#i think i should have included Miki/Anthy/Kozue in this

[horse-girl-anthy]

Pseudo-Incest in Revolutionary Girl Utena

while RGU contains actual incest between blood-related brothers and sisters, there are also relationships between characters who are not blood related, yet behave both romantically and familially towards each other. I believe that these pseudo-incestuous dynamics add an important layer to the themes of the work.

the most obvious pseudo-incestuous relationship in the show is between Nanami and Tsuwabuki.

although not blood related, there are many similarities between this dynamic and other incestuous couples in the show. most importantly, role confusion: although he is not her brother, Tsuwabuki wants to be; and although he is younger than Nanami, he wants to be her older brother. yet, when he approaches Nanami, this desire somehow warps into him being her "boyfriend," or more accurately, her servant.

Tsuwabuki is the youngest of all the characters, unable to understand the meaning of his interest in Nanami. at this age, the foundation of a child's life is their family, and they are likely to understand all relationships in terms of family dynamics. thus, when young people begin to develop their sexuality and enter into the world of adult relationships, confusion is bound to follow.

there is also an apparent draw to these confused dynamics. Ikuhara has discussed how in fiction, incestuous romance relies on the myth that “blood relationships are eternal.” by portraying both blood-related siblings who seek eternity in each other's arms, and non-related characters who blend roles, RGU is able to examine more deeply the dynamics which motivate incest.

Mikage's feelings for Tokiko and Mamiya are up for debate, but in my view, they aren't as simple as "romantic interest," in either case. rather, I would argue that he becomes fixated on them because of their relationship to each other.

Mikage is a lonely individual, an outsider with no significant relationships, family or otherwise. upon witnessing the tragedy of this little family, the sister's true care for her brother, the brother's gratitude and sad resignation, he is entranced. what Mikage is seeking is a family, and this comes out in romantic obsession with both siblings.

Utena is similar; as an orphan, she has no family dynamics through which to understand the world, and her desire for family is easily manipulated. she views Akio and Anthy as the ideal siblings, enjoying watching them interact in much the same way as Mikage liked to spend time with Mamiya and Tokiko. Akio is ready to take full advantage of her naivete.

in the final arc of RGU, Utena pseudo-joins the Anthy-Akio family, with all the baggage that entails. examining Akio's pattern of predation, it's as if he's trying to make everyone he meets into another Anthy--a younger sibling he can control and sleep with. thus, his relationship with Utena is pseudo-incestuous. it's my contention, as well, that Utena and Anthy develop a sisterly relationship in the show, as they live under the roof of the same patriarch.

-------

in his privacy files, lead writer Enokido stated that the prince's appeal is related to dependency, which "is a most serious matter for a mammal that cannot survive for several years without dependency after it is ejected from the mother’s body at birth." thus, rather than taking a moralistic stance, the creators of RGU understood that struggles with role confusion and dependency are natural parts of human development. however, Enokido also wrote, "people who are in love for real would not be chasing after the image of a prince."

pseudo-incest isn't just the result of a desire to have a family; it's a result of the erosion of the boundaries between individuals, the grasping after certainty, the drive to force closeness with others for one's own benefit. Tsuwabuki put his own self-image over Nanami's actual safety, all while claiming to care about her. Mikage wanted to be a part of Tokiko and Mamiya's family so badly that he tore everything apart at the first sign of trouble. and Akio is immature to the point that he can't conceive of a relationship not based on patriarchal, familial power. notably, when Utena and Anthy become true lovers in Adolescence, the family angle is dropped and Akio is no longer around to muddy the waters. whatever real love looks like, it isn't people replicating their own family dynamics eternally, and it won't be found in the chains of dependence.

[mikka-minns]

Opinions on characters: Kiryuu Nanami, Saionji Kyouichi, Tatsuki Shiori

Thank you for the ask! Im guessing its for the ask game(the general opinion is included so yeah) Sorry i didnt answer until now😅

Kiryuu Nanami

General opinion: She is everything to me. Her mere existance confirme half of my theories about Anthy and Akio.

She is a queen. She didnt deserve this.

The reason she isnt in the movie is because she realised the truth about Ohtori in time and when things started to go back to their bad nature she was able to leave.

