#and yeah the duffers aren’t the best writers.

[mileven11forever]

Hey! I disagree with you completely but I respect that you seem to be a kind and respectful Mileven. So I’m curious.

What would you say to the idea that if Mileven is endgame, based on the way the story has been written especially in S4 (with Will being in every Mileven shot, Will’s painting inspiring Mike to monologue to El, paralleling Byler to Rovickie and other ships, just the whole story of building out Will’s feelings for Mike over 4 seasons in what would be a slowburn rejection if you’re right), the Duffers have inherently crafted a homophobic and problematic story?

Most Bylers don’t just believe Byler endgame makes the most sense for the story, nor do we just believe it would be queerbaiting because of promotion outside the show. We believe the story itself is deeply problematic when viewed through a Mileven endgame lens.

The idea that this kid Will would go through all of this suffering and that they’d emphasize the bond between Mike and Will in this way… the idea that Will would say “I’m not gonna fall in love” in S3 because he doesn’t believe there’s love for gay kids like him… the idea of the painting veiled confession… the idea that the writers would have Byler literally end the season together side by side alongside other canon couples… only to have Mike reject Will in S5?

We believe that to be horribly homophobic writing, so to us it’s not simply a question of which ship we like more like other ship wars in history, but a real moral line in the sand. We believe it’s either Byler endgame, or the show falls apart, and the writers have explaining to do.

It’s not that hypothetical story of a gay kid falling in love with his straight best friend is homophobic, it’s the specific narrative choices that would be surrounding Mileven endgame in this context, each of them completely avoidabl, each of them specific decisions the writers made.

Additionally, Bylers believe Mileven endgame would A) make the show’s writing weaker and less meaningful, B) make the show make significantly less sense from a writing standpoint, and C) go against the main themes of the narrative.

Lastly, if Will were a girl, based on the way Mileven and Byler have both been written, there’s no way Milevens wouldn’t see the clear love triangle. The only reason it’s difficult for some to see it is because of heteronormativity and the idea that Mike is straight because he has a girlfriend. If you remove that, there aren’t any barriers to at least seeing the clear triangle.

Thoughts?

I honestly just disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with the story and the way it's being told. Will being in Mileven shots in season 4 is because it was from his POV in those moments. Will's painting didn't really inspire Mike's monologue, he just helped Mike find the courage to tell El how he really feels. And I don't really see the parallels people point out as being significant proof of anything. I do think Will's story will involve being rejected by Mike, while also being accepted by Mike as a friend. That's just what his story is, that's something a lot of queer people go through, there's nothing wrong with writing a character having to deal with and overcome that. I think it'll be an important part of Will's arc and character development. I don't see anything problematic or homophobic with any of that personally.

Yes, Will has suffered a lot unfortunately, but that's just his story, that's how life is for some people. He's unlucky and has just happened to be in these awful situations throughout his life, but that has nothing to do with Mike or his feelings. It's sad, but that's just how it is. Just like Will can't control how he feels about Mike, Mike can't control how he feels either, and that he loves El and just loves Will as a friend. It sucks that Will fell for his straight best friend, but that happens lots in real life too. And yeah, Will thinks he can't have love like everyone else because of his sexuality, and because of the time and place he lives in, which sucks, but also doesn't mean that he's automatically going to end up with his childhood crush. I think he should end up with someone eventually, but I just don't think it can be Mike. He needs to learn that he can have love and be loved, but just how he can't choose his sexuality, Mike can't either. They both can't change who they are, and that's ok.

I do think the painting will come up at some point and probably lead to Will's confession to Mike, but again, that's just Will finally sharing his feelings which has nothing to do with how Mike will respond. It'll be complicated, but Mike isn't going to just suddenly fall in love with Will when he finds out the truth about the painting.

And Mike and Will stand together at the end because they're friends. Just because the other pairs happen to be couples doesn't mean Byler is going to be endgame. That would be ridiculous in my opinion. I really don't understand when Bylers look so deep into little details like this and use that as evidence, it could literally mean nothing, or something other than Byler.

Once again, I don't think the writing choices the Duffers have made are homophobic, they just want to tell Will's story a certain way, and I don't see a problem with it.

I just don't agree. I think Mileven endgame is good writing, I think Byler endgame would make no sense. Mileven doesn't make the messages of the show any less meaningful in my opinion.

And yeah, I think that's probably true for some people. Heteronormativity is very prevalent and some people are definitely in denial about the obvious love triangle. I accept that there is a love triangle there, I just don't agree with a lot of people on how it will be resolved. Will likes Mike, El likes Mike, and Mike likes El. That's how I see it. I feel like the show has made this clear, and it's obvious which couple is actually happening in the canon story. Some Bylers just read a lot of meaning into things that I don't think was meant to be read like that.

If anyone has anything else to add, leave a comment or reblog this post.

[chirpsythismorning]

I think it is very probable that the Duffers won't stop the production or filming, and that their support for the strike will just remain in... words, rather than direct action. Realistically the Duffers are tied to Netflix, they literally are the producers of the biggest show (on Netflix) now, and they're already getting paid... a lot and the fact that they are tied to Netflix makes it VERY unlikely for them to stand up against Netflix. I just cannot imagine a scenario like that, lol. So yeah, it is controversial and sad, but if we are considering the situation from a realistic POV... I can see the duffers not exactly standing up against Netflix.

It’s possible!

I do wonder if they’re going to announce filming starting then? Because official Netflix/ST accounts usually make a post the day filming starts to let the fans know it has officially commenced.

Although it is a cause for celebration for fans, it’s… going to look really bad in the eyes of those supporting the strike, which is 98% of writers and basically everyone that isn’t the top 1% in the industry.

I know the Game of Thrones spin-off or whatever announced that they’re going to start filming despite the strike and they’re getting a lot of negative press from not just those in the industry but also fans who are scared that the quality of the show is gonna suffer.

It’s common knowledge that the shows that did continue production during the last strike dipped in quality bc they were not able to have rewrites while filming. Stuff like actors improvising and adding their own lines and directors or just anyone coming in to fill that role of the writers on strike is highly frowned upon. You’re essentially dubbed a snake who is taking the side of the corporations and saying fuck you to those that are trying to fight for decent pay.

It does make me wonder if they’re so quiet about filming potentially starting in May and maybe they won’t even officially announce it, because they don’t want to sour the reputation of the show by giving the impression they aren’t supporting the strike, but are instead directly going against it.

To be fair, there are certain individuals in the production that have literally no choice but to work bc of their contracts. Like I know Disney just announced that show runners and other people in that type of position are required to return to their productions for non-writing duties. And I know that applies to a lot of people in the production that aren’t writing. So to a lot of folks, even if you wanted to strike, you can’t bc it’s against your contract.

It’s just unfortunate that not only are they risking the quality of the show not being it’s best, they’re also risking the shows reputation. There are 100% going to be people boycotting the HOG and ST knowing that it had production going during the strike. And if it god forbid did end up not being very good at certain points, we’d never hear the end of it..

And the fact that it’s likely to be very byler heavy potentially…. That should be something people on here consider as opposed to just praying for filming to start bc we want bts asap.

Even if filming started tomorrow, there’s no guarantee we’re getting blurry bts anytime soon. Especially if they only have a few people on set not only bc of the strike and the fact that maybe a lot of people won’t be there out of solidarity, but also bc it’s probably going to be a skeleton crew working to avoid spoilers.

If we’re lucky, the strike would end sooner than later and we could see some bts floating around in the next 2-3 months, but I just don’t see that happening rn. A lot of experts are saying that Netflix in particular can afford to hold this out for months, bc they’ve got a full backlog for the next two years when it comes to releases on their platform.

How does ST fit into that, I’m not exactly sure. But if they’re not putting any pressure on Netflix, then we’ll know based on Netflix’s behavior about the situation. All it would take is the ST production to give them a lot of pressure to make an impact, and I agree that is the very reason that Netflix probably prepared for that scenario. It’s likely it’s written in the Duffer’s contracts that they have to continue in the scenario of a strike, so even if they wanted to support it, they’re stuck.

It sucks but yeah it’s very likely that whatever is filmed during the strike will put a bad taste in the critics and audiences mouths. Unfortunately it’s likely to be byler related soooo yeah that does suck for those of us that are already prepared for the homophobic backlash.

In a perfect world streamers would stop being greedy and just give the writers 3% like they’re asking. It’s literally nothing in the grand scheme of things. These corporations are making billions and they can’t give their writers 3%… like… no wonder they’re not dropping this until something changes bc it’s fucking pathetic.

A lot of these writers live in Los Angeles and are making like 70k a year, in a city where that is not at all a live-able wage bc of rent prices being crazy. Also they need representation which drops their salary to like 46k… These people are being paid nothing and then bc streamers don’t compensate for residuals like they used to when a tv episode re-aired on tv, all they get is the pay for making it and that’s it… that’s not sustainable and if they don’t stand up to this bs now, future generations of writers are going to be fucked. The prospects of AI coming in and taking all their jobs is also closing in. It’s a shitty situation.

I’m at a point now though where I’ve went from being excited about filming to start, to sort of dreading it, knowing that the writers are against it and that it’s going to make a lot of resentments for the production going forward. It’s not going to be pretty.

[my-hyperfixations]

Someone on here has probably already said this but I’m gonna repeat it:

I think one of the biggest pieces of evidence for Byler is how they addressed it in season 4 and the set up for season 5.

If Byler was unrequited, then Will would have confessed this season and Mike would’ve rejected him. But that didn’t happen. Will is still hiding his feelings from him and Mike doesn’t know the truth about the painting (More about the painting later).

Another big part is how they made Will’s feelings for Mike canon. The Duffers had no reason to do this if Byler is not meant to be endgame. You’re telling me they added this in just for queerbait? Yeah I don’t think so. Stranger Things is one of the most popular shows in the world, I don’t believe the Duffers would just make Will have feelings for Mike in hopes of bringing in a few more views.

It’s also HOW they chose to make Will’s feelings canon. They made Will IN LOVE with Mike. It’s not “oh he just has a crush” or “Mike was Will’s awakening” or “oh Will just finds him cute”, no. The Duffers have made Will Byers IN LOVE with Mike Wheeler. This is IMPORTANT. This isn’t some minor thing that’s gonna get played off, it is going to be a HUGE plot point next season.

Speaking of huge plot points next season: the painting. This is going to be the Chekhov’s gun. It was established back in the FIRST TEN MINUTES of EPISODE ONE of the VERY FIRST SEASON that Will doesn’t like lying to Mike. Even if it’s just small thing like a dice roll in a D&D game. Will lying about El “commissioning the painting” and him using her as a hidden confession is going to be play big role next season. Mike is practically GUARANTEED to bring the painting up to El at some point, meaning he WILL be finding out the truth. And this is going to shock him that Will has lied to him. This is most likely going to lead to either a fight or confession or maybe both. The Duffers would not spend an entire season (and maybe more than that) building up this plot point and the romantic tension just to throw it all away and say “pffttt of course Mike doesn’t like Will, he likes El!”

