#for Siuan especially

[onaperduamedee]

The Wheel doesn't want anything. It can't. Any more than a river or the rain can want something. It's people who want.

[faircastle]

siuan sanche, woman of all time for the fact alone that she got all the way to leading the aes sedai - an institution famed for preferring aristocratic novices, turning away the poor when they don't already have impressive amounts of power - while still serenely making her fish puns and weaponizing reminders of other women's noble backgrounds to make them seem smaller

[utilitycaster]

Sort of a distant tangent off my post about Ashton, but I'm growing more and more suspicious of the fandom claim that there's no time for small RP moments in Campaign 3. I do think that it's been challenging to get deeper party bonding or serious conversations that aren't about the big philosophical questions they're facing, since those do take much more time; but then I think about Calamity, or Candela Obscura. I can genuinely give you at least a couple paragraphs about pretty much every relationship in the two Circles, or in the Ring of Brass. I can also point to no shortage of small moments between characters in the Mighty Nein Aeor or Vox Machina Vecna endgame episodes, which were all extremely plot-heavy and fast-paced, and D20 consistently nails character relationships in a fraction of the time.

I think it really does come down to, as Brennan Lee Mulligan always says, the character creation phase. Laying down a solid groundwork in which everyone has a detailed, rich backstory and sense of personality and relationship history (in the case of characters who knew each other prior to the start of the series) is absolutely crucial, and even in the case of characters who don't know each other before going in, a good amount of time spent in character creation ensures that it's easier for them to develop those interpersonal relationships on the fly. I know in actual play there's some degree of finding the character as you play, but there are games for which there is a very short runway, and I don't think it ever hurts to do more extensive character prep than the bare minimum. And if there are gaps, I think it also helps to go back and fill those in mid-way, away from the table - Travis clarifying Chetney's backstory being a great example that allowed the history of Chetney and Deanna to feel realized and full, despite only a few episodes.

I'll also be blunt: most of the time when people complain that there aren't moments because the plot keeps moving...they're mad about shipping. Which has always rung hollow to me. It was a common complaint in C2, that no time was taken for character relationships, despite them taking an entire half of an episode for the Beauyasha date and despite no shortage of moments for all three of the other couples (and plenty of platonic moments between friends). The issue was never a lack of time; it was that the characters they wanted to talk to each other didn't actually have the relationship in canon that the fans had dreamed up, and so, when the chips were down, they went to other people.

It takes two seconds to say something like "I hold their hand", even in the middle of plot-heavy adventuring. If someone doesn't say it, it's rarely the GM rushing them; it's the player either choosing not to do so, or not remembering to do so, and either of those is quite revealing regarding how the player feels about that relationship and where it stands in their priorities.

[markantonys]

WOT season 3 episode 1 title is "to race the shadow" (source)

[birgittesilverbae]

if someone tells me to WAFO again I'm going to scream like I have been watching as they've systematically taken 90% of Siuan's book scenes and given them to other characters and then assigned her the book actions of the woman who tortured her.

RAFO/WAFO isn't "maybe they're going to claw back every single choice they've made about a character over two seasons"

[ofthebrownajah]

I know this is the one thing a lot of people didn't like about the episode but what I did like about the plot point in particular is it established early how the Tower wants to control Rand and how they don't view him as an actual person but a tool to be used

[girlonthelasttrain]

once again I'm asking... where is my multiple-seasons White Tower politics show

[amyrlinegwene]

End of the year, time to get things off my chest:

I think 2x07 and the decisions for Siuan’s character made me lose a lot of interest in Wheel of Time as a whole (show, fandom, even the books). Without rehashing it too much again, I think that interest in a fandom can be delicate and sadly one thing can just change how you view something or feel about something emotionally. And I think after 2x07, it was hard for me to continue to be emotionally invested in WoT in the same way.

So if you notice that I’ve been less active that’s why, maybe I’ll get back into it eventually especially if I reread.

[puddinginthemix]

My favorite thing about the Wheel of Time TV series is the way it lets middle-aged women be desirable, desiring, and hot. Moiraine and Siuan have very visible wrinkles! Alanna Sedai is played by a 41-year-old actress, and she's living her best life as the soft domme of a MFM throuple! Especially in high fantasy, I feel like this sort of thing is really unusual and I love it.

