#anti jonerys

[babybells123]

Posted about how I don’t care for/want a Jon/d*ny romance on r/asoiaf - and now I’m getting cooked for trying to be “unique” because they’re actuallyyyy the fated soulmates lovers of the series that are HEAVILY foreshadowed bc blue rose wolf howl shadowy lover and every reply that’s agreeing with me is getting downvoted to HELL.

It also just got me thinking about how people will bend over backwards about the obvious foreshadowing evidence for romantic j*nerys because ‘Martin is smart like that and places clues everywhere, nothing is a coincidence’ only to dismiss anything and everything about Jonsa because it’s a delusional crackship and everyone is reaching and everything is a coincidence and George isn’t truly thinking of any of their parallels and foreshadowings and their narrative relevance etc ….. and when Jonnel and Sansa Stark are brought up , it’s to ‘prove’ that Jon / D*ny will marry because it means the Starks are okay with uncle/niece marriage.

I hate it here so bad.

[adreamf-spring]

I was thinking about GOT season 8 and how crazy blatant clearrrr they were with showing that Jon doesn't love Daenerys, like, they didn't even bother trying at least. Like, the comparison with Jorah is crazy. Jorah literally died to protect her, because he loved her, meanwhile not only Jon couldn't bother to do that he didn't think twice to sacrifice her for Sansa's sake. They were crazy for that

[agentrouka-blog]

Do you think ‘Game of Thrones’ intended to build toward a romantic relationship between Jon and Sansa, or were Kit and Sophie’s on screen chemistry just that good? If the showrunners abandoned a Jonsa storyline, what is your theory as to why they did so?

I do think there was 100% intentional effort by various professionals that went into building romantic imagery around Jon and Sansa. Writing, lighting, costuming, the way they staged their interactions, dialogue choices - and the ton of visual parallels borrowed from other romantic couples in the series (Ned and Cat, Cersei and Jaime, Gilly and Sam, Robb and Talisa...) - that kind of stuff doesn't just happen accidentally because two actors have chemistry.

(In the same way, intentional choices went into undercutting and subverting romantic imagery between Jon and Daenerys. The "bad chemistry" is not accidental, either.)

As to why they abandoned a plan that still has archeological traces well into Season 8, I can't credibly guess. Probably a mix of things, partly a sudden unwillingness to invest the time into a pseudo-incest angsty romance that would heavily center Jon and Sansa and take away time from important things like Bronn, an imposed unwillingness to properly build Dany's villain arc to serve as a counter-weight in favor of giving the "romantic lead" plotline to Dany to camouflage her villain reveal. Who knows. Bad choices were made early down the line cutting things, and the puzzle pieces they had left they weren't willing or able to assemble into a balanced storyline that by then depended heavily on catering to fan favorite Dany.

[rise-my-angel]

Jon Snow, the man who thought burning a man alive was so utterly cruel and inhumane, very publically defied a Kings orders in front of him, and everyone else in attendance, by showing Mance Rayder mercy and shooting an arrow into his heart before the fire could start to engulf him.

Yes I understand why he'd side with miss "I literally dream about my enemies dying screaming as I burn them alive on mass".

Totally justified, the man whose uncle and grandfather were also burned alive, would ever side with the burns alive with flying flame thrower queen whose father was the one who burned his uncle and grandfather alive.

I'm sure Brandon and Rickard Starks deaths had absolutely no impact on the manner in which Jon grew up as someone who thinks burning people alive is a monstrous way to execute someone. I'm sure it doesn't greatly bother him to watch people die the way his uncle and grandfather were murdered.

But hes got secret targ blood so who cares.

[esther-dot]

But why do you think jonsa wasn’t more foreshadowed if they’re the main romantic pairing?

Well, I think we have comparable foreshadowing, often as a positive contrast to Jonerys foreshadowing which the entire fandom believes is the big romance of the series, so I’m gonna challenge your premise and argue that it isn't the lack of foreshadowing for Jonsa that you're noticing, but the fandom's refusal to accept it. I believe that's because Jonsa is a threat to their priors (Jon and Dany are the heroes, they will meet, fall in love, and defeat the Others together, something that is impossible to believe when Martin says things like this) rather than it being a fair evaluation of the existence or merit of our foreshadowing.

Below I'll point out a few kinds of foreshadowing/examples and present the similar Jonsa version so you can see what I mean.

