#and how its about it fundamentally. about splinter to raph and raph to donnie and donnie to shelldon

[qoldenskies]

Canary Continuity Raph and Donnie just have a special place in my heart...nothing can beat them. My babies :']

i think cc b team are my favorite just because i love the more silly dynamic they settle into but mannnn nothing beats the tragedy of raph and donnie's relationship,, everything about them just hurts so bad. limitless things to say about those two. ESPECIALLY how raph was the only one that loved him til the very end in CL especially. i think of that so often

[yzafre]

What are some of your favorite character relationships/dynamics in TMNT, and why? Is there anything that you particularly like seeing explored with them in fan works (art, writing, comics, etc)?

Ooooh, great question!

Well, so far the shows I've watched are Rise, '12, and '03.

With '03, I think it was the first time I really got why the Leo-Raph dynamic was such a big deal in the fandom, in the way people talk about it. The City at War arc, man... not to mention Raph's unique perspective/understanding whenever Leo goes off the rails at different points... They don't understand each other while also fundamentally understanding each other. It's fascinating. Best Leader-Lancer relationship of the shows I've watched so far.

This is much less serious, but also in '03 the Mikey-Donnie relationship got me from very early on. That scene when they're setting up the lair, and Mikey comes to bother Donnie all "hey, hey, hear me ouuuuuut". And you just. You can just tell that he's done this for years, and that Donnie loves and hates it in equal measure. I was immediately charmed.

Also Leo and Usagi. I don't really care whether their friends or a ship, they're just fun. They genuinely just get each other, and enjoy each other's presence, and also hold a lot of the same values which is. Wonderful for Leo! I love watching characters who just obviously enjoy each others' presence.

As a more vague concept, I love how well '03 did at giving the turtles, like. Friends. Made them feel like they developed a real support network. Leo and Usagi, as mentioned. But also, like... Raph and that old lady (who I'm sorry he didn't interact with more). Donnie and the Professor. Mikey and the Justice Force! I like when they find people who actually click with a part of themselves their brothers can't, and I like the way it makes the world feel... bigger. More real.

In Rise I really enjoy the dynamics Mikey has with both Donnie and Leo (and am sad we never got episodes exploring what was going on with him and Raph!). Repo Mantis and You Got Served come immediately to mind. It's like - the Rise brother's are extremely Creatures of Chaos, but now Donnie and Leo have to also be Older Brothers, along with that. It's very fun.

Also! Splinter and April. I actually liked them a lot in '03, too - but the sense of camaraderie in Rise is a bit different. Their shenanigans in Shadow of Evil. Their entire episode together in Always Be Brownies! Like... Splinter is in many ways depicted as closer to April than to his sons, which is. Sad. But also fascinating! And they're genuinely fun to watch.

Now, I like fan-works for all of them, but I like seeing it most for '12, because, well. I'm on-record saying the writing of the show itself didn't do much for me on the character front. It was far more interested in its plot over it's character arcs/dynamics, which is okay, just...

They set up such! Interesting stuff!! And didn't do anything with it!!! '12 was constantly dropping dialogue lines or conflicts that modern cartoons have trained me to believe would get resolved later down the line. And then they don't. But if you start sort of. Jig-saw puzzling the bits they gave us...

Leo needs them to just listen to him, he's trying his best, but also internalizes everything way too much where sometimes things really just. Aren't problems he should be taking on himself. Raph genuinely needs everyone to be a bit more compassionate and patient with him when he's trying, and also has some bad habits and coping mechanisms. Donnie needs some fucking appreciation for carrying the team on the tech front, and also has. Well. The April thing. Mikey needs his brothers to listen to him and be a bit less condescending, and also needs to be more self-aware of the impact he has other people and learn to take up some responsibility.

And they all love each other. And they all struggle to understand each other. And the show didn't actually write any of it, leaving all these random hooks lying on the floor, mostly using it for jokes, and I love fan-works for properly exploring it.

This wasn't supposed to be a '12 rant. Where was I? Right, character relationships I enjoy. Genuinely, I find something to enjoy in every pair, but these are the ones that jumped to mind most immediately. It went longer than I planned, but character arcs/relationships are kind of my happy place in stories, so it was fun to talk about.

