#mike and el

[the-yappstronaut]

What? Oh, sorry, I was just thinking about how if everything was the same except El was a boy then the entire ST audience would agree that Mileven's toxic. They would preach the fact that El was unhealthily codependent since they started dating as soon as El left the lab. They'd say that they were naïve and that neither of them understood themselves enough to be in a relationship and truly understand how they felt about each other. They'd say that Mike was clearly not nearly as invested in their relationship as El was, and that he couldn't say "I love you" to El because he wasn't romantically attracted to [him]. They'd say that it ruined both of their characters to force such an unhealthy relationship.

If El was a boy, then nobody would ship Mileven, because as it is, people see a boy and a girl and say that they belong together just because they are a boy and a girl, but use every (albeit sometimes valid) reason to not ship a queer ship.

[mileven11forever]

Hey! I disagree with you completely but I respect that you seem to be a kind and respectful Mileven. So I’m curious.

What would you say to the idea that if Mileven is endgame, based on the way the story has been written especially in S4 (with Will being in every Mileven shot, Will’s painting inspiring Mike to monologue to El, paralleling Byler to Rovickie and other ships, just the whole story of building out Will’s feelings for Mike over 4 seasons in what would be a slowburn rejection if you’re right), the Duffers have inherently crafted a homophobic and problematic story?

Most Bylers don’t just believe Byler endgame makes the most sense for the story, nor do we just believe it would be queerbaiting because of promotion outside the show. We believe the story itself is deeply problematic when viewed through a Mileven endgame lens.

The idea that this kid Will would go through all of this suffering and that they’d emphasize the bond between Mike and Will in this way… the idea that Will would say “I’m not gonna fall in love” in S3 because he doesn’t believe there’s love for gay kids like him… the idea of the painting veiled confession… the idea that the writers would have Byler literally end the season together side by side alongside other canon couples… only to have Mike reject Will in S5?

We believe that to be horribly homophobic writing, so to us it’s not simply a question of which ship we like more like other ship wars in history, but a real moral line in the sand. We believe it’s either Byler endgame, or the show falls apart, and the writers have explaining to do.

It’s not that hypothetical story of a gay kid falling in love with his straight best friend is homophobic, it’s the specific narrative choices that would be surrounding Mileven endgame in this context, each of them completely avoidabl, each of them specific decisions the writers made.

Additionally, Bylers believe Mileven endgame would A) make the show’s writing weaker and less meaningful, B) make the show make significantly less sense from a writing standpoint, and C) go against the main themes of the narrative.

Lastly, if Will were a girl, based on the way Mileven and Byler have both been written, there’s no way Milevens wouldn’t see the clear love triangle. The only reason it’s difficult for some to see it is because of heteronormativity and the idea that Mike is straight because he has a girlfriend. If you remove that, there aren’t any barriers to at least seeing the clear triangle.

Thoughts?

I honestly just disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with the story and the way it's being told. Will being in Mileven shots in season 4 is because it was from his POV in those moments. Will's painting didn't really inspire Mike's monologue, he just helped Mike find the courage to tell El how he really feels. And I don't really see the parallels people point out as being significant proof of anything. I do think Will's story will involve being rejected by Mike, while also being accepted by Mike as a friend. That's just what his story is, that's something a lot of queer people go through, there's nothing wrong with writing a character having to deal with and overcome that. I think it'll be an important part of Will's arc and character development. I don't see anything problematic or homophobic with any of that personally.

Yes, Will has suffered a lot unfortunately, but that's just his story, that's how life is for some people. He's unlucky and has just happened to be in these awful situations throughout his life, but that has nothing to do with Mike or his feelings. It's sad, but that's just how it is. Just like Will can't control how he feels about Mike, Mike can't control how he feels either, and that he loves El and just loves Will as a friend. It sucks that Will fell for his straight best friend, but that happens lots in real life too. And yeah, Will thinks he can't have love like everyone else because of his sexuality, and because of the time and place he lives in, which sucks, but also doesn't mean that he's automatically going to end up with his childhood crush. I think he should end up with someone eventually, but I just don't think it can be Mike. He needs to learn that he can have love and be loved, but just how he can't choose his sexuality, Mike can't either. They both can't change who they are, and that's ok.