She is the perfect first character to find out about Akio's abuse because she lived with one of his victims, he ruined her life in-directly and was about to make her another one of his victims. Her character and story are perfect, i would change nothing about her.

(i have a big post about her, Anthy and Shadow Girls to write so stay tuned for that)

A ship i love: i cant decide if i like the idea that Nanami is aromantic or a lesbian(so probably both) and i dont have a ship with her i realy love. I like Nanami x Kozue a bit, mostly for the parrallels, but i have my own problems with Kozue(which is its own topic), so im not sure how much i actualy ship it. But then again, most of my Rgu Ships go under "after 15 years of therapy they can actualy date", so... Who know.

A non-romantic relationship i love: her friendship with Utena and Anthy and her friendship with Saionji. I wish she got a chance to apologize to Anthy once they were both in a good place and far away from their brothers. For Saionji, i hope they got to meet after he left Ohtori with Juri and Miki. If he grew as a person(which is necessery for escapong Ohtori) he would be a great big brother. Also, the egg episode realy sells me the idea he is her brother figure. "No appreciation for brotherly advice".

A NOTP: Nanami x Touga and Nanami x Akio(OBVIOUSLY). I havent seen anyone ship it and GOOD. That is a one way ticket to hell. I Also dont like Nanami x Saionji, but thats mostly personal opinion cuz i see them as siblings. Might Also be the age gap but idk.

My biggest headcanon about them: as i said, SHE LEFT THE OHTORI NOT LONG AFTER THE SERIES FINALE! She is also an animal person but is not used to them because of her family(cats trigger he trauma too). Once she and Anthy make up, BECAUSE THEY WILL, Anthy  lets her spend time with her animal friends, maybe even helps her adopt an animal of her own.

An idea for fanfiction: Nanami meeting with everyone from Ohtori after they escape, exploring their relationships once they arent under control of their abusers.

(this one is in my WIPs, i Just have to finish it) Weed bride. Anthy and Nanami smoke blunts together along with everyone else. They Also take over Ohtori. I dont wanna spoil anything.

Something that makes me think of them:

Songs "Oh no!" and "Family jewels" by Marina and the diamonds, "allies or Enemies"(about her and Touga) and "Take me to War" by crane wives. And a few more but this is on the top of my mind.

Kyouichi Saionji

General opinion: He was the perfect first antagonists for the series. He is so pathetic, no one takes him seriusly, which is a perfect foil to Akio being adored and trusted by many characters.

He most likely isn pure evil as he is still a child, but he should defenetly be taken responsible for his actions(abuse of Anthy).

A ship i love: touga x Saionji but ONLY AFTER 20, NO, 40 YEARS OF THERAPY! They both hurt each other, they should solve their problems. I wish we saw Saionji's Thoughts about Touga in the movie, but hey, we cant have everything.

A non-romantic relationship that i love: as i said, he would make a great brother to Nanami. As i doubt either of them will ever see Touga again, they could help each other with the trauma. Saionji defenetly has family problems, everyone does in Ohtori.

I also like his friendship with Wakaba, i dont ship them tbh. I feel like she can put him in his place with ease(she beat Utena up as a petty joke).

Not realy a positive relationship, but his rivalry with Utena is very intresting. He is like a trashy version of her. Their straight love intrests are each other's real crushes, but they project. This would all be solved if the world wasnt homophobic. I want them to fight, middle-school-girl style cuz Saionji would get his ass handed to him.

A NOTP: saionji x Akio (OBVIOUSLY) and Saionji x Nanami (again, its just my personal preference)

My biggest headcanon about them: he projected Touga onto Anthy. Thats what kinda stings about how he treated her. Its obvious that relationship was going nowhere, but he never even liked her for her and so it was Just cruel.

He feels as if he isnt good enough for people around him and was at some point jealous about Touga's relationship with Akio cuz it seemed like Touga was so much more mature that he was getting attention of another adult.(angsty i know, but its based on reality)

A fanfic idea: him and Nanami meeting again(as you can see, im very normal a out them)

Maybe an AU where he and Touga dont go so off the edge ti become the pricks they are in the canon and instead Run away with Nanami and live as a little family(THIS SHOW HURT ME, OKAY)

In weed bride, Anthy wrecks his shit cuz he was with Touga and she was about to end Touga so obviously he will get some too. (that fic is Just pure crack)

Tatsuki Shiori

Something that Reminds me of them: tbh i cant think of anything right now.

