#character were the most painful they could’ve possibly been for that specific character. and rome in particular

[brookheimer]

from the succession podcast it sounds like kieran thinks roman has successfully pushed down the voicemail/possible guilt about logan’s death and is genuinely like .. not thinking about it, which i find really surprising honestly. is that really not going to come back? trying to figure out whether this is a “pre-grieved” situation (read: obviously a failing attempt at repression) which was my original take, of course, but the fact that kieran says, like, “i’ve actually thought about that” makes me think it’s not something that will come up in future episodes — if repressed guilt/fear/self-loathing ab possibly causing logan’s death is part of roman’s ‘arc’ this season, why would kieran say like ‘oh i’ve actually thought about this!’ like, that kinda makes it sound like it never comes up again, so kieran’s come up with his own take. but i mean… we’re supposed to think roman “yeah i pre-grieved” [one episode later] “i’m dead. i’m gone. it’s over for me” roy successfully pushed down the fact that his last ‘interaction’ with his dad was calling him a cunt over voicemail (his first time standing up to him Ever) which logan may or may not have heard before his death — and may or may not have CAUSED that death (we know the phone was found in the toilet, after all)??? successfully pushed it down my ass

[revolutionary-demosthenes]

Two unrelated questions—1: Do you support the theory that John Laurens’s (and possibly Alexander Hamilton’s) death was assisted suicide? 2: What do you think life would be like if Alexander Hamilton and John Laurens could’ve gotten married? I love your blog, and I am totally going to never ever bored in House #7.

These are great questions! This is going to be a pretty very extremely long post, particularly the bit about your first question, so I added sub-sections to make it easier to read. I hope this is helpful!

TW: Mentions of possible suicidal and self-hating thoughts and feelings. If anyone reading this has had these sort of feelings, please reach out to someone and get help. Do not give up. You are loved. You are needed. You are worthy.

1: John Laurens and possible assisted suicide

This first question is difficult to answer, and there are lots of theories on it. It can also a very painful topic to discuss. Please take note of the TW. If this post is going to be triggering or upsetting to you, take care of yourself and skip it.

Let’s review the facts and circumstances around Laurens’s death to start.

After assisting Hamilton with taking redoubt 10 during the battle of Yorktown, John Laurens traveled back to South Carolina to again try and pitch the South Carolinian delegates for his black battalion. This was his third attempt, I believe.  Again, his idea was quickly shot down, and it may have made it worse that that was what everyone was expecting. A letter from George Washington written July 10th, 1782 states, in a somewhat cynical tone perhaps more reminiscent of Hamilton’s worldview, 

“I must confess that I am not at all astonished at the failure of your Plans.That Spirit of Freedom which at the commencement of this contest would have gladly sacrificed every thing to the attainment of its object has long since subsided, and every selfish Passion has taken its place—it is not the public but the private Interest which influences the generality of Mankind nor can the Americans any longer boast an exception—under these circumstances it would rather have been surprizing if you had succeeded nor will you I fear succeed better in Georgia.”

John Laurens was also collecting intelligence for General Greene, his commander at the time. 

It is worth noting that most of Laurens’s time down south after Yorktown was spent trying to find military glory, which he did not achieve. He led several unsuccessful or insignificant skirmishes with the few remaining British soldiers.

Laurens also had just heard of the death of his wife, Martha.

He was confined to his bed with malaria, but heard that there was going to be a fight by the Combahee river on August 27, so he literally got up off his sickbed to fight in what has since been dubbed a ‘small skirmish.’

The British soldiers had been tipped off about the continentals coming. Laurens, who was leading a small detachment of soldiers, knew this. He could wait for more soldiers to arrive, or he and his men could start fighting.

Three guesses as to what he chose.

John Laurens had visited the Stock family the past night, and “enjoyed the company of Mrs. Stock and her daughters.” (John Laurens and the American Revolution, by Gregory Massey)

Now, I know there are many theories on this, but in this post I’m going to be examining two main ones. Firstly, that John Laurens’s death was not suicide, but instead another desperate grasp for glory, and alternately, that his death was to some degree planned and/or expected.

Theory A: John Laurens’s death was not assisted suicide/planned/intentional:

In very simple terms, this theory is mainly supported by the fact that John Laurens (and Hamilton, for that matter) were honor-obsessed and both had a thirst for military glory. Both were needlessly reckless in battle from the very start. Lafayette observed of Laurens at the battle of Brandywine, “It was not his fault he was not killed or wounded, he did everything that was necessary to procure one or t’other.”

Some evidence that also supports this is that Laurens’s battalion idea failed several times. He may have wanted to prove himself by becoming a famed fighter like the warriors of Greece and Rome that he admired. 

His dash to the Combahee can be seen as in line with this. Opportunities for fame in battle were running scarce and Laurens didn’t want to miss any possible opportunity. You can also apply this to why he went ahead instead of waiting for the rest of the men during the battle. It would have been seen as more courageous to face them head on, outnumbered. 

