#like edelgard's system is good. for adrestia. and that's a decision edelgard can make. as adrestia's leader.

[pastel-odette]

My favorite thing about edelstans is when characters from Faerghus and Leicester say that what Edelgard is trying to do won't benefit their nation and edelstans say they're brainwashed.

[butwhatifidothis]

So if it is MEANT to be a villain route...Why are the villanous actions NEVER ADDRESSED by ANY of the characters outside of "Huh. I wonder if there was a better way to do this."

Why did they have Rhea go insane and torch a city? Why make potray Rhea as a villain when you could potray her as the hero whos genuinely trying to do good? Why have a majority of the characters still be able to be recruited regardless of if it makes sense? Why have the ending narration mostly be possible? WHY have Edelgard succeed and somehow turn her tyranny into a society that "ensures a free and independent society fot all."

If it's REALLY a villain route, why is there not a single character ending mentioning things like rebellions and conflict? Hell, the ending narration shows not a hint of villainy and potrays its ending as heroic.

"Embracing her newfound power, Edelgard could at last set about destroying Fódlan's entrenched system of nobility and rebuild a world free from the tyranny of Crests and status."

Again, if it was TRULY meant to be the villain route, it would have been POTRAYED as such. Instead of a villain route, we got "A route where one of the villains is made the protagonist and her views and villainous actions are never questioned OR addressed and outside of the conquest and starting the war, everyone is mostly happy."

Alright so this is going to seem like a nonserious answer, but I'm 100% serious when posting this image as part of a genuine answer to this question:

On CF, your actions are never addressed because of ignorance. On the surface, your actions seem like they've helped Fodlan, but as soon as the player looks any deeper it starts to become evident that something isn't right.

If Edelgard made a free and independent society for all, why are the people spied on in Hubert's ending with Dorothea? Why are rebellions secretly being put down in his ending with Shamir? That's not free, in a general sense or from specifically tyranny. That's a direct contradiction from two of the characters that can only be played on CF, and this is only found on CF.

Rhea is portrayed as a villain because she is Nabatean, and Edelgard hates Nabateans, and you are playing a route that emphasizes her ideals - which include wiping out all of the inhuman, bestial, vile, cruel Nabateans that have been plaguing humanity’s world. Rhea goes insane on CF because unlike all of the other routes, where the player and the lord never go out of their way to trample and spit on their enemies' trauma, that's what you are doing the entire time you play CF to Rhea - for months once Byleth returns, and that’s being extremely generous and not counting the entire war. You help drive Rhea and the other Nabateans away from their homes when taking over Garreg Mach - like Nemesis did to Rhea after the Red Canyon Massacre! You're helping someone try to kill off the rest of her people - like Nemesis did at Zanado! You're trying to kill Rhea with the Sword of the Creator, her mother's mutilated corpse - like Nemesis did! You're doing so with the descendent of Wilheim - spitting on the legacy of the one human Rhea could trust during the War of Heroes! You're literally recreating the single worst moment of Rhea's life, all so that you can help the one who views her as less than human.

Portraying Rhea as "the hero who's genuinely trying to do good" goes against Edelgard's viewpoint of all Nabateans being evil, and you're never meant to question Edelgard or make her change her beliefs. You as the player are actively discouraged from talking back to Edelgard, as she will noticeably get upset whenever you do - many times you will even lose support points with her, and this is especially bad for specifically Edelgard because you have to get to a certain support level with her to enter her route, with you having less chapters to do so because she won't talk to you until after Byleth achieves the Sword of the Creator in Chapter 4.

Look at how Rhea, Dimitri, and Claude are portrayed on CF. Rhea and Dimitri are demonized, while Claude is given some leeway from Edelgard. Now notice who of the three of them always speak their minds over Edelgard's villainy to her face, and which of the three of them bends to Edelgard's view of them as the bad guy. Dimitri and Rhea never allow themselves to bend to Edelgard - they call her out and call her actions evil. Claude, on the other hand, will remove himself from Fodlan and then afterwards make himself out to be a bad guy whom Edelgard managed to take down. He puffs up her ego, and he gets to live, while the two that don't must die. Edelgard is the one always out for the kill, and only by submitting to her is anyone allowed to live - which, I don’t think needs to be said, isn’t very heroic of her.

I've had my fair share of complaints over the characters that can be recruited over to CF, but even with those complaints... look at how those characters behave on CF. None of them are Felix levels of negative character development, but they all act noticeably worse on CF vs how they are on the other routes. To name some notable examples: Ignatz goes from wanting to paint Garreg Mach as it stood five years before to preserve its beauty to wanting to paint the violent downfall of the Alliance, Lysithea wants to abandon House Ordelia, which is in direct contrast to her core character motivation, Ingrid is willing to throw away her lifelong dream of being a knight of Faerghus, which she herself says is her spitting on her dead betrothed’s dreams, Leonie works with Jeralt’s killers, etc. etc.. And mind, CF is the route that locks out the most units - there's the obvious ones like Dedue and Gilbert who were already route exclusive, but then there's Seteth and Flayn, Catherine, Cyril, and Hilda. CF is the only route to have even non-exclusive units be completely unavailable no matter what.

Edelgard doesn't make a society that is "free," like I said above - having a secret police monitor the people's actions, or is ready to put down anyone who tries to rise up against her, is literally the opposite of free. Edelgard can and will ban plays she doesn't like - not free. Edelgard only allows state-sanctioned religion, if she does allow it - not free.

CF is a route that wants to make the player believe the lie that you're not the villain, because you are playing from the perspective of someone who herself doesn't think she's the villain, but like. Look at what you're doing. You're invading two countries for the express, explicit purpose of taking them over and making them your own. You're working with someone who's been trying to reunite Fodlan back under Adrestia as early as the prologue when she tried to have Dimitri and Claude assassinated. You're helping TWS. Your Imperial presence makes Church people flee - which, given that Edelgard wants Rhea and those involved with the Church dead, I don't blame them. You're working with someone who is starving her people so that she can carry on with her war.

