#and no i’m not talking about being antizionist or pro palestine

[wandalives]

Love going on a random blog for fandom reasons and discovering they’re a raging antisemite <3

[spacelazarwolf]

I've seen people say that because you don't talk enough about the genocide in palestine and instead talk about the antisemitism in leftist pro-palestine spaces (even though you have talked about palestine before and don't support israel) that somehow makes you a zionist. It's like ??? That's not how that works. Honestly I'm sick of this performative activism where you must disavow anyone Jewish who dares to talk about antisemitism during this time. Then these people turn around and say that they don't hate Jews they just hate Israel

yeah it’s exhausting. i’ve got complicated feelings abt calling it a genocide — mostly bc of the way non palestinian gentiles are just parroting words without actually understanding why people are calling it a genocide, and also using it as an excuse for gratuitous holocaust inversion — but at the end of the day i think arguing a semantic issue isn’t going to help gazans who are dying right now. i don’t think it matters if we say it’s genocide or if we say it’s a precursor to genocide or if we say it’s a catastrophic loss of human life, it’s all just words. what matters right now is not if one single random disabled jew thousands of miles away uses the right word. what matters right now is that people are dying and that needs to stop. and apparently saying that means i’m an evil genocide denier who’s basically a nazi.

and like. it doesn’t matter how many times i explain my position in excruciating detail. it doesn’t matter how much nuance i give and how many personal feelings and insecurities i share, bc it has never been abt if i’m actually a zionist. they don’t care. in fact, it’s better for them if i don’t openly identify as a zionist, because that strengthens their use of zionist as a dogwhistle. if they only targeted jews who openly identified as zionists, the dogwhistle wouldn’t work.

and for the antisemitism stuff, i’m very unsurprised that’s why they’re targeting me. ppl have made it clear that they not only don’t care abt antisemitism but that antisemitism is necessary for their “activism” so they see me telling them not to be antisemitic as me telling them not to advocate for palestinians, and at this point i can’t help it if they’re idiots.

zionism and antisemitism aren’t a chicken and the egg situation. zionism is a direct response to antisemitism in the diaspora, and by actively participating in making it worse and mocking jews for being afraid of the antisemitism we’re facing, you’re doing political zionists’ work for them. i want to talk about this, about the rhetoric i’ve seen used in some jewish spaces and how antisemitism in antizionist movements just bolsters it, and what they can do to instead connect with these jewish institutions and leaders to address the very real concerns jews have and show them that israel is not the solution. but people don’t want to hear what they can do better. they want to hear that “zionists” and “zionist institutions” are all evil groups plotting world domination and weaponizing the holocaust. i might have more success doing this work in irl spaces but i’ve very much given up on doing it here.

[jewfrogs]

hi gabriel. i have a problem. i initially followed your blog a year or two ago because i was in the process of converting; haunting my local reform synagogue, becoming a known quantity, chilling with folks at holidays, et cetera. i stopped attending friday services regularly a little before oct 7 (restaurant job with conflicting hours), but since things started i haven’t gone back. i keep telling people it’s because i don’t want to have to talk about it but i don’t know how to square being an anti zionist convert with being surrounded by people who are firmly pro israel. just last week they invited an idf soldier to speak about how hard his job is!! and fuck i miss the friends i made there. i miss having ten grandmas. im sorry i know you’re not the Jewish Ambassador and you sure didn’t ask for receiving random emotionally loaded anons, but i dont know what to do. i know i can’t be a solitary jew but the ones i know are apparently cool with war crimes if their side does them. i didn’t think i had a soul but i guess i do and it’s fucking hurting bad right now fuck

hi honey. i’m sorry i can’t say much of substance beyond that i’m right there with you and it’s miserable and i wish there was an easy solution. i wish it wasn’t this way; i wish so many jewish spaces weren’t this way.

nothing can fully replace physical, in-person community in most cases, but it’s important to find ways to remind yourself that you may be solitary, but you are not alone.

you might look into the shabbat services at tzedek chicago (one of the only actively antizionist synagogues i know of) which are available virtually around the world.

depending on where you live, there might be a jewish presence at pro-palestine protests or events with organizations like JVP or INN or other local groups, which can be affirming and meaningful (and even if there isn’t an explicit presence, there’s a high likelihood that there’ll be other solitary jews).

reading historical and contemporary writings by antizionist jews is great (i recommend anti-zionism: analytical reflections, although i’m not sure if it’s anywhere online).

