#but byler and jancy paralleling in s2 means that mike has started to have romantic feelings for will or the realization of them

[chirpsythismorning]

Hi. How do you think Byler will happen in s5? I mean with Mike and Eleven and then Mike and Will?

I agree with a lot of bylers that Mike and El are probably going to break up at the start of s5.

Some fans even speculate they already broke up off-screen during the 2 day time-skip at the end of s4, which is definitely possible.

Either way, I think it's likely they’ll settle things right off the bat because that’s just how the Duffers roll.

Think about how when it came to the whole Nancy/Jonathan/Steve Love triangle, they made sure to always have Nancy be (at the very least ambiguously) separated from Steve before her and Jonathan teamed up?

In s1 it was a little more gradual and subtle, but by s2 they jumped right into the nitty gritty, having Nancy and Steve’s conflict at the very beginning, which then in turn allowed viewers to focus on Nancy and Jonathan’s relationship for the rest of the season.

And so, Mike and El ambiguously breaking up at the start s4? Only for Will and Mike to go on a road trip in the desert for the rest of the season?

That, in and of itself, is proof enough that they want us to consider looking at Mike and Will as being a possibility, as this is literally a technique they use for introducing new romantic pairings.

Although s4 byler operates throughout like s2 jancy, it ends like s1 jancy. At the end of s4, Mike’s monologue tries to make us believe things are perfect in paradise, which parallels quite nicely with the way Nancy and Steve being thrown back together in the s1 epilogue tries to make us believe things are perfect in paradise for them as well, only for us to find out at the start of s2 that this wasn't at all the case.

Which is why I believe that s5 byler has to essentially follow the same formula as s2 jancy again.

Because at the end of s4, we’re left in a spot where we’ve had all this build-up for Mike and Will, and so if they are ending up together, and are even perhaps going to be spending a good portion of time on screen together during the last season, it wouldn’t make sense to have all their tension be riddled with the audience feeling icky because Mike and El are still technically together, for the same reason it never would have worked with Nancy/Jonathan/Steve.

What I think is interesting about byler though, is that technically Mike and El’s break up was so ambiguous, that we don’t even know if they actually got back together?

Like we keep talking about them breaking up in s5, but I honestly wouldn’t even be surprised if the writers frame their confrontation in a way that acknowledges them as having been broken up since Lenora and having stayed that way. 

The only way I could see them dragging out the ambiguity of Mike and El's romance, is if the audience knows they're not together anymore at the beginning, but we're seeing Will assume the opposite until near the end. That's the only way I feel like it would work though, because otherwise all of their scenes wouldn't feel right. And it definitely needs to feel right.

After years of dancing around Mike and Will as a romantic pairing, they need to make it clear that they want us to be rooting for them. Which is why they're likely to continue following the formula they've always followed.

But the thing is, Mike and El's break-up in early s4 is equally as ambiguous as Nancy and Steve's break-up was in early s2. They didn't outright say it, but one of them couldn't say I love you to the other, followed by that same person going on a trip with someone who has feelings for them... This means that s5 can't get any more ambiguous than that (especially considering Mike and El's own history with breaking up as it is). There isn't much in between in there, and so that's very likely how it will go down from what I've gathered.

TBH, it all largely depends on how they address Mike’s monologue, I guess. Technically El didn’t seem too happy about what he had to say, and so why would would they even be back together because of that?

That might also explain both Mike and El’s behavior once they returned to Hawkins. It’s not that his monologue didn’t work even, it’s that the monologue in and of itself wasn’t Mike saying, “Hey I know you broke up with me, but please take me back,”. And even if it was, El was the one who was implied to end things between them in the first place, just like in s3. Which is why in s3, it required her confronting him to address things in order for them to get back together. Which means we would need her confronting him and verbally confirming that she wants to be back together (again). But we didn’t get that at the end of s4...

If anything El is in the exact same position Mike was at the end of s3. He told her how he felt, but she didn’t get to say how she felt and now things are kind of left in the unknown. I think luckily it's very likely El knows Mike doesn't feel about her the way he's trying to convince her and everyone (and himself) he does, and so she has no reason to play along in getting back together the way Mike felt obligated to between s3-4. That’s also why I think she is going to be the main catalyst for them ending things, because the ball is still in her court and I highly doubt she's going to say i love you too (too)... If anything, she's going to dump his ass (again).

Regardless of how it plays out, I see that happening fairly early on, most likely between 5x01-5x02.

I do hope we'll also get to see El actually acknowledging byler in a way that is substantial, before it’s out in the open and obvious to everyone else in the story.

Something I only realized recently, and what I find very interesting, is that we don’t really ever have El acknowledging Will and Mike’s friendship... like, at all.

Besides that one mention in her letter at the start of s4, that’s the most we’ve got since s1 of El actually acknowledging their relationship (and in those few cases, she wasn’t really acknowledging it). It’s as if her perspective of her relationship with Mike is worlds apart from whatever she views Mike and Will's relationship as being.

And so, how convenient that the first time El is really going to be looking at them, she’ll finally be seeing them for what they truly are: not platonic whatsoever.

When it comes to byler and how that will play out throughout the final season, my take on things might be a teensy bit controversial...

I think that something is going to happen at the end of 5x02 (bc of some foreshadowing/just a feeling), a huge cliffhanger, possibly related to Mike and his presumed death (he will resurrect don’t fret).

I’m leaning less towards him dying and more towards him sacrificing himself in some way related to the upside down. I don’t see why they would foreshadow him going there so much if he isn’t going to end up there, but also it seems weird to even emphasize him going in the upside down if it’s already presumed to be leaking into Hawkins, like it doesn’t even seem that scary for Mike to be stuck there in that scenario? So maybe it’s a gates being closed at the last second situation, with him then him being stuck there? 

I do think Will is likely to join him, though this is where the controversy comes in. 

I think Mike is going to be out on his own, most likely between 5x03-5x04, with the cliffhanger at the end 5x04 (vol 1) being Will finding him/joining him somehow. This means 1-2 episodes of Mike and Will being completely separate-- GASP

Because of the foreshadowing placing Mike in the upside down, notably, and yet still shortly BEFORE Will, is why I see it happening this way. Though, none of this rules out Will confronting Vecna, as I think a lot of evidence points to the fact that s5 will start off in a way that will place Will's connection with Vecna at the center of it all. This is also why I think they have been heavily implying s5 will focus on will a great deal whenever they talk about s5, bc it's a lot less spoilery for them to give us crumbs for what early s5 entails vs what late s5 will entail.

And so I do believe 5x01-5x02 will largely involve them planning and executing their plan within the first official phase of the now impending apocalypse. And this phase will no doubt impact Will in a tremendous way, arguably the most. The Duffer's have referred to the first few hours of s5 in a way that almost made it sound seperate from the rest, which is kind of why I'm intrigued to place Mike's presumed death/sacrifice at this point that seperates the first few hours from the rest. Where near the end of Will's sort of confrontation with Vecna in early s5, Mike is going to be the one taking the brunt of the effects of that.

This could also parallel nicely with the ending of 1x03 when they find Will's body. Considering how much they've talked about going full circle back to s1, it would be interesting to see a cliffhanger that resembles that one from The Body in particular, because it's honestly so painfully beautiful that I think a future scene paralleling it might be the end of me.