CF lies to the player - Edelgard lies, constantly. She says she's willing to let Rhea live, but literally the scene before she says she seeks to fuckin' Exodia Rhea. She lies about Arianrhod. She lies - or is flat-out wrong, which isn't much better - about the Church hoarding wealth and about the Church splitting up the Empire. She lies about not knowing about TWS pre-ts. She helps spread the lie of Duscur being the ones who killed Lambert. She lied about not knowing where Flayn was when she was kidnapped. She lies to her people by making them believe she’s making the orders during the war, not Byleth. There's a student who doubts all of what Edelgard says right before the timeskip happens and who isn't sure about his decision to stay, and then there’s a man who calls Edelgard “a tricksy one” on the last explore section for lying about attacking the Kingdom capitol. She’s wrong about the history of Nemesis and Seiros, calling Nemesis killing all of Rhea’s family a “simple dispute.” She lies to her people about an entire war against a group who just a little bit ago were her allies. Lies and ignorance are staple points to CF as a route, it’s baked into it, so the idea of the CF going “oh no you totally are the good guys” literally as the city burns down around the players doesn’t come from nowhere.

And like... the ending narration “shows not a hint of villainy?” Um.

Her stepping on the flags of the Alliance and Church? Her recreating a painting of Napoleon - that little known imperialist - down to the hand of justice? Her denouncing gods constantly and then being ushered in by a statue with heavy resemblance to Nike, Goddess of victory? Hubert plotting away from the sight of the rejoicing people? Yeah, there’s a lot of hints to villainy.

Again, CF isn’t “portrayed” as a villain route because it’s you falling for the lies of Edelgard. You have a wool over your eyes. You accept everything Edelgard says as fact, even when she actively contradicts herself - sometimes as radically as in back-to-back scenes. You view yourself as a savior to humanity, even when you plunge it into darkness. You don’t think you’re the villain, so your actions aren’t going to be put in an explicitly villainous light - at least, not by anyone on your side.

This post showcases the difference between non-recruited characters fighting non-CF!Byleth vs CF!Byleth. Characters are mostly saddened by having to fight Byleth in the former, while they are mostly betrayed on CF. Byleth is very clearly seen as being wrong for having sided with Edelgard on CF by the non-recruited characters - Edelgard’s actions may not be directly criticized (save for by Dimitri and a few others), but it makes no sense for these characters to be this shocked and betrayed by Byleth siding with her if her actions were so good. Leonie deadass calls you a traitor to Jeralt, Ingrid says that you are not fit to rule Fodlan specifically for siding with Edelgard and the Empire after all she and they have done, and Dimitri questions you as to why you chose Edelgard and her “savage, bloody path,” just to name a few notable examples. You, as the player, are being criticized for siding with Edelgard. You say that the villainous actions are “NEVER ADDRESSED by ANY of the characters,” but what else are these reactions but characters addressing your villainous actions?

And like... “a route where one of the villains is the protagonist” bro that’s a villain route. Like. I’m not trying to be mean, but I am genuinely confused as to what you were trying to get at here.

Like. In a vacuum? I might can get the idea of CF not being a villain route a little better, were it the only route available (though even that is a very big stretch). But you have three whole other routes where there’s no conquest, there’s no working with TWS, there’s no using Demonic Beasts, there’s no killing/exiling the remaining (immediately known) Nabateans, there’s no continuous and long-standing lies that never get outed, the lords never stay flat out wrong about the events of the game, non-recruited characters aren’t shooting Byleth up the ass with accusations of being a traitorous lemming who’d follow Edelgard off a cliff... and they achieve peace. Those endings, with Dimitri Claude and “Rhea” (SS ain’t really her route even though it should’ve been but ye), lack the following in any of their endings:

Censorship

Spying on the people

Constantly putting down rebels in secret

State-sanctioned religion

(mind, this last one is in direct contradiction to CF’s ending narration that says that Church is destroyed)

None of this happens on AM, VW, and SS. They all have peaceful endings. They all have Fodlan see the light of dawn, and that is never contradicted in their endings. CF is the only route to have all of these things happen in it - I think that’s enough for it to be considered a villain route lol

[fuwametal-writes]

Edelgard Working Together with TWSITD Makes Zero Sense

I wouldn't qualify people suffering because of their Crests under the Crest system of nobility as the same thing as suffering under the rule of the Church of Seiros. This is the very reason why I honestly believe that none of Edelgard's actions in terms of conspiring together with TWSITD make sense.

She suffered under the Crest system of nobility and was experimented upon by Those Who Slither in the Dark because the Crest system of nobility allowed cracks and gaps to manifest within Fodlan society where TWSITD were able to thrive, but she never came into contact with the Central Church which Rhea leads until she entered into the Officer's Academy.

For a majority of her life, Rhea and the Church of Seiros were non-entities that were not responsible for any of the tragedies that befell her, and while, through logical thought, one might be able to identify the Church's maintenance of its doctrines as the force responsible for keeping the Crest system alive as the status quo, which in turn created the cracks in society where TWSITD were able to thrive and gain influence from, that still does not mean that they were the parties directly responsible for the suffering that Edelgard has experienced. It thus seems strange for the Adrestian Princess to pin the Church as the party ultimately responsible for her suffering and come to the conclusion that she must first defeat the Church working together with TWSITD, or in other words, her oppressors before dispatching of her oppressors... somehow... later on.

Even if the actions of the Church were responsible for creating the butterfly effect that would eventually lead to her torture, her siblings' deaths, and the downfall of her father's dynasty, it's just strange that even when those who are directly responsible for these atrocities are staring her straight in the face, she still seems to believe that all of these are the ultimate responsibility of the Church, and not as the further result of an even longer-standing conflict caused by none other than those who seem to have no trouble hiding their millennia-old vendetta against the Church.

