#cwilbur crit

[tboyquackity]

"are you the concierge, of this area? are you like, the cleaner?"

[feralsylph]

the urge to write a full blown research paper on how lmanburg shares similarities to jonestown and the cult of personality that surrounds it and cwilbur

[barzfrommarz]

c!phil: killed his suicidal son, it’s implied c!wilbur was ignored or maybe even neglected as a child, infantilizes him even as an adult

c!wilbur: infantilized his son probably as a direct result of how his own father treated him but still cared deeply for his son even after c!fundy abandoned him

believe what you want to believe I guess!

[starlit-bawka]

actually one more thing from me me tonight. if you make this shit about ctntduo im thinking very angry thoughts about you

[cupcraft]

One of these days I really wanna write a vampire sbi au that isn't just classic dark sbi (no crit just I want different kinds of vampire fics/prefer different fics) like I want vampire comedies. I want exile to Doomsday vampire au, I want to write cwilbur as this Lone Human Guy or even ctechno. I want vampire au drama/period dramas. Like I have so many vampire au ideas! It's an unexplored tag imo.

[fagtainsparklez]

c!techno and c!wilbur will be like “i was as clear as possible about my intentions during pogtopia” meanwhile c!niki is standing behind them with a metal bat and a thirst for blood

[stellerfly]

okay finally actually watching cwilburs apology to cfundy. bestie you know you're not supposed to say "augh this is so hard :(" when you're apologizing to someone right. you can see how it gives off the wrong impression right.

[tboyquackity]

@carosbee : 🐺 - Should Wilbur get a redemption arc?

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ok iwill try to be brief (1/80000). i think this is actually a rlly complicated question w plentiful angles but if ihad to condense MY personal thesis: i think practically everyone deserves redemption, and cwil is no exception. if it was up to me, he'd never see the ppl he hurt again. but the ppl tht love him will always love him. idk if he deserves that. but they do. so if he's gnna come back, v v v bar to the floor least he cn do i acknowledge how truly, truly, truly fucked a lot of wht he did to them was + needs to put an unbelievable amnt of work to deserve their grace and forgiveness no if ands or buts. let me explain ☝️ rest under cut bcs i'm the humble hating nutjob. warning fr cwil "crit" + cwil "neg" (in quotations bcs these r just his canon actions) but i do wnna be transparent that this talks abt said shitter actions n if thts too much fr you yr welcome to scroll away :] gen this isn't a slight do what ygotta! also warnings fr canon typical toxicity and suicide

cwil is capable of being. extremely monumentally cruel. and this isn't a unique trait, many of the dsmp characters are, but the consistency and selfish root and target of his actions iit's like. i feel like i'm in a mass gaslighting campaign or smthng i like never see ppl rlly look at the shit he's done and contend w what it means.

objectively, he's a antagonist in all this, there's really no arguing here. in the pogtopia-manburg war, he's a bad guy who wants to blow up the crowd w him multiple times. in revival, he's a tense force tht imposes on people. the full quote isn't "ctubbo doesn't wnna be like cschlatt." it's "ctubbo doesn't wnna be like cschlatt, and ctommy doesnt wnna be like cwilbur." they're both on the hitlist, like. what does tht say. but, of course, crucially, fr both, he's also a victim. his antagonist role doesn't mean he's not sympathetic, it doesn't mean he wasn't being set up, it doesn't mean he wasn't sick and scared and delusional, it doesn't mean that nov16 wasn't a deeply horrifying suicide attempt. it's all awful and terrible, and he didn't deserve that. and tht can coexist w the fact that the totality of his targets, the power he wields over them, how conditional the remorse he shows can be.* (i won't even get into his wack ass apology streams.) like. you surely get what i'm saying. all those actions he chose to do can be awful too. it can just be two things.