The premise for Jonerys seems to be that every similarity in their arcs is a parallel, but they are actually contrasts if you read closely (fedonciadale's post about that), and Sansa too has parallels with Jon as you can see in @thewindsofwolves's beautiful parallel series. Their similar journeys are also captured in this gifset and this gorgeous art, and it is certainly intentional, as Sansa seems to pattern Alayne in part on Jon ie we're being told she's getting to experience parts of his life. And, unlike Dany whose plan to conquer Westeros puts her at odds with the Starks, Sansa and Jon are written as having the same, very simple, compatible dream,

If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya. (ASOS, Sansa II) I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. (ASOS, Jon XII)

If we're looking for a romance, foreshadowing that is about a personal relationship, this seems pertinent? And then there's Jon's desire to rebuild Winterfell, and the scene of Sansa literally building it out of snow:

Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. (ASOS, Jon XII) The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. (ASOS, Sansa VII)

Those two, back-to-back chapters, are absolutely full of parallels. They share a dream, and upon their reunion, will have a common purpose. I'll also link my post about how Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion has connections to Jon's relationship with Ygritte, and @stormcloudrising's post about the similarities between the interactions of Sansa and the Hound & Jon and Ygritte. There are tons of these, but you get the idea. If we're looking for parallels between experiences, we have them.

Now, a popular method of finding foreshadowing is chapter order, but Jonsa has that too. Here's a 2018 post by @julibf that talks a bit about it, and @istumpysk's ASOS recap talks about that here and here.

There are two moments I've seen Jonerys shippers point to quite often as foreshadowing. Jon and the moon, Dany and the wolf. But the thing is, Sansa is the sun, and one of the "Jonerys" (Jon and the moon) passages has Jon running away from the moon to the cave with the sun (fedonciadale's post about that). The wolf moment also has a Jonsa contrast:

Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep. (ADWD, Daenerys X) All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains. (AFFC, Alayne II)

Far be it from me to say that Dany hearing a wolf but being lost to her desires and Sansa hearing a wolf, a ghost wolf, and finding it an overwhelming presence (mountain) means something, but if one does, the other does too. And if we're reading them both as foreshadowing, I think there are some reasonable, and unreasonable conclusions to draw from them. So, you can see why imo the fandom employs a double standard in how they weigh the merits of foreshadowing and interpret one as nonexistent and the other as real and positive.

Another oft referenced bit is Dany's vision of the blue flower and the dream of the shadowy lover, so I'll link some analysis of those that I think is far more...uh, shall I say, contextualized. There are @agentrouka-blog's posts on Winter Roses here and here, and her tag for it if you're interested in really exploring it thoroughly. There’s fedoncidale's post about it, her post about the shadowy lover, and @ladyofasoiaf's spec about how the shadow lover foreshadowing is actually Euron.

Oh, and I almost forgot Val who I've seen brought into the picture as foreshadowing for Dany, but there's a funny thing with her hair which again, if we're gonna look at her hair color and say she's a stand-in for Dany, we should be able to look at it and say, ok, but that means over here she's a stand-in for Sansa, and besides, the connotations for Jonerys there are very bad as discovered by @wintersnow39.

Basically, I don't think there's a lack of foreshadowing, I think there's simply a bias in the fandom that rejects Jonsa foreshadowing while happily accepting incredibly similar foreshadowing for other couples.

[catofoldstones]

“What is this?” Skahaz demanded. “A bloody glove…”

“…means war,” said the queen.

And the next chapter is Jon. Yeah they’re not going to be lovers sorry.

[gh-0-stcup]

It's tough being in the ASOIAF fandom while hating both Jonsa and Jonerys.

[sweet-dawn]

Ah yes the well-known irrepressible ""magical attraction""

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

I love the contrast of Dany raising Gendry up for her own purposes

and her keeping Jon down for her own purposes in the same episode

Gendry was the bastard son of the usurper who took her father's/family's throne and spearheaded the rebellion that killed most of her family and forced her into exile. She legitimizes him as a Baratheon and makes him Lord of Storm's End in order to have someone loyal to her in that area of the kingdom and for that house. And when Arya finds out, she's happy for him and tells him "you'll make a wonderful Lord" though she refuses his offer of marriage because that's not who she is.

Jon is not a bastard and is actually part of her family who could have a legitimate claim to her family's throne (meaning the Targaryens will get it back either way), the very son of the brother she wanted to emulate in her early days after learning about him from Barristan Selmy and the man she loves. He has no interest in the throne, she can have it, but because she sees how people love him (and will most likely prefer him over her), despite his loyalty to her, she doesn't legitimize him or make him Lord of Winterfell so she can secure the North and House Stark.