It is so incongruous for Edelgard to not see how it would be much easier and much more sensible to purge those who slither from the cracks of Fodlan society with the help of the Church and then fill in those cracks with reform so that they can no longer resurface when we know how meticulous and brilliant she is, and especially when we know that she is a mere few steps away from unlocking the truth that Thales and his dead-eyed cronies are pulling a fast one on her. We'll discuss more of that later.

We see over and over again over the course of the story without it ever being shown to us or told explicitly that TWSITD were pulling the strings behind all of the conspiratorial happenings in Fodlan through the underbelly of corruption that has festered over the course of centuries of the Crest system of nobility being in place. This system was created through the influence of the Church in order to establish order following the War of Heroes, but by and large, a lot of the suffering caused by the Crest system is not caused or meted out by the Church, but by those who hold positions of power within the system - people like the nobles of the Insurrection of the Seven who were seduced by the wiles of TWSITD who promised them greater power within the system through their strange means. When we consider this angle, we see that really, Edelgard's anger at the Crest system of nobility is justified, but that her anger at the Church is (and this is important) not wrong, but misguided. I'll explain why.

Rhea formally instituted the Crest system as a way to fill the power vacuum in Fodlan and prevent the continent from falling into chaos again following her victory against Nemesis and the Ten Elites, but remember that the system of ruling over the masses with the power of Crests was not created by Rhea, but by the Agarthans who used Nemesis as a tool to enact genocide upon the Nabateans.

Remember that it was the Agarthans who guided Nemesis and his band of bandits to pillage Sothis's body for the purpose of obtaining the Crest of Flames and the Sword of the Creator, which they then used to wipe out the Nabateans, drink their blood and take their bones, from which they obtained more Crests and Relics with which they could rule tyrannically over the people of Fodlan. With the end of the War of Heroes, Seiros had the opportunity to reveal the truth and abolish the Crest system of power that existed within Fodlan entirely, but she was not in a state of mind to do so, grief-stricken by the death of her mother and the genocide of her kin.

In a cruel, twisted kind of way, the blood running through the veins of her kin's killers and the weapons they fashioned out of the bones of the people that she loved were the only reminders of her family that existed. Therefore, I believe that her decision to instate the Crest system of nobility as the official system of governance in Adrestia through her influence as the head of the Church was motivated by her desire to preserve the vestiges of her kin's memory. To ensure that they don't simply fade into obscurity, and to be able to keep them close to her in a way - even if it is twisted.

I don't know what kind of manipulation Edelgard had to have gone through for her to come to the conclusion that the most effective way to topple TWSITD and their influence over Fodlan was to first eliminate the Church rather than work with them to topple TWSITD and then work with them to enact systemic changes to the way that Church and State interact within the continent to ensure that no one suffers under the dated Crest system (and also possibly go through dialogue to slowly bring to light Fodlan's true history - because obviously, none of that surfaces in the ending of Crimson Flower either).

Edelgard had part of the real history, but clearly, TWSITD cherry-picked the most convenient parts of that history to show Edelgard while obscuring the most inconvenient parts to her such that she would cultivate a vendetta against the Church as the perpetrator behind all suffering in Fodlan when TWSITD are the ones who are truly causing suffering by manipulating local nobles and satellite Church leaders to cause unrest and instability.

Does that justify Rhea's swift execution of heretics? No, of course not, but if Edelgard weren't already so set on her ways in the beginning of the game, she might have been able to gauge by Rhea's reaction to the appearance of the strange mages that she conspired with as the Flame Emperor in the Monastery that the Church was diametrically opposed to the very people that she was conspiring with in the first place for reasons incongruous with what Thales has led her to believe, and that maybe, her anger was misguided... and that she was taking a very, very roundabout way to achieving her goals that would not bear her the full truth of the matter... and maybe even that the Church would gladly help in the purge of TWSITD.

Not that that matters because she wrongly believes that she already has all the answers in her hands, which we know is untrue when we learn the whole truth from Rhea's own mouth in Verdant Wind. TWSITD played Edelgard like a fiddle. They had two main goals, 1) to destroy the Church to exact revenge on Seiros, and 2) to rule the world, and they were able to exploit Edelgard's anger and her ideals as a means to the first one.

This all makes even less sense when you consider that in order for all of this to have come to pass, Edelgard would have had to trust the words of her abusers fully and take their word for what the true history of Fodlan really is... What reason would she have to believe everything that TWSITD had to say about Fodlan's history is true when 1) they were the ones who experimented on her and implanted the Fire Emblem into her, 2) are not working with her in good faith, and 3) it is clear that they are also in the business of hiding even more information from her?

In fact, what reason would she even have to believe everything she said in her speech, particularly these two lines: "The leaders of the church have misused its creed to fulfill their true desire - to rule the world," and "They gathered gold and lived in extravagance," when it would have been plain to her from her months in the Monastery that 1) the Church is largely uninterested in interfering with Empire, Kingdom or Alliance politics except when heresy against the Church is directly involved or in preserving peace from petty bandits where nobles request their aid, 2) she would have seen how far removed from extravagance lifestyle at the Monastery was, and most importantly, 3) she came into contact and interacted with so many students and just... people in general who would have challenged and even shaken those beliefs?

Let's not even stray from point 1 in the previous question that I posed. As I've already said before, her suffering was never directly at the hands of the Central Church because as we see in the game, the Central Church has little influence over the Empire where the Western Church has more influence and because the Empire, unlike the Kingdom and the Alliance, has its very own Ministry of Religion. Even the game's narrative betrays any reason that Edelgard might have had to bear a grudge against the Church in particular and work with the very clearly evil group of shadowy figures because the game goes out of its way to remind us over and over again that the Church has had very little influence over the Empire's religious affairs in recent years - which has led to the rise of heresy within the Western Church, which, since Edelgard was working as the Flame Emperor, she should have known was also the handiwork of TWSITD.

