#been reading affc and spiraling

[aregebidan]

water dance (ID in alt)

[janiedean]

hey, can you talk about this: why is it that even after jaime saves brienne from rape & jumps into a bearpit for her, brienne still expects the worst from him and thinks he wants her to kill sansa? can b ever fully trust and love jaime? will brienne ever accept that jaime loves her and is capable of good or will she always expect evil from him/ be insecure + expect him to pull a ronnet? i think this will cause problems for them if they ever get together. do you think it would be a deal-breaker?

tldr: no because the moment you read her affc povs you see she’s way past her initial distrust and actually that scene is... the turning point? like you don’t know that because you don’t have her pov, but anyway I think I’ll just break it down and be done with it since I had wanted to for a while - regardless, premise: you can see exactly how far she goes with trusting him/changing her mind about him by seeing her dialogue choices in asos before, as in, she calls him ser for the first time after he saves her from being raped and when they’re in the bath she snaps at him the moment he goads her about renly and she’s naked in front of a man and she feels most likely guilty for the loss of his hand, and the moment he faints she catches him and she volunteers to dress him/clean him up after, like... you don’t do that if you don’t want to and if you don’t care about the person some regardless. ANYWAY SO let me just find the whole scene.

SOOOO, counting that he’s doing this just after he basically broke up with cersei...

The wench looked as ugly and awkward as ever, he decided when Tyrell left them. Someone had dressed her in woman’s clothes again, but this dress fit much better than that hideous pink rag the goat had made her wear. “Blue is a good color on you, my lady,” Jaime observed. “It goes well with your eyes.” She does have astonishing eyes.

Brienne glanced down at herself, flustered. “Septa Donyse padded out the bodice, to give it that shape. She said you sent her to me.” She lingered by the door, as if she meant to flee at any second. “You look . . .”

“Different?” He managed a half-smile. “More meat on the ribs and fewer lice in my hair, that’s all. The stump’s the same. Close the door and come here.” She did as he bid her. “The white cloak . . .”

“. . . is new, but I’m sure I’ll soil it soon enough.”

“That wasn’t . . . I was about to say that it becomes you.”

right, so, when this entire scene starts you have the worst flirting that ever existed but like basically that’s pretty much what it is - they haven’t seen each other in a while right, and first he goes like UH UGLY AND AWKWARD, then in the span of three lines he decides that the dress looks nice on her and it fits her, and when he opens his mouth he calls her my lady and compliments her on her appearance and her eyes and then thinks SHE HAS ASTONISHING EYES which like... jaime you were thinking she was ugly three lines ago where is the truth, the truth is that he’s hella attracted to her, he’s not admitting it to himself but he can’t help saying it and so hey hello brienne, you just showed up in my room where I summoned you after having you freed and I’m telling you you’re hot!! when you never heard it before from a guy ever!!!

brienne at that point is FLUSTERED and feels like pointing out the bodice is padded as if he hasn’t seen her naked, and she’s obviously afraid af because she’s standing near the door, and then she goes like ‘you look...’ while most likely STARING at him like OH MY GOD HAVEN’T SEEN HIM IN WEEKS LOOK AT HIM jesus, and then he starts going off with the self-deprecating humor telling her to get over here, she does, she starts again with the white cloak, he goes all defensive self-deprecating again (I’ll soil it soon enough, presuming that she still thinks that of him)... and then she goes like I was about to say it becomes you, which means I’m telling you A WHITE CLOAK FITS YOU AND IS BECOMING ON YOU, which given the significancy of the white cloak/kg/the fact that he confessed her he believed in his vow/knighthood when he was fifteen in the bath... she’s telling him being honorable becomes him, which sorry but does not to me qualify as ‘expecting the worse of him’. now:

She came closer, hesitant. “Jaime, did you mean what you told Ser Loras? About . . . about King Renly, and the shadow?”

Jaime shrugged. “I would have killed Renly myself if we’d met in battle, what do I care who cut his throat?”

“You said I had honor . . .”

“I’m the bloody Kingslayer, remember? When I say you have honor, that’s like a whore vouchsafing your maidenhood.” He leaned back and looked up at her. 

problem is: he is on the self-deprecative spiral wanting to distance himself, which I have a feeling is because he’s a) upset because of cersei from before b) not exactly processing his feelings re being into her, so everything she is saying he’s shutting her down, which makes her hesitant - first he shrugs away having gotten her out of prison and talking for her to loras when if you read that part you know he cares about getting her out, she’s all like oh YOU SAID I HAD HONOR!!! **, and he immediately shuts that down too with the it’s worth nothing if I do, so basically she’s there all ‘!!! ** !!!’ and he’s back to shutting her out, which... considering how brienne is would make her lose a lot of courage here, right? right. also: SHE CALLED HIM JAIME in the beginning, which means... she feels like they’re on a familiar enough level that she can use his name without the ser before and she’s not calling him kingslayer. like. she’s absolutely expecting the best here.

“Steelshanks is on his way back north, to deliver Arya Stark to Roose Bolton.”

