#feels weird being on Cersei's side but Robert is the worst

[allovesthings]

I love (read hate) how I Robert proceed to hit Cersei and then, his first reaction to that is to blame her for that.

We love a good victim blaming abuser in this household.

[astradrifting]

This is kind of inspired by this recent ask I sent to @esther-dot about Jon’s characterisation and Jonsa shippers’ apparent disregard for it, because it made me think of another part of Jon’s characterisation that is really integral to who he is. Mainly, that Jon really loves his brothers. Especially Robb. His rival and best friend and constant companion. Jon envies him, competes with him, buried a formative traumatic memory where he was deeply hurt by him... but ultimately loves him. Complex relationships with his brothers, both the Starks and his Night’s Watch brothers, are a running theme in Jon’s chapters.

Speaking of Jon’s brothers...

Aegon VI and Robb have a lot of potential parallels, actually. The “Young” moniker, red-haired counselors who are also their parents, trained to be the heir to a great kingdom from a young age, the barely younger half-brother Jon borne of their father’s dishonour of their mother… one that they might both have a good relationship with despite that?

The show tried to play with Jon ‘accepting’ his Targaryen lineage through the jonerice romance, very unconvincingly because it was simultaneously undermining it at every opportunity, in what was maybe a half-assed attempt at Pol!Jon (”They’ll all come to see you for what you are” isn’t anything but a threat in all contexts).

Jon will ultimately choose the Starks over everything else, that’s not really a question. But if Jon were to genuinely connect with another Targaryen, it’d likely be easier for him to find kinship with a half-brother than with an aunt - he has a basis for positive relationships with trueborn half-brothers, while the only aunt figure he’s ever known about is a) long dead and b) actually his mother. I think it’d both make more sense and be more compelling for GRRM to leverage Jon’s existing complex relationships with brotherhood by having him interact with and build a relationship with Aegon, than a rushed and out-of-character romance with Dany. 

Jon also is already primed to believe that Aegon is the real deal, that he was saved as a baby, because he’s already done the exact same thing himself - he swapped out a baby of royal blood who was in danger for a common-born boy, and then sent him halfway across the world for safety (side note: if Septa Lemore is Ashara, and if the baby was actually Ashara’s son as theorised here by @agentrouka-blog, that would just strengthen the parallel, because it would be his body double’s mother caring for him, as Gilly has to do for Mance’s son).

They’re definitely going to come into conflict first - politically, Jon will likely be in a position of power in the North by the time they meet, maybe as the KitN through Robb’s will or regent for Rickon, and probably will fight for Northern independence, while Aegon is fighting to be king of the Seven Kingdoms, not 6. Personally, it will be hard to get past the fact that Jon is the direct result of Rhaegar dishonouring Elia, plus that the Kingsguard who should have been protecting her were all stationed in Dorne, guarding Jon’s mother (in whatever capacity). But these interactions, a conflict and eventual friendship/brotherhood between them, would all be a lot more layered than jonerice can really offer. If a relationship between Jon and Dany was truly all that GRRM has been building up to, then there would have been no need for R+L=J - it adds nothing to that storyline, it doesn’t even make it a forbidden romance, because aunt-nephew is hardly the worst incest the Targaryens have engaged in.

It’s almost inevitable that Da*nerys is going to kill Aegon VI/Young Griff in the books, likely by burning him with dragonfire, in the Second Dance of the Dragons. The weird Dragonpit meeting in the show was very contrived, but it does make sense for Dany to meet the ruler on the Iron Throne at least once in a semi-peaceful context. In the show, she used her dragons only to intimidate Cersei, but she didn’t have a personal grievance with her. Aegon is in much more danger during such a meeting. After all she will think he is a pretender, and she doesn’t much care for the rules of safe conduct, as she showed to the envoys from Yunkai.

Dany shrugged, and said, "Dracarys."