General opinion: gurlfailiure. I love her. Just another child in a cruel world. She only had the worst adults to look up to and so she hurt the Ones she loved the most. She has room to grow and redeemed herself, she is only a child after all.

I think her place in the movie was great because of that. (i think her role was methaphore for what happend after the series finale, Just like with everyone else)

A ship that i love: i like Juri x Shiori and kinda Shiori x Kozue(both girls are disasters) but i wouldnt say i love either of those. Again, years of therapy, then they can get bitches.

A non-romantic relationship i love: not sure

Maybe her relationship with Touga cuz i dont see it as a real romance. I like it for the narrative(its not realy healthy) and how we found out a lot about Touga trough it.

I think her relationship with Ruka was a perfect example of an older guy messing with a younger girl. Toxic and cruel.

A NOTP: Shiori x Akio (look i have to make sure its known i do not unde any circumstances support these Ships) and Shiori x Ruka(he is an abusive asshole. A mini Akio, if you will)

My biggest headcanon about them: she is queer and full of internalised homophobia. She loved Juri but she is Just another pawn in Akio's game and so she could do nothing but hurt her. I dont think they made up after the end of the movie, im not even sure Shiori escaped, so idk if they even met after.

She liked Touga less because he is a prince and more because he is like a rose bride(like her, in a way) but is not a girl so its fiiine(side eye).

A fanfic idea: i dont have any right now

Maybe exploring her movie role and/or her mindset trough a fanfic?

Something that Reminds me of them: again, not sure.

[jewlwpet]

Do you know what ''tamago to BETTO no damashiai'' refers to in ''An Immortal Emperor in a Mundane Universe''?

Thank you for this question; I love talking about this stuff!

First of all, I am one of those people who assume it should be “BEDDO.” That makes more sense, and it SOUNDS like BEDDO. I can’t actually verify for myself what the written lyrics are because I don’t own any albums containing this particular song, and @empty-movement‘s link for viewing the scan of the page in question is broken, so I cannot say with 100% surety that EJ Translations is wrong to have rendered it as  ベット and not ベッド... but I know they’re very easy to get mixed up. There’ve even been typos in the lyrics booklets themselves (There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Seazer meant “Patrocles” but wrote “Patroclus” by mistake in the gnomon song--or maybe autocorrect changed it), so even if I got proof that EJ’s transcription was correct... I’d still say it should be translated as “bed.”

That’s both because “BETTO” doesn’t mean anything that I’m aware of and because “egg” and “bed” have a connection, and one that relates to the rest of the song. A bed is a place of conception, and conception=eggs.

From the entry “philosophical child” (”Yes, a child of the earth is conceived, the philosophical embryo.”) in A Dictionary of Alchemical Symbols (I sadly don’t have the “bed” entry saved):

Duringthe conception and birth of the Stone the alembic is known as the *womb or the*bed of birth. The Stone is known as the *orphan and the alchemist plays therole of its foster-parent.

This is only just now occurring to me, but maybe Anthy appearing as the twins’ step-mother has something to do with this. This is also the episode where Kozue refers to Akio as her “Daddy Long-Legs.”

Anyway, I think this line expresses disillusionment, which seems to be the theme of the song, though that begs the question of whose disillusionment, because Miki, while duelling, is not feeling any such thing. I think that’s usual for songs in the third arc, though--they aren’t necessarily from the challenger’s point of view like the songs in the first two arcs are. Perhaps Kozue is the narrator here, a part of her that she isn’t showing as she outwardly pushes Miki onward.

I suspect that the titular emperor is the one mentioned in other Seazer music, including the Rose Egg Sophia and Barbara CDs, Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II. He was very into alchemy, “secret societies” like the Rosae Crucis, and the like, and it ended up costing him his throne as he was declared unfit for rule. The universe just didn’t deliver for him like he was counting on.

If EJ is right to translate the questionable word as “bets,” the meaning is probably something like that... and to be fair, the shadow play was about gambling. Only, I don’t see a connection between “egg(s)” and “bets.”

