#if you believe misandry isn't real i dont like you

[craycraybluejay]

Btw it has to be said that I don't like neither terfs nor baeddels (or "neo-baeddels",,, your cult leader is gone go home). Both are abusive communities riddled with transphobia in different ways, and if you hate trans men or try to make them feel bad for being trans men, then maybe get off my blog. Immediate red flag when someone uses tma/tme labels or tries to act like trans men do not experience gender based oppression or that somehow trans women are the only trans people that matter. Gtfo with that shit. It is exhausting having to learn about weird fringe ideologies because, for some reason, people who look down on or hate trans men decide to interact with me, a trans man. I don't have a dni, and I won't make one, but if you believe in "radical feminism" and this "men bad women good" "fuck trans men" etc nonsense and I figure that out I will block you. I am. So exhausted. You people are weird as fuck tryna justify abuse by some of the strangest shit that is really hard to imagine someone believing except when they are in an Internet Echo Chamber. So yeah baeddels or terfs *can* interact but only so I can block them on sight. Fuck "radical feminism".. hate how that word is used to describe fringe hate groups instead of like,, anarchafeminism or something. What a bummer.

[hirkyy]

Are you normal about trans women talking about their experiences with transmisogyny? Or are you secretly including them in the "oppressor" category in your post and hoping some stupid teenagers don't notice?

what the fuck are you talking about. yes my tumblr post has secret coding actually and im rubbing my hands together nefariously because i tricked all of you.

transmisogyny Is misogyny, but since tumblr users dont believe in misogyny everyone went full misandry truther under my post and pretended shutting down any criticism of the patriarchal structure that isn't limp-dicked "i think men should kill and rape less, maybe if we ask them real niceys and validate their victim complex it's gonna happen? :(" statements is gonna loop right back around to doing trans activism somehow.

cant fucking believe i made a post saying a woman can't express anger at her oppressors without being it being twisted into her being the perpetrator and not the victim, a "misandrist" or secretly a TERF, and all i get in my asks now is "hey op umm are you a secret terf?? 🤨" get fucking real, trans women get brutalized and killed every day by Men. If you fail to recognize this precisely as misogyny i cant help you.

i dont understand how tumblr users cant see misogyny if it bit them on their dick but it's like you have antennae fine tuned to sniff out some type of made-up secret evil coding in a woman advocating for herself and other women instead of coddling men every step of the way, because god forbid feminism is about women.

[mueritos]

How do you feel abt the topic of transmisandry? I personally don’t like the term (bc it implies that misandry is real), but a lot of discussions of specific transmasc oppression and transman oppression have devolved into people saying transmasc oppression is small potatoes and (in some cases I’ve seen) not real or just a by product of misogyny and there doesn’t seem to be any other term or tag where we can talk abt the oppression specific to transmascs , particularly trans men of color. So I wanted to ask your opinion on it, if you had one.

Hmm. I've had different ideas about transmisandry in the post and have sortve agreed with some aspects of it. I'll be inserting a read more.

It's true that transmen are treated much differently than transwomen, ciswomen, and cismen. But I also don't think coining this oppression as "misandry" is helping anyone. People don't hate transmen because we're men, they hate us because they think we're women. Terfs believe we're sisters lost to the patriarchy and trans agender, transphobes dont even see us as men, and lots of cis queer people infantilize transmen because we're seen as men-lite, again, not even as men. We're fetishized because we are seen as men-lite or as "pussy boys" (again, viewing us as women, and ofc theres nothing wrong with transmen calling themselves pussy boys, its just weird when cis people do it). I do genuinely believe we have, will, and do experience misogyny, only because misogyny affects everyone. Just because a cis man isn't going to be targeted by misogyny, he is still affected by it because of his distance from misogyny (he's not viewed as a second rate human for being a man), he profits off of it, but he is also forced to be a misogynist and internalize misogynist ideas that in the end do not allow him to be emotional, a caretaker, a father, a parent, a husband, and a good person.