Regardless of my wants and dreams about how exactly this could all play out, I think that the cliffhanger for 5x04 is likely going to involve byler ending up together in the upside down, reunited after being apart for some time.

I should also say that I do indeed think S5 could be split into two volumes again (most of my theory is based on that assumption, so if that ends up not being the case, lets just pretend this never happened).

I think this because just in terms of promotion, it’s easier to get consumers to buy things when the hype is still there. They have numerous collaborations they do with businesses with like Doritos, Sour Patch Kids, JanSport, and dozens of others. And I am willing to bet the sales were a lot better for products with ST slapped on them during s4 than previous seasons, solely bc of the fact that the hype lasted for months as opposed to maybe a month at most. 

Not only that, but with it being the final season, the show is going to be gone forever after this. It's over (minus the enigmatic spin-off). So it would make sense for them to stretch out the very last run for as long as they can. The split also gives the Duffers more time to edit episodes in vol 2, all while vol 1 is premiering, just like they did for s4. 

And also just like s4, I think this approach creates a necessity for a cliffhanger to create hype in between. And I think that’s the perfect opportunity to hype of a reunion for Mike and Will after them being apart.

We’ve seen that separating them allows us to see more clearly how they feel about each other, especially Mike in s1 (and then how that impacted their relationship in s2).

And so if we were to get Mike, in canon, on our screens, everyone and their moms watching, acknowledging his feelings for Will, I do think it would make sense for him to be alone and thinking through some things, and with us sitting along for the ride.

And so them being apart for at least one episode is a given, because that will give us the excitement that comes with seeing them having those realizations while they are apart, followed by the excitement and anticipation that comes with them being face to face again. 

This would also allow the second half of s5 to scream s2 byler... just let that sink in.

Considering all of the foreshadowing singling out Mike and Will in particular in regards to the ud, we could be seeing them alone together for at least 1-2 episodes, though I still think during this time there will be some tension and denial going on. Maybe they fought before they initially got separated and things are still awkward despite them being relieved to be reunited. Or maybe during this time is when their final boss fight happens (paralleling their 3x03/4x02 fights). I do think that the denial is likely to be on Will's side mostly though post reunion, as we haven't seen their relationship from the perspective of Mike being in the know and Will being clueless, and so we're due for at least some of that before they get together.

But in all fairness, the likelihood that they’ll be surrounded by danger in the apocalypse, means a lot of their time together alone will most likely be spent in survival mode. I do think this would then be what the Duffers foreshadowed happening in s4, with byler in Jonathan's room in front of the upside down tapestry and then on the upside down couch in the cabin. (Not to mention, the Duffers saying s5 being inspired by LOTR: The Return of the King feels like pretty obvious hinting at Mike and Will in the upside down, with them being paralleled to Sam and Frodo already. So, there is indeed a lot to go off of here, all pointing to them being isolated, on a dangerous journey).

By 5x07 I would hope they’d finally be reunited with the others, but I think it’s still possible they could either be by themselves or at least hopefully interacting with a few other people at this point (Murray is going to pull up on them at some point, it is inevitable). I do think that this will be the episode that gets more serious in terms of leading to the inevitable...

Yes. I am a Mike and Will are going to officially be canon at the end of 5x07 truther (the grid the st writers posted on twitter agrees w me). I could definitely see their first kiss happening at this moment, seeing as the kiss in and of itself would be what's telling us they're together now basically.

For people that think 5x07 is too late, i'm sorry, this is just how slow-burn works. Their first kiss happening in vol 1 of s5 would be too soon, but it would also be too anticlimactic for them to wait for a first kiss until the very very end when they're happy and together in the epilogue. And so it’s most likely we'll get an almost or multiple (between 5x01-5x06), then a first kiss(es) in 5x07, and then maybe if we're lucky again during endgame goodbyes in the finale (5x08).

We know that the Duffers have said they have the last 30 minutes or so very clear in their heads, with them planning a bunch of endings for different characters, along with David saying for years that the ending is really beautiful, and so I have a good feeling that at least 1/3 of the series finale will be fluff, with a dash of bittersweet mourning, assuming at least one major character doesn't make it out alive. That thirty minutes or so will likely be used to just close off all those storylines nicely in a way that feels as satisfying as it can possibly be considering.

If there's anything I do feel confident about, it's that I think byler will end the series being framed in a way that’s quite similar to the ending of s1, where it acknowledges them as being connected to the party/dnd in a substantial way again, along with their other friends/family, but also with the two of them having their own little world separate from the others within that.

And El will also of course be a part of their life, with her family (as a sister/daughter) and friend, and yet with her too finally having her own world separate from everyone and being content with that. For so long she's been running away from people hurting her and as a result she's had to depend on others just to survive. I think she's always believed this was the only way for her and that because of this, being alone was a bad thing. When in reality I think she's going to come to realize being alone doesn't have to mean she's running away from someone or running towards someone else. On her own she's still worthy and she's more than enough. She is her own superhero. And she shouldn't have to feel less than just because she doesn't have to depend on others to dictate her worth for her anymore. She dictates that herself.

I hope (fully believe) they'll all find happiness!

[theoriginalsapphic]

my favorite jancy/byler parallel

at the end of season 1, Mike and Nancy lose a friend.

they carry the guilt of their death and and only break down in private...

feeling like they're slowly losing their sanity...

...and the only person they find comfort and understanding in is a Byers brother.

[pineapplemcclean]

i barely use tumblr so im not sure how to use it but i hope this reaches the right audience

this is a post on why I think Mileven is unhealthy/toxic that probably no one is going to see 💀

Anyways I apologize in advance if this has any spelling or grammatical mistakes I'm not going to read all of this when I finish it I'll just post it right away

First off Mike doesn’t know/love El as a person. During his monologue he never mentioned a single personality trait. Nothing about El as a person. And not a single favorite memory- like for example his monologue to Will in s2 where he talks about how they met on the swings. In his monologue he says something along the lines of “I’ve loved you ever since I saw you” that, however, is a lie- he wanted to send her back wherever she came from until he found out she knew something about Will. And when he says “I love you” the vines tighten around her neck. I’m not sure exactly why yet but I have a theory I will delve into later on. “You can fly, you can move mountains” here Mike is appreciating El the Superhero again. Not El as a person. Mike talking about El's powers isn’t romantic. its here that I bring up Millie’s interview about her favorite scene. https://youtu.be/wAMjtRvRQIY

“Mike isn’t loving El like she wants him to” and “Does he truly love her or is she still the superwoman in his mind?” Which implies that Mike has only ever shown love towards El the Superhero. We don't really know if he loves El as a person BUT he called her a superhero during his monologue so….. Mike says he’s never been scared of El before- another lie. For example, when El threw Lucas in s1 using her powers, he was scared of her. Which is completely reasonable, but lying about it in his “love confession”… When he says he’s scared El isn't going to need him anymore he doesn't stutter and his voice is steady (unlike with the rest of his monologue) which means he isn't lying- because Mike and El truly are codependent on each other. And what happens after the monologue? We see El ignoring the topic of their relationship which most Mileven shippers think is simple- they think that now El knows that Mike truly loves her blah blah blah and that she isn't talking to him bc of Max. However, El talked to Mike about Brenner which is a heavy topic for her but she couldn't address the topic of their relationship? which should be obvious? They're going to have a big talk in s5 and its going to be very emotional- possibly a breakup and a talk about their feelings (about time)

Someone also pointed out that this scene contrasts with Max’s whole Vecna moment, because the memories that help Max escape are the memories that visually appear to us, during this scene, the only time we see a memory put to the words that Mike says is the “you were wearing a yellow t shirt in the woods” kind of thing, it gives her a push before the vines tighten more, I believe that this is because everything else that Mike is saying, she can’t put a memory to it, he’s basically just rambling ? nonsense…? her facial expressions, it’s almost as if she’s searching for any like PROOF or memories to go with his words.