[shutupineedtothink]

I’m still s h o o k that people do not see exactly what’s going on with Moiraine throughout s2 and people are dragging her and dismissing her without an ounce of empathy for what she’s been through, so I’m bringing the full character analysis for y’all (and my own sanity). So this is a big ol in defense of Moiraine (and Lan) rant, so if that’s not your thing, scroll down now. Here we go.

I just… The AUDACITY some people have to look at Moiraine and be angry and pissed off at how she acts in S2. To not feel any sympathy and empathy for her and the monumental weight she’s under every goddamn day. There’s a reason we start with that bath scene in 2x01 – it shows you everything. How she’s just going through the motions. How she only lets herself cry when she’s alone in the water. How she literally curls into the fetal position and looks reproachfully devastated over her knees as she hugs them to her chest in a futile attempt at comfort. Not to mention the direct comparison/callback with the bath scene in 1x01, where she has both her power and Lan still, and now she’s lost her connection to both of them.

How is it not painfully obvious that every interaction she has after that bath scene is infused with a trauma response? Let’s tally up the devastation she’s been through. At the end of S1, she was 1. banished from the sisterhood of the white tower (they literally turned their backs on her), 2. was separated AGAIN from the love of her life fully expecting to never see her again, 3. was cut off from the other love of her life (that would be Lan, for the record) which is all the worse bc it’s her own fault for masking the bond, 4. was fully made to believe she’s been stilled from the one power aka an integral part of her being, AND 5. she’s “failed” her mission at the eye of the world – the one goal she’s had for the last 20 years, her life’s purpose – because instead of locking away the dark one she’s directly caused Rand to set Ishamael free.

You don’t think it's justified to be a little pissed off and standoffish after all of that? You don’t think the weight of that guilt, grief, pain, and loss is a reasonable cause to be distant, cold, harsh, having a little bit of a death wish? That’s TRAUMA, baby! She is absolutely wrecked, and it’s coming out in the worst way in her interactions with others (especially Lan because we’ve seen how they should be), but it’s absolutely not because she actively wants to hurt the people around her. In fact after almost every moment she lashes out at someone, we see an equally sad/grief-stricken/devastated moment from her and THAT’S the real emotion hiding underneath the anger. This woman needs therapy and understanding and patience, and does not deserve to be judged at the worst time of her life.

Ok fine, you say, but Lan IS patient and understanding with her! And she’s still an asshole to him! You’re right, Lan is absolutely trying his best and doing just about everything he can to be there for her in 2x01/2x02 (with a little help from Verin and Tomas). But 1. It’s STILL not about him, Moiraine is not obligated to respond in a certain way to her grief and pain that makes him feel better, and 2. This is Moiraine goddamn Damodred and even her trauma response is also a front to protect him, to push him away from her and what is now certainly a suicide mission to fight the dark without her powers.

This is SOOO important to really get Moiraine’s character — y’all gotta understand this: Moiraine truly loves only TWO people on the whole fucking planet: Siuan and Lan. They are also the only people who truly love her, unconditionally, with all of her flaws and imperfections. Please please ingrain that into your brain, especially for Lan, in this context. (Siuan is a whole other conversation I won’t get into at the moment.) Moiraine loves Lan, he loves her, deeply. That’s the foundation of everything they go through with each other in this season, despite what’s happening on the surface.

Once you accept that as fundamental truth, everything makes a whole lot more sense. She is a dick to him to push him away. Literally tells him he failed her to put the final nail in the coffin of driving him away, which is his worst nightmare. On the surface it seems egotistic at best, plain cruel at worst. But look underneath. Moiraine always has reasons 2, 3, 6 layers deep for everything she does.

With everyone else she’s mean to this season, namely her sister and her nephew, it’s born out of distrust (and the aforementioned trauma response). She can’t afford to trust anyone because anyone could be a dark friend. (And if they’re not a dark friend, then they become a liability and endangered.) Anything she lets slip could be used to hurt/control Rand and push them all one step closer to eternal darkness. Oh and when we see Barthanes’ true nature that turns out to be fucking justified, by the way. But I digress.

Right so why is she an asshole to Lan then? Because she doesn’t trust him? I don’t believe that for a second. These two have been on the same page, literally sharing the same headspace, for the last 20 years – she knows he’s the best person she’s ever met, the least likely to ever turn to the dark, ever. It’s an actual impossibility. So it’s not that she doesn’t trust him. She literally marvels at how courageous he must be to fight the dark with only a sword.

