#bc fandom equates sexuality with morality and coolness

[sebastianshaw]

When you see someone call Shaw straight

[abri-chan]

So a thing I noticed is that there are probably different mental lists for characters in a show, but people confuse them at large, and that causes drama.

For example, likeability is different from fuckabality: a character you like or find cool may not be the same character you find romantically or sexually attractive. Similarly, and this is where the "problematic" aspect starts, a character you like does not equate a character whose morality you admire. Not always.

I feel that's when fandom gets confused bc they assume a favorite is in all of the lists, but really only OP knows what mental category they place the said character in. Hence why you can't extrapolate to what the fans of a character really think or do irl.

[dragonbearer]

Incest, Legally and Socially (there’s a difference)

Some intense thoughts on incest, its legalities, and what it means in real life with @breakiitdown​. It’s been an absolute pleasure working this out with you and I feel pretty damn good about this whole discussion. Tons of respect for you for being willing to discuss this with me and holding my hand when I got stuck. This’ll be going into my overall discourse folder.

Some editing done for clarity’s sake. Be warned: it’s LONG (2300 words of chat)

breakiitdown

Can I ask, do u support incest irl? cause I’ve been seeing a lot of arguments for shimadacest saying since it’s not legal in japan it's alright to ship it, though most people are uncomfortable on explaining if they believe it should be legal or not

dragonbearer

If it's between two consenting adults, I don't see a reason why I should intrude on their personal business.

But if it's between people with a severe power differential, then no.

I would still be a little squicked irl but I wouldn't really have a position either way.

 breakiitdown

ye like tbh I see incest between cousins as something that probably wouldn't be that bad but between siblings its often difficult since they’ve had to grow up together and social conditioning can start at such a young age and what not but

dragonbearer

The sibling incest part is sticky for me imo

dragonbearer

But all the parts of incest that are bad - force, rape, molestation - would be bad between any two people anyway

Incest on its own isn't necessarily a bad thing - just what it can be accompanied by

breakiitdown

yeah that’s why ppl don't like when adopted people get together either generally speaking cause of the growing up thing and the slow social conditioning that would/could occur even from smaller or seemingly innocent acts that could manipulate someone into liking them,,

That’s why in general the idea of incest to me isn’t?? Bad per se but

dragonbearer

You mean grooming?

breakiitdown

Like if two ppl were separated @ birth then fell in love and happened to be siblings it would be fine but I think the thing of growing up together

YEAH

I knew there was a word for it I just forgot it

dragonbearer

True, but I think grooming falls into power differential too

Which is a bad thing in any relationship

dragonbearer

I mean - it's unlikely

Incest between two siblings that's completely healthy and consensual

Very, very unlikely if they grow up together

But intellectually, in that case, then I can't see a viable reason it would be wrong

dragonbearer

and since I can set the terms of a fictional ship in any way I want, I can just be like "ok but in THIS au what if the incest was perfectly healthy and happy"

And 3 years, imo, for siblings isn't that big of a difference

Ofc genzo still has its issues, but I write it for that reason, not bc I want to make something happy and healthy

breakiitdown

ye I feel that just recently seeing all the arguing that incest should be fine instead of saying "it's fictional and who cares" has been... hmMMm

dragonbearer

I'm arguing against the concept that incest itself is a bad thing

It feels like trying to say sex is bad bc ppl can be raped to me

dragonbearer

Incest =/= abuse

breakiitdown

I mean I think in general incest between two people who grow up together will probably end up in a unhealthy way but there's a few cases where that’s not true

dragonbearer

bc the whole "attack the shippers" thing starts with slandering the basic morality of ppl for shipping something incestuous

Not for anything else - just the incest

bc if u start attacking unhealthy dynamics in a ship, practically any ship in the fandom is under fire

breakiitdown

But in your rules you also say you don’t support incest irl

dragonbearer

As in, I don't endorse it happening

I wouldn't tell ppl "yo it’s okay if u kiss your sis"

But

I don't like blanket statements

dragonbearer

And something like "I don't generally support real-life incest but if you're happy, healthy, and consensual then it's your life and I hope you find yourself satisfied with your choices because I want people to be happy" is a bit long