online spaces can be a blessing too—r/jewsofconscience has consistently solid conversations and community, and even just seeing other antizionist jews on here reminds me that i’m not alone and i’ve never been alone.

i wish you well and i hope you find as much peace as possible 🪬💙🧿

[starshipsys]

🛰️okay it is kind of concerning that a lot of pro-palestine quickly turns into antisemitism. Like, you guys have to be really vigilant and really pay attention because there’s a lot of people who have a lot to gain from shoehorning antisemitism into pro-palestine messaging. And I’m pretty sure a lot of people do not even understand what Zionism even means when they say they’re antizionist, and honestly if you aren’t super well researched about it then you really should just say you’re pro-palestine without talking about Zionism/antizionism. I mean it really stands to reason that if you don’t know what you’re talking about then you shouldn’t really talk about it, and if you’re not Jewish and aren’t close with any Jewish people and aren’t a historian, you probably don’t really know as much about Zionism and Israel as you think you do. And if you’re not close with any Palestinians then you probably don’t know as much about Palestine as you think you do.

There has been a huge uptick in antisemitism and it’s really scary. If you haven’t seen the uptick in antisemitism, then you are blind, and you are not listening to Jewish people. If you are wishing death upon zionists, that is antisemitic. Wishing death upon any specific group of people is targeted hatred. A lot of the people who say things like “hating deviant behavior will be co-opted to target all queer people” don’t seem to apply that logic to “hating zionists can easily be co-opted to hating all Jews” like. If you’re not constantly examining everything to check for antisemitism, you’re probably being complicit in it, not noticing it, or at worst, spreading antisemitic rhetoric. We say stuff like “it’s not enough to be not racist, you’ve gotta be antiracist” and that applies here, a lot. People are spreading antisemitism under the guise of being pro-Palestine. It is happening. People are trying to turn support for Palestine into hatred for Jews. You need to support Palestine more than you hate zionists, or Israel, or the IDF/IOF, and you need to be wary of anyone who is trying to get you to hate anyone. Hatred is ALWAYS the enemy. Ideas and rhetoric are more dangerous than any person. The pen is mightier than the sword.

To be clear, I do believe Palestine deserves to be free, and I do believe there is a genocide going on in Palestine against the Palestinians. It fits the definition of a genocide. But calling it a second Holocaust, comparing Israel to nazi germany, these things are antisemitic and dangerous. It’s Holocaust inversion. And if you don’t know what that is, you really, really, really need to look up the methods of antisemitism. I’m usually extremely conflict averse and normally I just reblog stuff without saying things, but this is really important. People need to research antisemitism so that they can be pro-Palestine without inadvertently enabling nazi rhetoric. Don’t spread nazi noise. You need to pay attention. I am afraid. I’m afraid for the Palestinians going through this horror, and I’m afraid for the Jews who are being targeted by bad faith actors that are disguising themselves as pro-Palestine activists. If someone is knowingly spreading antisemitism, they don’t care about Palestine. If someone is knowingly spreading antisemitism, they want Jews dead, and they’re not going to stop there. If someone is unknowingly spreading antisemitism, they’re giving Nazis a way in. Nazis want all of us dead or under total and complete control. Including the Palestinians that you’re trying to free! Do not spread nazi noise. The Nazis are still here, and they didn’t go away when ww2 ended. They went into hiding, and they’re trying to use this to make a comeback.

So please, double-check, triple-check, quadruple-check that post before reblogging, before spreading it to other platforms, before using its rhetoric in your arguments. Read up on antisemitic methods. Research the dogwhistles that nazis use. Pay attention to the imagery and symbolism. Follow the antisemitism tag. Make sure you’re following and listening to Jewish people on some platform. At the same time, make sure you’re following and uplifting the voices of Palestinians. And remember, this is not a simple issue, the history is not simple, and you probably don’t know as much as you think you do. I guarantee that unless you’re Israeli or Palestinian, you know next to nothing. So if the people you’re listening to aren’t the Palestinians themselves, and if the people you’re listening to aren’t Jewish people worried about the uptick in antisemitism, then the people that you’re listening to might have an ulterior motive for what they’re saying. Think critically and question everything. Please don’t let anyone trick you into promoting violence against Jewish people.

Free Palestine 🇵🇸

Please donate to Palestinian causes if you can and don’t forget your daily clicks. Keep boycotting and striking and protesting. If you’re American, please join the “uncommitted” voting protest to pressure biden to urge a ceasefire. But, if you’re going to spread messages about freeing Palestine, the Palestinian genocide, and especially antizionism, you need to research antisemitism so that you can catch it, and you need to proactively and very intently make sure your spaces are not antisemitic. And if you’re going to protest, watch out for nazi symbolism, and call it out when you see it.