“You gave her to him?” she cried, dismayed. “You swore an oath to Lady Catelyn . . .”

“With a sword at my throat, but never mind. Lady Catelyn’s dead. I could not give her back her daughters even if I had them. And the girl my father sent with Steelshanks was not Arya Stark.”

“Not Arya Stark?”

“You heard me. My lord father found some skinny northern girl more or less the same age with more or less the same coloring. He dressed her up in white and grey, gave her a silver wolf to pin her cloak, and sent her off to wed Bolton’s bastard.” He lifted his stump to point at her. “I wanted to tell you that before you went galloping off to rescue her and got yourself killed for no good purpose. You’re not half bad with a sword, but you’re not good enough to take on two hundred men by yourself.”

now, for the chapter where grrm knows that words mean things: the definition of dismayed is : experiencing or showing feelings of alarmed concern or dismay : upset, worried, or agitated because of some unwelcome situation or occurrence, which means that the moment jaime goes like ‘oh and I gave arya to roose bolton’ she is UPSET at hearing that... because she didn’t expect that? she changed her mind, she thinks he’s honorable, he saved her from being raped, he’s complimenting her, she’s trying to compliment him, she thinks they have an understanding, he told her all of that...... and now he’s telling her he gave arya back to the boltons? when she thought he cared about their oath and he freed her? like what the fuck jaime? obviouly she’s upset, but because she already expected better and he’s a disaster emotionally stunted person who just moved on from 17yo of emotional maturity and he can’t have that conversation without going in self-defense. he points out he can’t do that but anyway then tells her it’s not arya.. because he didn’t want brienne to go after her ie he cared about her well-being and now he throws in a compliment too (you’re not half bad with a sword) and she’s most likely like wtf, also he gestures at her with the stump which cersei refused to interact with before and brienne doesn’t even flinch at that, but never mind let’s go on.

Brienne shook her head. “When Lord Bolton learns that your father paid him with false coin . . .”

“Oh, he knows. Lannisters lie, remember? It makes no matter, this girl serves his purpose just as well. Who is going to say that she isn’t Arya Stark? Everyone the girl was close to is dead except for her sister, who has disappeared.”

“Why would you tell me all this, if it’s true? You are betraying your father’s secrets.”

The Hand’s secrets, he thought. I no longer have a father. “I pay my debts like every good little lion. I did promise Lady Stark her daughters . . . and one of them is still alive. My brother may know where she is, but if so he isn’t saying. Cersei is convinced that Sansa helped him murder Joffrey.”

“The wench’s mouth got stubborn. “I will not believe that gentle girl a poisoner. Lady Catelyn said that she had a loving heart. It was your brother. There was a trial, Ser Loras said.”

as stated: she shakes her head, which is a thing you do... when you’ve just been given conflicting information, which he just did because he just told her HEY MY FATHER JUST BASICALLY LIED TO HIS ALLY, but poor girl is not a political shrewd mind because a moment later he explains her that they both knew and so on, and at that point brienne is understandably like WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS IT’S TREASON, which it technically is.... and then he remembers tywin disowned him and they argued so ‘I no longer have a father’, but he doesn’t tell brienne that, goes back to self-defensive, goes like ‘well I’m a good lion and I pay my debts’ and then only mentions what his brother and sister think, counting that brienne doesn’t know tyrion and know what he does about cersei... that might make her think that he’s taking their side, and now she is getting defensive pointing out it couldn’t be sansa and so on, but like... he basically has given her conflicted reactions, now she’s back on the defensive... as she generally is unless it’s with someone she trusts.

“Two trials, actually. Words and swords both failed him. A bloody mess. Did you watch from your window?”

“My cell faces the sea. I heard the shouting, though.”

“Prince Oberyn of Dorne is dead, Ser Gregor Clegane lies dying, and Tyrion stands condemned before the eyes of gods and men. They’re keeping him in a black cell till they kill him.”

Brienne looked at him. “You do not believe he did it.”

Jaime gave her a hard smile. “See, wench? We know each other too well. Tyrion’s wanted to be me since he took his first step, but he’d never follow me in kingslaying. Sansa Stark killed Joffrey. My brother’s kept silent to protect her. He gets these fits of gallantry from time to time. The last one cost him a nose. This time it will mean his head.”

now they discuss the trials blah blah blah, and brienne figures out he doesn’t believe tyrion did it just from the tone/the way he says it - because the facts are kind of straight, so it must be the tone of voice, and then what does he says as he gives her a *hard smile*? that they know each other too well. and then he goes and says a bunch of stuff that’s not true (sansa killed joffrey, tyrion kept silent), goading her again...

“No,” Brienne said. “It was not my lady’s daughter. It could not have been her.”

“There’s the stubborn stupid wench that I remember.”

“She reddened. “My name is . . .”

“Brienne of Tarth.” Jaime sighed. “I have a gift for you.” He reached down under the Lord Commander’s chair and brought it out, wrapped in folds of crimson velvet.

