#and defended Michfest’s transphobia?

[hadsephone]

Ani defranco as Persephone is my 13th reason

[lizardsfromspace]

I don't like saying people's experiences are fake since anything could happen, but the things that very online group of trans women hold us Universal Trans Femme experiences just baffle me. Anything that's not just a generic thing just makes go "what the fuck, I don't relate to that at all, I've never heard of this"

For example they're always talking about how trans men take over trans spaces and push trans women out. Well, I was in a regular trans meet-up for five years, we had fifteen-thirty members each time, and in all that time we had three trans men. Three. And I know I'm not alone bc I've heard a lot more discussion about irl trans spaces being dominated by trans women than the reverse. Not denying that it's happened somewhere, but as a mass phenomenon it doesn't pass the smell test (and that's before we get into how they assume this is sinister - it's a trans space, other trans people can't, definitionally, take it over. This is just "women's spaces are being invaded!" TERF logic but with trans in front of it, since gender essentialism is cool when trans people do it apparently). Plus it's very likely they literally just mean Tumblr, bc these people don't seem the going-outside type

And a lot of their own lingo is meaningless. They'll say that All Trans Women understand the experience of "transfeminized debt". I've never heard that term before so I look it up and...it's from a tweet, and all citations of it online are from that tweet, and it's not even clear that it has a consistent meaning. No, not all trans women experience that, since no trans women outside of a online cult of like thirty people even know what that is

I think they know a lot of it is bullshit, too, bc a lot of what they cite as proof is just irrelevant. Every single post has a reminder of MichFest. The music festival run by cis feminists that banned trans women and that ended years ago. Trans men being allowed in (by cis people who were invalidating their gender) proves...something...? So much of it is just things done by Not Trans Men that they twist to be about trans men since, well, they twist everything to be about their weird vendetta against trans men

(near as I can tell, they justify holding trans men up as collaborators with their own erasure by telling everyone trans men like being misgendered, if it will make trans women mad which. What do you even *say* to something like that)

Anyway I straight up loathe these people now. Cultists who teach young people to be paranoid about fellow trans people, and who've decided the only way to fight transphobia is to embrace TERF gender essentialism (but with "trans" in front) and defend internet-famous trans women from ever facing the slightest criticism, who self-appoint themselves The Voice of All Trans Women Everywhere

[nabakovian]

i really wish that y'all took racism more seriously and actually did some research into the history of racist rhetoric in the US because acknowledging how dangerous and transphobic michfest was (a point i completely agree with, for the record) while minimizing the impact of racist jokes, including perpetuating welfare stereotypes against black people (which have contributed to, among countless other things, the mass sterilization of black women and overpolicing in black neighborhoods) is absolutely fucking insane. it shouldn't be difficult to understand that you can criticize alison bechdel's history of transphobia without undermining the severe consequences of racist rhetoric, even when it's framed as a "joke." "andrew hussie is racist" is not mutually exclusive of "alison bechdel is transphobic" and it's fucking weird to be defending a creator you don't even know like this.

[theroguefeminist]

sisterreisaid

So can it be said that real radical feminists are trans-inclusive?

I wouldn’t go that far. I would not say radical feminism has historically been inclusive of trans people, nor have I seen any major new movement of trans-inclusive radical feminists. Also, I would say that TERFism pretty much originally came from radical feminism. Some TERFs are actual radical feminists, and some radical feminist people and organizations have devoted themselves to transmisogynist conceptions of gender and transphobic crusades (Janice Raymond and Michfest are among the most infamous examples). Most people who identify as radical feminist are not trans-inclusive--at least not on the internet.  That being said, I would argue that radical feminism as an academic school is not very concerned with trans issues and is frequently discussed as just a school of feminism. I have met trans women who have adopted a sort of trans radical feminism, but this is the exception, not the rule, and I know literally zero cis radfems who have adopted a similar framework.

It’s more accurate to say that radical feminism was born out of second wave feminism before trans people and intersectionality had visibility so some of the frameworks are outdated and are difficult to reconcile with trans people, less than that it was originally designed in particular to oppress trans people. To be honest, I borrow some ideas from radical feminism myself. But I do reject certain elements of radical feminism due to transphobia, but also because radical feminism has particular theoretical problems and shortcomings. It’s also a pretty complicated movement that has greatly influenced feminism. In the context of feminist theory, it’s probably best understood as an older movement of feminism that we have moved past, but still has certain valuable contributions. The problem is a vocal group of women have drawn from radical feminist theories to defend their virulently transphobic ideology, and that has sadly become one of the most visible legacies of radical feminism outside academia.

What I meant when I said a lot of TERFs aren’t real radical feminists is that many of them have limited to no understanding of radical feminism and have just joined a vocal online fringe group of transmisogynists with feminist-sounding justifications for their transphobia. I would compare most TERFs with like...obnoxious white men who have devoted themselves to weaponizing philosophical ideas like logical fallacies to “prove” feminists and PoC are stupid, while not having much real familiarity with actual philosophy. Yet a lot of these women actually use the label “radical feminist” despite this lack of knowledge, like that blogger I replied to who was attacking someone for pointing out that radfems used to oppose butch/femme, when that’s just a historical fact.

In short: Radical feminism was created in a time when trans ppl were not very visible. It has not lent itself to trans inclusion because some of its ideas about gender were hard to reconcile with trans ppl, and instead of leaving those outdated ideas behind, some radfems just doubled down and decided that was the hill they were going to die on, and that spread online to influence like...tons of women who joined their hate mob without ever picking up a single book on radical feminism. Meaning a huge chunk of TERFs are not real radical feminists. That being said, few actual radical feminists exist anymore since the movement is old, so most ppl who feel the need to use that label are transphobic.

[hadsephone]

Im sorry but what is mich fest and the transphobia?

Don't be sorry, it's a very intra-community issue and a lot of people may not be aware of it

Basically Michfest stands for "michigan womyn's [sic] music festival" and it was a music fest that existed for awhile and made it a point to exclude trans women. It'd been around since the 1970s and in the 90s they made it a thing to exclude trans women and make it for "biological women-born-women" only". The festival stopped in 2015, but the impact of the festival and its transmisogyny still remain

A lot of trans women and trans people in general contribute it to the rise of TERFism and general transphobia within the queer/feminist community

And basically, Ani DiFranco defended it, saying that she "saw both sides of the argument" -- meaning she sympathized with TERFs who were "pro-trans women being excluded from the festival" bc she thought that ~biological women~ deserved a safe space

As if trans women don't also fucking need safe spaces, and as if trans women are somehow a threat to afab/cis women?!?!?!

Tbh it is so disappointing and gross considering so many people see Ani as a queer icon. yet she holds so many terrible views about trans women and transfemmes