The true reason is: she does trust him, she does love him, and she KNOWS him. She knows that he will never leave her like this, in her darkest hour. He is both honor-bound to her (which he takes very seriously) and deeply cares for her. The problem is that now his life is in serious danger by staying with her. But there is no calmly explaining to him that he should return to the white tower for his own good and bond to another aes sedai who can actually channel, who can actually hold up her end of the partnership and protect him and heal him in return for his loyalty and sacrifice. Or better yet, find Nynaeve, who is not only ridiculously powerful and has probably the best chance of protecting him out of anyone, but who also loves him.

If Moiraine loves him and wants him safe, the ONLY option she has to protect him, the one good thing left in her life even if their bond is masked, is to drive him away. To make it so that he’ll stay far away from her of his own free will, and never come after her and her suicide mission to defeat the dark. Because she has already lost everything, she has no control over her fate anymore (if she ever had any to begin with), but the ONE thing she can still try to do is keep him safe. And hopefully, maybe he’ll be happy, one day. Her reasoning is directly confirmed for us in the last thing she says to him in 2x02 before she leaves: “Light protect you, al’Lan Mandragoran.” That was her goal all along, to protect him.

That’s the true reason she’s Like That to him. It’s all out of her love for him, and a desperate desire not to drag him down with her when she’s sure she’s destined to die on this mission. Is her strategy misguided? On the one hand yes, because she does need people to help her and she needs to trust someone, as he points out. On the other hand, she’s absolutely fucking right because look what happened with the Fade fight at the end of 2x01. Both her and Lan would have died without Verin and Tomas, and it would have been because she couldn’t channel. He is factually, logically, physically better off without her as long as she’s “stilled.”

This is why it makes sense how Lan eventually responds the way he does. He initially sees right through what she’s trying to do, he literally says he won’t let her push him away. He knows her too, better than anyone, including Siuan at this point. But he isn’t expecting her to go as far as she does, and it shakes him to his core. She tells him he failed her, has his worst fears confirmed, and then hears the words “we were never equals” and hears that she thinks she’s better than him, when she means the exact opposite. Tomas tells him to really listen but he can’t, in that moment.

But then he gets some distance, and some perspective thanks to Ihvon and Maksim, and he remembers: he loves her. He believes in her and he knows her and he knows what she’s doing to push him away (although maybe not why, when it comes to protecting him, because he doesn’t see himself as someone who needs protecting). Even better, he realizes that her situation is actually not what she thinks, that she’s shielded not stilled, and he can do something about that.

I LOVE Lan in 2x07 because he’s got Moiraine’s number now, and he will not be swayed by any further attempts (rather weak attempts at this point) to lash out at him. He just takes all the shit she throws at him, and calmly asks her what he needs to know and tells her what she needs to hear (“hopefully everything we’ve lost” and “that’s what I thought” and “you need to trust someone, Moiraine”), and is truthful with her even if she is still putting on this act with him in her fear and grief. He isn’t having any of it, he sees straight through it to the fear and pain underneath. And he literally DECIDES they are going to be okay, and then he fucking. Follows. Through.

He is not a doormat to her rage, he is not her servant, he’s not going back to her with his tail between his legs. He SHOWS UP for her in her darkest hour, when NO ONE, not even Siuan, can see what’s going on with her. That’s a true friend, a true hero, and absolute king behavior.

In conclusion, Moiraine’s behavior in s2, while not cute, is totally justified given the trauma, circumstances and everything she’s dealing with (jfc the lack of sleep alone) and makes sense in light of her ultimate goal to protect the world, which includes protecting Lan. And Lan’s response, once he figures out what to do, is the absolute correct way to handle the situation and is not weakness at all but strength in the highest order.

I’m so glad we got the payoff of all that with their conversation in 2x08 and reconnecting the bond. It was so beautiful, so earned, and reminded us of the level they’re on with each other — which is a soul connection way beyond what any of us can imagine.

[esterzach]

I don't understand why so many people, especially people who read and loved the books, and especially men, fail to understand Moiraine in the show.

