#i know mdzs has no specific canonical time period

[lgbtlunaverse]

[fannish-karmiya]

Onto another fandom gripe of mine...I have for so long seen Jiang Yanli get hate, and in particular people often say that she failed to help WWX while he was in trouble in the Burial Mounds and should have done more for him. I’ve even seen posts which are very reasonable and not hateful of her at all say things like this, and I think one issue at play (beyond the misogyny inherent in some of the more hateful takes about her) is that a lot of fandom doesn’t seem very familiar with what life was like for women in Chinese history. Or history in general, actually; a lot of the broad outlines are really similar across many time periods and cultures.

This isn’t going to be a full essay with sources and quotes, I’m just doing a sort of rough talk about it, so please bear with me. A full essay with some actual academic sources on the lives of women in Chinese history, comparing it to what we see in MDZS, could be really interesting, though, and I may earmark that as something to do in the future. I have the sources on my pc and bookshelf anyway!

So. One thing JYL gets criticised for a lot is not helping WWX when he settles down with the Wens in the Burial Mounds. People say that she shouldn’t have just brought him some soup and showed off her wedding dress, he was starving and poor and needed money!

But I think people don’t quite understand the social structure at play here. Money in Chinese families was (and sometimes still is today) communal, and the head of the family had the final say in what was spent and on what. We see,, near the end of the novel during the extras, LWJ give WWX a jade token and say that can be used to draw sect money. WWX, meanwhile, as a kid used to be able to just pick stuff up at Lotus Pier and it would be put on a tab which JFM paid off at the end of the month. The head of the family can see what money is being drawn from the sect coffers and by whom, and if it’s being spent on something they disapprove of how do you think that would go?

JC would absolutely not allow JYL to draw sect money in order to send it to WWX, and she could hardly give WWX anything during the wedding dress visit, which JC monopolised the whole time. What could she do, hide some money or jewellery in the soup bowl?? And after JYL marries, any money she has access to is her husband’s money, ultimately controlled by her father-in-law who is one of WWX’s greatest enemies.

Now, you can say that JYL could have sent him money secretly, but this would wind up causing far more problems than it would actually help. JYL and WWX are not related by blood, and we see time and again in canon that cultivation society does not respect her claim that they are siblings (look at that scene at Phoenix Mountain where she defends him; everyone refrains from directly disparaging her due to her social rank, but no one wants to give in, either, because they disagree with her). Immediately after this scene Jin-furen doesn’t want to let JYL go back down the mountain with WWX, because they don’t have a chaperone, to which JYL reiterates again that WWX is her brother (which Jin-furen ignores).

JYL trying to send letters or gifts or money to WWX, a man she is not related to who is not her husband, would have, if discovered, led to accusations of adultery. It could have ruined her reputation and marriage and caused a lot of trouble for WWX, to boot. WWX would surely not have accepted such attempts on JYL’s part if she did make them, knowing the consequences if they were discovered.

JYL did what she could for WWX; she spoke in his favour frequently (the gossipers during pt1 of Nightfall note that she speaks fondly of her shidi a lot) and encourages her husband to invite WWX to their son’s one-month celebration. Had it not been for the ambush (a plan which JZXuan was kept out of the loop from specifically because he might disapprove or tell his wife), then the meeting could have served as a means to re-invite WWX back into ‘polite’ society. It could have served to show everyone that WWX really is just living peacefully in the Burial Mounds and isn’t a threat.

The idea that JYL betrayed WWX or was selfish in marrying JZXuan and marrying into LLJ ignores two major issues. One is that who JYL marries, or if she marries at all, is really not up to her. It’s the decision of the head of her family, her brother at that point. And as I’ve written about before, I think there’s some subtext that JC was quite happy to marry JYL into LLJ and make a stronger alliance with them, regardless of whether she still cared for JZXuan or not. Women were essentially viewed as the property of male family members for much of human history; even up until a few decades ago (and still in many countries!) women couldn’t do things like open a bank account or rent or buy a house without a male relative or husband to co-sign for her!

This would leave JYL with only one option if she didn’t want to marry into LLJ: to flee. She could either try to marry someone else (who? especially who would be willing to defy both YMJ and LLJ in the process), probably using a ‘Romance of the Western Chamber’ tactic in the process, or she could...run away? What would fans have her do? Run away to Yiling and live with WWX and the Wens in the Burial Mounds?

The exact same problem, only more extreme, would come up then. JYL is, remember, a woman in (fantasy) ancient China, not a full citizen with the right to make her own life decisions. JC could just refuse to accept her decision and instead claim that WWX kidnapped her, which may well have given the Jins the excuse they needed early in order to rally the sects against WWX and mount a siege. Even if people accepted that JYL went there of her own free will, this would surely have led to the sects believing that JYL was seduced by WWX and they were having an affair. JC already stabbed WWX in the guts during their duel (not that I believe JYL ever knew about that). What would he have done if he believed that WWX had ‘stolen’ JYL away from him?

I think fandom often judges JYL as if she’s a man and has all the freedom of movement and self-determination which that implies, but she’s not. She’s a woman under the thumb of first her brother then her husband and father-in-law, and she doesn’t even have strong cultivation, not that that would change the way society views her.

[chocolatepot]

I posted 11,102 times in 2022

That's 11,102 more posts than 2021!

384 posts created (3%)

10,718 posts reblogged (97%)

Blogs I reblogged the most:

@ourflagmeanslgbtqia

@snake-snack-stede

@edwardteachonthebeach

@blakbonnet

@forpiratereasons

I tagged 10,555 of my posts in 2022

Only 5% of my posts had no tags

#ofmd - 5,777 posts

#ofmd meta - 715 posts

#writing - 394 posts

#history - 378 posts

#fandom - 341 posts

#fic rec - 329 posts

#ofmd s2 wishlist - 303 posts

#star trek - 237 posts

#tumblr - 231 posts

#mdzs - 184 posts

Longest Tag: 132 characters

#lieutenant colonel dmitry illarionovich pertsev (russian: Дмитрий Илларионович Перцев) was a soviet military conductor and composer.

My Top Posts in 2022:

#5

Some OFMD fic recs! Specifically, some works in progress that you should subscribe to for a periodic shot of joy in your inbox.

evermore, by vitruvianwatson (M, Ed/Stede, 13k and counting) - Written in two timelines, reunion and post-reunion, the former dark and angsty and the latter more cheery and sexy. Only four chapters so far and I am looking forward to more!

Chains of Love, by threerings (E, Ed/Stede, 20k and counting) - Technically only just a WIP, as there's only one chapter left to go. This is a rather dark reunion fic, kind of whumpy, particularly at the start: while on his way to a reunion, Stede gets captured and sold as a prisoner to Ed, who is still pretty angry. But they are Ed and Stede and so they come back together ...

Bark and Bite, by Fyre (M, Ed/Stede, 25k and counting) - An AU in which Ed is a vampire and Stede is a werewolf, but otherwise the rest of the plot/universe is the same. It is an adorable and fun reimagining of the show, and every time it updates is a treat.

passing ships, by astudyinrose (M, Ed/Stede, 23k and counting) - A more comprehensively AU'd AU, in which Stede was sent into the navy and eventually is captured by Ed. This adds an interesting social barrier between them, especially as Stede still doesn't know that Ed is Blackbeard!

If You Were Mine To Keep, by Pamplemousse (E, Ed/Stede, 28k and counting) - Another AU, this one even more alternate! Ed takes the Act of Grace much earlier and is put in an arranged marriage with Stede. I love arranged-marriage stories and I love the idea of Stede as a total neophyte on Ed's ship. Fortunately, there should still be 11 chapters to go!

How Edward Got His Groove Back, by MadHatter13 (M, Ed/Stede, Ed & Lucius, Ed & Jim, Ed & Frenchie, 43k and counting) - Reuuuuuuunion! It moves nice and slow, with plenty of time spent in Ed's perspective before he meets up with Stede again.

Aftercare, by perkynurples (E, Ed/Stede, 133k and counting) - Another reunion fic, this one starting pretty much from the moment of reunion, with a lot of plot involving other pirates and the navy and disguises. TBH, if you're reading this you're probably on the Aftercare train already as there are more hits than words on it, but I want to be thorough!

the knife and the throat, by darcylindbergh (E, Ed/Stede, 35k and counting) - Also a reunion fic. This one is deep and rather literary, IMO, and it goes in an unexpected direction. Not saying more!

