may have subbed in for Noam and his loss of connection to humanity, driving Perrin to be wary of the wolf-connection.

Moiraine threatening Lan with a forced bond-change because she's trying to push him away.

Rand being hounded in his dreams and being lured to a site of prophecy by one of the Forsaken in an attempt to rescue Egwene.

Rand's moment of killing people and them kneeling to him (in the books, he actually sets them up to kneel; I liked the show's approach much better)

We also witnessed Mat having an actual reason for his Old Tongue memories and his fighting prowess and the show also may tie his luck into him blowing the Horn, given that he said his battle-cry, so I feel like the "archetype" he has in the Heroes is the Gambler (which I think the 'finn call him?). I really loved that all of Mat's random stuff has kinda been consolidated (and the Horn scene might be my favorite scene of the whole series thus far).

Rand being recognized as the Car'a'carn by Aiel searchers.

Elements that were not used but will happen next season: Perrin meeting Faile. I also think it's likely that Perrin will start going into TAR next season (which could give us either Birgitte or Uno | Gaidal Cain in a re-occurring role). Elayne and Nynaeve becoming Black Ajah Hunters (I'm unsure if Egwene will or if she's going to go straight to her bk 4 plotline; I suspect that she's going with Rand), which is also their bk4 plot. I do think we'll get both Perrin (via Hopper) and Egwene (via the Wise Ones) learning TAR.

Things I'm not sure we'll get:

I'm doubtful that we'll get Egwene & Elayne's Accepted tests at all:

Egwene may come across as an even better patsy/figurehead to Salidar if she's a novice

2x7 really makes me feel doubtful that The Dragon Reborn's friends will be able to waltz into Tar Valon and then waltz back out again (unless they are returning specifically to spy out the mood in TV re: the Dragon and Moiraine?)

Egwene choosing over and over to abandon Rand in the Tests feels like it would directly contradict her character arc in s2, where her motivation for working so hard in the Tower was to give herself the strength to protect the ones she loves.

@sixth-light suggested the idea that Egwene might get her "what is to come" vision in Rhuidean and I like that idea a lot -- if she goes with Aviendha to the silver rings and catches glimpses of her potential futures!

I feel like Aludra might not get introduced until very soon before we need to take the Stone of Tear (or potentially not until after Ebou Dar, when she's needed to create the dragons).

I also suspect that we'll skip Thom's storyline from this book just like we skipped his storyline from bk2 and go straight into his post-Tear bk4 storyline, since Rand is going to be doing Aiel politics and not Westlands politics next season. So my current suspicion is that Thom is going to be part of Elayne & Nynaeve's storyline (and then once Elayne and Nynaeve come back into Rand's storyline, that could be when Thom helps Rand).

This is also the book when balefire first appears (Rand uses it on Darkhounds; Nynaeve uses it for the first (and only?) time; and Moiraine uses it twice). Not sure when the show will introduce it, because I feel like it's going to be The One Way to actually kill Forsaken, so it may be held back closer to when one of them dies. I suspect we'll see Lanfear get doorway'd in s3, but I don't think any of the Forsaken will get killed off until s4 (Rahvin, if he exists) at the earliest. If Rand kills Rahvin with balefire in s4, that gives the rest of the Forsaken a reason to back off and keep their distance (especially if Moridin shows up in s5 to take the reins back over on prioritizing corrupting Rand over killing him).

What might happen in s3 but might be reserved for s4: the convergence on Tear and the various roads people take there. I feel like Tear is likely to come after the Waste and maybe even after Cairhien (Tear may be where Sammael is instead of Illian, but then Rand fails to kill him there and he flees to Illian?).

Also, as I keep noting in my reread posts (which is where I'm getting this info from) Mat is much less anti-Rand than fandom agreement had led me to believe/remember was happening in the books at this time. He dislikes The Dragon Reborn (TM) but his thoughts about Rand as a person tend to be more regretful or frustrated than fearful. So the show is doing fine there, since they've dealt with the The Dragon Reborn (TM) issue by having the whole "who is the Dragon plotline?" in s1.

The Fires of Heaven-A Crown of Swords:

I think we already covered "oh no someone else may get Lan's bond" and he'll go directly from Moiraine to Nynaeve, because Alanna has a more important forced bond to take (probably in s4). I am wondering if we'll see Nynaeve bonding Lan much earlier than in canon, maybe even at the end of s3 if Moiraine goes through the doorway and Nynaeve ends up in the same city as Rand & co.

Crossroads of Twilight-Knife of Dreams:

Guess who just got murdered! So... no Renna and no Seta. And maybe no more Suroth. The show has been ruthless with the Seanchan (not a complaint). The show is also leaning much more heavily on the friendship of the Two Rivers Five (plus now Elayne), so Mat doing any of the bullshit that he does in CoT & KoD feels less likely because this Mat doesn't have the excuse of dagger-sickness to forget what happened to Egwene in Falme. After the show made such a (beautiful! spectacular!) show of Mat being a good person at heart, even being a Hero of the Horn, which he wasn't in the books... yeah, they are not doing the book version of Mat & Tuon (thank fucking goodness). They may do a version of Mat & Tuon, but I think it will be very different from the books, if it happens.

One of the new interesting changes that the show appears to have done (from what Egwene said in 2x8) is make sul'dam extremely weak channelers instead of being learners. I think this has some fascinating implications re: Tuon because it means that a collar would 100% work on her. In the books, the sul'dam get tested along with all the other women to see if they are damane and if any of them have sparked, they end up caught.

It's only over long years of use that they develop their 'affinity' with their damane and this is when the collar would work on them. So, per book canon, it's entirely possible that putting a collar on Tuon during any of the books would fail to do anything, because she's still quite young and also is not 'complete' as often as many other sul'dam because of her high status. But in show canon? That collar will work 100%, because they use the Searchers to find marath'damane instead of testing every woman in the Empire every year (until they turn 25, I think it was). If the show is working backwards to decide on these changes, then it's entirely possible that this change in the way finding marath'damane is done was 100% specifically for Tuon's potential storyline down the road.

Also, I love that it means that Tuon is a weak-ass channeler, because that was always my head-canon for her anyway.

The Shadow Rising:

Elements already pulled from TSR+ into s2: Rand knows that Selene is Lanfear and Lanfear is offering to protect him from the other Forsaken and wants to work with him. And Rand also knows that "the Dark One" is actually Ishamael and the rest of the Forsaken are now out in the world. We've also learned about ji'e'toh already. TSR is also when Moghedien was introduced.

What likely won't happen in s3: I think Tear itself will be held back until after the arc in the Waste. They've already done some of the related character-work from the start of bk4 in s2 already, with Lanfear and Rand, and most of the other stuff (the 'finn doorway) could be moved to Falme if need be. Or, since we have the all characters going east, maybe it'll be in Caemlyn when the characters split up to their various plotlines (which would give us Elaida's Foretelling for Rand and Egwene meeting Gawyn) and then they wouldn't have needed to have Falme as a location shoot for s3 at all.

I do suspect that the Rand & Elayne relationship is being pushed to a later season and we'll likely get the beginnings of Rand & Aviendha instead (which makes me suspect that Elayne's storylines would get adjusted in a later season to actually give her time with Rand).

What likely WILL happen in s3: the Tower coup and Elaida taking over as Amyrlin; Rand & co going to the Waste and Rand becoming Car'a'carn while Mat gets his medallion and Egwene gets Wise One training; Elayne and Nynaeve (and Thom?) going Black Ajah hunting (or specifically after Liandrin?). Potentially we will see Rand and Aviendha catch feelings for each other as Rand and Egwene fall apart (and Lanfear stalks Rand from the sidelines, since she's not supposed to be interacting with him). And Perrin defending the Two Rivers, of course.

I don't think that we'll get Tuon this early, though we may get the prophecy (and the dread from the audience that Mat is destined to marry one of these horrible slaver people, because the Court of the Nine Moons has already been mentioned).

In addition to being a big book for Rand & Lanfear developments, TSR is wonderful for Rand & Mat as well. There are so many amazing moments for them in this book. If the show hits even a handful of these beats, s3 will be great for the Cauthor side of fandom. Especially with how Josha and Dónal are playing Rand & Mat as very handsy friends who are comfortable with physical touch.

So, what are some potential ways they could go with s3?

(I promise that any and all speculation with be at least 85% inaccurate and may be as much as 100%; does contain some casting and location spoilers for what we know about s3 so far)

Starting place in 3x1:

Option One: Falme subbed for Tear

We do Tear-stuff in Falme (doorway; maybe bubbles of evil) and then the characters split up for separate journeys.

Pros: making the most out of our current location! the characters are already there!

Cons: Have to pay a location fee for an additional season when they could instead use a s3 location.

Option Two: Caemlyn subbed for Tear

We know that Caemlyn is going to be in s3 and they might want to get the most out of their new location.

Pros: Might get Elaida's Foretelling of Rand. Egwene meets Gawyn without needing to go to the White Tower. Mat could do his 1v2 quarterstaff battle against Elayne's brothers. Means that everyone has already traveled significantly to the east during the break between seasons but they're all still together as a group, meaning we won't need as big a timeskip after this. And Elaida's Foretelling could even be the trigger for Rand & co needing to flee the city.

Cons: can't think of any but I'm sure they exist; this genuinely seems like such a good option to me that I am 100% marking it down to potentially write as a fic, if I ever get the time (I continue to collect plot bunnies at an alarming rate in this fandom!)

Option Three: Hurrying through BK3's ending (aka Tear is Tear)

This seems more expensive than it's worth, but maybe they got more money for s3!

Pros: bk3 Tear will be done, I guess?

Cons: expensive set piece and location that is then promptly abandoned so that everyone can go somewhere else

So, we've done our set-up episode and now we've moving on to: everyone goes somewhere else!

Where do they go?

Stop, Wait... Option Four: There Isn't A Set-Up Episode

This is the option for not having any set-up at all and just jumping into everyone's individual journeys.

Pros: Faster to get into the main story

Cons: No bonding time for the group as a whole; fewer character interactions; would probably make me sad

Well, we've either done our set-up or we haven't, so where is everyone going?

Perrin -> The Two Rivers

I mean, we all know it. Perrin is kinda the reason that I think we won't start with everyone already at their destinations, because I don't think Perrin's storyline in the Two Rivers is meaty enough to be stretched out over eight entire episodes.