Thanks for asking!

[love-killed-the-superstar]

Since you’re doing a 03 rewatch. What’s your opinion on the main four characters

i love them!! They're my sons and I care about them so much.

Leo: Watching with a vague recollection of the series in its entirety is a lot of fun - for instance spotting early signs of Leo pinning his self worth to his role as leader/protector and how quickly he crumbles when that is thrown into chaos. I keep seeing little things jump out and thinking, "ooh, that's foreshadowing!" I value his character so much more than I did the last time I did a full watch. I used to find him annoying when I was younger but now I feel like I understand his character better, and I love him and want him to be happy. He's just such a dork!!! A clueless dork who never knows what's going on and says "grinditude" unironically while riding a scooter. This is our fearless leader everybody. I haven't made it to the battle nexus arc yet but I'm very excited to watch Leo have a romantic awakening in real time. 🙏🙏🏳️‍🌈

Raph: I forgot how FUNNY Raph is. His sense of humour is so dry and just roasting his brothers constantly and it really makes me laugh. I think I relate to Raph the most because I too have a short temper 😔😔 and my little sister manages to get under my skin the EXACT way that Mikey does to Raph so I understand the need to just whack him in the head 😭 I feel like he lays on the Mikey roasts a little thick though lol. I really love the twin energy he and Donnie give off in 2k3 as well, they're so fundamentally different but have a really natural dynamic that I love. To this day, I still don't understand how Raph immediately knows how to ride a motorcycle though!! One last thing: lone raph and cub was an amazing episode, easily one of my favourites from season 1. Really enjoyed him getting to be a mentor figure to a kid even brattier than him lmao.

Donnie: He's so gentle!!! Having just recently finished Rise, it's super jarring. Even when he shouts his voice is soft 😭 I'll admit it's really funny when the plot calls for an invention and he's immediately like "check out what I made earlier you guys!" Like Donnie. My guy. You have an insane amount of plot armour and it's hilarious to me. His dynamic with Splinter is really sweet - I love how Splinter praises his accomplishments and in the next breath is like Keep It Out Of My Fucking House. Also watching him try to do that stunt with the bo staff and just swinging around and falling was painful to watch but it made me laugh SO hard. Finally, the Kirby episode was really fun. I agree with Donnie, why can't the other guys learn to do basic things like flip a breaker switch or fix a sink? Someone teach all of them basic mechanic skills so Donnie isn't always having to pick up the slack 😭

Mikey: oh, my baby boy. I adore him. Mikey was my favourite turtle when I was younger and I remember him being my favourite the last time I rewatched. I'm in a place now where it physically pains me to choose a favourite turtle, it's like choosing between your kids 😭😭 but I do have a soft spot for Mikey because his natural talent coupled with no focus or drive is SO me when I was a teenager. I hope he doesn't ever develop gifted kid burnout because it will hit him like a train. I love how artsy and idealistic he is. It broke my heart when the other three were making fun of him in the turtle titan episode of s1. Like, why are yall bullying him for having a dream???? As I said before I haven't reached the battle nexus yet but I can't wait to see my angel take the crown. HE DESERVED TO WIN. END OF DISCUSSION. Lastly, he is Extremely Gender. I love that for him so much. From fully embracing drag to Donatello saying "gentlemen... and mikey"... 2k3 look me in the eye and tell me this wasn't for jokes I KNOW he's genderqueer!!! I know he is!!!!

Didn't meant for this to get so long but I just love them all so much!!! Besides the fact that I feel like they dunk on Mikey disproportionately, I adore their dynamic. They care for each other so much and it shows 😭😭

[freakadr0id]

Addendum to Donnie's Fight Style Analysis

I'VE BEEN INSPIRED. Okay, okay, know it's been over four months since my last analysis post, but life got really crazy and I had to deal with some major stuff and a huge loss of motivation afterward. However, after getting into LMK again, I finally felt motivated to properly come back to these and finish a few posts I've had in the works for ages. Admittedly, this is not one of them.