I do think the painting will come up at some point and probably lead to Will's confession to Mike, but again, that's just Will finally sharing his feelings which has nothing to do with how Mike will respond. It'll be complicated, but Mike isn't going to just suddenly fall in love with Will when he finds out the truth about the painting.

And Mike and Will stand together at the end because they're friends. Just because the other pairs happen to be couples doesn't mean Byler is going to be endgame. That would be ridiculous in my opinion. I really don't understand when Bylers look so deep into little details like this and use that as evidence, it could literally mean nothing, or something other than Byler.

Once again, I don't think the writing choices the Duffers have made are homophobic, they just want to tell Will's story a certain way, and I don't see a problem with it.

I just don't agree. I think Mileven endgame is good writing, I think Byler endgame would make no sense. Mileven doesn't make the messages of the show any less meaningful in my opinion.

And yeah, I think that's probably true for some people. Heteronormativity is very prevalent and some people are definitely in denial about the obvious love triangle. I accept that there is a love triangle there, I just don't agree with a lot of people on how it will be resolved. Will likes Mike, El likes Mike, and Mike likes El. That's how I see it. I feel like the show has made this clear, and it's obvious which couple is actually happening in the canon story. Some Bylers just read a lot of meaning into things that I don't think was meant to be read like that.

If anyone has anything else to add, leave a comment or reblog this post.

[beep-beep-robin]

choices have been made, indeed

[f1nn-w0lfh4rd-l0v3r]

“el’s no stupid!”

you’re damn right…

(my edit)

[violettathepiratequeen]

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[northernfireart]

Here we are folks. @bloopdydooooo and I have been working on our very scientific research of assigning fursonas to the dropout cast (+ some extra...) and i have drawn 36 of them. more coming some time in the future, but enjoy this for now!!!! full list of (more specific) animals in the id's for the images!!! ty Cecil for that one!!<333

also not everyone fit in the tags and i cant ramble in there like i usually do with the 30 limit HELP!!! im sorry everyone past image 7....

[mileven11forever]

Yes! This! <3

The very simple reason Mileven is endgame

.. is because it was ALWAYS meant to be end game. 

All right look. I’m going to put this as simply as I possibly can. 

Mileven is and always has been the core of the story. Yes, there are other people and characters that revolve around them but fundamentally, they are the two that hold the entire thing together. 

Without El, no one else would’ve been involved in anything. Not Mike, not his crew, not Hopper, not the teen squad - no one.  

Without Mike, El would’ve been taken back to the lab almost immediately and again no one would’ve been involved in anything.

The entire show revolves around them. Their immediate connection and love for each other is the central driving plot of the entire narrative.

All right now that that’s out of the way, let’s address a few things. (This got long so I’m putting in a cut) 

Keep reading

[lavenderstobins]

this is so unbelievably stupid

[cloverstellar]

a couple byler magma doodles bc why not

[mileven11forever]

Mike and Eleven didn't work out their issues in s4, though? They never actually resolved anything.

Yes they did. Mike had his beautiful monologue to El, telling her how he feels. They talked a bit on the trip back to Hawkins about Brenner and stuff. They were on good terms at the end of the season, resolving the main issue they had earlier in the season that was clearly shown in their fight, Mike finally said he loved her.

[mileven11forever]

Yes, this is so true.

Okay, but

Why in hell are there so many people that continuously claim that El needs to be single in order to be independent and become the person she's meant to be? Single and independent are not synonyms. Independent does not mean alone. That's not how it works. They're not interchangeable. You don't need one in order to have the other.

No matter who you do and don't ship, my point still stands. There's so many people that have said it. And among those people, there's so many that claim she needs to be single in order to be herself, to be independent, and use that as their excuse for thinking El and Mike need to breakup, but then go and say that Mike and Will can get together afterwards. Or that El and Max can get together afterwards. If someone needs to be single in order to be independent, does that make everyone else who is in a relationship dependent? Not their own person? Hell no.

