#fundy was born when wilbur was 20. my timeline makes no sense so forgive me. fundy is 8 when wilbur is 28. when fundy is 14 wilbur is 34

[lime1991]

in my dsmp canon cdream is like close in age to cwilbur, just slightly younger, so just keep that in mind lol

[kateis-cakeis]

Hi! I am/was a neglected kid so i am semi on Fundy's side by default, which gives me a bias i am trying to break. And since i came to fandom later I was told a big reason Fundy apologists "dislike" Alivebur was the fact "I despise you" made Espionage Arc have no real payoff which I'm inclined to superficially agree. I was wondering if there were any vods youd reccomend i could watch to break my preconceived thoughts/bias?

Hi, Anon.

Here’s some vods at the timestamps that are probably important to watch (X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X). They show Alivebur as a father, and also him getting disowned, as well as the despise quote itself. 

But I’m gonna take your ask as an excuse to do some analysis, so hope you don’t mind!!!

I feel like I should tread carefully here since you said you are/were neglected but ummm...

Okay, so, in my eyes, Alivebur was the exact opposite to neglectful. If anything he was an overbearing and protective father who thought Fundy was far too young for any kind of power - hence why he never gave him any proper government position.

Here are a couple quotes where Alivebur mentions that Fundy is too young:

“That means you’ve got like a week till Fundy’s in charge of L’Manberg.” (Tommy)

“Nah, Fundy’s too young.” (Alivebur)

- (Wilbur’s video The Great War of the Dream SMP: 26:40)

and

“Don’t give him promotions he’s too young, he doesn’t understand.” - (Wilbur’s video Building the Resistance: 11:08)

This is likely because, as mentioned by Ghostbur, that around the time of the election, Fundy was fourteen. Which also means he was younger during the Independence War, and still fairly young at the beginning of the Pogtopia era.

Here’s the quotes:

“Last time I spoke to Fundy was… erm. When I announced I was running for President, and you said that you were also gonna run. That was the last time I remember.” - (Fundy’s Being Adopted: 1:00:43, 27th Nov)

–

“He’s very young, he’s only like fourteen.” - (Fundy’s Being Adopted: 1:03:12, 27th Nov)

–

“Phil, do you know how old Fundy is? I think he was very young when I remember, but I don’t know if he’s gotten older since.” - (Fundy’s Being Adopted: 1:03:23, 27th Nov)

The implication here is that Ghostbur doesn’t know if Fundy has gotten older since he last remembers, but Ghostbur last remembers talking to Fundy at the election. 

This implies that the “He’s very young, he’s only like fourteen” means that Fundy was fourteen around the time of the election, but has gotten older since then, implied from Ghostbur asking Phil how old Fundy is. (If you wanna see more on this, here’s an analysis about the whole age thing)

With this in mind, it makes sense why Alivebur would baby Fundy and be overprotective, to the point where he gave him no responsibility. It comes from a good place, but Fundy didn’t like it all that much.

It seems with both Alivebur and Fundy, their relationship was good up until the exile. This is also further backed up by what Phil said about Alivebur being a good dad:

“Will, for good portion of your life, you were the best dad. You were great. But, at some point, you took a turn and... things got messy.” - (Wilbur’s Amangus with new and old friends: 1:59:37, 24th Nov)

That turn Phil is referring to? That’s Pogtopia, and something very notable happens with Alivebur and Fundy two weeks before Alivebur took that turn. 

See, Alivebur has a very justified reason in hating Fundy, it’s not for no reason, not at all (full analysis on that here). He’s justified because, Fundy disowned him:

“Wilbur is just a founder, and I was born here and nothing else. That’s literally everything there is to it.” (Fundy)

“But you know that’s not…” (Alivebur)

- (Wilbur’s techno and wilbur make cave better: 58:20, 23rd Sep)

We have no idea if this was just for show as a spy, or if this was legit, but no matter what Fundy’s intentions were, he disowned Alivebur when he was right there, and it contributed into breaking him. 

The paranoia Alivebur had in the latter half of Pogtopia? Part of it comes from Fundy. He literally claims to not even be related, at all. It’s not just disowning, it’s denying that Alivebur was ever his father. 

That’s bound to hurt and break Alivebur down, and not to mention, Alivebur was hurt when Fundy wasn’t on his side at the elections, so this is so much worse. 