The Only Hope For Me Is You, by Bexby (E, Ed/Stede and Ed/OMC non-con, 29k and counting) - Severely whumpy, read at your own peril. An admiral in the English navy takes Ed prisoner on his own ship, and Stede and the crew have to find him and get him back. Check the tags for specifics.

To Capture Every Minute, by hopeless_eccentric (T, Ed/Stede, Stede & Alma, Ed & Alma, 11k and counting) - Set several years post-canon, Ed and Stede find Alma stowing away on a ship they're raiding. And then they start planning their wedding!

Chiaroscuro, by MenaceAnon (T, Ed/Stede, Mary/Doug, Ed & Mary, Stede & Mary, 19k and counting) - Mary-centric. Ed and Stede have to pop into Mary's for a bit as Ed's wounded, but Stede has not persuaded Ed to forgive him yet. Mary's perspective on them is fresh and interesting!

Such Joie de Vivre, by louciferish (M, Ed/Stede, 43k and counting) - This is one I only just picked up. An AU in which Ed is a professional thief and comes to case Stede's mansion for a mysterious treasure, but gets hooked into being the kids' nanny. Rather fluffy and I am loving it!

340 notes - Posted July 8, 2022

#4

Heartened by the response to my costuming meta, I'm going to write something bossier about a pet peeve of mine that will make all of my new followers leave.

I am always, always seeing descriptions of Ed and Stede unlacing their or each other's pants/breeches and I am here today to tell you that that doesn't make sense.

We don't often get to see the tops of Ed's leather pants or Stede's breeches, but when we do, we see what's called a "fall front".

(I haven't come across a good screencap yet showing this on Stede's breeches, but it's there. We don't see it a lot because his waistcoats cover it, but when he's just in a shirt and breeches, like the "run me through" scene, it's visible.)

In Actual 1717, breeches tended to have a buttoning front fly like you'd find on a vintage pair of jeans. Waistcoats were generally about knee-length and fully covered the breeches, as you can see in my earlier post about fashion of the period. As a result, it didn't really matter how clothes looked at the crotch.

In the second half of the century, men's clothes got tighter and more body-conscious, waistcoats being made shorter and coats with cutaway skirts. Tailors likely developed the fall front in response to the fastening of the breeches being suddenly on display - it smooths everything out and hides some of the buttons. Here's a terrible old b&w photo showing how it works:

See the full post

489 notes - Posted July 29, 2022

#3

Am I the only person not getting the AO3 spam comments? What's wrong with my fics, huh? Not good enough for the bots?

774 notes - Posted December 7, 2022

#2

One thing I tend to see really disparate takes on is how much of Stede's presentation is masculine or feminine, and I keep thinking about it. The tricky thing is that of course standards of masculinity have changed between the early eighteenth century and now, and at the same time this production is very much not one that's going to be historically accurate in such a way that it confuses the audience!

So, 1717 masculinity first.

See the full post

1,269 notes - Posted July 24, 2022

My #1 post of 2022

THE Captain Bonnet suit is, of course, the light turquoise one from the first and ninth episodes, the one most fanart depicts him in.

This is wildly different from what he wore in his old life! The color is vivid - colorS, actually, because the waistcoat is slightly different in both iterations - and the coat and breeches are made of very shiny satin. The coat is also dripping with braid, and actually has shaping to accentuate his waist and flare out into skirts. Each end of his cravat has two lacy ruffles, and they are not hidden at all. He's still wearing the secondary tie, but it's much thinner than the others, hardly covering the main cravat. There are rosettes on his shoulders, like military epaulettes but more delicate. And the shoes, of course, have adorable white bows rather than buckles.

The other outfits Stede wears as a pirate have lots of similarities. Very bright colors, contrasting in the same outfit. The lacy cravats, frequently without a colored necktie on top (especially after he gives the black one to Ed). Closer fits. Velvets and satins. Embroidery. The all-white "man for sale" outfit!

See the full post

1,962 notes - Posted July 24, 2022

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[mostlikelytofangirl]

Why do many people in this fandom think that jc and wwx do not care about each other since the beginning when it has been constantly been made clear again and again about how those two care about each other ?

Some of them even have the galls to say that jc was evil and malicious since he was a kid.

I am new to this fandom and I am really confused by their approach of hating on jc and hating on people who like him . Btw , you have a great blog .

Hi there! Thanks, I'm glad you like whatever this is :'D

Oh man, yeah, I know that feeling. It was very weird to me too when I was new to discover how much of a controversial topic this was, especially since I considered their relationship one of the most fascinating, complex and engaging dynamics of the story. Yunmeng bros storyline is tbh one of the greatest tragedies of mdzs.

Well, as I replied to a previous ask, I think the main problem with this fandom is that it is too Western YA mentalized. They see this story in terms of black & white where the protagonist/hero and all those aligned with them are incapable of doing wrong and, therefore, anyone who disagrees with them is a Bad Guy and their arguments are automatically invalid, the protag's way is the only way.

I think this current trend of hypersanitizing media and "antis" also play their role: if someone is "toxic" they are a Bad Human Person, always were and always will be. These ppl can't imagine a reality in which someone you loved and who loved you back could ever turn against you without having them be monsters all along. They need to justify their high horse, make themselves feel morally superior by making clear distinctions of who is Good and who is Bad, and those who fit each category cannot, ever, change.

In WWX and JC's case specifically, I'd say it's just a matter of numbers tbh. I know for a fact that there are ppl who hate WWX and claim JC did nothing wrong too. It just so happened that, well, WWX is the protagonist and we see the story through his pov, so his fanbase is naturally bigger. Not to mention his story arc is perharps the only one with a happy ending, while JC's is left open, to say the least. So narratively speaking, and considering the standards we are used to in the West, the ones to get closure are Good Guys, those who didn't cannot be Good Guys.

With all this in mind, I suppose it's easy for JC haters to see canon and all the explicitly stated dynamics of love and companionship WWX and JC shared, and just... act like those weren't there. Like they meant something else. Like WWX (the hero) was right and good all along, but JC (the bad guy) couldn't have been a loving brother once, no, that's not how it works: if you are bad, you are bad, whatever goodness you could have had was retroactively nullified by This Bad Thing you did. You are a bad guy, bad guys don't do good things ever, not even as kids.

And all of this without taking into account the societal convetions of the time period and how WWX was not an official part of the Jiang family, he was never adopted, he was the first disciple and, if anything, he got preferencial treatment that blurred and complicated the family dynamics (by no fault of his own, mind you, none of the three kids are to blame here). He is not exactly a servant, but he is not a relative either; the fact that JC treats him as a brother is already outside the norm... but bc it becomes the norm for them, ppl may look at JC (the Jiang family and society in general) pulling the rank card and get outraged: See? That's proof that JC never saw WWX as an equal and never cared for him! Yes, bc they are not equals. Yet they treated each other like they were. In fact, it's canonically stated that WWX think of himself as a servant and it's JC the one who says that he is not to be compared to a servant.

It's all a big mess that definitely doesn't help the case of seeing WWX and JC's dynamics in a fully objective way, and tbh I don't think it's meant to. It's supposed to stir emotions and HURT. But with so much nuance and so many conflictive feelings and circumstances between them, sometimes the mental and emotional labor to fully appreciate it is too much for ppl used to media giving them the product already disected and ready for consumption. Thus we have a big portion of the fandom that simply reduces these two to The Hero and The Evil Brother.

And that imo is even a greater tragedy.

EDIT: I just remembered of this twitter thread that explains much better how Westerns would see these two and the archetypes they represent, and why it impacts fans’ perception of them.

[mdzs-owns-my-ass-i-guess]

Following this post , here are my thoughts on Madam Yu, Wei Wuxian and abuse.

I will start by saying that I will be referring to canon novel and the donghua because they are my most familiar adaptations. Moreover, I will not be making reference to any real life cultural habits or traditions - MDZS is a fantasy novel within which many different elements of many different time periods are mixed, and I find any interpretation should primarily stick to the facts of the story and its own universe - though I am aware all works of fiction are written in a particular cultural context.

Also, I will be paraphrasing/describing the scenes I am referring to as arguments as I do not have access to a copy of the translation at the moment. If anything remembered is wrong, let me know!