Brienne approached as if the bundle was like to bite her, reached out a huge freckled hand, and flipped back a fold of cloth. Rubies glimmered in the light. She picked the treasure up gingerly, curled her fingers around the leather grip, and slowly slid the sword free of its scabbard. Blood and black the ripples shone. A finger of reflected light ran red along the edge. “Is this Valyrian steel? I have never seen such colors.”

“Nor I. There was a time that I would have given my right hand to wield a sword like that. Now it appears I have, so the blade is wasted on me. Take it.” Before she could think to refuse, he went on. “A sword so fine must bear a name. It would please me if you would call this one Oathkeeper. One more thing. The blade comes with a price.”

... at which brienne absolutely falls for it and protests but then he goes like ‘oh there you are’, so he was most likely either testing her or pushing her to say it again/assure himself of what he was doing, but for her... it’d be even more confusing. she blushes when he calls her wench, and then when he says he has a gift she’s scared af until she sees what it is, and when she asks what it is first he does the self-deprecation thing again, then says he wants it named oathkeeper, so far so good... and then says it comes with a price, which makes it sound like she has to do something in return to have it, and how would that sound to her after this entire conversation when he hasn’t told her that he’s cut off ties with anyone but tyrion and he’s been basically hostile/sarcastic/has rebuked all her compliments?

Her face darkened. “I told you, I will never serve . . .”

“. . . such foul creatures as us. Yes, I recall. Hear me out, Brienne. Both of us swore oaths concerning Sansa Stark. Cersei means to see that the girl is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground . . .”

Brienne’s homely face twisted in fury. “If you believe that I would harm my lady’s daughter for a sword, you—”

“Just listen,” he snapped, angered by her assumption. “I want you to find Sansa first, and get her somewhere safe. How else are the two of us going to make good our stupid vows to your precious dead Lady Catelyn?”

The wench blinked. “I . . . I thought . . .”

now here’s the point but like... she assumes he wanted her to do what cersei wanted when he hasn’t given her any other hint he might want to do otherwise throughout the exchange and basically never told her anything straight and she had come in all excited and wanting to compliment him and presuming the best, and then he gets angry because she assumed wrong... but what was she going to assume? then again: asos!jaime handles a lot of his interactions like an angry teenager because again he started moving on from it during this book and he has no idea of how to deal with her or that that kinda attitude would confuse the shit out of her and make her assume wrong things when she wasn’t assuming them to begin with, and when she immediately realizes he just wanted to keep the oath she goes back to OH, like... she was presuming they’d withhold it from the beginning when she mentioned it along with arya, so it’s her now knowing she was right and go like OH FUCK I FUCKED UP, but like... jaime baby ily but just tell her from the get go right? nah, I guess. buuut let’s go on.

“I know what you thought.” Suddenly Jaime was sick of the sight of her. She bleats like a bloody sheep. “When Ned Stark died, his greatsword was given to the King’s Justice,” he told her. “But my father felt that such a fine blade was wasted on a mere headsman. He gave Ser Ilyn a new sword, and had Ice melted down and reforged. There was enough metal for two new blades. You’re holding one. So you’ll be defending Ned Stark’s daughter with Ned Stark’s own steel, if that makes any difference to you.”

“Ser, I . . . I owe you an apolo . . .”

He cut her off. “Take the bloody sword and go, before I change my mind. There’s a bay mare in the stables, as homely as you are but somewhat better trained. Chase after Steelshanks, search for Sansa, or ride home to your isle of sapphires, it’s naught to me. I don’t want to look at you anymore.”

“Jaime . . .”

“Kingslayer,” he reminded her. “Best use that sword to clean the wax out of your ears, wench. We’re done.”

Stubbornly, she persisted. “Joffrey was your . . .”

now not that I don’t think that jaime wasn’t pushing her also in... outright denial of not wanting her to go, but: now he’s angry at her (when he technically got her angry when he could have not) and wants her to go and he’s telling her again in the sarcasticselfdefense tone and she immediately - immediately - tries to apologize, he shuts her off, doesn’t tell her that the mare is not homely at all, and tells her it’s naught to him when it’s all to him since she knows what his honor means to him, she goes from ‘ser’ (honorific) to ‘jaime’ (personal) and he goes back to ‘nah I’m the kingslayer see that’s all I’ll ever be leave’, except that... she doesn’t leave and she persists, stubbornly, because she actually wants to know, and presses asking about joffrey since she knows he was his father and is most likely still WTFFFFF HE’S BETRAYING HIS FAMILY...

“My king. Leave it at that.”

“You say Sansa killed him. Why protect her?”

Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt. And because he deserved to die. “I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.” Jaime smiled thinly. “Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?”