*and ithink thts wht makes ghostbur so effective,,,at least did b4 those stupid ass retcons but idgaf, if it spits in the face of its own internal consistency and lore and betrays the core of the characters, idon't have to hold onto it. so taking this as it was written: ghostbur says he wants to distance himself frm alivebur. the point of that is alivebur n ghostbur ARE the same person. even if it's blurry, even if the intricacies of limbo make things harder to explain. but tht fractured sense of self, a coping mechanism to even be able to live w yrself...he wants to seperate himself in the sense of separating his actions, not wanting to be hated, not wanting the weight of it on his shoulders...there's a Lottttt of scenes where ycn p easily parse tht ghostbur DOES remember more thn he lets on, he just doesnt wnna look at it. he cant bare to. it's tragic.

i'm bringing this up bcs up to this point, iwas v much still on the guys side even if he was. intense smtimes, to put it mildly. ycould rlly feel tht sense of remorse and pain and iwas like ok...this will all. mean smthng. but for it to do that, it needs to contend! it needs to take his mistakes seriously while understanding the pain that lead to them, it needs accountability and sympathy and an actual point, and instead it delivers on fuck all. it wants to have its cake and eat it too, telling us the audience oh! isn't he sooo sad! please extend your understanding! while still having him over and over do worse and worse actions tht "being sad" don't erase. while not wanting that understanding to extend to the people he harms.

and it doubles down on that all through the revival arc.

if i may be so bold. ithnk ppl smtimes overstate or overlean on cwil mental illness as sm barrier. it's always this nebulous third thing tht conveniently absolves him of everything,,,even the smallest, more coherent moments robbed of their agency bcs its more palatable fr him to be sm poor baby woobie rather than sm jackass who smtimes just makes the wrong fucking choice. which imo is the more interesting version of the character, as is for all characters!

and ithnk tht v revival arc then also recontextalizes his earlier actions...ythink its just the circumstances, it's largely, maybe, probably just that, maybe, and sure, he's being selfish and shitty, and awful, and he's still responsible fr a lot of it, but he's struggling, he's hurt, it's fucking SAD! i feel for the guy, it all just fucking sucks!! and that hope is still there. and then you're forced to see tht it WASN'T like sixty flukes, it wasn't just this continuous, continuous set of mistakes, it wasn't smthing he... cwilbur just fucking sucks. ok? he just fucking sucks sometimes. he'd short sighted and self serving and places his own needs above others. over and over and over.

he abandoned his son b4 and after revival. he disowned fundy, mocked him for his spy efforts, fucking. waterboarded him? even if it's more comedic on his end, this was a v serious moment fr cfundy! and tht never comes to fruition bcs cwil Doesn't Respect Him. can you imagine if any other character did this? he watches his kid kill himself infront of him, just like his own dad did to him, and then left him behind. never checked on him again despite saying thts all HE wanted fr HIMSELF. cwil got revived and he never even looked for cfund, despite cfundy counting on it, preparing fr a grand total of nothing. even cq feels so bad abt it, he lies to cfundy's face to spare his feelings abt the fact cwil has been popping into lnv to see everyone BUT cfundy. wow.

he CHOSE to scapegoat tubbo, demean him, and physically punish him fr disagreeing him on nov16! he wanted the destruction to hurt ctommy the most specifically, but whn ctommy rejected being on stage in the middle of a pre-planned ctech attack, he was more than happy to settle fr ctubbo!! LOL. (and i'll get into how he treats ctommy more just hold on a second.). cwil was more than happy to put this kid in this position knowing ctech would shoot him in the face. which is the second time he's done that. btw. three if we wnna count the pit and a different target. which i do. LOL. you're a good kid, and an even better spy. i'm going to put you in a position i instigated and i consider dangerous for my own gain. you're not a coward, tubbo, are you? give the signal so i can blow up the crowd with you inside it. 😁🔫 guys.

ctubbo has his batch of "safe targets", ppl he cn talk to and confront knowing they won't hurt him, and cwilbur just isn't one of these people. he made the kid CRY upon revival. he put him in a position where his feelings were more important thn ctubbos grief and fear, both b4 and after death, GETS HIS HUSBAND KILLED over literally nothing, then gives him the empty gesture of an empty country after, smthng ctubbo never wanted, who stays quiet and small and yessiring all the way, in a direct parallel to all the other times he's disrespected him, as well the country being a parallel to the time he set it up fr him to get shot in the face. twice. need i mention. smthng tht perma-killed cschlatt. btw. which iwill get to ☝️ as cschlatt and cwil are canonical parallels, and it provides insight to my point here. they r v v v important and crucial to eachothers arcs, and yet the way they're treated by the larger fanon is completely different and erm. well. like. ido fear it's relevant.