I realize in real life, incest is *usually* unhealthy

Not always, but usually

But I won't vilify people for committing incest, I will vilify them for whatever crime they committed

Am I making sense?

breakiitdown

ye but I think its ok to say that in most cases incest esp. in cases where they've grown up with each other is normally abusive just like in most cases you'd consider physical attacks abusive even if that's not always the case

dragonbearer

Yeah

I said that

breakiitdown

but you said you didn’t think it was abusive I mean I think its chill to call incest as a whole an abusive thing as an idea and in most cases, but that doesn’t mean all cases are actually abusive

dragonbearer

I’m confused now

breakiitdown

Like the exception not the rule

Ye me 2 tbh like u don’t think incest is abusive except for most of the time?

Not even like u specifically I’ve just seen this argument before and never really understood it either

dragonbearer

Let me try to equate it to something else

For example

Relationship between a subordinate and their superior

This is discouraged in most places of employment bc of how it can be abused

But that doesn't mean that every and each case of it is abusive and thus should not be treated as such

I see the topic of incest in the same basic guideline

It can and has been abused, many cases where it happened is abusive

dragonbearer

But that doesn't mean incest IS abuse automatically

breakiitdown

ye but people still call that general act abuse like if someone told me they were in a happy consenting relationship in either of those that'd be cool but I don’t think the whole act should be rewritten to someone that’s not abusive because of the few cases

dragonbearer

Well, a lot of legislators agree with you, which is why incest is illegal in some places

But in others, they don't

And the question is "why should incest be illegal?"

And you know, a lot of the abusive potentials are brought out

But that's already illegal anyway

Child abuse, statutory rape, sexual molestation, etc. etc. is illegal in most countries

Which can cover the cases of incestuous abuse adequately imo

But making incest illegal catches those few ppl who ARE non-offending and places them under legal scrutiny

dragonbearer

Grooming is already considered child abuse anyway, and we all understand why harming a person in that form is bad

But if we were to illegalize incest, there needs to be a reason

And when prompted for a reason for why incest, not abuse, JUST INCEST is bad, ppl trip up on the question

The article I linked on that post explains the concept p well

breakiitdown

ye like I agree that it should be legal and everything but I also don't think it’s necessary for people to say that incest as a whole is non abusive cause even with the boss and student thing it’s something that’s generally not allowed but not illegal because people consider that dynamic is abusive but that doesn’t mean every relationship holds abuse within it

dragonbearer

I prefer to say that incest on its own isn't abusive, but can and usually leads to abuse

Which, to me, is an important differentiation

I grew up debating and that kind of wording is super important bc they change how situations can be taken

I think you mean that I think incest is non-abusive

I think the concept of incest is, but not the practice of it

dragonbearer

On its own, cut off from any other concept, it's simply not harmful

But reality is complicated and tangled, which is why incest is rarely on its own

And thus is usually harmful

breakiitdown

tbh I’m confused like incestuous relationships that involve living and growing up together normally lead to aspects in a relationship that are abusive but it’s wrong to generalize incest relationships as abusive? If that’s what u mean?

dragonbearer

Yes

That is exactly what I mean :D

breakiitdown

I still feel like that’s making the exception the rule for all incest relationships like I get that some incest relationships can work out but when referring to incest as something that’s abusive is that like ?? Bad 2 do

dragonbearer

bc

It’s not the incest itself that is abusive

I mean

dragonbearer

If an older man groomed his daughter and sexually abused her, that's a crime

If an older man groomed his neighbor's daughter and sexually abused her, it's still a crime

One is incestuous, one is not

But the basic crime is the same - abuse

breakiitdown

But that situation still happens very regularly with siblings since when they're both kids and one starts to feel sexual attraction they could still groom them into thinking that sex is normal between the two of them since they live and grow up together it's not always like the power imbalance between them

dragonbearer

Ahhhh okay

So it's like

One party convinces the other party to engage in something despite reluctance, right?