With that being said, let's get into it.

Madam Yu was abusive towards Wei Wuxian. This is my thesis and my conviction and here is why:

- there are instances in which she decidedly singles him out for punishment, as was the case in the, I believe, Lotus Pod Extra, and it is explicitly mentioned that it is not the first time this has happened

- she openly blames Wei Wuxian for the Wen invasion of Lotus Pier, in front of Wang Lingjao and before she sends Wei Wuxian off with Jiang Cheng on the boat (I have already written a post about why that's not true)

- the way she "entrusts" Jiang Cheng to Wei Wuxian before she dies, with little regard to Wei Wuxian's own life (yes, Jiang Cheng is her son and it is normal for her to want to know him safe, but the way she said it, after blaming Wei Wuxian for everything although it all affected Wei Wuxian too made it feel like a cruel, bitter order of 'at least protect my son you scoundrel, you owe it to me')

- she was determined to perform severe bodily harm to Wei Wuxian AKA cut Wei Wuxian's arm off. If Wang Lingjao had kept her mouth shut about the supervisory office for a few more minutes, I am sure Madam Yu would have done it.

She had already whipped him within an inch of his life, and though frustrated with Wang Lingjao, she ordered the doors of the hall to be closed so she could go through with the amputation. In fact, the whole punishment scene did not seem to bother Madam Yu regarding Wei Wuxian's safety, she just hated that Wang Lingjao ordered it and acted like she was entitled to it.

- she specifically calls him the "son of a servant" in a demeaning way, and tries brushing it off as simply stating the truth when called out by Jiang Fengmian over it. Madam Yu knows this is an insult, and so does her husband, which is why he dislikes her using it.

It's meant as an insult also from the way that Jiang Cheng and Jiang Yanli treat Wei Wuxian when he says it (re: one scene during the Cloud Recesses arc in which Jiang Cheng tells Wei Wuxian he is no servant as he is not treated like one) or when other people say it (re: Jin Zixun in the hunt where Yanli stood up for Wei Wuxian).

- she is hostile towards him in general: before the Wen Indoctrination Camp, she ridicules Wei Wuxian's desire to join in, then after the Xuanwu Cave incident, she not only disregards his achievement, but uses it as a way to villainize her husband and accuse him of favoritism in front of both Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian

- she is meant to be seen as abusive. The way the text portrays her is that of a woman frustrated with a loveless marriage that her birth sect had persuaded her husband into, and she projects the lovelessness on the (rumored) fancy Jiang Fengmian supposedly had towards Wei Wuxian's mother. She often lashes out on people for no good reason and she is known as being vicious. Whenever she interacts with Wei Wuxian, it is to berate him for something, insult him or punish him. To my mind, this is abusive behavior.

- Madam Yu is coded as an abusive/ "bad" parental figure because her character openly contrasts with others':

Cangse Sanren, Wei Wuxian's mother, in his distant memories, appears kind-hearted and taught her son forgiveness;

Madam Lan is remembered as loving and even playful towards her children;

even Meng Shi appears as a mother who tried the best she could to provide better for her son despite her situation;

Lan Qiren, though strict, raised his nephews in the spirit of the rules he believed would guide them best in life.

Madam Yu is decidedly different from these people: not only is she very strict towards her own son (some have argued this is "Asian tiger parenting" and stems from love but I prefer to avoid entering this debate because I do not have the experience or the expertise with it and I do not want to discredit anybody's experiences), but she also shows no kindness towards Wei Wuxian either. Ever. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Madam Yu's behavior is written and portrayed in such a way that it doesn't appear "common" or "accepted" in the MDZS world. Most relevant parenting figures are very much unlike her, bar Madam Jin, with whom she is friends (birds of a feather...), Jin Guangshan who is absolutely despicable for many more reasons other than his horrible parenting, and Wen Ruohan. Even Jiang Fengmian, ever the passive man whose paroxymal laissez-faire in attempt to appease his wife and/or not fight with her, appears to be kinder.

Even if Wei Wuxian was allowed to share meals and spend time with the Jiang siblings (although he was not a relative nor adopted), that doesn't mean Madam Yu wasn't abusive (This is "I put a roof over your head and food on your table so be grateful no matter what" logic).

And despite all this, Wei Wuxian does see Madam Yu as a maternal figure of sorts. He bows to her altar and asks for both her and Jiang Fengmian's approval regarding Lan Wangji, and seems to remember her fondly - probably because there was nobody else in that position for him, given his parents were dead, and he saw the Jiang Sect and its two leaders as his de facto family.

[ouyangzizhensdad]

I love ur takes but I'm kind still impressed by ur persistent hate for cql. The novel is the base but all the medias adapted from it take a single aspect of the story and make it their own. Look at the manhwa, audio drama, donghua or the drama. I still dont know what ur issue with the drama is coz for a low budget drama with censorship they did everything they could for the novel fans (yes they recorded straight bit so if they had issues they will go straight but they are a drama)... yes they added a few things for the show to telecast it for the chinese consumption (they dont really need white validation unlike kdrama which has more ifandom). Both cql or winter begonia were handled very well and the dramas were overnight hits coz of the scriptwriters and directors keeping the novel story alive.

I think it's also coz u and most white fans of the novel or cql haven't seen anime and its live actions so u dont know that the live actions made in different periods of time change the story according to the area they're being released in... Itazura na Kiss has 3 live action dramas and all three are from different countries and different time periods so the way all three are adapted are alot different eventhough the base story is the same. If u want to follow the novel read that but if u want to enjoy the story cql, donghua, audio drama of MDZS and the manhwa are very nicely done. I hope just coz white cql fans have issues with the novel u dont spread hate for the drama that has made it possible for a relationship to be shown between two men. The asians arent as thick to think they're best friends, everyone who watches the drama knows that it's a gay love story

Hi anon, 

There’s a lot in there and honestly I don’t think I can address all of your points. But I’ll try my best.

I have said many times that I do not hate CQL and that I enjoyed watching most of it. It was a fun little idol drama that wasn’t a very serious watch. At the beginning I even enjoyed the fandom for a little while. Now, yes, I do post a lot of content that is negative toward CQL and/or its fandom. But you may have noticed a few things though. My criticisms (or my moments of incomprehension) are always related to:

Specific issues I have with the choices it made as an adaptation

People trying to pass CQL, a cheaply-made idol drama, as a masterpiece. This is nothing personal against CQL: it has more to do with how it puzzles me that people don’t see to know what competent and good tv looks like. I have nothing against people praising the show, but they don’t have to act as it doesn’t have a lot of basic, technical issues. 

the CQL fandom cross-posting everything, or bringing CQL canon and fanon into novel-specific discussions. People can mix and match the canons, of course, but it’d be a nice courtesy to be at least open about it so that people who want to stick to one canon may be able to do so. And it is frustrating because people like me have literally just given up on trying to read fics because authors are not forthcoming about which canon they are drawing from. That’s frustrating and a source of bitterness!

arguments that CQL is a stronger/more complex work of fiction than MDZS. Again, it’s nothing personal about CQL, it’s just mind-boggling having to explain something so fucking transparent. 

arguments that CQL is better “queer rep” than MDZS.

absolutely whack takes from the CQL western fandom.

You feel that the screenwriter and director kept the story alive, and hey, that’s great for you. Yes, I’m aware that adaptations will change things. Analysing adaptations is actually partly how I developed a lot of my media analysis skills. However, I personally believe that the story that CQL tells and how it chooses to tell it fundamentally changes so much about the narrative, the characters or even the genre of the story that it does not keep the truly interesting and engaging elements of the novel. It might be flippant to say, but even if the production team were truly doing their best (and I do believe they did), it doesn’t mean they achieved what they set out to do--and some of it may just come down to a question of skills, as story-tellers. 

Although I am white, I may not fit into the narrative you present since I have watched many live actions and animated series adapting a manga/manhua/novel. I watched my first jdrama 15 years ago, and to be illustrative, this first jdrama was Hana Yori Dango. In the past I’ve also watched many dramas that were originally japanese/taiwanese/chinese/korean and their adaptations. Hell, sometimes even adaptations that crossed to the western market. I assure you that I am familiar with a property being adapted at different times and in different countries and through different mediums. I’ve also interacted with the other adaptations of MDZS. The thing is, what this has showed me is simply that doing something differently doesn’t translate necessarily in doing as good of a job. Adaptations can fail, either by virtue of what they fail to do as their own work of fiction, or as adaptations of an existing property. 