John Laurens was often overshadowed by his father, Henry Laurens. Military fame of the right amount could’ve possibly elevated John his father’s social status.

Also important to note, what Laurens did on August 27th was not out of character. So one could make a compelling argument that even if Laurens was not planning to survive the war, the battle at the Combahee was not necessarily the one he wanted to go out on. Especially because it was such a small action, not a glorious stroke of military genius.

So I do think that it isn’t unreasonable to read John Laurens’s death as accidental, however, if you are asking for my specific opinion I do think this next possibility is more likely.

Scenario/evidence in which John Laurens’s death was assisted suicide/planned/intentional:

(This is where the TW applies most heavily, just one last warning.)

John Laurens had a privileged life in some ways, certainly. He was the son of an extremely rich man, got part of his education abroad, and generally had all the inherent advantages to being a rich white man who was the eldest son of an even richer white man.

But his life (much like his friend Lafayette’s,) though seemingly tranquil and privileged, was filled with grief and loss from a young age. John Laurens’s mother, Eleanor Ball Laurens gave birth 11-13 times. Of these children, only five lived past early childhood. When John was about three, one of his closest playmates, his older brother Henry, died. And this was only one of many times (the exact number unknown because of the disputes of how many children Eleanor actually had) that John lived through the death of a sibling.

And there is one sibling death in particular that almost certainly hit John the hardest. His 10 year old brother Jemmy, while they were in Europe, and while John was technically in charge of him, fell and fractured his skull. Much like the Hamilton’s spending the night with a dying Philip, all John could do was try and comfort Jemmy while waiting for the inevitable.

Then of course there was the Francis Kinloch break-up. Obviously horrible. Then (possibly as a result of that breakup) getting a girl pregnant and being forced to marry her. 

America. War. Alexander Hamilton. Love. Keeping the love hidden. France. Yorktown. The last attempts to become a war hero.

It is fact that Laurens and Hamilton based their relationship off Ancient Greek, Roman, etc. gay relationships. In this tradition it was traditional to be reckless in battle to impress your lover. So maybe it makes sense for Laurens to act insanely reckless when he and Hamilton are fighting together. But why would he keep acting that way after Hamilton goes home?

While on the subject of Hamilton, some of the most compelling evidence for John Laurens’s death being a suicide is that he clearly struggled with self-hate, likely because of his sexuality, for a long time. Think about it; he lived in a society that was not just unaccepting of same-sex love, and particularly acting on same-sex love, but it was literally a crime and being caught could result in extreme punishment.

Furthermore, John Laurens, as namesake, eldest son, etc, was under massive amounts of pressure to be perfect. To not bring shame to the family. 

When John was in SC towards the end of his life, he had been away from Hamilton for more than a year. It is possible that without the gratification of the relationship (i.e., they are together, interacting on a day-to-day basis) John began to feel more unsure of their relationship? We do see that when John was away from his lovers, the relationships grew more distant and even unraveled. Yes I’m talking about Francis Kinloch now. But also as more time went by and Hamilton was back home in Albany and John was still in SC, their letters become less frequent. (Or more frequent but destroyed or lost. Honestly though JCH why???)

I also think that Laurens may have been worried that he and Hamilton’s distance was the only reason they could keep up a romantic relationship. Could Laurens have felt that once he “put on the toga” or joined congress, he and Hamilton would have to be just friends because of Hamilton’s wife and child? Judging by this line from a letter from Hamilton to Laurens, “Your impatience to have me married is misplaced, a strange cure by the way, as if after matrimony I was to be less devoted than I am now,” we can infer that Laurens may have at first have been supportive of the idea of Hamilton having a wife, perhaps because he thought that Hamilton was just using her to appear straight. In this letter, Hamilton also does allude to suicide. He tells Laurens, “For your own sake, for my sake, for the public sake, I shall pray for the success of the attempt you mention; that you may have it in your power to act with us. But if you should be disappointed, bear it like a man; and have recourse, neither to the dagger, nor to the poisoned bowl, nor to the rope.” I think it is extremely interesting that this comes in the same letter as the one where Hamilton tells Laurens he is getting a wife. The attempt Hamilton refers to in this passage is the attempt to free Laurens from being a prisoner of war, but I wonder if it has some sort of double meaning. 

I also believe it significant that Henry Laurens seemed to get very anxious when John sent him a letter from Geneva at mentions suicide. From John Laurens and the American Revolution: “John’s haste perhaps explains an ambiguous passage that slipped into one of his letters. He referred to ‘two people the most addicted of any in the World to Suicide.’ Alarmed by these words, Henry sent an emotional reply: ‘What can be meant by addicted, to an Act, which can be perpetuated but once & no Man’s devotion to it can possibly be determined from anything short of the Commission? But, my Dear Son, I trust that your opinion on that Question is So firm, that you are armed with Such irrefragable proofs of the Impiety as well as Cowardice of Self Murther, as puts you out of danger of being made a Convert to Error, by any Man be his “Rank and distinction” ever So great, or by the finest thread of declamation tickling the ears and & fatally Captivating the Hearts of Giddy & inexperienced youth’”

The context of the passage from John’s letter is unknown, but his father acts so defensive and seems to be reassuring himself that John would never do that in his letter that I wonder if it was already a topic that Henry worried about. If this is the case, this suggests that John knew was queer from a young age, not just when he met Francis Kinloch, (and that letter is from around that time, just as a side note.) and/or that John had had mental health issues before this time.