She should have known from spending time in the Monastery that Rhea was less concerned about the loss of influence in the Empire preventing her from levying Church taxes on the Empire and more concerned about the actual heresy against their doctrines that they were committing. More damningly, she should have known that this concern of Rhea to protect the doctrine of the Church was not about maintaining the status quo of the Crest system because what the Western Church was preaching did not undermine the doctrine that Crests and Relics were Sothis's blessings and thus did not jeopardize the Crest system that revered Sothis as Goddess, but rather about maintaining her legitimacy as Archbishop of the Church such that Fodlan could have a unified faith among other reasons that she may have but is not forthright about, as she may have learned if she had taken the time to earn Rhea's trust and learn layers deeper into the truth.

As players, we do know that beyond maintaining her legitimacy as Archbishop, Rhea wanted the people to have a common faith in Sothis because she is still grieving the death of her mother, and that over the centuries, she has almost somehow deluded herself into believing the faith of her own making.

So then, was she fighting for religious freedom? No, because she didn't give a damn about the Western Church either, and because what the Western Church was teaching wasn't reflective of the true history that she apparently wants to bring to light... but never does in the end.

And now, the final nail in the coffin.

The people that Edelgard came into contact with in the Monastery. Let us talk about Marianne and Lysithea, yes?

Marianne bears the Crest of the Beast, and because of that, is visibly disturbed by any discussion of Crests. She has suffered much because of the Crest system and the prying eyes that look on at her and cast suspicion on her. While Edelgard and Marianne do not have supports, surely, she would have seen how Marianne would have reacted to the mere mention of a Crest, and yet all the same, she would have seen how she chooses to believe in the Goddess anyway, and how she did not begrudge the Church, even when it would be very easy to do so as the Church is, after all, responsible for teaching the doctrines that uphold the Crest system. Would this not have cast doubts on the beliefs that she held about the supposed injustice of the Church?

But I concede that Edelgard may not have been paying much attention to Marianne. They barely know each other, after all. It's a shame we don't have someone who experienced basically the exact same thing as her yet didn't begrudge the Church as the reason for her suff-

Wait a minute.

Lysithea von Ordelia. Here is a student that she knows was also experimented upon in the same manner as she was, and yet, she does not begrudge the Church in the same way that she does. Their support conversations are quite heavy, Edelgard trying to reach out to Lysithea as kindred spirits who know exactly how the other feels, and we learn that Lysithea does believe the Crest system and the obsession with the power of the Crests to have been responsible for her and her parents' suffering, but she doesn't speak a lick about the Church. Not to Edelgard, not to Claude, not to Byleth. Why? Because Lysithea has elected that the Church itself was not responsible for her suffering. Plain and simple. It would have been just as easy for Lysithea to also believe that because the Church was the entity responsible for putting the Crest system into place, that they are also ultimately the ones responsible for her suffering just as Edelgard believes... but she doesn't. Would this not have at least made Edelgard question her beliefs even just a bit? Seriously.

And to speak of commonfolk around the Monastery, what does she make of the orphans that the Church takes in? And all of the devotees that the Church extends its mercy and aid to? What did she make of the fact that following Remire, the Monastery took in its orphans and its survivors? Seriously.

What of the Almyran boy that Rhea treats equitably just like any Fodlani person that she holds audience for? What of Cyril? Does she see Rhea's kindness to the boy and how this boy is grateful for saving her from a life of indentured servitude and think that it is insincere?

Would any of these encounters with the people in the Monastery not have allowed her even a little leeway to question her alliance with TWSITD?

Don't you think that it would make more sense for Edelgard to also be mistrustful of TWSITD enough to want to learn more about the Church and the history that underlies them to verify the veracity of her cause before deciding who to confide her motivations in fully, acting as a double agent with the side that wins her over with the truth to win peace and carve out her destiny in her own terms, free from the shackles of those who would keep her in line for their own ends?

It just seems so asinine to me to see Edelgard playing right into TWSITD's hands and it frustrates me to no end seeing how IntSys made such a chump of Edelgard when she's such a good character. I will never let IntSys live this down. Edelgard working with TWSITD makes zero sense. Try as you might to change my mind as to why Edelgard siding with TWSITD and declaring war on the Church was necessary, but know that if you do, I have barely even scratched the surface and I will have an answer ready for you. It's sloppy writing on IntSys's part and Edelgard deserves better.

[arkus-rhapsode]

My Thoughts on Edelgard and FE3H’s portrayal of perception vs previous installments

So this is a post I wanted to write after seeing FE3H to the end in all forms (and fair warning it may be a bit rambley). In short, FE3H is one of, if not, the best FE game in my opinion. And something that it delivered in spades was three-dimensional characters. No one is perfect and all have another side to them that greatly adds depth beyond that of previous games.

Now, that said, there has been some discourse regarding the character of Edelgard. I’m writing this under the assumption that those have actually played the game, but  for all those who haven’t played this game SPOILERS.

I’ve wanted to talk about Edelgard for awhile after watching her in each route. And the more I saw of the bigger picture, the more nuanced and poetic her character seemed. However it also tied in with something that I also found needed to be discussed and that is how FE’s perspective of reforming social systems around religion have changed

If you want me to be up front with my personal feelings of Edelgard, she is fantastic. She is one of the most complex characters the series has turned out and truly can make a case for her goals, antagonistic as they may seem. We understand the why to Edelgard more than any other antagonistic force in the series. That she is a person who made decision that brought her to this point. Unlike say, Hardin who had the Dark Orb that just amplified his negative emotions or Validar who believes in predestination, we see the logic behind every step she’s taken. In fact I found myself seeing her as similar to Alexander the Great to an extent.

Now, that said, I do not agree to answer to peace. I firmly reject the concept of unification through conquest. To me that is not true peace, and violated other beliefs and lifestyles to enforce your reform. In all honesty, I embrace Claude’s answer of free thought. The people of Fodlan should have the true history and then make their decision based on that. But, I see where Edelgard comes from in thinking that is the right steps to take.

She wants to drastically reform society and free it from all the horrible things crests have done and what the Church of Seiros has done to further that. And when that ideology encompasses all of Fodlan, war was her answer to solving it.