[docholligay]

Entire world, staring at Ikuhara: Y E S 

I am sure that Akio is going to speak to this point in literally the next breath, but I ever let an anime character finish their thought before commenting on it, would I even be me? But I wonder if he even does parse why the fuck this is a problem. IT’S A PROBLEM FOR SO MANY REASONS. But I think Akio and Anthy, too, see themselves as being outside of the world, outside of mere ethics of lesser people. They aren’t brother and sister, they’re the prince and the rose bride. 

We’ve seen a lot of wild-ass manipulative sibling pairings in this anime, with Touga and Nanami being a frame of reference for the manipulative ways Akio uses Nanami even as Nanami hates anyone who tries to get near him, but also Miki and Kozue. Kozue hates her brother on some level, but ALSO DOESN’T WANT ANYONE ELSE TO TOUCH HIM. I think that’s part of Anthy’s deal is she hates Akio but also feels protective of him. These two are so destructive to each other, so hateful and manipulative, but also they love each other, and continually fuck up people, including Utena, who might get them out of the situation, drawn toward each other again in some horrible perpetual motion machine that continues these duels ever onward. 

So I believe to some extent that Akio has no clue that what he’s doing is REALLY SUPER WRONG YES ebcause his sister and he have been wearing these treads of mutual manipulation and love and hatred and abuse over and over and over again. It seems like a little divot to him and no more. 

Please note I haven’t seen anything past this and am watching spoiler free! Please don’t confirm, deny, or explain anything to me! Even if I should be able to figure it out based on past episodes! Even if it’s cultural! Even if there is no answer! It ruins it for everyone when I get spoiled!

[the-cryptographer]

I was rooting around the Kozue tag bc Kozue is my fandom rn. But, even though I enjoyed my time in the tags, I am feeling kind of uncomfortable with the amount of ppl calling Kozue a slut or hyperfocusing on her promiscuity. I’m not talking about people bashing her or villainising her (although that is far worse) - I’m talking about people reclaiming the term slut or the idea of a promiscuous woman as something self-affirming and empowering. While I understand the need to reclaim the idea that a woman can be self-respecting and have a libido or be sexually assertive, it seems kind of grossly misplaced in this context. And, like, I understand where it comes from when Kozue’s brother has written her off for falling on the wrong side of the madonna-whore dichotomy, but let’s just forget about Miki and how he views this situation for a minute bc Miki is an idiot. Let’s just amass some evidence here:

- We know Kozue has a parade of boyfriends and that she never switches them out so much as amasses new ones. But we also know, when she tells us this, she is not bragging so much as relaying as she sits apart from her peers at the poolside, hunched in on herself.

- We know Kozue's parents functionally abandoned her and her brother in the fallout of their divorce, and we know Kozue seems to feel that abandonment much more acutely given how outwardly angry she is about it and how disparagingly she speaks of her parents. (“we’re wild animals after all”)

- We know Kozue is 13 and, while I think it may be a mistake to understand the characters in Utena as being functional and accurate portrayal of where teenagers at these ages would be child development wise (bc anime and bc utena) I don’t think the narrative has ever been shy about stressing the fact that Kozue-Miki-Nanami are meaningfully younger than Anthy-Utena-Wakaba in the same way it stresses that Saionji-Touga are meaningfully older.

- We don’t know who most of Kozue’s suitors are, but the only two we do know include Akio and Touga, who we know are predatory af. To some extent I think we can take them as exemplative of the kinds of relationships Kozue is pursuing.

- And, well, we also know that, at least to some extent, Kozue flaunts her sexuality to get Miki’s attention. (Let’s not go into how the narrative meant this, or what kind of attention she wants, or whether or not the narrative fumbled this point. The only point is that- regardless of whether or not Kozue should want Miki’s attention, whether or not she should value it so highly- she does. And I don’t think it’s strange that she does given he’s the only family left in her life.) Kozue at several points noticeably attempts to provoke Miki, changes her outward demeanor with regards to her romantic life for Miki’s benefit, and sometimes pushes away suitors whose advances she was welcoming only a moment before based on how Miki’s attention has wandered. Kozue’s hot-and-cold attitude towards her suitors itself has been somewhat thematic even when Miki isn’t immediately present, and I think you can take that in of itself to be indicative of her having mixed feelings about what she wants. At the end of the Black Rose Arc, for instance, she reverts back to wanting sweets and to be put to bed like a child.