And I fully believe that Byler is requited. The writers would not throw in “Will has been acting weird, maybe there is someone he likes?” and then have MIKE being the one acting weird all season. They would not throw in the direct parallels of “You never say it.” / “I say it!” vs “Oh I didn’t say it.” / “You didn’t have to.” They would not put in the script that the moment was “shattered”. There is a reason Mikes thoughts are hidden from us this season: they are going to come out next season and reveal the truth that he’s in love with Will. His entire character in season 3/4 only really makes sense if you read his actions as a closeted queer kid trying to fit into societal expectations and repressing his true feelings for his best friend. This is the only lens through which his character can be fully understood and analyzed. Or at least the one I believe.

The Duffers have also shown us that Will and Mike need each other. Mike says that things will be easier if “[they’re] a team.” Mike outright tells Will that Hawkins “isn’t the same without [him].” And Will tells Mike in his speech that he will always need him, albeit indirectly and using El as a proxy. Mike also feels inferior in his relationship with El, using his metaphor of Superman and Louis Lane to show how he feels like she doesn’t truly need him in her life romantically. However, Will DOES need Mike. Will is someone that makes Mike feel important and equal: Mike is able to open up to Will more than ANY other character we see through the show and the two share MANY talks where Will is able to sympathize with him and is able to finish his sentences. They complete each other.

My other point I want to bring up is if Byler isn’t required. Someone else said this in a post but there simply wouldn’t be time for Will and Mike to mend their friendship if Will’s feelings aren’t requited. Imagine if Will came out to Mike and then confessed that he had feelings for him, and Mike was all “oh sorry but I don’t like you like that.” Their relationship would be very awkward and take a while to get back on good ground. Not to mention that if Byler is unrequited, and the Duffers made Will in love with Mike for queerbait, then they would have ruined a perfectly good friendship for NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. It would have been better to leave them as friends and never make Will’s feelings explicitly canon rather than Mike reject him in season 5. Their friendship was a perfectly good one and the Duffers would not ruin that by having Will develop feelings for Mike for it not to go anywhere.

Overall it would be absolutely shitty writing if the Duffers didn’t make Byler canon, thank you for coming to my Ted talk. Someone has probably said this before in a much clearer way that makes more sense, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

[emblazons]

Listen I like Duffers and I don't doubt that they are successful writers, but I have to be honest here that some of the writing choices they made were poor. Like I get the 'reason' behind them, to an extent, but if those overall writing choices resulted in poor takes and when pretty much more than half of your audience doesn't get the message? I think it kinda shows that the message was not delivered well.

Like people still thinking to this day that Will was being childish for wanting to play DND and that he should just grow up...? The message clearly wasn't delivered lmao. And I get that you can say the audience ''doesn't get it'', but isn't part of the writing making the audience get that, to portray your narrative so it tracks with the show. It's not always the audience's fault. Ofc the majority of the audience is not going to think Will is an important character when he receives the least screentime/focus each season and he's painfully sidelined in the narrative, this also is connected to LGBT characters and narratives on the show because they're given minimum care at best and that's also partly why people think Byler won't become canon. These are all connected and I just wish we can criticize them more because it ultimately put a hindrance on the narrative, ultimately. Yeah, they are still fixable to an extent and the writing in S5 can make up for it, but there is also the issue that these takes would not have been there in the first place if the buildup/narrative writing was different.

I mean I can agree with you to a point, but…I feel like I won’t be able to say “you did a bad job because the audience doesn’t understand��� or even “you could have done xyz better” until the story is finished, and it’s because they’ve literally told you up front that it isn’t done—and with this show, recontextualization is key.

I think the real problem isn’t that people don’t understand, or aren’t capable of understanding—it’s that they are under the impression that the seasons stand alone, and that the duffers aren’t leading to a specific point. When you look at stranger things as a series of independent seasons—seasons they made up as they went, just exploring the characters and finding a random monster, as most people believe the show is—it’s easy to misunderstand intent, believe a character has been sidelined, and that “they don’t know what they’re doing…” because it’s not interconnected.

I can't say I agree that they "should have done it better" because a lot of the audience didn't catch it either, because in truth a lot (and I do mean a LOT) of even this nebulous "GA" people talk about did—down to my 60 year old relatives, who saw clearly what was happening with mlvn v byler and didn't bat an eye at it, because it's actually not even remotely subtle...unless you insist on looking at things through a heteronormative or even homophobic lens. Not to mention (when it comes to the DnD point) lot of people don't agree that "you should take your nerdiest interests into adulthood" as a message is true in real life—which is why I'm not surprised they missed the point they're leading to in the show lmao.

Still, to your point about "the writing choices being poor," I don't agree—not yet, and especially not about why they 'sidelined' Will or the leadup to byler, given the build-up to byler is literally the same exact sort of build up they've done for "Henry/One/Vecna" being The Main Villain—something that there have been hints of across seasons, that came to a clear !!!! moment of question in S4, and will be finished in S5. People were smart enough to back-connect how the Demogorgon and MindFlayer could fit into that storyline (and even some of its foreshadowing) despite us not yet being done with the show...and no one bats an eye at it despite it being just as subtle as byler because it wasn't challenging their heteronormative or "everybody needs to grow up & out of their 'childish' interests" value system in any way.

In my opinion, Byler's writing being just as subtle as their other plots is a feature and asset, not a loss solely because people don't see it (especially given that they do—literally not one soul I've met whose seen Stranger Things isn't aware there's at least something happening in "The Byler Corner" even without a single moment spent in this fandom). The problem isn't the writing's subtlety, but rather that people don't want to acknowledge the upending of classic expectations for nerds winning over "adulting" as much as they don't want to see the clear build up of a queer relationship over the heterosexual one, which means they're going to try to interpret the events of the show through a value system entirely different than The Duffers...solely because the show is popular.

Essentially: Most of the "the audience is missing the point" comes from a value system difference, not a skill one on the part of The Duffers...which goes back to that whole "Stranger Things was made for a specific audience and expanded past that" thing I've talked about a million times over now. If you like your shows more blatant, I'm sure that would be irritating—but for someone like me, that's almost the entire appeal.

I can accept and fully agree with criticism that maybe The Duffers took a deep dive transition with S3 that was rather dramatic given the previous tone of the show. That's just a fact, and the tone change really did put people off of understanding what their primary themes were hard enough that S5 will require some really blatant and potentially heavy-handed "smack you over the head" moments to make its point. That's probably why they say they regret indulging fan service and maybe even giving "The Netflix Look" to their show, even—and why they say they're not doing that for the final season. That, to me, is a very valid criticism.

That said...I would rather have a chance to dig and think about my media here than have something that just tells me everything I need to know to get the point on first viewing, or that didn't require me revisiting it to understand the point it was trying to make. To me, that's boring, weak storytelling, even if it makes sense to "the majority" of the audience...and I'm almost positive the Duffers would view it the same way. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Thanks for the ask!

[thestobingirlie]

Why does the fandom think yellow and blue is about Will and Mike? It seems to me that yellow is more associated with El and mileven, for example because

The first time Mike met Eul, she was wearing a yellow T-shirt

El's favorite colors are yellow and purple.

I just don't understand

yeah, i’m not really present in the byler fandom, so this kinda confuses me too. to the best of my knowledge, it’s because mike and will wear yellow and blue? but, i mean, so do other characters. so. idk.

i know they got the saying from the russian code in s3, but i just don’t get what byler has to do with a russian code. they weren’t even part of that plotline. (i also think, like… the duffers aren’t that good writers lmao. i don’t think the duffers are writing as deeply as some people are reading into it)

and yeah, like, mike wears yellow on the plane to cali because it’s el’s favourite colour! i don’t think it’s because the duffers are referencing a line they wrote about a clock. maybe they are! but i don’t think so.

[two-sides-samecoin]

Hiiii. Just wanted you to know you are not alone in your rants about the ST fandom. Yes, I have preferences regarding what little actual canon romance exists in ST, but it is a nostalgia show about folks in Indiana who slowly find out they’re in a fucking war with an evil wizard clockmaker from another dimension, and they get through all the horrors and trauma because of the strength of found-family.

We’re getting closer to ST end times, and it’s like maybe people believe if they just vote in enough meaningless polls and smush their headcanon dolls’ faces together in the perfect way, they’ll magically see it onscreen in s5. The show creators aren’t going to turn 1980s Hawkins into clumps of 2022 crackships/polys just because Steddie won tumblr this year. But some people truly believe fanon and harassing everyone on social media will have an effect on the writing decisions. Maybe because back in s2 the Duffers actually did give in to Justice for Barb?

Anyway, sorry this got long. You’re not alone.

Hi! Im glad I’m not alone in my thoughts on this fandom cuz like ngl I feel like I’ve either been too negative or just alone in my opinions. So thanks for making me not feel alone about it 😊

And you worded what st is perfectly and I love it. Cuz that’s essentially what st is! And you absolutely worded it perfectly.

Yeah maybe the thing is is that st is coming to a close and thus people are scrambling to get their voices heard so that it can happen on screen. Despite the fact that some theories or reveals that some people want would have already been set up clearly in the last few seasons. Yeah you’re absolutely right like they aren’t going to change what happened because steddie won this year and they won’t change it simply because of fan service. Which ironically is something that the fandom itself complains about and about how they’re giving too much fan service but then they want things that have no build up in canon to actually happen. Like it makes no sense to me. And also something that I think a lot of people forget: these writers are bold writers!! What I mean by that is that sometimes they know some plot lines that they want to do that maybe the fandom wouldn’t care about or complain about , and yet they do it anyway. Look at season 4 stancy (I know a lot of people myself included didn’t like the way it was written) The writers wanted to explore going back to that dynamic despite feeling/possibly knowing what people would say about it. They wanted season 3 to be different despite what audiences were going to say and they still did it. This is enough to say that while they def do play into fan service a lot: the writers are also pretty bold in what they want to explore and some people on the internet expressing that they want a specific ship or dynamic to happen : is not gonna change their minds and fix some parts of the story.

Ohh I love that theory about the Barb thing and why people believe that they would give in because of what happened in the past. I think this is a very instance in a fandom where they also forget why this plot line did make sense on the first place though. Which is why it was so easy for the duffers to give into this demand from fans. First off, they’ve established in season 1 that Nancy and Barb were best friends. A big chunk of Nancy’s arc in season 1 is also finding Barb and being distraught over her disappearance. Secondly, nancy would feel the guilt and survivor’s guilt because Barb died at the party that Nancy had a fun time at. Nancy also briefly felt that something was wrong but then went back to having a fun time. Thirdly, the gov tried to just write it off as Barb went missing so Nancy has to deal with the fact that she can’t tell barb’s parents that Barb is dead. Fourthly, along with this she’s being forced by the gov to keep quiet. Fifth, Nancy is already established as getting stuff done and going after things such as the demogorgon in season 1 so it wouldn’t make sense for her character to just stay quiet about the whole thing. These are things that make sense in the narrative so it’s my theory that this is why the duffer bros caved in with the whole ‘justice for Barb’ because it wouldn’t make sense for Nancy to be magically okay with the death of someone that is her best friend. It wouldn’t make sense so they caved in with this demand from fandom.