Wondergirls -> ???

A White Tower stop-over seems fairly unlikely to me after 2x7, though there's a chance. I think it's more likely that we'll get them splitting up to go into their bk4 plotlines.

(If the Wondergirls do go to the White Tower, what is Rand doing during this time? How does Egwene reunite with Rand for her bk4 plotline?)

Verin burned her bridges with Siuan & Leane, potentially (she COULD probably talk herself out of being viewed as Black Ajah... maybe... but it's hard to see how she could talk herself out of being viewed as breaking Tower law) which implies to me that SHE isn't going to return to the Tower, and she is the one who introduces Dreaming to Egwene in the books. Which makes me lean towards the idea of Doing Tear (and the White Tower plots) in Caemlyn.

They could take some of the characters back to Tar Valon in s3 but... but that bridge between Moiraine and Siuan is so scorched right now that it's difficult to see Siuan being willing to let any of them leave the White Tower if they go there again.

Mat -> Rhuidean

Mat didn't touch the dagger, so he has no need to go back to the White Tower literally ever, especially since one of his Hero friends put the Horn away into an interdimensional pocket for later.

Rafe has implied that we will see Mat's quarterstaff battle at some point (unless he just meant that we would see Mat wielding a quarterstaff against two opponents at once, which definitely happened in 2x8), which leads me further to think about s3 starting in Caemlyn, because after that, Gawyn and Galad go off into separate plotlines.

If we assume that Caemlyn takes the place of both Tear and the White Tower for book 3 & early book 4 events, then everyone would go to their book 4 plotlines from here -- Perrin would go west to the Two Rivers; Rand & co would go to the Waste; Elayne & Nynaeve would go to do some Liandrin-hunting. We would only need five main locations for the season, at least two of which are pre-existing -- Caemlyn, the Two Rivers, Tar Valon, the Aiel Waste/Rhuidean, and whichever city Elayne & Nynaeve go to in order to hunt Liandrin (and if it's Cairhien, then they already have the location/set).

Events that I'm Pretty Sure we'll get in s3:

Rhuidean. Rand's walk through Aiel history and Mat's encounter with the foxes. Rand saving Mat's life. <3

Asmodean becomes Rand's teacher.

I do think we'll likely get Couladin proclaiming himself as the Car'a'carn and the chaos of Alcair Dal, because Mat killing Couladin is really what creates the BotRH and cements him as the leader.

The White Tower coup.

Nynaeve faces off against Moghedien... or maybe this season she will still be focused on Liandrin?

The Battle of the Two Rivers.

I think we will start to get Rand & Aviendha in this season, but slow-burn. But if they plan to do the Moiraine & Lanfear show-off at the end of the season, then you'd want the Rand & Aviendha relationship to begin to flower. And then Lanfear is out of the picture (as far as Rand knows), which would let him worry less about her killing any woman that he's attracted to.

Things that we Might Get in s3 (depending on pacing):

We might get either Cairhien or Tear at the end of the season. That really depends on pacing and I don't know how fast they plan to move through the arc in the Waste. There are really only two big Events in the Waste in bk4 -- Rhuidean and Alcair Dal; though there's also visiting Cold Rocks Hold and the attack there.

Moiraine and Lanfear's encounter with the doorway. The reason that I'm thinking this might happen in s3 is because someone (was it Rafe?) teased about a "big cast change" at then end of s3 that book readers would be familiar with. Losing Moiraine right as he gets a Forsaken as a teacher would be very intriguing.

If we are going to do the polycule (*crosses fingers hard*), then there needs to be a decent stretch of time where Elayne is actually allowed by the plot to spend time with Rand. We got our meet-cute and it was beautiful, so I have high hopes. There is also a new tor.com interview where Rafe says that Elayne and Rand have a 'huge arc' together.

For now, I think the time period after her book 4 plotline and before she gets involved in Ebou Dar seems like the best time (as opposed to just wandering the countryside for weeks because Nynaeve can't remember the word 'Salidar'). So after Rand has returned to the wetlands. I am going to speculate that s3 ends with the Battle of Cairhien while, at the same time, Elayne and Nynaeve go to Cairhien for their own story reasons. Because they've already done their book 4 plotline, and maybe part of their book 5 plotline, there's no need for them to hurry off right away. And Elayne spends most of s4 with Rand (and Aviendha) (and Mat). Elayne can help Rand navigate politics in Cairhien, and they can fall in love while being big ol' workaholics. We also could have Dumai's Wells happen here so that Rand can get rescued not only by Perrin but also by Mat, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, & Aviendha. Which would just be nice.

I do think, based on the Power of Friendship vibe that we had in the s2 finale, that the show is going to be bringing our characters back together a lot more often than the books did (and I'm happy about that).

So, based on that idea... a tentative outline for s3 (I am not expecting this to end up being at all accurate, lol, just feeling some things out about a potential way things could go based on what we've see so far in terms of how quickly the plot moves and how the show seems like it's more willing to reunite all the characters, so I am going to try to get everyone to Cairhien by ep8 so that they can reunite again; we also might be doing Tear instead at the end of the season):

ep1: The opening of the season is supposed to start with a 'bang'. Would they do the Tower coup this early in the season? Siuan ended s2 in a terrible political position, having the Dragon in her possession and then losing him. And if anyone finds out that she was conspiring with Moiraine for twenty years... otoh, would they want to show us Elaida in Caemlyn first, before taking her to the Tower for that plotline?

I'm not sure how much of a time-jump we'll get, though probably a bit of one, but I'm hoping we'll get to see all the characters together in the same location, as happened in Tear in the books. This may take place either in Falme or in Caemlyn, but our characters will have a chance to regroup and mingle. We may get some of our action from the start of book 4 here -- the bubble of evil, getting rumors of trouble in the Two Rivers. If the opening episode is in Caemlyn and not Falme, it may also feature: Mat vs Gawyn & Galad; Egwene and Rand (at least) meeting Gawyn and Galad. Rand meeting Elaida and getting a version of the Foretelling. This might also have our characters meeting up with Verin and Alanna in Caemlyn, and we may get our Verin & Egwene scenes and a certain gift of a twisted stone ring.

perhaps spurred by Elaida's Foretelling, our group scatters to their future destinations. Since they are much closer to the Two Rivers than they were in the books at this time, it might be that Loial leads Rand's group through the Ways to Rhuidean, rather than leading Perrin to the Two Rivers. Egwene meets the Wise Ones in TAR and decides she also needs to go to Rhuidean with Rand.

ep2: Perrin arrives in the Two Rivers and we get a look into that situation; Elayne and Nynaeve get interrogated by a woman who is definitely not secretly Moghedien. Rand and Mat ask permission to go to Rhuidean. In order to make it so that all the characters are heading in to the same place, maybe Elayne and Nynaeve went to Cairhien to investigate Liandrin's disappearance? Since all the 'known' Seanchan were killed off in the Battle of Falme, the show may have the Seanchan take s3 (and s4?) off as they regroup before their next offensive.

ep3: They've put a pretty heavy-hitter in as ep3 in s2 and it seems likely they would try to do the same in s3 because of the way that Prime drops shows, so let's call ep3 the Rhuidean episode, where we learn about the Aiel's past and Mat finds a doorway. Moiraine goes through the silver rings, learning about what will happen to her in the future, and writes some letters (alt: Moiraine goes through the doorway in Rhuidean as well and learns it there?).

ep4: Rand & co travel towards Alcair Dal (skipping Cold Rocks Hold); If the White Tower Schism didn't happen in ep1, maybe it happens here. I'm going to tentatively put the Coup here. Rahvin arrives in Caemlyn, if he exists?

ep5: Alcair Dal & Rand trapping Asmodean as a teacher (with Lanfear's help). Couladin announces that he's the Car'a'carn and decides to march on Cairhien, and Rand already feels guilty about getting Lanfear to help him escape in 2x7 and her torching the city, so he's extra motivated to stop him.

ep6: Battle of the Two Rivers, so that Perrin will be able to start his cross-country road trip to meet back up with everyone else by the end of the season? Maybe including the 'trap' for Faile that happened in TDR and it makes Perrin realize that he has feelings for her, which he feels guilty about. Asmodean begins teaching Rand.

ep7: Nynaeve and Moghedien have a confrontation in Cairhien and Nynaeve manages to defeat Moghedien, causing her to flee (or maybe this is Nynaeve defeating Liandrin? We might want to keep Moggy scary for the moment). At the end of the episode, the Shaido Aiel have arrived to lay siege to the city.

ep8: Battle of Cairhien - Mat kills Couladin and forms the Band of the Red Hand; Lanfear finds out that Rand and Aviendha have... slept together? kissed? have feelings for each other? And Moiraine and Lanfear have their appointment at the docks when Lanfear loses it as she realizes that after all her work, Lews Therin/Rand is never going to love her the way that she wants him to.

Then, in the name of 'letting the characters spend more time together', Rand's friends maybe actually get to hang out with him in s4 before people split up again, giving us a situation where the whole group gets to reassemble to save Rand at Dumai's Wells? Hard to guess without knowing how much will get covered in s3. They've done a great job pulling in plot lines from various books so far.

s2 did an amazing job of having a handful of themes that they explored through multiple characters and storylines, so I expect that s3 will also have some themes that they will be using. Not sure what it might be yet though once we get our s3 trailer (in, like, a year or a year and a half, lol) we'll probably have a better idea, because Halsey's "Control" being used for the s2 trailer was INCREDIBLY accurate for some of s2's themes -- "who is in control?" and the idea of fear and control and trying to own someone's power were very much at play in s2.

So what character arcs might we see in s3?

I think we're going to see Moiraine & Lan firmly established as mentors to Rand throughout the season, doing their best to prepare him for the future. And then Rand is potentially going to lose both of them at the end of the season (since I think that the show might bring all the characters together at the end of the season again, we might even see Nynaeve "bonding Lan to save his life" at the end of s3).

In general, there's just... honestly gonna be so much Rand stuff that I will be absolutely overwhelmed (in a good way). TDR-TSR-TFoH are my favorite run of the books and there are just so parts of TSR that are SO good (and a lot of them are Rand).