Transmen do experience misogyny for the fact that we have lived as women, whether some of us view that period in our lives as us being women or just performing femininity; to be honest, it doesn't matter, because any perception of femininity is seen as inferior. I don't think its wrong to say that transmen experience misogyny, nor is it transphobic to say this. Like I mentioned before, misogyny affects everyone, and we all gain and lose from it in many ways. Female abusers gain from misogyny because they're seen as simply "crazy girlfriends/wives,etc" who do harm that is normalized within that archetype, harm that society as a whole accepts. Transmen gain from misogyny the moment we're seen as "cis-passing", because men will switch up their language around another man in regards to what they say about women. But transmen are affected by reproductive rights, sexual health access (abortion, family planning, birth control, STI/STD testing), and transmen are infantilized largely because we are still see as a lesser sex than cisgender men, something which I would argue IS misogyny. As a transmasc latine, I've had to face heavy gender norms that largely did not shift at all for me even after I transitioned. I was still expected to keep the house clean, cook, take care of children when needed, and while this should be expected of everyone, it was still something that was never expected or even seen in the cismen of my family. In fact, a lot of transmascs of color have to navigate the role of both, and while this is optimal as really everyone should just be doing both roles (and roles as in let's de-gender their functions, like everyone should be cooking, cleaning, doing housework, yardwork, child rearing, etc), it is again not really expected from cis men in communities.

I do think we can come up with a better term, and I've always opted to say "trans oppression" or "transmasc oppression", because while our infantilization and dehumanization IS different according to our status as transmen, I still have a hard time believing it is COMPLETELY different from womens'. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a transmasc who is open to the fact that we still have proximity to womanhood, much like transfemmes can be honest about their proximity to malehood. This isn't to say that transmascs or transfemmes have a "male priviledge" or that transmascs ARE women and that transfemmes are secretly men, or whatever else the terfs say, I think its just a fact that because we have to oscillate between various genders, roles, and identities, that that has made us gain the experiences of those roles we've had to inhabit, voluntary or not. I spend a lot of time in women's spaces, not just because as a feminist one should, but because women's spaces used to be for me! And truthfully, I think women's spaces should be open to trans people; our oppression is rooted in misogyny, just as it is rooted in racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, and etc.

As for a better term, I think its best to leave that up to the members of our community who have largely shaped it. My proximity to whiteness is far greater than other trans people, so if anyone were to come up with new language or terms, I would prefer to use the ones created by BIPOC trans people. I think it's one of the reasons why I prefer saying "trans oppression" instead of specifying a oppression; when we use hyper specific terms, we move away from the various intersections and similarities between other communities and their oppressions, similarities and communities who I think we need to have better connections and solidarity with. I think we can talk about how transmisogyny primarily affects the lives and well-being's of transwomen and still acknowledge that misogyny also affects transmen without stepping on any toes. I say this, of course, with disclaiming that we can't say this without acknowledging intersectionality (as I always make these claims with intersectionality in mind, but I do have to disclaim because I also realize not everyone walks through life with these intersections constantly in mind). Racism, ableism, colorism, etc need to be acknowledged in order to help those who need social networks, assistance, and aid the most.

I understand the need to label everything we feel; it brings community and a term to rally behind. But I think using the language we already have can do the conversation justice, we just need to have these conversations with nuance, which unfortunately for a lot of people, they just like...do not have. The lack of queer history, solidarity, and queer experience that so many people have...and then these are the people that end up speaking the loudest. The best thing i can say is build solidarity and community, continue learning, continue talking, and get off the internet. Queer spaces are much more meaningful IRL than online.

I hope that helped a bit. It's a bit lengthy and i could keep talking, but I would rlly appreciate any further thoughts, ideas, or critiques :)

[cherrytea556]

I use to be both against misandry and misogyny because I believed hating on a gender and not the person themselves is ridiculous. I use to think that because they meant similar things (mainly hating on a gender) then they must've been similar to each other.

But now I can say that while misandry is in no way similar to misogyny (as misogyny is deeply rooted in history that has affected generations of women both physically and emotionally in different ways unlike misandry that while can be a thing, is often mistaken as misogyny towards men most of the time) and most guys I see complain about misandry are usually misogynist themselves/hypocrites (Take Dr Shaym's 'You should shut up about male privilege' and '50 female privileges' videos for example), this black and white thinking on both sides can cause bigotry to prevail. While misogynists are obviously towards women and other groups, misandry are different, rather towards other marginalized identities like trans men/women, queer men, moc (men of color), non binary people etc...The most prominent example of this is through terf/radfem content as they have spread misandry but also bigotry towards marginalized identities like trans/non binary people because of that mentality (thinking transwomen are a danger and thinking transmen/ afab non binary people are either betrayers, confused, trying to not be oppressed, or all of the above). Misogynists also uses misandry to their advantage, painting women/feminist as evil man haters and that they're the ones who support them, taking advantage towards vulnerable young men, especially those who have been abused by or have bad experiences with a woman. An example of this is in Dr Shaym's 'The real reason men are refusing to get married' video where the their was a comment of a man describing the abuse he endured by a woman and ended it with how women were 'an different breed' of how they use to be from the 1980s and before who were 'devoted to their husband and kids' (a time where they would have lack of freedom/agency as people, hence why they were so 'devoted') to now who he describes the average woman now to be greedy, selfish, immature, needy and even can be a devil if they want to. That end of the comment is clearly rooted in misogyny that would've been from misogynists as it's glorification of women's oppression and demonisation of modern women are one of misogynists well known talking points. This isn't to say women cannot complain about men, in fact, they absolutely can especially towards misogynist clearly happy to take away their freedom. What this is saying though, is that we should instead advocate for nuance. And no, not nuance as in 'not all men' whenever women bring up sa or men being creepy.