To finish the first reason, we genuinely have never seen Mike appreciate El as a person, not just in his monologue but at any point.

Second I want to talk about the “Mike can't express his love bc of his parents” Yet Nancy can? Let me just talk about Stancy/Jancy a bit here and how they're paralleled to Byler Stancy was a toxic relationship because both Steve and Nancy pretended to be people they aren't. After the break up we see both of them get character development. Nancy also started acting like a jerk which is a parallel to how Mike starts treating his friends like shit in s3 while dating El. Mike pretends to be more mature around El. He stops playing d&d and all...and when the Byers move to Cali we see him joining a d&d club. Also, at the end of s3 he apologizes to El for being excited about presents. In s4 we see El lying to Mike about having friends and going to parties, so she can be seen as cool to him. They are both pretending to be someone they aren't. Nancy couldn't say "I love you" to Steve just like Mike couldn't say it to El. And back to the main point “Mike cant express his love bc of his parents” but when its Nancy its bc she loves Jonathan? And actually, Mike having parents who are in a loveless relationship is actually more proof that Mileven is loveless because loveless relationships are something Mike is familiar with so its easier for him to yk be in a loveless relationship. Same goes for El who is used to people appreciating her for her powers only because of the lab.

Something that's kind of similar to what I'm talking about, an example- if you've seen the IT movies then you know Bev and Eddie basically married their parents because bc of their trauma with them (not that Mike's parents' relationship is like traumatic but it obviously affected him)

Nancy has the same parents but why can she say ily to Jonathan without someone telling her to and why can she talk about his personality but Mike can't??

its because Mike doesn't love El and the "from, Mike" is proof enough. because he obviously wrote "from" subconsciously meaning he never thought of writing "I love you" to someone who apparently means the world to him and he loves very much. I mean, it might've not been subconsciously but El's point was good "you cant even write it" because you can easily fake something while writing it I think that's all for reason number 2 (on and also Jancy and Byler have parallels- talking while sitting on a car; Nancy/Mike and Jonathan/Will talking and Nancy/Mike glances at Jonathan's/Will's lips reason number 3 I don't think El is ready for a relationship a controversial take but let me explain "you say El isn't ready for a relationship but then go ahead and ship her with Max" I ship her w/ Max bc she'd treat El better but I don't think it should happen (or that it will) because El has unresolved trauma from the lab and Mike triggered her "what did you do?!". My point is not that you shouldn't ship Mileven, its that I think they shouldn't be canon. "Will is also traumatized" Will's trauma is different and he had more people help him cope with it. El was introduced to so many new things like friendship, love, school, etc. and reason number 5 is that Mike makes El feel like a monster, even if its not on purpose. Even if they love each other they don't make each other feel loved. I think that's all but I'd like to add a bit of a s4 Mileven analysis (with some Byler in it)

In the beginning we see Mike reading El's letter and we're shown how El is doing- we notice that she's lying to him about everyone being nice and about her grades. She ends her letter with "Love, El" when Mike finishes reading her letter he crumbles it, despite being a sentimental type of person- he has (had?) Will's art hung up in the basement.

When he arrives in Cali he looks ugly (sorry i just needed to express my opinion on his outfit) he looks very excited to meet El but when he gets to Will, his childhood best friend, he becomes very... weird. he bumps him on the shoulder instead of hugging him back. this is why the line "Will is acting weird" El wrote to Mike is so important- bc even though Will is the one who loves Mike, he's been acting normal. and everyone is saying its because Mike doesn't want to be friends with Will anymore- yet later on Mike apologized for his behavior and him and Will have been glued to the hip since. so its def not bc he doesn't want to be friends with Will...suspicious Anyways on to the rink-o-mania scene we see Mike and El being happy yk just your usual couple hanging out. However, as it zooms into Will's face we realize the scene is from his pov. And Will is actually an unreliable narrator, meaning this scene might not be as happy as it looks. (someone said that Will was confirmed to be an unreliable narrator but since no one provided a video or article I'm going to prove it in a bit) When Angela enters we see Mike and El skating from her pov but not looking as happy- in fact they look...bored? meaning that they aren't actually happy in the skate ring scene. And about Will being an unreliable narrator: in his pov Mike is ignoring him entirely. However later on Mike confronts Will about how he's been acting meaning Mike was actually paying attention to Will. Anyways you know how the rest of the skate ring scene unfolds. As I already mentioned, Mike makes El unintentionally feel like a monster (and in my opinion he was scared of her here) and he's paralleled to Brenner (which will become a bit important later on). An important thing to note here is that in season 1 El broke Troy's arm. Troy is Will and Mike's bully. He didn't show the same reaction then as he did in the skate ring scene. He was happy/pleased but in the skate ring scene he's angry/scared. ONWARDS the dinner where Mike makes El feel like shit yet again. "She didn't look fine" Jesus Michael that's your gf, why are you being annoying The next day Mike goes to apologize to El who then points out the "From, Mike" and how he was scared of her. The whole argument is about Mike only showing love towards El the Superhero (as MBB said in the interview I mentioned earlier on) and it's important to know he calls her superhero during their fight. Which just makes El feel worse. another important detail is that he blames this whole thing on the "mouth breathers" when Mike is the problem - he's pushing the blame away from himself again (same as in s3 when he asks what he did wrong when he literally lied to El. Meanwhile in both of his apologies with Will he fully takes the blame, saying how he was acting like a jerk. And Mike always knows what to say to Will, but with El he needs someone to motivate him or tell him what to say - Will's speech to him in s4 and Lucas dragging Mike to the mall in s3, meanwhile Mike dragged Lucas over to Will's). El feels like Mike doesn't love her anymore because she lost her powers/she isn't a superhero anymore. wattpad time skip to El's note:

"Dear, Mike I have gone to become a superhero again. From, El" 1. "I have gone to become a superhero again" is in a way saying she's gone to become someone he can love again. 2. "From, El" this screams breakup to me, idk about you guys. And Mike said this fight seemed more adult compared to the rest of the fights they've had (the s3 breakup included, which could possibly mean that this is a serious breakup). He also said it's "a fight you can't come back from". And imo Mike knew El was breaking up with him by the way he was staring at the note. And the word "adult" that Mike used, I think it's important because Caleb says they have a teenage relationship dynamic. teenage relationship. adult fight.

another reason why I think they had an implied breakup is this parallel: Vickie: "I am rambling about my dumb boyfriend when there are people out there suffering" talking about her breakup to Robin. Mike: "No, i..it's stupid, given everything that's going on" Talking about his fight with El to Will.