[apollos-olives]

re: your mutual, they’re right and I 100% agree with them as another anti-Zionist Jew, and I’m actually really really glad they brought it up. I can attest to there being some weird complexes that come with Zionist Judaism. The terf comparison is very astute. It reminded me of a book I read recently by another anti-Zionist Jew. The author took Hillel’s famous saying “if I am not for myself, then who will be for me? if I am only for myself, what am I? if not now, then when?” and did this wonderful interpretation of the first bit. If I am not for myself, then Zionists will claim to be for me. Being an anti-Zionist Jew necessitates speaking up, because otherwise Zionists are going to try to “represent” you. Like your mutual said, they claim to have our best interests in mind just because we’re Jewish. That’s why “not in our name” is a big thing in Jewish pro-Palestine circles, as well as protesting the ADL and AIPAC (two groups that really want to speak for us).

I also agree with the oppression thing. There is a complex about that in Zionist Judaism and certainly Judaism as a whole. It is one of the hardest things to talk about, because there is no way to not sound like a terrible person who is invalidating everyone’s trauma. But I think a lot of Jews, myself included up until a few years ago, never really treated that trauma the way we should have. Again there’s no nice way to say this but it often feels like we’re not even trying to heal or emotionally process any of it. And I think there are a lot of people who exploit the existence of our trauma and past/current antisemitism to create excuses for Zionism.

I have also heard all of the fake-progressive talk, and I read an essay that mentioned it recently but I can’t remember what it was called! It was by Edward Said and there was a whole section about the co-opting of revolutionary language by Zionists to justify Israel’s existence as “decolonialism” or whatever.

Anyways I’ll stop yapping, I hope you and your mutual are both having a good day! and Ariha too!

i'm not jewish so i can't really speak on your community and your own perspective as an antizionist jew but this does really help me understand more about the struggle!! i never really thought of the different ways zionists claim to be standing for the safety of all jews and how that affects antizionist jews' own perspectives on their beliefs and culture. i can't say much but this is very interesting for me to read, so thank you for your input.

[jewish-vents]

i’m so, so tired. i’ve deleted almost all of my social media apps, barring tumblr. i am definitely a very political person, and have been invested in developed a deeper understanding of world history and geopolitics since i was ~12 (i’m 18 now). but i feel so drained. i’ve muted tags on here relating to palestine and the conflict in general, and i feel horrible about it bc i see people around me constantly posting about it, but i just can’t. i’ve given up. i ideologically leaned far more against the state of israel before oct 7th than i do now, and i’ve seen this amongst many of my jewish friends too. my online friends have always tended to be pro-palestine, but i never saw this much dehumanization coming from them until now. to see how hated jewish people are, to see how many people i loved thought oct 7th was justified resistance… it hurt beyond words… even my longtime irl best friend tried to explain the conflict (and was whining about me getting ben and jerry’s at a store) to me despite not knowing anything about i/p before this war. i hate being talked to like im an idiot. but if i vocalize that, im speaking over others.

i don’t like seeing images of dead children. i don’t like reading about rising death tolls. i don’t like being bombarded with brutal details about humans’ suffering. and that is all everyone online is ever talking about. and all i see people say is that i need to suck it up because there are people suffering way more than me right now, which obviously is true. but i don’t want people to think im a bad, ignorant person. and sometimes i start to believe i actually am. i was very actively posting about the war when it first started, but now as i have seen more and more how cruel people are towards jews i just don’t post much at all on anything besides tumblr. i worry my online friends think i don’t care, and especially that i somehow don’t care about palestinians, when i do, and i always have! but do i have to subject myself to such upsetting information everyday to care? why can i not be afforded a break? why aren’t jewish people allowed to mourn for the loss of life in israel and the hostages without being accused immediately of hating palestinians and wanting them dead? how come non-palestinian muslims are widely allowed to center themselves in this conversation (obviously, muslims are hurting too, though) and talk about their feelings but jews aren’t allowed to? why are jewish people not allowed to feel anything? why must we ignore one group’s suffering and insist that another’s is more important to acknowledge? why?