Its nuance as in instead of saying; 'all men sa women', we should have a discussion of society's coddling of men through the 'boys will be boys mentality' and the toxic masculinity excusing men's predatory behavior because its 'in their nature' to be sexual and sleep with a lot of women, contributing to the problem of sa/sexual violence women go through and how they often get demonised/blamed instead of the perpetrators.

It's nuance as in instead of 'women vs men', its 'us vs the patriarchy', fighting against the crafted gender boxes society puts on us for decades. Reject the black and white, and embrace the grey.

On a last note though, if women dont trust, have fear of or dont want a man in their life, then that's completely fine and valid of them to do, They dont owe men anything and their not misandrists for healing from truama/bad experiences with men and/or creating a comfortable life for themselves. Their just doing their own thing, let them do so. Even if they dont like men, that's fine too. This post is specifically those who say that all men sa people, that their all sexual aggressive deviants, basically saying that their all stereotypes that toxic masculinity expects them to be. It's not towards women who just simply dont like men or not want them in their life at all, again its a valid choice that should be respected even if you wouldn't make that choice yourself.

[biggayarsonsbiggaytumble]

very cool that u seem to think women oppress men. misandry isnt real and youre 2 steps away from becoming a full on terf btw

lol i see why ur on anon because this is one of the dumbest asks ive ever received

so first of all you very clearly dont know what a terf is, you can't just call someone a terf because you disagree with them. I'm TRANS. i never said women oppress men and i dont believe they do anyways. (my actual opinion on that is a little more nuanced but im not getting into that right now with this schmuck) yknow because I used to be one of those?

doubly so because usually terfs are the ones who say misandry isnt real so if i supposedly think its real... how am I a terf? sounds like its YOU that's way closer to it than i am.

look up lateral violence, that might clear up some things for you. trans men experience different kinds of oppression and transphobia than trans women do, and that isn't misogynistic, transphobic, or transmisogynistic to say, that's just a fact. it's a little bit sad that not even trans women are by our goddamn side when terfs and transphobes already think we are both freaks.

also get off anon and stand by your words, i cant take you seriously like this, you coward

[omglr]

patiently momming the shit out this fuckin' potential serial killer...

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You both like feminism.

You: hi

Stranger: hi

Stranger: asl

You: 33 f

You: canada

You: you?

Stranger: m22 canada

Stranger: feminist?

You: yes

You: you?

Stranger: fuck no

Stranger: feminism is sexism and hatred of men, why would I support it?

You: meninist?

Stranger: not really

Stranger: just knowing the truth

You: where do you get this information from?

Stranger: online

You: ok

You: have you considered.... reading a book?

Stranger: no

Stranger: because with the ability to be anonymous online people will say the truth without fear of being outed for it.

You: interesting

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: Feminism isnt about equality, its about hatred of men and female superiority

You: ok, if you say so

Stranger: how is it now?

Stranger: not*

Stranger: women demanding a safe space free of men is seen as just fine

Stranger: a male only space is seen as "sexist"

You: uh, do you think their aren't men only space though?

Stranger: feminism cries about male dominance in politics and management positions , but when it comes to male dominance in jobs like trucking, mining, construction etc, feminists dont say a word

Stranger: there is men only, and to feminists thats seen as sexism

You: you seem a little worked up

Stranger: I mean, Boy scouts of America now allows girls in... wtf its the BOY scouts, girls want to be a scout? there is a thing called girl scouts of America too

You: yeah girl guides is a much better organization anyway

You: they also accept boys

Stranger: LMAO wow what guy would joint girl guides.

You: idk, a kid who likes camping and cookies

Stranger: I do like cookies

You: yeah, cookies are great

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: women are also entitled and selfish and think they should get stuff just because they are a woman

You: i think the word entitled gets thrown around a lot to describe people

Stranger: women expect a man to pay for the date.

You: but its mostly about folks asking for respect

Stranger: but I thought you bitches wanted "equality" oh wait...