The dragons answered. Rhaegal hissed and smoked, Viserion snapped, and Drogon spat swirling red-black flame. It touched the drape of Grazdan's tokar, and the silk caught in half a heartbeat. 

[...]

"You swore I should have safe conduct!" the Yunkish envoy wailed.

"Do all the Yunkai'i whine so over a singed tokar? I shall buy you a new one... if you deliver up your slaves within three days. Elsewise, Drogon shall give you a warmer kiss." She wrinkled her nose. "You've soiled yourself. Take your gold and go, and see that the Wise Masters hear my message."

(ASOS, Dany IV)

"Ah, there is the thorn in the bower, my queen," said Hizdahr zo Loraq. "Sad to say, Yunkai has no faith in your promises. They keep plucking the same string on the harp, about some envoy that your dragons set on fire."

"Only his tokar was burned," said Dany scornfully.

(ADWD, Dany VI)

So Dany will burn the Blackfyre pretender, and everyone will be happy and cheer to see the rightful queen, the last Targaryen, Slayer of Lies, Breaker of Chains, Insert-The-Million-Other-Titles-Here. Right?

Except how would she prove that he’s an imposter? She can’t exactly roll up with an Alt Shift X video pointing out that Illyrio has said some weird things about Aegon. Is Varys going to have an attack of remorse and explain his whole plot, complete with Blackfyre family tree? Or maybe she’ll explain that she went on a vision quest in Qarth and Aegon totally matches up with the vague symbolism that a bunch of drugged up warlocks told her before she set them on fire?

I don’t think it’s going to matter if Aegon is fake or not, and we might never find out either way. The mystery of his identity isn’t his main narrative, and all of his significance to the story and to multiple other characters is removed if he’s proved to not be Aegon VI. Him being proved fake would just make this plotline a weird, unnecessary digression on Dany’s journey to being the righteous and true queen, his death just another #girlboss moment for her. That’s definitely going to be her perception of it, but once she reaches Westeros we won’t have to rely on only her POV of her actions. History is written by the winners, and no one’s going to miss that it’s a lot more convenient for Dany if the boy with a stronger claim than her turns out to have been fake all along. Arianne and the Dornish are definitely not going to take it lying down, and neither is Jon. He’s not going to fall in love with the woman who murdered his brother, especially by burning him alive. ADWD has plenty to say about how much he hates death by fire.

“Men say that freezing to death is almost peaceful. Fire, though … do you see the candle, Gilly?”

She looked at the flame. “Yes.”

“Touch it. Put your hand over the flame.”

Her big brown eyes grew bigger still. She did not move.

“Do it.” Kill the boy. “Now.”

Trembling, the girl reached out her hand, held it well above the flickering candle flame.

“Down. Let it kiss you.”

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob.

“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

(ADWD, Jon II)

Funnily enough, the same fire as a kiss imagery from Dany burning the envoy’s tokar appeared there too, also used as a threat. 

If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. [...] What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

(ADWD, Jon IX)

So Aegon’s death is not going to be a triumphant victory for Dany, after which everyone proclaims her the true queen. It’s likely to just solidify opposition to her, from every corner of Westeros. If it happens during a summit or negotiation, it’d be even more of a tragic parallel to Robb and the Red Wedding; the young king murdered off of the battlefield, at an event where he was promised safe conduct. Featuring Dany in the role of Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister. Tywin’s already died a very undignified death, and Roose Bolton looks to be on his way too.

I think the tragedy of Aegon’s death would also hit harder if we see it through Jon, as a main POV, or at least the aftermath of it. Jon was integral at the Dragonpit meeting after all, and probably would be at a peace summit or negotiation between the leaders of Westeros and the invading force.

In ASOS, there’s a curious lack of Jon’s reaction to Robb’s death. We see his initial reaction to Bran and Rickon’s supposed deaths when he gets back to Castle Black, but he doesn’t even know about Robb’s death until Stannis arrives to defeat the wildlings, and we’re not shown the moment he’s told about it. He barely even thinks about it, not even a mention until he meets with Stannis on top of the Wall:

“Your brother was the rightful Lord of Winterfell. If he had stayed home and done his duty, instead of crowning himself and riding off to conquer the riverlands, he might be alive today. Be that as it may. You are not Robb, no more than I am Robert.”