and i’m just scared, because i don’t know what to believe. maybe israel is somehow doing all these terrible things and im actually evil for doubting it? idk if that makes sense, but it’s how i feel. i’ve witness very disturbing behavior from both zionists and antizionists, and it’s tiring. i have seen members of the former camp saying “there are no innocents in gaza” and members of the latter saying “there are no innocents in israel”. it’s why i can’t really identify with either party, so i feel alone. by its simplest definition i am a zionist, but people have turned that word to mean a million different things that at times it just feels like its lost its meaning. and when i see someone say “zionists dni” on their acc its like… what do you even mean?

i think there are a lot of well-meaning people in the pro palestine crowd, and i don’t think that’s wishful thinking either. though obviously, there are a lot of truly vindictive people out there who have nothing but hatred in their hearts. but i now get anxious to see an account i follow post something pro-palestine. and i feel so horrible about it. i know many of these people have good intentions, but i automatically assume there is something more sinister going on, whether it’s someone i know personally or not posting about it. and i don’t want to! i want to believe most people are good! or at least decent! but i can’t.

i just wish i didn’t have to be bombarded with so much information whenever i log on to interact with fandom posts. but i worry that means i don’t care. but i really think i do… i can’t not care. but sometimes i feel like im not caring enough

.

[finalshaper]

I find that like. Another thing I should’ve added to my previous post that’s also just an appropriate statement overall here is.

I find that people on this platform and many others even when it comes to discussions about things that are absolutely loaded with nuance. People keep trying to find one coherent definitive answer to treat as gospel when that is objectively not possible.

Every one individual is a million billion trillion factors all at once. And sometimes people find one answer that is true to them and persecutes anyone who finds holes in that answer or how their own personal truth doesn’t line up with theirs. When that is dishonest and objectively wrong. And accusing people of things — especially bigotry — when they objectively did not express those beliefs is questionable especially when it’s in an effort to silence them or scare them into silence, or make them backpedal in order to appeal to the masses and what the masses want in fear of their reputation (hi, speaking from experience, that’s me).

You cannot, and I repeat CANNOT, generalize an entire group of people as “all bad” without it leading to a slippery slope* and it’s why some of the most horrible atrocities in history have happened and have continued to happen. It breeds this very snake eat snake tribalist attitude that permeates many communities and discussions — especially about real world issues — on the internet.

People love to talk about nuance but then fail to realize precisely what that nuance is. People talk about nuance but it’s started to feel like an empty buzzword because guess what, that nuance includes things that you may personally be uncomfortable with or disagree with! I.E, as per my last post, discussions about transphobia, and whether or not a is as bad as b, or whether or not c has privilege over D or not, when the concluding and objective fact over all of these internal arguments is that transphobia is objectively bad and an objective cruelty, and that regardless of these internal factors you experience transphobia and the person who thinks trans people should be killed en masse isn’t gonna treat you better/worse based on the type of trans person you are. They’re gonna want you dead regardless.

I also notice that Tumblr has an extremely strong Justice and punishment complex, and nothing exemplifies it more than callout culture and what grew to replace it — privately messaging people and spreading information that way. I.E, me being labelled a neonazi in the Destiny community and having that spread around because I’m anti-Zionist and pro-Palestine. And nobody bothers to question it or look for sources in fear of they, too, being labelled a bad guy or being accused of calling people liars or because overall they just don’t bother to question shit for some other mysterious reasons. Sure, there wasn’t a Google doc or a post reblogged around about me, but people certainly talked shit about something that is objectively false.

People on Tumblr jump to automatic persecution and don’t even bother to question what they’re saying or doing or spreading. Like I said in the beginning of my previous post — that tweet screenshot. Leftists in the modern day would rather do nothing wrong at all and have a spotless record than do at least one thing right.

* this is mostly in regards to things like generalizing men as inherently dangerous, generalizing transmascs as ‘all transmisogynists,’ antizionists as inherently antisemitic, etc etc. Ans there’s some nuance within the statement about generalizing groups as inherently evil in and of itself but that also proves my argument about a million factors all existing at once.

[returnofthejudai]

hi just wanna ask u, as a lebanese muslim, what defense do u have if any, for israel's invasion of palestine. i agree completely that Jewish ppl deserve a homeland just as any one else does but to invade an already existing and developed nation is cruel. i know ur not 100% pro-israel but i just want to hear ur side bc u don't seem to extremely support either israel/palestine. also, im antizionist but i fail to see how this makes me antisemitic? i have nothing against jewish ppl, just israel. ty

OK. I’m going to break this down a bit because there’s are many components to your ask and some of them are contradictory.