However, rn the fandom is demanding stuff that won’t make sense in canon because there isn’t enough build up there at all. There wasn’t any build up to a lot of fans that scream about ships that should be canon. And also there’s a lot of stuff that just means nothing for the narrative as a whole unlike the whole Barb thing. With the Barb thing you have Nancy feeling some sort of closure about her best friend’s death, you have barb’s parents finally knowing that their daughter is dead, you have the gov facing some consequences for their actions considering that once the tape leaked the lab shut down for good, along with that you have the town knowing that something has been going on with that lab and that it isn’t safe, and you have the town who also understands what happened to Barb. That’s a lot of loose ends that they’ve tied up that was even left open in the first season. So there’s all of that going on that is very important for the narrative aspect meanwhile a lot of people’s demands for things to happen in season 5 add like nothing to the actual plot at all. Anyway sorry about that long rant: you had just brought up the perfect idea to talk about and I wanted to explore more about it.

Also thanks for ranting and letting me know that I’m not alone. Also sorry if this ended up being way more ranty on my part than you had wanted

[mayahawkse]

there was homophobia in the treatment of byler and eddie and it threw the show off course in the final episodes.

steddie and ronance are admittedly unlikely ships so we knew those weren't really going to happen but everything in the show has been setting up for byler since s1. they've been the main love story since the beginning and mike and el were meant to be a foil to byler. it was made clear in s4 vol 1 that el and mike barely even like each other let alone love each other.

they introduced an eddie a character who was explicitly queer coded - outcast, the black bandana, the subtle comments to steve. it was very clear he was being coded as gay.

the vol 2 happens and just fucking ruins everything. they kill off the gay coded character that fans had fallen in love with. they have mike give that big speech and suddenly start pretending he and el care about each other when they never have before. they backtracked on everything they were building too.

letting byler happen in s5 could potentially save the show but at the same time so much damage was already done to mike and will's characters this season i dont trust the writers to course correct. brining eddie back would undo the bury your gays trope but it still wouldn't take away from making fans watch a gay coded character die brutally in the finale.

the biggest flaws which ruined s4 were killing eddie and not letting byler happen and it's all because of the duffer's apparent hatred for not only gay characters but their lgbtq fanbase.

so weird i had the exact same complaints i just didn’t look at it from a shipping angle. like i’ve said before, i’m not a shipper i just don’t have it in me to dedicate time to non canon pairings that feel unlikely to come to fruition. do i think robin/nancy would be cute? totally. can i see the chemistry between steve and eddie? yup. is it very obviously painfully clear that will is in love with mike? duh. i just can’t find it in myself to be invested on the level that shippers are, so props to y’all as long as u aren’t a dick about shit.

but yeah no i fully agree the end speech with mike was bad, and a total insult to will considering mike in s2 said going up to will on the playground was the best decision he ever made. feels more like character assassination than anything. and obviously i’m not happy about eddie’s death, like of course. thanks for laying out your pov for me cause i agree on some level, i just don’t agree that it was entirely homophobia. a lot of metalhead culture is derivative of gay culture in the 70s/80s, and joseph played eddie with a natural flirtiness, so no matter what, eddie was going to be gay coded. he served to be a foil to steve, so they wouldn’t have to kill steve and would still (potentially) get the emotional payoff of someone close to dustin dying. because fans latched onto steve and dustin’s relationship, they thought they could replicate it in one season with dustin + eddie, but eddie’s entire “redemption” was trumped up. i don’t think it’s homophobia it’s just..bad writing.

i’m not gonna speak on byler bc i know there’s someone floating around my blog that thinks i’m an anti shipper monster for some reason, but you feel what you feel and if you’re disappointed by their treatment in s4 vol 2 then that’s just what it is. you’re in your right to be disappointed.

[sanguine-tenshi]

Stranger things S03

I, I don’t even know where to begin.

I want to know who got fired between S02 and S03, because there’s such an obvious downgrade in quality. Someone obviously got fired. Someone who was holding this shit together with like chewing gum, scotch tape and prayers.

Or! Or the Duffers went on like a lunch date with D&D and all they did was just circle jerk each other off over what good writers all four of them are. Because this is approaching the unmentionable GoT season levels of bad. It’s not quite there, not yet, but it sure is approaching it.

God this season was just 6 hours of me screaming the word ‘why’ at my screen. Yes 6 hours because I watched this shit on 1.5x speed. And it still dragged it’s ass on certain parts so thank fuck I did.

So here, another complaint dump under the cut, because I just cannot help myself.

Word count under the cut: 3,207 words

Nancy Wheeler and Jonathan Byers

Oh yeah I’m putting them together because this season they shared one coffee pickled braincell. And most of the season Nancy clings to it. Jonathan isn’t a character anymore, remember.

I’m just...why? Why do they make one dumb decision after another?

Okay, okay let’s go in order.

Why is Nancy escaping out the window? No seriously. They are both adults with jobs. They’ve been together for how long, a year? Everyone knows they are together. Everyone knows they are fucking at this point. It’s not like Joyce disapproves of their relationship. Or that she dislikes Nancy. Or that they are a secret. And they aren’t being all that quiet when they wake up either. Just...why?

Next is the journalist bros. And it’s so stupid, that whole subplot. Are you really telling me they aren’t writing about Starcourt? Really? That’s not front page news in a small local paper? You really telling me the locals aren’t slobbering over every single little scrap of info on Starcourt? Starcourt, the new giant mall that is irreversibly changing their town’s business and culture?

I get that you needed Nancy to have her strong independent wamen moment. But could you make it fucking realistic? Something along the lines of: “Look sweetheart, do you really think we haven’t been writing about Starcourt? People are tired of it. You go to a neighborhood BBQ and all the talk is about Starcourt. Stay at home moms get together, drink cheap wine and talk about Starcourt. The book club talks about Starcourt. You go to the bar for a beer and talk about Starcourt. You are balls deep in your wife and her dirty talk is about Starcourt. It’s too depressing at this point we need something new. Something fresh! But I understand, you are young, you don’t understand how these things work. So don’t you worry your pretty little head about it, alright? Alright!”

And you can have Nancy start talking about some angle they haven’t covered yet. Some independent research she did because of Joyce, with Joyce. Maybe insert a bit of the actual mystery into it. Like she looked it up and the owners are being very sussy. She looked at the plans and there are airducts that lead to nowhere (definitely not to a secret Russian base). Something that’s close to the truth and gets our attention. But she gets dismissed. Because she’s the coffee intern and no one cares about her ideas. 

Make the jurnobros sexist assholes, sure, but don’t make them stupid idiots on top of that. Make it interesting and engaging and relatable. This shit that you did? It’s boring. I’m bored. I don’t even hate them! Best they get is an eyeroll.

The rat subplot, God this shit made me miss season 1 Jonathan so much. My poor boy. 

Why is Jonathan reluctant? Like since when isn’t he just as ready to divebomb into the deep end as Nancy? Grab the monster by the balls and shake till it chokes? That is what brought the two of them together in the first place. I get that he doesn’t want to lose his job but that’s all solved by him saying they shouldn’t do it on company time. What do these jurnobros care what two interns get up to after their shift?

And also are you seriously telling me Nancy and Jonathan the demogorgon hunters aren’t suspicious of a rat rattling it’s cage that violently. I’m not saying they have to immediately connect it to the Upside Down, but are you really telling me the two of them just went:

Also why didn’t they take the rat with them right away? I mean I know why, I’ll come back to rat goo at the end don’t you worry. But they wouldn’t just leave it there. It’s evidence! They would take it! Or are you really telling me the old woman didn’t want to give them the clearly fucked rat? Did she develop some sort of emotional connection to it?

Also why is Nancy uninterested in what Jonathan has to say about the rat? She’s like a dog with a bone. She’d be all over that shit.

Why did they get fired? Like their boss is flayed at that point and later on at the hospital its kinda implied that the Mind Flayer is gunning for them specifically. So why fire them? Why not just flay them with everyone else?

Their fight in the car is one of the best scenes in the show. I still wish it was more...violent, I guess, not in like a physical way. Just Jonathan should be a lot more angry at her. He did lose his job because of her, it’s kinda a big deal for his family and Nancy doesn’t understand, can’t relate, isn’t even apologetic. Like the words he says are all right, there’s just not enough emotion behind them. Season 1 Jonathan would have done it right.

And later on he doesn’t even hold her accountable. Like yeah you were right but there were better ways to do this shit. We could have come up with a better plan if you just took a moment to breathe. We didn’t have to take unneeded risks, risks that are worse for me than for you. 

#giveJonathanHisBallsBack

The whole hospital thing is absolutely atrocious, the second one. It’s such a sudden and weird tonal shift for the show. Why are we in some bizarre Walking Dead knockoff reality suddenly? And there is just so much fucking standing around and staring. Fucking do something you fucking lemons! The two jurnobros melt and Jonathan and Nancy just sort of, fucking slow walk after the goo. Why the hell aren’t you hitting that Elden Ring skeletal slime shit with something! Just start fucking grabbing random ass chemicals and start pouring! Fucking Nancy at least douse it with the fire extinguisher! Or at least fucking take this window of fucking inactivity from murder goop to RUN AWAY! (I’ll come back to the goop monsters.)

And later on at the fucking cabin. Same shit. Stop fucking lollygagging and do something. Billy really out here doing his best to warn them that he knows where they are while being mind-controlled and having no clue what is happening and none of these simpletons catch it, not until its too late. Billy really breaking his back trying to save these, these KRETENI, and no one notices. Billy deserved better. 

At least Jonathan finally wrestled the braincell back from Nancy, he was the only one who did something when shit started moving in El’s leg. My boy had a personality in only one scene this season.

.

The Scoops Troop

Ugh, alright. So what is with the tone of their whole plotline. It’s some sort of spy comedy. Since when is Stranger Things a spy comedy? Did I miss an episode? Maybe a whole fucking season?

Okay, let’s talk about the trope. The used be asshole popular guy has a change of heart and now can’t get any pussy trope. Why is it a thing? Why is it a thing in Stranger Things? Why did the Duffers feel the need to make it a point in the show that Steve doesn’t get any pussy anymore? I am baffled. Teen girls WILL fuck a good looking guy even if his social standing isn’t good anymore. They are high school students, their standards aren’t fucking high. Completely unnecessary subplot. Moving on.