Her big hand wrapped tight around Oathkeeper. “I will. And I will find the girl and keep her safe. For her lady mother’s sake. And for yours.” She bowed stiffly, whirled, and went.

she expects him to say his son? he say ‘his king’ and LEAVE IT AT THAT, giving the idea he doesn’t care, and at that point she goes like okay so why would you protect the person you said killed him, fair question right, which I think on her side was... wanting to see what he’d reply because she’s realizing he won’t answer straight right, and exactly he thinks ‘joffrey deserved it and was nothing to me’ but doesn’t tell her that, he tells her that he made kings and unmade them, fair, and then that sansa is his last chance at honor, and smiles thinly (not hard like before), which suggests he’s visually being sincere, and it’s an answer brienne would get... and then he reminds her that he’s called a kingslayer and she is called one and neither of them actually were in the wrong but they both have bad fame for it and they should band together and pledge their oath, and... brienne gets it because she stops asking questions, takes the sword and goes, but instead of falling for his bait or be angry about being called a kingslayer, she says she’ll fulfill their oath and find sansa for catelyn’s sake and for his sake too, pointing out she’s swearing a vow to him too before she leaves after bowing, which basically seals it...

which means that she walked in with a good impression of him, he challenged it, then she realized it wasn’t wrong and he just was shit as communicating and she’s not... expecting the worse anymore? anytime she thinks of him in affc is as the honorable man who saved her and she swore a vow to and she wishes would be with her on her quest, not as someone she doesn’t trust. so, to go with your questions:

1) brienne still expects the worst from him and thinks he wants her to kill sansa?

as stated from the above: she doesn’t :)

2) can b ever fully trust and love jaime?

she was about to die for him at the end of affc, I think she already does X°D

3) will brienne ever accept that jaime loves her and is capable of good or will she always expect evil from him/ be insecure + expect him to pull a ronnet?

she’s already... not? I mean, accepting he loves her might be a problem because she doesn’t conceive he would as it is and it’d take a while for her to not be insecure, but that he’s capable of good she already does, and she’s way past expecting him to pull a ronnet XD she doesn’t even compare them once like... I don’t see how this would be a thing X°DD

4) i think this will cause problems for them if they ever get together. do you think it would be a deal-breaker?

I don’t because like... okay her being insecure might eventually but honestly she wanted to die for him anon and she was convinced of his good intentions the moment she walked into the room and then he threw her in for a loop and she came out of that even more convinced soooooo no I really don’t think it would XD

[disregardcanon]

you know, looking back on it there’s probably some interesting parallels between the style of theon’s paranoid spiral in acok and cersei’s paranoid spiral in affc and adwd. like it’s been a long ass time since i’ve read either of them, but thinking about it. there could be something cool there. 

[derkastellan]

BattleTech: The Star League - an exercise in advanced Fridge Logic

“I’ve considered “BattleTech: Star League” an all-time great sourcebook. It tells the origin story of the whole BattleTech universe up until the First Succession War. It also explains the full story behind General Kerensky’s Exodus, a major plot point repeatedly referred to in books, finally detailed. 

Back then when I got the book originally in the 90s I might not have really known that this was a setup to follow up with the Clan Invasion era of BattleTech. Or maybe I personally got it after that had already been launched. When it was released in 1988 the timeline shifted into the Fourth Succession War and there had been release referring to that mythical Star League.

Some books don’t fare as well when being re-read decades later, and “The Star League” is not an exception, though I have to admit I might be applying impossibly high standards...

Don’t think about it too hard

One talks of “fridge logic” when you set a piece of fiction aside, go to the fridge, and realize that the inner logic of the work does not quite add up. The point of fridge logic is that it is sufficiently convincing to keep you absorbing a piece of fiction but you might end up taking it apart later.

I’ve also been re-reading the Warrior Trilogy by Michael A. Stackpole and reminiscing about “Heir of the Dragon”. While Stackpole’s novels about the Fourth Succession War lay out a template for other BT novels, they also skew the setting heavily, completely upend its balance. “Heir to the Dragon” contrives as hard as it can to construe a War of 3039 that restore the setting balance long enough for it to persist until the events of 3050 - the Clan Invasion. In hindsight that book is full of fridge logic it seems unfair to call out “The Star League” but here I am.

It’s any author’s prerogative to time situations to maximize drama, to have events happen in a convenient way, to maximize the impact of a work of fiction. If there is too much of that with events happening all-too-convenient, we talk about a “deus ex machina.” The authors of “The Star League” (SL from now on) were trying hard to avoid that and to have a string of logical-seeming events follow like pearls on a chain. But when you look too close, it all comes apart...

Setting and world design can often become subservient to requirements of the plot. As I said, SL tries hard to avoid that, but it doesn’t quite accomplish it. The events I will focus on are the Periphery Uprising and the Amaris Coup (also names of chapter headings). These are part of the climax and are supposed to explain the downfall of the marvelous Star League itself.

What is needed?

The SL was the most advanced golden age of mankind, but the standard setting of BT in the 80s was an era of technological decline and petty scuffles. The challenge for the authors was to explain not only the rise of such a realm but describe its fall in a way that the downward spiral seems inevitable.

The original realm at the heart of human-occupied space, the Terran Hegemony, had to vanish through the course of events because the map of 3025 existed long before the map of 2781. For this to happen it was not enough to let a line of royal succession end, a whole realm had to collapse. Also, the end of the SL had already been blamed vaguely on treachery and so the story of that treachery had to be set up.