1. Agreeing that the Jewish people deserve a homeland is a form of Zionism. I’m frustrated by the term “anti-zionist” for a number of reasons, especially considering very few people who use the term seem to actually know what Zionism even is, or what it sounds like to most Jews. 

2. Many far right Jew haters use the term “Zionist” interchangeably with Jew and many anti-zionists who are predominantly concerned with the plight of the Palestinians end up buying into all sorts of antisemitic ideas because they’re sold as “anti-zionist.” This is incredibly dangerous to us as it allows antisemitism to be transmitted under a different label and far too few anti-zionists bother to challenge these ideas, allowing them to spread. This is dangerous for Jews and it makes it harder for us to take anti-zionists seriously when they say they aren’t antisemitic.

3. As far as Israel is concerned the circumstances are complicated and too many people try to simplify it by acting like either the Palestinians don’t exist as a people, which is wrong, or that the Jews were pure colonialist invaders which is equally wrong. This drives me nuts. So I’m going to have to break this down a bit. 

Most of the challenges I see to Zionism as practiced by Herzl and Ben Gurion are cherry picked and largely irrelevant to the cause’s necessity. Had there not been multiple waves of refugees, I probably wouldn’t support what they were doing. I also wouldn’t exist. Let me break this down a bit.

British Mandate Palestine’s Jewish Population DOUBLED between 1933 and 1939. The reason for this is twofold.

1. Nazi Germany came into existence, took over neighboring countries and began their steady process of destroying Jewish rights and safety. We all know where that led.

2. Britain, who was controlling Palestine at the time, kept immigration there open when most other countries, including the British mainland and the USA were closed. History has proven that they did, indeed, save their lives by fleeing there.

In 1939, the White Paper, in response to Palestinian protests and revolts, severely restricted Jewish immigration to British Mandate Palestine, left Jews with almost nowhere to run, right when WWII was beginning and the worst effects of Nazism were about to be felt. 

Now here’s my question. Would you bar Jews fleeing Nazism from entering the country? Knowing what we know now? Knowing that nowhere else was taking them in? 

Jewish immigration to Palestine slowed to a trickle during the Holocaust and Jews were literally trapped in Nazi occupied Europe and North Africa. 6 million died. This is historical fact.

After the Holocaust, the survivors who tried to go home faced pogroms, yet were barred from immigrating. They were forced to live in refugee camps. Again, no country made a significant effort to let them in. The USA wouldn’t until 1949 until AFTER Israel’s founding. My grandparents came to the USA because of the Refugee act of 1949. For survivors before 1949, it was Israel, pogroms or homelessness.

The next major wave of immigration to Israel were Jews in the Middle East and North Africa who were driven out of their own countries for being “Zionists” regardless of whether or not they actually were Zionists. These Jews actually form a majority of Israel’s current population. They were driven out and Israel took them in. What alternative did they have?

Finally Jews from the USSR and Ethiopia were facing brutal, systemic oppression and they came to Israel to live safely and freely among their own people, options they didn’t have elsewhere.

Now, here is my problem. Much of the rhetoric and tactics employed by anti-zionists don’t just demonize the Israeli government or state, but Israeli people, the majority of whom are Israeli because they were fleeing for their lives and safety. This is thrown in the garbage bin in favor of throwing out false equivalencies to the Boers or the British Empire. There is a level of hatred thrown at average Israeli Jewish citizens I don’t see thrown at the residents of any other country that is guilty of comparable crimes. I don’t recall seeing people damning Russian actors for being Russian the way I see Gal Gadot being damned for being Israeli. I personally live in the United States, a country built on slavery and genocide, and I don’t see instant hate the way Israeli Jews do. And, had circumstances been even slightly different, my grandparents would’ve moved to Israel instead of the USA after the Holocaust and they would’ve suddenly been treated as evil.

I don’t particularly care at this point about a one or two state solution, though I oppose the idea of annexation as being suggested by the Settler movement because it would result in genuine apartheid. What I do care about is fostering a reality where Jews and Palestinians can live side-by-side as neighbors either in neighboring countries or in the same countries and that will be impossible so long as demonization of Israeli Jews remains a major part of the pro-Palestine movement. How do you expect Jews and Palestinians to live as neighbors when they are taught to hate each other and are egged on by foreigners? 

Peace of any sort can’t happen until people actually want peace and the current environment is so grotesquely driven by hatred and demonization that I don’t see any solution as viable until we see major changes in how it’s discussed. But when Israeli voices, even moderate and liberal ones, are shut up, that is impossible. You can’t make peace with people you refuse to even talk to. This has to stop.