Why is Robin the one solving everything? She just “joined” the gang, why does she have to solve every problem/mystery they have? Look I know Steve isn’t the brightest bulb, fine, but why is Dustin suddenly dumb and useless? Really guys. Can we have the guys actually getting stuff done? Just like all of the main gang guys. Please. Why are they still characters? Why keep them around if they serve no purpose other than comic relief? 

Can we stop tearing old characters down in order to boost new ones. It cheap and hollow and we are over it.

Why are we involving another child in this? Steve and Dustin’s danger senses are probably fucked at this point, but Robin is a normal teen. She should have standards, she should know better, but instead its her fucking idea to involve a fucking child. And sure they don’t know the extent of the bullshit the Russians are doing, but for fucks sake generally people take shit seriously when guns get involved.

Also yes, commies are incompetent and like to cut corners but they aren’t this fucking incompetent. If you are going to make them get into a secret base could you make it harder and more complex than a fucking escape room? 

Why aren’t they calling Hopper? This isn’t Upside Down related but the local chief of police, who you are monster hunter buddies with, would probably want to know about secret Russian shenanigans in his town. And then we could have them panicking about not being able to reach Hopper. And starting to suspect the Russians already have Hopper because of vague thing 3 Flo said about why Hopper is missing.

I do like Steve/Robin moments. Even if it is kinda obvious she was supposed to have a crush on Steve at first instead of Tammy. It’s fine, it deepens both their characters. But it is obvious that the first draft was to have them get together.

.

Billy Hargrove

Billy, oh Billy. I’m so sorry. You deserved better than this. 

Ah yes, Billy Hargrove. The irredeemable racist asshole of the show, who just so happens to spend most of his screen time this season either crying or just about to cry and the rest somehow saving the main gang (or trying to). Truly a horrid character undeserving of your pity and love. Absolutely. Yep. No character depth to be found here what so ever. None. Mhm.

Ugh let’s get this show on the road, I’ll stop picking on antis. 

So I have no idea why the Mind Flayer kept Billy around. Other than him being a name and face character that is. Plot armor do be thiccc for everyone this season. And emotional damage. Can’t forget emotional damage. Look I love Billy, but there was no actual reason for the Mind Flayer to keep him around. There was nothing special about him. You know what could have fixed this issue? A Billy has superpowers reveal. That would have made sense. Otherwise why keep him. Or why keep only him. Having a few more zombie drones could have helped as well, especially in the final fight. But the Mind Flyer is a useless goober. (More on that later.)

Also how in the name of Cthulhu is Billy the one with most development when he spends almost the whole season as a meat puppet? This shit is unreal.

At least we know why he had to die this season.

Look I’ve seen a lot of speculation and joke posts on here about why he had to die. But the truth is kinda fucking obvious. The Duffers wouldn’t know how to deal with him. We already know they can’t write trauma and character development. Or hell at this point I’m not sure they understand human emotions fully. 

If Billy had survived they would have had to deal with all this shit. The survivors guilt. The second hand murder and kidnapping. The mind control. The brief flashes of Billy’s backstory. Billy’s fucking backstory. Just the general trauma.

They would have had to actually put some effort into Billy as a character instead of just Dacre bullying his way to a personality for Billy.

But nah, much easier to give us breadcrumbs and then kill the character off.

Because yes that is what the fandom wanted. Billy dead and the final death match between knockoff Terminator and depressed cop. Oh there was a window. Billy’s death was certainly slow enough for them to kill the Mind Flyer before it gave the death blow.

But nah. Nah.

Rest in peace, you beautiful man. You deserved so much better than this. 

You all fucking did.

.

Miscellaneous 

I want to know how much Coca Cola paid for that whole weird ass product placement scene. Lucas is literally moaning into his can. How much did they have to spit out for that awkward, out of place cluster fuck? I genuinely need answers.

What is up with Russian Terminator? Why is there a Russian Terminator in the first place? What show am I watching? He’s so out of place. Which one of the Duffers is jerkin it to the terminator so much that we needed a Russian Terminator in the show? All the Russians are these frumpy looking losers and then there’s the Terminator. He was so unnecessary. Just why? I was half expecting an android reveal at the end. What the hell? 

Alexei’s death scene, that’s not how guns work. That’s not how silencers work. Okay guys. We live 40 years into the future and we don’t have silencers that are anywhere near that good. Can we please not anymore. Guns are LOUD. Do you know what isn’t loud. A fucking knife. And if you are going to go that closely to someone to kill them could you at the very fucking least not use a LOUD RANGED WEAPON! PLEASE!

Fun house scene. Hopper, why not shoot Russian Terminator in the head? He stares at him for long enough to realize there’s no blood. And this dude has been a pain in their ass the whole season. He should have fucking made sure the guy was dead.

The scene where they acquire Alexei, again the gun is a ranged weapon, there is absolutely no reason to shove it against someone’s head to make your point. In fact this scene is a lovely demonstration on why you don’t pull that shit on people. Hopper is a fucking cop he knows better. Also why and how does Joyce fuck up her throw THAT badly?

Can we talk about all the tonal and trope shifts this season? The scoops troop is in their own world of spy comedy. Nancy and Jonathan are in a NCIS/Bones knock-off, they even have one of those absolutely atrocious evidence-->flashback scenes, their plotline then abruptly switches into zombie horror and then into monster horror. Joyce and Hopper are in some sort of buddy-cop romcom drama with Russian Terminator cameos. And then it all somehow switches to monster horror/thriller with pre-apocalypse undertones. Can we keep this shit at least a little bit consistent? Like at all. What in the name of the holly Roman Empire were they thinking with this shit?

Also why do we have the same stupid shit with Joyce every season. The woman has been right about weird ass shit twice already, why do people keep on insisting on not believing her? At this point everyone should just go “Joyce noticed something so we are looking into it.” End of discussion.

Look when the conspiracy guy got Nancy and Jonathan together it was funny, also very creepy, weird and inappropriate, BUT FUNNY. Should have just left it at that one time. What is he? The hand of the audience now? Let characters get together in a normal way, not this shit!

I’m not even gonna talk about the singing scene. Nope! Skipped right through that crige!

Why do they reveal everything right away? No seriously. Pretty much from the start we know how the Mind Flayer looks and what it’s doing. Why was that decision made? Do you know what keeps people glued to their screens that fist watch? Fucking curiosity! So why do we know about everything AS it’s happening? Fuck only knows!

.

The Mind Flayer 

I’ve already had a meltdown post over this so I’ll TRY to keep this concise. 

God I cannot take this goofy idiot seriously what so ever.

Like look at this goofy goober! Look at him fucking TROTTING after the car like it’s a fucking pet the kids are taking out for walkies. 

God I feel bad for the team of people that had to work day and night to bring this goofy fuck to life. So much time wasted.

How am I supposed to take this motherfucker seriously when it always takes it’s sweet time killing the main characters?

There are so many fucking opportunities for it to kill off the main cast and it just lets them get away every time. 

Okay let’s talk about the goop.

Why was the goop included? It throws the power balance off completely. 

There is nothing the characters can do to defend themselves against it. The only reason they do is because plot armor is fucking visible this season.

Look. It’s established that the goop can infect anyone, a rat weight of it is enough to infect a grown human. It’s also established that it can ooze through grates. So why is the Mind Flayer bothering with Billy kidnapping and princess carrying victims to it? Why not just send rats to every person in Hawkins and making them explode? 

Like when the cabin fight happens. The goopy fuck could have just put a giant hole in the celling and then oozed inside and infected everyone. Why not?

Because this fucker is so fucking stupid that’s why. And that kills any and all intimidation/scare factor this thing had. Like it’s clearly smart enough to plan and hold a conversation but not smart enough to take the easiest route. 

Why?

Also why were the demogorgons just dismissed. Like the demogorgons were a knock off xenomorph species. They have to be hatched inside a person. They have a slimy eel looking baby stage and just get progressively worse as they age. And they had some level of a hive mind with a queen-like entity.

The demogorgons were good. Nice. Simple. Defined. 

I just do not understand why they were replaced with whatever the hell this season is doing. It’s just such a shift in powers. Where did the goop powers come from? How do they relate to the demogorgons?

Just, for the hundredth time, why?

Oh and I still have no idea why everyone was guzzling cleaning products and fertilizer.

.

That’s it. I’m done. I refuse to watch the 4th season. I have no hope for it.

If I do decide to write a fic in the future I’ll do wiki research on the Upside Down/Mind Flayer(/Vecna?) thing. And even then I’ll probably have to cut off most of the shit. I think I made my case in this post for why.

After this shit season I think I might just micro analize Billy, scene by scene. Like as a treat. For myself...and Dacre. Because he was legit the only one who cared enough about the character to give him a, ya know, a fucking personality. We both deserve it after this cluster fuck. If he said he had to fight for every single scrap of emotion for Billy I’d believe him. I don’t want his hard work to go to waste.

Congrats you somehow made it to the end. Have fantastic day, I’m gonna go get plastered.

[duarose]

The thing that’s been on my mind the most is that I am genuinely unsure if Will is going to have a requited love interest.

You would think, if there was going to be one, the character would have been at least hinted at this season. Vickie, for example, was established and given an obvious setup (in relation to Robin) leading into s5. Sure, she didn’t have much of a role in s4, but I’m pretty certain we’ll be seeing more of her.

Will, however? He could have easily had someone in Lenora. Maybe it’d be tricky to have work plot-wise, but it wouldn’t be impossible. His love interest could have been set up similar to Suzie, where he’d have some unique skill that they’d need back in Hawkins, and Will would call upon him. Idk, the possibilities are there!

Obviously, that didn’t happen. So, what? Just because Vickie was brought in this season, doesn’t mean that Wills endgame love interest needs to be introduced right away too. Maybe a new character shows up in s5? Honestly, I don’t see how they would have the time for it. Not only because the cast is bloated, but also because of everything going on. Considering Will and the and all the other kids most likely won’t be attending school, I just don’t see it happening. Even with a time skip, the upside down is still taking over. People will be fighting for their lives! I doubt they’ll be concerned about reopening the schools.

So, maybe Will isn’t given a new love interest. Maybe the show ends and they shoehorn in a random guy in the epilogue. But wouldn’t that be...cruel? The only canonically mlm character, not given a properly fleshed out love story. Who is, instead, left hopelessly pining for his best friend. Yeah, it’s a possibility, but I’m hoping the writers aren’t that heartless.

Which leaves the last option, Mike. His best friend, who he has been, and probably always will be, in love with. Will barely talked to the boy for 8 months, and if anything the distance only intensified his feelings! There are a lot of ways the writers could go about developing their relationship. Mikes queer-coding is still there. It’s possible.