Theory for Mat's arc in s3: I wonder if we're going to start with him choosing to take a bodyguard-type role for Rand (because of his guilt over the stabbening) and transition to taking a general/captain-role at the end of the season (which would involve more independence in the future when he needs to leave Rand's plotline) as the Maidens take over as Rand's bodyguards. TSR is such a good book for both Rand and Mat in general, so I'm really looking forward to what the show does because the show has invested so much in their relationship already.

I am so so curious about what dynamic will be established for Rand & Asmodean and how many of the other characters might know the truth about him. In the books, Moiraine reveals in her letter to Rand that she knew who he really was but agreed with Rand that perhaps there was no choice but to work with him, because she agrees that Rand needs the training.

I do think we'll see some vibes between Rand and Elayne in the first episode, but that they won't act on them. But Rand was clearly struck by Elayne tenderly healing him with the sunlight in her hair and I do think we'll get some follow-up on that moment in ep1.

We'll also be getting Rand and Egwene pulling away from each other as romance partners (but perhaps settling into being trusted friends?). And I agree with @markantonys that it makes the most sense to have Rand & Aviendha as Rand's first established romance post-Egwene, because of the way the plotlines are set-up (Aviendha is actually going to be around Rand all season) and because she comes from a culture that leaves space for adding additional partners, so you don't need to use the misunderstanding loophole for Elayne and then Min to be added to the relationship in the future.

Perrin is going to come face-to-face with his guilt and grief over his wife's death when he goes back to the Two Rivers. Especially when he begins to catch feelings for Faile. We'll also see him training in TAR with Hopper. We'll see the continuation of his struggle with Dain. I do wonder if Dain might die at the end of s3, for similar reasons to why Renna, Seta, & Suroth died at the end of s2, leaving room for Galad to become the main Young Whitecloak figure in the future. Because the Whitecloaks spend several books not really being relevant in the middle part of the series.

Given how Nynaeve struggled with her block this season and it's been a real obstacle for her, one that she can't handwave away by doing the Bruce Banner "I'm always angry" thing like she kinda does in the books, I think that her main struggle this upcoming season is going to be trying to break her block and that they might even have her succeed at the end of the season against Moghedien -- much like s2 featured Egwene, Mat, & Moiraine coming into their powers (or back into their powers for Moiraine), s3 may see Nynaeve, Rand, & Perrin doing that.

The fact that Siuan disagreed so strongly with Moiraine in 2x7 makes me feel that it's more likely that she will survive the coup, because now she has tons of space for a character growth arc once she's struggling with actually dealing with her own stubborn Two Rivers person in the form of Egwene.

This will be Elayne's first season as an established member of the group -- one of the reasons that I think we'll get a set-up episode at the start of the season is that it makes sense to establish what her place is within the group. And then if Thom is in her storyline, we'll be able to explore a lot of her feelings about being the Daughter-Heir and her relationship with her mother, even if Morgase isn't shown on-screen.

Given that we killed off* all the 'known' Seanchan, I wonder if that means that we'll be taking a break from them in seasons 3&4, and then have them return at the end of s5(?), after Mat, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Lan have all gone to Ebou Dar (maybe Egeanin's plotline is shifted to Ebou Dar and we see that being explored at the start of s5 before the bulk of the Seanchan attack at the end?).

(* well, Suroth might not be dead, since we didn't actually see her die and she might have gotten rescued from the water, so she might be existing in a quantum state -- dead if they can't get the actress back later on but alive if they can)

We had a LOT of plotlines in s2 -- five major plotlines (Rand, Mat, and Perrin each got their own, while Egwene & Nynaeve and Moiraine & Lan did some sharing) plus we had the villain plotlines.

I’m guessing that we’ll only have three main plotlines in s3, which will give them all a bit more breathing room — we’ll have Rand & co in the Waste; Perrin & co in the Two Rivers; and Nynaeve & co doing a version of Tanchico. I think that the White Tower coup is likely to be a plotline for one-three episodes rather than something that spans the entire season.

And now, just for fun, a WoT s2 speculation scorecard! How well did I do?

I'll go backwards in time, so starting with my most recent speculation (that I did based on the 2x8 trailer that aired post 2x7).

That shot of Rand asking "who are you?" would be to that lovely shot of Elayne with sunlight in her hair: Correct!

Lanfear and Ishamael will fall apart while the Two Rivers kids stick together: Correct!

Elayne and Nynaeve will have to separate due to only have one sul'dam outfit: Wrong!

Hopper is going to die; Perrin will kill Daddy Bornhald in retaliation: Correct!

I had, like, three different guesses for the Horn situation so I'm not giving myself any credit there, lol

Turok will die by channeling, not by sword: Correct!

Moiraine and Lan will free damane as their plotline for this episode: Wrong!

Speculation for 2x7 made after trailer that came out after 2x6:

I do a lot of vague spec, the first firm thing I say without as much waffling is that Rand will be put under 'house arrest' by Siuan: Correct!

Mat saw Rand get taken by Lan & co: Wrong!

Lanfear and/or Ishamael arranges the fire in Foregate to free Rand from his 'house arrest' by the Aes Sedai: Correct!

Egwene gets to socialize with other damane: Wrong!

Speculation for 2x6-2x8 based on imdb listings for the last three episodes:

again, I do a lot of waffling and 'maybe this, maybe that', my first solid spec is that Liandrin's son would die in 2x6: Correct!

I did think we would get the royal wedding, so I will mark that: Wrong!

Natti Cauthon would appear as part of Ishy messing with Mat: Correct!

I thought the White Tower would be a location in these last three episodes: Wrong!

Yacissa will get killed by the Black Ajah: Wrong! (very happy to be wrong; I LOVE her)

Lanfear will help Rand out as his presence creates a wedge between Lanfear and Ishmael: ...kinda? I mean, she was Team Rand the second she learned Rand existed, lol.

Rand will leave Cairhien via Waygate: Correct!

Maigan will be Pura: Wrong! (no one is Pura, at least not now, and Maigan is very dead)

Loial will get to visit Egwene in the 'kennels': Wrong!

Egwene won't be freed until 2x8: Correct!

The 2x8 cold open will focus on LTT & Ishamael: Correct!

Ishamael will experience a painful reversal of expectations in 2x8 as his plans fall to pieces: Correct!

I also speculated here that Perrin would kill Bornhald in this version but I already counted that one above.

Uno will reappear as one of the Heroes of the Horn: Correct!

Speculation for 2x4 based on the first three episodes:

Moiraine doesn't already know Rand is in Cairhien: Wrong!

Lan will show the Lanfear poem to Alanna & co: Wrong!

Liandrin will tell Nynaeve that Perrin & co were captured by the Seanchan: Correct!

Logain was deliberately placed in Cairhien to lure Rand there: Correct!

Before we got the episode titles but after the trailer came out:

Siuan's trip to Cairhien occurs in episode 6: Correct!

Rand will still be wandering around the countryside when he meets Selene: Wrong!

Moiraine and Lan will be researching at Verin's in 2x1: Correct!

Rand and Selene's main episode will be ep2: Wrong!

The shot of Lan on Mandarb in the woods will be in Nynaeve's Accepted Test: Correct!

Nynaeve's Accepted Test will happen in ep3: Correct!

Moiraine and Rand reunite in ep4: Correct! (wrong about how/why though)

Perrin meets the Seanchan in ep5: Wrong!

Perrin meets Aviendha in ep5: Correct!

Rand meets Logain in ep6: Wrong!

"We get the New Spring flashback scene, see Moiraine & Siuan happy and young, then hear Gitara's Foretelling": Close! (I guessed it for ep6)

Verin will be in Perrin's plotline: Wrong!

Liandrin will be confirmed as a darkfriend in ep6: Close! (it was ep5)

Egwene, Nynaeve, & Elayne will spend the first 5 episodes in the White Tower and the last 3 in Falme: Close! (it's more 4 in WT; 1 traveling; 3 Falme)

I did a huge post of How Does Mat Get To Falme, which ended up being hilariously incorrect as "Lanfear has him bonked over the head and then Travels him there" was not on my radar, lol. But my favored method included him reuniting with Rand in Cairhien, so I'm glad that part still happened.

Anyway, I didn't do so awful in my predictions, I think.

(In terms of 'accidental predictions', I did write a fic involving Rand being tied to a bed in Cairhien by his lover literally months before we had any clue it would be happening in the show, - and while I'm talking about randomly accidentally being a Prophet in my fics: in Voice, I had Lanfear (who we had not yet met in the show) giving solid relationship advice - "That's fear talking, not fact" & I had this line for Mat: "Maybe Mat was destined to be a failure and a disappointment, like his father. But he wouldn't just lie down and let it happen." which is essentially what it feels like we just got from him in 2x8.)

[deeplyridiculouslyinlove]

Ranking Wheel of Time Characters and their Narrative Arcs

I've been thinking about a post like this since probably book 8, so here we go. My ranking of the arcs of the major characters in the Wheel of Time book series, and separately my ranking of those actual characters (because they are not the same!!)

Arcs:

Nynaeve

I could say a literally never-ending amount of things about my darling Nynaeve. I think she has the most internal development of any character in the series, which makes her feel especially human to me. Getting to watch her learn that her anger is rooted in fear and a lack of control and to confront that was so powerful and it felt very real. Watching her grow from hating Moiraine to standing beside Moiraine at the end with Rand made me so emotional. And speaking of Rand, it was so nice to have one of the original Emonds Fielders with him in the later books to witness his descent--I think it added depth and believability both to her character and her position having cared for the younger ones when they were kids, and also really helped humanize Rand. While I tend to think Nynaeve's relationship with Lan is really random since they barely speak to each other when they fall over their skis in love with one another (apparently), by the end of the books I'd accepted it and it also made me emotional when she went behind Lan's back to find all the other Malkieris to ride into battle with him. I just feel really proud of Nynaeve and want the world for her and I'm glad that she was given a real growth arc the series.