I found it interesting that this is the direction the story of Three Houses decided to take. As before this was FE Echoes, where the journey of Alm and Celica ultimately involves them liberating the world from the influences of gods. Unfying their land in a shared idea of humans realizing their best.

However, that story is much more easier than FE3H. In Echoes, Duma and Mila took active roles in influencing humanity. Duma’s teaching’s resulted in humans in humans losing a sense of empathy while Mila’s influence led to them inhibiting themselves and the privileged to grow greedier.

So when and Alm and Celica are smashing down those ideologies, it feels less like a battle of belief and the rejection of some greater force’s influence. But Sothis doesn’t take and active role. Seiros/Rhea is not a god (though she does possess immense power) rather they instead create a church around her beliefs that were meant to quell human impulses like that of the Agarthan.

And while the church is guilty of distorting history it is not fully absolute. Things like mercenaries are capable of existing with Jeralt only being reinstated due to previous connections. As well as people like Archenon, who clearly are using their wealth for petty reasons. It is only those who challenge the beliefs of Seiros are seen a swift end. Gerrag Mach highlights this as it has brought together many people from all across Fodlan. Even in an era where the church encompasses the entire continent, people are still capable of, well being people and not spouting theocratic rhetoric that’s been beaten into them. Unlike Rigel, a nation that thanks to Duma seems to lack the basic emotion of empathy. The church is not clean though, as it’s most damning things done by the church is elevating crests as seen as goddess blessings to the point people will do awful things for them or are obsessed with having them for themselves and the alteration of history.

The game of FE3H brings up a lot things like perception. Going back to my comparison of Alm, Echoes from his perspective makes it seem like this growing influence and reform is a good thing. The hero is bringing liberation to Valentia. But now compare that to Alm’s descendant Walhart and how his reform of Valm is portrayed.

We see this from the perspective of those being conquered like Say’ri. and those of Ylisse who are trying to avoid invasion. Walhart is seen as a dangerous force, even though in his great grandfather’s time, it was considered heroic. That is because in Awakening, gods like Naga are more distinctly benevolent. And someone who seeks to rid Ylisse of them, would clearly enter villainous as we know all the good godly influence like Naga and the Exalt has brought.

Why did that change? And what does it have to do with Edelgard? Well perspective matters when dealing with Edelgard. When you side with her, you are helping her make a new world. In a sense it feels like what you did with Alm, that this peace is for the greater good even if we must kill to achieve it.

But if you side against her, (and also somewhat depending on the route) she is seen as a conquering force that is forcibly trying to unify the continent. And unlike Echoes or Awakening, there is no higher power in this one that you can point and say is calling the shots.

This war is one of ideology and the winner gets to claim what is right. It’s not a battle of gods, but people. Those who slither in dark definitely have incited certain events, but at the end each route, Edelgard does not regress and say “I was being manipulated!” No she owns it. Everything she did was because she believed it was right and we understood it. Even if some of her own perception such as who’s more to blame for the experiments she suffered, the Church for altering history and glorifying something awful like crests or those who slither in the dark who’s ancestor’s are responsible for them in the first place.

No matter what route, Edelgard as a narrative force is flawed. Not flawed as poor writing like Garon, but as a person she has flaws. Its easy to see her point while rejecting it.

Its easy to see what crests do with people like Miklan, rejected because he lacks a crest, to Ingrid’s suitor who sees a crest as more important than the person its bound to. Its easy to see this and say there needs to be a factory reset. But then you see people like Sylvain and Lysithea (assuming Byleth didn’t recruit them), who has suffered because of crests and their intents on fixing the injustices are smaller and not nearly turbulent as causing a war.

Its also easy to hear the true history and see how maybe if Edelgard abolishes the crest system would lead to a better tomorrow, but that denial of what Seiros taught could give rise to another Agartha. But one could say that human progress is natural and that we must be able to progress for both the good and bad that comes with it.

So maybe Edelgard’s peace is only temporary and it lasts a few ages before New Adrestia divides into more smaller countries, but so what? That’s the cycle of progress. Oceans rise and empires fall.

But then you turn around and say “but she still wants Byleth by her side, which is basically the reincarnated goddess, to guide her. Isn’t that basically having holier than thou influence except you don’t call it god, you call it professor?” And to that I say look at her best possible ending.

Factoring in the best possible ending for Edelgard and where she wins and then waits for abolishment to happen and for tensions to cool, she also chooses to leave the throne while appointing someone who will carry on her idea of peace for the next age. She is not bent on being a monarch. She doesn’t want to be like Walhart who conquered with the intend of ruling. It shows that even if she wins, she is more deep than just conquest.

As said previously, I reject Edelgard’s answer to reform. Seiros is not perfect, but the cost of Edelgrd’s reform is not worth it. But I understand her. I understand her more than just being an evil ruler who conquers for the sake of godhood or dragons or some shit. Edelgard’s story is human, tragic, and a matter of perspective.

Well hope you enjoyed this long winded rambling fest.

[ncfan-1]

Man, I really felt that when you called Rhea a karma Houdini. Like, while Edelgard’s my fave, it absolutely makes sense for her to die in 3 out of the 4 routes. But what exactly is Rhea doing if she’s not archbishop and trying to control humanity and history? Sure she wants to reform stuff but after everything it’s just that easy for her to hang around Byleth forever since she’s immortal and Byleth will likely have a longer than average lifespan?

I’mnot entirely sure as to the exact track of this question, but yeah, I feel youabout Rhea escaping the consequences of her actions (consequences that fit the scaleof her actions, at least) on 3 out of 4 routes--Karma Houdini is an excellentterm for it. She’s killed on Crimson Flower, and apparently she dies inVerdant Wind (going off of the wiki, here; haven’t played that route yet). Buton Silver Snow (provided you build up her supports enough; I’ve seenconflicting evidence as to whether an A- or S-support is enough to save her;something about Catherine’s unpaired ending talking about her continuing to actas Rhea’s bodyguard?) and Azure Moon, yeah, consequences are not reallyhappening.