I think all Will stans can agree that, no matter what, whether it’s Mike or someone else, Will deserves love. Not something last minute, but something that is built up, and given time, and treated just like all the other romance storylines in the show. The question is whether or not the duffers will deliver 🤷‍♂️

[0aurelion-sol0]

Yo~

What's your opinion on the Will Byers DID theory? If you like it, which version do you like better? Both interpretations seem cool to me, though I personally like strangertheory's version better ^.^

Hi!

That's a very interesting question. I want to start by saying that I am a singlet, so I don't have DiD or OSDD. My knowledge of this condition is primarly known through medias I consume or some more "advanced" psychiatric documents or researches.

DiD is a condition that hasn't been always best represented or accurately represented since this condition varies from people who have it and so while there are similarities, the experience of it is very much unique and personal. It is also something that in a fictional setting with different genres, themes and tones is very hard to pull off or represent unless you go for the very realistic take on it.

It is bound to be, like many other things in fiction, dramatized. And speaking from a singlet perspective, who also had particular problems represented in fiction, I think it's okay as long as it's done right, in the setting, tone and genre it is in.

For example, we have today a lot more LGBTQ+ representation and like everything, unless you go for the fully realistic route, it's going to be simplified and dramatized. There's so many gender identities and sexual orientations today, you have to simplify it. And that goes for many other things that people care about in media, it has to be done right, but the writers still have a story to tell and unless that subject is the focus of the story, they're not gonna always spend their time talking about that. There is a story to tell.

Secondly, if it is the main focus of the story, that is where people have to do their research and really represent what they are talking about. Not some half-baked representation with dull arguments and points that come from a capitalist and conservative worldview. (Looking at you Disney.)

Now what you are referencing are @strangertheory 's and @kaypeace21 's theories which are about the show being about a DiD system where we see different alters evolving in said story with the host being Will Byers.

There is a lot of evidence pointing towards it, I'm gonna let you go see their posts and read it.

But their theories are very different in the way that they see the show portraying DiD, I have actually find quite a great way to describe the two takes.

@kaypeace21 's take is that elements of the DiD system have been externalised through science-"fictional" or supernatural means. Similar to Legion from the Marvel universe.

(David is a powerful mutant with DiD where each alters, if I remember correctly, has a different power or powers. (Which to this day is still one of the most BADASS thing I have ever come across though it must be quite terrifying for David.))

@strangertheory is an internalised POV on the DiD system existing in the show. She believes that what we are seeing right now is what is exclusively happening INSIDE the DiD system and that what we are experiencing is not our standard definition of the "real world". As in the physical world we all know. This would be in very vulgar terms happening inside Will's self, head, mind or brain. In a sense, it would be a more accurate representation of what DiD is about. A Shyamalan twist if you prefer.

(Though right now I don't have any word for word examples of such take, there is a show called MR.ROBOT that fits a bit of this description since there are moments in the show that we are seeing are only happening in the DiD system itself.

I recommend this show A LOT. It still is a bit dramatized but from what I know the DiD representation is quite accurate and pleased a lot of people with DiD. Also some people on the Stranger Things crew worked on that show.)

Now do I love the DiD theory ?

Heck yeah, I fucking love it! And with a big L! (Am I right "The First I love you?").

And I Love both of the takes and I think each one works at explaining the mysteries of this story. I even think that in some ways both could work well together.

I believe that DiD can be, without the meaning of being used, like many things a powerful storytelling "device" since it is connected to so many themes and other writing tools and is linked literally to the psyche, emotions and personalities of the characters.

I can understand why some people like both or one or respectfully and logically dislike both or one of the takes. But it is close to my belief about what the show is about or were even before I came into this fandom or on the internet, not as complex and thought out as the theory itself but pretty close in the overall themes and aspects of it.

(Though it bewilders me how much people lack imagination or are scared of such twist when I have seen so many of those types before whether it's done well or not, accurate or not.)

Now both @strangertheory and @kaypeace21 are intelligent people with very nuanced takes. And they had their fair share of completely unjust controversies coming from either rabbid ignorant shippers, far too sensible people or downright ignorant stupid people, most of the time 16 year olds. I am not saying that they are perfect, no one is, but the hate they have received is completely unjust.

And I am gonna lay it down right here, they are begging for an accurate representation here, they are not doing this because it just sounds cool and is edgy, they are actually wanting that The Duffers pull this off well. They would be very mad if they use all the imagery just to make it look cooler or scarier.

They are not bringer of truths, they are just like us. They are theorists, they believe in something that they think can explain the story they love and are experiencing. And so far, they have a pretty damn good track record.

They are analysing, dissecting the show because it's what they want to do and they believe in it and they believe the Duffers wants them to do that (I mean how come no one believes it when watching a show like that set in the 80's with so many references ?).

It is also supposed to be fun. Have fun for God's Sake! You can disagree with it but calling names and being disrespectful because somehow they don't agree with very basic, lazy and cliché theories (and no it's not being hypocrite, a lot of people barely do the work.) or are not on board with your creepy projection over the characters IS not okay.

And no, they aren't supporting p*d*philia as some people have claimed. How can you read these theories and come up to that conclusion ?

Most people haven't even read the DiD theory or have gone all the way through with it because they are lazy, easily bored people who don't have the time to just relax, process and think.

Stranger Things is not a kids show, some dumb teenage romance drama show with cool monsters! It's a very mature show, with real problems that are treated, out of which is trauma and mental health. Kids are killing people and even dying on this show. There is sexism, racism, abuse both physical and psychological.

It is a very mature and dark show. And you are being disrespectful to the Duffers when you say they are not that smart or that isn't that important. They are putting a lot of thoughts into this and the fact that no one really recognises this annoys me.

Or people only think it's important when it is only about the things they enjoy in the show. (Which is more hypocrite to me.) OR people are very stupid if they truly think that or are just jealous, bitter that two women have more imagination together and individualy than all of them or that person alone.

Color and costume choices, subtext, context, camera angles, directing, VFX, music, editing, sets, props, script, acting and editing are very important. All must be carefully done or you get very bad or generic stuff if you don't. If you love and you are passionate about the work, you put all the details you can into it.

And the Duffers and all the people working with them have already referenced those sort of things AND the practice of what we do on the internet. They are aware, they know because they have been in the same place too. They grew up with stories too, they made theories too whether it's on the internet or not.

At the end of the day, it is just a theory. An explanation of what is unfolding, may unfold or may have unfolded. I believe in it, I think it is reasonable, it has logic and it makes sense. It also has a lots of elements backing it up.

And the Duffers don't even have to go with DiD or mention it. Will creating some of the characters and supernatural events from his trauma is also similar and more accessible to the masses. But a Shyamalan twist can also work if it is done well.

And I am also open to other possibilities and theories, if they make sense and have enough elements IN THE SHOW and everything connected to it backing it up.

If the Duffers write something completely different but it is as good and also explains even better than this theory than I'll be okay. I love being wrong, it makes me learn new things and enhances the way I approach stories in the future.

If the Duffers only used this as some very inaccurate and disrespectful scary/abstract subtext without commiting to it. That is where I will have a problem.

Or write something completely incoherent with the rest of the show with a bad plot twist catering to the main public masses to sell the story even more and just make money so that they are safe with a fallacy of a work of fiction. Because they are cowards who didn't know how to manage themselves and baited entire audiences or listened to some crappy executive who didn't understand shit about the story. (wink wink, looking at a certain something...)

So yeah, I do love the DiD theory and both of it's takes and if it happens and is done right, with of course my perspective on the thing and PRIMARLY the perspective of people who have DiD or know a lot about it, I'll be pleased with it and I think it could be something very important for stories, people, the world and "art" in general.

Thank you for the question it was really fun! I hope I described the theory and the condition in the right way @kaypeace21 and @strangertheory and also the people who are concerned or know about it if I didn't let me know. Also, if you disagree with what I said, the way I said it or the subject itself let me also know IF it's respectful of course.

[itsonlystrange]

I’d like to point out that the “it’s all just a bunch of coincidence” argument is very poor. People say that about anything they don’t like. If we’re using this argument then I could say that everytime Mileven accidentally held hands or touched or any of that lovey dovey stuff that the Mileven fandom goes nuts over is a coincidence, but I have 0 evidence that it’s a coincidence, I’m just saying it is because that’s how I, a biased person on the side of byler, sees it. And I love the Milevens that actually respect us, it’s just the toxic ones that stomp on us or rain on our parade that irritate me.

So I ask skeptical Milevens, why do you think it’s all a coincidence? Because the Duffers have gone on record multiple times saying that nothing in their show is a coincidence, so it’s odd of you to assume that it is, when that goes against everything the duffers have said.

I see a lot of people claim that all of Bylers very romantic coded scenes are just coincidences with out any real evidence solely because they want them to be coincidences.

Reminder that the duffers had to write, revise, have Noah and Finn read at the table read, rehearse, and then film all of Bylers romantic coded scenes. And do you seriously believe that nobody stepped up and said, “Hey, I think some people will start to ship this if you make your two male characters hold hands and look at each others lips.” Like on paper, that sounds romantic. And on screen, it looks romantic too! If the duffers didn’t want byler to be shown as romantic they wouldn’t have put all of that effort into Mike and Will’s romanticly coded scenes in season two. And sure, one could say they were oblivious and didn’t realize that this relationship could be seen as anything more than romantic and that one of their 100 other writers and revisors and producers didn’t step up and say “Is this really what we want to be conveying in this show when they’re just supposed to be friends?” (Which I doubt. The duffers and everyone else on the writing crew knew exactly what they were implying. And if the duffers themselves didn’t, I HIGHLY doubt that someone didn’t step up and point out how romantic some of these scenes are, especially considering multiple of their writers are apart of the lgbtq community which makes it highly more likely that someone would have realized as I’m sure their gay senses are much stronger than those of the cishet writers on the squad. ) However, byler kind of blew up after season two, so if ST didn’t mean for Mike and Will’s relationship to be seen as more than platonic, then why did they continue doing it in season three? And the thing is, we’re not “delusional” for thinking this. Hundreds of thousands of millions of people have pointed this out across all platforms. It stops being a problem with us and “seeing what we want to see” when millions of people see the same, and it becomes the writers problem for even implying that in the first place.

Here’s an example: take Lucas and Dustin. Sure, there are definitely people out there that think or head canon as either as gay, but not nearly as big of a community as the Byler community. The reason is: Lucas and Dustin don’t have queer coding. They haven’t been painted the same way as Mike and Will’s relationship has. Or Jonathan, yeah, people may head canon as him as gay, or even think he actually is, but he doesn’t have any evidence that really points up to the fact that he is, or that he could be.

The duffers aren’t stupid. They wouldn’t have written byler this way if they didn’t want people shipping it. The official ST writer account has acknowledged byler multiple times, before st3 even started filming. They knew what they were doing. If their goal was to portray Mike and Will as a simple platonic friendship, and that all of their queer coded scenes in st2 were just a coincidence, why would they continue to do it in season 3? Queer baiting is real, yes. However like I said before, the st writing team has a lot of queer and lgbtq+ members themselves, not sure why they would want to queer bait when they’re gay/lesbian/bisexual themselves.