2. Mat

So I grew from thinking Mat was a bit annoying and childish, to finding him fine as a character but listening to his chapters at 1.6 speed because I didn't care about carousing at inns or random bands of fighters, to having his chapters be my favorite. And I think that's because Mat really evolves throughout the series in a way that still feels very believable and true to the same person/character. He's is written so well as a character learning lessons while staying true to the core of who he was in the first book. I felt a lot of pride for Mat when he rescued Moiraine, and although I saw some chatter by folks on the internet that they'd be fine if the Daughter of the Nine Moons thing doesn't happen in the show, I actually really liked his relationship with Tuon because it was one of the few relationships we saw actually build and develop slowly. Despite being a fated relationship, they also spend time together and develop a rapport. It was a fated marriage not fated love, and I thought that worked much better than the fated loves of Rand’s polycule. I also liked that Mat and Tuan's relationship had some ambiguity until the end; although they clearly cared for one another, we never saw them come to really understand one another, which felt authentic to the situation they were in. Mat is also one of the very few men in these books who actually recognizes that there are things he doesn't know and doesn't need to be involved in, and I appreciate that from a male character in what ultimately remains a pretty patriarchal world despite RJ's structural changes to society (I can back up this statement about patriarchy, but that is a whole separate post). I think this is likely at least in part because Mat doesn't engage with the Power, which is the part of the books that most upholds patriarchal stereotypes and values. Now I'm rambling about Mat more than his arc, but I think he both has a lot of depth and grows internally in significant ways and I really appreciate it!

3. Aviendha

I love Aviendha as a character, and I think her arc is another really good example of slow internal growth. We see get to see her go from Maiden to Wise One to the person who discovers the new message hidden in Rhuidian and what that means for her entire people. We see her struggle with what it means to have left the Waste and what she feels is right for the future. And all of this without that many point-of-view chapters compared to other characters! Aviendha's relationship with Rand also feels the most authentic to me of any of his three women. We actually get to see their dynamic build and see them spending time together, it’s not just like “oh I’m fated to love him!” They also spend time apart and Aviendha doesn't spend that time pining over him, but rather focused on her own goals and the bigger picture. From the narrative, I get why they like each other and also why they are a good match for each other. I don't love her getting injured in the way she does at the Last Battle because I'm not really sure what purpose it serves (I guess it's the ultimate sacrifice for an Aiel to not be able to walk or fight?), but if my biggest qualm with her arc is only at the very end, I'll still rank it quite high.

4. Egwene

When I started reading the books and talking to friends about the gender dynamics in them and the female characters, so many of them mentioned how Egwene gets one of the best arcs in the series. And while I don't disagree with that (I have her ranked in the top 5 still!), I think the fact that Egwene is not a ta'veren in the series really hurts her arc in the later books. Once she's Amyrlin, and particularly once she goes back to the tower as Amyrlin, I feel like she starts to get plot armor that detracts from her actual development. All she has to do is talk and people are completely swayed to her side in a way that I think sort of stunts her internal growth. I loved her time with the Wise Ones in the Waste and with the Aiel and I think it really showcased her eagerness and dedication in a way I related to, and it made her growth in Tel'aran'rhiod and becoming the Amyrlin feel really deserved. Her ending was tragic and powerful and somehow it both doesn't feel like what she deserved but also feels like it lives up to Egwene and I feel really conflicted about it!! I'm was very meh on the Gawyn stuff, since I don't think it really added anything and he's a bit of a downer of a character--honestly, Egwene is the character in the books I most wish had just not had to have a romantic relationship. That said, unlike a lot of other relationships in the seires, we at least see Egwene's feelings for Gawyn develop over time in the dream world so it wasn't as frustrating for me as some other characters' romantic arcs.

5. Rand

For me Rand's and Egwene's arcs are really really close in terms of how much I like them, but I think there are things missing in the execution of Rand's arc that make it a bit lower for me--had it been done slightly better (from my perspective) I think it would have edged out Egwene. I really *want* to empathize with Rand starting around book 11 when his PTSD and the weight of everything else he’s carrying really starts to impact him. But because he spent the first five books whining about how everyone is trying to use him as a puppet (and particularly suspecting literally any woman with power before he had been given any reason to do so), his later arc doesn’t lead well into him then being someone you’re supposed to empathize with in my opinion. Particularly because his whole arc in the later books is about love and compassion, but I don't feel like we get that from him in the early books? I find it very confusing. I think for that progression to work we really needed a part of his arc where trusting and/or showing compassion to someone leads to serious harm, then he turns hard, and then he remembers the need for compassion. Maybe I’ve just forgotten it but I really can’t think of anything at all like that first step in the books? He distrusts the people who eventually hurt him? And things generally work out for him, even though he’s struggling internally? Anyway, this rating is higher than it otherwise would be because of how much I *want* it to work because having a chosen one who so clearly struggles with the weight that destiny places on him is interesting and the madness angle is also interesting to me. Oh also, I think Rand should have actually died at the end and that not doing so makes his arc more boring, sorryyyyy.

6. Faile

Faile is another character I really wanted more for. I hated the weird dynamics in her relationship with Perrin, but I could have liked them together without the physical abuse and if the power dynamics had felt more consensual and didn't have this whole element of her expecting Perrin to behave towards her in a way that he clearly didn't want to. Her being the lady to his lord was cute! I also liked Faile's progression from being a Hunter of the Horn to guarding the horn at the end. I like how self suffiicient she was and how she was able to find a way to combine what she was born for/raised for and what her parents wanted for her (being a noblewoman) with what she wanted (adventure and love).

7. Perrin

I have very few real issues with Perrin's arc and I’m sure other people liked it a lot. My ranking it relatively low is much more that it bored me and I left the series unsure of what it was trying to say than it being a bad arc or doing Perrin a disservice. I hated Perrin's relationship with Faile, and I hated that I hated it because (as discussed above) I think it had a lot of potential. Like Mat, I appreciated that Perrin did not think he needed to be involved in everything nor that he was always right, and I found his growth from boy to man quite believable and that it took place over the course of the books in a way that was well-constructed. I found the whole question of hammer vs axe and his contemplation of the Way of the Leaf to be really interesting! But I'm not sure I fully grasped the resolution of that debate and what the entire focus on it in the narrative was trying to say. And I feel the same about his struggle with the wolf side of him. Is the point just that violence is sometimes needed? And/or that it eats us up from inside? (But also that we have to accept that?)

8. Elayne

I want to do my best to separate Elayne from her arc, since I personally don't love her character for reasons purely of personal preference. I think the reasons her arc specifically is lower for me is that I feel like we don't get to see her growing into being a queen, since one of her primary character traits is that she is already so royal when they all meet her. I think the decision to have her win her crown in Caemlyn with a battle where they just snuck up behind the other forces was a weak one -- why couldn't they have defeated these people before if it was that easy? I also don't love that she gets no time to like learn how to be a queen before she is more focused on becoming a mother. The whole pregnancy arc doesn't sit quite right with me. She sleeps with Rand literally once and it's basically just to get pregnant? But this just builds off of what I dislike about how she just decides she's in love with Rand one day because she is fated to be. Give me the scene where they bond over war strategy and thinking like rulers like six books earlier instead of in the last book! It also seems like there's no reason she and Aviendha couldn't have become friends before realizing they both liked Rand instead of because they are forced into proximity by that fact, and I also feel like she and Rand should have spent actual time together before falling for each other--to my mind the way her part of the polycule goes down weakens Elayne's relationships with both Aviendha and Rand, which otherwise could have been interesting.

9. Moiraine

I have far too much to say about my baby Moiraine. I'm including New Spring in these arcs, and reading that made me want to reread the whole series in a new light. I love her. I love her I love her I love her. And to me New Spring makes her arc in the main series both more powerful and more tragic. Seeing in New Spring just how determined she is and also how much self-doubt she carries and how much her Aes Sedai serenity of the later books is disguising inner turmoil is so rewarding. I wish we had gotten to see so so much more of it. I know that she has to be mysterious to our main characters, but I don't think she has to be mysterious to the readers, particularly once we are more than a few books into a fourteen book series. To that end, I know why she had to go away (she is the Merlin character after all!), but I wish she had come back a few book sooner and we could have seen literally any interiority about reckoning with her time in the Tower of Ghenjei. The Moiraine in New Spring would have been going CRAZY both leading up to knowing she had to go through that archway and while stuck in the tower--even if she was being tortured, which she also would have withstood for a while. The fact that she couldn't take action that it was such a passive way of supporting Rand and his mission would have killed her, but also she would have been so very resolute, and I wish we could have seen that more. Instead, she just like shows up right before the last battle, speaks her piece, goes to help Rand (presumably thinking she's going to die??), and we see none of it from her POV! She never sees Siuan again and because we can't see into her mind that's just like...chill?? And obviously I hate the book pairing her with Thom, particularly her *offering to give up her abilities* for him. I see what it adds for his character arc, but what does it add for hers? Plus there is literally no reason to remove her powers and give her that powerful ter'angreal instead. That's just RJ's obsession with disempowering women and I despise it.

10. Siuan

Oh Siuan. My other baby Siuan. I'm only ranking her arc this high because I think it had a lot of potential to be telling an interesting story, but I think her ending was so horrible I can barely think about it. There was so much potential here to be telling a story about how you can have power and influence and be important even if you are less powerful and that the strength to manipulate and steamroll people is not the only way to make a difference, but I feel like this would have been a much more interesting message if she was the only (or one of the few) powerful women to get knocked down like this rather than it happening to literally every woman with power at the beginning of the series in one way or another. I particularly hated that with Siuan they did this knocking her down a peg in a way that made her younger and pretty for an old man (when she was only like 40 in the first place I might add!)--and she also started acting younger in a way that felt strange. I liked her teaching Egwene, but why couldn't she have some of the teacher vibes Moiraine did? And the way she dies with no one noticing or caring and it making basically no difference to the plot is so horrible. And, I'm sorry, it's not what the character deserved. Nor was it in line with the message I thought her arc was trying to send about the ability to have an impact no matter how unpowerful in traditional ways. And it happens because she doesn't stay with a man?!?! No one even knows she mattered after she was deposed and it’s all so unfair.

11. Lan

I feel like Lan doesn't really grow that much as a character since he spends the entire series basically just expecting to die in various ways at different times. Even with New Spring I don't feel like we get a good sense of what his character is meant to be doing besides impacting other characters in the series. I am not against his relationship with Nynaeve, but I don't think the books flesh it out very well. And I'm still mad he ends the series mad at Moiraine--where is their New Spring dynamic of him vibing with her even when he's annoyed with her? Obviously his leading the Malkieri into the blight really hit me in the feels and was a great culmination of his plight, however, which is why I still think the arc deserves an honorable mention.

12. Thom

Thom's arc is basically just from hating Aes Sedai to marrying Moiraine, and getting continually paired with weirdly young women. I guess he learns to overcome prejudice based on his nephew's death? I do like the role he plays with Rand and Mat and their respective character development as they grow up from the Two Rivers to adventurers, but I'm not sure that's really his arc or development. But for that I'm giving him a higher ranking than his Moiraine arc alone deserves.