The harsh words had blown away whatever sympathy Jon might have had for Stannis. “I loved my brother,” he said.

(ASOS, Jon XI)

And that’s literally all we get that is specifically about Robb’s death - the rest of Jon’s chapters, his guilt and grief is about the loss of all his siblings, and the idea of stealing Winterfell from them. It doesn’t really make sense for him to not think about it at all, considering how close they were. This reminds me of how he has a non-reaction to Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion as well, as talked about in this post by @agentrouka-blog. Part of this could be Jon’s tendency towards denial and suppression of all his feelings, but it also points to GRRM explicitly obscuring his reaction - perhaps because he’s going to explore it in the wake of another brother dying a very similar death? One that this time he’ll be there to witness?

[thebluelemontree]

Hiya blue lemon it's me again. Do you have any criticism in the way GRRM wrote Sansa in book1/2? EX:.Sansa and Jeyne are BFF but we amolst never see the girls talking to eachother, and when JP is sex traffikced sansa just forget about her(we could have a scene where sansa try to find what happened to JP or at least grieve for her). Every time sansa appears as a non-POV in AGOT she's been mean and whe we have her POV she's mean for no good reason(SANSA III AGOT). >PART 1<

And the worst is why GRRM wrote sansa goin to Cercei to tell her the "Ned Plans", it's just bad writing, Cercei kill lady so Sansa going to her was OOC GRRM just wrote that to we hate Sansa And in the book it's not explained what "the Ned plans" was(And it was nothing imortant at all, and would make no difference at Ned's fate) so ordinary readers blame Sansa for Ned's death and GRRM does that too in book 2 Cercei put all the blame for Ned death in sansa nd "the Ned Plans" Your thoughts?PART 2

There’s a lot to unpack here. 

I get a sense that in the early books, George was not as comfortable writing female relationships as he was writing male relationships or even male-female ones. I mean, Catelyn has no female friends, no companions like Margaery Tyrell’s cousins, no fostering wards of her own, no correspondences with other ladies except that one letter from Lysa for plot reasons. This is just weird for the lady of two major houses. It is neglectful on George’s part to give most of the important social connections to men. This doesn’t mean he was totally inept at writing female relationships, though, and it does seem like he’s tried to improve upon highlighting the positive in later books.

By comparison, the positive side of the brotherly relationships are presented so strongly that it tends to smooth over the conflicts with many readers. Jon can feel envious and resentful of Robb, but the love and loyalty is always in the foreground. The conflict between Arya, Jeyne, and Sansa does have legitimate character arc and plot purposes, so this isn’t bad writing. It’s unfortunate that GRRM presses down so hard on the constant bickering and occasional nastiness, but he did write some positives (albeit they tended to be revealed in later books) and there are understandable reasons for the dynamics. It was not done in a totally unrealistic way. What’s depicted is a typical and relatable rocky period for that age group, and there was negative adult influence at play. It’s not a permanent feature of the sisterhood. It’s all there if you pay attention and you’re inclined to be charitable toward the mistakes of young girls.       

If a reader is already predisposed to see the bonds between male characters as more pure and more able to overcome the negative aspects, then they probably also view the bonds between female characters as inherently weaker and more fraught with conflict. Fandom misogyny is not GRRM’s fault. That sector of the fandom will always have contempt for girls for being girls, especially preteen girls. They will always hone in on their faults and belittle their virtues. 