ppl looove to invent shit fr cschlatt, say he's this n that, crazy n volatile, take scenes where he's doing fuck all and interpreting it in the most bad faith way possible to reverse engineer a point. it's shitty n bad fr a multitude of reasons, which i've touched on quite a few times, but it bcs extra stupid bcs erm. uhm! cwil is actually the one doing all that shit. like. on screen. on screen! HE'S the one who actually had a son, who he abandoned and is awful to! HE'S the one who HIT TOMMY fr disobeying him in a srs context like ihave the clip if ywnna act crazy!!! cn you imagine another character doing shit like this? HE PERMA-KILLED JACK W HIS OWN TWO HANDS IN A PARANOIA EP! which again, that paranoia and illness- it's awful, it's sad, he's not well, same as other characters but. like. is there nothing to unpack here? he never apologizes to the guy! he never feels bad! he never visited him whn he came back! he didn't pass it off (like he was capable of doing w the pit), he didn't perma-die in the grief/confusion of it then ask in genuine shock how smone else let that happen and then forget he ordered the execution in the first place, fully thinking the person was still alive. cwil just did it. and nobody cares! what does that mean? how am i supposed to feel abt that?

and tommy oughwmmy goddddd. how much sympathy am i supposed to feel when he spent the entire three months ctommy was trapped alongside him in limbo, in SENSORY DEPRIVATION, insulting him, demeaning him, saying he deserved to be dead and this is all there is and leaving the kid horrified of him, of himself. cschlatt is right there with them, w the same disorders he has, and he's perfectly capable of leaving the kid alone and still being held in a "looking up to" status by ctommy even up to the last streams. how am i supposed to feel when he set sm shit abt pogtopia up to hurt ctommy the most as possible? insulting him demeaning him? ctommy says himself tht cwil scares him, tht he wants to protect others frm the manipulation he recognizes he's done to him, admits in a moment of panic tht he's actually v hurt cwil threw away his sacrifice w his discs back in the day fr his ego! he himself says this b4 cutting himself off! and none of this even scratches the SURFACE of wht cwil is willing to do to this kid he considers an extention of himself.

on that point. why is it so easy fr ppl to discard that on an objective level, cwil wanted ctommy to "understand wht he feels", and tht means becoming goddamn suicidal. he wanted to break him down, he wanted to twist the knife, he was willing to say anything and do anything as long as ctommy suffered so HE could feel justified in his OWN suffering. this sweet little boy who fights for him and does anything he asks, who looks up to him like he's his world, who puts himself in danger over and over again as long as he can make cwilbur safe and happy. EVERYTHING ctommy does is fr him. and cwil chooses HIM to lash out on. he finds every angle to humiliate and isolate this boy who he raised like oughmny god! this isn't a partners conflict w ppl of the same age w no real power over eachother, this is a grown ass man who can't stop punching down at the kid HE raised tht HE made his family tht HE made unspeakably codependent on him!

how am i to take him manipulating ctommy into not entering lnv, to not hang out w smbody who has proven over n over again to be in ctommys corner in a "him vs me" framing? smone who point blank calls out and gets incredibly upset on ctommys behalf fr the awful things cwil does to him? why SPECIFICALLY is smone like that a threat to cwil? is weaponizing the pit tht HE built and HE encouraged to paint cq as crazy, whn he's canonically v weak not a threat and not willing to hurt ctommy in any srs context, while HE was the one who pushed an actual dangerous fuckhead to beat him into the ground? (and again, this parallels the festival, ik he's manic and sick, but then tell me why he did it another time before and another after!!) wht abt the time he forced ctommy into the prison in sm elaborate plan to make HIMSELF feel better, destroying ctommy's most important property on a lie so the kid CRIES CONVINCINGLY ENOUGH HYSTERICALLY ENOUGH? actively putting a target on ctommys back then ABANDONING HIM COMPLETELY, LEAVING CTOMS SOBBING AND BEGGING FR HIM TO NOT LEAVE HIM TO THAT? are we actually SERIOUS?