This is a minor continuation of my original Fight Style Analysis post for Donnie. This is something that occurred to me some time after completing it, but I figured I'd talk about it because I do think it is worth mentioning. Just as with the previous analyses, there is a bit of a TL;DR at the end because WHOO this ended up way longer than I thought it would.

[Donnie Fight Style Analysis]

~-~-~-~

A little bit ago, I decided to go through Rottmnt again, just for fun, but upon getting to the final couple of episodes and the movie there was something about Donnie's fight style that really started to bug me. I couldn't place it at first, but about a week ago I realized what it was.

Donnie does not appear to improve his fight style by the end of the show.

Let me explain:

As I stated in my original analysis, Rise of the TMNT is generally pretty good about demonstrating the growth of the characters' abilities over the course of the show (and movie). It uses its composition, animation, and choreography to increase the complexity of fight scenes, not only making them more exciting and entertaining but to show how the skills of the characters improve to allow for these more complex fights. Rise also shows the growth in characters' abilities this in a more explicit way by providing the audience with a specific focal point for comparing the eventual growth of each character's skills.

In "The Shadow of Evil" Splinter verbally states the deficiencies of each turtle's fighting abilities - Leo's is cockiness and arrogance, Raph's is impulsiveness, Mikey's is inexperience and ignoring fundamentals in favor of flourish, while Donnie's is his reliance on tech. They are deliberately telling us, the audience, what exactly to look for as we watch the fights and to compare how they fight at the start of the show versus the end.

For the most part, Rise seems to make good on that source of comparison. Leo is less cocky and arrogant in fights, Raph doesn't rush in as much, and Mikey is a bit more practical in his movements and attacks (although he still has his razzmatazz).

Donnie, however, doesn't seem to get the same treatment. Yes, he very clearly improves as a fighter, but his fundamental weakness remains unchanged and unaddressed. He still relies heavily on his tech by the end of the show, arguably even more after he gets his Ninpo (for the sake of clarity, yes, his mystic tech counts in this as well - it serves the same purpose). In the finale and in the movie, he's constantly using his mystic constructs in fights, with the show even portraying this as something cool and victorious.

THIS FRUSTRATED THE HELL OUT OF ME. If everyone else displays noticeable growth in overcoming their weaknesses in fights, how did they stumble so hard on Donnie's character? Why was Donnie the exception? I must have missed something.

Yeah. I did.

Donnie's fight style does improve over the course of the show, it just develops in a more subtle way.

The show claims, as stated by Splinter, that Donnie's greatest weakness in a fight is his reliance on tech ("Do not rely on your tech, funny one"), but that statement isn't quite right.

Splinter's words in this scene give a supposed indication as to the way Donnie's fighting style will improve by the end of the show. By stating that Donnie should not rely on his tech, the audience expects that, by the finale, Donnie won't use his tech as much and will become a much better fighter through traditional techniques. However, that doesn't happen, with Donnie still using his tech as a fundamental part of his fight style in both the final episode and the movie. This is why it appears that Donnie doesn't develop his fighting skill much throughout the show when this couldn't be further from the truth.

The phrasing used here is misleading. A better way to describe Donnie's weakness is that he uses his tech improperly in battle.

When stated in this way, is easier to see how Donnie improves his fighting by the end of Rise. It shifts the audience's expectations as to the trajectory of Donnie's growth as a fighter and provides a better point of comparison for how his fight style changes.

At the start of the show, Donnie uses his tech as a crutch, a fallback when he thinks traditional techniques won't work. There are several instances in season one and early season two where Donnie relied on his tech instead of utilizing traditional techniques (Yes, I see you "Many Unhappy Returns"). This can be a critical mistake as it changes up his attack pattern (ahem, Glass Cannon) and it leads to him losing the advantage in a fight. THIS is Donnie's biggest weakness when fighting - not the fact that he simply uses his tech in battle.

