#in their s5 character arcs but also in defeating the UD/vecna

[cringengl]

Just thinking about Jonathan and Will's lies and what it means for s5....

[omartinyosef]

ST5 POTENTIAL SPOILERS!!!

GUYS I FOUND THIS ON REDDIT AND ACTUALLY IT'S QUITE INTERESTING

ST5 Leaks/Fleaks

Gen Plot

Season picks up briefly where we left off in 1986 before jumping into either late 1987 or early 1988. The season is contained entirely in apocalyptic Hawkins. Things with the government are shaky. Owens doesn't appear in the beginning of the season and it's unclear if he's returning, but Ellen Stinson is the new Owens. Hawkins is like a combination of the UD and Kamchatka.

Labyrinths/Mazes being important to both the supernatural plot and the interpersonal relationships. They're inherently linked.

Two songs to be featured are 'Listen to Your Heart' and 'Alone,' both of which were apparently foreshadowed in a previous conversation between Hopper and Joyce, similar to how Hopper's "I'm the puppet, you're the master" to Joyce in S3 basically foreshadowed Eddie's 'Master of Puppets' in S4.

S1 and 2 scenes being referenced are "Nancy and Mike's conversation in the bathtub" and "Hopper + Lando Calrissian"

Lots of importance in COLOR CODING and blocking from the final shot of S4, and a good chunk is told in the costuming—like passing the torch from one character to another as their arcs overlap. For example, Hopper and Will share the "am I the curse and therefore putting my loved ones at risk by being near them?" sentiment for S5, therefore their wardrobe in the final shot of S4 is similar. Joyce/Jonathan and Nancy/Mike's costuming also similar for the same reason, whereas Eleven stands out because she's the first one coming into her own this season. The white for her represents shedding of false skins.

Character duos this season will be primarily dressed in colors of blue/green and yellow/red.

There's lots of symbolism and foreshadowing for every character in S5 from the moment Will touches his neck in the last sequence of S4.

S4 focused on themes of lies and miscommunication, and everyone is going to have to work through these lies before they can defeat Vecna.

Murray and Argyle are both back. Dimitri and Yuri don't seem to be in the beginning of the season.

One thing left unresolved with the Russian plot. Something important will happen involving the machine and the green liquid from the Starcourt bunker. Reference of Dustin vowing to die with Steve when they initially discovered it.

Hopper, Joyce, Mike, Will, and El had to be away from Hawkins, otherwise Vecna wouldn't have won.

An important death that they're nervous about given the reception to Eddie (not Joyce or Jonathan—see details below).

Eleven

We'll see her unlike we've seen her before. A badass who doesn't take shit from anyone. Not a Monster, not a Hero, Jane. Think: adult El could be headed for a Charles Xavier type role.

Erica, Lucas, and El will share scenes together.

El has significant blocking and development with many characters this season.

Max, Eleven & Max

The "kaleidoscope of colors" from a script the writers posted makes a feature in both the scene where young El remembers her mother's love in order to defeat Henry in the lab, as well as the scene where El revives Max. This is significant because it's the first time we see El using her powers on someone in a non-violent way.

El was able to revive Max because of she, herself, being revived in the bunker by Brenner and Co. It's a show, don't tell moment from the writers.

Max getting Vecna'd was foreshadowed in the beginning of 2x01.

Will, Henry/Vecna, The UD

Filming was supposed to commence mid-June, but Noah and Jamie were set to begin in May due to more complicated costuming. Will is going to require heavy prosthetics at some point.

Will's character design is blocked in three stages. The more the UD bleeds into Hawkins, the more connected to it he feels. The gates being open will physically influence him, especially when he's not as mentally strong.

He's kind of like "the card up Vecna's sleeve."

It appears they want to confuse the audience about Will.

Will wrestling with his own morality

Henry/Will mirrors. Will will sympathize with Henry because, unlike El, he knows how and what Henry thinks, and he can feel him.

Vecna and Will are very similar, but the difference is Will is made stronger by love not hate. They will play into that duality.