The kids don't trust her, people see her as a witch, and I guess that goes for most Aes Sedai but most Aes Sedai either reside mostly in the Tower, Tar Valon, or a couple of other places where they are respected, or don't travel as much to get that attitude from random people. Moiraine has to deal with all that, half of the time simply because she is a woman and doesn't reveal her status, or she is seen as evil and hated.

They somehow fail to see how people from outside her circle, which is a very small space to maneuver at that, treat her and see her. And why her response is the way it is.

This is a person who is extremely isolated due to what her sole mission is, she can't be honest and talk to pretty much anyone, aside from Siuan and Lan. She is afraid to talk to people because she knows how the politics of the Tower works and how everyone is either trying to extract information or can be an enemy. Half of those people either see her as too secretive or downright awkward, they either mock her behind her back or don't trust her. And she probably feels all that. Liandrin, one of the very few who actually knows her has unresolved feelings for her, and is hostile and aggressive to her.

Then she gets to hold terrifying secrets and she gets through an event that her Sisters consider their worst fear, she can't or doesn't speak about that, she can't go and share it with someone who has been through the same, because no one has been through this for ages. She gets to live through it alone, and that rot within her for months... which probably evokes even more isolation and fear, resulting in her being even more alone and cold to everyone...

She goes to her sister, and her sister is rightfully angry with her, which makes her look even worse. She treats her on and off, Moiraine either doesn't speak or answers badly... Logain is an ass to her, as expected.

She is ashamed to tell Siuan, she never actually speaks it out loud and even freaks out a bit when Lan only mentions it. She never utters the words, in her mind this probably seems like a nightmare that doesn't stop, because she is afraid to face reality.

And people are Oh, she is awful. She is evil... Like you are so mature and kind when something bad happens to you? As if all of a sudden you become amazingly wise and sweet, while you are in pain, confused and terrified. Superhumans... Hospitals are full of people who are in pain but are great at socializing and oh-so nice. We tend to become angry and bitter. And this is normal. Fear speaks. Anger too.

The only people who seem to understand are Verin and Adeleas. And that woman's perspective, that motherly attitude from Verin feels like something that almost makes you cry. And it's not the pity one needs, but understanding and being kind. There is a difference, that most people tend to mix. And when you are hurting or going through something this attitude from people around you tends to be even more annoying. Verin sees her and understands. I doubt Siuan as it was in E 7 does. There is... some sort of pity and someone mentioned disgust. Which is the worst possible combination in such a case. When you crave acceptance and understanding, love and kindness, just a bit, to see that in someone so close to you, doesn't feel good at all.

I noticed something in S1 E7 - when Moiraine sent Lan to go see his family and Lan introduced Nynaeve to them, they greeted her and called her Aes Sedai. They thank her for keeping Lan safe. They don't know her but assume she is an Aes Sedai who travels with Lan. Maybe I am wrong but...it seems that these people don't know what Moiraine looks like. They don't know her, so they confuse her with Moiraine. She never went with Lan. And these people are sweet and nice, but she never gets to experience that.

Even in Fal Dara, where people know who she is, they greet Lan warmly, and she is mostly ignored. That stings. Then Lord Agelmar is treating her as an annoyance, with cold formality, almost dismissing her. And she is almost on the edge here to snap at him.

This goes on and on, and people are oh why is she like that?! Because they treat her like shit, that's why!

And at the end, show Moiraine is called "a cow" by some people. Nice. Soooo they get to dig into 14 books, find connections, and hidden clues, but don't understand what they see right in front of them?! You don't hear what is said? A hell of a way to understand people.

Even when she attempts to protect Lan and make him leave, to be away from her because she most likely will attract danger. This is not only obvious, but he says it again and again. She is still seen as the bitch who treats him shitty, just because. Talking about superficial thinking...

But how this stupid man can't see through her when he has known her for so long and so intimately?! Why is he acting so dumb? If you treat someone like crap for months, especially when that someone trusts you and has tremendous respect for you, observe what that does to their self-esteem. Keep dismissing them, ignore them, and act as if they are a liability. And then tell them something slightly ambiguous, almost transparent, and observe how they would take it. Actually, no need to go that far at all. We all have seen it, one way or another.