I’m not trying to shit on to what CQL may mean for chinese audiences or diasporic chinese audiences as well. When I point out the fact that Wangxian is just subtext in CQL, it’s not because I think “asian audiences are dumb” but because the reason why subtext may be acceptable under censorship is that it keeps a level of plausible deniability. Some people will of course recognise it for what it is, but some will simply not pick up on it or refuse that reading. I also do take pains to remind people how the flow of capital that allows for these adaptations to exist may have to do with how far the portrayal of the subtext is being pushed over any concerns for the original story or nebulous gay rights. I do find it interesting though that CQL is often presented in fandom discussions as this unprecedented occurrence in Chinese media, since there was very heavy subtext in earlier live action adaptations like Guardians or the side couple in Love H2O, just to think of quick examples. 

But obviously anon, my more salty or bitter posts about cql seem to bring up frustrations, so if it is an impediment to your fandom experience it might be best to simply unfollow me. If you wish to stay for the novel meta and avoid these posts, I do tag them with either “brine corner” or “cql negativity” or “cql vs mdzs”.

[tonyglowheart]

Hello I see people in fics having LSX call WWX Baba but I've also seen people say that its too modern to use. Do you know what besides A-Die (what I've seen LSZ written to call LWJ by fans) would LSZ call WWX? Especially if its for a fic where wangxian raise LSZ together

Hi! I don’t know if you saw already, but I did toss a couple replies into the ask  you sent to ouyangzizhensdad. Someone else whose url I cannot remember off the top of my head did too, I think they suggested fuqin?

So... okay I glanced at the baike page for 爸爸 bc I was curious, and I kind of got the sense that “baba is modern” is sort of like a Tiffany Problem situation? Wherein it WAS around for a lot longer than ppl think, but because ppl have a certain association with it, and with specific terms (also like how people think Mister is modern, and Master is more archaic, but actually at some point, "Mister” was the more “formal” version, and “master” is used with, like, the children of the “Mister” of the household), it’s “impossible” to use in historical-y settings without throwing ppl out? (Actually it was so interested to me because I think it said that 父 used to be pronounced ba, and that has... Implications for like 父皇 which you’ll see in historical dramas, does that mean it used to be pronounced bahuang?? that just seems wrong lol.. for the same Tiffany Problem reason ppl have with ba)

Tbh I think you’ll have a lot less issue with it in the context of English fic, because I.. also want to throw in a general, writing-with-color style caution, to like... examine why you’re throwing in pinyin, and what purpose it serves. I do think there’s value in using these original terms in certain places, esp for relational terms, where there IS meaning imparted by the CN term that isn’t there with EN tls/approximates, but that just peppering it in for the sake of that “foreign” flavor isn’t always necessary. Like, furen doesn’t really need to be kept imo, because I think that translates fairly one-to-one to Madam, or “Sect Leader” (even tho MDZS’s usage of 氏 and then ExR’s translation of such as Sect and then the normalization of it does cause some issues as far as like, literal translation goes, I do think that it’s not necessarily a “wrong” choice to make, given the way that cultivation sects operate in MDZS and this sort of conflation of a “sect” with a “clan” or sort of like a ...feudal cohort kind of situation (I don’t actually know that much about feudalism I’m using the term more colloquially here D:). Another example I had thrown into the reply on the other ask, was a fic that I thought did a pretty good job in terms of trying to research and insert more “local flavor” but respectfully, but then bc I came across more posts talking about “well what is the purpose of italicizing foreign words, or peppering them in?” - I started noticing some things, such as their usage of “hanfu” every time to mean clothing, when really... if we’re talking “diegetically”/Watsonianly, they’d either call it whatever specific type of article of clothing each was, or just... clothing. Because the designation of hanfu, I do think, is more of a modern phenomenon? don’t quote me on this.

Okay to like... actually try to answer your question... I think a’die to me reads a bit more informal than I’d see A-Yuan call LWJ. In canon, he’s obviously close to LWJ, but still quite formal in his address (and LWJ is quite formal with his brother and uncle, but he’s obviously pretty close to them). Fuqin is an option, but it feels a little... cold, like that’s more something you would refer to other ppl’s fathers, or if you’re referring to your father to other people, and not necessarily something you’d call him directly? (this can be subjective thought, and it could be fine. It just... doesn’t seem to fit, for me. edit: looking at what some of these info pages in CN are saying, ppl see to say that fuqin is a common form of address for father by non-royals, so maybe that’s another form of Tiffany Problem, where it seems overly formal & distant. A source also says that fathers who have an official position would be called 父亲大人(fuqindaren)). I’m not sure any of the other variations I see seem to fit, since 生父 seems to be for blood-related fathers (or even if it’s not, the term is going to create issues), and 家父 (jiafu) sounds nice but it says specifically it’s used if you’re addressing your father to other ppl and want to do it in a more elegant way... just plain 爹 is a probably what I’d suggest as a happy medium, except then you have the problem if the pinyin being “die” and well.. So maybe “fuqin” is the best option here after all, just because of the English fic context? :’) I don’t like it though, I’d probably prefer 爹...

Okay sorry this is messy, but it’s... not a simple question, and I’m trying to give you some context for where I started and where I’ve gone with my rumination on this. Because kind of in the end... I still think a’die and baba might be the best way to go forward, because re: baba (1) the issues of “anachronism” aren’t an issue bc it’s not set in a specific time period where you’d want that level of specificity (2) you’re writing in English, and that’s already a level of removal from the original context and usage, so you’re balancing the meaning vs the “foreignness” it impacts to the fic too; and regarding “a’die”... it’s better than just “die” as far as how it reads in English :’) sadly :’) even though I think just plain 爹 might work better. 父亲大人 I think ends up a biiiit too hoity. Although. if you find baba too “anachronistic,” you could go with a’die and a’ba, which would parallel the “set” familiarity structure of the added “a-” we see in MDZS.

Also related but kind of sidebar: apparently the original meaning of 爹 actually is used for fathers who have fathered more than 3 children, which makes sense morphologically bc it’s made of 父 (father) and 多 (many) lol.. anyway

I know this was very long and kind of windy so if there’s anything you are confused about or have further questions on, please feel free to reach out again. Hopefully the added emphasis of the “conclusion” helps guide you to where I ended up as far as my ruminations on this question/issue go, and the rest of if helps to add some context on my thought process(es) behind the conclusion.

[multsicorn]

book-and-show

My preferred mix of the two canons is basically ‘The Untamed, but Wei Wuxian lost control of his zombies by his own goddamned self, and also plot/logic holes are taped over by explanations from the book when needed and possible.  And we know that wangxian are together and will be married, but we're left with spaces to fill in the details.’  (One of the cool/interesting things about having multiple versions of a canon is that one can mix and match!)  But there are definitely things that I prefer, separately, about each.

[two very long lists.  all of which are all about personal opinions/preferences, and none of which are looking to start discourse!]

Eight Things I liked better about the show:

1. "Who am I to you?"  "I had thought, that you were the one who knew me for my whole life."  "Still, I am." is *twenty zillion times* more romantic than a stolen blindfold kiss, in a way that pretty much encapsulates why I so much prefer show to novel wangxian overall.  And in this TED talk - I mean, in another post, hopefully, in not too long, I will.

2. Lan Wangji's explicit questioning of and overturning his understanding of 'what is right, and what is wrong,' rather than simply being motivated by 'if loving Wei Wuxian is wrong, then screw everything else.'

3. Introducing so very many characters earlier in the chronological timeline, and showing us more about them and their relationships prior to Wei Wuxian's death - and outside of the key moments in which they're involved in the plot.  Wen Qing and Wen Ning, Jiang Yanli, Mianmian, Songxiao, Xue Yang, Meng Yao - this list could also be its own post.

4. More focus on the Sunshot Campaign and its aftermath, pre-death, specifically on the period when Wei Wuxian is the feared necromancer, and he and his loved ones are dealing with that, against a background of war and then possibly more war.  It's by far my favorite part of the narrative, just because of my preferences re: genres, so I appreciate it being foregrounded rather than just a backstory that's shown in flashbacks.