Vecna was nerfed in S4 compared to how we see him in S5. He'll be much stronger.

At the beginning, he'll be taking a hiatus while he plans how to divide and conquer now that everyone's back together in Hawkins.

Soteria will be the key to saving Will. If they want Will to be untraceable to Henry, they'll have to insert it into his neck and it'll be painful. Vecna not having access to Will fucks up his ability to leave the UD.

Byler/Mileven Triangle

Apparently, it's complicated and up in the air as of now.

Mike dealing with guilt this season. He feels guilty/responsibility for El. He feels stuck in a loop that keeps him from a truth he's scared to face.

Will and Mike to spend a good chunk of the season together based on character designs and blocking.

Will telling El that Mike won't like being lied to comes back with the painting. During a pre-time jump scene in 5x01, while everyone's together plotting how to defeat Vecna and brainstorming how to save Max, Mike brings up the painting El commissioned for a D&D analogy. Will has to pull Mike aside and confess he lied about El commissioning the painting. Mike gets angry, because he doesn't know about Will's feelings and feels embarrassed that Will thought he was that pathetic he needed to be given a pep talk. Their own version of a "fight you can't come back from." Immediately after their fight, we get the time skip.

Mike's character motivations are unclear and seem to be kept under wraps. After the time jump, he and El won't be talking as much because he's keeping the details about Will's painting from her. She's gonna ask what's wrong between him and Will, and he lies/is very vague.

Joyce, Hopper, Jopper

Joyce feels immense guilt/responsible over Bob's death since she's the one that asked him to help in S2, which is why she pushed Hopper away at first.

Hopper has a secret from S1 that was never addressed, and it comes back to haunt him.

Joyce sustains an injury in S5 that is reminiscent of the way someone was injured in S3, but it isn't critical and she'll be okay.

Jopper are the most established couple after the time jump. Lots of bickering still, but Hopper trusts Joyce more than he ever has.

Jonathan, Nancy, Jancy

So far, does not seem like a breakup is happening.

Jonathan's still lying about the college letter and distant because of it, and Nancy thinks he's not as into the relationship and that there might be someone else. She confronts him, which leads to a talk. She's touched by the lengths he would go to try and protect her and any of their future children even from himself.

A moment where we're led to believe Jonathan dies but doesn't, like Hopper in S3.

Hopper-Byers Family

These five characters slowly unraveling their arcs together and have always been closely linked. Their perfect endings are together.

We see the family combining, especially in relation to El.

Joyce gets to witness Hopper being paternal and tender towards the boys.

Scenes with Joyce, Jonathan, and Will

Hopper being back lifts a weight off Jonathan's shoulders.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, now time to shine.

''(...) sentiment for S5, therefore their wardrobe in the final shot of S4 is similar. Joyce/Jonathan and Nancy/Mike's costuming also similar for the same reason, (...)''

Okay. How did we see Nancy in S4? Confused. Confused with the love triangle between Jonathan, her and Steve. Jonathan is her actual boyfriend. And Steve is her posible love interest again.

So, putting this in byler language: Nancy = Mike Jonathan = Eleven Will = Steve

If Mike's and Nancy's character's clothing is important at this point of the time line and that means they feel similar feelings, this could mean that byler has a chance. BUT then we read this: ''(...) He (Mike) feels stuck in a loop that keeps him from a truth he's scared to face.'' And

''Mike's character motivations are unclear and seem to be kept under wraps.''

THIS LITERALLY MEANS BYLER. FOR REAL. Like byler could be endgame. Also, remember Eleven's injury in S3? Do you remember the leak of a shoe covered in blood?

It's Joyce. ALSO YOU CAN READ THAT WE'LL HAVE SCENES BEFORE THE TIME JUMP. And here it comes. Look at this freaking hair:

Does this look more like this

or this?

The season 4 bowl cut right? So maybe this is right in some part? I dont know. But that could make sense why Will is wearing Mike's pants, because his clothes were in California by that moment. But i really do think that the pic that was leaked a few days ago is before the time jump.