So I’m not saying that there’s nothing physically or emotionally pleasing about sex that makes Kozue pursue it - like, I hope she’s enjoying herself at least a little - but I think it’s a mistake to read this sexuality as empowering or envision it as not primarily being part of a story where a neglected teenage girl is performing to the desires of the abusive men around her in order to have a very basic emotional need for attention met. I realise there needs to be a greater recognition of the fact that women can and do pursue sex and multiple partners for reasons that are not born of that kind of powerlessness, and that that’s something that should be celebrated instead of scorned. But... that’s not what this story was about, and I think it’s kind of disingenuous and disturbing to read it as such.

[empty-movement]

Everybody Chime In

Hey​ ​everybody!​ ​There’s​ ​been​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​excitement​ ​over​ ​Nozomi’s​ ​request​ ​for​ ​translation suggestions/corrections/preferences,​ ​so​ ​here’s​ ​the​ ​list​ ​I​ ​have​ ​so​ ​far.​ ​Remember,​ ​this​ ​is​ ​just​ ​for Episodes​ ​1-12,​ ​and​ ​our​ ​deadline​ ​is​ ​Monday​ ​night.​ ​Please​ ​please​ ​chime​ ​in,​ ​let​ ​us​ ​know​ ​how​ ​you feel,​ ​and​ ​let’s​ ​see​ ​if​ ​we​ ​can​ ​come​ ​to​ ​an​ ​agreement​ ​on​ ​anything​ ​that’s​ ​up​ ​for​ ​debate!

Edited to add: If you could, please reblog this when you answer, I’d really like to get as many eyes on it as possible so this is as fair as we can be!

Second Edit: Where I have used the word “correct” I am using it in the sense of correct to meaning or idiom, not correct as in direct word for word translation.

1. Utena-sama​ ​-​ ​seems​ ​like​ ​we​ ​can’t​ ​agree​ ​on​ ​what​ ​the​ ​translation​ ​should​ ​be,​ ​but​ ​we​ ​​can agree​ ​that​ ​Miss​ ​Utena​ ​is​ ​not​ ​real​ ​great.​ ​Also,​ ​in​ ​Episode​ ​11/12,​ ​Anthy​ ​uses​ ​Utena-san and​ ​it’s​ ​translated​ ​as​ ​Miss​ ​Utena​ ​as​ ​well,​ ​which​ ​ain’t​ ​great either. ​The​ ​options​ ​that​ ​have​ ​been suggested​ ​are:​ ​Mistress​ ​Utena,​ ​Master​ ​Utena,​ ​Ms.​ ​Utena,​ ​Lady​ ​Utena,​ ​Sir,​ ​and Utena-sama.​ ​Please​ ​reply​ ​with​ ​your​ ​preference! 

2. Episode​ ​7,​ ​‘Believe​ ​in​ ​miracles​ ​and​ ​your​ ​dreams​ ​will​ ​come​ ​true’​ ​or​ ​leave​ ​as-is​ ​with ‘Believe​ ​in​ ​miracles​ ​and​ ​everyone​ ​will​ ​know​ ​your​ ​feelings’. 

3. No​ ​one​ ​was​ ​gay​ ​enough! 

4. Remove​ ​hard​ ​subs.  

5. The​ ​opening​ ​fairytale.​ ​Current​ ​version:​ ​“I​ ​give​ ​you​ ​this​ ​to​ ​remember​ ​this​ ​day.​ ​We​ ​will meet​ ​again.”​ ​Proposal:​ ​Include​ ​little​ ​Utena’s​ ​line,​ ​“Pray,​ ​shall​ ​we​ ​meet​ ​once​ ​more?” 