so what, are all these things RLLY abt just cwil hurting Himself? none of this is allowed to be his fault, none of it affects the other characters? is this framing of his entire character actually worth something out of a deliberately obtuse way to declaw whtever he does? no guys, it isn't him hurting others, its just at himself! like 1. you cannot do both things at the same time, and 2. does tht suddenly erase the v real damage he does to them? 3. IT'S NOT EVEN TRUE.

and b4 iget sm beastly ghoul on my house, lemme be clear. ☝️ i thnk mental illness objectively changes how smones actions should be read and taken as, and i DO think mental illness cn just be an "excuse", whatever the hell tht means fr some. it's all case by case. like sorry if smone is so delusional they don't know wtf is happening, there's no reason to punish them bcs WHY. wht do you gain frm hurting smone who can't see the full picture in that way. and yes, ik sm ppl cn cling onto things a touch too much but. yget what msaying, right?

the point i'm trying to make here is tht even tho thts my belief, i still v much think the ppl affected are allowed to feel as they may. a car accident may be an accident, but the ppl injured are still injured. and i think if ycrash a car you should maybe pay the damn insurance! or accept you did it! or at the v least feel sm kinda bad abt it in a way tht isn't exclusively self pity! like fawk!!! and esp when you do it COHERENTLY! ON PURPOSE! SELFISHLY AND CONSTANTLY AND MALICIOUSLY!!! LIKE FAWKKKKK!!!!!

so to close my thesis, again. i do think he's still, still, despite everything, despite EVERYTHING, i think he can be redeemed. if it was up to me, he should heal on his own goddamn time, his own new set of people, and he'd never fucking see these kids again i swearrr to god i'd kill him. and i didnt even touch on other ppl he acts crazy to!but. idk. it's crucial tht these like sweet-hearted, warm-hearted, forgiving, family first, the love was there, we choose eachother ass little freaks would still accept him into their life, even if it took sm work, even tho ithink they'd be better off never seeing his ugly ass again. so i'll just stand over him w pliers and if he does anything crazy mgnna start prying out his knuckle bones one by one i'm 100% srs. and i personally will never ever ever ever be fucking w him again. EVER.

[tboyquackity]

🪦 and/or 💥 and/or ♟️ for ask game ^-^

🪦 - are certain characters functionally dead?

i'm not too sure whag this means or how to answer i fear OTL so sorrey. i think all characters are have an opportunity to impact things especially because of the limboisms + ghosts. i guess maybe alyssa? especially cuz her bigger tethers like callahan also aren't around much so theres less opportunity for her legacy/memory to be carried. wait speaking of ghosts where are cvik n clazar's ghosts. hope there's not an evil asshole who would purposely keep them from leaving frm smwhere to make sure they don't tell anyone what he did to them. lol. lmao. l

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💥 - should c!niki apologize to c!clingyduo?

i mean i think so? cniki did super scapegoat and try to kill ctommy in a slash srs way and as interesting and well written as it was that's still naottttt. v cool. and uhh. also she helped release cdrm from prison. i donnie think she's irredeemable at all and i don't think she had to grovel but. zero concern abt the fact she's directly assisting a group of overpowered assholes in releasing sm shithead abuser who ruined HER AND ALL HER FRIENDS LIVES so he can run around and do it again is pretty crazy. imo. to be clear ☝️‼️ ilove cniki i absolutely do but like. cmon.