Or generally leverages them into it, somehow

dragonbearer

That’d be coercion

dragonbearer

Resulting in dubious consent

breakiitdown

yeah like that normally doesn’t really need 2 include a power balance in order to work cause I know in that situation it’s a good example but for family relationships it’s sort of more common since it's something that’s not escapable and constant

but I mean if they live together it could just start as small things that may be considered platonic that then lead into more sexual things that the person who is interested tells them it's normal and that’s just what families do and they believe them because over a period of time that's what they've been shown

dragonbearer

Man, I hope no one checks my google history bc the amount of research I'm doing on the topic is getting higher and higher

dragonbearer

http://www.pandys.org/articles/siblingsexualabuse.html

This is pretty good

Apparently

Child psychology studies say that

Incestuous actions between siblings/cousins/whatever is pretty common

"Sexual behavior between siblings that is not age appropriate, not transitory, and not motivated by developmentally, mutually appropriate curiosity" and studies have defined the dynamic u described as such

So it's still a form of abuse, regardless of actual power

breakiitdown

Ye like that’s the only reason why I don’t believe incest is always wrong is because those situations don't involve influence over someone when they're a child n what not in most cases

dragonbearer

So ye, that's p much all I have on the topic

Does this explain my thoughts adequately?

breakiitdown

idk like I get that cousin relationships and what not are in general not abusive but I’m still sort of confused on why you don’t consider sibling relationships in general abusive

Like I still know there’s exceptions to all but is it just because u don’t want to like let the few think that their relationship is bad

dragonbearer

bc I object to the idea of blanket statements

As in, saying that every case of sibling incest is bad, abusive, and should be illegal

breakiitdown

Isn’t saying incest isn’t abusive a blanket statement as well

dragonbearer

Which is why I said incest isn't abusive unless ________

Just imagine like a big list

With a ton of different sections of cases where it IS bad

cutting away all the abusive parts until the few non-abusive cases are left

Incest does not mean Abuse

a.       Unless ______

a.       In situation X

                                                                          i.      Example A:

breakiitdown

I mean I don’t think it should be illegal but the general concept of incest and what it holds is abusive just like w the teacher student thing it’s not illegal but a lot of people consider the general concept of it as a teacher abusing his power over a student even if that isn’t the case in 100% of cases all of the time

breakiitdown

Wait is it illegal I don’t even know I just assumed it wasn’t because that’s lame

dragonbearer

But the thing is

breakiitdown

Ye but ppl still feel comfortable calling that abuse like

dragonbearer

It depends on the country

some places it is, some places it isn't

But I protest against "most people think"

bc a lot of that comes from this knee-jerk GROSS reaction

breakiitdown

Ye I’m just crediting the TV shows and movies I watch I don’t have a source lmao

dragonbearer

A lot of the "this is how things are naturally" and "society says so"

I mean, not to equate lgbt ppl with incest but

Once upon a time

Being homosexual was a horrible abomination against humanity and you can tell what I thought about that, being bi myself

dragonbearer

So I don't think about what most people think, because most people work off their initial, society ingrained rules

And not look deeper into the whole concept of why something is morally wrong besides the first feeling of disgust

breakiitdown

I mean I don’t think we should say incest relationships are horrible abominations against humanity but I still think it’s reasonable to tell people using your position as a family member to initiate relationships within your household is abusive

like I don’t think it’s disgusting but @ the same time I don’t think ppl should be encouraging ppl saying it’s not abusive if u want to convince your kid to kiss u like,,,,,

That’s why it’s so hard to have relationships in families because there’s a certain position of power u have regardless if u want it or not as an older brother or father or sister or whatever

dragonbearer

I get u

But I think I got where we're divided now

Legally, I think it's better to say incest isn't abuse UNLESS certain conditions are met - in a legal case, innocent until proven guilty is paramount ESPECIALLY when judging a incest case (as opposed to a case of abuse)

But socially, it's better to say incest is abusive UNLESS certain conditions are met - because socially, just staying away from incest is for the best and the criterion of healthy incest is incredibly narrow

breakiitdown

YEE

dragonbearer

*high five*

I feel like I made a breakthrough