You: like millenials are real entitled

You: for wanting jobs that pay a living wage

You: says boomers

You: who dont want to pay a living wage

Stranger: yeah

Stranger: but you NEED a living wage

You: yeah, we all need a living wage

Stranger: but women are entitled and think they deserve only the best of the best of the very best men who will do whatever she says and wants and no matter what shes always right

You: this seems like a narrow focus on what women are like

Stranger: its the truth

You: like, this is a pretty shallow stereotype that might be true for like 10% of college girls

Stranger: lol its true for all girls

Stranger: girls are shallow

You: but i guess if thats who you put on a pedestal, shallow girls

Stranger: all girls are shallow

You: mmmm, i mean, you might be misinterpreting women's intentions

Stranger: how so?

You: like if i saw you at a coffee shop and over heard you talking this conspiratorial feminist is evil game, i wouldn't be interested in you

Stranger: Im not 6'0 or taller, im not ripped af and I dont drive a BMW, your not interested in me

You: eh, again, i didn't say that

You: i'm not interested in cars or money or height

Stranger: sure

You: or muscles

Stranger: sure

Stranger: so your a lesbian?

You: but i can tell a dude is a self loathing weirdo pretty quick

You: i'm bi

Stranger: ok

You: women are easier to date

Stranger: sure

Stranger: im 22 and still a fucking virgin

You: for me anyway

You: yeah, that happens

You: some folks are late bloomers

Stranger: LMAO no, women are shallow

You: alright, well if you want to believe that that's up to you, but your world view determines your world

You: so if you can't open your heart and learn to trust women, you'll probably keep thinking worse and worse thoughts about them

Stranger: well im not good looking so...

Stranger: LMAO trust women... that is horseshit.

You: and find yourself in more situations where you can prove yourself right

Stranger: women are nothing but cheaters and liars

Stranger: let me tell you something?

You: ok

Stranger: I met a girl on here 2 yrs ago, shes down in Tennessee, we kept in contact on skype, became friends, fell for each other, admitted our feelings, fell even more for each other, hoped to meet one day, have our first times, maybe end up married and be forever. She met another guy and threw me away.

You: so, you were 20 years old and an internet girlfriend ruined your life forever?

Stranger: nope

Stranger: it just proves how unloyal and unloving women are

You: idk, that sounds kinda stupid

Stranger: plus my 3rd ex cheated after a month, not to mention other BS she did, I'll share if you wanna know,

1st and 2nd ex never even liked me

You: like, i'm being pretty patient with you here

You: this self loathing rap is pretty pathetic

Stranger: lol its hatred of women

You: yeah, its called misogyny

Stranger: and feminism is misandry

You: eh, not really

Stranger: sure

Stranger: women are hypergamous whores

You: eh, i mean, if you and i were the only people on the planet, i would say men are toxic dudes who have little self awareness and say abusive bullshit with so little life experience its kinda tragic if not a little dangerous, and that women are extremely patient and nurturing even to weirdos who don't deserve it

Stranger: sure.

Stranger: if you think im ever going to trust a woman again your insane

You: i guess it was more advice for your sadness but its up to you

Stranger: im not sad

You: eh

Stranger: I just know the bitter truth of life

You: i mean you sound angry, but its obvious where its coming from

Stranger: yeah

You: lol, what is the bitter truth of life?

Stranger: that women are nothing more than shallow unloyal unloving whores who only care about themself, love isnt real. together forever doesnt exist

You: are your parents divorced?

Stranger: never married, dont know my father

You: what's your relationship with your mom like?

Stranger: its fine

You: does she love you?

Stranger: yeah

You: is she loyal to you?

Stranger: i guess. im her only child

You: would she give you her kidney if you needed it?

Stranger: idk, shes not in great health herself tbh

You: would you give her your kidney if she needed it?

Stranger: yeah

You: well that's good

You: have you heard much about internet feedback loops and how it can hurt your self-esteem?

Stranger: yeah

You: i kinda think you should look into your online peer group and figure out if thats who you want to be?

Stranger: Im not on any forums or anything like that

You: like... behind the "women are all cheating selfish shallow whores" is like "a woman would never be loyal to or love me or find me attractive"

Stranger: that is true

You: and that says something about you that isn't true

You: that you aren't unlovable

Stranger: Im not

You: eh, you probably are, or could be

You: just maybe chill with the incel stuff

Stranger: im not. for one im not anywhere near cute. That alone keeps love away.

I have huge trust issues. A short temper,

You: have you considered seeing a therapist?

Stranger: no

You: i've been seeing therapist for like 6 years, they are pretty great

Stranger: well I dont need one

You: what about the trust issues and the short temper?