With this perspective, Donnie absolutely improves and grows, just as his brothers do. Instead of reducing his reliance on his tech, as the show's phrasing implies he should, he adjusts the way he uses his tech by applying it more effectively and strategically. He stops relying on it as a fallback and begins using his tech in ways that fit the situation and limits his vulnerability. In the last few episodes of the show, Donnie tends to keep his distance when he needs to use his tech and waits for a better opportunity to attack, instead of just using it because he can (except for his hammer, which makes sense since it's intended for melee combat). In the final fight with Shredder, Donnie keeps his distance from him after attempting an initial hit with his bo. Once realizing he can work off of Shredder's arrogance ("You think your puny mystic weapon can harm me?") that's when he uses his tech and lands a stronger blow. It's a more strategic and calculated use of his drill than what he would have done (or did) at even the start of season 2.

The same applies to the fight with Krang in/outside the Technodrome. Donnie uses his mystic construct to fire a barrage at the Krang from a distance so that he doesn't put himself at risk with the absence of his battleshell.

Donnie's tech is a deeply ingrained part of his character. It's his passion, his source of expression, and his legacy. Heck, he already wears a tech shell every day and in nearly every battle. To separate the tech from the turtle, especially in a fight, would be doing the character a huge disservice, and Rise does seem to recognize that. They even emphasize this in End Game when Splinter regrets dismissing their unique strengths which, in this case, would be Donnie's tech.

While perhaps poorly stated within the show itself, they clearly do not make an effort to reduce Donnie's usage of tech in battle (again, Insane in the Mama Train aside), instead demonstrating the growth of his fighting style through the more subtle applications of his tech.

~-~-~-~

[TL;DR: The show deliberately states the weaknesses each turtle has in battle in "The Shadow of Evil" and, while Leo, Raph, and Mikey all have notable improvement in overcoming those weaknesses, Donnie doesn't appear to. The show suggests that Donnie's weakness in battle is in his reliance on tech, making it seem that his fight style doesn't improve as much since he uses his tech from the start to the end of the show. However, Donnie does actually improve in his fighting style throughout the show as his growth as a fighter is actually dependent on how Donnie uses his tech, instead of reducing his reliance on it altogether.]

~-~

There's a strong chance I'm simply reiterating things other people have long since noticed, but this was something I felt could have, or should have, been addressed to some degree in my original analysis. I'm ashamed that I missed this in my initial observations because this feeds into a crucial part of Donnie's character, that being his confidence in his tech and the arrogance that comes with that. I feel like it is important to mention these sorts of changes in the way each character fights in order to fully understand what it is about the action and fight scenes in Rise that make it so special.

There are a few other things I do want to cover, but because of how spotty my motivation and schedule have been, I make no guarantees as to how long it will take. Sorry about that. I hope people find this interesting, at the very least, because I really do enjoy making these silly little things.

[sophfandoms53]

If you don't mind: what's your opinion on Leonardo from tmnt? :3

Absolutely love him.

Leo is actually my second favorite turtle (Mikey being the first, I think that’s been made clear lmao) regardless of the series, whether it’s 2003, 2012 or Rise, Leo has always been a well written and interesting character.

I’ve joked around in the past about how 2012 shoved Leo and his character arc in our faces, but in reality I thoroughly enjoyed Leo’s arc in 2012 and it’s the easiest one to decipher as it’s actually very well written.

I could get into a deeper discussion about how 2012 dealt with Mikey, Raph and Donnie’s arc when compared to Leo’s but that would make this response even longer and I might keep that for another time, however I will briefly summarize that Raph and Donnie’s arcs suffered severely in the main 4 seasons and were basically brushed aside in season 5, minus that one episode Donnie had in the Kavaxas arc, while Mikey’s feeling inadequate to his brothers arc swiftly concluded in different ways after Into Dimension X and The Croaking and the writers started doing different things with him that better suited his character, Meet Mondo Gecko and Bat in The Belfry being big examples. All of season 5 honestly can be summed up with “Mikey is a total boss” because he just owns every single episode in that season even if he isn’t the focus, When Worlds Collide is essentially meant to be a Raph focus episode but the biggest moments in that two parter are whenever Mikey is on screen.

This is where we circle back to Leo and his arc as Mikey even takes attention away from him in the final part of the Kavaxas arc, which is an arc centered around Leo officially coming to terms with his role as the new Sensei and father figure to his family. After the Kavaxas arc, Leo’s character is finished, there’s no where else for him to grow beside minor personality tweaks which was hinted at in the Usagi arc.