Andto be clear, I don’t consider dying either her experiencing the consequences orescaping them. Dying and experiencing consequences for your wrongdoings are twodifferent things. While they don’t have to be mutually exclusive,they’re often two parallel lines, and in such circumstances, will never meet.

ButI think the nature of her wrongdoings ties directly into why it’s so difficultto hold her accountable for them.

Rheacreated a church with herself as one of the central figures of veneration—which,on top of being hilariously egotistical,is a clear signal of just what she wants from the people of Fódlan. Rhea spenta millennium censoring and revising Fódlan’s history, spent a millenniumamassing power to herself to the point that she has a standing army, thelegitimacy of an Adrestian emperor’s coronation--and, by extension, rule--canbe called into question if she isn’t present (and it seems to be the same inFaerghus as well, as it was Melusine--the brand-new Archbishop--who oversawDimitri’s coronation), all while somehow managing to keep people from askingtoo many questions about her seeming agelessness*, and basically settingherself up as the shadow ruler of Fódlan. Sure, Fódlan is politically ruledby the King (or reigning Queen) of Faerghus, the Emperor of Adrestia, and theDuke (or Duchess) of Leicester, but their rule can have no legitimacy withoutRhea’s approval. She holds the strings of power in her hands.

Rheahas spent a millennium punishing the people of Fódlan for their “sins.” It wasnever going to be enough for her, there was never any point where she was goingto be able to pull back, look at everything and think to herself “they haveatoned enough.” These people were always going to be the dirty thieves whomurdered her people and stole their bones. In her eyes, they were always goingto be the dirty thieves who took her mother from her. Never mind that all ofthis had centuries ago passed out of living memory for the people beingpunished. They must atone. They must always atone. (I honestly thinkthat was actually a nice touch to her characterization as an immortal; wheneverything is in living memory for you, it can be really hard to let goof a grudge, even when the people you’re holding a grudge against had nothingto do with the incident in question and are many, many generationsremoved from the people who were.)

Andthe ironic thing about that? Is that in the process of putting Fódlan throughthis millennium-long regiment of constant atonement, Rhea robbed them of thetools to really grapple and genuinely come to terms with what she waspunishing them for. The true, bloody history of the Heroes’ Relics and theCrests? She lied to them about all of it, and she conducted the necessarycensorship and historical revisionism to help ensure that her lies would neverbe exposed as such. The people of Fódlan can never truly put their historybehind them if they don’t know what that history is. They can never makedecisions going forward about how they truly want to regard Heroes’ Relics**and Crests if they don’t know what these things truly are. They don’t know thatthese things are truly the spoils of genocide, rather than gifts from thegoddess. They can never decide how they, as a society, want to treat the spoilsof genocide. And whose fault is that?

Rheahas created a system where the people she is punishing can never truly atonefor the things she’s punishing them for, because they don’t know what they’re supposed to be atoning for. The system isthis way by design, and was likely designed this way because Rhea cannot bringherself to forgive them. It’s sort of like when a parent punishes their youngchild for doing something wrong, but doesn’t tell the kid what they did wrong, refuses totell the kid what they did wrong. After the parent does this enough times, there’sa very real chance that the message the kid is going to internalize is thatthey’re just inherently bad, and thatthey must always please and placate their parent if they ever want to be good.In this case, Rhea is punishing Fódlan by making sure they always worship themother they “stole” from her, that they always revere her in her true identityas Seiros, that they always revere her other surviving kin (the saints) thathumanity also tried to “steal” from her, and that they never, ever know why things are the way thatthey are.

Rheahas proven herself perfectly capable of caring deeply about individual humans.Catherine, Cyril, Shamir, and Jeralt all spring to mind. And in the case ofCyril and Shamir, she’s proven capable of making compromises with individualhumans regarding faith. These things neither change, nor excuse, the way Rhearegards humanity as a whole. Her willingness to let Shamir serve her withoutShamir being a believer in the Church of Seiros, her willingness to let Cyrilcome to a decision on his own as to whether he wants to become a believer inthe Church of Seiros, does not erase the purging of the Western Church, not allof whom could possibly have been involved in the violent incidents we see inthe game. It just serves as a reminder that everyone is capable of caring forother people, even if they are, on a larger level, deeply misanthropic. Just becauseCrimson Flower!Rhea is Rhea pushed to an extreme, does not mean there isnothing valuable we can take away from it as regards to her views of humanity.

Andthe experiments she conducted on Melusine’s mother and her predecessors? Yeah,part of me is like “I could write a whole post about just that”, and the otherpart of me knows that I haven’t finished Silver Snow yet, and I need to wait. I’llchew on this one later. I’ll be chewing on it quite a lot.

Allof this, just because she can’t cope with life without her mother. It’s anextraordinarily petty reason tosubjugate an entire continent for a millennium, an extraordinarily petty reasonto put a stranglehold on the natural progression of three differentcivilizations. I think this is why, even in the Blue Lions route, where thenarrative wastes no opportunity trying to make Edelgard as unsympathetic aspossible, I still prefer Edelgard to Rhea, because at least Edelgard can seebeyond herself. At least the things Edelgard does aren’t just for her personalbenefit. But this post isn’t about Edelgard. It’s about Rhea, and why it wouldbe so difficult to hold Rhea accountable for everything she’s done.

Theanswer to that lies in how very successfulshe’s been in the past. It takes extraordinary circumstances for any of thetruth of Fódlan’s history to come to light; that’s how good she’s been at hercensorship and revision of Fódlan’s actual history (And none of it comes to light in Azure Moon). If, say, in Azure Moon,the truth came to light, it would have a deeply destabilizing effect on societyas a whole—while I do regard Edelgard’s path to a better Fódlan as the paththat has the best chance of actually fixing the problems permanently, I’m notgonna lie and say I think Fódlan post-game in Crimson Flower was not rocked by upheaval for a long time. So you have to be very, very careful about exposing her lies, ifyou think exposing them is even worth the fallout of doing so.