Furthermore, the fall from glory was a great opportunity for memorable drama, the end of a golden age, after all, and the preclude for centuries of war. 

There was only one problem: the SLDF.

The Star League Defense Forces were not only the most advanced but also basically the biggest fighting force in the BT history, led by brilliant General Kerensky. You cannot set that up and then hand-wave your way out of that setup. But the authors kind of did.

The basic plot points of the Periphery Uprising

The Periphery realms are exploited by the Inner Sphere lords and businesses for their own gain, resentment builds.

The ruler of the SL dies, orphaning his son. General Kerensky is named Protector of the Realm and the young lord his ward, but circumstances pretty much prevent the general from executing any of these duties.

Stefan Amaris, the leader of the Rim Worlds, conspires with other Periphery governments to ultimately achieve independence.

He befriends the future lord of the SL, a lonely minor and orphan. He proceeds to manipulate the young lord and gain influence over him.

A tense stand-off between the SLDF and Periphery rebels develops, including terrorism against the SLDF.

Suddenly 50 full mech divisions of fighting force appear that have been secretly built up and end up destroying almost as many divisions of SLDF forces scattered throughout the periphery. (There’s roughly 100 divisions of the SLDF in the periphery according to the book.) Where they cannot defeat the SLDF directly they drop prohibited nuclear bombs and move on.

[EDIT: To put this number into context: “ At its peak prior to the Clan Invasion, the AFFC represented the largest single military since General Aleksandr Kerensky took most of the Star League Defense Force beyond the Periphery, with over 268 BattleMech regiments.” (from: sarna.net) In the BT universe, according to the same source, a division is made up of 3 brigades, and a brigade of 3 regiments. Even if we assume that only 1 out of 3 brigades in a division is a mech brigade - after all a tank division does not consist entirely of tanks! - we still might be contemplating 150 mech regiments - a bit less than the Draconis Combine at the beginning of the First Succession War. Supposedly the Draconis Combine was involved in providing those mechs. Would they supply as many as they have themselves out of pure greed??]

Meanwhile Amaris’ Rim Worlds are suspiciously peaceful and the young lord calls in Amaris’ troups to protect the Hegemony as more and more troops of the SLDF leave it to fight in the Periphery Uprising.

In the final act, Amaris personally murders the young ruler, abusing his trust, and lets his troops enact a coup, almost completely overcoming the unsuspecting local forces (which they outnumber 2:1).

These are the events that earned Amaris the “honorific” the Ursurper and the events that follow see the destruction of the Hegemony in the liberation campaign, ending with a drive for freeing Earth itself and killing Amaris.

Why it doesn’t work

The bigger a conspiracy is the more likely it is that somebody talks. Supposedly the conspiracy involved...

the governments of all four periphery realms,

the members of dozens of independence movements spread over 1,000s of light years,

the militias and their many thousands or more members,

the personnel of half a dozen major merchant companies,

most of the military of the Rim worlds,

the members of those 50 divisions, and

their mercenary company trainers.

We are supposed to believe that the SL intelligence services were not capable to undermine a conspiracy numbering in the millions, that nobody went rogue, nobody talked. None of the Rim Worlds soldiers ever got drunk and said too much to a local during a night of debauchery of any kind. Nobody ever went to the authorities.

Not only that, all these people either enlisted in the plan or kept quiet for money. 

The SL is concerned where certain shipments of battlemechs are going but cannot squeeze it out of a single crew member even though they know who handled the shipments.

Amaris explicitly betrays a major independence movement but everyone else sticks to the plan.

There is enough black money moved around to fund not only the independence movements, but 50 divisions of battlemechs and more. The equipment is bought, so is the silence of those transporting it, and finally these people are trained in the Deep Periphery for years - which means building bases to host them on unsettled worlds beyond realm borders, requiring a constant stream of resources to sustain them.

Nothing of that left a trail for SL intelligence to follow?

We’re talking sums of money probably equivalent to the budget for the SLDF because these troops have to be created anew. In other words, vast amounts. How do the governments change their spending unnoticed? The SL does not do basic accounting? [EDIT: According to sarna.net the SLDF at its peak fielded 125 battle mech divisions. This is the result of 1 1/2 centuries of military spending. The Periphery governments are supposedly capable of creating 40% of that force on-the-fly with a training program hosted by a few mercenary units. How can you effectively train so many soldiers, especially to fight as large formations, without having an organization to match the SLDF or a major house military? It’s doubtful any Inner Sphere lord could match this feet - because they never have. If this was easily possible, why not double your own forces “in secret?”]

And here’s the worst part: It is established that the periphery is actually being exploited by the Inner Sphere for their own gain, so this major spending comes while essentially massive amounts of riches are funneled away anyway, in times of exploitation.

Does this really make sense? Do people take part in a scheme that takes a decade to unfold, including five years of separation from loved ones for many of them? Can the personnel of 50 divisions really be hidden in the ranks of staff of half a dozen transporting companies? 