In the main four seasons Leo’s arc can be split into two parts, seasons 1-2 has him dealing with the sacrifices and burden that comes with being the leader while seasons 3-4 has him accept his role as the leader and his character becomes about having trust both with himself and with his team as in these two seasons Leo tends to go off alone on a mission instead of talking with his family and it’s something that is handled very well.

One of my favorite episodes in the series is Attack of The MegaShredder specifically because it puts Leo in a place of understanding that his brothers [Mikey in this case] will always be there for him when he needs them the most and this arc comes to nice closed in Broken Foot where he constantly tells Karai that they need his brothers if they want to continue doing what they’re doing.

This type of characterization for Leo happened in the 2003 series as well. Most notably after the battle in the season 3 finale with Shredder that leaves the entire team wounded and Leo with a massive scar on the back of his shell, Leo takes this loss extremely personally and violently to the point he loses his sense of self. He’s angry at himself for losing, for letting his brothers and his Sensei get hurt.

But what 2003 did was not have Leo realize he was angry with himself and made it appear to be he was angry with his brother’s for not getting the job done. Even yelling at them for treating their missions against the foot as a game. This even extends to how Leo trained in season 4, he did to the point he tired himself and his brother’s out because he felt what he and his brother’s knew wasn’t good enough.

In the episode Grudge Match it opens up with Leo aggressively training his brother’s on a rooftop and he only stops his training when Splinter calls him out about it saying they need to discuss his attitude and take on training soon until they notice Mikey has been slacking off training recently. So Leo offers to train Mikey for his upcoming Battle Nexus rematch as Mikey has become incredibly cocky over his win and Leo knowing his brother needs to be taken down a peg, gives us this amazing scene of dialogue between the two,

“I brought you up here to clear your mind, Mikey. Focus on what's important.”

“Like going home?”

“No, like pushing yourself beyond your limits to a place where there are no limits; to be so focused, so ready that nothing and no one will ever catch you off guard again.”

“Um, we still talkin' about me here?”

“In this life, we only have each other. If one of us goes down, we all go down, so focus.”

The subtext is obvious, after the fight with Shredder, this is clearly how Leo takes on other fights in season 4 and why he becomes so frustrated with his brother’s constant dismissal of it. Despite this piece of advice giving Mikey what he needed to win the match fairly, it still doesn’t change the fact this is a very dangerous way to think and Leo being the leader to think this way makes it more glaring on how far Leo has lost himself in this state of self hatred.

Another interesting thing to note is how whenever Donnie and Raph complain about Leo’s attitude, it’s Mikey who comes to his eldest brother’s defense and understands the burden Leo has his shoulders, and this wasn’t done by accident.

It is only after Leo harms Splinter during training does he come to realize how bad this violent attitude of his is affecting everyone around him. Leo is then sent off on a 2 month journey of self-reflection in Japan where Yoshi’s old masters helps him realize that Leo has become his own monster, or as the show does it, he has become his own Shredder.

Leo comes to the realization that he has stop blaming himself for what happened and move forward, he’s been holding onto the past for too long to the point he became a barrel of anger and self-destruction and he had to be the one to fix it. He had to destroy his own demons, himself. And this arc concludes very well.

Now in Rise it’s a little bit difficult to analyze the characters as there isn’t much development, not a bad thing at all, but Rise has gone out of its way to give each of the brother’s depth and it’s very interesting.

Because Rise doesn’t have Leo as the leader one can be mistaken that this Leo wouldn’t have the same struggles or insecurities as his other incarnations but this has proven to be false as Rise Leo still has the same insecurity of his brother’s not respecting him as part of the team or just seeing him as a screwup. Leo has shown he needs a reassurance he’s doing the right thing and that his brother’s look at him in a positive light.

A lot of people have a fundamental misunderstanding of Leo’s role as the leader and just look at it as that instead of realizing how much pressure and stress Leo puts on himself regardless because he wants to be the very best him that he can be.

Lmao this got incredibly long, apologies for ranting.

This was a very long convoluted way of me saying, I love Leo a lot and his character is very very 3-dimensional and needs more appreciation than just “he’s only the leader”.