#banites: ....ok what did he do

[maegalkarven]

I love how in the Empty Prayers AU banites just straight up pack things and leave.

I'd thought of giving Gortash a Big Confrontation with his cult and his god, but I've decided it's actually worse if he's just simply left behind. Left on Read. Given the Ultimate Silent Treatment.

He has failed Bane, so he isn't even worth the god's single thought now. Of course he will be punished upon death, but in life the worst punishment he can get is being treated like nothing. Like he isn't even here, like he never existed in the first place.

I'm sure I'd drive him mad to be completely ignored by the god he followed and the cult he lead. Lord Gortash who? Idk him

[animentality]

You ever think about how the fandom will go nuts trying to explain how Astarion is ~basically~ an elven child and how he’s absolved of all guilt for everything he’s done by the abuse he endured and yet… on the other hand we also have Gortash, who very literally was a child when sold to the hells and put through who knows what manner of abuse, saw who knows what messed up shit, who has had chances to do better, yes, but has also had to fight to survive and be more than just a beggar on the streets once he escaped. And he’s the totally evil and irredeemable one according to most fans. I’m not trying to woobify him btw, it’s just always interesting how every other character gets defended on the basis of “but cult conditioning/abuse/etc” but Gortash is uniquely the worst man alive. Which he is, but also. Cmon. Astarion has a long list of innocent victims and is a razors edge away from becoming the next cazador in any given play through and yet he’s a perfect uwu angel apparently. This isn’t about saying Gortash isn’t evil, this is about saying he’s not drastically more evil than a lot of other nuanced characters in this game who get defended by the fandom masses.

ANON if I could kiss you, I would commit tax evasion with you.

THIS.

Like I know Gortash is awful, but so is fucking everyone.

Shadowheart can become a Dark Justiciar and do awful things for Shar. Lae'zel and the githyanki are a bunch of pricks who kill their own kids for showing weakness and kill innocent people all the goddamn time. Minthara obviously slaughters a bunch of innocent refugees, if you allow her to, and as a drow, probably committed a cavalcade of evil actions.

Gale's blind ambition could've nuked a fucking town. He might not have intended to become a living bomb, but he did, and by running around Faerun, he WAS putting literally everyone within like five miles of him in mortal danger. Wyll would've killed Karlach if you weren't there, and he expresses this horror, because he has definitely killed innocents for Mizora before.

Astarion would've gladly become Cazador 2.0, if you didn't stop him. He might've started out ok, but he would descend into that same evil, using you until there was nothing left of you, and treating others the way he was treated, because he sees himself as a god now.

Even fucking Karlach...who is a sweetie, and god I love her...well fuck, didn't Gortash accuse her of knowing just how shady his shit was? She was a desperate kid, yes, and he definitely took advantage of her, but he explicitly calls her out for working for him, even though she knew he was shady (if not a Banite). Plus she was his bodyguard for years. As if your bodyguard wouldn't know you were being a peace of shit?

The WHOLE POINT of Baldur's Gate 3 is that you and your companions are defined by your choices.

The option EXISTS to SAVE THESE PEOPLE.

THERE IS NO OPTION TO SAVE GORTASH.

The game gives you the option of seeing him die one way or the other way.

I'm just SAYING it's not totally fair to act as if Gortash is truly irredeemable, when out of all the villains, he at least had an idea of a better world, even if it was still self serving and frankly awful.

He was slightly better than the Dark Urge, and they GET the choice of redeeming themselves.

He never does. And maybe he wouldn't have taken it, but that's really not the point.

You hit the nail on the head, bud.

Gortash is evil, no doubt, this is true, he is not just a victim of circumstances, he made every wrong decision he could've made...

But the fandom has no problem woobifying Astarion even though that scene with Sebastian is fucking soul wrenching.

They raise their hackles at Gortash, as though he's been alive for 200 years and lured thousands to their deaths/vampirism, and they forget that Lae'zel is absolutely awful, and approves every time you murder children in front of her.

And Shadowheart spent her childhood learning to torture people.

You can say well their crimes aren't equivalent- and yes, that is true, HOWEVER.

Remember that you have met them when they were powerless.

If given power...if they had never been mindcontrolled by parasites...well shit, they might've fucking killed you.

They might've become tyrants themselves. I know it's purely conjecture on my part, I just kinda...I don't even necessarily want a redeemed Gortash storyline.

I'm fine with him just being a villain!

I just also have a working brain that doesn't understand the reflexive urge to say, he couldn't redeem himself if he tried.

I think, in this fictional world of course, that redemption should be possible. I think if they are honestly trying, and they repay the debts they incurred, then it might be justified.

