#like I didn't agree w how some things were portrayed either but you can't be mad that the story about nuance was nuanced 😭

[trans-xianxian]

okay I finished all of the wha chapters that I could find!!! unfortunately I then proceeded to go into the tag. rookie mistake I know

[emblazons]

Listen I like Duffers and I don't doubt that they are successful writers, but I have to be honest here that some of the writing choices they made were poor. Like I get the 'reason' behind them, to an extent, but if those overall writing choices resulted in poor takes and when pretty much more than half of your audience doesn't get the message? I think it kinda shows that the message was not delivered well.

Like people still thinking to this day that Will was being childish for wanting to play DND and that he should just grow up...? The message clearly wasn't delivered lmao. And I get that you can say the audience ''doesn't get it'', but isn't part of the writing making the audience get that, to portray your narrative so it tracks with the show. It's not always the audience's fault. Ofc the majority of the audience is not going to think Will is an important character when he receives the least screentime/focus each season and he's painfully sidelined in the narrative, this also is connected to LGBT characters and narratives on the show because they're given minimum care at best and that's also partly why people think Byler won't become canon. These are all connected and I just wish we can criticize them more because it ultimately put a hindrance on the narrative, ultimately. Yeah, they are still fixable to an extent and the writing in S5 can make up for it, but there is also the issue that these takes would not have been there in the first place if the buildup/narrative writing was different.

I mean I can agree with you to a point, but…I feel like I won’t be able to say “you did a bad job because the audience doesn’t understand” or even “you could have done xyz better” until the story is finished, and it’s because they’ve literally told you up front that it isn’t done—and with this show, recontextualization is key.

I think the real problem isn’t that people don’t understand, or aren’t capable of understanding—it’s that they are under the impression that the seasons stand alone, and that the duffers aren’t leading to a specific point. When you look at stranger things as a series of independent seasons—seasons they made up as they went, just exploring the characters and finding a random monster, as most people believe the show is—it’s easy to misunderstand intent, believe a character has been sidelined, and that “they don’t know what they’re doing…” because it’s not interconnected.

I can't say I agree that they "should have done it better" because a lot of the audience didn't catch it either, because in truth a lot (and I do mean a LOT) of even this nebulous "GA" people talk about did—down to my 60 year old relatives, who saw clearly what was happening with mlvn v byler and didn't bat an eye at it, because it's actually not even remotely subtle...unless you insist on looking at things through a heteronormative or even homophobic lens. Not to mention (when it comes to the DnD point) lot of people don't agree that "you should take your nerdiest interests into adulthood" as a message is true in real life—which is why I'm not surprised they missed the point they're leading to in the show lmao.

Still, to your point about "the writing choices being poor," I don't agree—not yet, and especially not about why they 'sidelined' Will or the leadup to byler, given the build-up to byler is literally the same exact sort of build up they've done for "Henry/One/Vecna" being The Main Villain—something that there have been hints of across seasons, that came to a clear !!!! moment of question in S4, and will be finished in S5. People were smart enough to back-connect how the Demogorgon and MindFlayer could fit into that storyline (and even some of its foreshadowing) despite us not yet being done with the show...and no one bats an eye at it despite it being just as subtle as byler because it wasn't challenging their heteronormative or "everybody needs to grow up & out of their 'childish' interests" value system in any way.

In my opinion, Byler's writing being just as subtle as their other plots is a feature and asset, not a loss solely because people don't see it (especially given that they do—literally not one soul I've met whose seen Stranger Things isn't aware there's at least something happening in "The Byler Corner" even without a single moment spent in this fandom). The problem isn't the writing's subtlety, but rather that people don't want to acknowledge the upending of classic expectations for nerds winning over "adulting" as much as they don't want to see the clear build up of a queer relationship over the heterosexual one, which means they're going to try to interpret the events of the show through a value system entirely different than The Duffers...solely because the show is popular.

Essentially: Most of the "the audience is missing the point" comes from a value system difference, not a skill one on the part of The Duffers...which goes back to that whole "Stranger Things was made for a specific audience and expanded past that" thing I've talked about a million times over now. If you like your shows more blatant, I'm sure that would be irritating—but for someone like me, that's almost the entire appeal.

I can accept and fully agree with criticism that maybe The Duffers took a deep dive transition with S3 that was rather dramatic given the previous tone of the show. That's just a fact, and the tone change really did put people off of understanding what their primary themes were hard enough that S5 will require some really blatant and potentially heavy-handed "smack you over the head" moments to make its point. That's probably why they say they regret indulging fan service and maybe even giving "The Netflix Look" to their show, even—and why they say they're not doing that for the final season. That, to me, is a very valid criticism.

That said...I would rather have a chance to dig and think about my media here than have something that just tells me everything I need to know to get the point on first viewing, or that didn't require me revisiting it to understand the point it was trying to make. To me, that's boring, weak storytelling, even if it makes sense to "the majority" of the audience...and I'm almost positive the Duffers would view it the same way. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Thanks for the ask!

[fancyfade]

I agree with what you were saying about TT animated robin clearly being favored in terms of general badassery LMAO I noticed that as a kid too but personally I've always been ok with it because I figured that was the writers' way of showing he had like 8 years of experience at crime-fighting already with Batman who trained him to be the best TM, meanwhile the others were still relatively super inexperienced, even Beast Boy? Anyway just curious, what was your fav episode or story arc of the show?

I mean no matter what, 8 years of training with batman isn't going to give you super strenght if you didn't have super strength.

like there's a scene (early terra arc) where starfire gets piled by a bunch of slade-bots and needs to be rescued, but then later in the same episode robin gets piled by the sladebots and can knock them all off him. its like the writers forgot which character had super strength?

or in the first arc (season 1) robin just kicks the cement dude (forget his name) over despite him being a giant monster thing that the super strength characters can't KO in one hit.

And in general when they weaken starfire and make her need to be rescued it does just come off as kind of sexist so I'm NOT okay with it.

either way, the writers CHOSE to make robin the most experienced*. you can criticize a writing decision. it's not like the writers got 5 characters and were like "dang we would like to portray them equally but robin's the most experience... hands are tied... :/..." in the original 1980s comics starfire's been a warrior since she was a kid, raven has been training her entire life, gar has been a kid superhero just like robin... like the writers chose to say "okay we're gonna make robin the baddest"

like IDK I know it has a special place in lots of people's hearts and i DID enjoy some plotlines (Raven's plotline, terra's plotline, vic's plotline) but this still isn't a writing decision I think is validated.

*if that's even true? Like we know starfire had some training on tamaran because blackfire is like "I always was the better fighter" indicating they had done this before, beast boy used to work with the doom patrol, raven has been meditating or w/e her whole life. we don't know how long cyborg has been cyborg but presumably a couple years cuz he says that when his battery needs to be replaced