5. The successive confrontations between Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji over 'leaving the right path'!  In the courtyard, when Lan Wangji pulls Bichen on Wei Wuxian to make him listen; in the sad umbrella rain, when Wei Wuxian holds Chenqing out in front of him, defying Lan Wangji's efforts to rein him in.  These things probably fall under the umbrella of the TED talk from the first point, but they're the beating heart of WHY I LOVE THIS STORY.  And they're not even in the novel...!  I thank the CQL team for my life.

6. Also, THE COMB STORY.  I'd never have thought either that 'how do we improve an m/m romance novel?  By adding a het romance subplot, of course,' but the fact is that I love the dimension it adds to both Jiang Cheng's and Wen Qing's stories.  Highlighting their shared loyalty to their clans - except not shared, because they're from different clans! - but their shared *understanding* of what righteousness, justice, etc., is, and the way it leads to their tragedies, and the way it's a counterpoint to Wei Wuxian's and Lan Wangji's different and ultimately shared understanding of 'what is right' and the way *that* brings *them* together is just... so good.  I am getting over it approximately never, and, again, it's show-original.

7. And I think the last big thing - other than, the acting's wonderful, imo, the visuals are great, (even the 'bad' special effects? I like 'em kinda ridiculous?), and when the prose-in-translation of all versions is iffy at best, (not judging MXTX's prose! or the scriptwriters'! but I unfortunately cannot read or understand it) it's REALLY NICE to have other major dimensions of the story that aren't lost or diminished in translation.  Honestly, I am only watching cdramas and not reading cnovels (I only read MDZS so I'd know what's in it) for that reason alone.  But in terms of *story* stuff -

8. I think that censoring wangxian's relationship down to the '(really really loud) subtext' level counterintuitively also makes the rest of the story seem considerably gayer.  If wangxian exists in hints and looks and narrative parallels etc., then likewise, so do the 3zun and Yi City triangles.  Not as much as wangxian, but they're more minor characters, and they're on the same continuum... to the extent that I legit thought that songxiao and xiyao would also be novel canon.  (They are not.)  If Wei Wuxian shocking Lan Wangji by showing him gay porn in the library, and commenting on Lan Wangji's beauty, is because he is actually into guys, then maybe Nie Huaisang lending Wei Wuxian that same porn, and also commenting on Lan Wangji's beauty, means the same thing, if that's all we have to go on. etc.

Nine Things I liked better about the book:

1. There's something about Wei Wuxian's narrative voice, the running commentary that he gives about others and most of all himself that is... funny?  Yes, it is, but that's not the part I love.  It's hard to pin down, but the pattern of the things he judges and the things he doesn't judge at all, even though maybe he should, but he really has so much empathy - in the literal sense, I mean, as well as the magical - is very specific and endearing?  He's exactly like that in the show, too, but we hear much less of it when he's not telling the story.

2. Getting to hear A-Qing in her Empathy fleshes out her cleverness and her bravery, again, in a way that's not easy to replicate seeing it from outside of her head.  (I think we may have more of all of the ducklings/juniors, actually, but I'm just not all that interested in their friendly banter.  Not when there's life-rending trauma in the OG of the same story!)

3. From the chronological start of the story, the Wens' domination and power-hunger is portrayed in a realpolitik way that's both more interesting and fits the rest of the story better, with the Jins later filling that same vacuum, and fearing Wei Wuxian's potential to do the same sort of thing to them, etc., as chronologically following and competing different takes on the struggle for power, without any need for the flat fantasy mcguffins of the Yin Iron or the 'spirit snatch.'

4. Wei Wuxian ~appreciating~ Nie Mingjue's dead body parts is hliarious. I love him hanging out with the corpse girls.  I love the Wens risingout of the blood pool for him ;___;.  Overall his relationship withthe corpses that he magics is such a cool weird fun part of the book,that is missing in the show except his friendship with Wen Ning for'let's make a show about necromancy but pretend it's not' reasons.

5. The fact that Wangxian don't split up and go their own ways at the end of the story, even temporarily!  I could go either way on 'Lan Wangji becomes Chief Cultivator' - I like the way that it moves into 'the future will be better than the past, and we'll work to make it that way', in the same way that 'the kids are alright' does, and the fact that Lan Wangji hates diplomacy and is bad at it can make for good amusing stories!  But I also approve of the fact that the personal win condition for so very many of these characters is to peace right the fuck out of sect politics, (like Mianmian our true hero does <3), and I believe in that as a happy ending.

6. Wei Wuxian's and Lan Wangji's complementary ~ravishment~ kinks.  I don't like the exact way they're written in the novel (and extras), but I *will* take and run with the existence of them, nevertheless.

7. The post-resurrection plot makes, um, sense?  Let's not forget the importance of that!  (But, honestly, 'must a plot make sense'?  It's not all that important to me, lol.)   Going from one place to another to collect the pieces of 'our dead friend's' body rather than seemingly at random makes the journey feel purposeful rather than direction-less, and gives an indication of progress that's not simply 'amount of the story read as per chapter count.'  Though it's still not clear to me why the juniors squad needs to be in Yi City!

8. It has more of Wei Wuxian's inventiveness.  Whether founding the Diabolic Path rather than 'just' inventing some tools and talismans within and also outside of it, or figuring out/explaining how some sort of magic works, whether lecturing to the juniors or working it out for himself, or something like that one night-hunting extra where he's being a supernatural consulting detective... it's fun to see more of his ~mind at work,~ in a way that doesn't fit as well either into an audiovisual medium or under the constraints of 'what is happening? definitely not corpse magic!' that censorship imposes.

9. The structure of revealing what happened in (what I can't help thinking of as) the main portion of the plot - who Wei Wuxian is, what his life story is, and Lan Wangji's part in it - through interleaved and not even necessarily in-order flashbacks is... so interesting?  Unfortunately I can't tell how well it would've worked for me in terms of changing my understandings of characters etc., because I watched the show before I read the book, so I came to it knowing the outlines of the story.  But it's a cool idea, and I wish that I could experience it properly!  (Though I would never have read the book without watching the show first, I would've failed out at the start due to translation issues and then if I'd persisted past that due to all the gay chicken stuff.)

[untamedunrestrained]

I have to do this!

I recently came across this post made by @vespertineflora and I hesitated before reblogging it because I knew this was a hornet’s nest but I fully agreed with it so I eventually decided to reblog it, because that’s my philosophy if something jives with me a 100% I reblog it, if it doesn’t I don’t. Anyhow, after this I came across multiple posts by @vespertineflora where they put forth their POV in the various sex scenes in MDZS and I really liked their answers which compelled me to write this post.

The one thing I have realised when it comes to MDZS is that all my posts in this fandom are beyond chaotic so I don’t think this will be any different though considering the sex is confined to only one canon of this story hopefully this will atleast make sense. Though as I start this I have no idea where this is going so it is definitely going to be a little chaotic.

At this point I feel it’s important to mention what experience I have already had with danmei. Because if MDZS is your first foray into danmei I can appreciate how crazy the sex scenes must seem. Anyhow, my first foray into danmei was with “Hua Hua You Long” and if the sex scenes in MDZS are problematic believe you don’t want to be within a 100 yards of “Hua Hua You Long”. But, I have a very high tolerance for writing that makes me uncomfortable so I persevered for very long with HHYL but when it became amply clear that the only kind of sex our two main characters are going to indulge in was going to be straight up non-con I gave up. Like, I think I even tried to see if it changed by the very end before DNFing but it didn’t. I get the feeling that non-con/dub-con might be a big part of danmei.

Anyhow, before jumping into MDZS and this was straight after I finished “The Untamed”. In fact, it was the very same day, I came across this post talking about how the sex scenes in MDZS were fetishizing and that the novel presented a rape scene between minors as erotica and touched briefly on their first kiss. Now this post was very vague so I really couldn’t prepare myself one way or the other but knowing my limits I delved into the novel anyway. But, I was hyper critical of any kiss /sex scene between WWX and LWJ because of that post because I was perpetually on the lookout for that rape scene which I had no idea how I was going to swallow.