AndRhea has also been very successful in convincing everyone around her that sheis truly benevolent. Even after being sent out to purge the Western Church withthe other knights, Catherine still loves and adores Rhea and thinks she can dono wrong; it takes Crimson Flower!Rhea ordering Catherine to burn down Fhirdiadto even begin to shake Catherine’sbelief in Rhea’s benevolence. While we will likely never know for certain, it’sentirely possible that Jeralt was called upon to do similar things in his timeas Captain of the Knights of Seiros, and it took Rhea interfering with hisinfant daughter to jar him enough to break with her. So in a route like AzureMoon, how do you even begin to convince people that Rhea isn’t as benevolent asshe seems? She is, after all, so very good at appearing as this benevolentmother figure.

Longstory short, it’s difficult to expose Rhea’s wrongdoings or hold heraccountable for them in a route like Azure Moon, because she is so very good atwhat she does. She’s had a millennium to perfect it, and the protagonists ofthat route just won a war against theperson who was trying to denounce Rhea as a tyrant and throw off the bell jarRhea slapped down on Fódlan as a whole.***

So,what’re you gonna do? Rhea had all the power in the world, and she abused itwith zeal. And the thing about thatis, when people in positions of high power abuse their power over others, itcan be hard, even impossible, to truly hold them accountable in ways thatactually fit their wrongdoings, because the deck is so heavily stacked in theirfavor. That’s what’s going on here. What court could you convict Rhea in? Whatcourt could you even bring her to? What would you charge her with? And what do you do when the people all rise up inher defense?

Ona personal level, Rhea would likely suffer personalconsequences. The way my Azure Moon playthrough went, Catherine and Shamirwent off on a lifetime journey full of adventure and misadventure, Cyril flewoff into the sunset with Lysithea, Alois became the new captain of the Knightsof Seiros serving under Melusine, Gilbert left the Knights of Seiros andreconciled with his family, and Melusine got married to Dimitri. And sinceMelusine got to A-support with Seteth, there was probably an extremely unpleasant conversationbetween the two of them and Rhea postgame.

Myheadcanon from there is that Rhea basically wound up completely alone. She cameto see Melusine as her own person, independent of her potential as Sothis’svessel, just in time for Melusine to learn everythingthat Rhea had done to her and the others like her, and recoil from her infear and disgust, and want nothing to do with her. Melusine was basically Rhea’sgrandchild, and any children she might have Rhea’s great-grandchildren, but ontop of Melusine’s reaction, Dimitri’s learned just enough to put two and twotogether about what Rhea thought was going to happen when Melusine sat onSothis’s throne in the Holy Tomb, and has decided, not without reason, that hedoesn’t want Rhea coming anywhere near Melusine, or any of their prospectivechildren.

Seteth,as implied by people taking note of his and Rhea’s deteriorating relationshipafter Melusine’s transformation in the Academy Phase, is appalled by all ofthis. He’s been complicit in Rhea’s censorship and historical revisionism (wehear early on about how he disposes of reading material in the library that heconsiders ‘inappropriate’), but to me, it’s unclear to what extent this iswilling and enthusiastic, and to what extent it’s simply that Seteth spent solong in seclusion that by the time he came outof seclusion, Rhea was able to simply present all of this to him as a faitaccompli and he had no choice but to go along with it. As indicated in supportchains with people like Ingrid and Felix, Seteth is not overly enamored ofsociety as it is. This is the thing that finally leads him to break with Rheafor good. He would never support anyone else’s attempt to hurt her, and wouldstill protect her if it came down to it, but he’s pretty much done with her asa person.

Flaynis an interesting case. In her B-support with Melusine, she makes reference toknowing about some sketchy stuff Rhea’s done in the past, but it’s unclear justwhat she’s referring to. She could be hearkening back to the days when theystill went by Seiros and Cethleann, she could be referring to the censorshipand revisionist history, but she is almost certainly not referring to the experiments Rhea conducted on the people whowere either her biological children, or people she literally created. There’sno way she knew anything about it. The truth reaches Flayn’s ears eventually,and her reaction is basically that “*nervous laughter* what the fuck” gif that’ssuch a mainstay on Tumblr. She doesn’t react quite as Seteth does, because shedoesn’t fully grasp all of the implications of it the way he does, but shenever looks at Rhea the same way again, and starts to withdraw from heremotionally.

So.In my postgame-Azure Moon headcanon, Rhea lost all of her trusted and cared-forhuman retainers. She lost any chance of a relationship with Melusine or herprospective children. She lost the esteem of her remaining kin, and wound upmore or less completely alone in the world. And those are consequences, andpretty weighty ones, but they aren’t consequences that fit the scale ofeverything she did. They just sort of exist.

--

*Isay this because Rhea really doesn’t seem like the sort of person who’d feelcomfortable letting other people rule as archbishop in her place (unless it’sthe person she regards primarily as her mother’s vessel), even if only as atemporary measure to draw attention away from her immortality. If anyone everdoes a ‘Fódlan Gothic’ post, there had better be a bullet point on there that reads“No one knows how old Rhea is. No one ever asks how old Rhea is.”

**And in this case, Rhea is the reason people have been running around making useof the spoils of genocide, because she’sthe one who let the Elites keep the Relics. Am I the only one who cannotfathom a reason as to why she would let the Elites keep the Relics after theyswore fealty to her? Those things are her people’sbones; why on God’s green earth would she just let them keep them? If hervictory over Nemesis was resounding enough and her army’s losses minimal enoughthat she could make the Elites fall in line without problems, she could easilyhave made the confiscation of the Relics a term of their surrender. “I will letyou live in exchange for your swearing your fealty to me and GIVING ME BACK MYFAMILY’S BONES, YOU ASSHOLES.” That’s perfectly equitable. That’s perfectly fair. And in keeping with Rhea’s love ofrevisionist history, she wouldn’t have to out herself as a Nabatean or revealthe truth of what the Relics were in the official record of how this exchangewent down. Just say something like “And after the battle was won, the divineSeiros decreed that the Elites return the weapons she had bestowed upon them,for they were too dangerous to be used except in times of great crisis.” Andhonestly, saying that the Relics are too dangerous except in times of greatcrisis isn’t exactly a lie, is it?This one just makes my head hurt; no matter how sympathetically orunsympathetically I regard Rhea at different times of the day, I cannot wrap myhead around it. Here’s hoping finishing Silver Snow and Verdant Wind finallygives me some answers.