Im so late with this info haha :) but i kinda think some things here make sense. Even if this is too well explained to be a leak.

[itsjustbyler]

S4/Avengers 3 and 4 analysis - P1

Obviously, spoilers from Avengers Infinity War and Avengers Endgame.

Improtant: This analysis is also from a byler pov. The next ones are going to be based on these characters, the parallels between them in the show and the movies and predictions to S5.

The characters and their parallels

William Byers and Steve Rogers

Both characters are kind and selfless. Both were victim of bullying and aways seemed as weak, small for his age and not manly enough. That only changed for Steve when he got his "powers". Will is still a target for bullying, but what used to be based on homophobia, turned into him being called a freak, "zombie boy". Those two characters are known for putting the others feelings before themselves. While Steve put his own well being in danger to save his best friend Bucky, lying to Tony about his parents, Will put his own feelings aside, lying to save the relationship between his best friend and his sister. While Steve throw himself in the airplane into the water knowing he was going to die, Will asked them to close the gate knowing he could die too.

Steve fell in love with Peggy Carter and he never moved on. She is the love of his life, but they couldn't be together because Steve "died" and when he came back, a long time had passed, she married someone else. After Avengers Endgame, Steve actually married Peggy and he finally found his happyness with her. William Byers is in love with Mike Wheeler for a long time. He is the love of his life but they can't be together because Mike found someone else when he was kidnapped. He tried to move on when he moved to Lenora, but he could. He thinks that they will never be together... Who knows?

El/ Karol Danvers/Tony Stark

El and Karol Danvers are very similar. Both characters don't know about their past, they think they are working for the good guys but find out that they are being used because of their powers. Karol Danvers was the first avenger when everyone thought it was Steve. El was the first Vecna's victim, while everyone thought it was Will. It all started with them. Their arcs is about finding independence and fighting for what they believe and not what people tell them they should. Speaking of "it all started with them", El also parallels Tony Stark. While Tony tried to create Ultron to save the world for them and ended up creating a monster (Ultron), El tried to stop One for killing more people and ended up creating a monster (Vecna). Both tried to live a normal life, but could never move on from their past. While El frustrated Vecna's plans since S1 without knowing it was him, Tony also frustrated Thanos' plans before endgame, to the point that Thanos recognized him. They never lost before. El now blames herself for not being able to save Max the same way Tony blamed himself for Peter. Tony did everything in his power to bring Peter back and he did it. Let's wait for El.

Vecna/Thanos

These two don't parallel to much, but we can find some. It was them all along. While Vecna was in control of the mindflayer possessing Will, the Demogorgon who killed Barb, was opening portals into Hawkins and Billy trying to kill everyone to get El's powers, Thanos was there from the first movie, working behind other villains to get the infinite stones. While Thanos used his "family", Vecna used the UD's creatures. Infinity War is Thanos' movie. Season 4 is Vecna's. Both nearly lost, nearly had been killed. But they won. At the end of Season 4 and at the end of Infinity War, both are missing. Thanos was found at the beginning of Avengers Endgame, but just to prove there was nothing they could do, they lost for real. It took them 5 years to find a way to finally defeat him. Vecna? Well, maybe it will take a while... Maybe 2 years?

***Please tell what do you think about this, I'm going to post the next part soon.

[that-thing-that-feeling]

I am really asking this as a fan of the show, do you really have any expectations from S5? I think the duffers are very repetitive in how they portray things, and the mistakes they did before continued to appear in s3-s4. The byers family getting ignored has been a theme on the show bc they just dont care. Jonathan and Will have been largely ignored within the narrative. They just keep pushing the love triangle drama instead of focusing on the characters arcs and make them justice. They give characters like Steve or Dustin an unnecessary amount of screentime meanwhile refusing to actually develop them, other multiple main characters are ignored/sidelined. Like.. what should i really expect here in terms fo writing? Are we jut gonna watch same drama and relationships appear without any development with the romances. The supernatural plot has been all tied to this one guy (Vecna) and El's just gonna defeat him at the end whereas the other characters will help to a degree. What's to watch and see there in terms of interest?