Having read the novel, there is one point I want to make before we dissect MDZS in particular. This novel was written in an online serialized format so the end of each chapter had to be something that would have to be compelling enough to have people subscribed and to keep people reading the work which is a big reason in the novel the past and present are presented as they are because if you read the novel, LWJ and WWX are never apart for long, if they separate in the past we immediately jump to the present. If we jump to the past it is always to a scene where they will meet. There are very few scenes where they are separated for any length of time, one of which is at the very beginning and the second is at the time the YunmengJiang Clan is attacked and the novel while covering the bases doesn’t dwell for long in this period because it is a period LWJ and WWX are separated and your audience are mostly here for those two. So, you try to make the scenes where your main characters are separated as few and far between. This directly implies that you are catering to a specific audience and we need to realise that we are not that specific target audience.

This book is written in a very niche genre and it is meant to be consumed by people who like stories in that genre and sex is a big part of that and unfortunately so are the non-con/dub-con elements in sex. So, I feel that the reason the author mostly put the sex scenes in the extras was to cater to her audience that do expect these scenes while reading danmei.

The fact is that the story of MDZS is so good that it got multiple adaptations and the live-action show propelled it to a stage the author didn’t intend it for. She wasn’t writing for such an international audience, she wasn’t catering for it either. The worldwide acclaim this story has gotten is unprecedented, I can tell you this because I have never in my life watched a Chinese Drama (well, except for The Untamed now) and I have never in my life completed a novel in the danmei genre (well, except for MDZS now). The fact that this story has found such a stage and the only fault people can find with it are the sex scenes should actually be pretty extraordinary considering when this story was being written it was expected to be consumed by Chinese readers who enjoyed this specific genre.

So, yeah the story isn’t written keeping in mind the sensibilities of the West. The author never intended so many people from different nationalities and cultures to read her story and it was written for a target audience who reads this genre expecting it to meet certain expectations and sex is very high on that list.

Now, I agree that just because we aren’t the target audience doesn’t mean we can’t have an opinion on the work. The fact that the sex scenes in MDZS are non-con/dub-con to please a certain audience doesn’t mean that you can’t call them out for being problematic. They are and you can but remember don’t paint everything with a broad brush. Nothing is as black or as white as people make it out to be and ultimately that is the moral of MDZS.

So, instead of broad sweeping statements, I want to take this opportunity to really dissect the nuances in the kiss/sex scenes between LWJ and WWX because at the end of the day I do really love the story of MDZS.

Blanket Spoiler Warning for all novel scenes from here on out!

First Kiss at Phoenix Mountain

I probably wouldn’t have noticed this scene if not for that post that had me in a hyper-alert state but just because this is something I would have normally given a pass still doesn’t mean it’s okay.

The very first kiss between LWJ and WWX is a kiss that takes place on Phoenix Mountain while WWX is blindfolded. Basically, in the Phoenix Mountain hunt when Jin ZiXuan bulls-eyes his target in the archery competition, WWX tries to one-up him by doing the feat blindfolded which he succeeds at much to Jin ZiXun’s chagrin who then tries to rile him up and which ultimately has WWX claiming that he can do the entire hunt blind-folded and still be the better one at the end of the day. So WWX is blindfolded when he feels someone approach who then proceeds to kiss the living daylights out of him, literally he is so weak-kneed he can’t stand up after the kiss. But, given that WWX doesn’t know who kissed him there is no question of consent, he can’t see who is kissing him and therefore he can’t consent to the kiss. This is definitely dubious consent if not outright non-consensual.

There are certain hints that he isn’t completely at the mercy of his secret admirer, first being that the reason he is able to approach WWX is because WWX doesn’t perceive any killing intent from this person and secondly WWX is elated that this lone cultivator is approaching him at a time when most cultivators are atleast somewhat afraid of him, so he lets him (yes because we already know it’s LWJ) come closer than he would have otherwise and doesn’t even take a protective stance when he is smashed against a tree. When both his wrists are captured he decides to kick his assailant but is shocked into stillness because his assailant starts kissing him at this point. He struggles when he comes to his senses but when he realises how badly the person kissing him is trembling he can’t bring himself to struggle any further. But, he again struggles when the person starts to french kiss him but at this point is overpowered.

So, breaking it down, he consents to this person’s approach into his personal space, doesn’t consent to the kiss but backs down when he realises that this person is struggling with their own emotions, definitely doesn’t consent to being French kissed but is overpowered. So, consensual followed by dub-con followed by non-con. Of course, it must be reiterated that WWX can always kick his assailant away but for whatever reason he doesn’t. Overall this entire kiss is dub-con at the most and isn’t the healthiest thing in the world.

But, in the context of the story it is viewed differently. For whatever reason WWX sees this entire experience in a positive light.

The previous scene seemed to be an absurd yet erotic daydream. Recalling what it had felt like, formless tickles crawled up all the way to the tip of his heart. 

LWJ on the other hand is furious at himself because soon after this scene he can be found disintegrating a tree. Well, this proves two things, one he isn’t proud of his actions and second, that despite everything this is the only way he can express his love for WWX with WWX none the wiser. This scene highlights his struggle with what he already knows, he loves WWX yet he knows no way to express it. His parents were the worst role-models in that area and he has no concept of a man loving another man. His actions are wrong but the story portrays them more as cry for help, to showcase his struggle with his relentless feelings.

He had no idea that Lan WangJi was mad at himself—mad that he acted upon his urges, that he couldn’t control himself, that he took advantage of another in a way that was neither righteous nor abiding by his sect rules.

It is definitely dub-con but I guess it is more in service of character development than anything else. I’m curious as to what people feel about this first kiss. 

Second Kiss with Drunk Lan Wangji after the Yi City Arc

Well, according to WWX it’s the first and it’s anybody’s guess if LWJ has any idea it happened.

We all know LWJ has zero alcohol tolerance and for somebody who has only had alcohol for the second time in his life that’s to be expected and unfortunately there can be no proper consent under the influence so yeah, this one is definitely non-consensual.

But, people might not see it that way. In fact, I’m pretty sure (okay not so sure) they don’t see it that way. Well, LWJ is plenty eager for being licked by WWX and well WWX is fully in his senses but since you can’t consent to something you can’t fully comprehend, it is still non-con. 

The Hand-job with a once-again Drunk Lan Wangji 

WWX really loves taking advantage of a drunk Lan Wangji. Well, this time things definitely go out of hand. To the extent that WWX realizes that his actions might be very cruel and selfish. Again taking into account the fact that LWJ is drunk these again become non-consensual but surprisingly the reason LWJ has such a violent reaction to the whole act is probably because he believes he took advantage of WWX and then when he tries to help WWX clean up he is rejected making him believe that WWX didn’t want to participate when nothing could be further from the truth, considering he initiated it.

My God, these two are really horrible at figuring out what’s going on between them. No wonder it takes a huge intervention for them to come to their senses. 

The Sex Scene at the very end of the novel

Well, this is the only fully consensual kiss/ sex scene in the main novel. There are kisses followed by a blowjob followed by anal sex and all three are fully consensual. Though the third one seems to be rather painful, it’s still consensual. Also, while they are having sex WWX is constantly mouthing off that LWJ should have taken advantage of him back when they were fifteen and at the Cloud Recesses.

“If you liked me since such a long time ago, why didn’t you take me sooner? The back mountains of your Cloud Recesses would be quite a good location, wouldn’t it? When I snuck out to fool around alone, you should’ve tied me up and dragged me away, pinned me onto the grass like right now to do whatever you want to me…”

“You’re so strong, so I couldn’t have resisted. If I screamed, you could’ve silenced me. Or your Library Pavilion also would’ve been a great place, right in the middle of the scriptures scattered on the ground. We could’ve bought a few cutsleeve booklets to compare and learn, any position at all…”

Well, at this point the novel ends and as you can see despite it being about 900 pages long when translated into English it definitely doesn’t deliver much on the sex front so the author wrote a series of extras to make up for that deficit and it’s your choice if you want to read the extras with the sexual content. They don’t contribute to the story so it’s truly your wish.

Banquet (Parts 1-3)

This one doesn’t have any explicit sex scenes though WWX does try to play out a rape scenario but it fails rather spectacularly because LWJ has no idea what to do and when they try to reverse the positions WWX just gives in instead of actually putting up a struggle.

Incense Burner (Parts 1-2)

I’m finally here at the infamous incense burner extra. So, let’s do this (cracks her knuckles).