The truth is, byler would have never made it this far if it wasn’t meant to be shipped and portrayed like more of a romantic relationship than a platonic one. They would have shut it down awhile ago. They wouldn’t be so ominous about it. Noah and Finn wouldn’t constantly dodge questions about it unless they legally weren’t allowed to answer them. The duffers wouldn’t have been so vague in the ending of season 3 or in any interviews regarding season 3 about byler. Mike and Will wouldn’t have gotten a whole segment in the official ST book, they wouldn’t have held hands! Seriously! They held hands. Did someone seriously not point out how non platonic that was?———

And use the excuse all you want, “Will was just scared. That’s why Mike held his hand.” Okay, well Max and Lucas held hands when they were both scared in the exact same episode but I guess that doesn’t count because they’re a boy and a girl and Mike and Will are two boys. ———-And it’s funny because you KNOW that if Mike promised to go crazy together with El, that would he in every Milevens Instagram bio, it’d be on merchandise, it’d be everywhere. If Mike said meeting El was the best thing he’s ever done, people would be going bat shit crazy over how romantic that is and how they’re so in love. If Mike and El fought and he ran out in the middle of the rain looking for her when he couldn’t even apologize to his real girlfriend who dumped him just hours prior, people would say that Mike was in love with El and how much he cares about her yadda yadda. But that’s the thing. It’s two boys, so apparently it has to be platonic. Because that’s just how it works in their cishet minds. ——I’d like to see a better argument then “it was all a coincidence.” Because that’s not valid. Why? Why do you think it’s all a coincidence? It’s all just fake? Please. Elaborate. Because if these romantic scenes involved Mike and El instead of Mike and Will, then they’d see. Because they didn’t have Finn and Noah rehearse all these romantic coded scenes multiple times for nothing. They literally wrote, revised, edited, rehearsed, and filmed ALL of these scenes and still went through with it. And even in season three when people really started shipping byler, they STILL directed Finn and Noah to look at eachothers lips. They still filmed the rain fight. KNOWING byler shippers existed and KNOWING this would only heighten the amount of byler shippers there are.

The duffers aren’t stupid. This isn’t a surface level show. Everything they do is intentional, they’ve said it themselves. And yes, I agree that some byler proof COULD just be apophenia, but stuff like this? Crazy together? Looking at eachothers lips? Holding hands? I’m the only one that cares about Will? Mike keeping his eyes open in the final Mileven kiss, those aren’t small little things. You’re telling me that they couldn’t find another take for that final Mileven kiss? No. Finn kept his eyes open because he was directed to do so. The duffers are writers and directors for a reason. They went to school for this. So please, I’d like to see some actual argument against byler other than “they said they loved eachother!” “It’s all a coincidence!” I’d like to see people actually counter my arguments with actual evidence. Not just “Finn says they’re in love” not just “Millie ships it!” Because interviews are not evidence. They’re instructed to create hype for the show. If David can lie about hopper being dead, Finn and Millie can lie about Mileven being in love. I don’t want the argument of “it’s been built up for 3 seasons so they won’t destroy it now.” Stancy was built up for 2 seasons and see how that turned out. And Mileven fell more in season three than it went up.

Anyways,, if you’re a polite Mileven, this isn’t for you. I love you with my whole heart. If you’re just vibing, I love you. Ship what you want to ship! Feel free to counter my argument! However, If you’re someone who calls us “delusional”, leave. The doors right there. The cast has talked about how much they hate the ship wars in our fandom, so if you’re just gonna say how stupid we are, don’t let the door hit you on the way out:)

Sorry for long post lol. Love you all

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

Why do you think so many fans, even those who wouldn’t be considered casual viewers of the show think that those who romantically ship Mike and Will are kidding themselves? Sometimes I feel like I’m missing something, like we’re not even watching the same show. From my perspective, it’s beyond me to how someone could look at Mike and El’s romantic relationship, especially after s3, and think it’s proper.

Great question. I’ve touched on this issue a time or two before, but perhaps never in such a direct manner. I think there’s several things in play here that lead to the more “mainstream” fans considering it crazy when Mike and Will are seen as a romantic pairing. I think these same causes also lead to fans missing how improper, to use your terms, Mike and El’s relationship is. Some of these things are more valid than others, but they’re all valid in the sense that they are real, meaning that people aren’t just being petty. There are those out there who are petty, of course, but I think it’s unfair to cast all fans we disagree with in with that group.

First, let’s get this out of the way, heteronormativity maintains quite the stranglehold on American culture. Yes, we’ve come a long, long way. Gay characters and couples are portrayed in a much more positive light compared to twenty or more years ago. Still, they continue to be treated as a shock, either in behavior or reveal. By that I mean that these characters are either blatantly obvious or a complete surprise. There is seldom any middle ground here. This is, in my opinion anyway, a remnant of the transition of gay characters from caricatures to genuine characters. Fans, American fans at least, want to seem accepting to gay people, but they also want it crystal clear that gay people are different from them. To quote Homer Simpson from Homer’s Phobia, a 1997 episode of The Simpsons, “I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals flaming!”

The 90s were a time when gay people were starting to be seen as decent people instead of deviants. They still weren’t equal, though, and were often used as props and novelties. The Gay Best Friend trope came out of this idea that gay people were fun and exotic, and many would also use them as a way to show how progressive they were. It was a step in the right direction, perhaps, but gay people were still not seen as equals.

Why is this important? Well, maybe it’s not, but not only is Stranger Things the product of two brothers who grew up in that era of thinking, but so is the largest segment of the viewership. Most Stranger Things viewers fall in the 18-29 and 30-44 demographics. I, myself, fall in the latter category. While we all laughed at Homer’s idiotic homophobia, we all knew deep down that we were similarly taken in by stereotypes and heternormativity. That is to say, that being straight was the normal, expected way of things, and gay people was something neat and trendy, but that only happened to other people.

This mindset persists today, though it does seem to be slowly eroding. We still expect most characters to be straight. I suppose, in some ways, this makes sense. The majority of people in America (and likely the world) still identify as heterosexual, so, technically, statistically, being LGBT is “abnormal.” Still, the degree to which I see LGBT people being open about their identities sometimes catches me off guard when I stop to think about it. It’s something that was unimaginable when I was a teenager, barring being in an identified gay club or neighborhood. The fact that it catches me off guard, despite identifying as bisexual, is proof that those mechanisms of my upbringing persist.

I am able to see the romantic undertones of Mike and Will’s relationship because I’ve been there. I’ve been in love with a same-sex friend and been afraid to say anything about it. I’ve agonized over whether it was real or just a phase. I’ve struggled with hiding it. I’ve tried to keep my feelings hidden while also letting them slip out in controlled bursts of not-quite-platonic gestures. I’ve even wondered how I could be “like that” when I acted and dressed just like any other guy I knew. Despite living it, I still saw “it” as something foreign and different. It’s only because I lived it that I can see through the heteronormativity and recognize homosexual love in “straight” TV and movie characters. I’m sorry, but Poe Dameron was definitely into Finn, and Finn, at the very least, idolized Poe, and you can’t convince me otherwise, no matter what Disney tried to pull by giving them both inconsequential female love interests.

(Christ, this is turning into a real rant here, oh well, the bottle has been opened.)

So, yeah, heteronormativity basically tells us that if characters are gay then they’ll act a “certain way” so we know. Mike and Will don’t do this, so, to most fans, they aren’t gay. Heteronormativity and pop culture tropes also tell us that male and female leads are meant to end up together. Now, in defense of other fans, the Duffers do play around with all sorts of tropes, so it’s understandable that people would expect things to be just as formulaic in Stranger Things. The problem these fans don’t see, however, is that the Duffers seem to like subverting the tropes.

For those of you who aren’t aware, subverting a trope means that we are led to believe that we’re being shown something we’ve seen time and time again, only to end up with something else. Season 1 was so big on this that I fell in love with the show. Adults Are Useless? Joyce did not sit around while the kids solved the mystery. Hopper wasn’t the ineffectual drunk cop I was expecting him to be. Jerk Jock? No, Steve is actually a nice, if dopey, guy once he stops letting his friends influence him. Virgin Survivor? No, sex is not seen as a vice needing to be punished, so Barb dies instead of Nancy. The Duffers know what we expect to see, they tease us with it, then pull the rug out from under us.

So, what do we expect in terms of romance? We expect our opposite sex leads to pair up. This would mean Mike & El and Joyce & Hopper as our kid and adult lead pairs, respectively. Mike & El, in particular, seems to be something they’ve tantalized fans with, both in the show and marketing. We can look at that relationship, though, and see that it’s not built on much. That’s somewhat in line with many kid relationships, so, really, it’s expected that it would similarly fizzle out as those relationships generally do. These are two kids who knew each other for a week, then spent a year apart. If anything, they’re more in love with the ideas of each other they created in that time apart than anything else. This could explain why their relationship was so shallow once they’re together again. We all experienced this type of crush or relationship before, the one where we don’t really know the person so we create a version of them in our minds. This version often clashes with the real one once we get to know them. Still, we’ve all been there.

This brings me to my final point: identification. We identify with characters when we watch TV shows and movies. I dare say most, if not all, of us can identify with these kids getting these crushes and early relationships. The youngest fans probably identify even more since they’re currently in those stages of life. I’m sure many young fans identify with either Mike or El, and perhaps fantasize about being with the other (or both?). Whether we realize it or not, we’re casting our own wants and needs onto the characters. Some fans want Mike and El together because it validates their own feelings and experiences.

I know that I certainly identify with Mike and Will through my own teenage experiences. I identify with other characters for more mature, adult reasons, as well. Yes, a part of me ships Mike and Will because of this. The difference here, compared to other ships I’ve gotten behind, is that this actually seems real. There is canon evidence that Mike and Will appear to have non-platonic feelings for each other, feelings built over a very long friendship. Mike legit seems like the closeted, possibly not even aware, gay kid going through the motions of a straight relationship. Will seems like he’s actively suppressing any romantic urges because he’s spent his life being bullied for being queer. They’ve been written to have more genuinely romantic moments than Mike and El have had. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, the writers will have some explaining to do if they don’t get together. Many fans will miss it, due to the reasons mentioned above, but it’s all been laid there before us. Nobody should be surprised, but they will be.

[kaypeace21]

Coincidences? (Or foreshadowing of  romantic endings?)

color me delusion over “ pointing out meaningless coincidences” but I still can’t get over the tv references most likely hinting about certain couples not being endgame. 

Sorry, i just don’t think it’s a coincidence that El in s2 watches ‘all my children’ where she mimics  Erica Kane who (in the ep she is watching) rushes into a relationship/elopement with a writer named Mike Roy, after a traumatic experience ( and the 2 end up  not being endgame ). And the relationship gets messy and involves stalking .