Very interesting contrast and it shows you the explicit power dynamics. Jon literally is bending the knee to her, telling her he doesn't want the IT and she can have it, that he'll refuse if anyone tries to offer it to him, that he's loyal to her, and yet she still works to intimidate him into silence. "We can all live together." "I've just told you how."

"I wish I could forget. I'd be happy right now."

True love at its best.

[destroyerofnations92]

I always find it funny when those who support the Greens cling to Daemon’s (supposedly) evil acts and atrocities committed, to justify them overthrowing the king’s chosen heir, while also completely ignoring their own side.

Aegon is a proven rapist and frequent child abuser, who might even be a pedophile as well, depending on how you interpret the comment that he prefers the more “unsavory” brothels. He has bastards, whom he has fight in fighting pits. He is an absolute monster.

Helaena is an innocent victim. I’ll give you that. I feel bad for what is to come for her.

Aemond is a kinslaying psychopath. I don’t get those who seem to look forward to him and Alys. He killed her entire family and then took Alys, a prisoner of war, into his bed. Sounds like rape and a war crime to me. His actions cause so much pain. Burns the Riverlands, killing thousands, and his actions are the reason Jaehaerys is brutally massacred.

Daeron is an unknown entity, though he doesn’t seem evil, just a dutiful young man and another victim of his family’s misplaced ambition.

Alicent is a terrible person. She sneakily crept into the bed of her best friend’s father, not even six moons after his wife died in the birthing bed. I’d be surprised if the birthing blood had dried yet. She raised her sons to be hateful little monsters, and inspired their base and disgusting behavior. She was abusive and an all-round horrible mother. Every bad thing that will happen to her family is because of her. She hides behind her false piety, while she is out here allowing dudes to wank one out over her feet the day her husband died. Alicent is no victim, she hasn’t been one in a very long time. She could have had Larys seized, but she didn’t because she wants him working for her and not her father. Manipulative and disgusting.

Larys is a kinslayer of the worst kind. No problem with the foot fetishism, to everyone their own. Though I do find a dude called the Clubfoot having a thing for feet a little on the nose.

Criston Cole is truly an incel. He had one whiff of pussy and upon being rejected started spouting every incel/MRA talking-point out there. He is just a sad and pathetic person wearing a mask and clinging to his false Faith and his white cloak, pretending to be someone he is not.

Otto is a jealous little troll, who did everything in his power to destroy the House of the Dragon. I am a firm believer in the Oldtown Conspiracy, and that the Faith, the Citadel and House Hightower conspired to overthrow the Dragonlords and install Hightowers on the Iron Throne. He cares for nothing but himself. He is an almost one-dimensional villain.

That said, while the Greens are shit, they wouldn’t have been able to pull this off if not for two people: Jaehaerys and Viserys.

Jaehaerys was no conciliator, he was a capitulator. He kneeled to the Faith, was a shit father to his daughter, clearly a rampant misogynist, and allowed these “lesser” Andal lords a say in the governing and succession of the House of the Dragon. His entire shtick about Targaryen exceptionalism was thrown out the window the moment he didn’t want a woman on the throne. He is the root of all evil. Alysanne was a far better queen than he was a king.

Ah, Viserys the Peaceful. More like Viserys the Fool. The only reason he even sat the throne was because his brother assembled an army for him. Well, that and because his grandfather was clearly a deep-rooted women-hater. He was a moron. I saw someone describe him as using his kindness and peaceful nature to cloak what hides beneath: weakness. He was so easily manipulated and his actions led to the death of the dragons.

It is no coincidence it all went wrong for the Targaryens the moment the King wed an Andal. You can disagree with Daemon's Valyrian supremacy all you'd like, but he was right. The moment they "bred" with lesser beings, it all went to shit. They should have kept it to the Velaryons, Celtigars, Baratheons or the bastard Valyrians from the Free Cities.

The Greens’ treason caused the death of the dragons and was the reason the Seven Kingdoms were unprepared for the Night King and his armies.