13. Tuan

I don't think think Tuan gets that much of an arc. While she becomes Empress, she doesn't seem to grow or change her mind on things during the series, and mostly she puts aside things she doesn't like very much with intentions of dealing with them later. BUT I like how her and Mat challenge each other and engage with each other, and I think the internal growth is somewhat implied or is something that would have happened if we had had more time with her. I wish the entire Seanchan plot was more resolved at series end, but that's not specific to Tuan.

14. Loial

This may be controversial, but I don't like Loial's arc very much! I don't think he needed to get married! I'm glad he seems happy about it in the end, but it feels unnecessary. I loved him adventuring and writing his book and being sort of childlike in a really endearing way, but everything with his mom and with Erith took him out of the story for a long time and seemed to be sending the message that ultimately everyone wants to settle down. Let him explore and write his book and be a late bloomer! Idk.

15. Min

I am ranking Min even below the characters that only have a fraction of an arc because I loved Min so much in the earlier books and I hate the way the series treated her subsequently. When we first meet her she is determined to be fully herself, despite a talent that makes her stand out and a personality inclined against confrontation. She's brave and interesting! I hated watching her become more ladylike for Rand, and for a while essentially being absolutely nothing more than a lover and comfort for Rand. I really wish we had had more lingering payoff for the many books that Min was reading and trying to parse out what the prophecies meant, but it felt like Cadsuane was basically like "yes I agree" and then...it was no longer about Min having figured it out?

And just for fun, here would be my list of these same characters from ones I like most to ones I like least (although I like them all tbh!!)

Characters:

Moiraine (main trilogy + new spring)

Nynaeve

Egwene

Moiraine (main trilogy only)

Aviendha

Mat

Siuan (main trilogy AND main trilogy + new spring)

Loial

Rand

Lan (main trilogy + new spring)

Perrin

Lan (main trilogy only)

Faile

Elayne

Tuan

Thom

[lakeofsilverpike]

I want to preface this by saying that Nynaeve is not a character that I think particularly much about, so I apologize to the Nynaeve experts if my take is off.

Episode three was interesting because the premise of the Accepted test is that the person being tested makes a choice. They face temptation and then choose. It felt like this rendition of the test turns this premise on its head.

Book Nynaeve makes a choice. She sees a fantasy of the life she imagines with Lan and then remembers the people she has a duty to and leaves.

Show Nynaeve chooses to live the fantasy. It’s only after her Lan is killed that she leaves. And yes there is guilt throughout the arches about having power but not using it when the world and people she loves need her to. But she chooses the fantasy instead. And then she is forced out of the fantasy. She watches her friends murdered then Lan murdered. And then she tries to leave with her fantasy child.

It’s not a choice to turn away from something she dreams of for her duty. It’s watching her dream die and then going through the arch.

I like that she comes back not because she chooses to face her responsibility to the world but because the arches show her that running from it will only lead to everyone she loves dying.

She feels very similar to Rand in this way. She is not yet choosing. She is recognizing that she has no choice. That choosing her selfish fantasy still leads to everyone she loves dying. So she has no choice but to fight.

It’s an interesting change, because if the test is at least in part about temptation then show Nynaeve fails. But then she gets another arch to go through once the dream is taken away. As if the pattern will not actually let her choose. Yes she chooses to walk through the arch but only after everything good about remaining has been taken away. There is a choice, but it is so limited as to only offer one real option at that point.

On a related note, I am happy so far with how Lan and Nynaeve are depicted this season. They got a little dramatic in 1x08. A lot of big feelings and declarations for two people who knew each other a month or two and slept together once (but Lan is the most dramatic so I suppose I can forgive it. And Nynaeve is having feelings for someone maybe for the first time in her life and that tends to make people dramatic).

Lan is rightly focused on his twenty year long relationship at the moment. And Nynaeve is dreaming about Lan in a way that feels so true to very early in a relationship. She fantasizes about him choosing her over Moiraine (without confronting the reality of loving someone who also loves another person deeply and intimately). She imagines Lan as a househusband in the Two Rivers (different from book Nynaeve who sees them in Malkier). She doesn’t know Lan well. Right now he is a person she can meld in her mind to her fantasy partner. In this episode this isn’t Lan. This is a fantasy Nynaeve has of a life she wishes for that she can’t have because the Last Battle is coming. Her Lan is not the person fighting since he was a child against the Dark. Her fantasy Lan is in this way the antithesis of Lan - willing to give up his sense of duty to the Light and his relationship with Moiraine.

It makes me hopeful that when Lan and Nynaeve get together in the show there may be real conversations and complexity and figuring out the reality of loving Lan. The truth is that Nynaeve cannot really be with Lan unless she is capable of understanding his love for Moiraine. As Alanna says it needs to be messy first. Nynaeve goes into her test still imaging the unmessy version. This episode makes me more hopeful the show may explore the more real version of what their relationship would entail.

[gunkreads]

I sacked the fuck up and watched episode 1 of season 2.

Honestly? It's pretty good. I do agree with the incredibly well-considered and thorough commentary about how incredibly stupid it is to have Nynaeve train with a sword, not to mention how incongruous that scene felt within the show's canon and how pace-breaking it was, but besides that, it was honestly nice! Everyone and everything look(s) great. Acting is stellar as usual.

I definitely had an easier time forgetting to track book divergences than I did in S1, so the complete abandonment of canon was totally chill this time.

That said, there are a couple quick things:

Biggest gripe right up front, and one that is either going to sound INCREDIBLY stupid or VERY salient depending on what your priorities are when reading the books: the fights are too cool. I say this as a huge fan of wuxia, martial arts, and western action movies: I want less visually impressive fights. Jordan was the absolute reigning king of "violence is bad and stupid and scary and incredibly, incredibly uncool". It's a major part of why I like his writing--not only that I like that he sees things that way, but that it means he inverts a lot of tropes by completely disconnecting glory from violence. The show doesn't have that misgiving. The show very much says "stand here and watch this fight." To its immense credit, the show makes the fights very tense, knock-down-drag-out mud fights, leaning on the fear aspect, which is as much as I should hope for in a media landscape that really, really demands cool shit. I still want less effort to be put into making the fights elegantly choreographed and more effort into making them chaotic and scary. No, I don't know how to do that. Yes, I'm making up problems here. Yes, I'm griping "oh the show isn't made exactly the way I want it in my head." However: yes, I think that the portrayal of violence in any Wheel of Time adaptation is an incredibly important litmus test for me to know if the people adapting it have similar priorities to me.

S2E1 has several dialogue lines about how quiet Lan is, which feels very self-contradictory with how chatty he was in S1. Maybe that's still a comparison to book canon, but he was fairly open and talkative in S1, so if they're trying to course-correct that in S2, it's being done in the form of a very light retcon. Which is... fine, whatever, just a little weird.

Perrin's letter threw me off a lot, actually. I couldn't tell how much, if at all, it'd been censored by the Tower, but regardless, the prose in it felt very weird coming from such a physical character who doesn't seem to express much interest in writing or reading. He's read most of the same books as Rand (the Two Rivers' resident literature nerd), yeah, but that's book canon, so show-canon Perrin's written voice being that highfalutin--for lack of a better word--felt off.

Elyas was interesting. Fusing him and Hurin is understandable, but a little sad, if only because I like Hurin and his minor role in the story. It's fine, though. I liked Elyas' thousand-yard-stare--that was a wonderful acting decision. He felt simultaneously calm and jumpy in a very fun and interesting wild-man way.

The lantern scene would've been, in my opinion, a much better (if cliched) place to end the episode.

The one point of book divergence that did kind of catch me, though, was the fight between Lan and the Myrddraal. It felt like two things happened there: one, Myrddral got way easier to kill (mechanically and logistically, cut off their heads and they die style); and two, Lan got way worse at killing them. It's a really weird gripe, since the two functionally cancel each other out, so pay it little mind.

But yeah I had a good time.

[cannoli-reader]

Fuck, marry, kill. Categories are: Wondergirls, taverin, Rand's wives, Aiel Wise One trio, Amyrlins. Go.

These are stupid games, and I will only entertain this one, because I think there is something to be gained in understanding the characters, in order to give a proper answer. Or just show everyone what an idiot you are.

So.

Wondergirls. Probably not hard to guess for people who know me.

F - Nynaeve. Yeah, she has a lot of puritan village elder vibes, but all three of them are rather uptight and killjoys. On the other hand, from the mouth of someone who has experience with Nynaeve: "...I'll miss having my back clawed."

Nynaeve is great in the sack. Per a guy who has plenty of experience.

M - Elayne. She's rich, she can cook and despite the entitlement and arrogance, has no problem letting someone else take the lead if it makes them happy, while being ready to step in and take character herself if they screw up. Unlike certain other people in this group, she's not going to be a ball-buster just for the sake of proving to the world she's in charge. Elayne is the one who works at being a partner. She doesn't need a leader, and she doesn't need to be the boss.

K - Egwene. If for no other reason, she's the shortest. She's a killjoy. She has the most attitude and the least justification for it. You'd have to work to find a trio that puts her into any other slot without actively evil or physically repulsive people.

Ta'veren.

F - Mat. Experience, and he's not going to make you work for it. He has an actual philosophy about seeking to make his partners happy. As opposed to "What are you doing, don't you know how hateful I am?"

M - Rand. The right balance between commitment-shy and clingy. Fertility also seems to be a strength. Easily the most responsible of the three as well.

K - Perrin. This is actually not a default, "Kill Perrin" was the first and easiest choice for this trio, before figuring out which to assign Rand and Mat. He's the worst friend and the least considerate of the trio, plus the first one to be an actual murderer. Even his episodes of self-pity are less interesting than Rand's.

Rand's partners.

F - Aviendha. One of the most athletic characters, and frankly, probably not qualified for the marriage one, given her very ta'veren-esque approach to understanding the opposite sex.

M - Elayne again. For the reasons above. Although Min & Aviendha are tighter competition for her than Two Rivers girls, they both seem a lot more high maintenance.

K - Min. I never really warmed to her relationship conduct with Rand or thought it cute or charming, and when you add in the fact that she uses sex to manipulate or extract promises she has no business asking for from her partner, you definitely don't want her for the other two places. And frankly, she's far and away the easiest target.