Everyone else who knows them will never think twice about what she meant when she said "We were never equal." Her tone is harsh, her face expresses what would be read as contempt or something similar. And after months of bad attitude and a reveal of how many things she hid from him, how else he would see it? The whole foundation of their relationship was undermined by her, meticulously, for months, bit by bit, blow by blow. Refusing to speak to him, refusing to give him her usual trust and respect. The message is clear - you are no longer important to me, you are no longer of use. For someone who claimed that she gave him everything, a meaning, a reason to live and to die for... That seems like a pretty big deal. And now all that is gone. How dare he react like a human being! Almost like when she informs him in The Great Hunt what would happen to him in case she dies. And in the books, she is this serene creature, with a soft voice, who never do anything cruel or slightly shitty, like reminding him in TDR "Walk faster or you know who I am going to call..." FFS, even I was "WHAT the fuck, woman?!" and the people around them were like Damn, whatever that was, Lan got angry... You think?!

But the showwww!!! Yeah, the show did perfectly fine with this situation, it's the preconceptions in people's heads that stopped them from seeing what was going on. There are flaws. Many at that. But this wasn't one of them.

[utilitycaster]

OH HELL YEAH GET IT NYNAEVE

[markantonys]

it's interesting that in the coup it's framed largely as the young trainees taking elaida's side vs. the older warders taking siuan's (though i'm sure there was some mixing and it wasn't a 100% clear-cut division, especially since plenty of older warders would've sided with elaida because their aes sedai did). the ages feel significant to me, because it feels like the kind of thing where the younglings are doing what's right in a by-the-book way (upholding tower law by preventing the jailbreak of a legally-deposed* amyrlin) because they are too young and too inexperienced with the world to be ready to question authority or see potential nuance in a situation. it's the older warders who are able to think "hmmm, this may technically be legal but it still doesn't feel right" because they have the life experience to know that tower law and aes sedai are not infallible and can make mistakes or act out of shady motives. whereas the younglings are still in the early phase of trusting the tower as an institution 100% no matter the situation (which we see later on too, when gawyn is growing disillusioned with elaida/the tower but knows he can't voice this to any of the other younglings because they'd kill him for being a traitor to the tower).

this makes me curious about the novices and accepted. i think some fled with the rebels since i remember nynaeve and elayne needing to teach classes in salidar, but how did that happen? was it only a small minority of blue-leaning students who went, or was it a more even split? i suppose that aes sedai students may have had more direct interaction with siuan and/or elaida and more opinions on the blue and red ajahs than warder trainees and so maybe they were more likely to have personal reasons for choosing one side over the other, while the warder trainees kinda defaulted to Tower Law As Written since they were pretty far removed from the politics & emotions of elaida deposing siuan (bar gawyn who did have plenty of direct interaction with both, which made him predisposed to trust elaida and distrust siuan).

*siuan was not legally deposed, but i don't think anybody fully realizes that until much later when they find out that some of the sitters who voted against her were black ajah. on the day of the coup, most inhabitants of the white tower have little to no reason to doubt the legality of the deposition; at most they would have a Bad Feeling about it but no real evidence that it was illegal.

[deeplyridiculouslyinlove]

Thinking about Moiraine calling Siuan her “dearest friend” in The Great Hunt and realizing that I think Siuan is actually Moiraine’s ONLY friend.* She left behind all other friendships or possible friendships when she left the Tower in New Spring. I am not okay!!!

*I’m not counting Lan because when you literally are in someone’s head and they’re literally in yours I think that’s a distinctly different type of relationship. I also think the warder bond (especially how it operates in the books to shape their relation to one another) complicates it in a number of ways.

[lookingforcactus]

Maybe this is a stretch driven by my hope for siuaraine, but I wonder if the final scene between Suian and Moiraine went the way it did because Suian thinks Moiraine might have turned to the dark

"You lied to me about being stilled."