 Then in s3, Joyce watches Cheers (”rescue me”),  and Jopper is  compared to Dianne and fraiser. Diane says as joyce is listening to the tv “He had a couple of sips of Chianti tonight and asked me to marry him.” . At dinner Hopper orders a chianti while being stood up by Joyce. And Dianne and Frasier don’t marry and are also not endgame, cause Dianne stands him up at the alter. The other ep of cheers she watches in s3 (was in the Bob/joyce flashback) , and was called “ the rebound part 2″ in reference to Fraiser (aka Hopper) being the rebound. He’s just a rebound to Bob-why she’s thinking of Bob after Hopper asked her out.

Then Hopper in s3 also watches a magnum pi rerun from 1980-  the 2 ep pilot is called “don’t eat the snow in Hawaii”. Magnum ( solving crime with his colorful Hawaiian shirts, similar to Hopper) kisses Alice who he has a history with. Alice promises to come back so they can be together (like Joyce with Enzo’s)-but it’s a lie and she never shows up again in the series and they aren’t endgame either . Also, when Joyce in ep 8 accepts the date- Hopper says he can’t do so at a certain time because he and El watch Miami Vice. The main cop in that also has a will-they wont they relationship (for several seasons with a female detective who was also a main character (like Joyce- aka ‘detective Byers’).  AND THEY ALSO WERE NOT ENDGAME. ”Gina had an on-again, off-again relationship with Crockett, who was on the rebound after divorcing his wife, Caroline. The relationship faded out as Gina realized they mainly got together when one or both needed someone. Crockett was very protective of Gina, and had some jealousy when Gina was involved in relationships with other people …but was the first one to be there for her when things went wrong.”

-Also, In s2 Hopper angrily turns off cheers (Ep : ‘Sam turns the other cheek’). Causing  jopper to (maybe?) also be compared to Sam and Diane from cheers too. Who have a long ‘will they won’t they’ relationship for more than 5 seasons (and used to date). And are also not endgame.The ep that plays in s3 that Joyce watches - has Diane say that Sam abuses her and  mentions how they constantly argue (just like s3) but she says she can’t stay away because she loves him. A guy hearing this says “if you ever get tired of him and want a normal quiet life, think of me.” And this is also at the same time she’s reminiscing about being with such a guy- Bob (while watching the show). It pretty much reflects what Murray said about jopper. Hopper reminds her of a “bad relationship”(Lonnie)- but she can’t help wanting to hook up with Hopper.  Despite “wanting to settle down with a nice guy (like bob).” Sam even was an alcoholic ex baseball player (Like Lonnie forcing Will to play/having beer cans everywhere) and Dianne having mental health issues (like Joyce).

Glen and Les Charles (just like the Duffers were brothers who created a show -cheers) . Their explanation about why Dianne and Sam didn’t end up together despite all the seasons of ‘will they won’t they ‘ echos jopper’s dynamic to a T . And I believe the Duffers are emulating Sam/Dianne and these fellow bro-writers.“Sam & Diane were so different. Their relationship (for comic and dramatic purposes) was fraught with conflict. Most of our time was spent devising new, funny, and fresh complications for them. Projecting forward, I believe they would driven each other insane had they gone off hand-in-hand – each with the best intentions, but ending with restraining orders. “

Pretty much. the moral of sam & diane’s story according to the Charles brothers was ‘there may be someone in your life you long for but deep down in your heart of hearts you know they’re wrong for you.’ And i think the duffers are using this inspiration from a fellow brother writing team (from the 80s) in regards to Jopper.

 Then in regards to Lumax. Max and Lucas wear shirts referencing the couple from that 70s show. Max -is donna the feminist, tomboy, red-head, who doesn’t take sh*t. What’s interesting is lucas wears one of eric’s shirts from when they’re broken up and he’s fliritng with other girls- and earlier in the season Max called Lucas ‘Don juan’ (a name for a player- so it’s probably foreshadowing for s4.)

Max is also paralleled to 2 film characters Lucas doesn’t like- Michael meyers & Winston. Lucas: “ I specifically didn’t agree to Winston…nobody wants to be Winston, man.” Mike: “what’s wrong with Winston?”Lucas: He joined the team super late.Mike: yeah , but he’s still cool.Max being cool and joining the party late probably means she’s supposed to be Winston, right? it’s like how Lucas and dustin in s1 dissed el and said she was like Michael Myers. Cue max in her Michael Myers mask

- Also, the tv parallel of El (in s2) mimicking Erica Kane and pretending to be with a fictional Mike Roy. Also parallels Karen/ Billy. In s2, before she meets him she’s reading a romance book that has a guy that resembles Billy on the cover. The Duffers even mentioned they changed the cover to show the resemblance between Billy and the fictional book character. And we see Karen reading the sequel in s3 before Billy appears. Both El and Karen don’t/didn’t love Mike or Billy- they just projected onto them fictional characters they were infatuated with.Max also is said to do something similar- as the costume designers have Lucas dress up like “Max’s crush”- the karate kid (to impress her) and “be like him”.

I mean maybe I am “crazy” but this seems more like overt foreshadowing about these pairings not being endgame.  I could be wrong but I really do believe the Duffers throw in details to foreshadow and allude to things occurring in the story. In a video (7:41) the Duffers mention how they had El in s2 watch Frankenstein on tv to indicate her emotionally state in the cabin feeling “cut off from the world” and “like a monster”. So I don’t think it’s a stretch-when they’ve already admitted what their character watches on tv pertains to something regarding that specific character . ( So why can’t what a character watches on tv (or read) also foreshadow them not ending up with a particular person?)

Then you have the Stalking elements...

Lumax is paralleled to mileven and jancy which have stalking elements, specifically stalking their future partner (lucas being called a ‘stalker’ for stalking Max, el spying on mike and saying “I make my own rules “ -ignoring his discomfort , Jonathan taking pics of nancy unbeknownst to her- although he apologized ) . And although, not as direct of a parallel as the first 3- Hopper spies on mileven kissing  and eavesdrops on Joyce’s move. At the snowball, Lumax and mileven danced to ‘every breath you take’- a song about a bad break up and a stalker ex . The writer of the song also has said many times “it’s NOT a love song.” The duffers obviously knew that. Lumax also danced to it and Lucas was called a ‘stalker’ before they go to the dance floor- to emphasize this point. El also stalked Mike in s2 (all that stuff milevens found romantic- El watching him without him knowing. Mike says he was not ok with it in s3). And in s3 when he said not to do that  she just says ‘i make my own rules’.

* lumax also danced to ‘time after time’ which is also a song about a breakup. And, Max in s2 when  arguing with Lucas’ says “ you guys act like you want me to be your friend but then you just treat me like garbage” (paralleling mileven when El said mike treated her “like garbage” in s3 , before she dumps Mike.)

You can read about more of these “coincidences” or what I’d like to think are purposeful parallels HERE. Warning there’s a lot of parallels.

[jonny-byerss]

Why Jancy Is Endgame

So, recently, I’ve seen quite a bit of Jancy hate which I literally don’t understand, because how can you look at Jancy and think “Wow, I hate them”...like, it genuinely baffles me that people don’t ship Jancy, like how? They have SO MUCH CHEMISTRY it’s unreal. In all three seasons, it’s evident that there’s something more between them than just “monster hunting partners”. So, recently, I have been asking multiple people including my irl friends why they think Jancy is endgame and this is what I’ve come up with.

1.) The Duffers Aren’t Dumb

Even though quite a bit of people are disappointed with the way they’ve taken their writing, you have to admit one thing: they aren’t dumb. They’ve been setting Jancy up to be canon since S1, and fans have been rooting for them to get together since S1. It’s not until Steve’s turn-around that people started hating on Jancy.

Jancy is definitely more popular than Stancy for sure. To a majority of fans, even if Jancy isn’t their favorite Stranger Things ship, they still at least ship it. And, with the exception of hardcore Steve stans, most people who like Steve as a character admit that Jonathan and Nancy fit better together than Steve and Nancy ever did. We know the Duffers like to give in to what a majority of fans want, and Jancy seems to be what a majority of fans want.

There’s 3 core ships that the Duffers have been building up since S1. Those are Jopper, Jancy, and Mileven. It’s obvious in S1 that these ships are going to become canon eventually, and they’re also the three core ships of the show that people love. They also tend to focus on these three relationships quite a bit in their writing, with the majority of major relationship moments being with these three ships, especially Mileven. It’s obvious they want us to root for these ships.

The main point I’m trying to make is the Duffers have been setting Jancy up to be canon since S1. They have shown us many moments in all three seasons that show us just how much chemistry Jancy has. From the bed scene in S1, to the hallway scene in S2, they’re obviously trying to show us that Jancy is meant to get together.

Not only that, but Jancy was ACTUALLY supposed to be canon in S1. I don’t know how many people know this, but Steve was supposed to die in S1, and Jancy was supposed to get together. The writers liked Joe Keery so they decided they needed to find a way to keep him on the show. It’s clear to me that the writers themselves are rooting for Jancy, which means that they want us to root for Jancy too.

I’m not here to say how the Duffers should write the next seasons, and I myself don’t know what happens in the future seasons, but I do see the clues that the Duffers have given us since S1 and I also believe that the Duffers know what they’re doing. They know what the majority of fans want and it’s clear to me that they want us to root for Jancy, so obviously they’re gonna keep them together.

2.) THAT Ending Scene In S3

A lot of people that say “Jancy has no chemistry” clearly have not seen their last scene in S3. To me, that scene is a promise. A promise to each other and to us that Jancy is in it for each other.

In this scene, you can see that they are so painfully in love. They don’t want to leave each other. You can tell it breaks both of their hearts that they have to separate for a bit.

I could do a whole analysis of this scene, and I just might do that later, but to me, what they’re saying to each other is “We’ve been through so much together, why can’t we go through a little more?”

Sure, long-distance would be harder in the 80s, but I do believe that their love is strong enough to last. They clearly both love each other very much. And there’s always phone calls and letters and visiting each other on breaks.

When thinking of the LDRs that the Byers move caused, lots of people think of Mileven, but Jancy is actually way more likely to be endgame than Mileven at this point. We don’t know what happens in future seasons or if the Byers eventually move back, but we do know that Jonathan and Nancy are seniors in high school and almost 18. Mike and Eleven are barely starting high school and have more time to be apart than Jancy does. Once Jancy graduates, they can do whatever they want. Sure, one could say that Jonathan might feel an obligation to stay with his family, but we also know that he has an ambition for NYU. We have no idea what Nancy wants. I can honestly see her go to college for journalism or something similar. What’s to stop her from going to NYU or somewhere in NY with Jonathan?