fast forward to the van scene

If you take Mike from a surface level standpoint some of his scenes flat out don't make sense. For instance, in episode 5, Mike and Will have their heart to heart. Mike says he regrets not being able to say what he wanted to El and that maybe things would be different if he had. Then Will talks about how scary it is to open up to people you care about because they might not like the truth. And Mike agrees. So let's say Mike is surface level. And he's only talking about El in this context. The truth Mike would be talking about in this scenario would be telling her that he loved her back in ep 3- But that doesn't make sense?? El was practically begging Mike to prove that he loved her back in the first few episodes. So in what universe would El not like that truth? Why would Mike think that El wouldn't want to hear that he loved her? And if Mike truly meant everything he said during the finale, why would he not tell her what she wanted to hear back in episode 3? If you love someone and you don't want to lose them, you'd want to get your feelings across and make her feel validated. Even if he can't say it, he could prove it through his actions. Hug her. Kiss her. Hold her hand. Anything to showcase that he loves her. But he doesn't do that. And then when the moment in the finale comes around, he starts contradicting himself. His actions just stop making any semblance of sense when you try looking at it that way. In fact, the script of the van scene released recently. Noah said they filmed it all day. But when he saw the scene play out, he noticed that it was edited to be more subtle in certain areas. Now, there are two important lines that are removed from the final product. One is Will talking about "El" and saying how losing Mike hurts too much. I'm supposing they were just trying to make Will's feelings more subtle here. But the second line removed is from Mike who says that the last time he looked in El's eyes, he saw that she didn't need him/love him anymore. Now, if they were trying to keep Will's feelings a secret, making it more subtle in that area might make sense. But them choosing to remove Mike's line and make him more subtle as a character doesn't make sense unless there's a deeper truth about Mike that they're intentionally keeping hidden from a lot of the audience. That Mike knows El isn't interested in him anymore and that maybe, S5 will have El break up with him again.

then the reunion

Mike and El...don't kiss. Even though they both almost died. Now, we all know El got character development concerning her lab trauma- she disobeys Brenner because she is more than just a girl with powers, she is a human being but he treated her like a monster. this is why I think the fact that Mike is paralleled to Brenner is so important- because he also appreciated her only for her powers. I think they didn't kiss then and there because El realized she won't be happy in the relationship if Mike only appreciates her for her powers.

And the reason why the vines tighten around El's neck when Mike says "I love you" is because she knows he can only say it because she got her powers back. that's my theory at least. Oh Jesus this is- a lot. I really hope I didn't miss anything. Bonus fact: Mike and El being referred to as Romeo and Juliet isn't romantic- Romeo and Juliet are star-crossed lovers doomed to fail. and Romeo actually loved Juliet's sister Rosaline.

also im going to tag this as byler so there's a smaller chance of milevens coming after me

[itsryuworld]

when we talk about byler...

yes, a lot of people know this but i've always thought that byler stands for mike and will but jonathan and nancy as well. that's bc there's a lot of parallels between them and that's something, you know. byler applies for both ships and they really do.

if is it true that the duffel bags made that last scene on porpuse and jancy is endgame, then i have no doubt that mike and will are gonna be endgame too in s5 bc they always showed the similarities in both ships.

nancy/mike was in a relationship with steve/eleven and both couples had troubles with that. nancy in s2 bc she wasn't in love with steve and mike in s4 bc he couldn't tell her that he loves her.

nancy was on a trip with jonathan and then she realized that was in love with jonathan. mike, you know, was on a trip with will (and the cali gang) and obvioulsy something happened there between them bc we had that amazing van scene with will's monologue abt "the heart".

jonathan was in love with nancy before they started dating officially. we already know that will was in love with mike since they were kids.

jonathan/will left this feelings aside and tried to save that relationship with steve/eleven bc he cares for nancy/mike and want she/he to be happy even if is not with him.

if we look into other shows, every time there's a love triangle it is always the second person who actually becomes the true endgame. some random character has a boyfriend/girlfriend and then they meet someone else and fall in love and that's it. we saw this with jancy bc steve was her boyfriend first but she choose jonathan. and if mike has a girlfriend (eleven) and he's going through a lot lately that might means that his relationship is about to get over too.

in s4 both "love triangles" were introduced again bc even if we didn't had the confirmation about will's sexuality and feelings abt mike, we knew that he was in love with him and his stuggles were adressed very clearly. somehow it was showed as a love triangle bc mike and eleven were separated the whole season.

we've been said that will's personal struggles are gonna be important in s5, so his feelings for mike are gonna be important too. why they would do that if it's not reciprocated? why it would be important to adressed his love for mike just to be rejected? it doesn't make sense, really. mike and eleven's relationship wasn't ruined bc of will, but bc they went far away from that "puppy love" and now they're growing and finding out that they don't match as a couple. if stancy was an "official couple" in s1 and they broke up, why it wouldn't be the same for mileven?

in s4, will was introduced as a possible love interest for mike bc he's in EVERY mileven scene the whole season. every scene was focused on will's feelings, not mileven. eleven and mike were separated and will was there for mike. we've seen that mike can't balance between his relationship with eleven and will, he needs to lose the other to be with one of them. this means that mike HAS to CHOOSE one of them. so, yes, will was FINALLY introduced as a love interest for mike. the SECOND one.

why they would put a love triangle in a relation that is supposed to be "endgame" and they already "fixed" their problems at the end of s4? why they would create another problem in their relationship just to be solved at the end of s5? why they would introduce another love interest for mike just to make him choose eleven at the end? that would be useless to the storyline. it wouldn't make sense. so, will has been introduced as a love interest and they need to end some plots (the painting, will's possible -or inevitable-confession, the airport scene, mike's attitude in cali, mike's fake monolgue, etc.) or it would be a huge plot hole. they can't push this things aside in s5, right?

jonathan was the SECOND love interest in nancy's romantic life, and she choose him. will would be the SECOND love interest in mike's romantic life, and probably mike's gonna choose him too.

so, if jancy is endgame (as we can see on the last scene of s4), that confirms that byler is gonna be endgame too bc jancy is practically byler as well.

[kaypeace21]

I believe that byler is an endgame

but why would they spend 3 seasons winding up with mileven?

People REALLY need to pay attention to the shows the Duffers cited as huge inspirations to them. Cheers,dawsons creek, freak &geeks did exactly what the Duffers are doing (and the Duffers said these shows inspired them)

. Cheers for over 5 seasons built up the pairing of sam and Dianne- had them break up in the s5 finale and then in the last 2 eps of the 11th season have them get back together and once again break up explaining for the 100th time they were wrong for each other and brought out the worst in eachother . Cheers would build up multiple pairings (Frasier /Lilith (s4-11/broke up in s11) , sam/Dianne (s 1-11, broke up in s11 permanently) , rebecca /sam (s8-10) Rebecca/robin (s8-9) -these pairings lasted for multiple seasons and they all broke up! They built pairings up for multiple seasons but showed throughout the show why those pairing in cheers could never work out in the long term. The same Thing happened with almost every pairing in Dawson’s creek (they’d build up multiple pairings up -sometimes for multiple seasons- sprinkle in good but also dysfunctional aspects of those relationships- and then break them apart for good ).