I don’t think that is true that we hardly ever see Jeyne and Sansa talking. They are nearly always in each other’s company. There was real friendship between Sansa and Jeyne, because what George does do well with them, is realistically write the way girls cement their bonds. Young girls strengthen their relationship by communicating and confiding in each other. Sharing secrets, crushes, hopes, fears, and pieces of gossip builds trust and intimacy. Jeyne and Sansa do this all the time, even though they can have different opinions and disagree about a lot.  Yes, there is some one-sidedness in that Sansa socially outranks Jeyne and believes that makes her more mature and wiser than her friend. Jeyne is dependent on her closeness to Sansa as a highborn lady and future queen to rise successfully, so she’s not going to push back on Sansa’s dominance. This is also a reason Jeyne sometimes bullies Arya to supplant her as Sansa’s “sister.” When Sansa has something to share, she goes to Jeyne to talk about it. I think it’s hilarious that the girls have a debate over which castle Gregor Clegane’s head will get spiked. Sansa wants Jeyne at her side for these new and exciting events like the tourney. When things get serious and dangerous, they comfort each other. Again, this is not all George’s fault if some readers don’t recognize or value the way girls do friendships.  

It’s stated quite clearly why Sansa tries to not think about Jeyne or her deceased family members very often. It’s fucking traumatic and her survival while among her captors depends on mentally holding herself together. 

If only she had someone to tell her what to do. She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. Sansa was allowed to go riding too, but only in the bailey, and it got boring going round in a circle all day. -- Sansa II, ACOK.

Following her father’s beheading, Sansa was in a suicidal depression for days. She wouldn’t eat, wouldn’t bathe, welcomed drug-induced sleep, and contemplated killing herself. If she thinks too much on those she lost, she falls to pieces. She can’t openly weep and mourn for “traitors” if her life depends on appearing to be loyal to Joffrey. Most of her grief is suppressed inside. This also includes asking too many questions she doesn’t feel psychologically prepared to hear the answer to. She was there when the decision was made to shuttle Jeyne off to Littlefinger; however, she has no idea this is going to result in Jeyne being sent to a brothel and worse. I would also keep in mind that even if she did ask, it’s not like Cersei or Littlefinger would ever tell her the truth. Why would they? Does she really want to hear lies and have to think about what the horrible truth might be when she can’t do anything about it?  When it comes to Arya, Sansa believes her sister escaped on the ship bound for home. She comforts herself with imagining that Arya is safe and free, and that’s enough to keep her going.  

And she prays and sings for Jeyne, wherever she is.

She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. She sang for her mother and her father, for her grandfather Lord Hoster and her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin... -- Sansa V, ACOK.

It’s only until later in the books that Sansa feels emotionally at peace enough to start remembering the good times with Arya and Jeyne without breaking down into tears. We can also see the conflicts weren’t always a thing, and the love was strong with all three.

Sansa began to make snowballs, shaping and smoothing them until they were round and white and perfect. She remembered a summer's snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They'd each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she'd had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she'd slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn't, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing. -- Sansa VII, ASOS.

It was most unladylike, but Alayne sound found herself laughing. For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up. -- Alayne I, TWOW.

So it’s not even that the girls only bond through confiding. They run, play, and roughhouse with each other. It’s interesting that AGOT!Sansa tried to be so mature and proper, but now that she’s older, she’s remembering how good and freeing it was just to be a kid. But let’s not act like this part of the story is over. Jeyne is still very much alive and seems likely to run into Arya in Braavos. We can almost be 100% certain that Sansa will find out the truth about what happened to Jeyne and what Littlefinger did to her (and her parents), then watch out. Sansa will turn all that buried pain into a righteous fury at Littlefinger.  