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♟️ - was c!wilbur a dictator for trying to rig the vote?

oiuwhUWGH I'VE BEEN WAITING TO BE ANNOYING ABT THIS. HELLO. OK.

to start, no, i don't think he's a dictator for it at all 👍 i think dictator is a pretty specific thing that people LOVEEE to throw around incorrectly in dsmp discussion. BUT, while he may not be not a dictator, he IS a MASSIVE LOSER 🗣‼️

my hot take abt it is that uhh. i think people tend to have an incredibly reductive view abt cwilbur. specifically in wilburian circles which i've complained abt lots before but. idk the strange incentive to sand down all the shit that makes him interesting or deeper to form this bland, more easily palatable/defendable mush of a character makes me insane in my head.

the reason i bring this up here (and how it relates to my point/the prompt) is: acting like ctommy was solely and selflessly cwilburs only motivation for making lmanberg is. imo. a retcon. if i am to be honest w you. because it's Not Textually True.

like yes, he does deeply, deeply love tommy, that's undeniable. yes, he clearly built it w him squarely in mind but it was also for everyone! lmanberg was a family! his literal actual SON lived there. they all loved eachother, they wanted a place for themselves. and it was Also for power and Also sticking it to the man!! (And completely justified to be clear!! he was being smarmy abt it, of course but thts not a bad thing!! he was 100000% right.). not to even mention the cphil letters and what that entails. and to act like it can only be the one that makes him look "the best" is. annoying.

compare to ceret. if we act like ohhh poor baby eret was just manipulated into betraying lmanberg and that's the end of it no need to dig deeper. man shut UP. IT'S LAME. things can be complex! she was manipulated, textually, of course she was, but she was also selfish! she betrayed the people she loved most, and she wanted the crown, the kingship, he wanted power. and of course, you can't ignore that in a server where power is one of the only ways to achieve security, for both himself and her friends, it makes total sense tht she would go for it! it can be multiple things.

another example i'll use is uhh election era q to narrow it down. during the election arc, he super wanted to help people!! he was earnestly pitching that they wouldn't need an iron fist bcs they could just all learn to be niceys to eachother. he really took what ppl said to heart and wanted to make lmanberg the best it could be, away from someone who he thought would abuse his position and WAS abusing his position. and he was also a HUGE TOXICA CUNT. he stabbed people and shot them and was a huge bully, and more often that not was encouraging and participating w cschlatt's more assholey actions when he also. an asshole. because they both are. 😭 q wanted power. again, power = security in the dsmp. so you can rlly understand his throughline. while also going hey, shooting people with horse tranquilizer is also super his own stupid evil little choice. things can overlap.

so to the ctommy is cwilbs only priority there line. if it's all for him. if he secures the country at the expense of two of his little brothers lives.

for the lack of better term, why does he leave it up for grabs for his ego.

there's no power to secure at that point. they won. there's no thing he needs to overcome right now, there's no current threat. (to be clear cdrm is always a threat but at the time no one is really aware how far he's willing to go and the seeds he's planting) and again, i understand that he was paranoid, and wanted validation, but point blank canon this is a fully lucid bad decision.

and even then, if you wanna say ohh well maybe he didn't realize smone could stop him maybe he never realized smone would intervene. that's still. annoying and bad. 😭. to not even give the people the chance? i don't think it's irredeemable At All but it's purpose in the narrative is undoubtedly short sighted and selfish.

even Then, he had another chance to bag it smhow. and he fumbled that too!

(pretty good breakdown of what i will be adressing can be found here, w timestamps -> https://www.tumblr.com/stellocchia/661878977008467969/stellocchia-thespoonisvictory-s1-elections)

in the convo, cwilb offered cq the opportunity to do a coalition w him. his offer is they pool their votes together and whoever gets the most votes in between them is allowed to keep the whole country.

cq calls him out, rightfully, and goes hey man. you can act like you think i have a fair shot all you want but you are out of your dome if you think people will somehow vote for me more than they'll vote for you.

cq even tries to compromise when wil falters, and say why dont we split power and run it together. and wilbur tells him NO‼️ even if you believe that cwilbur believe that cq loves lmanberg, which i do, and even if you believe it when he says that he would be ok w it in q's hands, which i don't considering he refuses to meet him in the middle, q Does calls him out for him. he says yr just using me. this is a scam.