Also in Dawson’s creek 2 characters (a rich girl and poor guy with daddy issues) date and breakup- but both of their gay brothers get together and are endgame instead of them (cough jancy vs byler). One of the gay guys (the rich one with the book smart sis) even dated the main girl (Joey) for a while before admitting he was gay and that he was in denial (while dating the main girl for more than a season ). In D.C even the main guy(Dawson) / girl (Joey) don’t end up being endgame (despite teasing it for all 5 seasons) . They did this with a lot of couples in the show. Honestly, the Duffers pretty much borrowed this idea of showing pairings with issues and breaking them up -but toned down how long they’d bait them . Like 11seasons of showing dysfunctional couples date -ick. And Dawson’s creek ... my god it had a literal love octogon/ love webs (so many love squares/pentagons/ and on and off relationships). The 1 adult couple broke up and I’m not exaggeration 4 times, and Dawson got back with 2 of his girlfriends like so many times. And ugh I’d say each (of the 4-5) main characters dated at least 4 people -and each of those relationships lasted for like 20+ eps each... and then after all that build up -break up ). That’s not even including the people the main 5 or so characters would date for like 5-6 eps . Thank god it was toned down compared to Dawson’s creek or cheers. i can’t imagine the frustration watching those shows during its airing 😂

Freaks & geeks (set in the 80s)was also inspo.14 y old Sam who is bullied and called “homo” “queer” etc throughout the whole series - he also obsesses over a cheerleader girl for the whole series and in the second to last ep of the series- they finally start dating  and he realizes they have nothing in common and says “it’s boring. all we ever do is makeout.She likes nothing i like. We can’t talk to eachother. We never have fun.” And he admits he only keeps dating her cause everyone would call him “crazy” to not date her. sam and her are also said to be “from different planets” and “different species”  just like mileven in s3 lol.  The gf of  sam also says before they dated she saw him ‘like a sister’ (like El asking mike if he’d be her brother in s1, before they date). And after this sibling comment various characters -encouraged the couple and said they would be good together (before they dated-like what we’ve seen in st with mileven and other ships ).Sam eventually decides to not cave to peer pressure- and breaks up with her. Meanwhile sam’s sis (is a straight A student, who is initially into a popular guy and starts hanging with the cool kids).  After getting over the first (popular) guy, she later dates another guy- a music-obsessed-stoner-guy  with a cruddy dad...and she breaks up with him (like jancy?). That couple was even called ‘romeo & juliet’ before they broke up-similar to mileven being called “romeo & juliet’ before their breakup. plus r&j were never in love... just like mileven.

All 3 shows had the main guy/girl date but not end up with eachother in the end . And both shows -would build up several pairings that looked like endgame but would show faults in those relationships and would have them breakup (because those pairings were never that healthy together). Which I believe is what they’re doing with jancy, jopper, mileven and lumax (explained in my analysis here all the evidence for why I don’t think they don’t end up together). I mean there’s many reasons I listed in the analysis but you think it’s a coincidence - jancy, lumax, mileven , and Steve/rando girl who rejected him in s3-all incorportated spying on their love interest ? you think the duffers think that’s good to have all these romantic pairings spy on eachother? When in the show they canonically have the us gov (villains) spy via phone taps, and hidden recorders, and cameras? Brenner used El as a spy for his own gain ? they even call the mf a ‘spy’ (which the characters perceive as the  main villain)... i don’t think the mf is  actually villainous but that’s off topic).The point is narratively equating spying as something ‘wrong’ by characters our main cast of heroes is against. But having that same cast of heroes partaking in spying themselves … specifically on to their romantic partners- and not also showing it as a negative. But romanticizing it? Would be quite hypocritical. And a HUGE narrative oversight.

Also build up?

S1- mileven kiss right after el asks if he’ll be her “friend” or “brother”. Has others compare el to mike’s sibling /cousin. Hint Will is gay . Have hints mike is queer too/ and cares deeply about Will. Constantly mention how el physically resembles Will/a boy. Parallel mileven to ted/Karen who were “never in love”. Have Nancy and mike verbally compare the jancy/stancy love triangle to mileven/byler . And at the end of the season mike writes a story for Will that likens the 2 to han/leia. Flo says about jancy/Jon “ only love makes you that crazy and that damn stupid”. (Which flo wasn’t entirely right about since jon punched Steve for insulting his family- for Jon it was familial love -not romantic love. But put a pin in that phrase)

S2- was pretty much byler season (and mileven barely interact that season). Byler say they’d go “crazy together”. But el’s new catchphrase is she’s “not stupid.” They Compare mileven to luke/leia (siblings that kissed) . Ref ghostbusters and parallel byler to the romantic pairing of Dana /venkman (but have el just be a ghost and mike a ghost buster which isn’t romantic but the opposite) .parallel mileven to hopper/el. Have el spy on mike, el hurt a stranger cause of unhealthy jealousy, have mileven dance to a song about a possessive spying/Stalking ex gf . Throw in mileven burns like “they’re not in love they’re not even from the same planet.” (El being et ref) . Have mike say annoyed “a bond ?! (Scoff) cause you shared nougat?! “ (egos like s1 ) “. Mike saying after knowing max for a week “hate you? I don’t even know you?” (He knew el for a week too so no way he loves her -cause he doesn’t know el , just like max ) . mike even criticizes his friends’ instant attraction to max saying “you haven’t even spoken a word to her.”Dustin saying “ I don’t have to . I mean -look at her.” Which makes it even more suspicious that mike was into a girl who multiple characters said looked like a boy (specifically Will) in s1. Have El watch a soap opera (all my children) and mimic the scene of  erica kane and her love interest michael. Which in the soap opera-isn’t endgame, and ended with some stalking after their breakup.

S3- mileven is finally dating : multiple characters (lucas, Will, Hopper, dustin,Max, etc) in the show dislike and verbally complain about them together . In cheers all of sam’s friends hated him dating Dianne and would vocally complain about it (similar to joyce they even clapped/cheered after 1 of their many breakups) . Mike is horrified by the spying(that mileven fans romanticized in s2) , el is happier single and neither is heartbroken over the breakup. They date for 2 eps and then breakup . Mileven being together inhibits El’s character arc from s2 (aka she went from wanting to explore the world and leave the cabin in s2 to see her friends, to ignoring her friends and cutting herself off from the world in order to stay in the cabin all day to make out with mike for 6 months - she would literally lie to her friends about curfew to return to the cabin and kiss mike -going against her ‘friends don’t lie’ mantra from the past 2 seasons too ). Mike canonically doesn’t trust her / doesn’t believe in her ability to make decisions and lies to her and never apologizes for lying. And el doesn’t apologize for spying . They throw in more gay hints of mike & Will. Mileven is called “bullshit” like s2 stancy . And Both pairings in the show kissed a bunch and said “I love you” (but they weren’t endgame). They also contrast s3 mileven scenes to s2 byler scenes and have byler win out. And once again parallel mileven to hopper/el and Karen/ted. As well as paralleling and likening Mileven to stancy in numerous other ways (besides the “bullshit “ line) . They also parallel mileven to stobin (both are straight baits) .They parallel the stobin confession to the mileven one -both confessions have them sitting on the floor, both girls have bandages on their legs, and both confessions are interrupted by dustin. Also both Steve/mike use the terms “crazy & stupid ” to confess to robin/el. But unlike Will who agrees to be “crazy “ with mike .El confused , asks “ what makes you crazy?” And robin says she didn’t have a crush on his “stupid hair”. el even says in reference to mike “there’s more to life than stupid boys.” Showing how el/robin don’t have romantic feelings for the boys-like the flo phrase of s1. Unlike Will who after fighting with mike calls himself “stupid” over and over and rips up the photo of him and mike where they promised to go “crazy together.” Even Steve says in s2 stancy should should “pretend to be stupid teenagers” in love. Emphasis on “pretend”. And when el says she loves mike “the first I love you” plays -the only other time that song plays in s3 is when robin rejects Steve (cause she’s gay.) cough cause mike is gay too.