We don’t know what the Duffers have in store for Jancy’s future, but I trust that they can give Jancy the perfect ending they deserve. That scene in S3 has so much underlying meaning to it, like the fact that the song that play in the background during it is called “You’re a Fighter”. I have a whole different thing planned on analyzing that scene, and I’ll post that later, but basically, with that scene, to me, the Duffers are trying to say “They’re in this for each other. They’re so in love that they’re going to make it work”

3) They are the most mature relationship on the show

I’ve seen quite a few people say that the argument they had in S3 is “proof they are incompatible” but that is simply not true. In fact, if anything, it shows how they are exactly the opposite. Here’s why.

So, every couple fights. It’s the ability to work through a fight and come out stronger and more understanding that shows just how committed a couple is to each other. Jonathan and Nancy are a prime example of this.

Jonathan and Nancy come from different backgrounds. This argument of “I’m poor” and “People are being sexist towards me” is a very adult argument. I mean, most teenage couples you see have fights about jealousy-type crap. Jancy’s fight is a fight that adults would have. That’s why I believe they are a very mature couple.

Not only that, but the key thing to remember is that they both admitted that they felt bad for what they said and apologized, reaffirming their commitment to each other. This is a fight that they can grow from as a result. Because they apologized and acknowledged their wrong-doings, they have a better foundation for understanding each other in the future and they can grow as a couple. This can also give them a perspective on life that maybe they didn’t think about before.

Honestly, Jancy has been through a lot crap together so they kind of have to be mature. Plus, Jonathan himself had to grow up faster than most children, which gives him a perspective on life that he most likely passed on to Nancy.

This is why I believe Jancy is the most mature couple. Instead of letting their fight get the best of them, they acknowledged their wrong-doings and became more understanding of each other as a result. It takes real maturity to do something like that.

The reason I compare them to the other couples is because, look at Mileven’s fight in S3. It seems sort of childish compared to Jancy’s. And Lumax has broken up 5 times apparently. And Jopper, gosh, they have a lot of issues to work out. Jancy seems to have effectively worked out their differences and become stronger as a result.

Charlie Heaton (Jonathan) himself said that when he first read the S3 script, he thought that Jancy seemed like a married couple, which I think says a lot about their relationship. They are so mature and comfortable with each other like that. He also said this, which basically sums up what I said, here:

4) They are more than just “shared trauma”

I’ve seen a lot of people criticize Jancy by saying stuff like “Shared trauma isn’t a good foundation for a relationship”, but I’m about to prove why that’s bullcrap, because Jancy is more than their shared trauma.

So, shared trauma seems to be what the writers like to point out about their relationship. In the ending scene in S3, Jonathan tells Nancy “We’ve got shared trauma”. He is referring to what Murray said to them in S2 when he was telling them why they should get together. Just because “shared trauma” is what Murray emphasized, doesn’t mean it’s their only foundation.

I’d quickly like to point out though, that shared trauma is actually a real life relationship trope and there are real-life couples founded on this. But, I’d also like to point out that Jancy’s trauma isn’t just any trauma. They didn’t just fight in Vietnam together or something, like it’s not every day your loved one gets kidnapped by an otherworldly demon.

I think the main emphasis that the show is focusing on when they say “shared trauma” is the scars. I mean, when Jonathan said that line in S3, he was touching Nancy’s scar that he shares with her. They are the only two people with those matching scars. Those scars are something that unites them and reminds them of the past they share.

Their “trauma” isn’t just how they met either. I mean, they obviously knew each other before the events of S1. Their brothers are best friends. I’m not saying they were friends or anything, but they were definitely acquaintances.

Their trauma is how they grew closer. I mean, before their first traumatic experience, they seemed to be getting on each other’s nerves a bit. It’s not until Nancy almost became Demogorgon lunch that they started realizing they could trust each other. After that, they realized they worked well together and they may or may not have fallen in love.

Also, let’s not forget all the flirting they did before their traumatic experience. The darkroom, even the target practice scene.

I think the key thing to remember with their trauma though is that, because they both went through similar experiences, they understand each other in that way. I mean, part of Stancy breaking up was because Steve didn’t realize the trauma she was going through and didn’t understand fully how to help her. Jonathan understood in a way what she was feeling because he went through something similar.

And yeah, shared trauma might not be a good foundation, because obviously there’s other things to consider in a relationship, but if there’s anything S3 showed us it’s that Jancy knows how to communicate and work through their problems, so clearly that’s not an issue for them.

5) The love triangle is done

I’ve seen some online articles that say things like “Now that Jonathan is gone, Nancy will go back with Steve”. I’ve even heard people say “Nancy will go with Robin”. Both of those are bullcrap.

First of all, Stancy’s arc is finished. S2 showed us how incompatible they were by showing how Steve hasn’t been a good support system for Nancy and showing that Nancy no longer loved Steve. Nancy obviously felt something more for Jonathan, who could support her in a better way than Steve could, because Jonathan had similar experiences. After they broke up, they were done. And when Jonathan and Nancy kissed the love triangle was over. It was solved.

I think most of the fans can agree that they are glad the love triangle was solved, that way Nancy’s story can be about more than just boys. It would be stupid for the Duffers to bring it back and it would ruin every ounce of character development that Steve and Nancy have gone through. And I am confident that the Duffers aren’t stupid.

Part of Steve’s S2 arc is getting over Nancy and accepting that she no longer loves him and even finding a friend in Dustin. Part of Nancy’s arc in S2 was realizing she should embrace that girl she was for a week in November 1983. She gets justice for Barb and even embraces her feelings for the school outcast. Nancy and Steve can still be friends, and even Jonathan and Steve, but that’s it. Nothing more. It’s been decided that Nancy doesn’t love Steve, she loves Jonathan. Even if Jonathan is far away, it’s possible to love him from a distance.

And about Robin and Nancy, it’s also highly unlikely. Again, I think most fans are tired of Nancy’s love life and love triangle and are glad it’s over. Adding Robin to the mix would make it even more complicated.

First of all, it’s not canon that Nancy is bisexual. The only canon LGBT character is Robin. It is implied that Will may be as well, but nothing has been confirmed.

I can see Robin and Nancy being good friends, but Robin did call her a priss in S3 and also, it’s like an unspoken rule in best-friendship that you don’t date their exes. Robin and Steve are best friends. This would break that rule.

I do know, based on leaked photos, Nancy and Robin most likely work together (maybe even with Steve) in S4. I believe, however, that the relationship is fully platonic. It would be nice for Nancy to have a friend that’s a girl after her loss of Barb, and Robin is a good person and would be a great friend for Nancy. I also believe, however, that Nancy is 100% dedicated to Jonathan (based on the last scene in S3) and will only be working with Robin (and maybe Steve) because they know something that would be useful.

Basically, what I’m trying to say is: Nancy’s love life arc has ended. It’s been decided that Nancy doesn’t love Steve and he can’t give her what she wants. And I think most Ronance shippers are just trolls, tbh. No one seems really serious about any Nancy and Robin relationship that’s anything more than platonic.

———————

And I think that about sums up why I believe Jancy is endgame. Jonathan and Nancy clearly love and care for each other very much as shown in all three seasons. Plus, there’s the fact that THEIR ACTORS ARE LITERALLY DATING IN REAL LIFE! (Seriously both Jancy and Natarlie are relationship goals).

I am extremely confident that even if Jancy does break up at some point, it won’t be for long and they’ll somehow find their way back to each other because they are soulmates. That is a guarantee. I have full confidence that the Duffers can give their relationship the perfect ending they deserve. I’d like to hear your guys’ feedback (please try to keep negativity away). Do you believe Jancy is endgame?

And here’s proof that Jancy loves each other:

[thestobingirlie]

as a fan of the series, i think the relationships are not exactly the best part of the show. idk maybe it is just me but i think it makes perfect sense for the writers to tease stancy because they find the drama interesting and want to stir the discussion. personally i think it is unlikely that they will change any of the couples' relationship status as of now, we are going for a finale season and i believe stancy would not work out at this point bc there has to be several things addressed for that to happen. no offense to bylers but i also feel the same way about byler. it's kinda obvious that mileven will continue to date and i feel like bylers kinda ignore that they've been a thing since forever, and i see their points as largely reaches or made up stuff. i am saying this as someone who recognizes the obvious teasing and attraction in stancy but i think they're not gonna happen either. i feel like it's waaaaay too late for that now.

yeah, i wouldn’t say the relationships are the weakest point in the show, but they’re not all very well written. but honestly, saying that the writers would use stancy to stir up drama, is just, like, admitting they aren’t good writers. because that is not a good writing choice.

i don’t know if they’ll change things up in the final season, there is still a lot that can be worked on with relationship dynamics, but again, the writers aren’t very good at them, and clearly prioritise plot over characters. and honestly, i have no idea about byler or mileven, there are points on both sides that i can totally see, and then points that don’t make sense. like, mileven does has some issues, but the duffers have been pushing for it s1, so i honestly dont know what’ll happen.

and for stancy, idk if it’s too late, because s4 did set up pretty well for it to happen, and though this is the final season, i think there might be enough time left to change up some couples. and to resolve some plot lines.

so, honestly i’m not sure what s5 will be like. i think there are good writing choices the duffers could choose, but i don’t know if they’ll choose them.

[steveharrington]

i hate hate hate saying this but sometimes when tv shows try to introduce a new friendship between girls/women i literally cringe and hate it so much, obviously not because i hate female friendships but because the writers can never seem to make it authentic and basically unite the characters on the fact that they have the same gender and that’s it, which is why i found max and eleven’s friendship so refreshing. what are your thoughts on how the duffer bros. handled it?

oh i agree 100% i am SO tired of men writing relationships between women that consist of like two conversations about girl power and then patting themselves on the back for it. an example that comes to mind is in marvel movies where two women who have never once interacted have one (1) scene where they’re like “lets fight together girlfriend <3″ and then people make 10,000 gifs of it and caption it #who run the world yknow like it’s so corny and meaningless. i actually think the duffers do a pretty good job with their female relationships. i know everyone hated the scene where el knocks max off her skateboard in season two, and like yeah that sucked because it was implied to be based off her “”romantic feelings”” (feels weird to write that about a 13 year old) for mike. but i don’t hate the idea of el initially having some hostility towards max! of course it would be lame if they just hated each other for the whole show, but at first i think  it’s actually realistic that el might not take to anyone outside of her established group of people, regardless of if that person is a girl or not. and i was thrilled to see so much time between el and max in season three, especially because they really took the time to make it meaningful. they aren’t just shopping to fill time and make a fun montage, they’re shopping because max wants to help el pick clothes that she can express herself and feel comfortable in. it’s a really strong friendship that’s actually rooted in support and love for each other instead of just the fact that they’re the only two girls in the group. my ultimate dream is that in season 4, if nancy and robin work together like people are speculating, they don’t just erase the fact that robin thinks nancy is a priss and nancy reacted to robin’s presence by saying “WHO are YOU” like duffers PLEASE embrace that! they have very different outlooks and personalities and it would be so interesting to explore that instead of just having them instantly become best friends