#dapsenlumber

[ardafanonarch]

Excellent addition @dapsenlumber! Thanks so much for finding this. I'll add for any remaining skeptics that the passage about Eluréd and Elurín earlier in the essay is explicit about 'first' and 'second' meaning elder and younger.

Love this source, thank you!

Answer revised to: The best canonical evidence we have says it's Elros.

For the reference of others, The Problem of Ros is an essay (c. 1968) published in The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12: The Peoples of Middle-earth.

Does canon indicate who is older: Elros or Elrond?

Birth Order of Elrond and Elros and Elrond

Good question. My instinct on this was no, canon does not indicate who is older, and indeed further research turned up nothing definitive. (If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please share it!) However, I uncovered a decent hint that Tolkien imagined Elros the elder.

The fact that they are twins at all is not even in the published Silmarillion or The Lord of the Rings, which introduce them thus:

Bright Eärendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion’s mouths; and he took to wife Elwing the fair, and she bore to him Elrond and Elros, who are called the Half-elven. The Silmarillion, ‘Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath’ The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A

Here, the order in which their names appear does not help us as we get both options.

It’s important to note here that Elros did not even exist from the conception of the mythology of Middle-earth. Elrond son of ‘Eärendel’ does not appear in any of the Lost Tales, but he does show up in the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology, the ‘Earliest’ Silmarillion (one day I’ll make post summarising all these texts, but in the meantime Table 2 at the end of this bio has a lot of them!). Elros does not join him until the next version of the Silmarillion,* the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa. Here he is added in revisions to the text. In those revisions, his name comes first (‘Elros and Elrond’).

(*When I do not italicise Silmarillion, I am referring to the whole corpus of drafts. Italicised means the published book edited by Christopher Tolkien.)

The same sort of revision is made to Annal 325 of The Later Annals of Beleriand (referred to as AB 2 and written between 1930 and 1937). Christopher Tolkien notes that his father pencilled a note to change the original passage (which only mentions Elrond) to:

The Peringiul, the Half-elven, were born to Elwing wife of Eärendel, while Eärendel was at sea, the twin brethren Elrond and Elros. The History of Middle-earth Vol. 5: The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, Commentary on Annal 325.

Important! Christopher then notes, “The order was then inverted to ‘Elros and Elrond’.”

Note that the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa is the main source for most of the last chapter of the published Silmarillion because Tolkien did not return to a full narrative of this section of the Silmarillion again. However, they are mentioned in the briefly sketched Tale of Years (1951-52), where it is again stated that they were twins and again they appear as ‘Elros and Elrond’.

[Added entry:] 528 [> 532] Elros and Elrond twin sons of Earendil born.* The History of Middle-earth Vol. 11: The War of the Jewels, Tale of Years, Text ‘C’

*[> 532] means this entry was revised to 532, the date you will find in the timeline on Tolkien Gateway (which defaults to the ‘most recent’ revision). Note that The Tale of Years (the published portion of which only covers the 6th century of the First Age) is actually four consecutive drafts: dates are revised and the entries become increasingly detailed, but each draft ends earlier than the last (e.g. Text A goes to FA 600, Text D ends at FA 527). Most of the timelines you find online attempt to consolidate all four drafts — but worth bearing in mind that Tolkien never finalised these dates.

Finally: upon investigating the source text for that one instance, from the published Silmarillion, of Elrond appearing before Elros, I discovered that this was actually an editorial decision. Tolkien himself, as far as I could find, always listed Elros before Elrond.

Now, this is not, as I said, definitive evidence that Elros tumbled out of the womb first. But I’d say it suggests that Elros was the elder, since I can think of no other reason to consistently list them in this order (it’s not alphabetical, for example). And this, indeed, seems to be the fandom’s general consensus.

But, strictly based on canon, you are free to put them in either order. In fact, if you are someone who only takes the published Silmarillion as canon, you don’t even have to make them twins.

[arrivisting]

wip meme, cont.

#13 for @dapsenlumber

They kissed without skill, hard and heedless. Their mouths came together in a rough access of feeling. The angle was wrong until Fingon pulled Maedhros’s head down, and Maedhros’s good arm hitched him up against him, and then it was better.

His lip was bleeding when they came apart, and Maedhros’s white cheek was studded with red marks from where the gold in Fingon’s hair had pressed against it.