There’s a lot more in each season (that illustrates mileven was built up -but not as a positive couple but a problematic one that was never was in love to begin with ). But I’m trying to keep this short . You can read this post here where I go in more depth about all of this .

S1-2 builds up the problematic ships (but showed good and bad aspects of their dynamic) . like the spying of jancy, lumax, and mileven or the jealousy. of Hopper in s2. In the s2 finalie they have them kiss or hug/exchange romantic glances. And in S3 we see the after math of this with all the couples officially dating - and they show all the couples issues at the forefront . I already talked about mileven. But, Lumax broke up 6 times (they dated for 6 months- and every month they dated max dumped him ). Jancy fight in the opening of ep 1 and don’t understand each others issues (sexism/poverty-and Jon’s issues with his dad) . And neither supports the other in their passions of journalism & photography.Nancy is also called “nancy drew” who in 1986 (year of s4) before going to college dumps her long term highschool bf (who helped her in many of her past mysteries/novels ). Their relationship was also shown as complex and somewhat dysfunctional because of both parties -before nancy drew dumps him. And (even if not dating like the other pairings) jopper almost go on a date in s3. Joyce was trying to hide the fact she was moving, Hopper was horribly jealous, and all they did was yell and argue.Murray says to joyce regarding hopper “he’s a brute... probably reminds you of a bad relationship” (aka lonnie/Joyce) . They even have Joyce watch a cheers ep- which directly compares jopper to (dianne/Frasier) who weren’t endgame in cheers but a rebound .  Hopper /fraiser both drink chianti . Fraiser asks dianne to marry him/Hopper asks Joyce on a date-both women stand them up. Or when Joyce asks Hopper out she calls her self ‘detective byers ‘and Hopper name drops miami vice. Which had an on and off again relationship for several seasons- of the male /female detectives.The relationship faded out as Gina realized they mainly got together when one or both needed someone. Crockett was very protective of Gina, and had some jealousy when Gina was involved in relationships , but was the first one to be there for her when things went wrong. And they realized it was better to not be together romantically. Heck seems like all these couples have negative film/tv parallels... lucas in s2 mentions not liking winston in ghost busters cause he came ‘super late’ (like Max). in s1 disses michael myers (which Max dressed as). And at the end of s3- lumax dress identically to eric/donna from a ep of that 70s shows (in the ep  eric/donna were broken up).

 (s3 was marketed as the “summer of love” and “summer love” is a euphemism for flings that don’t last.) s4-5 Will probably show good healthy ships/break up the problematic ones from past seasons .

So first 2 seasons focus on the unhealthy ships / and the last 2 seasons focus on healthy ships. S3 the middle season would be considered the turning point -and why none of the popular ships (assumed to be endgame) came off looking that great (compared to how they were presented in s1-2) .

[kaypeace21]

The Duffers use of music proves byler is endgame (music-analysis)

The Duffers in an interview said that they choose songs for the show very deliberately -sometimes spending weeks on Spotify to find just the right song to convey an emotion/context of a scene. Songs in all seasons (but especially in s3) were used to show how characters are feeling- or just an action they’re about to commit.

For instance, Karen when she’s about to meet Billy at the motel-  feels apprehensive and wants to get out of it (since it would hurt her family) and she was just flirting with Billy as a way to escape her own issues, about her life. She never flirted with Billy for the end-goal of “getting him.”

They even use “cat’s in the cradle’ which could be shown as a way to illustrate the inappropriate age disparity between Billy/Karen.

Other examples-

Right before the boys run away from the lingerie store- the lyrics are literally “I just walk away” XD

Jim when he looks at Joyce- the lyrics are “she’s got you.” ( cause he’s in love with her).

-And Jim after getting Mike to not come over to see El, (by yelling at him) sings…

Joyce after she sees Bob’s drawing fall to the ground and then crouches to pick it up.

And songs also illustrates how Nancy feels about her job (with her sexist co-workers). As the morose lyrics of “I’ll be working here forever” play as it zooms in on Hawkins post -as Nancy rushes inside.

As well as  her excitement -about investigating a new case. As Jancy leaves and the very on the nose song  of “get up and go” begins -as they get into the car.

Billy when he pulls out chloroform (from a perfume bottle).

El after dumping Mike (and smiling about it) XD

So all the byler stuff I’m about to mention proves byler is endgame.

So yes, the fact that the very first lyrics that play when we see mileven kiss for the first time  is “Just a little uncertainty can bring you down”- reflects that (just like the others, the song reflects Mike’s true feelings). The song is from the album “boy in the box (cough closet)”.

And we know this is how Mike (not El) feels about their relationship because he begins to sing the song right after this lyric. It mirrors how when Will danced with a girl (who owned a rainbow hair clip) the lyrics were “every smile you fake.”

Mike continues “And nobody wants to know you now. And nobody wants to show you how.So if you’re lost and on your own. You can never surrender.” He fears that if he isn’t straight everyone he cares about will abandon him, and that he’d be lost and the only one ‘like this’ -all alone.But he can’t ‘surrender’ the false-idea of being in love with El (out of fear).  El even says to “stop” and tries to cover his mouth to prevent him from singing and Mike asks “What you don’t like it?” and El just says “No!”.

Which may be a purposeful juxtaposition to how Robin came out- and instead both Robin and Steve sang off-tune happily together- while El covers Mike’s mouth and tells him to stop singing. When Mileven kiss at the end of the season the song ‘the first i love you’ plays. The same song that plays when Robin comes out to steve (to illustrate the juxtaposition).

What’s interesting is ( right before the mileven kiss) we see a zoom in shot of a picture of Will and a rainbow . Like that’s Will! He has light brown hair (not black) and Will is the only one associated with fire and has drawn himself with fire in the past.

And since El has Mike related-stuff all over her room, and barely knows Will. Mike probably lied saying it was supposed to be him- which is why it’s above her bed.And we also see that based on it’s placement Mike is facing the Will drawing so he can see it  (cause we see El in front of the poster and Mike sitting opposite of her during the 1st kiss) . 

And during this transition the lyrics read “cause just a little more time could open closing doors” Which could be hinting at byler becoming a thing later - when (after some ‘time’) they both become ready to actually admit their feelings/sexuality - despite the other probably doubting the other has feelings for them.

I mean we even see an illustration of Will & the text of the name ‘Mike’ written out next to a rainbow-heart. And 2 other drawings next to the rainbow heart drawing (that are covered in red hearts). XD

(*for those who can’t see Mike written out in the transitioned will/mike pic)

However, what’s interesting though is the one other things he took down from his wall. In S1 Mike (before he even met El)  has a heart sign, with a red heart being propelled by a rainbow. Then in s3 it's gone from his wall when he dates El (cause he's trying to repress the fact he's gay). Why El has a drawing that says Mike (with a heart also propelled by a rainbow.) He can't use El to escape the truth. His rainbow follows him everywhere even when he tries to hide it (from his basement wall and himself) -  and when kissing El!Aka he tries to take it down (like he pretends to be straight). However, in the first ep of s3 when Mike is making-out with El (trying to project his feelings for Will on to her by looking at the Will drawing while kissing) we see a emergence of the heart being propelled by a rainbow (in El’s room) as a drawing.  signifying Mike participating in compulsory-heterosexuality,  and the fact no matter how hard he tries- he’s not straight!