Now as for Sansa being mean for “no reason.” Um... yeah, LOL. Sometimes she’s just a total unwarranted bitch to her sister, and it’s not meant to be a good look. Sometimes she’s superficial, insufferably immature and annoying, judgmental and prejudiced AND THAT’S OKAY. I mean, she sounds no better or worse than your average middle-schooler if they were of the privileged nobility. Guess what? Sometimes preteens are really like that. Sometimes siblings have ugly, knockdown drag out fights where they say horrible things to each other. Most will grow past those phases and still wind up just as loving and close. It’s realistic and believable. Sansa has flaws, but they aren’t deep moral flaws. She does an amazing job at growing, learning, and overcoming those flaws over the course of the books. In TWOW, she’s warm and affectionate with people, easy-going, nonjudgmental, and genuinely more mature than ever. She took the stick out of her ass and became a happier person for it. What’s the problem? What did you want her to be? Perfect? Unfailingly kind and loved by everyone all the time? She’d be a saint, not a multifaceted human being. Even with her occasional ugly side, Sansa is still a strong, smart, compassionate badass. I don’t care if some people don’t like her as she is written or if they vilify her with their misinterpretations or ignore her strengths. What bearing does that have on GRRM’s vision for her character? He never set out to write any character that the whole fandom would either unanimously love or hate.    

This is not bad writing. This NOT bad writing. This is GOOD writing.

*Sigh* Listen... this whole nonsense about Sansa being to blame for Ned’s demise has been going on since ASOIAF was written on clay tablets. You don’t have to listen to every stupid thing the fandom says about anything. It’s just factually wrong. End of story. This misinterpretation and reader inattentiveness is not GRRM’s fault, because he lays out all the details of everything that went down between Arya, Ned, and Sansa’s POV as it was happening. It’s totally understandable why an upset and frustrated Sansa would go to Cersei, the mother figure she implicitly trusts and admires. She didn’t go to Cersei to betray her father’s plans. She went to the queen to intercede in what she thought had to be some big misunderstanding, having no idea what was really going on or at stake. 

This is not OOC for her to go to Cersei after Lady’s death. The hand that killed Lady was her own father’s, a undeniable breach of trust that wounded their relationship. Ned just doesn’t really do a lot to deal with the emotional aftermath either. Ned and Sansa are very similar in turning a blind eye when confronted with unpleasantness from someone they love. Ned is also at that moment disillusioned with Robert’s failure to do the right thing after the Trident incident. He begs Robert in the name of their brotherly love and the love he bore Lyanna, and Robert turns his back on Ned anyway. Yet Ned immediately goes right back to believing in the best of Robert’s nature, despite all evidence to the contrary. Every sign points to this being a one-sided friendship with Robert being lazy, irresponsible, and completely selfish. Like father, like daughter. Sansa has a very hard time accepting that Joffrey and Cersei are not the people she thought they were, even when she’s seen some cracks. And since she can’t understand her father’s actions and the communication has been shot to hell between them, of course she runs to Cersei with her problems. Cersei can flip a switch and pretend to be kind, loving, and understanding. 

This is so typical of a teenage thought process:  “Dad just doesn’t understand and he’s making a big mistake. I don’t understand why he’s doing this. He doesn’t get how important this is to me. This will all work out if a sympathetic adult steps in and fixes it. Everything will turn out great and we’ll all be happy.” While Sansa is pouring her heart out about how it isn’t fair she can’t say goodbye to Joffrey, Cersei pretends to be that sympathetic mother figure that really understands her. How hard would it be then to pump Sansa for information? Like “Oh my sweet little dove. I know how much you love my son. Don’t worry. I’ll help you straighten this out. You said your father wants to send you away? How? When? What’s the name of that ship again?”  

And that line from Cersei’s POV is horseshit. Cersei is a liar and regularly lies in her POV to absolve herself of responsibility and force the blame entirely on others. In this case, Cersei is acting like she didn’t totally manipulate a trusting child to betray her.  We also know this is a lie because Ned was the one that told her himself of his plans to reveal the invest and remove her as queen. Sansa had nothing to do with that. All Sansa did was give Cersei information that allowed Cersei the opportunity to take her hostage before the girls could leave by ship. Cersei’s plans against Ned were already well underway. Sansa never came to her with the intent of knowingly betraying anyone, but she did have selfish reasons for going to the queen to complain in the first place. GRRM said himself that Sansa wasn’t to blame for Ned’s capture or death, but she did play a role in the events that transpired. That’s fair. All that makes her is a kid who made a not entirely innocent mistake, but a mistake nonetheless, which she immediately learned from. Does she trust Cersei or Joffrey again? Hell no.  