Wise Ones (I am assuming Bair, Melaine & Amys)

F - Bair. She's been around the block, she knows what she's doing. She seems like the one most prone to dirty jokes, which suggests she's fun.

M - Amys. She's pretty chill about Rhuarc doing whatever he wants, even if she apparently has the unfortunate habit of collecting teenage daughters. You don't see her trying to change him, either.

K - Melaine. She was apparently militantly single, before suddenly flipping and wanting a husband out of the blue, and seems like she's both a micromanager and not very good at it, and clingy to boot. Probably a lot of work in the sack, too. And for Aiel, having twins named Egwene and Min is probably the equivalent of "Sunshine" and "Peace". Or a suburban white lady naming her kids Mei Ling and Shaquana. Plus, she has the worst poker face in talks with Aes Sedai, and frankly, does the least useful stuff of the group in the story.

(For record, Sorilea goes into the Kill slot no matter whom she tags in for)

Amyrlins.

F - Egwene. Youngest, supposedly really good-looking. Probably the least deserving of execution in this trio, but for reasons above, not putting a ring on that.

M - Elaida. She can knit, and is the only one proven capable of maintaining a long-term functional personal relationship, retaining Morgase's trust and friendship as her advisor for a quarter of a century, before circumstances outside her control messed that up. Good with kids, too. The ability to get the kids to play outside in winter time canNOT be overvalued. And she doesn't let them get away with any crap or slacking either. She takes an interest in landscaping, which I absolutely hate. Maybe you don't want her as chairman of the board you're on, but she seems a pretty good partner in the day to day stuff. Also, I like her inclination to troll assholes who are backstabbing her, but she can't quite get rid of them yet, like Meidani.

K - Siuan. She's just about the worst of the significant good guys and people actively fighting for the Light. She's egocentric, and a classic pointy-haired boss. She is the worst combination of locked in to institutional thinking, and at the same time, willing to abandon established practices on (generally ill-advised) whims. You kind of get the sense that the Pattern put her in charge of the White Tower specifically because it couldn't be anything but an obstacle to the Dragon Reborn, and Siuan is the best bet to drive it into a ditch. She also sucks at laundry, and I seem to recall it being implied she's a bad cook, too. And from her interactions with Bryne and behavior in Duranda Tharne's establishment, she's probably a ton of work, highly critical and a dead fish in the sack, all in one horrific package.

That was more interesting and fun than I thought it would be. Thanks, Anon.

[iliiuan]

Some thoughts on the tests for Accepted and Aes Sedai (and Wise One and Dragon)

Spoilers for everything wot

In order of publication

Nynaeve's Accepted test in the books

This is the first encounter we have with the Aes Sedai concept of how to filter for membership: You must face your fears in the video game vr experience. You also must return when the portal appears or you'll be stuck there or maybe dead we don't actually know for sure. Be steadfast!

The first arch is fear from the past. For Nynaeve, this manifested as being chased naked by Aginor through an MC Escher maze. Definitely terrifying.

The second arch is fear in your present. For Nynaeve, this manifested as a new Wisdom taking over Emmond's Field and poisoning the residents. Also terrifying.

The third arch is fear in your future. Nynaeve sees herself as Queen of Malkier, in a land untouched by the Blight, living happily married to Lan with their three children. This is decidedly NOT terrifying. It is, in fact, her fantasy dream life. Is the fear in having to leave it behind? Unclear. I think we could justify the scenario, though, by pointing out that the Aes Sedai are playing with things they barely understand. Another explanation could be that the experience in the test is related to whatever the person entering has been psychologically primed for. So, Nynaeve was primed for fear in the first two, and for having to abandon something she wants in the third.

Rand's flicker experience in the portals

Why, yes, I do consider this to parallel the Accepted test and the Wise Ones apprentice test. Rand sees a hundred, a thousand lifetimes play out and he loses in every. single. time. I don't think traumatizing even begins to touch it.

Egwene's Accepted test in the books

Due to the interference of the Dreamweaver, I believe that Egwene's test did not show her greatest fears, but rather versions of her future.

Her past future shows her married to Rand al'Thor, unrecognized Dragon Reborn, living in the Two Rivers with their daughter and missing Tarmon Gaidon.

Her present future shows her not knowing how to help Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn, escape the sickness of the taint and live to face Tarmon Gaidon.

Her future future shows her as Amyrlin, doing battle against Elaida and the Black Ajah. The tower has captured Rand al'Thor, man who has channeled, but she can't quite save him from the Aes Sedai.

Egwene's visions hold the prophecy of possibility, but she doesn't engage with them as a way to interpret the things that happen, which is a shame. They would have given her some helpful insight beginning in Salidar.

(Another side point - Jordan still had the ageless face caused by using the One Power instead of as a result of using the Oath Rod. One of the less consequential retcons, but still jarring when you reread.)

Moiraine's trip through the Rhuidean future life rings in the books

Moiraine, stoic to a fault, is reduced to tears. Her demeanor in the sweat tent after passing through the rings is chilling when you understand exactly what it takes to ruffle her.

Moiraine's Aes Sedai test in the books

Moiraine proves that she is the Most Aes Sedai Ever by DANCING to defeat a Trolloc hoard. Just. Iconic.

Nynaeve's Aes Sedai test in the books

She completes the 100 useless weaves while being tortured by Aes Sedai who are mad at her for claiming the shawl before the test and also by her supposed friend who had the power to intervene but did not. After the test, the Aes Sedai claim that she failed because she did not maintain decorum. She is frustrated but accepts their decision with magnanimity, saying that protecting people is more important than decorum and that she will continue to channel whether they like it or not. She arrives at this point after a LOT of life experience and character development. This is NOT where she begins her journey, but rather where she arrives.

Nynaeve's Accepted test in the show

"The Arches" are some weird mashup of both tests in the books.

In her first experience, we see Nynaeve's parents being murdered by raiders while she watches from the basement. While compelling (and in many ways an improvement over the Aginor chase in the books), it still falls short. book!Nynaeve's parents died of illness iirc, and this would have been a more meaningful scenario for her character. As it is, especially when taken with the swordfighting, the show seems to be forming her into a warrior who happens to heal, instead of into a healer who can punch.

In her second experience, we see a similar story to that portrayed in the books. I didn't see that the changes made to this scenario undermined the book message at all. They do seem to be setting up crimsonthorn in place of blackthorn, which I find odd but probably inconsequential.

At this point, she has a conversation very similar to the one we see after her test for the shawl in the books. Which begs the question: do they think that she has already developed past petty and misdirected anger towards Moiraine? Is she really dedicated to becoming Aes Sedai? Does she have any motivation at all whatsoever? Because skipping lessons and telling your mentors that their institution is meaningless to you is not a great way to go about learning the things book!Nynaeve wanted to learn.

In her third experience, we see Nynaeve...run away from the Tower to live with Lan...in the Two Rivers... where everyone is happy... until trollocs kill them all. Others have gone in depth on how ludicrous the whole scenario is, especially the being abandoned to the arches by the Aes Sedai. Her portal reappears in this sequence as some sort of fluke, rather than from her absolute rock solid strength of mind. Again, we see the show shaping Nynaeve into a warrior instead of allowing her to be a passionate healer and I'm not ok with that.

[sadhorsegirl]

need it on the official record that i do love moiraine and lan's relationship sososo much!!!

i love the implicit understanding they have with each other, based partially in the fact that they are both heirs separated from a crown for very different reasons. moiraine and lan are both people who cannot go back to where they came from, whether they want to or not. so there is this shared sense of loneliness, and drift that they share, wrapped up in the idea that they probably aren't going to survive the last battle (or even the journey to it) and would rather sacrifice themselves than have anyone they care for or, in moiraine's case for some people deem more necessary to The Pattern (although to be fair to her, this often still means having a certain level of care for them she just um. wasn't raised to know how to show any healthy positive emotion i don't think) moving in companionable silence eternally Searching™

i've grown increasingly haunted by this exchange they have at the end of new spring:

like............"surrender after you are dead. yes." is the sentiment set up as one of the core values of their partnership starting from the very moment she decides to ask lan to be her warder. surely, this will end well for all parties and will NOT have any tragic implications!

it sets up this really harsh poetic symmetry (surprise) when they have their Big Fight™ in the great hunt. moiraine LITERALLY invokes how they first met with funny little jokes abt him throwing her in a pond to get his defenses down so she can jump scare him w an intense re-examination of their relationship. the whole fight is basically her forcing him to think on his toes so she can examine him at his most basic emotional level in order to try and expose the truth abt how he feels, going from playful to painful at the flip of a coin lol. and he's aware of it!!! him calling her out on it and her answering back w patented Aes Sedai Speak, in a relationship that should be free of such manipulation.....

the real master stroke here, though, is the fact that the chapter is from moiraine's pov. we get to see her own inner thoughts about it and see that beneath the devastating chess game she's playing she's just as heartbroken at having to play it. the argument is really a crystalization of what makes her such an interesting character for me -- she is leveraging absolutely brutal social dynamics in order to, from her perspective, HELP someone she cares for deeply.

essentially, moiraine is saying that in his love for nynaeve he's found something to live for beyond sacrifice and that means that their bond to each other must be terminated. he can create a new life, and bc she thinks she understands how everything will play out moiraine thinks she is just cutting down the time before he realizes he can and will ask for her to dissolve the bond anyway. he isn't wed to death anymore, leaving the heavy implication that moiraine still is.

which sets us up for something really interesting for them in s2 i think! while their relationship in the show seems to generally be under less strain than it is where we see them in the mainline series, there remains another crucial difference btw the books and the show -- moiraine has siuan!!!!! im rly excited to see how that comes into play in terms of any potential interpretation of this fight/the breakdown of lan and moiraine's relationship bc it makes her decision to push him away feel even more hypocritical and rooted in her tendency to be self-sacrificing to the point of self loathing.

tldr for anyone just trying to figure out what this might all mean for season two according to one singular poster on tumblr dot com: in the books moiraine feels very........time to burn all bridges so no one can chase after me on my suicide mission basically and i can't say im NOT excited to see if that's where she ends up in the show (to live is to suffer etc etc)

[stayoutofitnick]

I really really want to like the wheel of time show but

(negativity under a read more)

I am really frustrated by how the show is handling race and gender. I appreciate the increased and explicitly racial diversity. But the colorism of the most evil characters in the show having the darkest skin is only slightly better this season than last.