(Also: Take for example the American War of Independence. Roughly a third of the people of the Colonies were Loyalists. Even in occupied populaces resenting their occupiers you would have some people actively collaborating with their oppressors. Even more - many periphery worlds owe the SL for either being settle-able or for making their lives a lot easier through things like cheap water purification technology...)

More fridge logic

Other facts that have been established:

The SL has entrenched its troops in fortifications in the periphery.

The SL doctrine for fortifications is to enable troops to strike from hidden exits, not to lock itself in or simply concentrate its forces.

The prime fortifications of the SL, “Castles Brian”, are under mountains and underground with many tunnels and hidden exits.

So, can the rebels simply drop nuclear bombs on these guys “and move on?” 

They can’t. These devices don’t raze mountains. Also you need a delivery vehicle. These fortifications should have had anti-air defenses, but even if not or if ineffective against the chosen delivery vehicle, they are still hidden behind tons and tons of rock.

The popular image of nuclear bombs is of an all-destroying force but this is not accurate. Militarily the stopping power of a nuclear bomb has been established and for use against armored forces like tank divisions the actual kill zone is rather small - like a third of a mile in diameter if I remember correctly. Take then into account that battlemechs are better armored and secured also against radiation than modern armored vehicles and they can even be made to operate in the vacuum of space. (And space and radiation go together...)

Furthermore, given that terrorist strikes have been an tactic mentioned within the same pages I’m covering here, including suicide attacks and a localized nuclear strike, which SLDF commander would not spread his or her forces to the best of their abilities to avoid vulnerability?

Thinking this further, the SLDF is operating in enemy territory - these people are bombing their own land. So they just blow up a few megatons next to their own population centers? Ignore the fallout on civilians that are entirely their own population?? 

It quickly becomes clear that this “tactic” is more a plot device than anything. These rebels are so unscrupulous and amoral, they can resort to things the SLDF wouldn’t do and therefore best it easily. This supposedly explains away all the advantages the SLDF enjoy - their stockpiles, technological superiority, fortifications, advanced training and doctrines, even the many years of actual combat experience.

The same plot device is used in how Amaris’ Rim Worlds troops eliminate resistance in the Hegemony. Now there’s less inhibition to use such weaponry given these are not their home worlds. But the other conditions still apply - especially since many of the Hegemony worlds explicitly have Castles Brian, and many several. 

And regular plot convenience

Other things like the automated defense systems of the Hegemony were simple plot convenience, there to be ironically used against those that hoped to enjoy their protection. This helps explain the bloody and protracted campaign need to win the Hegemony back.

The Amaris Coup’s basic design depends on many things - including...

the greed of the Inner Sphere lords completely clouding their self-preservation. After all they sell materiel to staff 50 mech divisions when originally the presence of a single mech battalion in one periphery realm was almost a casus belli. 

the continued cooperation and secrecy of all participants during the decade where Amaris unfolds his plan to win Richard Cameron’s confidence. What was the backup plan if that wasn’t possible?

the complete lack of anyone else caring even a little about Richard Cameron, like Kerensky doing his actual duties during this time period, especially given the fact that he’s supposedly meticulous, dutiful, and virtuous without measure.

the administration of the Hegemony not developing the least of initiative.

that the Kerensky reforms made the SLDF so dependent on his leadership he couldn’t delegate this duty to anyone else. What kind of genius makes themselves unreplaceable and traps themselves in a situation where they cannot serve their duties?

that nobody notices Amaris deploys double as many soldiers to the Hegemony than he originally stated. So nobody noticed the extra beds, extra meals, extra vehicles, extra battlemechs? Did half of them hide in the toilets and get their half-meals shoved under the door? These troops were housed on Hegemony territory and supplied by the Hegemony administration. How do you pull off such a sleight-of-hand?

We’re actually closing in on “deus ex machina” quick. Yes, such big plots are often contrived. But there is a measure, and if you look closely, this book does not come together as well as it seems.

Conclusion

Just as Kerensky’s Exodus, it’s best not to think too hard about how all of this is even possible or all unravels. It’s both disillusioning and concerning that this is still one of the best setting books I have ever read. For all its flaws it creates really a lot of good lore and has an engaging plot.

This is kind of what to expect when the broad strokes are already made and somebody has to fill them in. Kerensky’s Exodus or the sudden fall of the SL were outlined, and filling in the gaps makes kind of clear that this was a tall order. The book mostly succeeds, even. It just has to perform a few sleights of hand too many to get there...

[PS and foot note: I’m currently reading also bits of “BattleTech: Explorer Corps”. When reading about ComStar Primus Simms’ visions I noticed that in the BT universe if somebody has visions they are usually accurate and plot-relevant, linking plot elements without apparent cause. In “The Star League” one Cameron predicts the end of the Terran Hegemony, for example. Such visions usually revolve around elements whose meaning is clear in hindsight, like Simms’ seeing “visions of monsters” who really are the symbols or emblems of invading Clans. If we add Stackpole’s foray into a mystical duel between mech warriors defying scientific explanation (in the Warrior Trilogy between Yorinaga Kurita and both Kell brothers, Patrick and Morgan). From this we can conclude that deep down the BT universe has a supernatural element.]