I think Will will actually have a big central plotline. I’m worried Joyce and Jonathan will be ignored in it so it won’t be a full Byers fam plot, or Jonathan will be cut out of it, and there won’t be a lot of Byers-Hopper fam :( I’m hoping they figure out a way to give all the OGs arcs, but they have their faves so idk that they actually will. I feel like Dustin mourning Eddie will take a lot of time in part thanks to fan feedback :/ I don’t know if we’ll get good small scale subtle character writing back bc they forgot that long ago.

I think in terms of expectations I mean what’s exciting is to see a resolution of the supernatural plot and why the UD is frozen, see Will get a plot again that ties into s1, hopefully see maybe the teens work together (altho watch them somehow manage to exclude Jonathan from both the Byers plot and the teen plot smh). I’m still hoping for Byers fam interactions; I really hope we get it. They will do something with the love triangle and we know there will be jancy scenes and I hope they really talk.

And in terms of expectations: we will see endings for these characters and that will be v cool to have tbh no matter what they are; like it is time and I want to know what happens to them. I’m also just here for any spoilers/hints lol.

[cringengl]

I honestly doubt that anyone in Stranger Things is going to have a 'tragic' ending (especially Will).

Stranger Things as a TV show is all about themes of friendship, family, hope, overcoming impossible odds and being your own person despite everyone calling you a 'freak'.

When I see posts about which characters are going to die and which stories are going to end in tragedy, I really do doubt that they are going to happen, especially if their death would be just to be 'realistic'. It would honestly go against the core themes of Stranger Things and would reinforce the idea that going against societal norms should be and will be punished (such as Will being gay, in love with his best friend and just being 'different' in general).

Stranger Things, isn't trying to be a 'realistic' show in terms of being pessimistic about the state of America in the 80s, it's instead trying to promote hope and defying awful circumstances.

But but but what about Barb, Bob, Billy and Eddie, they all had tragic deaths??

Honestly, I wouldn't call their deaths tragic, just sad, since they all have a purpose and Bob and Eddie even get to finish their character arcs with their deaths.

Barb- Barb's death is arguably the most tragic. She didn't know anything about the UD and had no idea how dangerous bleeding by the pool was. However, her death shows to Nancy how she doesn't want to be Steve's girlfriend and that ultimately Barb was right- she wasn't being herself. Barb's death also leads to the closing down of Hawkins laboratory, meaning that Nancy and Barb's family do get closure.

Bob- Bob spends lots of season 2 being insecure in himself and jealous of Hopper since he's so strong. However, Bob gets to be a superhero in his own right by solving what Will has drawn and then successfully getting them out of the lab, therefore concluding his character arc. His death is also one of the main obstacles in Joyce putting space between her and Hopper, a major s3 plot point and development in Jopper's relationship.

Billy- Billy's life is tragic, not his death. His death is the one part of agency he gets after being possessed by the Mind Flayer- which is actually more triumphant. His character arc is finished by him finally doing one good thing, sacrificing himself, instead of being the mouth breather he has been since he was introduced in s2. His death also serves as a major plot point for s4 due to its impact on Max.

Eddie- Eddie's death is extremely similar to Bob's in the way that it is established at the beginning of the season that Eddie is upset that he only runs away, but at the end he doesn't run away and fights the demobats to defeat Vecna, therefore showing his character development and concluding his arc. Although s5 hasn't released yet, I have no doubt that his death will have a major impact on characters such as Dustin, just like every other character death has (especially the ones that happen at the end of a season).

Two things that these characters have in common is that their deaths all had a major impact in the season after (there will be no season after s5) and that 3/4 were introduced in the same season that they died (Billy died in the season after he was introduced).