My eyebrows shot up when I heard that line, bc that's a big deal accusation for an Aes Sedai. And parallels nicely with Alanna and co. accusing Lan of being a darkfriend last episode

Which I know some people hated, but the thing is, Lan and Moiraine have kind of been acting super sketchy, if you don't know the things we know

Like, from Siuan's pov: Lan shows up and tells her Moiraine has been stilled, which in MONTHS of letters, Moiraine never mentioned. Siuan is horrified that happened, has got to be terrified that Moiraine is going to kill herself, and is also lost and hurt and baffled that Moiraine would hide this from her

Like, that omission was a HUGE DEAL, relationship wise. Not a good move keeping something that important from your wife, especially when they were plotting together and it would be 100% reasonable and probably also a good move for Moiraine to turn to Siuan for help

And going back to Siuan's pov, she's dealing with ALL THAT, plus the Dragon, which is another thing she and Moiraine (seem to be?) at odds about

There's darkfriends in the Tower

Moiraine has been hiding something from her

Moiraine has been stilled

The town they're in is assaulted and set on fire

Someone has broken the Dragon out of the White Tower's custody

And when Siuan goes to try to, presumably, get him back, what happens?

She turns the corner and finds Moiraine, Lan, and Rand standing there, alone, in front of a waygate that MOIRAINE JUST OPENED

And I'm sure that normally, this wouldn't make Siuan worry about Moiraine's loyalties, but...she just found out the love of her life was stilled and then spent six months completely failing to tell her about it

Who wouldn't be shaken? Who wouldn't already be asking "If she hid something as big as THIS from me, what else could she be hiding?"

And then she shows up and Moiraine has just used the One Power to open a waygate

Earlier in the episode, when she finds out Moiraine has been stilled (well, close enough), what she says is something like "Six months of letters, and not a single word about that." The very common Aes Sedai route of lying by omission

When she shows up at the Waygate, she says "You lied to me about being stilled."

Siuan thinks Moiraine was able to break one of the oaths. Which Moiraine could only do if she'd sworn herself to the Dark.

And as Lan establishes, the idea of tying off a weave and leaving it in place is so not a thing anymore, it's barely even the stuff of legends. Why would Siuan think that's on the list of possibilities? Especially in such an overwhelming and emotionally fraught and literally things are on fire moment?

And all Moiraine says in response (in her defense there are a lot of things going on) is "I can't"

Which, yeah, Siuan knows that is (supposed to be) the case

And THEN, fucking Lanfear shows up, gets pretty easily talked into not killing Moiraine by Rand, and then Moiraine and Lan follow Lanfear and Rand through the waygate without a word

I think it would be 100% reasonable, actually, for Siuan to suspect that Moiraine is a darkfriend after all of that, and given what she knows

So much of Moiraine's life has been out of Siuan's view, for like 20 years now. So much could've happened

And now Moiraine is using the One Power even after she told everyone that she was stilled

Kind of a guilty look actually!!!

(If this is what they're doing though they definitely should've been more clear/explicit/developed with the setup, tho. But otherwise I think it's really interesting as a potential plot point!)

[amyrlinegwene]

I'm sorry but I'm feeling so frustrated and upset with what they've done with Siuan's character.

YES, it's an adaptation. AND YES, adaptations change things.

BUT the show has made changes to Siuan's character that are FUNDAMENTALLY opposed to her character in the books, and often the EXACT OPPOSITE decision that she made in the books.

They gave Siuan's scene about a sword of air not being much use to Liandrin, and have her use blades of air to defend herself-- which causes her to immediately lose when face to face with Lanfear. She literally makes the mistake that she warns against in the books.

In the books, she lets Rand go and trusts the pattern and is deposed and stilled for it. She undermines Tower norms and risks everything for it. In the show, she scoffs at Moiraine's trust in fate and tries to cage Rand because it's Tower law. Literally the opposite of her attitude and actions under almost exactly the same circumstances.

She controls Moiraine with the oath. Setting aside the fact that they completely brushed aside the sacred way in which (non-BA) Aes Sedai view the oaths (and the fact that it took a hunt for the Black Ajah to do any sort of experimentation with it). It also is diametrically opposed to the way that Siuan and Moiraine trust each other to do their part in preparation for the Last Battle in the books.

AND in case of the last two points, do they remind you of anyone? Someone who was in direct opposition to Siuan and the choices she made? They literally made her Elaida. Elaida wanted to trap Rand and control him. Elaida wanted to have Sisters swear a personal oath to her. What is the point of this?

An adaptation can make changes, of course, but you have to weigh the changes you make in plot and characterization and choose carefully. Characterization is especially delicate. People can tolerate and enjoy the same characters being put in different situations (see AU fanfictions) but when you change who the character is at their core, people get rightfully frustrated that you put the name of their beloved character on a different person (see reactions to OOC).