[sayruq]

Hello, So I noticed that you like Cersei and was wondering what your rationale was for that. I mean I can like characters who have done morally wrong things. There is Tamamo no Mae from Fate/Extra. Her backstory has her killing 80,000 in a single battle, where the enemy solders kept shooting arrows until they got her. Self-defense or not 80,000 is a lot of people. I guess since she is from a visual novel/video game it's a bit different than Cersei. Powerful magic users are my aesthetic. Thanks.

Hi. Honestly in a book series that contain Euron, Ramsay, Walder Frey, Tywin, Aerys, etc. it’s hard for me to look at Cersei and think she’s the worst. She’s not a good person but she’s the only female villain and in AFFC she got her own chapters which delved into her psyche. I found her utterly entertaining and tragic when I read them. She’s mean, vicious and has about a dozen issues. She has known how she’ll die since she was 10. She killed for the first time at that age and then never again until Robert. 

Speaking of Robert, while we got a view of the Westerosi patriarchy from Catelyn, the view we get from Cersei is different and much sadder. Catelyn’s father loved her and valued her, her husband had a lot of respect for her. In many ways Catelyn’s tragedy started when she was in her 30s, Cersei’s started before her mother died. She was differentiated from her twin and likely didn’t interact much with her father. Aerys looked down on her (probably for the first time in her life that her station, the only thing of real lasting value that she has, wasn’t good enough) and when she finally married a handsome king, he turned out to be an abusive rapist. 

She literally never got what she wanted, everything turns to ashes in her mouth. Joffrey dies within 2 years of becoming king and that starts Cersei’s spiral into madness. She’s terrified for her life and her children and she tries to emulate her father to gain the respect she’s never had at any point in her life. At best she was objectified. It was all about how pretty she was and nothing more. No wonder she’s fixated on power and her gender, no wonder she’s so damn angry all the time when she knows that had she been born a man, she would have had everything Jaime had and thrown away without a care. She’s been dehumanised for so long that she’ll do anything to be seen as a real person like her father.

She’s such a fascinating character. Her interactions are never dull. There’s so much life in every action and thought. The ugliness inside of her feels relatable to me because I was very angry child too. The dialogue and imagery is some of GRRM’s best.

[joannalannister]

Tor.com did a feature about costume design in SF/F and the symbolism of white clothing:

In a blood-soaked world where survival is dependent upon grit and determination, the woman in white is spotless. She is radiant. She is pure.

The woman in white is often used as a main character’s motivation. She is his comfort in times of trouble, the source of his courage, and the object of his protection. [...] She is pristine—an assigned value which means many things. She has never killed before. She is a virgin. She is wealthy, or at least well-kept. She is civilized. When a male protagonist sees the woman in white, he sees everything that, to a western colonialist narrative, is worth protecting: virtue, patience, stability, and purity. The woman in white reminds the hero of what he is fighting for. He is fighting for that white cloak—for its ability to remain unblemished, no matter what.

For her part, the woman in white must remain pure and radiant in order to continue motivating that hero. He will do whatever it takes to protect her and the things she stands for; thus, it is her solemn duty to remain unblemished. If she doesn’t (or so the logic goes)—if she lets him see a stain on her white gown—then the hero will stop fighting, and all will be lost.

Sometimes, the woman in white is used to reinforce an existing narrative. She is presented to a hero, and he is inspired, and he fights for her

Read More

My mind really does jump immediately to Lannisters when I read things and I was reminded of Cersei in her white gown in ASOS:

But when he stepped into his bedchamber, he found his sister waiting for him.

She stood beside the open window, looking over the curtain walls and out to sea. The bay wind swirled around her, flattening her gown against her body in a way that quickened Jaime's pulse. It was white, that gown, like the hangings on the wall and the draperies on his bed. Swirls of tiny emeralds brightened the ends of her wide sleeves and spiraled down her bodice. Larger emeralds were set in the golden spiderweb that bound her golden hair. The gown was cut low, to bare her shoulders and the tops of her breasts. She is so beautiful. He wanted nothing more than to take her in his arms.

Oh boy, do I love going off about Lannister clothing...

Cersei selected this white gown to make a bold statement in White Sword Tower: Give up your white cloak, in exchange for me in my white gown. Save me.*

It’s almost as if Cersei is conscious of, and trying to capitalize on, all of the white gowns that have ever existed in the fantasy genre**, to emphasize her purity, her wealth, her virtue -- her value -- for Jaime. (Lannisters are so very performative, but they perform for themselves the most.)  Cersei knows what Jaime wants (“innocence,” as Jaime states in ADWD) and she’s trying to play into Jaime’s fantasy.

The white dress immediately affects Jaime’s thinking:

She is so beautiful. He wanted nothing more than to take her in his arms.