Also significant: moving forward to August 1782, John was sick. He was bed-ridden. And he knew the fight at Combahee river was not going to be big. It was a small foraging party. All the redcoats were going to do was basically steal some flour. But still, he dragged himself over there.

He led his men forward even though they knew the redcoats were ready.

Then he immediately was shot down.

So, --dear anon who is probably horrified with the length and long-windedness of my reply--, here is the theory that makes most sense to me:

John Laurens had been having mental issues like depression for a long time. When he was with Francis Kinloch they alleviated slightly, but when Jemmy died and Francis Kinloch broke up with him, they came back full force. Since being with Kinloch had made John happier for a time, he decided to seek out more love. Wait a minute, John thought, if I can love a woman, that’d be killing two birds with one stone... the love will make me feel better, and it may cure me of my forbidden love for men.

But when John got Martha pregnant and was forced to marry her, I doubt that made him feel better. So he wanted to go to America and fight in the war. He believed in his countries independence, and this would be a way to go out with easy glory on the battlefield, should he want to.

He met Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton managed to convince John that their love wasn’t a sin or a sickness, and they were happy together. 

Then Hamilton told Laurens he was getting a wife. He knew that this would be hard news for his Laurens, so in his next letter he made sure to make clear that they could still love each other.

But Laurens did not think that would be possible, once he realized that Hamilton really did love his wife, and was not just using her to appear straight. Laurens also knew that even if they did continue their relationship after the war, both he and Hamilton would feel guilty for what they were doing, especially considering that Hamilton really did love Eliza so much.

When the black battalion plan failed for the last time, it brought feelings of failure and hopelessness to Laurens.

When Laurens heard of the death of his wife, it brought back the guilty feelings for getting her pregnant, especially because she had fallen ill trying to bring Fanny to meet her dad in France.

When Laurens visited the Stock family the daughters again reminded him of his inability to have love for women. They also perhaps reminded him of his own wife and daughter who he had essentially abandoned in Europe.

With the war nearly over, Laurens decided if he wasn’t going to survive this war, he had to fight in some battles. So he got off his sickbed to go fight. 

He knew it would be risky to go ahead without waiting for the main army during the small action at the Combahee, but he had done things that reckless before. And if he was going to die in battle, this would likely be one of the last opportunities.

To conclude this answer: I do support the theory that Laurens’s death was to some degree suicide, with assisted suicide being the closest label to what I believe it was. However I do think it was a complicated death that doesn’t necessarily fit perfectly within any label. I believe it was a combination of mental issues partly borne of being queer in a time that was unaccepting of same-sex love, the failure of his plans for abolition, being reckless in battle regardless, and, if he was going to die, wanting to die a war hero.

I think these factors together led to a premature death that was not planned exactly, but probably pre-mediated upon. What I mean is, Laurens wasn’t going to try and get killed, but he wouldn’t be cautious or try particularly hard to not get killed. 

As for Hamilton, I honestly think it could go either way. Though I tend to lean toward Chernow’s answer, which is that it was not suicide, just stupid. (Like, Hamilton, your son literally died by shooting at the sky in a duel you are taking your own advice that failed horribly??) The main reason I believe this is that Hamilton had something Laurens lacked; a family whom he loved very much. Even though his political standing was slipping, I don’t think Hamilton would’ve wanted to leave his wife and kids.

Anyway, I hope this answers your question. Now for the much less depressing answer to the question,

2: What do you think life would be like if Alexander Hamilton and John Laurens could’ve gotten married?

I’m slightly unclear on whether you mean if they could’ve gotten married back in the 1700s or whether you’re asking for the modern AU I think is most accurate.

Assuming you mean if they could’ve gotten married in the 1700s, I think that they would have as long as it was main-stream and socially acceptable. I think they would’ve been very happy together, and I like to indulge in the fantasy of President Laurens and VP Hamilton.

I think John Laurens would not have died. I think he and Hamilton would have worked in the government together. I also do not think Hamilton would have would’ve dueled Burr.

John Laurens and Hamilton would’ve written together about 1,000,000,000 pamphlets against Jefferson and Madison. 

The only duel would be Laurens vs Jefferson.

And they would’ve lived to a lovely old age together, adopted some kids, and lived happily ever after.

Never mind this is also depressing.

Thank you for the kind words about my blog and the great questions! Yes, if you are bored, house 7 is the answer. 

If anyone has other asks for me, feel free to, well, ask them! And if you would prefer a short answer just tell me so, I won’t be offended!