Also El’s reaction to the song - hints that this isn’t actually her mixtape. But one that Mike made for her. or Will made for Mike (since jon makes mixtapes and prob taught him how- Will in s3 gave a mixtape to Dustin so it would not surprise me if he gave one to Mike).

So similar to the drawing, the mixtape hints at byler’s feelings

  ‘I can’t fight this feeling’ (which mileven makes out to later). Actually indicates Mike fighting his feelings for Will. And how he’s been trying to fight his feelings for Will, all season.

Besides the lyrics themselves- the singer literally went on record about the song’s meaning . Which is about a boy being in love/pinning over his friend of many years and never thinking he had a chance at being with them (and being afraid he’d ruin the relationship if he confessed)- but slowly thinking he could  be with them (and that they might feel the same way about him) . And in the song the 2 people AREN’T even together yet!

“Oh, I can’t fight this feeling any longer. And yet I’m still afraid to let it flow. What started out this friendship has grown stronger, I only wish I had the strength to let it show. I tell myself that I can’t hold out forever .I said there is no reason for my fear ‘Cause I feel so secure when we’re together ‘.You give my life direction. You make everything so clear. And even as I wander I’m keeping you in sight. You’re a candle in the window on a cold, dark winter’s night. And I’m getting closer than I ever thought I might”

This makes no sense for mileven who kissed after knowing each other for a week and who didn’t have a long established friendship, beforehand. And who also are already together (and not afraid to express their ‘romantic feelings’ for each other).

Then in s2, mileven dance to ‘every breath you take’ a break up song about a stalker ex. The writer of the song also has said many times “it’s NOT a love song.” The duffers obviously knew that. Lumax also danced to it and Lucas was called a ‘stalker’. El also stalked Mike in s2 (all that stuff milevens found romantic- El watching him without him knowing. Mike says he was not ok with it in s3). And in s3 he said not to do that and she just says ‘i make my own rules’. Not to mention Nancy teaching Dustin how to dance is a direct parallel to Mike teaching El. 

Mike also tries to act like Dustin, and  forces Will to dance with a girl (who’s wearing a rainbow hair clip). Trying to be a good sport like Dustin is about lumax. And right after this we see Dustin look sad about Max/Lucas dancing and Mike (next to Dustin) look sadly at Will/girl dancing in the same exact frame as Max/Lucas. As they switch between these 2 shots to emphasize their sadness/jealousy.Then they both sit down (mirroring each other) on the verge of tears before Nancy and El show up to comfort them and distract them.  As El once again (presumably) wears Nancy dress. Mike “you cant go with your sister… i mean you can but it’d be really weird.”

Also in regards to Will- when I heard they were going to have the song ‘Never ending story’ I wondered if they were going to re-contextualize one line in particular to be a hint at Will’s queerness. And shock- they did it! XD

The lyric is “ Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds and there upon a rainbow Is the answer to a never ending story. ”

And of course Will is the one with a secret- that is ‘rainbow’ related. And they pan to him during the “secrets” line. I think Will is less in the denial phase than Mike is and already knows he’s gay and in love with him.

And this wasn’t a coincidence because when Lumax makes fun of Dustin they sing the lyrics incorrectly as  “The mirror of your dreams. Rhymes that keep their secrets…” And it pans to Will AGAIN!

We see Will obscured in shadows to represent he’s “hiding”.

And then he appears in the light, looking sadly at D&D as the lyrics , “rhymes that keep their secrets” is sang (again).

And we see he’s specifically looking at the d&d game sadly and about to give it away- since they zoom in on the game title (before he places it in the “donation” box). 

Because the d&d game is used to reflect his desires (like a “mirror”) . It’s the ‘mirror of his dreams’- to be with Mike. Cue Mike saying “ what did you think,really? That we were never gonna get girlfriends? We were just gonna sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives?” And poor Will  just responding with “Yeah, I guess I did. I really did.”

This lyric about the mirror is NOT in the original song. It was used once again to establish D&D as a romantic symbol for byler. Just like how they zoomed in on d&d right before the romantic “crazy together” speech.

Mike in s3 says “Blank makes you crazy… y’know like the word (love).” Flo in s1 says “ Only love makes you that crazy and that stupid.” Cue Will calling himself “stupid” 4 times (after Mike says they won’t be together playing games for the rest of their lives-and ripping up the Halloween pic , out of heart-break).

(x)

So again right after we see the zoom-in of the game (another romantically coded scene happens after). Will puts the game in the ‘donation’ pile - and Mike isn’t happy about it.

Mike: “WHOA, dude, that’s the donation box.”

Will: “ I know, I’ll just use yours,  when I come back. (pause) if WE still want to play?”

( translation: “I love and want to be with you but I’m not going to pursue you and get my heart broken again. Because even if I feel like you love me… I can’t trust my own instincts about how you truly feel anymore. If you want to play this ‘game of love’  with me you have to initiate/participate in the game properly.” Mike when fixated on El even says it was a cool campaign but  “we just weren’t in the mood right now.” and  also says to Will “c’mon, let’s play for real”  but Will storms off (not thinking that what Mike said was genuine).  

Mike : “Yeah, but what if you want to join another party?”

(*cough, the other ‘species’/girls, or just someone else: girl, guy or otherwise)

Will: “Not possible.”

(Will will always love Mike, and  admits he wants to be with him for the rest of his life).

(x)

And we actually see the Hopper’s Monologue (where Mike is shown)- reflects what Mike said to Will earlier. Mike does want to love Will but he’s just scared of changing their relationship into something romantic- and even though a part of him doesn’t want things to change, he’s still afraid that Will will move on from him as they both get older. “I’ve been feeling distant from you. Like you’re pulling away from me or something” (Will does this both figuratively/literally). I miss playing board games every night (d &d)”. “But I know you’re getting older, growing, changing. And I guess, if I’m being really honest, that’s what scares me. I don’t want things to change.”

Also the lyric “ Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds and there upon a rainbow- is the answer to a never ending story. ”

One way or another Will’s secret (of being queer and/or being in love with Mike) will eventually come out. And that’s the answer to this “never ending story” between Will & Mike. Their love story. I mean who else is associated with Will’s story and has loads of rainbow symbolism - and has rainbow symbolism that  specifically connects them to Will?

*Lol don’t even get me started  on analyzing how in s1 when Mike thinks Will is dead- Mike hugs his mom and the lyrics are “and we kiss as though nothing could fall. And the shame.” Which is queer coded and written by David Bowie- and during the s2 “freak” speech- Will even says he’d rather be friends with Bowie than Kenny Roggers.

People need to realize no one is a bigger shipper of byler- than the Duffer brothers themselves! XD

[kaypeace21]

why is there so much denial of Will being gay?? Like, nothing Will has done has shown him to be anytging but possibly gay. Like, nobody thinks he'z gay because he's a nerd that doesn't have a girlfriend!! We think he's gay because of all the fucking subtext!!!!