After the above quote, Alivebur is silent for half a minute before saying this:

“I don’t know who you are anymore, Fundy. I don’t know who you are anymore…” - (Wilbur’s techno and wilbur make cave better: 59:08, 23rd Sep)

This is a major quote that gets overlooked. Alivebur thought he knew his son, but after he was disowned, he says this in a tone that seems as if he’s on the brink of tears. Losing Fundy like this hurt Alivebur deeply, but nobody ever takes it into consideration when talking about their relationship.

This is what makes Alivebur wholeheartedly believe that Fundy was on Schlatt’s side. And it definitely contributes to his paranoia. But what hurts the most, one of the quotes that matters the most, is when Alivebur, two weeks after the disowning, says Fundy was all he cared about in L’Manberg:

“Fundy, Fundy is very clearly on Schlatt’s side, look- Fundy was the closest thing I had to something I cared about in L’Manberg, when it all began. You know, when it started, the closest thing to anything I cared about was Fundy. Fundy was my, he was my, he was my boy! My rock! You know? And hearing what he said about L’Manberg and stuff is just… And when I heard him say that he had no care for me, I believe that. I think he’s so happy that he’s finally been given maturity in L’Manberg, you know. Like, Schlatt’s giving him the maturity he’s been craving, you know. And that’s cool. That’s fine. You know? I have no issue with that, he can do what he wants.” - (Wilbur’s who are you go away: 1:44:10, 8th Oct)

Alivebur believed 100% that Fundy didn’t care about him, that breaks a parent no doubt. People act like Fundy never hurt Alivebur, and that he was unjust in his hatred but... that’s not true at all. Alivebur lost everything when his son betrayed him, because he had already lost his nation, his son was the last thing he had.

But Alivebur is also self-aware to why it happened, talking about how Schlatt gives him the maturity Fundy had wanted. He knows how his own actions and words had led to this, maybe even knowing he had hurt Fundy.

Which finally leads us onto the despise quote itself:

“Fundy, I despise you, you were my son and you just betrayed me. I have nothing to say to you.” (Wilbur’s The Meeting: Nov 6th, 35:55)

It’s not fair to take this quote out of context, like so many do. On its own, without everything else in mind, sure it looks bad, but with how Fundy hurt Alivebur, how it broke him, it makes a lot of sense. 

After weeks - possibly even years in the SMP timeline - of believing Fundy had betrayed him and wanted nothing to do with him, Fundy walks back into his life and reveals he’s a spy. Not only is Alivebur going to find it hard to trust that, but he’s also not going to forgive Fundy straight away. 

He had been hurt for weeks, if not possible years, of course he’s not just going to say he loves Fundy and move onto the plan. Yes, despise is a strong word, but look at the latter half of the quote. 

“You were my son and you just betrayed me.” - This is one of the most important parts but no one ever talks about it! It can be implied from this that Alivebur sees family as the strongest bond, since this line implies he wouldn’t have expected a betrayal from his own son. 

Which is why he despises him, which is why he as nothing to say to him.

Alivebur is a complex man, but pretty clear cut as a parent. He was overbearing, too protective, trying to keep his son from responsibility, from following in his footsteps in a leadership position that only caused Alivebur stress (and possibly caused his depression).

He’s a parent who thought he could rely on his son being on his side, only for his son to back his opposition at the debates, only for him to make his own party and then commit voter fraud (which you know like father like son in terms of rigging voting :P), only for him to stay in Manberg and cheer his father’s exile, only for him to disown him and claim he was never his father, only for him to reveal he was a spy wayyy too late.

It’s tragic, this relationship between them. Alivebur hurt Fundy by being overbearing no doubt, but he was never neglectful. The only time Alivebur had nothing to do with Fundy was after Fundy himself betrayed him. I think it’s rather harsh to say he had left him or neglected him with that in mind.

And ultimately, Fundy blames Alivebur for leaving him alone in the world. He still cared and missed him, and says himself that Alivebur left him when he needed him the most. But I also think that’s a bit harsh on why Alivebur died too, he didn’t do it to hurt Fundy, he did it to hurt himself.

Anyway... I hope this helps, Anon. I tried to be real sensitive but, I don’t know, you probably haven’t changed your mind anyway, people are pretty set in this fandom :P 

But I really care about this father/son relationship - in fact I talked about it for hours last night with a friend - so I feel like I can sometimes shine a new light on some of the facts :)