[sokkastyles]

dapsenlumber

Or maybe Jeong Jeong is subtly dissing Pakku

Jeong Jeong is so interesting to me because after leaving the Fire Nation he seems to have such loathing for his own bending because to him it represents everything he hates and wanted to leave behind, and sees fire as capable of only causing destruction and pain. I actually think Pakku and Jeong Jeong are two different interpretations of what happens when you lack a balanced perspective. Jeong Jeong has great respect for the female-coded power of waterbenders but calls firebending a curse (and firebending is masculine-coded). Which, as I said here, is a wrong way of looking at things, just as wrong as Pakku’s gender essentialism. That’s one of the things I love so much about Iroh and Zuko’s narratives, both have a strong theme of reinterpreting masculinity to become non-toxic. There’s an absolutely fabulous video essay on that here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SezGJNNZmtI

[thejakeformerlyknownasprince]

You’ve said before that ex-hosts in Eleutherophobia can have blunted affect such as their expressionless speech. Does that still happen when Tom uses thought-speak, which doesn’t require any physical muscle control?

So. My headcanon about thought-speak is that it doesn't have tone like voice-speak, but that it does convey emotions in its own way. For example, in MM3 Rachel notes that Cassie's thought-speak "was alarmed. She'd heard the guns. But she didn't know... about Jake." Later, when discussing the Holocaust, Ax notes Rachel "[thought-] spoke with no special emphasis. No anger."

If Rachel can tell that Cassie a) heard gunfire but b) doesn't know Jake is dead, then Rachel has a pretty good read of Cassie's mood just from the way Cassie shouted the word "What?". Definitely more information than Rachel would've gotten from Cassie texting her the word "What". Ax noting Rachel's lack of emotion in thought-speak also suggests she normally does have emotion coming through.

Based on what we see in #1 and #33, thought-speak can convey a lot of things voice-speak cannot: images, memories, a sense of someone else's emotions in your own body. But it doesn't necessarily convey tone. We don't see any instances of characters being "shrill" or "hoarse" in thought-speak, even though those are common in voice-speak. In #50, Timmy has trouble generating language, but can use thought-speak fluently. So it's not like talking on the phone.

I headcanon that is why no one can tell when Ax is joking: In andalite-to-andalite communication, intent is obvious by default, so you'd never need to lower and sharpen your voice to get verbal irony across. Galuit can't tell when Jake is being sarcastic (#18) for the same reasons Jake can't tell when Ax is being sarcastic; there are two different ways of conveying it. Ax is like "obviously I willed a certain ironic distance into my words; why is that so hard for humans to understand?" and the humans are all like "bro, when using mouth-sounds you gotta inflect irony."

As to what that all means for yeerk hosts, who sound "flat" (#45) and "slurred" (#2) when talking out loud... Hm. Gotta think about it more.

[sesamenom]

Gil Galad Variations VI

Tag snippets from: @mostvaliantandmostpround, @dapsenlumber, @yellow-faerie, anon

(Misplaced the tag for Magluth-galad and attribution for Fingon + Orodreth, oops)

Gil-galad Variations, featuring all the gil galad theories i've encountered.

[thejakeformerlyknownasprince]

@dapsenlumber

Maybe Jake is average but crumbles under pressure. The basketball tryouts are the biggest thing of his life to date and he can’t handle it

So true.  Because that’s part of the point of Jake, that he’s the least talented guy on this untalented team while also excelling at meeting the challenges thrown his way.  He says his talents lie in basketball and video games — only he can’t make his junior high team as an eighth-grader, and regularly loses at video games to a less-experienced Marco.  That’s not to say he remains that untalented throughout the series; 10 pages later he’s insta-coordinating how he and his friends can maximize their ability to escape a horde of controllers, while running from said controllers.  100 pages after that and he’s directing battle strategy based on a combination of paying attention and winging it.

Anyway, what if he’s getting screwed by the Yerkes (no relation) Dodson Curve?

He’s just wildly mis-calibrated to how hard he should be trying to get on the basketball team, because it’s the hardest thing he’s ever tried to do so far.  This kid thinks he’s “invincible” (#4) and climbs construction cranes for fun (#1).

As @derinthescarletpescatarian​ and @andalitean​ put it: “Jake is the plain mashed potato of the Animorphs.”/ “He isn’t even mashed at first he’s just a boiled potato (the trauma is what mashes him)” (X).  Which is the perfect description of Jake.  He does rise to the occasion, but his actual superpowers are confidence, fast reaction time, faking ‘til you make it, and following the little rules so that no one notices you breaking the big ones.  And at first, that confidence is the kind that comes from the assumption nothing really bad will ever happen to him because nothing ever has.  He has to take a lot of hard knocks before he properly understands when to dig in and when to quit.