And I've also seen so many people claim that El takes after Mike. That Mike is always pushing his likes and interests on habits onto El. That he doesn't let her be her own person and that's what makes their relationship so "bad". That's what makes them have so many issues. Especially in season 3. But no, it's the opposite. They had so many issues in season 3 because El is independent. Because they are two different people. If El wasn't her own independent person, she wouldn't of gone to Max. She wouldn't of followed Max's lead and broken up with Mike. She wouldn't of gone on this whole journey of discovering new parts of herself and as well as exploring all of her relationships with people and then also returning to her relationship with Mike of her own free will and choice if she was not an independent person. If El was solely dependent on Mike and her personality and existence was based on Mike's specifically without her making any of her own choices, she would never have broken up with him in the first place. And in season 4, she wouldn't of argued with him so much.

Mike and El have their issues because they are both 2 different, very independent people who are also both very much teenagers and very much human. But everytime they've had an issue, they've worked through it, just like two people who are in a relationship and want to stay in that relationship do. Some people say that at the end of season 4, they're at their weakest point in their relationship. But no, it's the opposite, they're actually at their strongest. Why would it show them cuddled up together in the hospital while visiting Max if they were still having issues? It's been made plenty clear that if El is mad at Mike, she doesn't want to be around him, so she would definitely not be leaning against his shoulder and holding onto him if she was still upset with him, no matter what was going on around them at the time.

So I've said it before, I'm saying it now, and I will continue to say it in the future. Mike and El are both independent people, even while together. El does not need to breakup with Mike in order to be her own person or to be independent. That is not how it works. Mike and El can both be their own person while also being together. They both are their own person while being together. Just because that person isn't who you personally want them to be, doesn't mean that they aren't their own person or that they need to change some part of them or their life in order for things to be "solved". And El especially does not have to have some "I don't need a man" mentality and lifestyle in order to be her own, usual, badass and awesome self. She's already badass and independent and awesome and incredible and intelligent and unique whether she's in a relationship with Mike or not. Her relationship status does not decide her personality and character and it never has and it never will.

[beep-beep-robin]

look at them look at them look at theeeem

(in a non-mileven way)

(also may i point out the „hell on earth“ on that sweater)

[kidovna]

the full senior promic!🍀

bonus:

[thewisewill80sbyers]

these 3 are in charge of saving the world next season

[justablogger234]

I love this post and I completely agree with it. I think people really underestimate the influence and importance of El in mike and hoppers lives. Like I think people just don't understand just how important she is to both of them (though in different ways of course) and just how much they both love her. To hopper she's his youngest, and his baby girl (last of us fans know the importance of that word) she's also his second chance at being a father and that motivates him to not mess it up and protect her with all he's got. With mike, she's his lucky penny, she's his best person, the person who will always love him unconditionally and more than anything (besides his mother hehe), she will never intentionally leave him, she will always protect him and always be there for him and assure him that he is more than what people think and show him that he's not just some nerd. El gives hopper another chance at being a father, El gives mike the rare opportunity and chance at true unconditional love in their youngest years that will last forever.

Hopper may be els superhero, but to mike and hopper, she is theirs. She is the real superhero. She is their guiding light, that they can't live without. Their everything. And she's the reason why they can still see the light at the end of the tunnel. She is their motivation. She shows them that there are still good things in life. She shows hopper that he isn't entirely broken and that he can be a father again, she shows mike that he can love and be loved to the fullest extent.

Sorry for the ramble I just really love this post.

"I've been stuck in one place. A cave you might say, a deep dark cave. And then I left some eggos out in the woods and you came into my life. For the first time in a long time, I started to feel things again. I started to feel happy."

Each other's saviours. The light that entered through the wounds they had for a long time. The wound of not being loved, enough or at all, unconditionally.

[igotthejob]

this is every fanfic i read