Traditionally the woman in white has never killed before, and Jaime immediately feels regret that he wasn’t the one to kill Robert. Instead, Cersei ~stained~ herself with Robert’s death, which still does not sit easy with Jaime:

Robert’s death still left a bitter taste in Jaime’s mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. “I only wished he’d died at my hands.”

It is the knight’s job to protect the woman in white and to do all her killing for her, something Jaime failed to do. 

Nevermind that the white dress was never Cersei; Melara Hetherspoon could testify to that. Jaime’s constructed his own fairytale surrounding his relationship with Cersei, and GRRM spends the series deconstructing this fantasy: “I thought that I was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, but all the time she was the Stranger, hiding her true face from my gaze.” 

But wait, that white dress insists. You have a second chance to save me!

His sister fought back tears. “Jaime, you’re my shining knight. You cannot abandon me when I need you most! He is stealing my son, sending me away... and unless you stop him, Father is going to force me to wed again!”

Jaime wants to save his sister, the tearful damsel in distress. He wants to wed her, as she does him, “but it can never be, Jaime.” Their relationship must remain secret, a thing of the shadows, when all Jaime wants is to bring it into the light:

“I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it.”

So when Cersei comes to Jaime in her white dress in White Sword Tower and wants to have sex with him...

Jaime felt himself responding. “No,” he said, “not here.” They had never done it in White Sword Tower, much less in the Lord Commander’s chambers. “Cersei, this is not the place.” 

“You took me in the sept. This is no different.” She drew out his cock and bent her head over it. 

Jaime pushed her away with the stump of his right hand. “No. Not here, I said.” He forced himself to stand.

Oh, but it is different, Cersei. It is to Jaime. 

Altar sex was something brazen, dangerous, dangerously public. (“The septons...” “The Others can take the septons.” “murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her.”) Altar sex was like a lover returning from the war, like kissed greetings at railway stations turned up to 11, and then turned up to 111. Altar sex suited Jaime’s need to love his sister openly, without shame. (Oh gosh, don’t get me started on House Lannister and shame. To say that altar sex was shameless would only be the beginning of a very long discussion...)

But here in White Sword Tower... “A white book sat on a white table in a white room. The room was round, its walls of whitewashed stone hung with white woolen tapestries.” It’s an embodiment of the ideal of True Knighthood. It’s sacred for Jaime, in a way that the sept could never be. There is a residue of idealism that clings to Jaime in this Tower, mocking Cersei’s need for secrecy and insisting that Tyrion would never lie to him. 

To have sex in White Sword Tower would be imposing secrecy and shadow upon all that bright, spotless white. That’s why Jaime rejects Cersei in this moment in ASOS, imo. He still wants Cersei, else why grieve over his “lover” a few paragraphs later? “I’ve lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war.” 

But the problem is, Jaime cannot have both Cersei and White Sword Tower. 

“It was white, that gown, like the hangings on the wall and the draperies on his bed.”

There’s a deliberate juxtaposition here on GRRM’s part, the white gown vs the white tower, a foreshadowing of how Jaime is smack dab in the middle of his page in the White Book, torn between Lannister crimson and Kingsguard white, between glory and honor. 

(GRRM evokes Jaime’s internal conflict ALL THE TIME. Red or white, red or white, red or white? See Roose asking, “red or white?" [...] "White is for Starks. I'll drink red like a good Lannister.") 

Jaime spends AFFC/ADWD straddling the line between loyalty to the corrupt Lannister regime and loyalty to the ideals of True Knighthood, but the problem is these loyalties are incompatible. “We all must choose.” 

And ultimately I think GRRM does a magnificent job positioning Jaime as an anti-villain longing to play the hero.*** Brienne has reminded Jaime that True Knights are more than a mirage, but Jaime keeps doing horrible things and failing to live up to this very real standard of True Knighthood. Sure, he’s a slightly more ethical than a straight-up villain like Tywin, but Jaime still works to achieve Tywin’s desired objectives, even after Tywin’s death. 

And soon we’ll have the valonqar... These violent delights have violent ends. Jaime starts off wanting to protect Cersei and keep Cersei’s white gown spotless, but over the course of the series, he learns that Cersei’s gown is as soiled as his white cloak, and eventually he’ll murder her for it, a far darker Lancelot to Cersei’s dark!Guinevere. I find it all so exciting :)))))

Anyways, gosh, I love Cersei’s white dress. 

**In all of the works I’ve read by GRRM, he’s very conscious of all the science fiction/fantasy/horror stories that have preceded him, and it’s like he’s entering into a great dialogue with the genre itself through his own writing. His stories become a large commentary on what worked, what didn’t, and what can be done better, and he offers up praise to all of his favorites, like Beauty and the Beast and Robert Jordan and Stephen King and so many others. 

***I think this is, like, the most unpopular and wankiest thing to say in Lannister fandom, but I believe the prominent Lannister characters represent a spectrum of villainy. I’m not gonna say it outright, but I believe that age and level of villainy have a strong positive correlation. If you know what I mean.