[thejakeformerlyknownasprince]

mossadspydolphin

Take as much time as you need. Feel better soon.

ihasafandom

That sucks. I hope you feel better soon, but don't rush it. Your health - mental and physical - is the most important thing.

andsoulbysoulandsilently

Sending you best wishes. Only do this blog if it brings you joy. If it begins to feel like a chore then step away and put your effort into something that does bring you happiness.

euribear

*hug*

c-rowlesdraws

Please take care of yourself! I hope things start getting better for you soon

dymadozen

Hugs!

rorleuaisen

Take care of yourself <3

tomberensonsghost

We love you. Take your time to feel better. Come back to us when you're ready.

ohthat1

We ain't going anywhere. I hope you get some rest.

eyeoftheaxolotl

wishing you well! rest up & don't feel obligated to do this if you're not feeling up to it

as21-7

take care of yourself man💚 sending hopes for you to feel better soon and be able to talk to whatever doctors you need quickly and the medical process treats you well

somewhere-in-the-dungeon

Seconding the well-wishes: take care of yourself, I enjoy your blog but we'll still be here if/when you're feeling better!

goodgrammaritan

Self care comes first!!!

therealslimshady

No worries about the blog! Take all the time you need. I hope you are able to feel better soon <3

trishacollins

We love you. Take care of yourself. We will be here when you are well

unculturedmamoswine

🧡💛💚💙💜

burnishedvictory

Sending you lots of good thoughts. Take care of you first - we'll be here when you come back.

meirmakesstuff

Just sending support. Do what you need to.

lilacnothlit

Take all the time in the world, Sol! I'm where you are right now. May we both heal. Your health always, always comes first.

i-wakeupstrange

Take care of yourself!!!

dapsenlumber

Sorry to hear you are going through that. Please take care of yourself! ❤️

twotwofroote

Take care of yourself. You come first ❤️

jelimore

Sending love.

Hey all, I'll be honest: I'm struggling a lot with my mental and my physical health right now. I'm going to try to keep this blog going, but I'm really low on spoons and I don't know how much I'll be posting for now.

[mostly-mundane-atla]

@dapsenlumber, oh man, Iroh has definitely had coffee and even if it's not his first choice he's definitely had a craving specifically for this or that coffee drink. He's probably helped an overwhelmed newly hired barista at his favorite caffé with his calm, gradual voice and clear, concise instructions, even snagging a beard net from the station by the sink so he can lean into the kitchen and point to the specific machines and equipment for this or that step of the process. When the line finally dies down, and another barista pulls into the parking lot, allowing the newby a break soon, Iroh orders his own drink, plus the newby's favorite, so they can have a hot drink they didn't have to wait for, and drops a ten dollar bill in the tips jar.

I think Iroh, in general, would be good with all caffeine drinks. Except energy drinks and especially when they're mixed with alcohol. He caught Zuko mixing vodka and red bull in his room and poured both down the drain before lecturing him on the dangers of underage drinking, combining energy drinks with alcohol, and especially doing either without anyone who can call for medical help if anything goes wrong, and then reimbursed him in cash after googling the prices of what he threw out

Imagine Uncle Iroh sipping a milky starbucks looking drink and everyone's like "oh?? He drinks coffee? He's cheating on tea?" and he reveals it's actually a london fog or matcha latte under all the whipped cream

[thejakeformerlyknownasprince]

@dapsenlumber has a theory that Berenson is a Tolkien reference, but this is an equally hilarious interpretation.

Racking my brain trying to remember if Jake ever morphed a bear, and if so, what kind? This is because I want to make a really stupid pun, but not sure if canon compliant. I'll let you know what it was, if it turns out I can't make it.

Yes! In #25 all six kids get polar bear morphs. That's the only time Jake uses it, since he misses #37, but he has a bear morph!

[thejakeformerlyknownasprince]

#ot3 #rarepair #(raretrio?)

@dapsenlumber

rareshare?

Rareshare!

ships you don't ship- how about elfangor and chapman?

(i do apologize for the mental image lol)

Oooooh. Honestly, I could see that one! They drive each other nuts every time they converse in canon, it's true, but they're also really fun literary foils. They're both supposed to be relatively spoiled and arrogant going into the war, and both get smacked in the face by its realities before Elfangor makes a wildly selfless decision and Chapman makes a deeply selfish one.

That contrast would be excellent, because I could see it go either way with Elfangor redeeming Chapman or Chapman corrupting Elfangor. Yeeaaaah, sorry Nonny but I kind of do ship this one now that you made me imagine it.