While the women are more complex, I feel like 30 years after the books, the women are actually weaker than in the books and it breaks my heart to see it. instead of powered by rage, Nynaeve the most powerful channeler is just…useless at channeling most of the time. And she doesn’t lead well. Basically what does she do. And changing it from angry to angry or afraid feels diminishing to me. Look at the scared girl. Especially since she’s almost never able to use her power. And choosing Lan over going through the arch also infuriated me. The person who is full of rage and power and dedication and can heal so well basically tags along and is in love and I hate it. I understand people mock the braid tugging and low cut dresses for good reason but at least she was a badass. Moiraine is literally depowered and sad most of the season. She isn’t leading, she isn’t planning, she isn’t powerful she’s mopey and weak. Lanfear is not clever and her scheme is basically try sleeping with him. Her power is only that she can come back from being stabbed thanks to the Dark One. We don’t even get to see her contrive a meet cute. (Also why does she wear black?) That she turned to the Dark One because of ambition and brilliance and science is turned to no she liked a guy and got rejected, when the books clearly acknowledged she was basically using that as an excuse.

why does the evil woman have to hate men after being a rape survivor???

also, the lack of drawl/southern or Texas accent for the society enslaving people. It’s such a good comment removed (also the light skinned dessert people…)

And while I support changes to make a coherent, tv, modern story, in addition to changes above there are several this is not my wheel of time and my beloveds changes/moments for me (the he would not fucking say that)

Min working with the dark side. Mat not comforting Egwene. everything with Perrins love life. I don’t like Faile or their romance but the whole dead wife in love with Egwene thing is annoying to me. Egwene killing. Egwene not being good at school. (She’s a gunner.) the way the collars work. That it’s a one to one bond that breaks if the sul’dam dies, that the distinction is weaker versus stronger not those who can learn versus the innate spark. The downfall of the Seanchan empire is not seeded. The three oaths aren’t named, and the one power is regularly used as a weapon and to kill, especially by Moiraine. And I overall feel the white tower, Aes sedai, and oaths while being more heavily featured are not explained so the Whitecloaks view of them as dangerous is more supported and the betrayals of paths hit less hard. Very curious how tv only people understand all of that.

also curious how tv only view the whitecloaks. I’m concerned Dain Bornhald may be combined with Galad and we don’t see the insidious appeal of what is at heart an evil group, or understand why they are evil and not just a few bad apples. ..

Also very curious how tv only people view the prophecies or understand the Dragon. Do they understand the fear of the work being broken?

anyway all of that makes me sad because the show is pretty and it’s trying and I do think adaptions should make changes and I was always going to be annoyed by some but these feel like they fundamentally don’t get the nuance of the world or the power of my favorite characters. (In contrast, changes that annoy me but don’t actually matter: ok fine Lanfear can wear black. Closing your eyes to channel.)

there are things I like! There are changes I like! I think combining characters makes a lot of sense. I honestly wish cadsuane were written out but if she won’t be introducing her a lot sooner as a concept is great. Having Nynaeve spend time as a novice makes sense. Alanna as a character and her development. More warders with personalities. Fewer Foresaken. Recognizing a hero of the horn as a friend. Combining some of the books journeys. More time with Elyas.

just. Feeling very frustrated because I want to be like there’s my blorbos and be happy.

[writer-sedai]

Why the Wondergirls might be back in the Tower at the beginning of season 3

I've seen a lot of spec assuming that the girls won't return to the White Tower at all next season (with plenty of very sound reasoning!) However, I can't quite convince myself that this is the route the show's going to take, so I wanted to take a closer look at the White Tower's role in book 3 leading into book 4, and how some of these elements can or can't be handled in a different way.

(Major spoilers for The Dragon Reborn and The Shadow Rising below!)

1. Missing character links

There are three characters originally introduced* at the White Tower who have not yet been seen on screen yet: Galad, Gawyn, and of course Elaida.

(*Rand meets both Gawyn and Elaida in Caemlyn but as neither interact with him again for a very long time, it doesn't really count for the moment.)

In the books, Galad, Gawyn, Elaida and Elayne all arrive at the Tower together; this is how Egwene and Nynaeve meet them. Additionally, Min being at the Tower is how she and Elayne meet.

Obviously, this impacts future relationships, most significantly Egwene's relationship with Gawyn (tbh, I think Elayne and Min could meet much later on after they've both fallen for Rand without it impacting their dynamic much).

But GAWYN - if he hasn't met Egwene yet and we haven't seen his relationship with Elayne, how are we supposed to understand the side he picks during the coup? Why should we care? His storyline would lose so much of its point - that he makes decisions that he thinks are best for Elayne/Egwene, but that actually put him in direct opposition to them.

2. Missing training

Less significantly, Galad being a Whitecloak next time he sees Elayne and Nynaeve near Salidar will have less effect on them - since Nynaeve wouldn't have met him at all yet. (Again I think Elayne could probably carry this on her own, but the difference doesn't hit as much if we never see their relationship before.)

Also important here is that the White Tower conflict will probably be a major plot point in season 3, and if the girls aren't at the Tower we wouldn't have any existing POV characters to introduce it to us (Verin and Alanna will be in the Two Rivers, Moiraine is banished, and neither Min nor Suian have had sufficient screen time so far). It's possible to introduce the conflict without the girls of course, especially if Siuan is elevated to a main character, but it might be harder to invest people in from the get go with only new characters and secondary characters holding it up.

It's frequently joked about how little time the Wondergirls spend at the Tower in the books - if they never go back there in the show, then this time would be even shorter (Elayne has only been there for a handful of weeks!). However, some of their knowledge gap could be filled in with training from Moiraine.

Obviously if they don't go back, then Elayne and Egwene won't be raised Accepted. This would mean that they spend the next 3 books pretending to be full sisters while barely being able to control their power - in the books the fact that this deception was successful was already a bit unbelievable and this would only make it moreso.

It would also mean that Egwene becomes Aes Sedai without ever becoming Accepted and then that she also raises Elayne straight to Aes Sedai without becoming Accepted, which stinks even more of favoritism.

And lastly, Egwene's Acceptance test is important - both to my Randgwene heart but also to foreshadow her future and show how tightly she and Rand are bound together. (I've seen spec that this scene could instead happen at Rhuidean, which is definitely possible if Egwene also goes through the silver rings with Aviendha and Moiraine).

I do think the show might run into issues from a visual medium perspective to repeat the Acceptance test the way Nynaeve undertook it, in which case it might make more sense to move the experience away from the tower.

3. Missing tools

This one is by far the easiest one to rectify, I think. Egwene is originally given the twisted ring by Verin at the White Tower, and it's how she and Elayne/Nynaeve meet in tel'aran'rhiod while separated so it will have to come into play eventually (along with a bigger introduction to angreal and ter'angreal).

I think @butterflydm was the first one I saw mention Turak's "room of curiosities" replacing the storeroom in Tear - in which case, it could also easily stand double for the Tower's store cache as well. The girls could easily find the ring in Falme (or be given it).

They could also be given the charge to hunt down the Black Ajah in Falme as well (this is where I'd love to see Ryma come back into play as a communication link to the Tower, potential teacher, etc), with Egwene only choosing not to participate in the hunt when Amys invites her to the Waste.

Problems with returning to the Tower

The biggest one here is time - I think there will probably be a time jump somewhere at the beginning of S3 since there was a jump between both TGH-TDR and TDR-TSR, but even with a jump of a month and quick travel via the ways it means sacrificing bonding/group time in Falme (Egwene and Elayne bonding with Aviendha, Egwene and Rand sorting out their relationship, Nynaeve and Lan being in the same place) in order to fit the Tower in.

Egwene could bond with Aviendha and break up with Rand while in the Waste , but I'll miss Aviendha constantly describing how beautiful Elayne is to Rand! (Although I've seen spec that Elayne and Rand won't be developed until later on - which would make sense - so that opportunity has probably already been lost, rip 😭)

The second major thing I can think of right now is getting Egwene to the Waste - if Rand, Mat, and Moiraine all leave from Falme it seems kinda silly for her to leave from the Tower to meet up with them there. (Though it could be explained as a ta'varen twist of chance! In the books, Rand, Mat, and Egwene all have very different reasons for going to the Waste.)

And finally - depending on the current state of instability in the Tower, it might not make sense for the girls to go back. We've already received several hints that Suian's grip is not as strong as she would like, and all three girls would have to be out of the Tower before the coup happens to avoid being swept up in it.

— In conclusion:

From a streamlining perspective it might make a lot of sense to skip returning to the White Tower, but I worry about how several important story beats and character arcs would be handled without the girls there to serve as an initial anchor.

[aceofthegreenajah]

wot reread status: made it to baerlon.

Everything past the first trollocs showing up until they were over the river was just so good. Really good. I didn’t want to stop reading. After things calmed down I’m not tearing through the book anymore, but I’m still having a good time.

I mostly really like being in Rand’s head in this part. He’s scared and scrambling and feeling alone and helpless. He’s scared about Tam, worried for Egwene. Sometimes he’s a bit of a brat - has stupid arguments and such - but it’s still understandable.

Egwene starts off by not believing them about why they’re leaving, and coming along and having a good time when the boys are terrified. And that Rand still handles very gracefully - he’s a little frustrated, but mostly just scared for her.

And then she starts her journey to become Aes Sedai, when we’ve had a lot of emphasis on how people see them as not much better than trollocs. That’s much harder for him to swallow, but he starts getting over that by the time they make it to baerlon.

So it takes him a few days - so what? He’s been told these horrible stories about Aes Sedai all his life, and Moiraine hasn’t exactly been all sunshine and roses. She has saved them - but very much for her own purposes.

Also do we think he actually lost that trolloc who came out of the window after him naturally, or was there channeling involved? I don’t have a physical book in front of me so I can’t go and check it now, but knowing how well trollocs in general smell and hear that sounds very lucky. I know the Bela thing is at the very least channeling, but do we know if that was his first time?

Rambling about some book/show differences below.

The book does linger a lot in how much people hate Aes Sedai - I didn’t count, but there have been at least four scenes I can think of where it’s been emphasized. And probably half a dozen more where it’s been mentioned, like when we’re told what whitecloaks are about and that tear hates everything to do with channeling.