This extra is set on the premise that LWJ and WWX use an incense burner that transports them to a dream world where they both get a glimpse of each other’s dreams. WWX’s dream is of the two of them retired and living in the countryside in his own version of domestic bliss while LWJ’s dream is well, where this entire conversation on consent started. Now when LWJ first realizes which of his dreams they are in he doesn’t want to explore any further, he hesitates but WWX decides to investigate. While in the dream he tries to prevent WWX from seeing it to its full extent because he is definitely embarrassed by it. The dream they came across is of a fifteen-year-old LWJ raping a fifteen-year-old WWX and then seeing this the real WWX gets rather turned on and has very consensual sex with his husband, LWJ.

Truthfully, the weird thing is that this might be one of the best ways to deal with this kink and I don’t understand why people are so hung up on the rape scene because hasn’t it been made clear that those two boys are nothing more than figments of imagination. Really, we can’t impose consent on dream versions of people because they aren’t actually people. The only people who have sex in this scenario are the grown-up versions of LWJ and WWX who have consensual sex.

I feel that a rape fantasy is more easy to accept if the victim has it, like in this scenario if this was WWX’s dream the sentiment might have been different but considering this is the aggressor’s dream sympathies change and this is something LWJ definitely acknowledges, he fears being judged but all things considered it’s good WWX knows this side of him because considering how much he keeps spouting off about being raped he definitely wants to indulge in this fantasy. Though in no sex scene in the main novel or the extras do they actually indulge in such a fantasy.

There was also the point that we have no idea when LWJ first had this dream and considering how closely this dream follows WWX’s fantasy during their first sex scene might put the genesis of this dream at a later date which would imply that this wasn’t a dream born out of LWJ’s initial frustration and inability to understand his feelings towards WWX which does alter the perspective a little.

In fact, the second incense burner dream is more problematic when WWX gives a blow-job to an eighteen-year-old LWJ (for my sanity he’s eighteen) who is actually a dream consciousness of his much older husband, then proceeds to use the hilt of Bichen as a dildo till his husband in a much younger body decides to save his sword from the horror and fucks WWX himself. But, then he discovers that he likes spanking WWX and he proceeds to do so despite WWX’s discomfort with the act. Again, I don’t know how much the concept of consent can be applied to dream selves, but all things considered this would have been the more problematic of the incense burner extras. Because, the first part is definitely non-consensual followed by a sex scene that is at best dub-con. Again, this is all in a dream and WWX is never going to get the opportunity to have sex with a younger-version of his husband because he didn’t and now he can’t. So again, I have no idea if this should even be brought into the consent issue.

But, one of the best things about this extra is that when WWX wakes up from the dream he is scared that LWJ will spank him something he didn’t like at all and doesn’t desire to repeat. He tells him that and LWJ immediately tells him that he will not. Which speaks a lot about these two, they know they have to communicate with each other and I feel like they have a good idea of each other’s limits and while these two might be kinky as hell neither actually wants to do anything that the other will not enjoy. So, even though they haven’t always dealt with it optimally I can rest assured that they will do better in the future.

But, I truly feel like everyone in all this uproar regarding the alleged rape forgot that this extra is written for a completely different purpose. I feel like the real reason the author wrote this was to allow LWJ and WWX to have sex in their own bodies which is something they have never done!

From Dawn to Dusk - Rather shameless sex but all consensual.

Intrusion (Parts 1-3) - No explicit sex scene though it is implied.

Villainous Friends, Iron Hook (Parts 1-2), Lotus Seed Pod & Dream Come True - No sexual content.     

[pumpkinpaix]

hi again! previous anon here, just remembered a question. there's something that's been nagging at me about the show's lan parents storyline — LXC tells WWX that story about his parents and it seems like it's meant as a parallel for LWJ and WWX. But the Lan parents thing sounded like a super toxic/unhealthy relationship? like their mom was literally being kept against her will... maybe i'm just missing the nuance for the parallel? would love to hear your thoughts on this!

(ask con’t, sorry it’s long) i’ve just gotten out of a bad relationship not too long ago and gets really leery of cdramas portraying control as love (ie one love interest preventing the other from leaving, or clear power imbalances as with period dramas). i really don’t think that’s what’s happening here but got kind of uncomfortable too at the “i want to bring someone back to gusu/hide them away” line LWJ had earlier. might you have an alternate interpretation? i’m almost sure i’m misreading!

So a couple things first: thank you so much for asking me this question because my thoughts about the untamed/mdzs have been so much and turbulent that having a specific thing to focus on is really helpful, AND it’s also really flattering that you think I??? would have worthwhile thoughts???? about this really complicated thing.

Second: I want to make sure to say that no matter how strongly I feel about my interpretation, no matter how long I spend composing this response, you are not obligated to change how you feel. If that line still bothers you, it still bothers you. Our experiences are different! And it’s okay! That being said, haha, buckle up I guess, because WOW do I have a lot of things to say.

Spoilers up through episode 43, obviously, with allusions to the novel. I will try to keep any details about things that happen post-43 vague.

Let’s begin with this moment:

“Was he right to do this?” || “I don’t know.”

[id: image 1 is a screenshot of lan xichen asking “was he right to do this” and image 2 is a screenshot of wei wuxian responding “i don’t know” from episode 43 of the untamed /end id]

I think we need to think about how to answer this question before we can answer your question: how can we interpret the relationship between lan wangji and lan xichen’s parents? Was it moral? Was it okay? Was it right? This is clearly a question that lan xichen has been wrestling with his whole life. And from this scene, I think that he’s made his peace with the fact that it’s always going to be a question for him, not because the inherent morality is unclear, but because of the emotional subjectivity he’s always going to hold for it. He doesn’t expect wei wuxian to have an answer because he doesn’t have an answer himself.

Something that I remember from the novel that doesn’t make it into this scene, though, is what wei wuxian says after lan xichen asks, “can you understand why my father acted this way?” and he nods, is the explanation he gives: he hated the person who had murdered his mentor, but he also loved her so much he couldn’t bear to see her destroyed. Unable to live with himself, he married her, swore to protect her, and then imprisoned her for the rest of her life. Tormented by his contradictions, he then locked himself away as well. lan xichen agrees.

lan wangji and lan xichen were raised without their parents—largely, they were raised by their upright uncle, who, due to his brother’s behavior, took up the responsibilities of sect leader and parent at the same time. (It’s really no wonder that lan qiren has such a vicious dislike for wei wuxian: he loves lan wangji so much, and he’s so afraid to watch the child he raised repeat history. Beyond that, I think it’s pretty safe to say that lan qiren probably harbors not insignificant resentment towards his brother for the harm he did to both his children and to lan qiren himself.) Lan qiren is not married and as far as we know, never has any romantic entanglements after he begins raising the lan brothers. So where does that leave lan wangji and lan xichen in terms of models for romance? All they have is the fraught relationship between their parents. 

lan wangji is not good with words. He expresses himself primarily through action, which we see time and time again. When lan wangji says to lan xichen, “there’s someone I want to take back to the cloud recesses. take them back and hide them away,” I think he’s trying to explain (with words) his feelings for wei wuxian in the only way he knows how: by making a reference to the only romantic relationship to which he and lan xichen were firsthand witnesses. lan xichen canonically understands wangji better than pretty much everyone: he sees straight through him at Biling lake when he invites wei wuxian and jiang cheng along to hunt the water spirits because he knows lan wangji wants wei wuxian to come. He asks if he wants loquats even when wangji refuses them. So when lan wangji says that, lan xichen first repeats the statement carefully to make sure he understands what’s at stake, and then he says something very crucial: “you only fear that he isn’t willing”.

I think this says a lot— specifically, that both lan xichen and lan wangji understand firsthand the pain their father caused and what exactly was wrong about it. I think what lan wangji is saying between the lines is, “I’m in love with someone. I want to take them home with me. I want to hide them away from the world to protect them. I fear this makes me like our father, whose love led him to do such terrible things to our mother, and by extension, to us and our uncle. I can’t repeat his mistakes.” And lan xichen, understanding all of that, gets to the heart of lan wangji’s inner conflict: wei wuxian is not willing, and lan wangji refuses to follow in his father’s footsteps, no matter how tormented he feels about the person he loves, no matter how much he wants to.