There are a few reasons for this, and they’re all (for the most part) rooted in homophobia. 1) There are those who (may or may not) notice the subtext, but ignore it with the excuse of “he’s too young; stop sexualizing him!”. All while shipping lumax, and mileven. Whether they want to admit it or not, this is homophobic! They view (subconscious or otherwise) being queer as inherently sexual, dirty, and adult. And that only straight relationships can be pure and innocent and based on compatible personalities. Straight kids can have innocent crushes (but in their eyes) queer kids can’t- they may not even exist, to them. 

 2) There are some mileven shippers (who whether they want to admit it) hate Will, because the possibility he has powers or is gay- threatens their precious het ship. Because a lot of them don’t see El as her own person (just a part of their ship) or a vessel for being a badass with powers. They don’t appreciate her for the nuanced character she is.  They either get angry at the idea of Will being gay or having powers, or are only happy with him being queer if he’s sad and in an unrequited one-sided love/ or is single forever. Or they’ll say “why don’t you just ship him with someone else… like Dustin?” Ignoring the fact Dustin hasn’t been queer coded like Mike (or had romantically coded scenes with Will), or that people ship byler for Will and Mike, not cause it’s simply m/m. I mean, can you imagine byler shippers saying ‘Just ship El with Dustin, it’s a guy and girl… it’s practically the same thing”? No, of course not! It shows their bias- and how they feel privileged and entitled to their straight ship even though there are millions of similar ships in media to choose from- unlike queer ships which are far and few in between. However, we’re supposed to be the ones who pick another option- and are told our ships are ‘all the same’. Whether they are aware of this bias, they consider queer ships a joke, and all the same.

3) Those who relate to Will and his struggles,  hate the idea of relating to a queer character. There is a reason why shows like ‘Will &Grace’ in the 90s were popular, but even today the second a character who people assumed was straight is revealed as lgbt+ viewers get angry! It’s because they feel ‘tricked’ into liking, relating and empathizing with a character that they would otherwise have immediately put in a ‘box’ and  distanced themselves from . Whether they are aware of it or not, they would immediately attribute stereotypes to them and never try to empathize with them, because ‘they’re gay, and ‘how can I relate to that’? They don’t want to relate to them (because subconscious or otherwise) they think being gay is bad or just too foreign.They don’t see queer people as full-fledged people. They’re just gay- nothing more.

Which is why when they angrily say “he’s just afraid to grow up, HE’S NOT GAY!”  They are essentially saying a gay, abused kid, who has ptsd, and was violated by the MF (and was also hinted m**ested by Lonnie too) can’t be afraid to grow up, since he lost his childhood. Only straight people have these type of human-fears and characterizations!

Forget the fact, that Will also wouldn’t want to grow up- because than he’d have to acknowledge his sexuality (at a time where all you heard about gay men was they were evil , mentally ill, going to hell and dying of aids as a punishment by god). Not to mention Will’s ptsd and the fact he lost 2 years of his childhood on top of that.He even says “I’m not … going to fall in love” (not convincingly) , right after the movie date with Mike.

4) They’re so used to straight media, and everyone being presumed straight and having media catered to them (the straight audience)- That they’ll ignore or miss every hint there is a queer character. 

So what are the hints of Will being gay (or at least- some other lgbt identity.

Called many homophobic slurs  since s1 ( specifically ”queer, fag, fairy, and gay”) by his dad and bullies. Jonathan in s1 tells Will to “not like things just because people tell you you’re supposed to, especially not him” ( ‘him’ referring to their dad). Is positioned behind a rainbow apple poster in the av room (ref. to Alan Turning the gay creator of computers), dances with a girl with a rainbow hair-clip, has rainbow bandaids, has his mom says she’s ”so proud” (lgbt+ pride ref) of the rainbow ship he drew . When Will disparages himself as a “freak”, Jonathan asks Will, who would you rather be friends with-  David Bowie (who was openly bi since the 70s) or Kenny Rogers? Will says Bowie, and Jonathan agrees saying “see, it’s no contest”. In the pitch to netflix the Duffers described Will as having “sexual identity issues”. In the leaked s2 snowball script it says “he’s not looking at the cute girl- but Mike.”

All of s2 directly paralleled ‘romantic s1 mileven scenes’ to ‘supposedly platonic byler scenes’. No joke, they had identical scenes, with almost identical framing and dialogue, but it’s all dismissed as friendship (even though the scenes are identical).Byler was also  paralleled to Jancy, Stancy, Jopper, bob/joyce and others. . You can headcannon Will as whatever you want, but like it or not- Will is queer and m/m! We could debate his exact queer sexual identity , but Will was never written and will never be written to be ‘straight’! Stay mad!

If Will was Wilma, the majority of the fandom would be byler shippers. Think about it! Mike having byler scenes that are identical to s1 mileven scenes, and then additional unique byler scenes. Mike staying by Wilma’s side 24 hours a day for several days (not even changing clothes), carrying her out of the hospital, grabbing her hand (with a zoom in shot),constantly asking her if she’s okay at least 5-7 times, putting his arm around her twice, being the only one who could tell something was off with her (and it wasn’t her normal type of quiet). Calling and running all the way to her house and banging on the door to check on her, desperate. Proclaiming “i’m the only one who cares about Wilma!” Watching her sleep cause he’s so worried, that shed scene reminiscing about how they first met in perfect detail, saying “I asked, I asked if you wanted to be my friend. You said yes, you said yes. It was the best thing I’ve ever done. (like a marriage proposal)”  The “crazy together” scene. Them being close since they were 5 vs the girl he knew for a week (but is somehow in love with?). If the witness said about El in s1 , “ same height… it could be the Byers girl”, instead of ‘boy’ (pointing out the resemblance). Mike getting into fights and getting upset (almost crying) about the bullies insulting Wilma. Mike having a whole binder of her drawings and caressing one of the drawings, after he thinks she died.  Being the only one of her friends to stay awake at the hospital, waiting for her to wake up- so he can see her and hug her first. Almost everyone would be team byler if Will was a girl- they probably would of started shipping it the second Wilma stared at him and was the only one who didn’t lie to him, in the first ep! Another parallel to El! 

And again think about s3 if Will was a girl.They paralleled the (comedic) mileven breakup vs (the sad/serious) byler breakup. Then Mike just complained and burped on the couch vs apologizing to Willma multiple times/even going into a storm to apologize a 2nd time (and to ‘talk’). Willma having a breakdown over the fight vs El laughing and high five-ing Max after.The shed vs the pool shed scene- “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “you’re the most important thing in the world to me”, “blank makes you crazy’ (as El stares confused) vs “crazy together’ (where Wilma says ‘yeah, crazy together). Mike going on ‘movie dates with Willma all the time’ right after making out with El. The last mileven kiss where Mike has his eyes open the whole time, doesn’t kiss back, and says he doesn’t remember saying “I love her” to El (and doesn’t say ‘I love you’ back). Right after having a talk with Wilma about playing games when she comes back (the crux of their fight). Mike getting excited that he’ll be able to visit El and Wilma on Thanksgiving and them visiting him on Christmas (those are holidays where family usually introduces their S.O.) Having the last scene of Mike,  be him looking back at Wilma’s house, and have that whole monologue in that scene be about “feelings changing”, and then he goes to hug his mom like the s1 byler scene where he thought Wilma was dead. And that’s not even all the scenes- and every time byler won by a landslide. If Will was a girl, it would be obvious writing on the wall, that Mike would eventually choose Wilma over El by the end of the series.

But since they are 2 boys, we’re delusional, because queer kids don’t exist … apparently.