Relax, anon. It’s fine for her to not be nice all the time. It’s fine for her to have some realistic, garden variety flaws. It’s one of the most universal human mistakes to fall too hard and fast for the wrong person, act the fool over them despite all the red flags, only to realize you only saw what you wanted to see in them. And Sansa learned this lesson at eleven when some adults haven’t learned it at all. Relax. She’s a great, well-written, relatable character who has overcome most of these issues successfully.  

[secretlyatargaryen]

I'm that poster that sent you that asked about Cat and Sansa's favoritism. I didn't ask you question to start another Arya versus Sansa circle-jerk. I looking at Sansa's relationship with her parents on micro level. There is not much textual to support Cat favoring Sansa over Arya, but there is textual support for Ned favoring Arya over Sansa. My Ned issues might flared-up, and that's why my ask came across as me trying to pit Sansa against Arya. Sorry about that.

Well, sorry for accusing you, but I did not say that Sansa was favored over Arya. I said that Sansa was favored as the dutiful daughter and perfect lady, and she was.

“Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor. Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that. I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. She had auburn hair, lighter than mine, and so thick and soft … the red in it would catch the light of the torches and shine like copper.

“And Arya, well … Ned’s visitors would oft mistake her for a stableboy if they rode into the yard unannounced. Arya was a trial, it must be said. Half a boy and half a wolf pup. Forbid her anything and it became her heart’s desire. She had Ned’s long face, and brown hair that always looked as though a bird had been nesting in it. I despaired of ever making a lady of her. She collected scabs as other girls collect dolls, and would say anything that came into her head. I think she must be dead too.” When she said that, it felt as though a giant hand were squeezing her chest.

Obviously Catelyn loves both of her daughters, and again, it’s not a contest, and I feel like you’re still trying to make it one. But the Catelyn quote above IS textual evidence that shows great love for both her daughters, but also shows how she viewed them next to each other, and it does show that she considered Sansa to be the perfect image of a lady, and gave her special attention because of that.

Here’s another quote that shows Catelyn comparing the two girls and thinking about how Sansa is a perfect lady, where Arya needs work.

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement.

I’m not trying to say Catelyn loved Arya less because of it, and I think metas about that are bonkers. I’ve seen a lot of metas by both Arya and Sansa fans about which child was loved best, and tbh, it’s bullshit. However, Sansa WAS considered by her parents to be the more perfect child, and Arya IS unfavorably compared to her sister because of her lack of ability to fit gender expectations.

And since someone else also brought up Catelyn’s favorite child being Bran, I guess that comes from this quote, which, is the sentence right after the one I previously quoted.

Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. “Yes,” she said, “but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven.”

I can see why people could point to this quote especially to say Catelyn’s favorite child is Bran, but I still think it’s pretty silly. I don’t think either Ned or Cat had favorite children, and I think it’s weird and creates unnecessary drama to try and argue it. Because parenthood should never be a contest about which child is the favorite. As far as why Catelyn says this about Bran, she tells us in the quote. Bran’s her baby. He’s not the baby of the family, but he’s the youngest boy after Rickon, who is still literally a baby. He’s past babyhood but not yet a man. He’s in a position where in his society he’s beginning to be pushed into manhood - shown in how this story begins, with Ned bringing Bran to his first beheading (and I’ve talked before about how much I hate that SEVEN is considered the ripe age to witness a beheading, but whatev.) Catelyn can “let go” of sending her girls to the capital because girls are supposed to exist in the social sphere, and are raised with the purpose of joining another family. So Catelyn’s prepeared to let her girls go South, but Bran, her little boy on the cusp of manhood? She wants him to be a boy a little longer.