Every time lan wangji tries and fails to get wei wuxian to return with him to gusu, it’s with the intention of trying to help him, trying to protect him from the other sects, trying to pull him back before he does something unforgivable, much like his father’s motivations for bringing his mother back to gusu (“he swore that this was his beloved wife and that anyone who wished to hurt her [for her crimes] would have to go through him”), but unlike his father, lan wangji never forces wei wuxian to do anything. He never keeps him locked up, never forcibly kidnaps him. Not only that, but lan wangji is also willing to fight wei wuxian when he believes that wei wuxian is doing something inadmissible: heis the only one to stand against his initial forays into demonic cultivation, and physically confronts him on the roof at the nightless city. Would he have actually followed through on killing him, had things gone differently? Maybe, maybe not, but at the very least, it shows that he, unlike his father, was willing to try to destroy the person he loved when he crossed the line.

Anon, you’re right that there’s a parallel between the lan parents and wangxian, but I think the key is how they parallel each other. Lan wangji doesn’t repeat his father’s mistakes. When he finally does bring wei wuxian back to gusu and hide him away to protect him, wei wuxian is not there against his will, and, I think also importantly, lan wangji is with him. It’s no accident that lan wangji’s residence is the jingshi, the place his mother was imprisoned for his whole life, and it’s no accident that he brings wei wuxian there. But lan wangji doesn’t lock him there and abandon him like his father did with his mother: he’s there with him the whole time. Lan wangji, when all is said and done, is finally ready to stand by wei wuxian in spite of everything he did, unlike his father, who couldn’t do so with his wife: couldn’t destroy her, couldn’t stand with her. lan wangji makes his choice. “I regretted that I couldn’t stand with you at the nightless city.” The parallel is one that emphasizes contrast in spite of similarity.

All this ties vaguely into bigger themes present within the story, particularly the tensions between freedom/restriction and parents/children. These are like, two whole other essays haha, so I won’t get too deep into the weeds (unless you or anyone else wants to ask me!!! bc, anon, believe me, I would BE WILLING!!!) but:

1. lan wangji and wei wuxian are fundamentally very similar people, even if their personalities are not. They have incredibly strong moral compasses and want nothing more than to be righteous and to live with clear consciences about their choices. The difference is in how they go about that. wei wuxian chafes under rules, breaks them when he finds them unjust or unimportant, and thinks that he doesn’t deserve to be punished. When lan wangji finds that his moral compass conflicts with the rules he chooses to live by, he prioritizes his own sense of justice, much like wei wuxian, but he also accepts the punishments that are given to him without complaint. wei wuxian cherishes freedom over all while lan wangji lives under strict regulation, but the point is that they both take it too far. wei wuxian is righteous to the point of arrogance, flaunts his peers’ judgments and warnings to his eventual downfall. lan wangji, after doing what he thinks is right, allows himself to be punished without protest so severely he’s bedridden and imprisoned for three years. I would say neither of these approaches is… ideal, and I think that’s part of why wangxian feels so profound. They temper each other’s worst weaknesses. (rereading this, i’m not sure i’m 100% behind everything I just said lol, but again, an essay for another time)

2. Like lan wangji is paralleled with his father, wei wuxian is paralleled with his mother, zangse-sanren: free-spirited, mischievous, and ultimately meeting a tragic end for the choices she made out of that desire for freedom. He too is able to eventually escape his mother’s fate, just as lan wangji escapes his father’s. The parallels between parent and child are strong for almost all the mains, though not all of them manage to free themselves and achieve some measure of happiness, and this in itself relates to the even bigger questions of what matters more: your heritage, or your actions? Your heritage, or your upbringing? What can you do to avoid making the same mistakes as your predecessors?

I’ve already talked about this wrt wei wuxian and lan wangji, but the same goes for characters like jiang cheng, jin zixuan, wen qing, wen ning, mianmian, jin guangyao, su she, nie huaisang, jin ling, lan sizhui, ouyang zizhen, xiao xingchen, song lan, xue yang etc. like the list is endless. Part of why mdzs/the untamed is so heartwrenching is watching history repeat itself while the protagonists, who are also acutely aware, are nearly powerless to stop it. The juniors end up being the breaking from all that: willing to defy their parents, make their own decisions about right and wrong, recognize that a person’s actions should speak louder than the rumors that run on their account.

tl;dr: the lan parents’ relationship is toxic and hurtful to everyone around them. wangxian absolutely parallels it, but in a way that highlights how they differ from their predecessors, tying into larger thematic issues of the story.

eek that was almost 2k words yikes!! I hope my enthusiastic rambling helped you see that “take them back, hide them away” line in a different light haha, but I want to say again: you’re not obligated to take my interpretation as fact, and you also don’t have to think everything about wangxian is perfect to still like it. We all consume and like imperfect stories! I totally get your feelings on weird power dynamics/inequalities in relationships because… it’s abusive? it’s terrible? It hurts to see?? esp given what you said about your own experience, like yeah, for sure!!! but for me? when lan wangji says, “I want to take someone back to the cloud recesses—take them back, hide them away”, it reads as a really powerful, self-aware expression of what it means for someone like him to fall in love.

EDIT 16 APR 2020: I find myself only agreeing with ~85% of this after many months of reflection. /o\ *hides face* leaving it as-is because it’s what I wrote at the time, but! you know. I have changed some of my views.

[thatswhatsushesaid]

I see you have songyao on your bio blurb, which isn’t something around on The Untamed I’ve followed so far.

Would you mind please laying the fandom brain worms on that for a newbie? Their early timeline interactions are very cute, but I suppose I hadn’t considered it from a shipping perspective

hello anon! I assume you mean 'sangyao' rather than 'songyao,' because I, um. ...while I am sure that there is someone out there who has written some flavour of jin guangyao/song lan and ships it for whatever reason, I am not that person lol. the other ship I enjoy sailing in this weird, fucked up little novel about gay sword wizards is jin guangyao/nie huaisang, and I enjoy it because it is so satisfyingly crunchy.

I'll preface this by saying a couple of things which may seem a little weird, but they bear mentioning anyway because I think my way of enjoying non-xiyao ships with jgy is not the norm lol. so:

I don't consider sangyao to be a 'canon' ship in the same way that I do xiyao (I'll die and kill on that hill, esp wrt how it's portrayed in the untamed/cql, but that's neither here nor there), which means I don't think there's a defendable argument to be made based on what we're given in the text alone to state that jgy and nhs have reciprocal romantic feelings for each other. however--

what they do have in spades, especially in cql, is fantastic on-screen (or in-text) chemistry, and pathos, and a shared victimization by nmj, and Tragedy™️, and in the magical land of transformative fiction, I fuck with that shit heavily. 👀 god what wouldn't I give for a post-canon soliloquy by nhs just going full-hamlet on the audience about killing his ophelia, if ophelia in this context also was the one who murdered his father. (and.. married his... mother..??? nevermind it's not going to transpose perfectly but you get what I'm saying.) if anyone has the chops for it in-character, you know it's nhs.

imo, jgy's love and devotion to lxc is something so integral to his character across all adaptations of mdzs that even when I ship jgy with other characters (e.g., nhs, su she, or even jiang cheng), I still write him as being in love with lxc at the same time. ('write,' she says, as if she has actually gotten any mdzs fic to a state where it is fit to be shared with the internet. lol) this last point is one that I don't believe is commonly shared amongst other people who enjoy shipping jgy with nhs or other characters, and that's fine obviously. I'm just mentioning it to emphasize that maybe my particular brand of sangyao brainworms are not the same species of sangyao brainworms commonly found in other corners of the fandom. but this isn't a bug for me with sangyao, this is a feature--because think of all the ways you can lean into this to create beautiful, painful romantic friction between jgy and nhs in this context? "why won't san-ge give up doing shitty things for his shitty father and just come back to qinghe with me?" well, a-sang, if he wouldn't do that even for lan xichen, why would he do it for you? just... just twist that knife, just a little.

I've written in a couple other places specifically about why I enjoy this ship: here (along with why I also enjoy suyao and... do not enjoy nie//yao, at all), as well as here, where I dig down into the stuff that throws me right out of the immersion of the story vis-a-vis jgy's characterization. (tl;dr, jgy doesn't want to be a nie, and he does not want to hurt nhs, at all, period, before the guanyin temple confrontation).

also, all the late canon sangyao vibes contained in all their beautiful, terrible multitudes inside artworks like these.

I hope these are adequate sangyao brainworms for you, anon!