6. “I​ ​wonder,​ ​I​ ​wonder,​ ​I​ ​really​ ​wonder?”​ ​(accurate)​ ​or​ ​“I​ ​wonder,​ ​I​ ​wonder,​ ​do​ ​you​ ​know what​ ​I​ ​wonder?”​ ​(more​ ​lyrical) 

7. The​ ​Miki/Mickey​ ​thing.​ ​Now,​ ​the​ ​issue​ ​with​ ​this​ ​one​ ​is​ ​that​ ​they​ ​are​ ​not​ ​just​ ​denoting casual​ ​friendliness​ ​here--​ ​if​ ​you​ ​listen​ ​very​ ​carefully,​ ​you​ ​will​ ​actually​ ​hear​ ​the​ ​difference. I’ve​ ​been​ ​told​ ​by​ ​Dallbun​ ​that​ ​it​ ​would​ ​properly​ ​be​ ​transliterated​ ​as​ ​Mikkii…​ ​and​ ​that​ ​in English,​ ​it​ ​would​ ​indeed​ ​be​ ​Mickey.​ ​So​ ​this​ ​is​ ​actually​ ​correct.​ ​But​ ​I’ve​ ​heard​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of people​ ​say​ ​they​ ​hate​ ​it​ ​too,​ ​so​ ​what​ ​does​ ​everyone​ ​think?​ ​Miki,​ ​Mikkii,​ ​or​ ​leave​ ​it​ ​as Mickey? 

8. Episode​ ​8,​ ​Feminisuto​ ​is​ ​currently​ ​(yes,​ ​I​ ​checked)​ ​translated​ ​as​ ​chivalrous.​ ​Obvs,​ ​it could​ ​also​ ​be​ ​translated​ ​as​ ​‘feminist’,​ ​but​ ​according​ ​to​ ​what​ ​I​ ​know,​ ​the​ ​meaning​ ​is actually​ ​closer​ ​to​ ​what​ ​we​ ​think​ ​of​ ​as​ ​chivalry​ ​than​ ​what​ ​we​ ​think​ ​of​ ​as​ ​feminism. 

9. Episode​ ​9,​ ​‘kamikakushi’​ ​is​ ​translated​ ​as​ ​‘kidnapped’​ ​when​ ​it​ ​would​ ​be​ ​more​ ​accurate​ ​as ‘spirited​ ​away’...​ ​like​ ​the​ ​movie,​ ​yes. 

10. SUFFIXES.​ ​Should​ ​the​ ​suffixes​ ​be​ ​translated​ ​into​ ​English?​ ​If​ ​so,​ ​are​ ​they​ ​fine​ ​as-is​ ​or​ ​do any​ ​of​ ​them​ ​need​ ​to​ ​be​ ​changed​ ​(aside​ ​from​ ​Utena-sama,​ ​we​ ​covered​ ​that​ ​already)? 

11. Episode​ ​5,​ ​Touga​ ​saying​ ​Kozue​ ​is​ ​‘easy-going’​ ​is​ ​a​ ​weird​ ​way​ ​of​ ​saying​ ​what​ ​he’s​ ​trying to​ ​get​ ​at.​ ​Possibly​ ​‘friendly’​ ​instead? 

12. End​ ​of​ ​the​ ​World.​ ​Sekai​ ​no​ ​hate​ ​is​ ​actually​ ​translated​ ​best​ ​as​ ​Ends​ ​of​ ​the​ ​Earth,​ ​as​ ​it refers​ ​more​ ​to​ ​boundaries​ ​and​ ​actually​ ​has​ ​nothing​ ​to​ ​do​ ​with​ ​apocalypse.​ ​We​ ​have three​ ​options​ ​here:​ ​leave​ ​it​ ​as​ ​End​ ​of​ ​the​ ​World,​ ​change​ ​it​ ​to​ ​Ends​ ​of​ ​the​ ​Earth,​ ​or compromise​ ​with​ ​Ends​ ​of​ ​the​ ​World. 

13. Episode​ ​9,​ ​Touga​ ​says​ ​“I’m​ ​an​ ​ally​ ​to​ ​all​ ​girls.”​ ​Due​ ​to​ ​the​ ​connotation​ ​of​ ​ally,​ ​this​ ​has​ ​in fact​ ​become​ ​completely​ ​loltastic.​ ​Is​ ​there​ ​a​ ​better​ ​way​ ​to​ ​put​ ​this​ ​or​ ​should​ ​it​ ​be​ ​left as-is?

Please excuse any mistakes, I’m not home and working from a tablet. I’ll check it over when I do get home to make sure. Also, please keep in mind that if you had mentioned changes in episodes later than 12, those are not included here.