Now, do I think this viewpoint is damaging? Hell yeah I do, both to boys and girls, to consider girls as disposable and valuable for their ability to perform femininity and raise them with the mindset that they will soon enough leave the family and belong to some other man, and to treat boys as already grown men and not to allow them to have childhoods. Do I think this means Catelyn loves Bran the best? No, I don’t. This is also before Bran’s fall causes Catelyn to need him. But what I think it means is that she wants to hold on to that sweet, childish boy a little longer, because she knows what her society does to boys. She also knows what that society does to girls, and she knows it first hand, but again, I think her own upbringing comes into play here. Because she was the dutiful child, who grew up to be a woman who always knew her duty, with her daughters she is more resigned to the fact that they have to grow up and leave her. I think that’s what’s going on here. That’s also why I think she values so much Sansa’s ability to be the perfect, dutiful lady. It’s what SHE had to do, and although, as I’ve said before, she has her own problems with it, and her own trauma, she doesn’t know another way to live, and she’s also aware of how women are punished if they don’t conform. I think there’s a mixture of that in her thoughts about Sansa and Arya. That’s also why she calls out Robb when he won’t trade Jaime for the girls, and her thoughts on Sansa being married to Tyrion show that she fears the worst, because she knows what this society does to girls. She’d hoped, I think, that Sansa could find a good husband, the way she did, if she were always the dutiful lady, the way she was. But she knows what the worst scenario is. Which I think is both why she values Sansa’s ability to be a lady and worries for Arya.

I also am opposed to this discussion about Catelyn’s “favorite child” because I feel like there is more of a tendency to analyze Catelyn’s POV because she’s the mother. I think this is also a problem with the way GRRM writes her. Ned never has any monologues where he explains to the reader how he feels about each child. Ned’s feelings come out more organically in the narrative so they’re a little harder to parse.

I’ve seen the metas about how Arya is Ned’s favorite and they mostly use as proof that Ned sat and had that discussion with Arya about getting along with Sansa and about the danger in King’s Landing, where he apparently had no such discussion with Sansa, or if he did, it was offscreen. But I don’t think he felt the need to have that discussion with Sansa, because again, Sansa is the good girl. I think a lot of the criticisms leveled at Ned are that he let Sansa be naive, which I can see, but I think that’s because Sansa is supposed to be naive, she’s supposed to be the good girl, she’s supposed to do her duty. And there’s a strong social connection between femininity and purity, so I think Ned probably assumed that Sansa’s naivete was normal, or kept it that way on purpose, because pretty, pure, naive girls are valued and adored.

Arya, on the other hand, fails at being a lady. I think part of why Arya is less naive in certain respects than Sansa is because she didn’t grow up being idealized by people around her. So that could be a reason Ned finds it easier to talk to her and to be open with her. Arya is not an idealized image of femininity and thus less seen as in need of protection. I guess you could make a case that Ned finds it easier to relate to Arya because of this. 

You could also say that Ned blundered with Sansa during the Trident incident because he expected that it would be fairly straightforward to have her tell the truth in front of everyone. But Sansa is much more introverted than Arya. There’s also the fact that Sansa has increased social pressure to take Joffrey’s side, which Ned does understand, because he tells Arya so. Now, I guess Ned could have taken that information and spoke up during the incident, and maybe said “My daughter is hesitant to speak against her betrothed, but here’s what she told me in private…” But Ned is like Sansa in that he is also more introverted, so maybe that’s why he didn’t. And I think the situation quickly spiraled out of control from there because of the stronger personalities of Arya, Joffrey, Robert, and Cersei. And I’ve spoken about this before but I really get annoyed when people try and point blame over what happened at the Trident at anyone other than Joffrey and Cersei, because the whole thing is a huge clusterfuck and the people who are ultimately responsible are the people who know what really happened but who think they have the right to steamroll over people. Secondly would be Robert, who is king, and just didn’t want to take the responsibility to deal with finding out the truth, which I do blame him for, more harshly than if it were a mistake made by someone else, because again, he is the king.