and ctommy and cwilb reply 'YEAH IT IS ^__^" like man cmonnnneudhdjk. and that's what makes cq join cschlatt!

so to cut myself off, no. he's not a dictator mm mm, just short sighted and selfish and unwilling to compromise. 👍 unrelatedly does anyone else think it's crazy that in the canonical pogtopia wins au wilbur was gnna jail schlatt after he lost over "commiting voter fraud" (despite cwilb trying and failing to do that as well) and was just leave him there. like. he was also gnna make cq build a second layer of the lmanberg walls and cq was going to leave a secret tunnel in it on schlatts behalf. huh. what. anyone else think that's crazy.

[tboyquackity]

rq another thing i must say...i can get wanting to still like cwilb despite those absolutely horrific final set of streams bcs like. yeah idk. it's terrible. i understand the instinct to want to reclaim smthng frm all that. the probbles i tend to have w that however are: 1. ppl will then go and make him so oc-pilled he's completely unrecognizable, to the shallowing and detriment of every character around him, to the point i wonder wht you even got from the og story in the first place. or 2. trying to Justify the final streams and his actions, and say it's actually super cool and reasonable and not incredibly shitty he did all that. isn't it sooo sad for HIM. that he deeply hurt and then abandoned the ppl who needed him most. which is. uhm. lol.

[tboyquackity]

remember when the final cfundy cwilbur "apology" stream came out and all platforms were full of people going why is cfundy even his son 😅 they should've retconned that it doesn't fit the characters at alllll lmao. even though that was instrumental to both their arcs for fucking years. why do you hate it. lol. is it cus it makes your blorbo look like the fucking worst in the world is that what it is. lmao.

[tboyquackity]

ctnt for the ask game devil emoji

😈🤘 YESS it's so sucks it makes my skin crawl i dont ship it. hater nation rests for no one.

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Why don’t you ship it?

man because it's bad............................................ because it's not good because i'm tired of seeing it no matter how much i blacklist things. everyday i log on and see takes and portrayals so awful and strange and ooc it makes me take genuine pause. who even are these characters anymore i'm asking seriously. completely unrecognizable in the service of the lamest blandest version of a ship ever. the "white fave"ification of wilbur tht notoriously makes my blood boil and the fucking constant racism against cq jesus christ. tht gets in the way too lol!!

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What would have made you like it?

WELL my dark secret is i actually think ctnt is pretty good. in a Vaccuum. if i think of the cwilbur in my head i do get considerably less angry, it's just always tamped down by so much of the gunk around it.

if cq was treated differently and not like an object but a person with opinions and rightful reasons to be angry. if cwilb was treated like a person with flaws and not a sanded down uwu baby ant w rutsack. if the final streams didn't make me want to grab cwilb and like. spin him at mach speeds and swing him directly into the sun. maybe someday in the future i will be able to set stuff aside but rn i'm constantly surrounded by those awful aspects that set me off and there's no sign of any of tht changing so. the despiser i remain 🗣‼️

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Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it?

i do think some of their back and forths are pretty good :] the parallels the l'manbergisms the comedy the desire to prove and be recognized. even the lnv bitchiness was pretty fun until people started lying abt all of it. again, i don't think this ship is awful at it's core (edit: nvm i do now) i just think it's like. a little ruined for me at this point.

[tboyquackity]

and all that fr a UGLY and BRITISH guy too like have sm self respect goddamn

[tboyquackity]

and another thing. not to be guy who hates ctntduo but it makes insane crazy that fr ppl who take the utah ending as smthing good and not smthing absolutely horrific. they looveeee to imagine that cq just misses this dude sooooo much he loves him sooooo bad he'll cross state lines to fuck him bcs that's all he's good for. ok. like #1 cclingy defender wouldn't hunt him through the woods like an animal.

[barzfrommarz]

RIP ladyddanger you were never afraid to say the truth

[barzfrommarz]

sometimes I really am grateful that I was a youtube dsmp fan for most of the hate againts c!wilbur. I don’t think I could handle it