But we didn't get that choice, and neither did he, and honestly, with what the game presents...I can whole heartedly say no, he wouldn't have redeemed himself. Even if he could, he would not have done it.

But the possibility does exist.

Trying to deny it makes you look like a hypocrite as you insist Ascended Astarion is still an uwu baby.

Like nah, sweetie. Good luck with that.

[the0verboss]

4 and 9 for the durgetash asks?

Omg ok these are gonna be long cause I have A LOT of thoughts

4) Did the Banite and Bhaalist cultural exchange really happen and what did it look like?

Yes. A lot of HCs have Gortash being the one who sought out Durge. But Achaia was the one who went to find this new Bane cult as soon as he heard about it. The beginning of the exchange happens at their first meeting, where Achaia sneaks into the Flymm's Cargo warehouse to observe a Bane and Loviatar joint ritual and falls ass over teacup while watching Gortash lead the ritual. He's commanding and powerful (and oh no dad, he's hot) and he works a scourge like he was born to it. This unknown, this mere mortal man, who speaks like he's Bane's own son (he must be chosen but jokes on you Achaia he isn't, not yet). By the time Gortash and the Loviatan priestess are ready to sacrifice some random flaming fist Achaia's Urge has him wanting to eat the whole congregation. Also he can't help but imagine how he and Gortash might do a joint human sacrifice but of course daddy Bhaal wouldn't have that so he puts it out of his mind.

The second cultural exchange is of course the raid on the House of wonders. Gortash and Achaia have come to an understanding as heads of their orders and fair play Gortash tells him about the Bhaalist artifacts, but also he has his own motivations for wanting to raid the place. It's the first time he sees Achaia take the Slayer form to show off, the Chosen of Bhaal making meat of the guards. He himself isn't yet Chosen. He ends up wounded and Achaia whisks him away to a Bhaalist safe house and uses his medical knowledge to stitch him up, an excuse to get Gortash's blood on his hands. They spend the evening discussing various pieces of doctrine. But this is the beginning of Gortash's more than professional interest in Achaia. Because the man demonstrates that's he's more than just a butcher.

The next exchange is at a wake for the late Lord Hhune. It's a massacre, Gortash needing to remove some political and economic barriers and Achaia happy to lend his Bhaalists to the cause as thanks for Gortash's foresight and friendship where the house of wonders was concerned. Coincidentally it's also when they become lovers the first time, and the first time Gortash meets Sceleritas Fel and Orin the Red. The Bhaalists handle most of the family, but Achaia and Gortash exchange philosophical points over the crib of the infant son of the late Lord before Gortash murder's the child with a poisoned pacifier to make his point and also to show Achaia he's as nasty a piece of work as the Bhaalspawn. It makes Achaia hot and he tries to kill the man over it (I actually did write this whole plot in case you want to read it)

From then on they meet more regularly, the two of them sharing ideas and time and plotting

Which brings us to our next question

9) the Steelwatch Foundry. Did they ever visit it together, what was it like? How many people died afterwards and how many of them were Banite's?

I like to think Gortash had more than just the foundry for his weapons production. That is to say Achaia is there when his operation takes control of the foundry, AFTER being named Chosen and he can really start to amplify his weapon production now that he's enslaved a healthy workforce and had time politically to remove his rivals.

Achaia doesn't visit the foundry much, that's a show piece, though he is there when they really start getting the tadpoles and brains together for the Steelwatch. But it isn't the side of Gortash's operation he likes best.

Flymm's Cargo Warehouse however. I personally love the idea that a good portion of Gortash's early operation and experiments happen there. The psychology of him hiding his dirtiest most reprehensible pieces under his old name, leaving the name of Gortash only his virtues. Gortash is power and progress and production. Flymm is the suffering to get there. There can be failure under Flymm and failing is part of progress. 2000 ways not to make a lightbulb. Achaia visits the warehouse a lot. He loves Gortash's experiments. Especially the ones that involve children. His Bhaalspawn breeding imperative and his desire for a family that will love and care for him(be able to survive him) get all tangled up with his Urge, So any time Achaia has been through Gortash has to make a new trip to the fricken orphanage for new test subjects.

Though there is the notable ritual celebrating the success of their heist of the Crown. The Banite's and the Bhaalists are set to hunting each other through the foundry, to reach the altar in the basement. those left standing becoming the Chosen's honor guards and trusted operatives. Orin gets more than a few Banite heads and it does seem to help her fall in line. Spaulder would be a notable Bhaalist and he gets a few. Consul Nuff would be a notable Banite who made it through that gauntlet (heh). At the zenith of the ritual Achaia finally gets his wish and he and Gortash sacrifice the patriar who had had turned control of the Foundry over to Gortash as part of the binding pact between Bane and Bhaal, and their commitment to take control of Baldur's Gate.