Finally, here's this quote from Finn Wolfhard (look at the the 2nd paragraph specifically):

(From here: https://www.gamesradar.com/stranger-things-season-5-finn-wolfhard-will-and-mike-future/)

Therefore, Will isn't dying and none of the main characters are going to die tragically either (not saying that none of them will die- they probably will, it just isn't going to be in a way that is depressing and takes away from their characters).

[cringengl]

Vecna, Will Byers and the importance of family in Stranger Things

We all know that family is important in Stranger Things, so much time is spent on giving El a family, which is juxtaposed to her 'family' at the lab. The reason the name "Papa" is so chilling is because it's an affectionate term that is being used for an abuser. Found family is especially important, not only shown through El, but Steve as whilst he might have started becoming a better person at the end of s1, his character development is truly shown through characters such as Dustin and Robin.

So what does this mean for Will and Vecna??

We all know of the parallels/similarities between Vecna and Will, such as them both being described as "sensitive", their mindflayer drawings, their connection to the UD as well as just looking similar. Although some believe that these similarities may be hinting towards a villain arc for Will in s5, I believe the opposite. This is because of the big glaring difference between the two characters- their family.

The Byers and the Creels are the complete opposite.

Joyce is a single mother, Jonathan is described in s1 (and in Stranger Things Puzzle Tales) as a "Lonley Freak", whereas Will is bullied for being gay (even if he hasn't come out), even Lonnie is shown to be living in a run down house with a young girlfriend. The Byers therefore are almost the opposite of a picture perfect family. Despite this the Byers are a loving family, who are always there for eachother. There are so many examples if this that I'm bound to miss a great one, but Joyce and Jonathan doing everything possible to get Will back safe despite being told he was dead, Jonathan and Will building Castle Byers and how Jonathan is always there for Will, the stories Jonathan and Joyce tell Will to stop his possession and Jonathan telling Will that he'll always love him in s4. Therefore, whilst the Byers don't look like an ordinary family, they love eachother like a family should.

The Creels are a picture perfect family. Their big house seems perfect, they have parents that are together with two children, everyone is dressed in nice clothes, it's the perfect example of the nuclear family. However, during Vecna's monologue, he says that the reason he hated his family was because they were awful people hiding behind a front, such as Victor making that awful mistake during the war but pretending to be a normal father. Vecna despises people conform, put on a facade, lie and so he is now trying to gain power to change the world, for what he thinks is for the better.

Whilst the Creels may have been living a lie, the Byers have not. Will has constantly shown himself to be truthful.

He can't lie to Mike about what he rolled in s1 ep1.

He is bullied for wearing bright clothes, but us not deterred from it (showing that he is being his true self).

Will, Mike, Dustin and Lucas are true to their nerdiness by dressing up for Halloween.

Will doesn't care for the expectations of growing up and doesn't try to conform to them in s3 by being the only one who still wants to play DnD instead of getting older.

Will even says to El that Mike doesn't like it when people lie to him, insinuating that Will doesn't lie to Mike at all.

(This is why the painting is going to be such a big deal in s5, because it's the first time that we really see Will lie)

But what does the difference between Will and Vecna's family mean for s5??

Since family plays such a big role in Stranger Things as well as themes like lying and conformity I feel that Will is going to be almost a mirror image to Vecna, in that they may be similar, but that doesn't mean that they are destined to go down a certain path. Vecna may point out all the injustices that Will has had to face and say "join me to create a better world since we are so alike", but with the love from his new found family, the Hopper Byers, Vecna will be defeated mainly by (and most likely by) Will and El.

Because El's storyline is also about family, I believe that is also what will fuel her to defeat Vecna.

Will and El therefore show how important family is and the support of the found family within Stranger Things may be the key to defeating Vecna, someone who never got to experience this.

WILL'S POWER IS HIS HEART

[that-thing-that-feeling]

The DB have been very insistent on going full circle in S5 (something you had theorized before), so based on the other things they’ve said in their collider/Netflix interview, what do you think they have in mind? I wonder if this means all the OG characters are gonna try to remember the day Will disappeared and look for clues bc somehow it’s the key to defeat Vecna?