[agentrouka-blog]

Dany fan here: I think other Dany fans think Jonsas are over the top with Dany hate because of pol!Jon. I follow many Jonsas because I’m perfectly fine with Jonsa. It’s not for me but I see the vision. That said I’m a bit of an unusual Dany fan in the sense that I’m a big fan of the Meereenese Knot essays and think the interpretation of Dany presented there is pretty spot on. I personally think Dany has a good heart but that circumstance and experience and terrible coping mechanisms have led her to act in villainous ways and whether or not a character is a villain is determined by their actions regardless of whatever goodness is in their heart. But anyway I do not like the pol!Jon theory. I think it’s out of character for Jon and needlessly cruel to Dany. I think it’s possible that he ultimately kills her and that could be fine and I don’t reject that theory, but I think the idea of Jon deceiving and sexually abusing Dany and then killing her for the sake of Sansa is what Dany fans think of when they think of over the top hate because they assume every Jonsa shipper also believes in pol!Jon.

I do understand why people thought Jon was deceiving Dany in the show though because their relationship was just so poorly executed and Kit and Emilia had no chemistry on screen. Imagine fucking up your show’s romance so badly that people think the script confirming that the love was mutual must have been tampered with.

Hi there!

(I think Dany is a compelling tragic villain, and it's lovely seeing someone loving her for it!)

I do think that pol!Jon (under duress, esentially) is a not unreasonable theory that grew out of the way the show presented their relationship. If there was sexual abuse I think it's fair to say it was in the hands of the more powerful party, though.

That said, I don't see it happening that way in the books at all and I think all characters will be better off for it. I agree it wouldn't feel right.

Certainly not in a punitive "you thought he would love you but he really loves Sansa, now die!!!" way. That cheapens jonsa as much as it cheapens the complexity of the conflict between Dany and Jon.

It's just a deeply uninteresting way to explore their existing conflict or their respective strengths. Not to be a hater but it's not exactly riveting literature watching Dany be manipulated by Daario and it's unlikely to be more so in a repeat performance with Jon who isn't even her type. Same as watching Jon go through a repeat of the abusive Ygritte plotline would be less than compelling.

We'll have instances of romantic manipulation. Littlefinger is practically begging Sansa to use his own obsession against him, and Arya gives us a preview when she lures Raff to his death wearing "Mercy's" face. That's been set up since the first book, and it works as a satisfying response to the way everyone has been telling Sansa how weak and simple she is. It's very personal, very steeped in their respective histories, very poetic.

But for Jon and Dany I think we can expect something more universal and even-handed than that. They are both at varying points manipulative and earnest, highly clever or unexpectly outmaneuvered. And neither will be in this conflict all alone and without advice. Not to mention, we have both of their POVs and watching one just miss all the clues of the other manipulating them would be flat. This only ever works with one POV withheld. The show tried that with Jon Snow live on the screen, to disastrous results. No way is that GRRM's plan.

I'd rather watch two clever adversaries play a big game of chess. And given GRRM's love for that game, I am certain it's also what he would prefer to write.

[rise-my-angel]

"People wouldn't have cared if Dany and Jon married as aunt and nephew. The Targaryeans did it for 300 years and no one complained."

Correction: The smallfolk were not allowed to complain because they were all under forced subjugation to a ruling power with atomic weapons with wings who did not hesitate to burn people and cities alive. The highlords did not want to object because the Targaryeans were the ruling power with atomic weapons with wings who did not hesitate to burn their enemies alive, and making your entire house an enemy to them was a death sentence. The faith litterly did object it, and were forced to sign the doctrine of exceptionalism which only granted it to the Targaryeans because they were the ruling power with atomic weapons with wings who did not hesitate to burn alive those who opposed their blood purity practices.

As soon as they were gone, the entire realm returned back to seeing incest as an unforgivably disgusting sin and any children born from it were considered abominations to the point a brother and sister having children together in the highest orders of the royal family was the catalyst for kickstarting a multi year war which killed tens of thousands.

Literally the only person who wouldn't oppose that marriage would be Dany, because she was raised to think her families incest was normal and also knows she could force Jon to be loyal to her all powerful rule because she has atomic weapons with wings who does not hesitate to burn her enemies alive.

Also all of this is moot anyways, because just say you are against Northern Independence and get on with it. Because that's what marrying Dany would do, destroy Northern Independence since now if they step out of line ever again, Dany would burn Jon alive to scare the remaining Starks and Northeners not to step against her again.

Jon sacrificed everything to save his people, Dany did nothing and yall want to force Jon to give up literally every single freedom hes just acquired for the first time in his life.

Almost like the story is about how demanding people to bend the knee is the corrupting power which only ever breeds more corruption and dissent, and is a system of total control which is not good or sustainable.

It's almost like Dany doesn't actually want to break the wheel if it means she cannot be the one, all powerful Queen with her dragon nukes and is really just using Jon as hostage and a pawn against his will.

Also shes his aunt. Stop it.