I’m looking for text evidence that Ned favored Arya over Sansa and frankly, I don’t see any. I do see, like with Catelyn’s POV, a lot of idealization of Sansa as an innocent. Which supports the reading that Ned sees Arya as less naive and feels like he can be frank with her more. But also supports the reading that Sansa is favored as the perfect image of a lady, which is what my initial argument was. And in Ned’s thoughts about Sansa’s innocence and purity, there’s an interesting connection.

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once. 

Ned usually associates Lyanna with Arya, but what he associates with Lyanna here is Sansa’s “pleading.” Sansa’s innocence. Sansa as an idealized, feminine victim in need of protection.

Which in fact gets to what I think is the most distilled description of Ned’s thoughts on Sansa, which is what he says about Lady.

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter’s wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. “Lady,” he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

He is describing Sansa’s direwolf, of course, but not only is the direwolf a reflection of their owner, but he’s REALLY describing Sansa here. This description IS Sansa. The lady, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. Which is why it’s so sad and why Lady’s death affects Ned so much. Why he has her buried at Winterfell and wants to protect Lady from Cersei even in her death.

I think Ned also tried to preserve Sansa’s innocence and gentleness and belief in stories once they got to King’s Landing out of a love for that in her.

He had promised to watch the final tilts with Sansa; Septa Mordane was ill today, and his daughter was determined not to miss the end of the jousting.

…

Ned Stark would have loved nothing so well as to see them both lose, but Sansa was watching it all moist-eyed and eager. 

Ned is sort of watching this with disdain, and thinks Sansa’s idealizing of it is kind of silly, but then the idealist in Ned comes out, too.

By then Gregor was striding down the lists toward Ser Loras Tyrell, his bloody sword clutched in his fist. “Stop him!” Ned shouted, but his words were lost in the roar. Everyone else was yelling as well, and Sansa was crying.

This isn’t just about protecting Sansa, it’s about Ned’s own values and what he thinks is right. So maybe Ned loves Sansa’s idealism not just because she’s a perfect lady, but because of his own sense of justice and belief in goodness.

By contrast, I think he admired certain things in Arya that Sansa didn’t have: Arya’s forthrightness and her lack of caring for what other people thought. Which is why you have that scene in Sansa’s POV of her thinking jealously of how Ned accepted wildflowers from Arya and didn’t even punish her for being unladylike. This is actually a really interesting scene because even though it highlights Arya’s lack of ladylike qualities, Arya is bringing her father flowers which IS a very feminine thing to do. And the reason this is something she did for Ned is because Ned has that complicated relationship with femininity because of his love for his own sister. And I’ve talked before about how Lyanna is idealized in the text, by Ned and others, both for being the perfect pure lady victim AND for being a romanticized, wild figure. This creates a really complicated dynamic between Ned, Arya and Sansa. I also think there is more to say about how Ned’s more subdued personality was shaped by his relationship to the stronger personalities of Lyanna and Brandon, and I think you could connect that to how he relates to Sansa and Arya, especially in the Trident scene where he expects Sansa to speak up and she doesn’t, but can’t himself speak for her or doesn’t know how to comfort her, and then has that long talk with Arya in private about what happened, I think because Arya’s anger and outspokenness was very Lyanna-like to him.

So no, I don’t think Ned favored Arya over Sansa, I think he loved different things about both his daughters. And I do think that what I originally said is true, not that Sansa was the favorite child of either of her parents (I don’t think either of them had a “favorite child”, tbh), but that the thing Sansa was favored for was her ability to be the perfect lady and dutiful daughter. Which also kind of sounds like I’m saying that her parents were shallow or that they objectified her or that their love for her was shallow. I don’t think innocence and kindness and softness, idealism and belief in goodness, are shallow traits. I think Sansa should be valued for those traits. I think they’re very good traits. But I also think there’s a gendered expectation for women to have those traits and I think both Ned and Catelyn participated in society’s favoring of ladylike and dutiful qualities in girls.