Stranger: you cant fix those.

You: yeah, that's what therapists do

Stranger: and all it takes is one asshole to come along and destroy it

You: they help you work through those things

Stranger: honestly, I rather just blow up when im man

Stranger: mad*

You: eh, again, you do you, but this is real good advice honestly

Stranger: im fine

Stranger: as for trust issues, I tried to get over it, just to be fucked over again

You: eh, yeah,

Stranger: so I will stay single

You: i have had shit come up in cycles through my life too

You: its hard

Stranger: yeah

You: anyway bud, i should go, but take care of yourself, enjoy this summer :)

Stranger: yeah, but you know whats painful

Stranger: ?

You: what?

Stranger: seeing a hot af girl at the beach in a bikini and knowing I'll never get to smash that

You: dude, just see a sex worker

Stranger: I dont wanna pay for it

Stranger: or get aids

You: eh, don't be cheap and use a condom

Stranger: I am very cheap

You: ok, well, put a fuckin tin can in your room, and everytime you think to yourself "I'm unlovable" but a dollar in it

You: or what ever mean things your brains says to you

Stranger: I've got a peanut butter jar of like $400 change in my room. just because why not

You: yeah, well $400 will get you a good looking woman

Stranger: yeah.. or it can sit here and be mine.

You: or like half an xbox

Stranger: ok

You: ok, good luck

You have disconnected.

[vtori73]

Hmm... you know that post that I did recently about Intercommunity problems within Queer community? Well, I would say the same sort of complaints can probably be directed to another thing I keep seeing that Ive become more "educated" on by various people effected.

I won't go into it though (yeah... THAT was/is a lie, lol)... BUT what I will say is that again, I don't fully trust someone speaking over a group like they are an authority and thus have a final say on what is "actually" discriminatory towards them or what actual discrimination they face/don't face.

Like I said not going into it fully(liar) but this is specifically about trans man or more specifically tme trans people and the bigotry they face/the problem they have with their issues actually being talked about/taken seriously. I follow plenty on Twitter who have expressed the sentiment of being tired of having their problems talked down, erased, and told are nothing more then transmisogyny. & the ones I've seen aren't doing this "making trans woman out to be some boogywoman" thats being claimed, the closest to this I've seen is specifically BLACK tme trans people talkinb about white trans woman and the problems of racism within the community from them & other white trans people & how that intersects with them being tme and thus treated/seen as "scary Black man/people." I'm not saying it never happens, BTW (the whole making trans woman out as the enemy/aggressive from tme folks), because that would be wrong BUT I word it the way I did because I HAVE seen this used as a blanket statement towards all tme people regardless of how they talk about the issue.

The intersection that race plays into transness just makes it hard for me to believe in people who claim the whole "oh what non-transwoman face is just misdirected transmisogyny." Maybe it is for WHITE tme people but maybe don't try and claim the same phenomenon for POC who experience gender differently from you because like everything else race plays a part in it!

Also the whole "trans man just face transmisogyny because discrimination toward men isn't a thing" REEKS! I will NEVER claim cis (white) men face discrimination for being men but AGAIN this is can NOT be said for MOC ESPECIALLY Black men! And I don't even mean Black trans men only I men CIS Black men face actual discrimination because of how racism/anti-blackness works. But even NOT taking that into account I still can't fully believe in this argument because it intentionally or not equates cis men & trans men as having the same amount of privilege, power, etc which... doesn't make any sense at all.

Cis (white) men do have privileges and DONT face misandry or an equivalent because it doesn't exist, it's basically equal to reverse racism, it's just not a thing! BUT transmen aren't cis men, they face their own problems, sure some pass but that's not limited to trans man/tme folks & "passing" has its own drawback/setbacks & conditions in order for it to work like that. And REAL quick want to add that im not saying what transmen/ tme folks face isn't ever transmisogyny because that would be a lie, Ive seen tme folks say the same but it's definitely NOT the only type of discrimination they face.

Anyway... that's my two cents, from seeing BOTH sides of the argument discussed by both various groups effected by these sorts of things. And, as always I'm open to being wrong of course because I'm only human and thus can make mistakes!

Also want to add that this isn't necessarily my own fight, as someone still trying to grapple with my own gender I don't personally id as trans (or at least not now/yet because again still questioning so I don't feel I can claim that yet) but I have been sticking different labels on and seeing what sticks (genderqueer being the current one, my gender/gender feels don't really seem to LIKE to stay the same... tricky bastard).

(also sorry if it starts to become harder to follow near the end, I was running out of steam so I hope it's at least gets the point across decently and I probably could have worded a lot of things better)