Hmmm well you know what I wish it meant—that the supernatural plot comes back to the Byers fam and Will’s disappearance, and we get proper arcs for Will, Joyce, and Jonathan after multiple seasons of not having them. Plus, yk, full circle to good writing and character moments across all characters and groups. So I was really happy when they said it would come full circle to s1, bc that seemed to make the most sense.

But the Byers being involved again in the supernatural plot is still more of a hope bc coming full circle could mean more returning to s1 groupings like the party + El, Jonathan and Nancy, Jopper. And then possibly it also means Will as a focus? But also Max getting out of her coma (and thus way from Vecna), Dustin and his grief, and Henry and Vecna’s backstory have also been mentioned as crucial. It could also be the army of monsters they have to fight instead of just the demogorgon in s1 could be one way it’s s1 but “grander.”

It does feel like so much converges through Will and points to him being important s5: that the UD froze the day he disappeared, that he survived the UD or was kept alive in it, that he was possessed in s2 (so targeted twice even if the first one could still have some element of wrong place wrong time or he was actually being targeted in s1), that the portals converge in the library where he was found, that he senses and knows Vecna is alive and is a clear target for Vecna.

But how this all works out logistically idk. I think your theory is great—that they somehow have to revisit some part of that day to figure out how it was frozen, or Will needs to revisit that day and what happened in the UD. Also it’s interesting that Hawkins crew only knows that crucial detail about the UD freezing when Will disappeared—I wonder how exactly Cali crew (esp Will, El, and Jonathan) and Joyce and Hopper will find out. Perhaps through Nancy, because she’s the one who really discovered it and figured it out?

It could also be of course that Will is Vecna’d at some point or is able to sense things and it happens somehow that way. Either way I feel like the two thing have to happen to restore Hawkins are: 1) they have to unfreeze the UD so what they do in the right side up can destroy it and 2) that Vecna and the MF’s point of weakness needs to be discovered and used against them to defeat them and sever their link.

I’m also curious if 1 and 2 above relate to each other. In any case, it seems like really crucial to this could be revisiting all the things we didn’t see when Will was taken and in the UD.

[that-thing-that-feeling]

What I can see happening in S5 based on what the DB said:

Hawkins is a war zone, big military cover up.

El supported by Mike and Lucas is still trying to wake up Max from her coma. Dustin is with them but less involved bc he has his own subplot about Eddie

Will reconnects with his family, tries to tell them how he has always felt different, wonders if it explains his connection with V/H/001 that has probably increased. Joyce and Nancy mode activated, Jancy and Jopper reflects on the events of S1 and try to learn more about Henry, maybe with the help of Murray and Owens. Jancy and Jopper more developed as romantic relationships along the way.

Ofc, the 2 arcs converge and lead to revelations about the UD, Max wakes up pretty lately, Vecna’s hubris is defeated. Jopper and probably Jancy endgame, others characters’ arcs more open ended. I just have no idea about Steve and Robin in S5 (with Dustin? Jancy?). Ofc, I may be completely wrong, haha

Hmmmm interesting; it’s so hard to tell bc it depends on if that time jump really is short. I could see the military getting involved right away, which would be a mess. We know they’re putting the party back together (and Dustin will have a lot of grief). We know Jopper will be paired and Jancy, altho unresolved as a couple. Still v confused about Steve and Robin. Im v confused on what the lead supernatural approach/focus becomes. All groups have the same problem, so is it just they’re approaching it from different angles? Like is El focused on Max? Or does Will become the big focus (again it would make so much sense for him to be). They all have information they need to share and know so I hope the groupings aren’t as isolated. Also will Vecna still be Vecna-ing people, or will people more like have to go into the UD and the mindscape? I also feel like Will and El will be crucial for figuring out why the UD froze when he disappeared—I wish we could get more flashbacks of his time in the UD, altho they’d have to do the de-aging/use another actor like what they did with young El. I think that army of monsters thing Vecna showed Nancy will prob appear.