It’s not that the show didn’t show it at all - my spouse caught it and he has 0 knowledge of the books. But, well, they showed it by a) one scene at the inn; b) one scene with Nynaeve who has a reason to hold a grudge; c) the ferryman mentioning it in a tense situation just before he dies; d) Rand opposing Moiraine.

(I know this is not an exhaustive list - for example, the attitude towards Aes Sedai is shown also by how Moiraine is greeted in Fal Dara, where they assume she’s just there to meddle. But these are in the first few episodes where it’s the most important to establish.)

So if you’re not a book reader who knows to pay attention, I do see how you’d think ‘this is just Rand being whiny’. Especially if you already love Moiraine, doubly if you’re the kind of watcher who does other stuff at the same time and might miss subtleties as a result.

It might have worked a bit better if there were adults, or just more people, raising worries about Moiraine in the show. There is the one scene with the parents, but it’s just them talking, not people trying to drive them out of the village like in the books. (Even if it was just a couple of people.) So it doesn’t seem as serious.

But then, unless you want to make one of the important characters - like Tam or someone - a lot more anti-Aes Sedai than in the books, you’d need a new speaking part for it. And more runtime, for a scene that ultimately leads nowhere. So in the end I think they did it pretty much as well as they could.

Random other differences: I really like that Mat didn’t do the stupid Pippin thing in the show, immediately talking about things they less than an hour ago were told to not even think about. The scene in the baths made me want to facepalm. I do like Mat in the show a lot more in general than book-1 Mat.

Whitecloaks are introduced as - well, as a gang in the books. While in the show Valda is immediately unsettling and terrifying. Might have more thoughts about that later, but for now they’ve barely been mentioned.

I didn’t remember Baerlon is currently full of miners from the mountains! So the mining town in the show might be inspired by that, unless it’s something that’s on the later Rand/Mat roadtrip that I’ve forgotten. Probably a combination.

[gabolange]

writer meme: rainbow, pink bow, swirling hearts

for the writing meme:

🌈: is there a fic that you worked *really fucking hard on* that no one would ever know? maybe a scene/theme you struggled with?

I think in many ways All the Means to Make Us One (TDBM, Explicit) is a story that was the culmination of a year of work and thinking and trying to really understand how to write good, in-character smut where the fact that only these characters could have this sex in this moment really came through. And so the story was work, but mostly it reflects a lot of the work that came before it, which was much less successful.

🎀: give yourself a compliment about your own writing

I am a really, really good character writer. I wrote move into the future (bring it all back), which is a Nynaeve character study, and I got a bunch of comments and notes about how it had book spoilers and married her character from the books and the show perfectly...and I have never read the books. I thought that was a really excellent compliment and showcases the thing I do best, which is get at the heart of every character I write.

💞: what's the most important part of a story for you? the plot, the characters, the worldbuilding, the technical stuff (grammar etc), the figurative language

The characters are the most important part. I write character studies almost exclusively--sometimes they have plot, sometimes they have porn, but the characters are the thing. But you can't do that well without strong technical skills and command of the language or a plot that makes sense if it has to, so. It all matters, but in service of the characters.

[livlepretre]

Okay so I'm in love with this series!!!!

It's funny bc I just finished it today and didn't know the 2nd season was out on the 1st lol I had some good timing there.

I'm very sad however that they had to recast Mat for whatever reason.

I'm not quite into Rand yet. Maybe will take a bit more time as I quite like everyone else.

I'm a bit confused as to one thing in the last episode: that one dude that showed up on bel tine and then to take the horn, said all 5 of them essentially are needed to take on the Dark one. Does that mean they are all the Dragon reborn? Or is it still just Rand?

Anyway, wheeeee! L of time hehe

YOU ARE SO IN LUCK!

(but!!! when you finish gobbling up season 2, and are eagerly awaiting season 3, remember that the books are PHENOMENALLY FUN and are waiting to be read or listened to! Rosamund Pike even narrates the first book!)

Hmmm I'm actually relieved Mat was recast 😅 The actor himself did a fine enough job in terms of acting, he just did the poorest job of the main cast of capturing the essence of the book character in my opinion. Like, he just doesn't seem like MAT to me at all. (There are so many character moments in the show that aren't in the books that would make me shout HA! SHE/HE WOULD!) Perhaps that might have changed in time, but as things stand, I'm actually looking forward to seeing if a different actor can get a truer grasp on the character I love so much. Like, I understand that lots of plot points have been changed for the show, which I am cool with, I just didn't recognize Mat Cauthon in season 1 practically at all. Probably only in the scenes where he was talking to children and you could see the kinder side of him.

AS FOR RAND. Wow. Let me tell you. Hang on. He's not my special favorite for nothing. (Really hard for me to decide whether he, or Elayne, who will be introduced in season 2, is my favorite character-- I flip back and forth constantly!)

But that did get me thinking-- the first book is mostly from Rand's POV, except for when they are all split up after Shadar Logoth and we get Perrin and Nynaeve telling the story as well, but then once they reunite it reverts back to solely Rand's POV again. Book 2 has a lot more POV changes in it, but is still Rand POV heavy. So, we simply get to know him really, really well right off the bat. In the ensemble-- especially with all of the stuff in the show trying to build mystery over who the Dragon Reborn is, and also, giving us lots of scenes and moments with characters who did not get POV time in the first book, perhaps he just doesn't have the same time-- ESPECIALLY because he is such an "interior" character-- so much of who he is is about what he is thinking and how he is feeling as opposed to what he is saying. We get a lot of moments in the show of Rand quietly looking out over the horizon, or watching his friends in concern, and that is very him.

And of course, he is on the path to the most gruesome and devastating hero's journey of all time. Being the Dragon Reborn in no way saves him from the horrors of being a male channeler, or from the horrors of the actions he will take. Part of why I love Rand so much as a character is that he goes through trauma and depression and PTSD and mental illness and physical disability with so much realism and there is just so much empathy in me for that journey.

So, to answer your question:

Rand is the only Dragon Reborn, but that doesn't mean that the others don't all play an integral role in facing the Dark One.

What's great about this is that this directly references something Min (the seer they meet in Fal Dara) tells Rand in the first book-- that all five of them are essential if they are to have any hope of winning the battle.

Moiraine herself contemplates early in the series that she was wrong to place so much importance on Rand alone; although he is the most important, in terms of winning the Last Battle, the others are also extremely important. This plays into how Rand is not the only one who is ta'veren. In the books, only Perrin and Mat are confirmed as also ta'veren, and the idea that maybe Egwene is too is played with but never confirmed (she's probably not, but there is enough gray area there to speculate). Making the female characters ta'veren as well is something that works well for the show, I think, and helps drive in this point that it is about the teamwork of these 5 young people (as well as the teamwork of many, many more).

(Interesting that you should ask if a soul can be split on reincarnation-- I remember this being a question that would come up back in Ye Olde Fandom Days 20 years ago. The answer is no! But the mechanics of reincarnation are probably going to get fleshed out further in season 2!)

[tialovestelevision]

Why The Show Is Better

I like the Wheel of Time show better than the books.

This isn’t because I dislike the books. I love them. Wheel of Time was a constant companion to me through some very hard times. Part of what got me through Hurricane Katrina was knowing I’d be able to pick up a copy of Knife of Dreams in a few months, and I read the entire series more than once. Given its length, that is commitment. That is love.

But Wheel of Time has... issues. The pacing is the most talked-about one - even before Crossroads of Twilight spent 704 pages on reactions shots, the progress of the plot had slowed to a subglacial pace. Jordan got far too invested in showing us every single detail of the admittedly amazing world he had built at the expense of the actual story that world existed to tell, and that hurts the books far more than I could describe.

But it’s not the worst thing about the books.

Jordan can’t write women. I say this in spite of some of the women in the books - Moiraine, Elayne, Min, Siuan, Nynaeve, and especially Egwene - being some of my favorite characters in literary history, and there is no contradiction there. When those characters are being people, they are wonderful and fun and engaging and just an absolute joy to read about. But when Jordan tries to write them as women, with the fact that they are women foremost in his mind, they immediately recede to being two-dimensional caricatures. Nynaeve becomes a braid-tugging annoyance elemental, Min a parody of the Not Like Other Girls trope, Elayne a boy-obsessed floozy. All of these things exist in contradiction to their portrayal when they are shown as people.

This feeds into a larger issue - Jordan can’t write interactions between genders. He’s already coming in from a very gender essentialist position, which... I’m trans. That’s a losing place to start with me. But it gets worse from there, with every single member of gender A thinking of every single member of gender B as an incomprehensible cipher whose behavior is beyond mere mortal understanding. The one pair of people who are an exception to this - Lan and Moiraine - are probably the most interesting different-sex pair to watch interact because their dynamic is defined by who they are as people instead of Man No Understand Woman Woman No Understand Man. I love Lan and Moiraine.

Throw in the twin facts that Jordan is just not great at writing romance generally and that the books treat queerness as something to grow out of, and every single romantic relationship in the books is plagued by these issues. In scenes dealing with romance, when characters should be at their most open, they are instead their least themselves. The best romance in the series, Nynaeve/Lan, works because it happens mostly offscreen and they manage to have chemistry despite the issues in the writing when they manage to spend time together on page.

Characters whose role in the series is defined by their romantic relationship to a more significant character - and these are almost all women - get it the worst. Faile, in particular, is just difficult to read about.

Contrast this with the show. The show is perhaps a bit too briskly paced, but it’s way closer to ideal pacing than the books are. Its women are just people. Its men are just people. They interact, love, hate, and have sex like people instead of a set of mutually indecipherable ciphers. Many of the best scenes are romantic, or are intimate in ways that don’t need romance. Moiraine and Siuan being all the way queer and in love makes their relationship hit so much harder than it does in the books. Lan and Nynaeve are an utter, absolute, complete joy to watch. Rand and Egwene are immense fun, and their going separate ways has so much more in terms of stakes than it did in the books.

That’s not to say the show doesn’t have problems. I’d love to have seen more of the Two Rivers (every genre show needs its own Short Treks). “Perrin has a wife oops she’s in a fridge now” was a hamfisted way to start his “hammer or axe” arc. While I get why they skipped certain stuff, I desperately wanted to see Whitebridge and Caemlyn, to see the Green Man and Aginor and Balthamel.

But the show is better than the books.