[esther-dot]

Dany may not like the starks but all the starklings love the targaryen tales, they won’t just start hating her for no reason

I assume you’re reacting to this post and I don’t understand how you came away thinking I was blithely announcing they’ll hate her “for no reason”?

If Dany has a reason to hate the Starks (as you suggest) because of which side of the rebellion their father was on and what that meant for her own life, why don’t the Starks have that same right? If Jon thought this of Mance and the Free Folk:

What’s he gonna think about an invading force when there’s no wall between them? Led by a woman from the family his father (or the man he believed was his father) rebelled against? A woman with Dothraki who are known to rape and enslave? And she has dragons. I think there’s good reason to believe Jon will be wary from the start, and then things will transpire that make him see her as a threat to his family, to “everyone I ever loved,” and that will make her his enemy. Besides, Jon was willing to kill someone “he half admired and almost liked…” to protect the Starks, so even if he didn’t loathe Dany, that isn’t gonna save her. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[lemonhemlock]

Watching Dany stans say that GRRM is going to end the series with a Jonerys marriage a la Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. sjdndjsnfjksdnfjsndfjnsdfnsdfnsdfsdfsndfnsdfnsnfsndfnsd

Henry and Lizzy, sweeties, I'm SO sorry.....

Mind you, these are the same targ stans that call the rest of the fandom illiterate.

That would be an ending more in line with your garden-variety style fantasy series, which is where they're coming from. Of course the special princess with superpowers gets her happily ever after with the brave orphan hero who is a secret heir. I just think GRRM is trying to do something more interesting with this. The dragon princess actually becomes a dangerous tyrant and the secret heir is more preoccupied with his identity as a member of his mother's family, not as the prince's son. It's.....a better story this way. But ofc you can't see that if you've nurtured a diseased, years-long parasocial relationship with a fictional character.

[tartheanmaid]

can anyone recommend some jonsa fic with an arya pov? i have a craving

[atopvisenyashill]

You said that you don’t like Jonerys, but do you see it happening in the books? Do you see them actually falling in love?

there is nothing about their personalities that has ever lead me to believe they’d be capable of tolerating each other for more than 10 minutes before a slap fight started. nor do i think jon will be amenable to making any more alliances with targaryens after aegon vi dies, especially with the North in such peril due to the others. that + sansa’s distrust of The Great Game & the people who play it + arya spending half her storyline in a city that hated valyria & it’s legacy of slavery + bran telling br he can take his borg hivemind and shove it all leads me to believe that the starks are gonna be petty at best & actively hostile to the iron throne at worst by the time dany lands.

and by the time dany lands…we’ll have the burning in vaes dothrak, which is likely to be a huge moral turning point for her bc as george said, her being unburnt was a once in a lifetime magic event. she’s likely ordering drogon to burn the khals which is so much different - and more villainous! - than just lighting a torch & watching the place go up in flame. we’ll have “to go west you must go east” which is going to involve her sacking a city with the dothraki. we’ll have the battle of fire in meereen & a team up with a greyjoy which just spells disaster. then she lands in westeros with an army made up of dothraki screamers, unsullied slaves, and headed by jorah fucking mormont and a greyjoy. i’m not even sure when she has the time to meet jon let alone get dicked down by him!

(part of my “snowspear is real” trutherism is that i think dany in the show was given like half of aegon vi’s plot. considering arianne is going to meet them at storm’s end, which is a hop, skip, and jump away from dragonstone, it makes way more sense to me that the main targ the starklings would be dealing with is aegon. i also think that jon finding out he’s lyanna & rhaegar’s as he’s dealing with rhaegar’s trueborn son & has completely thrown his lot in with the north is gonna hit way more emotionally than jon finding out he fucked his aunt. george does a lot with romance, this is true, but the main relationships in this series? they’re siblings! they’re parents & children! cersei & robert are haunted by the ghost of lyanna but lyanna has always been a stand in for robert’s love for NED. cat & ned’s relationship is doomed before it even starts by LYANNA and JON, not by a former lover! all three lannister kids wonder how their lives would have turned out if their mother had lived!! it’s about ~these ties that bind us~ it’s about the human heart in conflict with itself! i just don’t see how you pass up two unknown half brothers meeting & clashing & then finding out they’re related in favor of…a very predictable, very boring romance between your fire & ice coded mains).

tldr i still generally feel no bc i’ve never thought they’d get along very well, plus there’s no time, but i’m pretty ready to eat my words on that one and cringe my way through a sex scene between them.