***Which she honestly kinda was pre-time skip in all routes, not just Crimson Flower. And was, as I keep harping on,an extraordinarily successful one.You know you’re good at this when you’ve got your “iron fist in the velvet glove”routine down so well that anyone who tries to call you out as a tyrant isimmediately denounced by everyone else as a heretic.

[butwhatifidothis]

Can't STAND these bitches in the fandom whining about "Wah, Rhea didn't wanna let go of power, she endangered the students by never revealing the truth of anything to them" and then turn around and fuckin' GUSH about how ~brave~ and ~daring~ Edelgard is for ~standing up against Rhea~ by doing THE EXACT. SAME. SHIT.

Edelgard never told her allies about TWS and thus they were ill-prepared for them when the post-game war came about. You can tell that no one was prepared for the war because so fuckin' many endings Byleth has in CF has it say that their marriage with the person they get with was immediately followed by the war against TWS. The other characters were literally never told once about their existence and Edelgard expected everyone to throw themselves into this war she never told them would happen, after already finishing a war she'd already forced on them. Run it back guys! Edelgard's War That She Makes Everyone Go Through Without Their Prior Knowledge Or Consent Part 2: Electric Boogaloo!

Edelgard stripped every noble that stood against her of almost any power they had and only nobles that at that moment stood against her got that treatment. Counts Bergliez and Hevring were equally involved in the Insurrection of the Seven - that thing that revealed Vestra, Varley, and Aegir as "corrupt" in Edelgard and Hubert's eyes - but since they choose at that moment to stand by Edelgard they're suddenly not corrupt anymore - they "earned forgiveness". As long as they never go against Edelgard - i.e., threaten her hold on power - then they are cured of their supposed corruptness. How convenient for Edelgard, that that's how that works! Suddenly Bergliez and Hevring are totally good guys and all it took was them bending the knee to her, how lovely. Also, see Acheron.

Everyone expects Rhea to just fuckin' spill the beans of everything right away as if that exact thing didn't fuckin' lead to the near extinction of her race. As if humans knowing everything the Nabateans know didn't almost lead to the permanent ruination of all of Fodlan. And then they pull excuse after excuse after excuse out of their asses for why Edelgard was so much better for all the shitty things she did. They pin all the blame on Rhea for Edelgard's actions, because I guess Edelgard isn't a grown ass woman who's capable of making her own independent decisions. She can never be blamed for her actions, no, someone else is always at fault, but Rhea can and should be completely and solely responsible for the decisions she makes.

Nothing can influence her decisions. No outside force made her think her actions, morally questionable they can be, are the best course. Nah chief, it's her being just fuckin' evil that was the reason she did what she did. Rhea's bad for secrets, but not Edelgard! Even though her secrets involved hiding the existence of two incoming wars that she was planning on spearheading- that's fine! Rhea is bad for wanting to hand the reigns over to someone specifically, but Edelgard wanting a successor worthy of her bloody throne is something to be admired. Just look over the fact that this person almost certainly cannot be someone who came from the people, and that it's almost definitely someone deemed worthy by Edelgard, from the elite social circles, with connections to Edelgard and/or other powerful people, with the best tutors and the perfect environment, and an already surefire shot at success already. See, Rhea's means were more morally questionable, so that means Edelgard is squeaky clean!

Who cares that there is literally no fuckin' way the weak aren't gonna be fuckin' trampled under the boots of the stron- oopsy daisy, I meant "meritable". Who cares that the literal one person in BE that could even possibly be considered someone who defies this is someone who 1) admits herself that she had to "pull some noble strings" to have a chance at paying the fees - oh, yeah, because you know who thrives under a meritocracy? Bitches with no money, for sure!! - and 2) is the only BE to not be appointed general post ts. Who cares that the weak have gotten persecuted and exiled under Edelgard's reign if they believed in the wrong faith, and who cares if any faithful in Edelgard's Fodlan have to cope with the loss of a foundational support system of theirs - just be strong! Just be good! It's just that easy amiright guys

And like... look, I honestly wouldn't care about people raggin' Rhea so hard about what she's done if it existed in a vacuum. She's done some questionable shit! Shit that could very easily warrant disdain! But it's when it's coupled with the fact that I know these people will go on to praise Edelgard and love her despite her doing equally morally questionable actions that peeves me off so much. Edelgard deadass started a war that lasted five years! She starved her citizens to have more food for her men! Men of whom some of which are forced to be there! She uses meat shields in AM and VW just like Rhea does in CF! She lets her citizens be turned into Demonic Beasts for her to use as war assets! She hides shit that people oughta know just like Rhea does!

But people wanna ignore that, just like they ignore Rhea just having the Church fuckin' off away from Adrestia 120 years before the game even starts, and how Faerghus definitely has a unique view on religion that doesn't align that perfectly with the Seiros faith, and how the Eastern Church might as well don't real for all the power it has, and how it's Rhea and the Church that is dealing with all of the issues in the game and not, oh, I dunno, the nations the problems are set in (with the only possible reasonable exception being Faerghus, because of Edelgard's allies) - fuck all that I guess!

Rhea's power hungry and Edelgard "just NeEdS all that power guys!!" and Rhea's bad for holding secrets and Edelgard is FoRcEd to keep the literal cause of all of Fodlan's problems hidden from literally almost everyone and Rhea should be held solely accountable for every single one of her actions and Edelgard shouldn't because others MaDe hEr Do iT